From Federal Prosecutor to "Just His Beloved": Nell's Identity Overhaul at 43

🤍 She was a federal law clerk in Vegas, a managing editor of Law Review, and a prosecutor — and she drove home one morning drenched in spit-up thinking, who am I? Nell O'Leary spent decades performing her way through life until a daughter's mysterious illness, the collapse of a ministry, and a silent retreat stripped everything away and left her with one answer: beloved.

In this episode of The LIVing Room, Liv Harrison and Nell cover the identity crisis hiding inside early motherhood, what it actually feels like to enter silence when you have the gift of gab, how Nell's marriage deepened when she finally understood her husband's prayer life — and the Catholic mommy wars nobody wants to admit are real. If you've ever felt like you are what you accomplish, this one is for you.

Guest Bio:

Nell O'Leary is a Catholic writer, speaker, and ministry consultant based in St. Paul, Minnesota. A former federal law clerk and prosecutor, she went on to spend nearly a decade in women's ministry before transitioning to freelance consulting, writing, and speaking for Catholic organizations. She contributed to or edited over 50 books, wrote the prayers for Ascension's 2026 planner, and is currently finishing her first solo book with a mainstream publisher. Nell and her husband Anthony have five children.

In This Episode

00:00  Welcome — Nell and Liv in the Living Room

01:30  What Nell's life looks like online (and why it works)

02:15  18-year-old Nell: poetry, horses, and zero plan

03:45  How a love of show jumping led to law school

04:30  Ave Maria Law School and meeting her husband

05:45  The Vegas clerk era — dry cleaning and federal judges

06:30  Liv's origin story: kindergarten teacher to podcaster

07:45  The identity crash of early motherhood

09:30  Dropping her husband at a big law firm, covered in spit-up

11:00  "You are not what you do" — the Nazareth years

12:15  The thread connecting law, ministry, and storytelling

13:30  Nell's Substack and a first book she can almost announce

14:30  Learning when things are for the internet — and when they're not

15:15  "Who are you at 43?" — the identity question

16:00  What "I'm his beloved" actually cost her to believe

17:30  When her daughter got sick and she stepped away from everything

18:30  The 30-week Ignatian retreat — what it is and how it works

20:30  The first third: accepting that she was worth God's time

21:30  The middle third: imaginative prayer she didn't expect

22:15  The last third: real silence, and finding God in it

23:30  "Just turn your face" — what silence looks like now

25:30  Turning toward God all day long, not just in a prayer room

27:00  Nell's love story: two attorneys, law school, Nebraska

28:30  Her husband — ex-seminarian, former hermit, most patient man

30:00  How the retreat finally helped her understand her husband's prayer life

32:00  The strongest years of their marriage — and the hardest

33:30  Sending your spouse on silent retreat (even with five kids)

35:30  The evolution of arguments across 17 years of marriage

37:00  Choosing your family's life over your individual preferences

39:00  Female friendship: the good, the painful, the evaporated besties

41:30  Realistic expectations as a love language

43:00  Catholic mommy wars: beeswax candles, home births, and judgment

45:30  "Is your baby alive? Great." — on not policing other women

47:15  How can we pray for Nell?

⚡ Subscribe on YouTube!
⚡ Visit Liv on the web at: https://www.thelivharrison.com/
⚡ Follow Liv on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelivharrison/
⚡ Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and more!
⚡ Subscribe to Liv's newsletter: https://bit.ly/livnewsletter

#thelivingroom #livharrison #catholicshow #catholicyoutube #catholicpodcast #wherefaithfeelshuman

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I remember that transition of identity being like just driving back on the freeway, like soaked in milk and spit up and like seeing all these women on my way back being like, she's got heels on and a latte, and she's a professional woman, and I'm like a dumpster fire of a human being. I was the managing editor of the Larvee, and I clerked for Federgen. I'm so smart, I'm a lawyer too. I really thought I was what I did and what I accomplished. Or thinking I was who loved me or how they loved me, and realizing that when everything is stripped away, I'm just his. I left working in women's ministry in December of 2022, and that was extremely hard. The rest of my life was really like to hell in a handbasket. My daughter's sick, and then I had a toddler at the time, and the other kids were going through stuff because my daughter was so sick. And then my guardian angel's like, turn your face. Just turn your face back toward him. And then you're in it with him. Just set your phone out and turn your face toward him. Versus like, I have to prep for this. You know, I wasn't in public ministry anymore. I didn't think I was worth somebody spending that time with. I was just a normal Midwest middle-aged mom of five, and why would anybody want to invest this time in me? You'd be like, well, I guess I've exhausted every other option. I've tried escapism, I've tried numbing myself, I've tried busying myself. I've tried everything else, Lord, and it's just you, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

So good to see you. Oh my god. No, you are the sweetest human on the planet. Like, I just want to bottle you into a glass jar and in a very creepy way, put you in my pocket and just take you out every now and then and let you breathe and let you say you say the kindest things. I just want to say you were you were the kindest soul on the internet that I know.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

It's easy to be kind to you. What I love that you bring to the internet, I mean, I love a lot of things you bring to the internet, Liv, but you bring such authenticity and you just bring yourself. And I think I'm tempted to show up online with filters. I'd love to look better or my house cleaner, or like I have really great insights to give. And I don't. And so when I look and see friends like you where you're sharing where you really are and what you're really up to, those are the influencers that we need. We don't need people who are telling us what to do. We need people who are just living their lives authentically in Christ. And that's that's the that's the guiding light to Jesus, not the chouse, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

But that's what you bring, Nell. Like you you do, and here's what's so cool. Like, okay, you started out your life in a very different path than where I think you are today, right? I mean, didn't you kind of think if if we were to talk to 18-year-old Nell and we were to say, This is where you're at today, would you be surprised?

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Yes. Oh my gosh. A little shocked and a little bit like, what happened?

SPEAKER_02 3:18

What poker game did you lose? No, you won. You're winning. That's the difference. Now you know this is what real winning is. Okay, so tell me, where were you, where were you at 18? Where were you as a young, a young spry lass? What was it that you wanted to be and do, and what were you gonna do with the world, my friend, when you came out with all the stars in your eyes?

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Yeah, I I went to the University of Minnesota to study creative writing. I loved poetry. My senior thesis in college was poet a poetry manuscript live.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

I loved and I loved horses.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

So I had horses and I did show jumping. I spent a lot of time at the barn. So between poetry and horses, I don't have either of those things. I mean, I I like poetry and I admire a horse when we drive past it. But I still have a house full of tack. I have like custom-made saddles and bridles rotting away in my basement because I can't get rid of them and we don't have horses in our lives. So yeah, English and and horses, and thought I would own a little hobby farm. And I don't know how I thought I would pay for the hobby farm being a poet. I think that's where I decided to go to law school because you know, people with MSAs aren't generally also horseback riders.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Doesn't really Yeah, those two don't normally go together. So, where did you go to law school?

SPEAKER_01 4:37

So did you go to law school? Yeah, I went to Ave Maria School of Law back when it was in Michigan. Now it's down there.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Yes, now it's in Florida.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

A couple years later, I could have been on the beach. Come on. But that's our.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Jeez, Tom Onahan.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

I know think ahead next time. My husband, I met I met him in law school. He's from Nebraska, which if you don't, if you're not from the Midwest, you're like, aren't all those Midwest states kind of the same?

SPEAKER_02 5:06

They're the same.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Kind of the same. And Nebraska's near Minnesota, but people in Minnesota love to stay in Minnesota. I think because Minneapolis, St. Paul is like four million people. It's a pretty big metropolitan area. It has like a tier two um, you know, uh art museum. We have like fantastic restaurants, like an incredible diversity and a natural immigrant population. Like there's a lot happening in the Twin City. I know in an international airport to boot.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Stop.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

So when we started dating, I was like, hey, if you really want to date me, I'm not moving to Nebraska. You know, it's all within us. So we met in Michigan and we did end up in Minnesota. But I and then I had a I had a kind of a way station there as a clerk for a federal judge out in Las Vegas live. That's a place No, you did not. You lived in Vegas? In Vegas, which everything is open 24 hours in Vegas. Like you're dry cleaning.

unknown 5:59

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Really?

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Places that you may or may not want to visit.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Well, you gotta listen, the feather boas have to get cleaned at some point. So I mean, it makes sense that you're gonna need a little sequencing needs to get a little shiny with the cleaners. That makes sense. I mean, you know. Right, you know, look, I spilt a little, I got a little schmooz on my on my sequence. I gotta go get it cleaned.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

People would be like, I love it. That was Vegas. And I was like, oh, I clerked for a federal judge. They're like, come on, what'd you really do in Vegas?

SPEAKER_02 6:37

I'm Taylor Swift. I'm the original show girl.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Yeah, and then we ended up back here in Minnesota, which is where I am now in the great. Yeah, and I I really didn't think all these things, yeah, these curving roads of like loving poetry and loving English, and then being a prosecutor, you know, and then working in women's ministry and now doing consulting for different Catholic ministries and writing and speaking. Definitely not at 43, where I thought, I mean, I don't know what I thought when I was 18, but I didn't, I didn't even know this part existed. I bet you feel that way too, Liv. Like you didn't know this life could exist. So you weren't dreaming about it because it it wasn't even on your radar.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

No, well, my radar was I wanted to be on Saturday Night Live. So I'm actually living in disappointment.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

But this is way better.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

I've got my own show. What am I talking about? I uh no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, no, I'm I'm with you. I was a kindergarten teacher, actually. So I got my degree in human development and I got a post specular in early childhood. And I think they just thought I was a really tall five-year-old who liked to play with play-doh. Like, I don't think they thought I was their teacher. I think they were like, well, the tall one will get the things, I guess. Who is that? She keeps telling us to get in a line. Um, because I really was like, this is so fun. It just they smelt like puppies, they acted like puppies, everyone had pee on their clothes. It was just very much, you know, you just threw crackers at them and taught them colors. It was very, all the parents that I taught their kids are in panic, right? As if they're listening to this podcast. But those kids are in their 30s now. They're fine. They've made it, they're all potty trained. Um, but yeah, no, so I did not think I would be here now. I did not, I thought I would be, you know, summers off for the rest of my life, and instead, uh, every day is off. I'm a lady of leisure.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Every day's on. You're like on pilgrimage, you're taking care of your jobs, taking your your your your daughter places, you're going to visit a missionary son, like you're such a supportive wife. Your husband has a very stressful stuff, and you're like right there to support him, which I think that's the underspoken parts of like women's lives that whether you're married or not, most of our time is spent supporting other people. Yes, it is a lot of bandwidth to be supporting and loving and present.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

It's true as we love. It's true. No, it is, and it's interesting, you know, as and and I think what's interesting about your story, Nell, is that you went into this. I mean, I don't know if you call lore law corporate, but I'm gonna go ahead and say that. So you start off in corporate or you start off in, you know, law, and you you transitioned into a life that is in your home, but you're still working, like you're still, you know, and you're doing you're doing all these beautiful things with your gifts and talents, but in a way that you didn't foresee. Where was God in that decision? Was he even a part of the decision to put your gifts and talents in in your four walls of your home?

SPEAKER_01 9:48

I think you know, the quieter I can be inside, the more I can sense his movement. I saw some people feel like God's speaking so loudly into their lives.

unknown 9:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

And you know, is like very, very, very much the cruise ship director. And I always admire them, thinking like, wow, you got the volume turned up, like your receivers turned on. And I think I'm such a loud person. God gets like really quiet so that I have to be quiet to hear, to hear his movement.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

You know, the transition from I remember uh dropping, okay, so I practiced law, then we got married. I was pregnant like four or five months into being married and continued to practice throughout my pregnancy, but was really, really sick. And it could kind of tell, like, I mean, I had options, my mom was willing to watch our oldest when he was born. You know, I had other ways to kind of have childcare, but between my husband being an attorney and me being attorney, we figured like one of we'd like one of us to be home when our kids are little. So I remember that transition of identity being like, I was the managing editor of the larv view and I clerk for Federal Gen. I'm so smart. I'm a lawyer too, and dropping my husband at his big law firm in downtown Minneapolis and driving back with a baby in the car and just driving back on the freeway, like soaked in milk and spit up and like my husband's dirty shirt, you know, and driving me like seeing all these women on my way back being like, she's got heels on and a latte, and she's like a professional woman, and I'm like a dumpster fire of a human being, just like driving back to my house, being like, Who am I? I really thought I was what I did and what I accomplished. So the Lord's movement in that was kind of like, hey, I'm gonna invite you to your Nazareth years where nobody knows and nobody cares what you're doing. No one's praising you, right? This is like the very beginning of mommy bloggers where we go online together and be like, the baby, spit up, what do I do? But really, it was just like, please, I need to connect with other moms because I'm in my home. I had three kids in four years, was kind of drowning in littles and had to learn like you're not what you do, you're not pleasing God based on how well you perform out in the world. Were you always performative, Nell?

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Were you always like even as okay, as a child, is that why you went into law? Because you're performing with your intelligence or performing with what you could accomplish?

SPEAKER_01 12:07

This is this is these are these great conversations where we get to kind of look back. I'm thinking, is that well, I'm definitely a people pleaser, which most attorneys are a little more aggressive than I am and like more conflict driven. I think I found it like to be with an English major, what can I do, practically speaking, that can support my horses? My desire to do like the most expensive hobby aside from cocaine.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

And I do you learn that in Vegas, I'm guessing. I'm just kidding. When I was at the dry cleaner with my while, you're at the dry cleaner with your feather boa, you learned that there was only one thing more expensive than your horses. Well, it's good to know. At least people are learning on the podcast, in case they have goals.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Cocaine. Um, but what I really liked about law, which actually, I think when you say that, Liv, like when you say you have this background in kindergarten, I'm like, yeah. Because what I loved, my favorite part about law was engaging with people, like being in the courtroom and you know, either trying to unpack the story or tell the story. And like for you, the interactivity I see you doing and the invitation into learning, I think the best kindergarten teachers aren't like sit down, ABCs, knock it out. They're like, come and see what I'm doing. Let's get involved, let's try it. And I feel like even your Instagram account is like, what's live up to? Like, oh, you get to come learn. Not because she's teaching in a like a obnoxious way, but like she's inviting us to to go with her on this adventure. And I think I liked I like speaking in storytelling, and somehow being a prosecutor was kind of it is storytelling in a weird corporate way. Um now that is a lot more of kind of that same gift and talent. Isn't it funny? You can find the thread, like different professionals. I know like you're not neat. I'm still meeting.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

You're still you. Yeah, and so how are you using it today? What are you writing? How are you using that poetry? And yeah, where where are your writings these days? Because the blogging is gone, nobody does the the do you have a substack? I do have a sub stack. I do have you do.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

I do. Um, I think I have almost 3,000 followers. Maybe it's just so fancy schmancy.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Nell's that seems like a big deal to me.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Me blabbing, Liv.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

No, I doubt that.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Blabbing. I do, I have a substack, but I've I've been really grateful. I actually I can't share yet, but I was invited to to write my first standalone book. I've contributed to like over a dozen books and edited 40 books and done a lot in writing, but I I am just putting finishing touches on my first like just me book, which is really exciting.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Can you say with who or you can't say with who?

SPEAKER_01 14:40

I think I can say is that the secret? It's not a Catholic publisher.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

I'm gonna be in the real world.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Not in the Catholic world, it's the real world. It is. It is.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

You're real.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

No. I it kind of fell in my lap. So that one I haven't spent all I'm working on. Um but I think the the the most of the writing is happening um more listening right now. I mean, I I really love I love writing and I love sharing kind of what's happening interiorly, but I'm learning, and maybe you are too live. Like the older we get, the wiser, not even wiser, but more like all those years I spent verbally processing on our sweet little mommy blogs, like verbally processing what was happening. Now the Lord is writing more things in my heart and teaching me things that maybe aren't they're not all for the internet. I love Instagram as that, like the microblogging and the captions, but a lot of it is him just saying, you know, just listen. Just be quiet. Yes, shut up now.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

So what is your what is your identity today? Here you are, you're 43. Is that what you said?

SPEAKER_01 15:45

I'm 43.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

I'm older than you. I have so many more years. I'm 48, so I've got a lot to teach you, friend.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Girl, I'm here for it.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Ton no, I have nothing. Um now, you teach me. So here you are, you're 43. What is your identity today? How would you describe your identity to a young woman who's just starting? Like, where who's 43-year-old now? What is your identity? What have you discovered?

SPEAKER_01 16:11

I mean, I'm I'm really just his beloved. And that sounds so Christian-ese, I could cringe hearing somebody else say, like, oh, how how Catholic of her, but really I'm his beloved.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

That's what it is. And it took a while to figure that out, I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Decades and decades. And a lot of stuff, and a lot of hardship, and a lot of trying on all the hats of like, maybe I'm lovable because I'm good at X. And maybe I'm lovable because my husband loves me. And maybe I'm lovable because I have these kids, and when they were little, they would wear cute outfits for the internet. Now, of course, you don't wear anything that's cute at all. It's all polyester jerseys, live, oh, all these sports clothes I'm surrounded by. Oh. Um, but really thinking that I was thinking I was what I did, or thinking I was who loved me or how they loved me, and realizing that when everything is stripped away, and I have gone through periods where I've really had great loss of what I thought was my support system or my community to see like I'm just his, like hidden in his and that's the only thing to be taken away because it's a gift from him that we don't earn and we don't deserve, but he gives it to us.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Yes, free, yes, and he does it because he loves us. When did you get that? When do you have a moment that in your story that you're like, oh I I understand now, I get it. Did I and you don't have to share if there's details, but like, was there a moment that you were like, This is this is my come to Jesus moment when I got what the Lord has been trying to teach me?

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Yes, I do. I have I have a really um it's kind of a drawn-out moment, but I I left my work.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

We've got the time.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

We got time, girl.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

We're currently we got time, girl. It's all you. We're in my living room hanging out.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

You're in the live out loud. We are living in Liv's room. Exactly. I I left working in women's ministry in December of 2022, and that was extremely hard. And a component of that was that our one of our daughters was really, really sick with like they couldn't figure out what she was sick with. So for from January till the following September, I I only I think I had like a few speaking engagements I already agreed to, but I didn't work at all. I didn't um I I took I wasn't online. I took this huge step back to take care of her, but also in the meanwhile, a dear priest friend who was on sabbatical said, Hey, I would love to direct you in what's called a 19th annotated ignation retreat. And of course, I was like, I'm fine, I don't need any help. I'm fine.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

I'm fine.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

My husband was like, please help her. She's not while my daughter was here trying to get a diagnosis and trying to kind of recuperate, recover, and she was out of school. I would do a holy hour every day, except for Sundays, and I would just do it actually right up here in our little prayer room in our house if I couldn't make it to an adoration chapel. And I had specific graces and specific scriptures to pray with. And then the priest, my director, and I would meet every five days and we'd review the holy hours, and we would um then I would get like new new scripture, new graces assigned. And that was that's oftentimes people do this in a group with like their parish, but it's it's a little bit like a 30-day retreat where religious will go on these 30-day retreats, but us like people we can't really leave our lives for 30 days. So it was a 30-week retreat, so it's a stretched out at a 30-day, you do five holy hours a day and meet with your director every single day. So this is kind of a way of like an accordion stretching it out. And in those 30 weeks, I went from I probably it probably took me the first third just like accepting that God wanted to give me this space and time to pray. Because the rest of my life was really like to hell in a handbasket. It's like so chaotic, really hard. My daughter's sick, and then I had a toddler at the time, and the other kids were going through stuff because my daughter was so sick, but every morning really early, my husband would just do breakfast and take care of everybody. I know, I know your husband's the same where he's like, I'm taking care of it, you go do your thing.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Um, so the first third was just kind of trying to accept like the gift of the priest's time and that God wanted, you know, I wasn't in public ministry anymore. I wasn't, I didn't think I was worth somebody spending that time with. I was just a normal Midwest middle-aged mom of five. And why would anybody want to invest this time in me? Like, well, how did I deserve God's attention and love in this way? And then the middle third of the retreat was just some really incredible imagery and prayer. Like the kind of stuff if someone had told me, I'd be like, What are you smoking? What mushrooms are you on?

SPEAKER_02 20:47

And again, we're back in Vegas. No, I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

We're back to my Vegas dates. Um, we're the just just like incredible um spiritual imaginative movements in prayer that I had never experienced. As like an I didn't grow up in any sort of charismatic movement or charismatic church. It just wasn't very natural to me. And then the last third of my retreat live was like um, this sounds weird, but every day that hour was just an invitation into silence. Like actually silence, not like checking my phone, am I done yet? Did somebody email me, oh, I'm supposed to be praying, but like experiencing silence in a way I it had to be supernatural because I'm not that disciplined. I I couldn't enter into contemplation. It was like it was given to me. And just kind of descending like deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper into the heart of God's silence and finding him in that. That sounds weird, but like finding him in the silence and stillness. And it was there, like by the end of the retreat, that everything had been stripped away. When I stepped away from women's ministry, I lost like best friendships, I lost women I'd worked with, I mean, dozens and dozens of women I'd worked with for almost a decade. All of that was just gone, and it was just kind of stripped down to like the Lord and myself and him repeatedly. Saying, like, am I not enough for you? Like, I've drawn you into the desert. Like, am I not enough for you? Me being like, Well, I guess I've exhausted every other option. I've tried, I've tried escapism, I've tried numbing myself, I've tried busying myself. Um not because I'm so great and holy did I choose him, but because it's like, well, I've tried everything else. I've tried everything else, Lord, and it's just you, I guess. And he's like, fine, I guess, now come on. Um, so those that movement that was 2023, gosh, three years ago. And that really changed it changed everything, but it gave me this incredible freedom of like, I love the consulting I do. I wrote uh like essentially had a planner last year. No, I guess it's for this year, it's for 2026. I got to write the prayers for it. You know, people invite me to do wonderful things, and they're all wonderful, but like all of that is overflow, all of that is grace and gift. Like that that doesn't have to rock my boat or change how I feel about myself or see myself or change my confidence. Because it's not, I'm not confidence on myself. I'm just confident in him that he loves me, and that's like that's enough for me.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

That's enough. That's enough. Would you do this retreat again or have you done it again?

SPEAKER_01 23:09

You know, it was um, I I certainly would. I think I'd probably I'm still I feel like I'm still reaping graces from it.

SPEAKER_03 23:17

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

That was a wonderful priest, and now I see a different priest who's my spiritual director. I see him once a month, and every now and then I'll bring up like, you know, something from my long retreat. He's like, yes, yes, no, your long retreat. We all know you did a long retreat. There's still there's still a lot of no porody graces. I think that what I would really love and what I've been able to do is like a four-day, I'd love to do an eight-day silent retreat. Um, but probably for the season of life where my kids are now, sure, it would be tricky to once again get up at like 4 30 in the morning. Because actually, my some of my kids are awake at five in the morning, 5 30 in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

But I think the I need I'm kind of like if I I won't go and work out unless there's a trainer waiting for me. I'm not gonna practice unless I've already paid for music lessons. Like I it really took Haby Depriest to be like, Well, we're meeting in five days, better do that. I could not show up live and be like, I didn't do it, I was tired.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

You had to like I the the accountability. Um, so even doing the shorter sense of like a four-day, I've done a couple four-day retreats, but to be able to do an eight-day where it's like really immersive, but maybe a more discreet period of time would be great. And my sisters and all my friends were like, You silent? Because my first four-day was a silent retreat. They're like, How could you be how could you be quiet for four days?

SPEAKER_00 24:35

I'm like, only the Lord! Only the Lord. We have a kids in gab, right, Liv? Like these are gifts.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

He gave it to us. Like, this is what I, you know, I used to get in trouble in school for talking, and now I tell my dad I get paid for it. So, you know, friend, that's what all those check marks were. And you too, like you had this, here you are with this English degree, and you're using it. You're you're communicating, you're a communicator. That's what you are. Yeah, whether it's on the paper or with your mouth. That's how I see it. So, are you able to slip into silence easier now? Like, that's something I've always wanted to know. Once you get in there, like, are you able to revisit? Does that make sense? Like, can you now get there quicker?

SPEAKER_01 25:21

You know, it's funny. What it looks like for me now is just kind of turning my face back toward him, like during the day, instead of because I will get trapped into thinking, okay, I need to like get ready into silence. I need to like get ready for silence, I need to get ready to receive and be in his presence. And then my guardian angel is like, what are you talking about? Turn your face. It's like, turn your face, turn your face, just turn your face back toward him, and then you're in it with him. You're like in the deepest of the deep water. Just set your phone down and turn your face toward him. Versus like, I have to prep for this. Maybe I should doom scroll a little bit more just to get out of my system. It's like when you eat all the chocolate before the day you're gonna stop eating chocolate. You're like, I better, I just had a lot of Easter candy because I'm gonna be done having Easter candy after Divine Versus Sunday. So I better eat all the, you know, the sense of like, I better consume a lot of movement and motion because then I'm gonna be silent. Just instead, it's like just turn your face. Like he's right here.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

That's beautiful. I've never heard anyone say that before. I love that. And so how many times a day do you think you turn your face? Oh, 75. I'm really behind.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

All day long. Oh my gosh. I don't know. It's like all day long. I just think if God is calling us, we're we're not, we're not in a, you know, obviously, we're not in a cloister called to this, like, you know, this methodology of like living out an order and living out an aurarium, living out a way of life. Like we as lay people, we actually are invited to have a really abundant interior life to live. But it looks like doing that while we're driving the carpal and we're responding to the emails and we're figuring out what we're gonna have for dinner and we're, you know, taking care of our parents as they age. Like all of those things are not in opposition to having like a tranquility within. Like he's abiding, he wants to abide, make the guest bedroom up and let him abide, and then turn your face to him all day long while we're doing the other stuff. I think it's like a bold and otherwise, I never will have time for him because I'm too busy. You're too big, we're all too busy.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

We're very busy. Yeah, for sure. Now tell me how does this how does this um affect your marriage? Because you've also spoken pretty openly about your marriage, and you've shared, which it seems like you guys have the cutest love story in the world. But how has your marriage evolved? Here you are, you're 40. How long have you guys been married at this point? 16, 17 years?

SPEAKER_01 27:49

17 years this 17 years. 17 years, and we've been together 20. Not as long as you guys. You guys have the cutest story ever. People don't know that, they better look it up because we met so young.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

We met, yeah, we were 15. Um, I know, and we were just best friends. He was the captain of the football team, and I was the funny fat girl, and I helped him get dates uh at his high school. So actually, date girls at my high school. We went to different high schools. We met in the youth group, and then I go, it's true. And then finally he was like, well, she's fun. Um, and so he stuck around and it worked out. But with you guys, how how has your how has your marriage evolved taking from those two attorneys who were gonna save the world doing uh lawthings with horses?

SPEAKER_00 28:42

All the lawthings with all the horses.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Um law things with all the horses to now this family of seven and you know, a centered wife who has changed her identity and found who she is, resting in God. How has that affected your marriage?

SPEAKER_01 28:59

You know, in a way, it feels like I'm catch catching up is not quite the right word, but it feels like I'm all of this movement has brought me to where my husband kind of already was. Like I married him knowing he had a really profound spiritual life, but I was kind of almost on the outside looking a little bit like, what are you praying? Oh, Letters of the Hours, that's great. I want to finish watching my show. Are you gonna watch with me? Yeah, okay, come on.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

All right, no, we might be separated at birth. I love you.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Like, I didn't want to pray that thing. I don't know, all the flips are really hard. Like, what are you doing over there? Okay. So to go from kind of knowing that, like knowing that there was um there we were on different trajectories in our spiritual life. Okay, and meaning like both Catholic, both raised Catholic, but he had been in seminary long before I met him. Have to make sure everyone knows that. Did not meet him. No scandal yeah, no scandal. He'd been in seminary, then he'd been a hermit, like an actual hermit, like full beard, buzzhead hermit, gave away all of his possessions hermit for a while. I know. So he had this like very I we're four years apart. So we married when I was 26 and he was 30. And he'd already had kind of the decade of his 20s of like really deepening his spiritual path. So I knew this getting married, but I didn't really realize, you know, then we had kids back to back to back to back, and so busy with kids, and so busy with he was part of a law firm, like busy, busy, busy. And it wasn't until I think the that really struck me. Like working in women's ministry helped. I got more in tune with like an interior life, but I was still very busy for the Lord. And it wasn't until my long retreat where I realized my husband Anthony has this incredible reservoir within, and that's where he is like the most patient man. I actually think our husbands would really get along, like he's very patient.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Yeah, he sounds very similar to Nathan.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

He's very Saint Joseph, like just wants to provide, he wants me to shine, wants me to go have all these opportunities, just wants to like provide and protect, but in like a very supportive way. Um, so I did tell the priest when I started my retreat, like, hey, I I really want to understand like the hermit within my husband. And I'm so busy, but he is like a real interior life. And I, if this retreat, a goal of the retreat, a hope of the retreat would be that I would actually understand what it means to desire silence and solitude instead of being like, Why are you alone up there praying? What are you doing? Come on down, come on, we're gonna make some popcorn, we gotta do our thing. And Anthony wasn't like constantly pulling away from me in that regard, but like clearly his prayer time was very, you know, we would pray together, but he also just had this depth of reservoir of an interior life. I don't I don't really have a better way to say it. So very sacred, yeah, like very sacred and very loving. He always has like his his literacy hours book out like in the playroom with the kids, not like pulling away and outside of family time, but like very much like, oh, just who wants to pray with me and loves going to you know to chant at mass and vespers and all these things that are kind of organic and natural now for our family. So instead of me thinking, gosh, that's something separate in you, and I'm a little bit left out, and he didn't want me to be left out, but I was a little left out because I didn't really want to enter into silence. That sounded boring. Yeah, totally for me to have this experience of like, gosh, there's a real richness and a real tapestry, like real depth in the fabric of silence. There's a lot there. It's not just boring checking out, it's actually God's voice for me. Now I feel like I understand him, like our marriage is deeper because I actually understand my husband more. Um, like to, you know, we think about like conformity to Christ. We want to grow and be more like Christ. And I'm looking at my husband thinking, like, I couldn't even appreciate how much like Christ you are until I realized how how we're kind of where the gap was for me. Like, oh, in conformity to Christ, I look more like myself, like how God made me, but I also look a little bit more like my husband. It's like when people look like their dogs, I look more like my husband on the inside, on the inside. He does have a bug head, so on the inside.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

I love that. And so you so how have these last three years been in your marriage? Have these been the strongest years that you've had?

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Really?

SPEAKER_01 33:12

For sure, and and even just we've had more we were writing down, like, all right, how many injuries, illnesses, and like we've had such an onslaught in the last three years of kids and like breaking bones and mysterious diseases, like an in like a disproportionate amount of diagnoses and things, and realizing because we're not just rooted in each other because we're both like really plugged into the font of love. I mean, it's not fun. It's not fun, you know, when you're like, oh, another thing, another thing. But to not look at each other and be like, I'm so annoyed we have another thing, we can be like, hey, this Christ crucified, like he's inviting us onto the cross with him. And I'm not picking at you or bickering with you because I'm upset and annoyed. I'm like, ah, all right, we gotta get back on the cross. He's inviting us. Okay. And really making time, like, we really make time for each other to go on silent retreats now in the last couple of years. Like, I try to send him away because he's always like, no, no, you go. I'll take care of the kids. You go, and I'm like, You have to go too. So he goes on. I try to send him like twice a year, maybe three times a year. We even if it's just for like a Friday to a Sunday. And it can be like we've got a lot of retreat centers around, it could be a friend's cabin, but like I know that about him now, and I know he needs the silence and the solid to come back better. And he knows I need it. So that's something we never I was always like, where are you going? We have five kids. Don't even. I need help. It's very honestly. So now I'm like, please leave. Please don't leave. Have some older kids, you know, that helps. When you have babies, it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

It is hard, yeah. No, and it's a season, it's a different, and and you're you know, and that's what people have to understand. You didn't do this this 30-day or 30-week retreat or your long retreat you didn't do when you were having infants, you know, right away on your first try. So people have to understand that, you know, like for sure. And that's what I love that it's your story. So you're you're in a deeper part of your marriage, which I just think uh it's so funny that you said um it feels like you're catching up because I feel like we just celebrated our 25th. Well, we're about we're close now to our 26th wedding anniversary, and we've been together 31 years. It'll be 32 years this year. And wow, that's a that's a long time. And so um, I feel like we're just now getting it. Like I know that seems so dumb, but like I does that make sense? Like, I'm like, oh, oh, okay, oh, I get this. Okay, this is this is how this works. This is how we go, this is like it just really is starting to make sense. And there were so many times, Nell, I don't know your story about your marriage very much, really, at all, but there were so many times either one of us could have walked away easily, and with secular reasons that you know most people would be like, sure, go right ahead. Like, yeah, I understand that. And I look back now and I see the richness, I don't know about you, but being in a long-term marriage and seeing the beauty of, man, I'm really glad we did get back on that cross together. Does that make sense? Like, we didn't say, you know what, I could peace out and I'm going to. Because it is a choice. Everybody has the same choice all the time. And it doesn't take much to leave if you really wanted to leave.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

No.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

One stomach bug, and you could be out of there. I mean, listen, I I get it. Like, there's that's the worst thing ever. But so how do you see um do you see this new, like, have you seen different phases of your marriage? You know, they say that you marry multiple, you know, multiple people. It's the same person, you know, um, but that you're marrying these different people. Has your husband evolved, or has it been you that has evolved the whole time? I mean, obviously he's changed, he's a human being, but are you, does that make sense? Like he's has he also evolved as you have?

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is just seeing what having children will do. They really break you in like the best way. Because I I mean, even something as simple as in our early years, I would get very upset and very emotional. We'd have these arguments, and I would think like he's never gonna understand me and my like kind of irrational feelings about whatever the topic is, and wanting to get to the bottom of a fight where he's like asleep on the fight and wake up the next day, and I'm like, you do not ever go to bed on your anger. Like having these disagreements, they weren't frequent, but enough to realize, like, gosh, as soon as we were blessed with multiple little kids, who's got the time and energy to fight? You're like, I don't let that go. Because we do have a stomach like we have to face together right now, and we do have a colicky baby, or we do have a thing. So even in early marriage, watching how much my desire for like resolution and communication my way had to kind of let that go. And he had to learn too. Like, we had to learn how to actually survive those young years. So for anyone who does have a bunch of little kids, it I the internet may might paint it out as like all cute matching linen clothing and like lots of romance with their husbands, but for most of us, it's like serve a bit of survival and figuring out what are the big what are the big things to make a big deal about and what aren't. There was a definitely like that evolution early on, and then kind of in the middle years of like where are we gonna live and what are we gonna do? We moved, oh gosh, almost 10 years ago into the the home we're in now. And I I love our house. It's this beautiful historic house in St. Paul, Minnesota on like a cobblestone street in this wonderful neighborhood. But I remember just this discernment of like he he is naturally who's from he's from Nebraska, he lives in like outside of Lincoln, loves being in the country. Like, are we gonna buy somewhere further out and then have a longer drive for the kids' school or just those tension times of figuring out like our decision making is actually about what's best for our family, not what's best for each of us individually or our own preferences. And that movement there was like a real area of growth of figuring out where are we gonna put down our roots and where are we gonna let our kids flourish, even if like I'm not on a horse farm and he's not in a small town, but right in the middle of the city, and this is what works for our parochial school and for our kids' activities. And I do see a lot of couples the the that like next big phase as being a real time of just fracture, like people wanting to live their own lives, and we actually not living our own lives, we're living a life for our family, and that's hard. It's hard.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

It is hard.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

I want what I want, but what I want doesn't work for our family, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:59

Right. They voted and they said no. Uh, no, I hear you, and so let me ask you this. So we've talked about you as a person, we've talked about you in your marriage. I would love, especially because you kind of touched on it, and I want to be delicate, you know, because I want to respect your story, but how does the evolution of female friendship change and organically evolve from the beginning of motherhood and wifehood to 17 years in, you know? How has that changed?

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Gosh, Liv. I remember being pregnant and literally looking for friends at church, being like, does she have young kids? Oh, it's a couple. Do they have kids the same age? Like, and as babies kept coming, being like, we need a couple friends, and I need women. Like, I started a mom's group at my parish because I didn't know any of the other moms in my parish. I needed other women in the journey so badly. And some of those early mom friends in real life, right? Not online, in real life at my parish, are still really, really close friends. And some of them have just kind of evaporated. I had one like bestie when my kids were really little. And actually, I ran into her husband the other day, and I had one of those panic moments, you know, where it's almost like seeing an ex where I was like, your wife and I haven't talked in like 15 years, 12 years. Oh my gosh. Uh, it just the friendship just kind of fizzled out.

unknown 41:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

So to watch and see like, what is it that makes a successful women's friendship? What is it that keeps a friendship going? And then women that I knew online that I worked with for so many years, um, some of whom I was extremely close with, like every single day close with, that I really don't speak to anymore. And, you know, we don't know what God's gonna do with our stories there. So I think the the biggest iteration for me of friendship was learning to have pretty realistic, and this sounds bad, but kind of low expectations of the women in my life, like to be authentic, to show up as myself, but not to expect them to understand everything that was going on or to track with all of my drama and my stories. Um, I'm very blessed to be really close with my sisters. So, one sister in particular, we have kids the same age. She lives in New York, but we are on the phone every day, and have that one person who's kind of the vault of all my stories. So then my other friendships are kind of freed up. Like, if she's able to get together, great. If she's not, I'm not gonna hold it against her. If she doesn't really understand what I'm going through, that's okay. And even just, you know, in our political landscape, just watching friendships fall apart over that, you know, and trying to feel like, gosh, some of these women I've known for decades, we've like uh, you know, been with them as they bury their babies. And I am not gonna let whatever's happening out in the political landscape separate these friendships. But it takes a lot of tenderness and just kind of allowing things to lie feral when they need to like chill and having really low low ex I mean low isn't just modified expectations, um realistic expectations like of what people are capable of. That we're we're blessed to have husbands. You and I both have husbands who are really our like our person, and then that I even have one other person than that is a miracle. My one sister out in New York, and then to have a sister-in-law I'm close with and my other sisters, and to have any group of women, it's just seems to be successful if I don't have a lot of expectations on them. And I let them be who they are without pressing in on like, but these are my views on that subject. One time there's a real topic about in my extended family about nursing without a cover, because I was like, I'm not putting a cover over my baby, I don't care who sees this business. We could be at the beach and you would see more. So, like, I'm feeding my babies. Remember that being a big deal, but those friendships, relationships stayed intact because people kind of let me have my like very crunchy mom era. And I moved on. Yeah, don't you feel like women friendships are really hard, Liv. I think they're hard way harder than anything else. Like way harder than that. They really are.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

I think they're harder than we're still. so we're so hard on each other. Like there's these mommy wars and then there's this there's these Catholic mommy wars. Oh you know like you're you know like if you if your kids aren't you know harvesting bees and honey in your backyard and then making beeswhack candles you know for the new tritium mass of your porch. I mean like it's insane as they're like knitting like at three o'clock every day at Chapel Vale. I'm like okay listen I didn't we don't have bees like you lost me at the beginning of that sequence I have none of those things. So my kids are apparently heathens. I don't know because we don't you know knit at three o'clock every day. But it is it's the and like you said like you've got the mommy wars of like well did your kid sleep in bed with you? Did your kid was your kid Ferbered? Was your kid eating you know solid food on day four of life? Was your kid like I'm trying to pick extremes because it's so obnoxious. Did your kid ever have Coke before they were you know Coca-Cola before they were 18? Did you you know yeah did you nurse with or without a thing? Did you give birth vaginally? Or did you give birth C-section? Like why do we care how a human being exited a womb? Like why is this a conversation or a level of let me decide how woman you are you know what I mean like it's pretty womanly I don't care how the baby got out of there it came out it's here what are we doing like why can't we just be loving and supportive of one another I mean how do you feel about the mommy wars?

SPEAKER_01 45:52

Preach, preach, look preach I mean I can say it as a person who like ran a little natural mommy blog and I'm sure I was insufferable in so many ways being like I do all of these natural things and then by my fifth I had to have a C-section. I mean he's watched more screen time and had more sugar than everybody else combined and it's so humbling to be like well sure there are these ideals but we're also living in our actual lives yeah I and and if the call is to personal holiness it actually has no bearing us judging how other people are parenting our partnering um but it really doesn't it doesn't it doesn't help us grow in personal holiness. It really doesn't we're so so rare what we need to offer fraternal correction. I can think of like a handful of times where it would be like really on my conscience. Very very few things need to be shared with others to correct them very few. So what a lot of um wasted energy and time instead of how can I support you what is your story oh you had to have a C section what happened how did you feel about that you felt good about that great that's the end of the story.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

Yeah oh you had to give your kid formula and you couldn't nurse your baby okay is your baby alive okay fabulous you know like your kids are in public school your kids are in private school your kids are in private school your kids are we're homeschooling we're doing what who cares discerning what's best for your family kind of trusting each other as women like you are discerning what's best for your family.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

I don't know all your factors and it's not my business to know all your factors and I think having had I mean you've seen with your kids they just have different needs. Each child's different and you're trying to figure out what's going to work for this child and the judgment's just such a waste of time especially on the waste of time if you have anything else to do surely like the missionaries of charity could use you dropping off groceries. Surely you could like create extra grocery I don't know you could call your legislator like surely there's something else you could do with your time social justice like do real justice.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Like your corporate works of mercy let's do it amen sister oh my gosh I love you to pieces I Nell I could literally talk to you all day I'm really angry that Minnesota is so far from Texas. I think we would be lovely friends. I think we would like have so much fun together and you are worth a trip I might just I might just end up on your doorstop one day and just get up here I would in a heartbeat you know what it's gonna happen. I'm not kidding I'm not just saying it I am really that personality and you are invited here anytime as Shannon went I ended up at her doorstep one time in Grand Rapids. I love Shannon.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Yep I love Shannon yeah you can I'm coming down there you can come see okay perfect we just made that happen.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

Well you're one of my dear girlfriends I love you to pieces and I just I thank you for the support and and everything that you give to me and the other women that are online. At the end of all of my conversations with my lovely guests I always ask them how can we pray for you no matter when someone's listening to this recording um I'm gonna ask them to stop and pray for you and your intentions so at this moment what is something that you need right now deeper surrender to God's will.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Stop fighting it just roll with it now more docility more docility for sure I love that I might steal that one you do that so well I see that online anytime you're suffering you always put up the box like how can I pray for you during this hard time and I think man no suffering goes wasted.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

Oh you're so you're so amazing Nell I just I can't with you you're the sweetest yeah listen hey we're all gonna suffer might as well use it for something it's not like it takes it away so that's kind of how I see it and we all every single person is out there suffering and you friend you do it with a smile on your face and I love you for it. So Nell thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and your story and all the things nothing but love to you lots of big kisses from Texas.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Thank you so much for your time