She Worked for Pope Francis, Left Religious Life, and Built a Life She Actually Loves

🎧 In this episode of The LIVing Room, Liv Harrison sits down with Marilis Piñeiro, former religious sister, Vatican insider, and the woman behind Ex Nun on the Run, for a conversation that covers convent life, conclave chaos, singleness, hot takes, and what it actually looks like to build a life you love on your own terms. Marillis tells the story of working alongside Pope Francis during his 2015 US visit, including the moment she accidentally told him to go to bed (he meant the next dinner course). 

If you've ever wrestled with vocation, boundaries, singleness, or what it means to live with both courage and peace, this one's for you.

⭐️ Guest Bio

Marilis Piñeiro is a former religious sister who spent almost nine years in the convent and three years working for the Vatican, including during Pope Francis's 2015 apostolic visit to the United States. She's the voice behind Ex Nun on the Run, where she shares honest conversations about faith, singleness, boundaries, and navigating life after religious life. She currently lives in Italy and co-hosts a podcast on Catholic singleness with her friend Gabrielle.

👉 Links

✅ Connect with Marilis Piñeiro: 

https://www.instagram.com/exnunontherun/

✅ Follow Liv Harrison: 

https://instagram.com/@livharrison

🗒️ In This Episode

00:00 What "Normal" Looks Like After Rome Jubilee
01:25 Conclave 2025 
05:52 Telling Pope Francis to Go to Bed
10:00 Hot Takes and Travel Stories
11:15 Catholic Social Teaching Doesn't Pick a Party
14:30 The Courage to Speak Up
16:10 Leaving the Convent: Almost Nine Years In
19:20 Rebuilding a Prayer Life After Hurt and Anger
22:10 Why She Started a Podcast About Being Single 
24:50 "I'm Not Dying to Get Married"
28:30 Bare Minimum Men and Fulton Sheen 
32:20 Vulnerability With Boundaries
36:10 How to Pray for Marilis

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I've gotten to hear a couple of your Pope Francis stories, but what's a really fun one?

SPEAKER_02 0:04

I mean, I think my favorite one is probably when I told him to go to bed. I was in the convent almost nine years. It was getting to be close for me to be taking my final vows. At one point, he turns and he goes, What's next? And I'm like, excuse me? They'd all be on their phones smoking their cigarettes. I'd be like, You're going to bed, you're going to bed, I'm going to bed, everybody over here is going to bed. We would have to write a letter to Mother Superior to say, I would like to ask to read you my vows. Even writing my letter, I was like, uh, I don't know about this. I didn't know what was to come. I didn't have a job. I didn't have clothes because we wore the habit. I didn't have a bank account. And I think this is very much who I am. Like, if I can't be fully true to myself, then I can't do it. And because I felt like I wasn't being true to myself, I'm not on social media for the numbers. I feel very free in speaking up about these issues. And funnily enough.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

The last time you were in Italy living there was the Jubilee. Is it different now that that is over? Like, is it more chill?

SPEAKER_02 1:45

It's back to normal.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

What does that mean? What does normal in Italy mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:50

This time of year, typically January, February, are very quiet months. And when I first got back, I was like, why are there no people? For me, you know what I mean? It's like, why are there no people? I thought maybe it's because of the rain. You know, it was it's been super rainy. No one's around. And then I it hit me the other day when I was walking around. I thought, oh, it's February. This is the off season. And it's not the Jubilee anymore. So we're back to normal.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Back to normal.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

You know, restaurants, I guess like the more local spots are not as um crowded, you know, maybe just a few people, lots of open tables. I was like, wow, there's no one around. And then again, it's because it's February. So and last time I was here was during the conclave, which was Jubilee on steroids, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

We got to do the conclave together. We were and uh we got matching tattoos uh for the con there you go for the conclave. It was unbelievable. I gotta say, of all the things that you have experienced in Rome, how did the conclave compare to other big events?

SPEAKER_02 3:00

This was the top.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

This was it?

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Yeah, this was it. This was it. I uh yeah, of all any event in Rome. I'd never been to a conclave before. I remember when Pope Benedict was elected-ish. I mean, I think I was I was in high school, so I wasn't as invested in church events, you know. No, actually, sorry, I take that back. No, yes, I Francis was my first, like the one, my first conclave that I paid attention to. And by the time Pope Francis was elected, I was already in the convent. So didn't really pay attention to Pope Benedict. I was like, I don't really care. Then Pope Francis came around when he was elected. It was like Christmas at the convent. We had dessert. Like we would only ever have dessert on feast days, and we had dessert when he was made pope.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

I wouldn't get all t-shirts for nuns to wear. You know, we had dessert conclave 22 years.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Like I was like, this is like a feast day. Um we were like hugging each other, we're jumping up and down watching the TV, you know, when the white smoke came, but nothing compares to actually having been in the square. And I think too, even because I had a closeness with Pope Francis beyond just him being the Pope, you know, having gotten to work with him, it was bittersweet when he passed away. And the church being empty, like, I don't know about you, but it really I felt it. Like I felt we are fatherless right now. And so then the minute the white smoke came, it was like the shock of we are no longer orphans. Like that was the first thing that came to mind. And then when they announced who it was, I was like, wait, I'm pretty sure he's American.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

And then sure enough, and it just, I mean, we were freaking out.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Like we lost our minds.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

I did not have a voice for days after that.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

And it was so fun. It was so fun. We were in the front row, which no, yeah, like we were right behind the press. So we had a front row seat to seeing Pope Leo, and we felt it was love at first sight. I know you're you know, this beautiful single Catholic woman, and you're very open about your singleness and loving it. But I gotta say, I think you're madly in love with Pope Leo. I think that was love at first sight.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

I take it personally when people talk badly about him.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Like, don't you even start.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

That's my man. Listen.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

You know? And then just, I don't know, just the unity in the church. Like, we had, you know, our group of people, we had Gabrielle, our friend of ours, had brought that huge American flag because she's she's Texan. That's what she does. She goes to any event. I've known this girl for years, any big event. She brings the flag. I don't know why, but there was no more appropriate time than when she had the, she just brings this huge flag out. And remember, our group, we were like jumping up and down with it. So then, of course, the entire press like surrounds us. And then Mountain starts chanting, you was the you was I just was like, yes, like, you know. And then we go out for dinner. We were out. You and I were out to like five in the morning. We were out with a group of people, like with priests.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

We were having a good we have a really we have a place that we love, wisdomless. That's where we like to get tattoos and stuff, but it's also a speakeasy.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Yeah. And owned by a devout Catholic. It's owned by a devout Catholic. It's a cool vibe.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Yeah. Yeah. We love that place in room. So yeah, we were down in the basement part. They let us in the in the lower part that night. And we celebrated. It was so rad.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

It was so much fun. A friend of mine that that was with us, she had recently just reverted back to the church. And on our way home, she goes, Is this what you Catholics do? I was like, Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Welcome home. Welcome home.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Welcome home.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

I love it. So with with Pope Francis, what is uh you you did interact with him quite a bit, actually. Yeah. You know, more than what I think people think or understand. Because when you were in the convent, you were in Rome for what, three years as a sister?

SPEAKER_02 7:24

I worked for the Vatican for three years. I was physically in Rome for a year.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Oh, okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

But that I was at the Vatican Embassy in DC for a total, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

That makes sense. So what is a what is a great? I've gotten to hear a couple of your Pope Francis stories, but what's a really fun one? Like uh, is there one that you don't share often or one that that you have shared that just showed his personality or kind of just captured who he was or the relationship that you had with him?

SPEAKER_02 7:52

I mean, I think my favorite one is probably when I told him to go to bed.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Wait, you gotta tell that story, Mary.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

So I was exhausted. Okay. I I was running, I mean, I run on little sleep now. I think because of my years in religious life, like sleep was just not something that was a privilege. Um to us sisters, we got up every morning at 4:30, regardless of when we went to bed. So typically, like our bedtime was 9 30, but that specific assignment for us, like if you were at the Nuncha Tour, it was like, you know, we'd have events and things. So we would go to bed very late sometimes. But this specific event with him was during the Apostolic Visit when he came to the United States. And that was 2015. September of 2015. Yeah. Wow. So I was exhausted, you know, like this had been almost a year of preparation. And then finally he's in the US, we're traveling, and I forget what we had done that day, but his days were packed during an apostolic visit, you know, whether it was events, meetings, going to see people. This visit, he also canonized Saint Uniparo Sarah. So that was also like very on top of already, yeah, on top of already planning an apostolic visit, there was a canonization that took place. And it was also during the world meeting for families in Philadelphia. So there was just a lot, a lot that they packed into this trip. So I forget exactly what he had done this day. And typically when he would go out, like I would stay home and be working on other things. Um and so we were having dinner, and you know, Italian dinner is like 9 p.m. I was exhausted.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Girl, we're in bed at nine. Like we're gonna go to the body.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Yeah, like I was I was so tired. And at one point he turns and I'm to his right and he goes, What's next? And I'm like, Excuse me. And he goes, What's next? And I was like, bed. You're going to bed. And then I started going around the table, you're going to bed. Like to his um his entourage. Typically, it would be like the nuncio, the nuncio's first secretary, and then just his security that would be eating with him. They'd all be on their phones smoking their cigarettes, and I'd be like, You're going to bed, you're going to bed, I'm going to bed. Everybody over here is going to bed. And he starts chuckling. And then it made me more mad. He started laughing. I was like, what is so funny? And he goes, I meant the next course. I was so, I was like, ugh, you know? And there was a sister, one of my former sisters' sister, Christina, God bless her. She's watching from the like, not the kitchen, but where they would be bringing the food in, watching like from the glass at the door, like jaw on the ground. Because she heard this entire interaction. And I was just like, oops, fish is next. Like, that's the next course is fish. That's what he ate almost every night.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Oh Mary.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Yeah. But I was so, I remember being so like, what do you mean what's next?

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Oh, we're done. I love it. Meryless, you kill me. I just, you, I tell you what, um, I had the privilege of of traveling the Holy Land with you. What we do is we travel together. We're like travel friends. I don't think we've ever been like in real life friends. We just vague, I don't know what we do.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

I've never really even been in the U.S. with you besides New York.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yeah, which that's like an imaginary place. So but uh we went to Jordan and the Holy Land, and your mom came on that trip. Yes. And anybody who follows you on the internet, they're going to see your mom because she is your favorite person on the planet. And I just have to say, as someone who loves you and loves both of you to pieces, girl, you are an apple that just rolled down that apple tree. Like you are just you are so sweet. And the funny stories that you get yourself into is just hysterical. One of the things that you also do online is you're all about the hot take. You don't shy away from putting it out there, which is what I love. I want to hear a hot take that you have that you haven't shared. Because we get to hear you're very, I know you probably have shared them all, but you probably have. You don't hold back. That is true. That is fair. What are some of the ones? Okay, if if it since you do share so much, what are some hot takes that have gotten you in the most hot water with with your audience? That like maybe either you lost a ton of people or you got a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

I mean, usually usually like my political hot takes, probably.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Really?

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

That's what you get the most flack.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Yes. I think especially just with the current situation in the United States. Um and I've noticed this, I think, more since living abroad. But I think in the US, we're very kind of tunnel vision with how we see things. So if where I align politically only sees things one way, I therefore cannot agree with something that m the other party might support. You know, like give me immigration is a perfect example right now with everything that's happening with um, I mean, the immigration crisis in the United States has been going on for years and years and years, but how it's being handled right now has is to another level. But because to be pro-immigration or to to stand for the migrant is considered a more Democrat or blue issue. Therefore, as a Republican, for me to speak up about what's happening and not side with the current administration would be like wrong, essentially. And I'm like, you know, for me, I've always thought and seen things very much of the side of the oppressed. So, and very much like my faith is what guides my moral compass. So it's always, what does the church have to say about this issue? And then like I follow that thread. And the church is always the church has never been Republican, Democrat, whatever, you know, blue, red, like it's always stood for the human person and to uphold the dignity of the human person, regardless of who they are, where they come from, what color they are, you know, like all the things. And because I have no problem speaking up about issues that I feel passionate about, and I'm not on social media for the numbers, I feel very free in speaking up about these issues. And funnily enough, yeah, I get probably the most kickback or pushback um on these issues when I speak, I guess, contrary to what typically my audience is used to.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Right. No, that makes sense. I thought you were gonna say MLMs.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

I thought Oh my gosh. Don't get me started.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

I love I love you and a good MLM. I love too funny. No, I uh that we we could talk about that all day because we end up talking about it a lot. We were talking about it the other day, actually. Um so yeah, so politically, no, yes. You and you're so brave. Where do you get your your like where do you get your courage? Is it is it from your mom? Is it from being a New Yorker? Is it just what Jesus put inside of you when he made you? Where is this coming from?

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Yeah, I actually it has to be from the Lord because my mom is the most non-confrontational human. Like she gets when I get worked up about something, she gets nervous. Or if she watches like my socials, which she always does on mute for whatever reason because she doesn't know how to use her phone, but she sees my facial expressions, she sees, you know, she goes all there, she goes talking again. You know, she's like, oh no, what is she saying?

SPEAKER_03 16:40

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

But um, I yeah, I don't, I think it's just like some something that when the Lord created me, he was like, She's gonna because I've tried to simmer it down, you know what I mean? I've tried to simmer it down, or like in religious life, I mean my superior would take me aside, you know, with issues, especially like the scandals in the church. I'd get so worked up about it. And and she would be like, you know, you don't need to say what you're thinking. And I'd be like, Yes, I do. I absolutely do.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

I love it, I love it. Yeah, well, and that's why you're the ex-nun on the run. I mean, that's why you have this handle that is everyone's like, wait, what? Like it already is a scandal. Like, she's a nun and she's on the run. Like, it's just like it's a perfect way to introduce you to an audience, especially to someone that doesn't know you, Mir. With the whole religious life. Yes. I know that you've been very open about there, was uh there's a lot of I and I'm trying to say this in a good way, not not to be politically correct, but to honor what it is that you believe about religious life. But there's a lot that we don't know on the on the as the laity that happens behind the doors. And you've been pretty open about that. What when I I is probably a better way to say this, when did you decide this is not for me? I can't do this. Like, how did you move whatever fear was keeping you there? Because I'm imagining it was fearful to leave.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Yeah, it was very much.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Yeah, so what how did you how did you handle that fear to finally walk away?

SPEAKER_02 18:31

Yeah, so I was in the convent almost nine years, and it was getting to be close for me to be taking my final vows. I was probably a year, just about a year away from final vows. And I remember just always telling myself, I'm not gonna make final vows unless I'm like a thousand percent on board. And I think as the time drew closer for me to even renew my vows, because I was gonna be re we renewed our vows every year in my community. Every community does it differently, but we renewed ours every year. And even writing the letter, because we would have to write a letter to Mother Superior to say, I would like to ask to renew my vows. Even writing my letter, I was like, uh, I don't know about this, you know. And I think it just came to the point of, and I think this is very much who I am. Like, if I can't be fully true to myself, then I can't do it. And because I felt like I wasn't being true to myself, that outweighed any fears of leaving, you know? Um, and with that came so much peace. Like when you are living in truth, there is peace with that. And even though I didn't know what was to come, I didn't have a job, I didn't have clothes because we wore the habit, I didn't have a bank account. I and I entered the convent. I was 19 when I entered, so I don't know how to be an adult in the world. I still don't know how to be an adult in the world. Uh but you know, all these the responsibilities like taxes, what are those? You know? Um all these scary things of like what I felt like the world was for somebody to have to go back after almost a decade really of being out of it. I just was like, I need to trust this piece. Um, and that really was the the push I needed to be able to walk away.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Yeah, that makes sense. How how does one transition from a life of very much centered in prayer? Because I know how prayerful you are, but you're not in a convent anymore. Right. So I imagine it's not quite, you know, the same. Was that something that you had to get over? Like with yourself, like, am I praying enough? Am I not praying? You know, because like I deal with that, and I'm just here in Texas, you know what I mean? I'm just a mom. So how do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Yeah, I mean, you know, actually, like the first three months after I left, I just was so hurt and angry that I did I just stopped praying. Like I was still praying, but I stopped going to mass. I wasn't receiving the sacraments, I just was angry and hurt. I was very hurt, you know? And so that lasted like maybe three months max because I just felt such a part of me missing and I missed, like I missed praying. I missed the mass. Um and so I got over that real quick. I know I've talked to other ex-sisters or even former priests who go through the same thing. So I'm like, I know it's not unusual, but um, as far as what my prayer looks like now, I it's probably not too different from kind of the schedule I had as a sister because I am a single woman with no children. So, you know, getting to mass every day, getting, you know, my rosary in every day, I don't have all These other responsi I work remotely too, you know, so it's like I don't have all these other responsibilities that would distract me from getting a normal prayer life be a part of my everyday. Yeah. Um I would say probably the one thing that I don't do anymore that I did in the convent, that we we prayed every day in the convent was the stations of the cross. But otherwise, I still do my holy hour, I still go to daily mass, I still pray the divine office, which is the liturgy of the hours. Um, though I don't pray all of them like we used to, I just do morning and evening now. So that's amazing. I think for the most part, and because I do live alone, like there is a lot of silence I'm still able to foster in my life um that we had in the convent. I mean, these sisters are bizay, like they, you know, there's not, I think most people think that like you're in the convent and all you're doing is praying. But there are actually times when I felt like I am working too much. Like I entered the convent to be able to pray. I would say to my superior, I was like, I don't, I don't even get my prayers in. And she was like, Yeah, that's what it's like here sometimes. Like, well, I entered to pray, not to, you know, do all these other work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

That's so that's interesting that that was such a that is such a big misconception that we have that you're just sitting around praying all day and that's all you do. And um, so you're also really vocal about being single. And I'm I love that you brought it up because you have a podcast about being single with our friend that you spoke about earlier who brought the American flag. Um and so I I have like so many multiple questions I want to ask you. Let me start with this. Why did you decide of all the things, Mayor, that you could talk about? Because you talk about a lot of things, friend. I love you, but you were like, here's my list, and it's a scroll. Um of all the things to start a podcast on, why being single? Why was that what called to your heart? I need to talk about being a single woman, especially as a Catholic.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Well, as like most things, it's usually because something happens that then I'm like, I'm not putting up with that. And pretty much it was because I was invited to a wedding and wasn't given a plus one. That's a hot take. That could be a hot take.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

That's ridiculous. And I just am like ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

I'm 32. So I'm like, we're in our 30s. Like I feel like if you're gonna marry at, I don't know, in your 20s, you're out of college, you don't have a lot of money. Like, I can see the not giving somebody a plus one, but I was the only person without a plus one, you know? And I had said something to her like, I don't want to have to pay for a flight across the country. The hotel where we were, she had booked the venue, was so expensive. And I just was like, I'd rather go on a trip. So I decided to go to Mexico instead with the money that I would have spent on the wedding. And I called, who do I know? You're like, you know, like I knew there are like two people I call when I want to go on a trip if I don't want to go solo, and it's either you or Gabby. You know, either you or Gabrielle. I love that. I just out of the blue texted Gabrielle, I was like, any chance you want to go to Mexico next week? And she goes, she said yeah. She goes, let me check my work schedule. And she goes, actually, yeah, I can swing it. And so we booked everything last. I'm pretty sure I asked you too.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

It's like, no, I was like, I was this close to coming, but I was getting over pneumonia. Yeah. Yeah, I almost went to Mexico with you. I know. I'm the one married friend that is like, sure, I act like I'm I'm ridiculous. I'm Carrie Bradshaw in my own marriage. I just act like I can just go tromp around wherever I want, which uh I do. But so let me ask you this. Let me you decide to do, you know, you're with Gabrielle, you're in Mexico, you're both single, you're both Catholic. Yes. What is it that we're getting wrong about singles? About, you know, like what is a hot take or what is a misconception that people who aren't single have about you guys?

SPEAKER_02 26:25

I think they think that I'm like dying to get married, that I'm lonely, that I am, you know, just waiting and pining to get married. And I'm like, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I, you know, of course I'm open to a man waltzing into my life and you know, sweeping me off my feet, but I'm also not gonna be waiting around for him to come to live my life. I have a very full life. I love really everything I do, I I tell people all the time, like this is I have reached my peak. Like this is it, you know? Um, and so it's just like if I meet somebody that I'd want to marry, he would need to be incredible. Like I just can't imagine feeding all this in, you know? I you know what I mean? Like, I don't feel like there's not a void missing that I feel like needs to be filled. Like he would really just be like a beautiful addition to my already beautiful life. And so, you know, do I want to get married someday? Sure, but am I like banking on it happening? Am I dying for it to happen? Not really.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

You're so cute. I love that though. I love that you put out this energy of, hey, look, I'm fulfilled. I don't need another person to complete me. It's the opposite of of what you know Tom Cruise told us in uh Jerry McGuire, you know, you complete me. You are complete. You are whole.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

I am complete.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what your message is, is that you're getting out. All right. How's the feedback with the with the podcast?

SPEAKER_02 28:12

It's been going it's really well. We just finished our first season. We launch our second season actually on Valentine's Day. And Gabrielle is the same way. She's also, we're around the same age. She travels, she has a beautiful life. She bought a house, you know, all these things that people kind of wait to do until they're married. We both just very much are like, why? Why don't I why can't I build a beautiful life now?

SPEAKER_03 28:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

And um foster who I am as a person so that if I do get married, I'm as whole and healthy as possible for my husband, you know?

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

And that's very much Gabrielle's mentality as well. And so we've talked about everything from um like our first episode for season two is about the bare minimum, you know, to age gaps, to solo travel, to um red flags that we have noticed in dating, to dating misconceptions for women our age or, you know, like all varying topics. And I think because Gabby and I are the only two single women in our circle of friends that people are just like, I know a guy. I'm like, okay, tell me about him. And they list off all these loser qualities. And I'm like, why would I want that? Just because I'm single? Like, no, absolutely not. Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Yeah, talk about the bare minimum because you do have a set. We were we had a nice little conversation on DMs about there was something going around on online that was, do you remember that? That was like, Yes, here's all the stuff, and you're like, no, no, no, no, no. That's that's bare minimum. That doesn't make him amazing. What are some of those things that that you think because these are hot tapes too, Mare, of like, no, this is this is expected. This is not, this is not extraordinary.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Yeah. So I'll have friends, or again, there was an influencer online that was, you know, elated. She had met a guy, which I'm always excited, like I am the most romantic, unromantic person I know.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

You are. That's a perfect way to describe it.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

I love seeing my friends in love. I love like weddings are some of my favorite things to go to. I've helped my friends now husbands plan their engagements. You know what I mean? Like, I'm all about that. Um, but I've had friends be like, I met a guy. I'm like, great, tell me about him. They're like, he opens the door for me and he pays for dinner and he we we pray together. And I'm like, okay, like that should be a minimum. That is the bare minimum. And I think because dating in today's day and age has we just have such low standards, and many of us have had horrible dating experiences that when we meet a nice guy, when we meet a gentleman, you're like, he is the moon, stars, sky. You know what I mean? Like he is perfect because he, you know, opens the car door for me and check will communicate well and is emotionally available. And I'm like, that's that's normal. Like that should be the norm. Um, and so yeah, I think because we've so lowered the standard that the bare minimum has become the goal. Whereas the bare minimum should be like the standard and there should be he as the man, I'm very much like see things as like he should pursue you, especially when you're dating. Um, a woman should be pursued. And you know, the whole provider thing, like if we want that, if we want to aspire to that, he needs to be exceeding bare minimum. Umulton Sheen has a quote that I love where he talks about how women set the standard and men rise to meet it. And I think because we've so lowered the standard that men have the bare minimum is really low.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

No, that's fair. That's a great quote, by the way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

I tell you all the time, like Nathan, to me, constant examples of a non-bare minimum man. Like he exceeds bare minimum. But I don't just say that to blow sunshine. Like, I would never say that if I didn't actually think it.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Uh you're not a sunshine blower. I am. That's what makes us so great. We are so opposite. I'm like, sunshine out of my mouth. And you're like, and no, live. Like be real. No, he is. He is amazing and he does exceed bare minimum. And I love that my girlfriends who are single can see, no, they're out there, like, you know, and you deserve a husband that is going to do all these things and be there.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

And that's so many examples.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Yeah, you have a lot of good examples. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Yeah. Even just, you know, my my stepdad, but even just my guy friends who have gone above and beyond for women while they were dating, before they, you know, I know it's not just like a husband thing. I know that single men are capable of this.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

I I believe in you.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

You're so cute. So, one thing that I kind of want to end on is I think what's really interesting about you, Mare, is that I don't know how you do it. I really don't. You walk this line of being very open, real, vulnerable, and you know, just yourself. Yet you are the most private friend I have. Like, it is bizarre, right? Like, I mean, you will be like, hey, I'm in Saudi Arabia. And I'm like, I'm sorry, what are you saying right now? I'm like, what do you mean you're in Saudi Arabia? We were literally talking yesterday, and what are you talking about? You keep your life very under wraps. Like, I consider myself one of your closest friends, you're one of my closest girlfriends.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Yeah, I say the same.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

I have no idea what you do for a living. Like, I have no idea what your job is or where you're going. How do you navigate that? How are you like what is some tangible advice, especially with you know the way that that social media is, being a vulnerable, vulnerable person, being true to yourself, but keeping that privacy, keeping, you know, certain things to yourself.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Yeah, I think, I mean, you've heard me talk about boundaries constantly. That's one of my favorite topics, because I I do find that we live in a very boundaryless society, especially with social media. Everything is out there, and people just share very intimate details about their lives. I've always been on the more private side, even without social media. I think as a child, even my mom would be like, you don't tell me what you're thinking, what you're feeling. I've always just felt the need to kind of keep things to myself, probably because I'm also an internal processor. Um I just don't think we need to share every detail about our lives to the world and really to, you know, like our friends necessarily. I would say you're one of my closest friends too. But there are just some things that I feel like need to be kept to myself. And so I make, you know, very intentional decisions about what I share with people and who I share them with. And then the internet for me is just like I just I never share my family unless it's my mom because she's darling.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Hilarious.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Um, but you will never see my siblings. People think I'm an only child. I'm like, no, I've got siblings. Um, you'll never see my job. Again, it's not like I'm secretive about it, but I just don't feel the need to share that on the internet. And I think there are ways of being able to share some things without needing to go into intimate details about every little thing. You know what I mean? So just for example, on my Substack, I wrote an article most recently about anticipatory grief because it's something I've been really grappling with. And so to be vulnerable with my audience and say, this is something that's been really hard for me, but I don't need to go into details with you about what's led to that, what's going on behind the scenes with my family that's, you know, having me think about end-of-life things with my parents. You know what I mean? Um, we don't need to go into the nitty-bitty details with that, and um, still being able to get your message across about what you want to share.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

Yeah. You navigate that better than anybody I know for sure. You really do. And you teach me because I am the boundary list, I am a human golden doodle, which I say all the time to people, and and you are like you're a bulldog. It's fantastic. You would, you know, you're just adorable and stand your own ground. And I just really admire that about you. So uh one last thing, so we can close up and you can go live your amazing single life with your adorable dog Romeo. And if you're not following Romeo, I don't know what you're doing, but um, he's the cutest thing on the planet. How can we be praying for you, Mare? Like what in your life right now needs specific prayer? How can people come to you in that way?

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Um, you know, I really, my personal intentions, I'm very grateful. I'm so blessed to have really everything I could want and need in my life. I always ask for prayers, though, on behalf of those who have nobody to pray for them. And then for those who are living through just the various disasters going on in the world, my heart is really with the people of Palestine, for example. I these are always my list. I feel like with you too, Liv, when you ask me, I'm like, pray for the Palestinians, pray for the Uyghurs, pray for, you know, those going through war, genocide, religious persecution. Like they, my heart is just always with them. So the more prayers that can be prayed for them, the better.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Um, yeah, I love that. No, you keep us, you keep me politically uh grounded. And I know I love that you pray for these people because here's the thing in a way, that's how kind of how you evangelize by letting people know, like, hey, here's a group of people that needs your prayer. And then you've made me go, hmm, I wonder why Mayor is always saying this group of people is, you know, and you make you encourage me and you inspire me to go and learn more about them. So, yes, pray for Palestine. We were there together, and it's yeah, beautiful people, and we love them dearly. Uh, friend, I love you to pieces. I could talk to you all day long. I can't wait to see you whenever I see you. I thank you so much for your time.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Always. Bye, friend.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Bye.