The Rabbit Facts That Completely Surprised Us--

Host Suzanne Rajczi, welcomes Deb Scannell, a rabbit breeder and superintendent of the rabbit barn at the Dutchess County Fair, to discuss rabbits, guinea pigs (cavies), and youth agriculture education. Debbie shares how she began raising rabbits as a child, later joined 4-H with her daughter, expanded into guinea pigs and goats, and became involved with national breeder associations and breed standards. She explains rabbit categories (wool, fancy, meat), common breeds she raises (Polish, Mini Rex, Holland Lop, Dutch, Flemish Giant), basic care needs, heat management, and breeding realities, including gestation and litter sizes. Debbie compares guinea pig care and 72-day gestation, outlines breeds she keeps, and recommends sourcing animals through 4-H or the SPCA. She highlights 4-H’s benefits, fair activities like showmanship and costume class, and school outreach through Ag in the Classroom, and notes the Dutchess County Fair’s 180th anniversary opening Tuesday, August 25 in Rhinebeck.


TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro
01:39 Debbie’s Animal Journey
02:10 4-H and Showing Circuit
04:26 Breed Standards Explained
06:08 Temperament and Handling
07:48 Rabbit Categories and Breeds
11:34 Flemish Giants and More
13:52 Starter Pets and Daily Care
17:26 Breeding Basics and Nest Boxes
19:35 Guinea Pig Varieties
21:56 Where to Get Pets Responsibly
25:55 Fair Shows and Newborn Care
28:38 Choosing the Right Rabbit
29:45 Fair Leadership Journey
31:09 Educating Visitors at the Barn
32:29 Costume Class Explained
34:30 Entries Breeds and Care
37:38 Why 4-H Builds Leaders
39:26 School Outreach with Rabbits
41:14 Joining 4-H Costs and Clubs
47:22 Rabbit Startup Costs and Feeding
51:26 Final Takeaways and Farewell

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to Legacy of Agriculture Community, a podcast dedicated to preserving and sharing the stories of the people, farms, traditions, and agriculture heritage that make Duchess County such a special place to live and work. I'm your host, Suzanne Roitze, and I'm delighted to have you join us for another episode. I hope you've been enjoying these conversations as much as I have. Through this series, we have had the privilege of meeting farmers, producers, agricultural leaders, and community members who work tirelessly to keep agriculture thriving here in Duchess County. Today we're exploring a fascinating corner of animal agriculture and youth education with Debbie Skinel. Debbie is a rabbit breeder raising Flemish, giants, Polish, and mini Rex rabbits, as well as guinea pigs or cabbies. She's also the superintendent of the rabbit farn at the Duchess County Fair, a dedicated forage volunteer, and an advocate for agriculture education, bringing animals into local schools to help connect young people with farming and animal care. Deb, welcome to a legacy of agriculture and community podcast. I'm so excited to have you join us. You're such a wealth of knowledge, and today I'm really excited about talking about rabbits and some of the other animals that you have here in your home, in your farm, etc. But um I think we ought to start because you have such an interesting story. Just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you um first started raising rabbits. I mean, and I don't think you started with rabbits, or did you always start with rabbits?

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Well, I did as a little girl, in fact. Uh-huh. Um, I quickly learned that if I asked my parents for a pet, the answer was no. But if I brought them home, they'd keep them. So the very first animal I brought home was a rabbit from one of my friends at school. I brought it home in a tissue box and had the rabbit right up until the point in time I was probably in seventh grade.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Um had some rabbits on and off from there, and then I had my daughter, and who also had a love for animals, and so we started raising rabbits. Our first breed of rabbits were many racks are many lops, and we joined 4-H, which is where we got actively involved in rabbits, and she we went to the American Rabbit Breeders Association shows on a regular basis, and we thoroughly enjoyed rabbits raising them and showing them. And then we thought caves would be great, which is guinea pigs, and we started doing raising, and the first breed of guinea pigs that we raised were the Abyssinians and then the Teddies, and at one point in time we had a massive number of both rabbits and guinea pigs, far less now at this point in time. And through 4-H she met a rabbit friend, uh uh, because 4-H allows you to meet friends that you never would have met because they don't go to your school. Right. And she was raising goats, and so that's how we fell into our third category, which is as goats. And so that's how the way we are. My daughter is now married for five years, and her husband, who was not an animal person, actually now has his own breed of rabbits that he likes, as well as his own breed of goats. Right. So the whole family's involved. My five-year-old granddaughter is now officially a clover bud, so she's been showing in the open goat show for the last few years. So she'll be showing goats and rabbits and guinea pigs at the fair this year.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

When you talk about these associations like the Rabbit Association, in I I'm just thrilled that they exist. Are they specifically to the community in the county? Are they a so how they're national organizations? They're national organizations.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

They're national organizations. Okay, so it's like a pedigree or a registry or how a combination of a lot of different things. It's it's the governing body of the different shows that go on. Right. As well as educational components. And when you are showing a lot, you accumulate points with the rabbits and guinea pigs, for example, and you end up getting uh finding out where you are nationally with all the other animals. All those breeds actually have a national show every year where people come from all over the country to be able to compete.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

And I mean, I think it's just so interesting. When you say show and breed, and I want to kind of get to the standard because that is what you know you breed to a standard. Correct. And who who what registry or who determines or who makes those standards?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

What I can show you a little later on is there's actually a published book that I have inside with where the rabbits are that specifically states each breed of rabbit or guinea pig, what the standards are, what the faults are, what the disqualifications are. So unlike a lot of the other breeds of animals like uh goats or sheep, for example, they're judged against each other. Right. Not only are rabbits and guinea pigs judged against each other, but they're judged against the standard of the breed. And the standard is size, coat, eye, tell me what tell me what a standard means. A standard will be the weight, for example, of what a a young rabbit should be, what an older rabbit should be, whether it's boy or girl. It will also be to tell you what their coat colors should be, what their toenails. You can't have in a black rabbit a white toenail. So it it it's body shape, it's head shape, it's the way the uh crown is, which is the top of the head, and way the ears are carried. Right. So it's it's actually pages of of standard that people have purchased the standard and can look at it as they're looking at breeding their animals.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

It's I mean it's really incredible all the aspects that take, you know, that that I don't want to say that create this standard of rabbit that you aspire to breed to, and it has to impact also their demeanor. It it do you breed to personality or demeanor or not so much?

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Well, you don't breed if an animal that you have in your rabbitry that's nasty. Okay. Most of the rabbits and guinea pigs are nice, uh-huh. And but you don't want to potentially chance having that nastiness be bred to another generation. Uh-huh. And what do nasty rabbits do? What makes bite? Bite! Well, you don't want biting rabbits. Okay, that's perfect. We had one mini lop that my father had fed one day and the rabbit bit his arm, and then my daughter fed another day and he bit her arm, and then I fed and I came out of the cage with the rabbit hanging from my arm, and that rabbit didn't stay with us much longer. Because there was no way, though he was a beautiful looking rabbit, right, that we would use him in our breeding program. Right. So it's a genetics, it's a common. It could be we we suspect it's genetics. Uh-huh. Where did rabbits originate? I mean, they originated from all over the world. Uh-huh. Um, like I mentioned earlier, uh the guinea the newest breed of guinea pigs we have are coming from England. That's incredible. The different rabbits come from different areas in the world.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

And your rabbits, let's go through the types of rabbits that you have here and like their characteristics and where they came from. Because you have you have some in very beautiful, interesting rabbits in there, and and we're gonna, you know, take pictures and and look at them, but you know, I'd I'd really like to know about each one of the rabbits, their characteristics, the breed, the size.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Well, so basically I should step back for a second and say that there's three categories of rabbits. Yes, thank you. There's the wool breed, which are angoras, French Angoras, English Angoras, and several other animals that are following the wool breeds. And then there's their fancy rabbits, which are the rabbits that you show and you take and they don't necessarily have an immediate purpose.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

And then you have your meat rabbits, and your meat rabbits are bred because they're a larger, boned, make better meat rabbit. And so what we have here will be a combination of the fancy rabbits and the meat rabbits.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Okay. That's uh um that's interesting. Those Angora rabbits. I have been at sheep and wool festival and I see them in people's laps, and they're like just pull stripping the hair off of the loose fur, and then they they they spin it and they weave with it. That's incredible. Um, and your fancy rabbits, let's go through what you have in there and their characteristics.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

So we have Polish, and I love the Polish, and that's actually my granddaughter's breed. Okay. Polish are a small rabbit, and they generally are very their personality is generally very low-key and very easy to handle. Color?

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Multicolor?

SPEAKER_00 9:02

Multicolors, they can be broken. By broken I mean more than one color. Or you can have the solids, which is all one color. And what we have in there are all solids. So we have two blacks and and a and a steel in there. Then we have a Dutch rabbit.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Polish rabbits, do they come from Poland?

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Is that they're an they're an they're a European breed. Okay. What country they came from, I'm really not sure of.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Okay, but they're deemed their stand, they're named Polish rabbits. Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

If you entered them in the category, it would be under Polish. Okay. Under fancy under Polish breed. All right. And then we have also in there something called a mini-rex. Now, mini-rex is very unique in its category, in that it is one of only three breeds of rabbits that have this very lush, uh, want to lay down and take a nap with fur. It is so it's the mini-rex, it's the rex, and then the velveteen rabbit, which is a much larger rabbit, uh, has the same type of fur. And it probably they used a rex in the process of creating that breed. Okay. And so it's it's a very unique breed of rabbit. And multicolored, I see. And multicolored also. Uh-huh. And then we have in there also a Holland Lop. Holland Lops became very popular. Um breeders, some breeders got pretty selfish. Um, so they're relatively i expensive rabbits to get. But one of the reasons they are expensive is because they also have a really nice personality. Okay. And when I'm looking at a fancy rabbit that's going to be part of our family, we want something that has a very nice personality. Are they big? They're medium sized. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

So i I won't like feet characteristics and ear characteristics, they're the mini-rex are just like they seem perfectly uniform.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

They are. But interestingly enough, your Rex breeds and the meat breeds both need to have something solid on the wire bottom because they're the fur on the mini uh mini-rex rex is very sensitive and they can ultimately develop an ulcer or sore. Okay. And so each one of them have a plastic base that they're on. And the and we're finding that with the Flemish giants also. So we have a special uh uh um tray that we put in the cage.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Uh-huh. So they it helps their they're not just standing on the wire. Right, their feet. Okay, so we talked about uh the Polish and the Mini Rex and the Flemish.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

The Flemish Giants are from our meat breed. Right. And that's a that's a big it is a big well that's the Polar or the uh front Flemish giant, excuse me. Mm-hmm. The Flemish giant I pulled out for you is probably a little on the chunkier side than she should be. Uh she's over 20 pounds. The standard the breed says that the adult both buck, which is the boy, and the doe, which is a girl, should be right around a little over 14 pounds.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Is that standard with when you describe the males and females as bucks and doe? That's correct.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

And rabbits. And rabbits. And then guinea pigs are boars and sows, just like in the pig breeds.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

It's you know, in those little tiny, beautiful, fuzzy things. You call it a boar, you associate that with like a big boar, but they're just so delicate and cute. Yeah. And sows, I mean, you know, for the girls. All right. Um, and have we hit all the rabbits that are in there? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Well, we have one more. We have a Dutch. Uh-huh. And he's kind of our token Dutch. Okay. And they're pretty cool because they'll have a solid cover color, and then they'll have a white um almost vest. Okay. Tuxedo, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

And um, you know, the variety, you having this variety, it's just something that you We don't know how to say no. Okay, is that what it is? So if somebody wants a rabbit or you just want to expand your your uh your Well, the Dutch, for example, was a rescue.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Okay. My daughter and son-in-law and granddaughter were at an Arbus show in Pennsylvania, and there was a person that had a tub of baby Dutch that he was actually going to sell uh, and don't take this the wrong way, but for for snake food. And my daughter says, Oh, you can't do that. And two Dutch came home.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Okay. Well, that's great. Um, so the different like the different breeds, they do they have different personalities and temperament, or are they all Oh absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Okay. Absolutely. Some of the smaller dwarf breeds can be really nasty. You know, they've they've been bred to be small and compact, and they can be nasty.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

So a lot of energy in that little package, is that what it is? Yeah. Makes sense. Um, but m for all in all, generally, they're pretty um, you know, it's a it's an animal that you can care for and enjoy and create a relationship and touch and I think the beautiful part about rabbits and guinea pigs is they're a wonderful startier animal because they don't take up a lot of space.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

And so you can keep them in your garage, you can keep them in your bedroom. And it allows children to develop that responsibility of having uh an animal that they have to care for without needing uh acres of property to have. Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

So, you know, caring for rabbits when you say they're a very easy breed and they're a good starter animal, talk to me about how do you care for a rabbit. I mean, what what does a day in a rabbit's life look like and how do you care for them and feed them and so the first and highest priority is making sure that they have a clean cage.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Okay. For health, they need to have a clean cage. Most rabbits are kept on a wire bottom cage with a tray underneath that their droppings fall into. They need to have a well-ventilated area. They need to have some sort of roughage such as hay every day. They all get grain every day, and then you get fresh water. Now everybody says, Oh, they get carrots. Well, they get carrots, but they get carrots on a treat basis. Okay. Only because that's not the nutrition that they need. Okay. I find when I go out to some of the classrooms, that's the kids are always saying oh, I give them carrots, I give them apples. Well, that's fine in small quantities, but it's like giving a lot of candy to a kid. It's not a lot of nutrition. Right. Rabbits don't tolerate the heat well. Uh so that you need to provide some sort of cooling system for them in the summer, like we're going into now. Most people will do things like freeze water bottles, put them in the cage, right, and let them lay up against the frozen water bottle. Well, when you have more than one or two rabbits, that's a lot of frozen water bottles. Right. So I'm fortunate that my rabbits are in my garage and I have windows in my garage, so there's an air conditioner in the garage, and so the rabbits are air conditioned during the summer heat. And how about winter? They tolerate winter well, but the guinea pigs don't. Right. And so this particular garage we keep warm, so it's never below freezing in my garage, and it's never hot, hot in my garage because our animals are spoiled.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Right. Well, many I can tell they're beautiful and they're well cared for. So their habitat is certainly critical in the and their health.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

And their health. And their health and in their capability to breed. Yeah, if they're not going to breed if they're not healthy. Right. Um, and what is like an average uh life of a rabbit?

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Generally around eight years. Okay. And do they have, as they get older, different characteristics?

SPEAKER_00 16:39

I mean, do they well what ends up happening is they start to lose their body function. Not function, but their body's shape and that type of thing. So they're not as well characterized as they should be. Right. So an older rabbit typically isn't shown any longer because they're just not up to sp as we all age. Our body's change. We're not as as fancy as we were when he could walk the runway. Uh-huh. So that type of thing. Uh they sometimes a rabbit will have a stroke even. Really? Yeah. So as they age, they run into difficulties. And how about the guinea pigs? How long does the guinea pigs are around that same age frame also?

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Eight years. Yeah. Average life cycle of a guinea pig. And um, you know, actually breeding rabbits and breeding guinea pigs, is that something that you do here or we do.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

In a in in a low-key at this moment category. Okay. When my daughter was actively involved in 4-H, we were breeding all the time, rabbits and guinea pigs. We kind of slowed down as she aged out of 4-H and became a mom and so on and so forth. But now that my granddaughter is five, the breeding program is starting to come back up again. So currently we have a nest box in there with mini-rex babies in it. I saw that. I can't show you the babies, they're a little too young. And then we have two uh breeds of guinea pigs that we're currently breeding. And did you know she was bred and having babies? Well, we were hoping she was bred. We knew that the act happened. Okay. And you just cross your fingers for basically 30 to 31 days. Okay. And so somewhere around day 29, 28, 29, you put a nest box in. And then as you I showed you in there, we put a little bit of straw, a little bit of shavings, but all that fur that's in there is fur that she's pulled from her chest to make the nest.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Fluff it up. To make the nest. And that's instinctual. Absolutely. And the nest box is um a specific type of box?

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Yeah, the nest box is just built of wood. Okay. That has, you know, a little lip on it so that they don't come out of the and onto the wire and they stay where they belong. Right. And typically how many babies does a well it depends upon the breed. Right. So a smaller breed will have, like this doe had, because she's a mini-rex, she had four. Your Flemish giant can have ten. And the gestation of the larger rabbits is longer. Okay. So i the 30 to 31 days is pretty standard for the fancy breeds. And then when we get into the meat rabbits, it's it can be longer than that. Uh-huh. Because they're growing more. So the bigger the rabbits. The longer the gestation. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

But not months. Not no, no, no, no. Just days. Days. That's incredible. We didn't talk at all about the guinea pigs and kind of uh their um characteristics and the types of guinea pigs that you have in there. I mean, it was just incredible, you know, the different varieties and species, some I've never seen, but would you share with us?

SPEAKER_00 19:47

So guinea pigs are actually very interesting, and I'm gonna go back to start with that. They uh have their gestation is 72 days. Okay, a little longer. So with rabbits at the a uh 30 to 31 days, they're they're born hairless, eyes closed, totally dependent on the mother. With guinea pigs at the 72 hour 72-day mark, they're born totally haired, eyes open, wow, and within 24 hours, though they're still nursing from their mothers, can start to eat food. And that comes from survival. Guinea pig most of the guinea pigs or a lot of guinea pigs come from South America, right? And so they this is a survival thing, so they are a longer gestation, but more apt to survive on their own should they need to.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Because when they come out, they're kind of ready to go. They're ready to go. They don't, you know, less chance. They're scurrying and running and ready to go. Uh-huh. And those guinea pigs and the varieties of guinea pigs that you have in there, would you share with them?

SPEAKER_00 20:47

So I have basically four different kinds of guinea pigs in there. Though there's a total of 13 recognized breeds of guinea pigs from the American Cave Breeders Association. Um, there's 53 recognized, accepted, approved breeds of rabbits from the American Rabbit Breeders Association. But what we have in there is a lunkery. A lunkery is a new breed of rat of guinea pig that's been brought to the United States from Europe, from primarily from England, that have the sweetest personality. They have long hair, beautiful just all over the place, and they make great pets. Then we have Abyssinians, and Abyssinians are guinea pigs that look like they have colicks, and they do. They have colicks. Yeah. And kind of flip. Yeah, they stick up. And then the other breed of guinea pigs we have is a teddy, which has a very soft plush coat, almost like the original teddy bears. And then the last we have is the American. And the American is the most common kind of guinea pigs that most people have. It's a smooth coat guinea pig. Uh and we have a couple of those at this point in time.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

So if a family was looking to get a rabbit or guinea pig, where would they go?

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Well we try to encourage people to go to a 4 Her. Okay. And the reason that we want them to go to a 4 Her is because you know the 4 Her is A taking good care of it because it's part of their breeding program and that they've been handled from b babies. Yes. Very often what you find in the pet shops are what they call they're they're not wanted. Right. They don't meet the whoever's the whoever the breeder is is breeding probably in most product mass production, and these are ones that he's not going to sell and he just sells them in bulk to pet shops. They've probably not been handled very much. Right. The other place that you can potentially get these types of animals is through the SBCA. Okay. Because unfortunately, so many people at Easter think, oh, that cute little bunny is really great to give the children. Right. Only within a couple months they it's not cute anymore and they're not interested. And they end up there or they end up in rescues.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

And is there rescues here locally?

SPEAKER_00 22:53

There's not any direct rescues, but they're they're not far from here.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Okay. So people would be able to surrender a rabbit or guinea pig through the SPCA.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Okay. Um, so uh let's talk about nutrition and what they eat and care.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Well, as I I said, they're basically the guinea pigs are the same as rabbits. They need a clean cage. Right. They're almost always on shavings versus wire. They can't be on a wire bottom cage because their toes would cut would go through the wire and break. Right. So they're on shavings m uh most of the time. They again need the fresh water every day, they need the hay for roughage, and they also need to have their pellets, which has the proper nutrients in it. Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Now, do they need a toy or activity or mental tool?

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Both rabbits and guinea pigs love toys. They do. Absolutely. You know, the the paper towel roll that's empty, right? Um, a vitamin bottle that you can score the top on, you toss it in there. All of our guinea pigs will have a wooden house because they they chuck and they gnaw on it, right? It helps to keep their teeth down. And so they have that as well as hiding someplace that gives them something to chew up with their teeth so they bring down the length of them. Is um dental part of the standard of a rat um when you look at Well, both rabbits and guinea pigs, because you can't have a broken tooth, that's a disqualification. Uh-huh. Gotta have perfect teeth. Have to have perfect teeth. Make sure you go to orthodontists for that.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

So you're their smile their smile is really, really important. So um, you know, what are some of the common mis misconceptions about raising rabbits?

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Uh if you're going to be breeding rabbits, the biggest misconception is that rabbits that they breed like a rabbit, that old-fashioned saying it actually sometimes is incredibly hard to get a rabbit bred, even though they have the right pen the cage, the right nutrition. This particular rabbit that has babies in there, this is the fifth time that we've bred her. Uh-huh. And finally have babies.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Oh, so it's not easy. It's not easy. Uh-huh. And it's not like you put two rabbits together and then you have 20 rabbits. Right. It could happen, uh-huh, but it's harder to do than you expect. Right. And you in order to maintain the standard, you don't mix rabbits. You try to keep them.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Well, interestingly enough, some of our 4-H members have a rabbit category called pet. Yes, I saw that. Uh and what the pet category is, is a rabbit that's either been neutered or spayed because some people feel they need to do that, which is not the best thing to do, but they do. Or a mixed breed rabbit. And so we want to make sure that all the 4-H'ers have a category that they can show in at the fair. So we have the wool breeds, the meat breeds, the fancy breeds, and the pet category. And so that's that category is for those that are not the perfect rabbit, so to speak. Do you have to be a member of the 4-H to enter rabbits at the fair? So at this minute, the rabbit and guinea pig show is a 4-H show.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

We are actively trying to convince, I guess is the word, to get some of the FFA kids involved in raising rabbits or guinea pigs. FFA is what? Is the Future Farmers of America.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

And it's a phenomenal organization that is as old as 4-H. Both of them are very old organizations. And so if any of the FFA kids decide that they want to do it, then our show will be a 4-H FFA show. It won't just be 4-H as it is at the moment, just because that's all there is. It's not an open show like at the fair where adults are showing. This is just purely a kids' show for now.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah, for now. Um when we talk about, you know, you shared how old rabbits are and they're breeding. Um, but specifically, um, what's it like caring for newborn baby rabbits? Is you don't you don't touch them.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

You don't want a human we'll we'll wash our hands very thoroughly uh the first day. We'll pull apart the hair, we'll pick them up, make sure they're healthy. And we generally don't touch them again for another couple of days. When we do touch them, what we're looking for is making sure they have a full belly. Because mama needs to nurse them. Because we need to make sure that mom's nursing. You rarely will ever see mom nursing them. Right. That's a natural instinct, and that's why I say to people, if they find a nest of wild rabbits in their backyard of babies, don't touch them. They've not been deserted. Mom is someplace in the area, but she doesn't stay with them because she doesn't want to attract attention to them.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

So even with the fancy breeds in general, they they nurse when you're not around.

SPEAKER_03 27:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

And as you saw, that mom's just laying in the cage doing her thing as if she didn't have any children there at the moment. Do you have to tend to her differently? No. We feed her more.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

So she's she's getting more grain every day because she's feeding babies. Uh-huh. And how long do baby rabbits nurse? They'll they'll we you can start b basically introducing grain some once they're out of the nest box, eyes open, and you very often uh take them away from their mothers somewhere around the 10 to 12 week mark. Okay, because you don't want too many babies in this Well no, it's time for them to learn how to be rabbits on their own. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

So it's not that she s stops caring for them. Right. She's not mean to them. Right. So to speak. So to speak. That's awesome. Um, I mean, I I find this so interesting. I I love rabbits. Oh, let me see. Um, you know, let me just kind of go through my list here. Um, what would be some of the biggest surprises new rabbit owners would stumble upon if they say, hey, I want to, you know, I want to be a rabbit owner.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Um I think one of the biggest things I tell people is depending upon the size of the person that wants to be owner, make sure you pick the appropriate sized animal. Talk to people before you get it, because we know the personalities of the different kinds of rabbits. Right. And I even say that to the kids when a new member wants to join one of our 4-H rabbit clubs. You don't need a rabbit or guinea pig to join. Right. Please come first for education. And let us teach you about the care, let us teach about the different breeds, and let us help you find the right rabbit for you.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Everybody thinks the long-haired fuzzy rabbits are just a wonderful, oh, I want one of those, and then you find that you have to brush them absolutely every day. Right. Because their hair gets matted and gets messy, and so it's not as nice as you originally thought it would be. Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

That's interesting. Um, so let's kind of navigate to the Duchess County Fair and you know, your scope of responsibilities and what you've done there. Um, you are superintendent of the rabbit barn and kind of manage all the entries. Um, and how long have you been involved? Like forever, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:58

So my daughter is now 33 years old. Okay. And she was eight years old when we got involved in 4-H. All right. We got there, we never left.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

So 20 25 years, 25-ish years, right? I wasn't a leader right off the bat by any means. Uh-huh. Um, but the club that we were in, the the leaders aged out, so to speak. They're kids. 4-H club. Yeah. Uh-huh. And so I ended up taking over the club, and then each each breed uh or each species of animals has an advisory. So all the leaders come together to work together to make sure everything is happening. And so ultimately, um, I'm president of the of the Rabbit and Cavey advisory.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Okay. And so that's Do you get have to be certified or you're just extremely certified, all right. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Experience certified. Yeah, experience. And so uh I have the other leaders take part in running the show. Okay. I oversee the whole thing, but I have Mary Callahan, who's my co-leader, that will manage running the uh showmanship show. I have Alex and Stacy that'll do the costume class. Okay. You know, w uh Stacy also's responsible for making sure that we have uh people on duty at all times in the barn because we we focus a lot on educating the public as they come through. Uh-huh. So we have always have rabbits and guinea pigs out on the table. We have all sorts of different posters that are out that educate the public. The kids are there to answer questions about their rabbits and that type of thing so that we can educate the public.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

If you were thinking of getting rabbits, going to the fair is a tremendous way to get a great introduction and to see Absolutely and and to meet some, you know, create some connections and resources that can help you and guide you.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

So what I end up doing is we do what we call a we have coloring pages that we have out. Okay. Both rabbit and guinea pig coloring pages. We have those, we have crayons for everybody to take. But on the back of the coloring page is a little statement about what the goal is and the focus is in the 4-H rabbit and guinea pig program with the contact information of each of the leaders of the four clubs so that when they take that coloring page home with Johnny or Susie, they then have our information on the back of it to be able to reach out to us if they have interest.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

And that would be the best way again to kind of get involved and find an animal that would be suitable for you to raise or breed. Um, so tell us a little bit about um what fair growers expect when they see the rabbit barn. Because you talked about costume. I'm thinking you have systems.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

So every species of animal, this is actually a fair entry, not a forage entry.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Uh every species of animals has a costume class. What does that mean, a costume? A costume class means that you and your animal are going to be dressed up as a theme. Okay. Last year, my granddaughter, for example, we dressed her goat up as the nutcracker. He she had a tall hat with a plume, and he had a red coat on, like a soldier, and she dressed up as Claire with the with the ballet costume and with the the um tiara. And then there was a story that the MC read as she went around the ring, and they're judged. Well, this is for every species. This is for rabbits, for guinea pigs, for chickens, for goats, for sheep, for hogs, for horses, for cows. Uh-huh. And so each species has their costume class, which is awesome to see. The goat costume class is on Thursday evening. The rabbit and guinea pig class for costume class is on Thursday afternoon. What's a popular costume or it varies? Well, they well, you that's the fun, is you you're challenged to create a new costume so that you have a chance of winning. And the winner of each species goes against each other in the different classes on Sunday in the main livestock arena to be all fair costume class champion.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

So you're competing with the pigs and the cows. Absolutely. Cos the pigs don't like to be dressed, but I can believe that. And who wins generally? Do rabbits and goats normally?

SPEAKER_00 34:08

No, it varies all the time. Uh-huh. I think this past year it was cows. Three girls dressed up as the um oh the golden girls. Oh and they had the cows dressed up. And I think they're the ones that won last year. Our rabbits have won sometimes. Uh-huh. You know, it it's variable each year. It's the creativity of the kid.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Right. That's incredible. Um, you talked and shared with me the amount of rabbits that actually were entered in the fair last year.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Um, would you share with the audience the sure so we had uh right around a hundred animals entered in rabbits and guinea pigs in combination entered in the fair.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

That seems like an awful lot. It was a it was a lot of cage juggling to make it fit. How do you keep them cool? Because it's sometimes it's hot in August.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

We have six fans that we put up in the ceiling that are running all day long so that they can uh move the air. Right. And our barn is actually a very nice barn. It has a tendency to be relatively comfortable even on the bad days. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

So again, the types of entries and the types of animals, uh mean the species of rabbits vary?

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Vary. So there'll be the the meat rabbit category. And of those meat rabbit category, some of those meat rabbits are going to be competing for the livestock sale. And so we had approximately 32 animals entered that could potentially made it to the livestock sale on Saturday. So you had 32 entries to for that that p could have potentially made it.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

I heard that the rabbit was incredible, like the meat rabbit and the size and the scale and And then the other component is everybody's afraid, well, they're gonna go to meat.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

Well, they not necessarily do. A lot of them go home for breeding programs for somebody else also. Right. Or for pets. Right. Uh guinea pigs don't go to livestock sale, though interestingly enough, they are a delicacy in South America, especially. And so, but not here, we're not using uh guinea pigs. How big are I didn't even ask you the weight of a guinea pig this? A guinea pig uh is like twenty-four ounces is is your is your larger size guinea twenty-four, thirty-six. So they're not real big. A couple pounds. Yeah, yeah. Keep them in your pocket. So and then we had the largest number of entries were in our fancy breeds, and then we had our pet class breeds. So those are the three. We didn't have any wool breeds last year. The other component that we do at the show is we do fur types, and so we do uh best rex fur, best satin fur, best wool um normal fur, and best wool. Right. And so that's another category that's shown at the fair.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Yeah. Um is that the biggest category of entries, the fancy breed? Yes. By far. By far. And you have how many fancy breeds are there?

SPEAKER_00 36:50

You have three or four here, or it varies from year to year. Okay. Um we almost always have uh the Polish, the Netherland dwarfs, the mini lops, the Holland Lops. Right. So the it varies from year to year. For example, you don't see a lot of when my daughter was a foretry and she ha started with mini lops, you don't see a lot of mini lops anymore. The species kind of ebb and flow. What's a white rabbit? Because I grew up with white rabbits and pink eyes. There's a lot of different white white rabbits. Uh one of the breeds is the California, which is a meat rabbit. Right. And that's a all white rabbit. Right. Uh my daughter's first mini lop was all white with red eyes, and she was a mini lop. Uh-huh. So you can have white in a lot of different species. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

All right. Um, so you know, you've been really active in the 4-H. It sounds like you've been a leader, you've really committed. Um, tell us when goats too. And goats. Well, you can I mean we can we can talk about that, you know. I'm a goat leader too. Why why is 4-H so important in youth development and how valuable is this program to communities?

SPEAKER_00 37:57

I love that you asked that question because I think it's the I think there's a lot that they learn. They learn community service, they learn uh how to care for animals. But one of the things that every child has to do is something called a public presentation. And at the age of five, they're getting up in front of somebody and talking. And so I can remember my daughter coming home in junior high after doing a presentation in in school and going, Mom, I just don't understand why everybody was so nervous about getting up and talking. Well, you'd been talking because you've been doing public presentations in front of groups since you were young. And so your ability to go out in public and to speak in public is one of the most valuable skills that they come out of 4-H with.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

I've heard that a lot through this podcast series of you know how 4-H has positively impacted the lives of the people that are part of it.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

And you look around us and the number of kids that were 4-H'ers that are so successful in life. Right. Yeah, and it it it truly attributes to what came out of 4-H. It's an old program. Yeah, values, values, honesty, responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Yeah, and and to your point, the public speaking and the community, the whole of the community aspect and relationships, and sounds incredible. Um, so how do children typically react when they see your rabbits and guinea pigs? And we we need to talk about what you're doing with Cassie Messina and going to the schools, and because I'm sure that some of these children have never seen, touched, or been near a live animal, and let alone, you know, a goat or a rabbit.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

It's very interesting the children's, the younger children's response. There are times when I go with Cassie because she has a phenomenal program out of the Ag Society of AG in the classrooms. And I usually go with her when she does the rabbit program, and I bring the rabbits with me. Sometimes I bring guinea pigs too. Uh, and some of the children are terrified. Yeah. Terrified. They won't, and I'm talking about the little rabbit I showed you earlier today. They won't come near it. They are horrified of a rabbit. Right. And I feel bad for those kids because that means they don't have any pets at home. And when you don't have a pet at home growing up, you don't learn about life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Connection, responsibility, love, care.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

But overall, the kids go crazy, especially when I bring the meat rabbits with me, the Flemish giants. The kids just are right. Well, so are the teachers. Just absolutely like Oh my god, but look at the size of that rabbit. So it's a very positive experience overall. But it also I I look at s sadly the respon reaction of some of the kids that are just horrified of rabbits.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Right. And it probably any livestock right. And you know, it you you talked about agriculture education and how important it is to connect young people with agriculture. And these outreach programs are just phenomenal what you're doing, because without them, they may not ever have that experience. Absolutely. Have you seen like involvement with 4-H dwindle, or is there a resurgence, or are there things that we can do as communities to kind of promote the values of what 4-H does? And are there any barriers for a family not to want to engage in 4-H? Is there cost associated with it?

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Well, so there's a virtually the cost is nominal. I think the fee to join 4-H, clubs general clubs usually don't charge any fee. And the fee to join 4-H is something like $25 a year? A year. Uh-huh. With a maximum of $50 per family.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

And so it's it's really not astronomical by any means. Though there's always ways that that can be supported. And so it's not a cut and dry thing. If you can't come up with the money, you can't be involved in 4-H. The other component, I think, is the shyness of some of the people not to join 4-H because they can't have an they think they have to have a large animal in their backyard for which they can't. A lot of communities have restricted terribly. Sure. The number of animals that you can have, what kind of animals you can have, how many acres you have to have per animal. Right. And I think that's a major deterrent a lot of times with kids joining 4-H. Now, 4-H isn't just animals. Right. You know, there are shooting clubs, there's entomology clubs, there's quilting clubs, there's photography clubs, there's sewing clubs. There's so many different kinds of clubs that 4-H is just not necessarily animals. And that if you have a child that's interested in things, most likely there's a club about it. Do they meet?

SPEAKER_01 42:56

I mean, when you say a club, is it do they go to a gathering spot?

SPEAKER_00 43:00

So my particular clubs, and I'll talk about both of them. The Rabbit and Guinea Pig Club meets the third Sunday of every month from two to four at the Farm and Helm Center because it's a centralized location. Right. Because I have people from Northern Dutch and Southern Dutchess in my club. Right. Many other clubs meet more than once a month. Do they bring their animals with them? They can bring their animals because we do a lot. We practice something called showmanship. Great. Part of the fair is not just the breed, but it's doing showmanship. So we'll practice showmanship. And they learn about their animals, so they bring their animals to the meeting. Some of the clubs meet more than once a month, and some of the clubs meet in private homes. Okay. So for example, the goat club that I'm a co-leader in, we meet in a private home. Okay. Again, just once a month. Uh-huh. But it varies based on the club, how often they meet, and where they meet. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Um, and so it cost, location, um, and you just like Google I want to join my local forum.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Well, first of all, one of the things that you can do is you can just simply call Cornell Cooperative Extension the 4-H office and leave a message. And what ends up happening is either Carolyn, Jim, or Brooke will email the leaders, so-and-so is interested in joining a rabbit club. And so they'll send it to all the four all the rabbit club met leaders. And we get back to these people and say, hey, if you're interested, this is when I meet, why I meet, when I meet, and come join us and try us out. Right. How many um rabbit clubs are in Dutchess County? There's four uh currently there's four rabbit clubs in Dutchess County. And is it because Southern is is it just because geographics or it was established that these leaders wanted to develop their own club? How many leaders are in a club or if you're well my club has two, okay, and one of the other clubs has two, another one has one and one, so it's variable. Okay. And you and the club sizes are about ten members apiece. Okay. And you've been a leader forever.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Yeah, probably and you and you hope to stay a leader, right? I do. Yeah. So um kind of looking ahead, you know, what keeps you passionate about raising rabbits and I think the thing that keeps me passionate about supporting raising rabbits is watching the youth learn, grow, and develop.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

And seeing how I can talk about one of my rabbit members, when she the first time she came to a rabbit meeting, she sat on her parents' lap, she wouldn't get off her parents' lap, she wouldn't communicate, she cried, and now she is excelling in the world. Isn't that incredible? And I think a lot of it comes from the confidence that they develop in 4-H. So it and you just work with it. You never push somebody past their limits unless they're ready to be pushed past their limits. And so they're just, it's a wonderful experience to watch them grow and to watch them become friends with people that they wouldn't have met because they don't go to their school. And they're lifelong friends. And I think that's what keeps me going. It's just sitting back, you know, by the end of the fair, I'm fried. Of course. I'll pull it. I'll admit that. It's their long days. They're long days in a commute from Fishgill to Rhinebeck on a daily. People say to me, Well, where are you going for your summer vacation?

SPEAKER_01 46:23

I say, Rhymebeck. I do the same thing. I for 25 years, I take a week off. They're like, Where are you going? Cape Cod. I'm like, no, I'm going to Rhinebeck. They're like, Don't you live close by? Yeah. But uh that that's my that's my thing. I've done it for a long time, actually. Um, and certainly in a lot of different capacities. But I have so much respect uh for what you're doing and the commitment you've made to supporting agriculture education. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

I love it. I'm actually one of my professions was an ex-school teacher. Uh-huh. So I love to teach. Yep. But I grew up in upstate New York. My father was actually an ag teacher and he was the advisor for the FFA. Right. No, we didn't live on the farm, we lived in a farm community. And that's really where my heart started when it came with animals.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

Right. You know, one of the things I wanted to ask earlier and forgot is kind of the financial investment in in I would have to think that rabbits aren't as expensive as well. That's correct. Good and cows.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Well, that's why I say I think rabbits and guinea pigs are a wonderful entry animal because of space requirements, because of financial requirements. It it really is, if you're gonna pick a species, low budget, and I believe the poultry is about the same also. Okay. So they're another another nice entry project. So uh are there rabbit vets? I mean, do you take Yeah, they're actually there are what we don't fortunately knock on a lot of wood. Okay. You don't need we don't need they don't get regular vaccinations or anything. They don't need them. Uh but there are vets in the area that manage exotic r animals. And so that would be the person that you go to.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Like a rabbit is an exotic animal?

SPEAKER_00 48:05

They consider rabbits and guinea pigs exotic animals. That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

And I'm sure you probably have some good connections with some vets in the county that have certain specialties. Yeah. And that's incredible. Um, when we when you talk about the investment, so you're investing in the animal, the food, the care. Tell me on an average what would you say it would cost a family to start up? Yes. Probably a hundred dollars. A hundred dollars.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

Maybe, maybe somewhere between one hundred and two hundred dollars. You need a cage. Right. Okay. Where do you buy a cage? Well, you we help again, you want to come join a 4-H club. Right. Why do you want to come join a 4-H club? Because many of us have extra cages sitting around empty. So we give them to the other 4-Her. So if a good cage you're gonna want to buy at a at a rabbit and guinea pig show, and there's some locally, that type of thing, but the bottom line is that you there's people that are gonna help you get established if you're doing it through 4-H or even FFA. Right. You know, I've told the kids at John Jay when I go over to the FFA program, if any of you want to do a rabbit project, I live across the street. I will let you house your rabbit at my house for your project if you'd like. Right. So then all they have to do is come up with the feed and the price of the animal. So if you were going 100 to 100 to 200, probably max if you're gonna do everything sh briny, new and that type of thing. Right. But there's always ways of cutting costs through other members. Right. Where do you buy the feed, Agway or well you buy the feed in a lot of different locations? Um Blue Seal has feed, all the feed stores, Hackett's, Blue Seal, up further north in uh Dutchess County, there's other feed stores, and they all carry rabbit, and most of them carry guinea pig food also. Uh-huh. And you just buy that in bags. And bags in 50-pound bags. And the biggest thing with guinea pig food is you want to make sure that it's very fresh because guinea pigs have to have vitamin C. And if there isn't fresh food, then the vi age of the vitamin C in the grain is low, and they can develop all sorts of problems. Like the pilgrims did coming over across the ocean without vitamin C.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

Yeah, they got really sick. Yep, and the guinea pigs will do the same. Uh-huh. So all of their nutrients are is in the feed. Yes. Specifically. You don't have to give them any supplements.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

Some people give put vitamin C drops in their water. Right. Some people, the snacks they give them will be high in vitamin C like oranges, that type of thing. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

And do you supplement to you, you know, are there other types of like treats or things that you get for the rabbits? Oh, there's there you there's a lot of store-bought treats, but in general No, no, you don't want you don't want to overdo it.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

Well, no, and you've got you've got so much of your own natural stuff to give. Guaranteed cutting up carrots or apples or you know, peppers or anything like that. Uh-huh. Spinach.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Mm-hmm. Does uh have any side effects? Like, you know, sometimes when you eat a certain gives you a little gas or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Well, interestingly enough, you can't give guinea pigs iceberg lettuce because of that. Really? It's because it makes too much uh gas. Yeah. It probably hurts them. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

Um, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you want to share with the audience? I I'm not thinking so. Uh-huh. I think You know, I I hope that we covered, you know, I I feel like this is gonna be such a well received podcast because it has, you know, it it can impact so many families in the sense that, you know, it's easy when you think of livestock and agriculture and wanting to raise an animal, start with a rabbit or a guinea pig. I mean it's a it's a great pathway in and it'll get you involved in 4-H and other types of programs that if you want to branch off, but it sounds like from a foundation standpoint, you know, be joining 4-H and raising rabbits would be a great and and and and we are all out there to help.

SPEAKER_00 52:03

Right. You just have to reach out to us. We're more than willing to guide. Right. You know, it's kind of interesting. I talk about uh about entry animals. So one of the rabbit shows that we used to go to was over um in Connecticut uh at Nutmeg. It was called Nutmeg, it was in Cornwall. And very often every other year at the same time, there was a large dog show going on. And many of the handlers would come over to the rabbit program to see the rabbits because they started raising rabbits before they became dog handlers. Right. So again, an entry force.

SPEAKER_01 52:38

How great is that? Think of that. You raise rabbits and then you show dogs. You know, that's great. Um, well, again, thank you for your time today and allowing us to come and see your animals and livestock here and participating in this podcast. Debbie, thank you for sharing your knowledge, experience, and passion for rabbits, guinea pigs, and all animals, youth development, and agriculture education. Your dedication to preserving agriculture traditions and inspiring the next generation is truly appreciated. And thank you to our listeners for joining us for another episode of A Legacy in Agriculture and Community. We hope you've enjoyed today's conversation and learned something new about the important role agriculture plays in our communities. Please be sure to share this podcast with your friends and family. And don't forget to like us. Follow the series so you never miss an episode. Most importantly, mark your calendars for the 180th anniversary of the Duchess County Fair in Rhinebeck, New York. Opening day is Tuesday, August 25th, and we look forward to celebrating this incredible agricultural tradition with all of you. Until next time, I'm Suzanne Roitze. Thank you for listening, and thank you for supporting the agriculture community and the people who all make it possible.