What It Really Takes to Grow New York Apples

Host Suzanne Rajczi, interviews John Hardeman of Hardeman Orchards about his family’s multi-generational fruit-farming legacy in Dutchess County and longtime support of the Dutchess County Fair. John recounts how his father became farm manager in 1951, the farm’s shift from cows to a nationally known Morgan horse operation, and the orchard’s growth and evolution toward retail as wholesale markets declined. 

He explains why the Hudson Valley is ideal for fruit due to its river microclimate and elevation, discusses apple varieties and seasonality, and details year-round orchard work including pruning, spraying for apple scab, integrated pest management, and pollination. John also describes controlled-atmosphere storage, cider-making methods and pasteurization requirements, challenges from weather and labor, and what goes into his well-known apple cider donuts at the fair.


00:00 Welcome to the Podcast
01:08 Hardeman Family Roots
03:14 Orchard Size and Markets
04:14 Where Apples Began
06:06 Why Hudson Valley Works
07:31 Soil and Apple Flavor
08:37 Apple Varieties and Seasons
10:31 Tree Traits and Hardiness
12:42 Retail vs Wholesale Shift
15:35 Controlled Atmosphere Storage
20:21 Picking Windows and Timing
21:30 Year Round Orchard Work
22:45 Spring Sprays and Scab
26:32 Frost Protection Tactics
30:07 Weather Shifts and Snowpack
31:39 Summer IPM and Pollination
33:26 Bloom to Harvest Timeline
35:45 Tree Age and Market Trends
37:38 Color, Sun, and Sports
38:35 Why Red Delicious Failed
39:15 Modern High Density Orchards
41:12 Weather Risks and Irrigation
43:55 Best Apples for Eating and Baking
45:59 Cider Rules and Pasteurization
47:54 How Apple Cider Is Made
51:19 Can You Start Farming Today
54:38 Labor Crunch and H2A Workers
58:38 Rising Costs and Regulations
01:00:28 Why Local Agriculture Matters
01:02:03 Secrets of Cider Donuts
01:04:11 Duchess County Fair Legacy
01:10:49 Final Thanks and Wrap Up

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Legacy of Agriculture and Community, a podcast celebrating the people, farms, traditions, and agriculture heritage that have shaped Duchess County for generations. I'm your host, Suzanne Roitze, and it's my privilege to share the stories of the families and individuals whose dedication to agriculture continues to strengthen our community and preserve an important way of life. Today we are honored to welcome John Hardiman of Hardiman Orchards, a multi-generational fruit farmer and longtime supporter of the Duchess County Fair. The Hardiman family has spent generations cultivating quality fruit while helping educate consumers about the importance of local agriculture. Their commitment to farming, community involvement, and preserving agriculture traditions makes them a wonderful example of the values we celebrate through this podcast series. So, John, thank you for having us and thank you for being part of the Duchess County A Legacy of Agriculture and Community podcast. I'd like to just talk about, you know, the Hardeman family and how long you've been here, your family's been here. I know this has been a generational farm uh and really what you do here.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Well, uh my father started on this farm in 1951. He was the manager. It was owned by Gordon Voris. And he my father was in Poughkeepsie, uh originally from Georgia. Uh he took a roundabout way to get here. But he he was born and raised in Georgia, and he and his brother left Georgia, and then he ended up in the Hunts Point market in New York City working for uh Hubbard, who had a farm in Poughkeepsie on Knoxon Road in La Grangeville. And so after he'd been there a few years, Hubbard asked him if Mr. Hubbard asked him if he'd like to come up to the farm, and my father said yes. So he worked down there for quite a while. Uh and then uh actually met my mother there because she's from a farm in on Maloney Road in LaGrangeville. And uh in 51 the opportunity came here to be the manager of of this farm, and uh that's how he ended up here.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

Uh when you say farm, was it an uh fit animal?

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Well, originally there was cows and orchard here. My father took care of the orchard.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

And then in the mid-50s, Mr. Voris got rid of the cows and put Morgan horses here. Uh it was a purebred Morgan farm, and over the over the time it was here, became one of the top Morgan farms in the country. Uh they people would come from all over the country to stud right their mares here. So it was a well-known, well-known uh Morgan farm. And any horse that has the apple veil line in it, Morgan's came from this farm.

SPEAKER_04 3:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

So, and then there was uh, you know, there at one point I think they had 65 morgans here. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

So and as far as the fruit farm, how many acres of trees are here?

SPEAKER_00 3:20

This farm at the time was uh about 50 acres of orchard. Okay, and then in 52 or 53 they bought another orchard north of town in Upper Red Hook, uh, and that added another 60 acres of orchard. Uh so it was mostly around 110 acres of of orchard.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

Always apples or always apples.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

There were a few pears at one point, uh-huh, uh, but mostly apples. Because it was all you know dedicated mostly to the uh commercial market. Right. Although there were always was some retail here.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

So some of the trees on this orchard are probably 40, 50 older.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

These trees. Wow. These trees, these trees we're sitting on here, they were big when I was a kid. These have got to be from the late 30s or early 40s. Uh-huh. Maybe older. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

Do you know how apples made it to fruit made it to America? Is that did it come did they come from Europe? Do you know?

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yeah, all all apples started in the Kyrgyzstan, Kakhistan in the uh Eastern Soviet Union. Uh that's where all apples derive from and they spread from there. Uh a lot of people have gone to that area to get some seeds from or cuttings from trees from that from that period and trying to you know regrow them. But uh yeah, all apples came from that area. So they weren't they weren't native here.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

Yeah. So you were born on this in this farm and you've kind of grown up at Arteman Orchards.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

I was born here when my father retired. Uh I took I took over and ran it for five years, I guess. And I the owner was elderly, and I tried to buy the farm north in Upper Red Hook from him because it needed a lot of renovation. Uh and he didn't want to sell, so I left and I uh bought a small orchard in Upper Red Hook and then rented some orchard ground up there.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

All apples.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

All apples. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

So apples are really your thing.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Yeah, yeah. I did have some peaches in one part that I rented.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

And then uh then I had the opportunity to sell a small property I had there and uh buy a bigger orchard in Livingston in Columbia County. So I did a like-kind exchange. I traded my property in Upper Red Hook for the property in uh Livingston to defer my capital gains. Sure. So I would have enough money to to purchase the other orchard. So I had uh 62 acres up there of about 40 acres in orchard.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Why is the Hudson Valley such a good area to grow from it's a microclimate.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

It's a microclimate. You have the river that tempers most of the orchards you'll see are within a few miles of the river because the the river tempers the uh climate. Uh-huh. Uh the closer you get, especially in spring frosts, uh it'll be warmer. Uh so and in the fall, it's kind of the reverse, it holds the frost from coming sooner than later. Uh, but it just makes it a little microclimate. It's like sometimes you'll see there's no snow here along the river, and you look to the east or you look to the mountains, and you know they have snow.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

Lots of it.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Uh but it's a microclimate around Lake Ontario, the Finger Lakes, Lake Champlain. So they're all all the orchards have ended up in those areas for mainly for that reason. And elevation. You need good elevation because cold tends to sink. So if you get cold weather in the spring, you want to be on a higher elevation than a lower. So uh this is fair elevation here. It's not not too high, or it's it would be nice if it were higher.

SPEAKER_04 7:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Because there are orchards in the area that'll have higher elevation that will come through with a crop through a frost or a freeze in the spring, where this one will get hurt more.

SPEAKER_03 7:31

How about like soil and land and uh good?

SPEAKER_00 7:35

This this farm is mostly on sand and gravel. It is? Yes, and you get the the there's a little stream here to the west of us that's a dividing line. You get over there and further up the hill, it's rockier. It's the terrain change.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

So apple uh, you know, growing an orchard, you don't need ideal soil conditions actually.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

There's a lot of orchards that are grown on heavier soils, clay soils, right, uh rockier soils. The orchard up in Upper Red Hook was a rockier soil, but uh had plenty of plenty of uh depth for roots.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

Does the soil impact the flavor of the apple?

SPEAKER_00 8:13

To a certain degree, yes, it does. Uh-huh. Uh some places uh well it it's it's the soil and also the growing climate. Like honey crisps are grown here, but they were developed in Minnesota, and it's a colder climate, little colder climate. They do better there, they do honey crisps do a little better further north of here.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

Uh what kind of apples do you grow here? The varieties?

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Uh mostly the typical varieties. I grow Macintosh, I grow honey crisp, I grow uh John of Mac's, galas, uh Empires? Empires, of course. Empires is one of one of my favorite. Right. Uh but we do some uh stamen wine saps, let's see, mutsu, eidereds, uh McCowans. McCowans I like is a really nice apple.

SPEAKER_03 9:08

Do they um you know uh some apples are referred to as early apples? Yes. And then, you know, through the fall season, others ripen kind of further along.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Right. The early season starts in August. Uh we'll start with uh typically now ginger golds are kind of the first one. There are people that still grow some uh Jersey Max.

SPEAKER_03 9:32

Are they green-skinned ginger golds?

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Yes, they're a green-skinned apple. And what uh early max was a big thing years ago, but they they ripened over the course of several weeks of multiple, multiple pickings. So they didn't uh they didn't stick around that long. You know, once other varieties came out, when Paula Red's and Tideman's Red came out to replace that uh early Mac market, then they then they got those.

SPEAKER_03 10:01

So um those the flavor and those apples specifically, best for eating, best for yeah, they're they're eating and Tideman was a tartar apples, Paul Red was a little sweeter apple.

SPEAKER_04 10:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Uh so they they even vary a little bit in the spring. Uh all apples have kind of a distinct flavor. Yeah, some of them are subtle, more subtle than others, but uh depends on you know what they're crossed with parentage-wise.

SPEAKER_03 10:30

Does the apple tree look different based on the apple growing on it?

SPEAKER_00 10:35

The leaves, and and the leaves will look a little different, you know, they'll they'll have a little variation on it, but mostly it's the uh the wood part.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

So you can walk by a tree and say that's uh I can do some of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Some of them, some of them are more distinct than others. Uh-huh. Uh but yes, they have different growth habits. Some tend to grow a little more upwards, uh, some have spurs, uh, what you call a spur, which is where the apple sets. There's more spur wood on them. Right. Uh so yes, there are there are different growing characteristics to some of the trees.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

So green apples, they're those trees are similar to a red apple tree, right? Yes, yes. You'd be surprised the type of questions sometimes people ask, like, you know, brown cows make chocolate milk. So I was just curious about that. And you know, identifying the type of tree and you know, what it grows, and do some apple trees, are they hardier or more stirier and better producing than others?

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Or well, some are definitely harder, will take colder temperatures. Right. Uh Macintosh is one that's why northern New York and the Champlain, Peru area, they grow a lot of Macintosh Cortlands. Right. Uh they didn't grow as many red delicious because they're a tender, a more tender variety. They won't take the cold.

SPEAKER_03 12:01

Do you grow delicious here?

SPEAKER_00 12:03

We have a I have a few gold red delicious trees, but I have golden, some golden delicious as well. Uh so there are different varieties grown in different regions to a certain extent. Uh, but it's mostly because of the winter temperatures more than anything.

SPEAKER_03 12:20

I mean, New York State has an incredible reputation for high quality apples. Yes. Yeah. I mean, the apples we produce in the state and this area and its county and the Hudson Valley region.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

And, you know, to all of the reasons that you just said about climate, but the reputation and the quality of apples you produce, we produce, is really incredible. And all of these apples that you produce and grow, what do you do with them?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Uh I try to retail them now because I'm only on now about 14 acres of orchard. Okay. At one point when I had this farm and the one in Livingston, I was on about a hundred acres.

SPEAKER_03 12:57

That's a lot of apples.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Yes, it's a lot of apples, and uh the wholesale market got poorer and poorer. Uh you know, by the time you picked your apples, took them to a packing house, they stored them, they packed them, they sold them, they shipped them. By the time you got all those little percentages taken out along the way, it wasn't there wasn't a lot left at the end of the day. There wasn't a lot left. And so most of the, I mean, we had quite a few growers in the Red Hook area here that were in the wholesale market.

SPEAKER_03 13:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

And slowly they just dwindled out, dwindled down, went to more retail if they they could.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

Uh and so you you wonder, has the consumer too changed on what type of apple they liked?

SPEAKER_00 13:46

The consumer has changed mostly on. We used to sell a lot of bushels, half bushels. You know, people would come weekly sometimes and get a half bushel of apple and make pies, make applesauce.

SPEAKER_04 13:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Uh can't we'd have hunters that came up in the fall, you know, going back to the city, they take two or three, four bushels of apples retail, and uh you don't get that anymore. The supermarket has changed the dynamic of the way people are. It used to be in the winter time, your choices in the supermarket were bananas, yeah, citrus, yeah, and apples. Right. And now you can go and there's blueberries almost year-round coming from, you know, what we don't have here comes in from the southern hemisphere. Sure. So uh your choices in strawberries are are year-round pretty much. Uh so people's choices have opened up, so you know, they're they've slid away a little bit from apples for that reason and because people want already ready made. They're not their lifestyles have changed, they're busier, so they're not going home making applesauce, which is a relatively easy thing to do. Even an apple pie is very easy, very easy to make. But uh that is some of the reasons. I I find that people now, instead of taking a basket of apples, would rather take three of these, two of those, and maybe one of another variety uh because their family all kind of likes a little something different, right? And uh they you know they want them less frequently than they used to. It used to be like, yeah, your kid went to school, you threw an apple in his lunchbox.

SPEAKER_04 15:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Um, storing apples after you harvest them, is their ideal storage?

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yes, absolutely. And that that has improved a lot over the years.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Uh they aren't touched with gas or anything. No. Okay. Are they waxed?

SPEAKER_00 15:48

That when they're packed, they are waxed.

SPEAKER_03 15:50

Okay. Uh back to storage.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Yes, yeah. Uh in somewhere in the 40s, they started developing what was called controlled atmosphere storage. Yes. Uh, which has been shortened to CA. So CA storage is controlled atmosphere storage. So you would build a room that was airtight. Uh you put special wood. A lot of times years ago, they used marine plywood. Now with spray foam, they can get the same effect with that. But when they first started, they would use marine plywood, put silver tape on the joints over the nail heads, and then caulk all any other joints. So the apples will actually use up the oxygen in the room. In the room. The oxygen in the air here is around 20%. So you would have to maintain get that oxygen level down to between 2.5 and 3.5 percent, and your car, and when the apples are taking up the oxygen, they're giving off CO2. Right. So then you have to maintain the CO2 levels at a lower rate as well. Uh, and that they would do by running the uh air through a pipe and into a room with hydrated lime, and the hydrated lime would absorb the CO2, but you'd have to maintain you'd have to have a machine to register the levels. Right. Uh, and years ago it was just a series of bottles and uh fluids, chemicals that you would take a sample of the atmosphere out of the room and test and you'd get your anal anal analysts that way, right? Uh analysis that way. Right. Uh now they've, of course, with all digital stuff, you can just put monitors in there and it all tells you what to do. But they've taken it a step further now.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

Does that atmosphere change the like the ripening or why it slows the ripening down? Slows it.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Okay. If you take the oxygen away or water away from metal, you're not going to get the rust. So it's the same with the apples. If you take the oxygen away, they're not going to mature as fast.

SPEAKER_04 18:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

So now they take away apples also give off ethylene. So now they scrub the ethylene off, and that slows the ripening process further, even even further down.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

When you say scrub, they just wash it.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

No, they they have a machine that circulates the atmosphere from the room, goes through a machine, and then the nitrogen absorbs the ethylene, and then the replenished air goes back into the room.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

So if you didn't go through that process and just picked your apples and how what would how long would they last?

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Uh they would, I mean, apples will last quite a while, but they get softer as they go on, and people want a crisp apple year-round. So uh that's one of the reasons, but it does definitely you lose less fruit under those conditions. Usually you're going running out of regular storage until uh November, early December, depending on the variety. Some varieties you can you know pick a you know do a little bit longer because they hold better. Uh, but usually by end of December, most of the fruit is coming out of controlled atmosphere storage. Uh and then you can hold it for almost a year and it'll it'll still under the right right temperatures, right conditions, right picking quality, because you have to pick them a little bit on a greener side in order to make meet those standards. Right. So you they do an iodine test to tell what the ripening of the condition of the apple is.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

You stick the apple to do an iodine test.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

You cut you cut the apple and you do an iodine test and it'll tell you what the kind of what the uh it's a science. Yes, yeah, it's very much a science.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

It's kind of a fruit science between air and atmosphere and temperature to kind of probe.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Certain varieties do better at certain temperatures. Typically 32 degrees is where you want to be. Some varieties like honey crisps, they when you pick a honey crisp, that it's recommended that you store it at 50 degrees for five or six days. That sounds warm to acclimate it. Okay, and then you put it into a colder temperature.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

They seem to store better. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 20:21

So but when you're picking apples and we got to get into that whole apple growing process and picking process, don't you pick them when it's hot?

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

And I mean in the fall it's relatively it's been much hotter the last few years in the fall.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

So and you I mean, do you want to get them off the tree at a certain point?

SPEAKER_00 20:42

I yes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they'll you can you can pick them too soon, you can definitely pick them too late. Right. Uh so there is an optimum, there's a window that you want to try to stay in when you're picking the fruit. Uh some some varieties have a longer window, some have a shorter window.

SPEAKER_03 21:01

The variety of apple.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Yes, right. Like Macintosh tend to drop, they have a shorter stem, so they don't hold on to the tree quite as long as some other varieties will.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

Because they get uh filled up with good flavor and juice and sugar and all that good stuff that we like.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

They just they just don't have the capability of staying on the tree.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

They just plunk to the ground.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Right.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

So we don't like it when that happens, right? You want to pick them.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Yeah, you don't want them on the ground.

SPEAKER_03 21:29

You know, so the whole process of fruit farming, it's not like it's just one season, it's really you're you're involved year-round. I mean, doing various functions.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

Whether and maybe so in the winter time, what do you do?

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Well, after you have uh enough chilling degree days, yeah, you can start trimming your trees. Uh so you you don't want to start them too early because if you start them too early, you can stimulate the sap to start coming back up into the tree. Want that and then if it gets really cold, it can split the bark on the tree, and you end up with either a dead tree or cold injury to the tree that damages it. So you wait until cold you've had enough cold temperatures, uh degree days, and then you can start trimming your trees. Generally late December. You prune them, prune them, yeah. Just take the new growth out or uh take some of the new growth out because you've got suckers that'll grow and they grow very fast, but you also want to take some of the old wood out and have some renewal wood in sure uh because the buds tend to be a little better on the renewed, younger, younger wood.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

Okay. So so in the wintertime you're kind of maintaining the tree.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:44

And then come spring.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Come spring, as soon as you start getting green tissue on the tree, you have to start spraying mostly for uh uh disease. Apple scab is the primary disease we have here.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

What is apple scab?

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Apple scab is the spores overwinter on the ground, and then when you get a rain period, uh once the once the spores on the ground have matured, when you get a rain, you need a certain a ratio between the temperature, air temperature and the length of the wetting period, and the spores will discharge and come up into the tree.

SPEAKER_04 23:22

Oh fine.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

And then once then they'll they'll latch on to the green tissue of the the buds and the leaves. And uh so you have to keep the scab off the leaves because once you get it on the leaves, then it will once you have an apple, it can go from the leaves onto the apple. And uh you have what's primary scab is the first one, and then secondary scab is when it goes from the leaf tissue to the fruit, and the amount of wetting period you need and it is half the time to go to secondary scab as is from primary.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

So it's very important to try to control that scab in the season. And usually scab seasons, the spores stop discharging late May, early June. So you have to be on top of the primary scab until that amount of time.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

And when you spray, do you spray the tree or do you spray the ground?

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Spray the tree.

SPEAKER_03 24:25

Spray the tree.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Yes. Okay. Uh I mean if you have a heavy scab pressure, you can put uh urea fertilizer into a s slurry solution and spray the ground, and that will help kill some of the spores on the ground.

SPEAKER_03 24:43

So uh and is that a a difficult process spraying trees, or you have equipment that doesn't have to be a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

No, you have you we uh we all have pretty much mechanical sprayers that uh uh will take care of care of that. It's much easier than it was years ago. Years ago you'd have a tractor pulling a guy on a tank and I remember those days. Yeah, spraying trees, you know, like these here.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

So uh now but now it's just you pull the sprayer behind the tractor, you sit in the cab and away you go, and away you go. You use your controls to turn the the banks on either side. And that spray solution, that's a pesticide or it well uh for it's called a fungicide for anything that's disease related, and insecticide for anything that is uh insect related. So there's a uh differentiation from the two, and then you can uh you know, so you don't always early in the season it's mostly a fungicide that you're applying uh until you get the disease pressure, which starts. Well, we we do put an oil on a dormant oil because there are insects that uh overwinter on the tree. Right. So a dormant oil will smother the insects on the tree. So you do coat early on with oil uh for the insects. But then you don't get most of your disease insect pressure until you get into what's called pink when the buds are starting to open up.

SPEAKER_03 26:20

They get beautiful, the blossoms.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Yes, and then once you get into that period, then you get heavy insect pressure from plum coculeo and a couple of other insects.

SPEAKER_03 26:31

Now, we talked about the Hudson Valley and you know the microclimate that exists here, but also you're we're vulnerable to kind of changes in the weather. So if you have an unprecedented cold snap when like we did this year. Yeah, like you did this year.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

But it was unprecedented heat pressure that came first.

SPEAKER_03 26:54

Crazy.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Yeah, my plums went into bloom and then at the petal fall in three days.

SPEAKER_04 27:00

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

And usually that's a seven to ten day process, right? Uh, but it was so hot, and we had had a little warm weather previously, uh-huh. Uh, and then we had that 20-degree night, and that wiped everybody out. Pretty much, although I did was mowing and I do see a few plums, probably enough for the family.

SPEAKER_04 27:20

How about that?

SPEAKER_00 27:21

And then the apples took quite a hit as well, and again, it depended on what stage the buds were at. Right. Uh further south, I think they got hit a little harder because their buds were open further, and the further open the apple blossoms and the buds are, the more vulnerable they are. So I have some apples this year, which I'm totally amazed that I have any. I mean, I've got a nice a decent crop of galas and a decent crop of empires. That's great. And then some other varieties thrown in, and then some there's nothing really on.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

And you know, I've heard about how fruit farmers will sometimes like I want to say put wind or uh fires in their orchards.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Right. The fires don't work quite as long as they're smaller fires. If you get like we had in the past years ago, tried burning some brush heaps to get some heat new.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Generate it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

But what happens there is it creates a chimney effect because usually you have an inversion layer. You go up 40-50 feet and it holds the the warm temperatures. And if you start a big fire, it breaks that inversion layer and creates a chimney effect and takes all the warm air and lets it out. Pushes it out. So the idea with uh the wind machines is you're bringing that warmer air down from the 40-50 air foot area and pushing it across the orchard and bringing it recirculating because warm air rises and cold air settles. So you want to get that warm air and you want to keep it moving across your trees. So it's a slow uh process of moving the air. And then some people will get helicopters and do that as well because they'll put a thermometer out on the on the helicopter and find that warm layer, and the prop wash from the helicopters will push the warm air back down to the ground level. But they have to get around in their area within 15 or 20 minutes, otherwise the temperature can drop too much. Right. So they have to it it's you have to be paying attention to what the temperature is doing.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

So you really are, I mean, your success, you're victim to weather. I mean, the climate change impacts your sustainability, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Any any farm, any farm it does, but not just farms, ski slopes. I mean, there's tremendous amount of business or industries that are really weather related. Uh it's not like you know, you go to your job and you don't have to worry about it. When you're when you're involved in an outdoor thing and you don't have any control, you become much more aware of what the what the weather is doing. Yes. And the weather has definitely changed. I used to figure our first frost was mid-September. We've gone to almost the end of October, quite a few years lately before we've gotten a frost.

SPEAKER_03 30:19

Now this year we had an exceptionally heavy snowfall, I felt like. Does that impact the apple trees or do they like it?

SPEAKER_00 30:28

It well, that was to step back. That's one of the reasons the trees came out a little earlier, because we didn't we didn't get any frost in the ground. So if you get some frost in the ground, you know, a foot or two, the roots of the trees are cold. Right. So the snow insulated the ground before we got cold. So those, once we got some warm air temperatures in the spring, those trees were ready to go because they didn't have cold feet. Right. So the sta sap started flowing very early. Uh where if we had had some frost in the ground, the roots would have been colder. The roots would have been colder and it would have taken more to stimulate the growth of the trees in the spring. So we did have that as well. Uh but it's nice to have snow because and and at least if the ground is unfrozen, when it melts, it goes into the ground, it doesn't run off. Right. So it does an unfrozen ground can be a good thing as well, depending on it's that kind of balancing act.

SPEAKER_03 31:30

You know, you want snow, you want snow, you don't want snow.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

It was pretty deep, it was hard to get out and trim the trees.

SPEAKER_03 31:37

Sure, sure. So now we're into summer, and the what do you do in the summer as far as fruit tree maintenance?

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Well, you're you're still maintaining the trees, you know, you're putting your uh you're putting your crop protectance on, uh, you know, because you have to watch for your insects. Most everybody is involved in integrated pest management now. Uh that came about within the last 30, maybe a little longer, 30 years, where you monitor the insects that are on the tree, and then you have a threshold. If you've got more than a certain number, well, then you need to make an application to take control of those insects. Uh but you also want to be careful the insects, insecticides you use, that you're not hurting the beneficial insects as well. Yeah, like the bees, but there are also predators that will eat some of the damaging insects you have on your trees. So you want to be careful that you don't uh hurt that population any more than you have to.

SPEAKER_03 32:43

So are bees important to your orchards?

SPEAKER_00 32:46

They are important, but we've found as the bee colonies have declined that there are other insects that are picking up some of the slack. Slack, yes, and pollinating, because you need the pollinate cross-pollinization from the uh varieties. Uh some varieties are self-pollinating, other varieties you need cross-pollinization from another one to make the buds set. So uh you can get a little of that from wind, but basically it's always been bees flying from one flower to another flower to another flower and spreading the pollen, you know, so you get the fruit set that you're looking for.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Uh-huh. Now, how long does it take to grow an apple from blossom to eating?

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Uh well, normal bloom in this area in the Mid-Hudson Valley is around the 7th to the 10th of May. Further south in Orange County, it's probably a week or 10 days ahead of that. Uh and then as you go into up into the uh Columbia County, Rensselaer County, they're probably four or five days behind us. Because it's a little cooler. It's a little cooler. Right. Uh it does make a big difference your location where you where you are.

SPEAKER_03 34:03

Um but uh so how long does it take to grow an apple on the tree?

SPEAKER_00 34:09

It from the time you plant the tree or from the time.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

Like when it's blossom, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Okay. It's it's typically you have your blossoms, let's say, in May.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

And then you get your early apples in August. Right. Macintosh are typically around uh end of August. Uh they can be as early as the end of August, but typically they're more like uh early September. So, and then you go from them, you'll have uh some John Max after that, Cortlands, then you go into Empires, then you get into October and you'll go into Matsu, Golden Delicious, uh, and then you know are they a bigger apple?

SPEAKER_03 34:51

I mean, I always think like um Max and uh Polar Reds are smaller.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

They they tend to be a little smaller. Some variety mutsu tend to be a larger apple. Uh-huh. Uh some apples definitely tend to be larger. John Gold is a larger apple. Uh so but it also depends on the crop load. Right. How much moisture you get. Um you know, most everybody is irrigating now, and uh Cornell has done studies, you know, on these smaller trees that you see everybody has. Yeah, they will do a count of the number of buds on the tree compared to the size of the tree and how many apples that tree will hold. So then you want to thin off as many of those as you can to get to that optimum number of bud ratio to tree size. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 35:44

Um, how you know we talked about like an apple tree and how old they are. Um typically, I I mean you said some of these apple trees here in this orchard are 50, 60, 70 years old. Yes. Is that normal?

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Uh not under today's market. Uh a lot of the wholesale market will dictate varietal changes in orchards. Right. Uh so it changes a little faster now uh than it used to. Uh and with the smaller trees, you don't get the longevity out of them that you do the older trees. Uh but like Rome's was a big variety. That was a that's a late season apple.

SPEAKER_03 36:31

And I don't hear a lot about that.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

And you don't hear a lot about that, so uh they're not around too much people pulled out orchards of Rome's. Right. Uh a lot of people have pulled out a fair amount of Macintosh because they're a little harder to grow. So they're growing what is commercially viable. Uh what the what the market is demanding, what the people are demanding, but it's more what the chain stores are demanding. Because they they want five varieties, four, five, six varieties. They don't want all these other varieties because it's a lot for them to maintain in the store. Sure. So uh that's why you're gonna see your galas, your Fuji's, uh, your Macintosh, uh-huh. Uh and then some of the newer varieties, the pink ladies and the snapdragons and some of these other varieties.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

Does the age of the tree affect the flavor profile of an apple?

SPEAKER_00 37:26

No, I don't I don't believe so.

SPEAKER_03 37:28

So it doesn't matter if you're a two-year-old apple tree or a hundred-year-old the apple's gonna it should stay the same. It'll stay the same.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

It typically stays the same. What could change is if you know you get uh sometimes you get a sport of a variety, right? Which is a mutation on the tree, uh, you'll find a limb that if it's Macintosh, let's say, for example, this limb is growing a much redder variety of Macintosh. Uh so does the sun impact the color of the skin? Yes, sun and cold. You in the fall you want sunny days and cool nights really really will uh color up fruit.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

A c the color of the apple is is a combination of the variety as well as the weather.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Right.

SPEAKER_03 38:19

So and you know, because you want like this beautiful looking red apple.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Yeah um, you know, it's that was that was one of the problems with red delicious, right? They wanted the typiness of the red delicious, which was kind of the pointy bottom, right, and the red color. Right. And the original delicious was a very nice, sweet eating apple. And in order, people were buying with their eye and not their mouth so much. So a lot of the varieties of red delicious lost that flavor and they became kind of like eating cardboard. So yeah, so red delicious kind of fell out of favor because the growers fed into the needs of the consumer for a red apple. And now we have a lot of varieties that are not red apples, they're they're uh you know, tinges of red and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 39:13

So um typically how many apples does an average apple tree produce?

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Well, it depends on the depends on the the planting type you have. Okay. Uh like years ago when you had these big trees, uh trees were 40 by 40 planted. That's a big spacing. It took you a long time to come into production.

SPEAKER_03 39:38

40 by 40 feet. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Right. So now they're planting trees very close, they're trellising them, they're putting them on wire. Right. So most of the trees now are planted anywhere from four to six, eight feet in the row to 10 to 12, maybe 14 feet between the row. So on an 8 by 16 spacing, which is what I have here, because I haven't replanted in a long time, that's 340 trees per acre, where the 40 by 40 were 40 trees per acre. Wow. So uh now they're planting trees anywhere from 1200 as high as 1800 trees per acre, depending on the spacing. Right. So uh production uh production has gone from like my on my 8x16 planting, I was probably in a three to four hundred bushel per acre range. Yeah. On these tighter spacings, they're upwards of uh 12 to 1400, maybe even as high as 1600 bushels per acre.

SPEAKER_03 40:45

So it's production based.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

Yes, it's production, it's production based. The upfront costs for the more trees, the post, the trellis, the irrigation is all higher input cost. But you're coming into production two, three years and into full production, hopefully by the fourth year on those trees. You're growing a tree uh that's going to produce fruit instead of just growing a tree.

SPEAKER_03 41:11

So if you have like excessive drought or excessive rain, you know, back to those weather conditions, does that impact? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

Yeah. But you want it to be drier than wetter or I prefer drier than wetter because you can control if you have your capabilities of irrigating, uh-huh. You can control the dry more than you can the rain.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

If it's raining all the time, that means you're out making applications to the trees more often. You're gonna get be under more disease pressure. Right. Uh you know, it brings up a whole set of uh complications that you don't want to have. Now, state of Washington, Oregon, they irrigate everything because they're in a much drier climate.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

State of Washington on the west coast?

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Yes, on the west coast.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

They're the largest dry out there when you get over the mountains.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

All the app most of the fruit is grown on the eastern side of the mountains.

SPEAKER_04 42:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

So you don't get the uh the humidity and the rain that you do along the coast in Seattle. It's a whole different climate in the western part, uh-huh, eastern part of Washington. Uh and they are the biggest apple grower in the United States. Usually, usually New York is next. Michigan and New York will trade back and forth between the second and the third spot, and then you get into Pennsylvania, uh, is another large apple growing.

SPEAKER_03 42:33

And then so Washington State is the largest producer of apples. In the United States.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 42:39

Yep. Now that is a a fact I did not know. I actually thought it was New York State for some reason. Um you know, it's interesting because I've had some familiarity with selling apples to people that like to use them to make candied apples. Yes. And they won't use early Max and Paula Red. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:03

Uh whether it be because of they say the hardness and the candy stays on it, or I guess it's not the science of the apple and how it eats, and they want a hard apple that they can hang on to, and I think they like the tartness maybe of the fruit versus the sweetness of the candy on the ear. Right. I can remember someone that there was dipping apples new max, and the candy just like fell off of it. It was like crazy. And I'm like, they're fresh, they're just picked, and they're like, no, no, no, that doesn't necessarily make for a good candied apple.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

So I'll have to experiment with them, but I have done I have not done that experiment.

SPEAKER_03 43:43

Yeah, believe me, I had to go get Washington State as well as imported Chilean apples for this uh specific uh client and customer. So um, so if I asked you what you like your favorite apple is for just general Eating what variety would it be?

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Sometimes it's what's ever closest to your hand.

SPEAKER_03 44:05

Okay. If it looks good, it tastes good, right? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

But I do have, I do have some of my favorites.

SPEAKER_03 44:13

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

Uh I like a McAuan. Okay. McAwen when it's picked right, not too early, is an excellent apple. It's not a long-keeping apple because its flavor changes after about six or eight weeks after it's been picked. But I I like a McAuan is a very nice apple. I like a golden delicious.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

You know, Fuji's are, you know, certain Fuji's are very good if you like on a sweeter apple. Uh yeah, uh they're all good, some are better. I don't like a Macintosh. They're my daughter's favorite apple. But for me, a Macintosh would be one of the least favorite. Least favorite.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

For eat for general eating.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

Yeah, it's like some people like steak, some people like chicken. You know, it's all a it's all a personal preference.

SPEAKER_03 44:58

Uh-huh. And if you're baking, what is the best apple? And cooking apples.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

I've always liked a Northern Spy for cooking. Uh it's an older variety apple that you can't find just anywhere. Uh, but a Cortland early in the season does well for baking and cooking, making pies. But an eidered, because I have a lot of eidereds, I tend to use them as much. But an applesauce, I would mix probably some in a little bit more. But if I make an apple pie or apple turnovers, uh the eidereds seem to do pretty well. I mean, the Cortlands will work too. You could put the Cortlands in to sweeten it up a little bit more, too. Uh now, Entamins, when they had their processing plant, they loved Golden Delicious.

SPEAKER_04 45:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Because they didn't have to uh add as much sugar to them because they were sweeter apple. Right. So uh they they did like Golden Delicious up there when they had the plant in Livingston.

SPEAKER_03 45:56

Yeah, I knew exactly where it was there, right? Um, so let's talk about cider, uh, apple cider. Now, do you make cider not anymore?

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Not anymore. The state forced me out of the apple cider business.

SPEAKER_03 46:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Uh they New York State makes you pasteurize the cider.

SPEAKER_03 46:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

And uh I didn't make enough cider.

SPEAKER_03 46:19

What does pasteurization mean for our audience?

SPEAKER_00 46:22

Uh well, uh typically people are doing UV pasteurization because it's easier rather than heat pasteurization.

SPEAKER_03 46:29

And UV is sun.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

Uh no, UV is ultraviolet light.

SPEAKER_03 46:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

So you run it through a machine just like a lot of people have a UV machine in their their uh house if they have issues with their water quality. Right, uh, but it's gonna kill the bacteria. Uh-huh. The bad bacteria. Uh we never it used to be the acidity in the apples would kill any bacteria that would stay in the cider. Uh, but then there one strain of bacteria evolved that the acidity in the cider it could come through into the into the cider. Uh the O151 dot something something something is the strain that you know we had to deal with. Uh and you can't press the cider, put it in a container, and test it because bacteria colonizes. So it'll you'll get little colonies up in one corner. So you could have it in the tank, you could pull a sample and not know that the bacteria is in there, and then the bacteria will spread.

SPEAKER_04 47:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

So the growers push the state, the large growers, large cider producers push the state to mandate pasteurization. Okay, heat pasteurization or ultraviolet light pasteurization.

SPEAKER_03 47:53

How do you make cider?

SPEAKER_00 47:54

Uh you grind it and you you you press it on it. I'll tell you that in a second.

SPEAKER_03 47:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

I'll finish. So uh the UV doesn't change the taste as much as heat pasteurization because it's just ultraviolet light. So uh, but the machine was $25,000 for that, and I couldn't justify spending that. I have just bought a used machine.

SPEAKER_03 48:23

So I'm thinking about entering that for a cider making again.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

Yeah, I'm trying to get myself because I did like making cider, but you take the apples and you you you use a good apple. I mean, years ago when they were going to the larger plants, you pick up the drops, and because they always pasteurized everything. Right. Uh but when you're making it for yourself locally, you typically don't use drops. Nobody will use it. You want quality apples. And then you run them through, you run them through a brusher and a washer, you know, to get anything that's off them. From there, they go into a grinder.

SPEAKER_03 48:59

With the skin.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

With the skin, everything. Everything goes the seeds, seeds, everything gets ground.

SPEAKER_03 49:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

The whole apple.

SPEAKER_04 49:06

All right.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

And then uh, so you get what's called the pulp. And that's got the liquid, and that's got the body of the apple in it. So the old processing was you'd pump that into a cloth, a cheese cloth. And kind of strain it. And so you you would layer that up. So you'd put the pulp in the cheesecloth in a frame, you'd fold the cloth up, and then you'd put a rack on top of that, put your form back on top of the next rack, and then put another cloth down, pump that up, and you'd stack it up and layer it uh until you got to a certain height, and then you'd apply hydraulic pressure to that stack of racks and cloths, and it pushes out the juice out of the apple, and then it goes into a tray and collects. Uh so that's how you keep out the seeds, you keep out the skins. Uh, but you want to really get the pulp as fine as you can. The finer the pulp is, the more juice you're gonna get out of your apples. And typically you'll get three gallons, a little bit more out of a bushel of apples. So if it's later in the season, the apples don't have quite as much moisture in them, it'll that that will go down a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 50:23

And in apple cider, there's it's just apples. Yes. No water. Nope. No sugar. No sugar, no spice, nothing. No, no. Just just the pressed apples.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

Right. And some people will, if it's fresh cider, even if it's pasteurized, will put some preservatives in it.

SPEAKER_04 50:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Uh, I never did, and I know a lot of local guys I know don't put any preservatives in it. If you if you press a good quality apple, uh, keep your sanitary conditions well, especially early in the seasons, you can get and keep it refrigerated at you know, as cold as you can, you know, closer to 32, the best. Uh you can get two, three weeks out of your pressing of cider.

SPEAKER_03 51:09

So one of my favorite things for sure. Um, so we talked about apple cider, we talked about apples, the farm, the trees. You know, is it sustainable in today's times to become a fruit farmer? I mean, that's kind of like a loaded question, but but I feel like, you know, I've learned so much through this podcast on, you know, local agriculture and farming and you know the hard work and the dedication and the commitment. And you see such successful farms that are a result of legacy, family generational farms, and you know, there's infrastructure and an understanding and appreciation. Right. But you know, in you know, today's times do people grow up and say, hey, I want to be an apple farmer. Doesn't seem like not so much.

SPEAKER_00 51:59

It would be it would be difficult.

SPEAKER_03 52:02

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 52:02

Uh you'd need a fair amount of capital behind you to buy a piece of land.

SPEAKER_03 52:08

Right. A good piece of land.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

A good piece of land, the right, right soil conditions, the right elevation. Yeah. Uh you know, it's like uh grapes too, you know, you they need they need the right conditions. Uh they're more affected flavor-wise by soil than apples. But uh how about equipment?

SPEAKER_03 52:28

Do you have to?

SPEAKER_00 52:29

Yeah, you know, you can you'd need to you can buy used equipment, so you can you can cut your costs. Right. Uh but you'd need a lot of capital outlay in order to get started. And then you've got the you've got the two or three years of no production before you start producing. Start getting some uh fruit to return to sell.

SPEAKER_03 52:53

Provided your planting stuff. Provided everything works well, things and great environment, no bugs, frost, all those things you can't control, and you kind of keep your fingers crossed.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

Right. Uh the best most farms are transferring from one generation to the next. Uh and it seems like a lot of the lot of the farms that I know in the Hudson Valley, that's what has happened. Right. They've they've passed on, and most of the farms have gotten much bigger. Uh the 50, 100-acre orchards are pretty much not around anymore, which is what we had here in Red Hook. Right. I mean, years ago in the fall, you'd see flatbed trucks low taking apples up the road. You you passed them all full all fall long, full of apples and bins uh going to the cold storages. You don't see that as much anymore. Uh but you know, so the bigger guys that have had packing facilities, cold storage facilities, they've tended to get bigger and tend to have absorbed some of the orchards nearby. If people have gotten out, nobody's taken them over. Right. So they are there's a lot of four, five, six hundred acre orchards in the Hudson Valley now. And uh when you start doing the math, if they're growing uh if they were doing a thousand bushels per acre just for uh an e ease of numbers, yeah. You know, if they're growing on five hundred bushels, that's a lot of you know, five hundred acres, that's five hundred thousand bushels of apples they're growing.

SPEAKER_03 54:32

So you need to have some serious infrastructure to process and manage and sell and yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00 54:38

And you need a lot of labor. Labor is a bigger problem.

SPEAKER_03 54:42

Yeah, and I didn't even get to that, you know, there nothing is automated in apple.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

They're getting closer and closer.

SPEAKER_03 54:49

They're working, you have to like hand pick apples off the tree.

SPEAKER_00 54:52

They're they're working on some uh automation for picking fruit.

SPEAKER_03 54:56

Uh-huh. Uh like robots?

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Yes. Well, robot robotic machines. Right. You know, uh, but fruit, apples are so tender, you don't want you can't get them bruised. So they're using some vacuum machines that are, you know, getting the apples off, and then they roll down a uh a conveyor and then slowly fill the bend that's on the thing. They're working. They're I mean, since labor has been a problem, it's it's been some innovation is coming to the forefront. Right.

SPEAKER_03 55:28

Do you pick all your own apples here?

SPEAKER_00 55:30

Yeah, I pick most of them, quite a few. Yeah, I'm not picking a lot of apples, so I try to do some pick your own the last couple of years. I haven't had a very the crops have been off, so I haven't done any pick your own. Uh this year, I don't know whether I might open for a couple of weeks when I got some of the varieties that are a little heavier. Right. But it won't definitely wouldn't be a a five, six-week period of pick your own. Yeah. Uh it might be uh two, maybe three weekends that I would do pick your own.

SPEAKER_03 56:05

So that I mean that's a huge factor, labor.

SPEAKER_00 56:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 56:08

I mean the fact that every apple that is used to process, eat, cook, make cider out of, technically you're touching it with your hands.

SPEAKER_00 56:17

Most people are hand picked, yes. Most ninety probably ninety-five percent, ninety-nine percent is being all hand hand labor, physical labor.

SPEAKER_03 56:27

Yeah, so you need to, I mean, if you're gonna go into the apple fruit or the fruit farming business, you need to kind of factor that in.

SPEAKER_00 56:34

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:34

And you m may have uh ideas of having a big orchard, but you better have some infrastructure to to house your labor for this for the season.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

Uh the the government has what they call the H2A program. Yes. Uh there's an also an H2B program, which is for businesses, but the H2A is specifically for agriculture. Yeah. Uh when I did when I was involved with the program, my workers were coming from Jamaica. Uh now a lot of the work they still get some from Jamaica, but the bulk of them are coming from Mexico.

SPEAKER_03 57:10

Uh so And with all this crazy stuff going on with immigration, you wonder how Yeah, we don't know where that's you know, where that's going to end up.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

But uh we definitely because it's a seasonal, it's a seasonal operation for the picking, mostly. Intense, like a couple of so it's very hard. It used to be in the 40s you had enough local labor.

SPEAKER_04 57:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

Uh and in the 1940s, I'd say. Right. And then uh it evolved to where we got migrant workers that would come up from Florida. Some of them would follow the crops from Florida up the East Coast. But when we were employing domestic labor, most of them came every year up from Florida. We'd pay their transportation up and back, house them while they were here. Yeah. Uh, and then you know they were here for the eight season, for the eight weeks. Uh but now that market is pretty much dried up, you don't find the domestic workers anymore. So that's why the H2A program is is big for most of the large grower, but it's an expensive program. Right. Uh it costs a lot to get go through the government program of the regulations and uh meet all the requirements that they demand to bring that labor in.

SPEAKER_03 58:33

So and I'm sure it's even gotten a little bit more complicated. So um other than you know, labor, what other um are there any other costs that have like increased?

SPEAKER_00 58:46

I mean pesticides or well, of course, the you know just the yeah, the the chemical companies have been consolidated just like other uh industries. Uh and so once they get fewer and fewer uh options to buy from, they're gonna raise the prices of stuff. And a lot of the older chemicals, if they aren't seeing that they're making financially a lot of money on them, they're gonna drop them. Of course. Uh and they're gonna push the ones they the newer ones they've developed. And when they have a patent on it, it can be very expensive. Once the patent goes off, another company may pick it up and make that same formula. Uh, and then the cost of that product will come down.

SPEAKER_02 59:33

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 59:34

Uh yeah, they're that's up, fertilizer's up, government regulations are uh more cumbersome than they ever used to be. Uh you know, now New York State has passed where they're working down uh for overtime. It started out at 60 hours. Yes. You anything over 60 hours you had to pay overtime. They've got it down now, I think it's 55, but eventually it's going to be down to a 40-hour work week.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:07

Uh that's gonna be very costly.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

And on a farm, that's not how it functions. You know, if you've got a crop to get off, you need to be out there getting it off. So that adds a lot of the a lot to the labor costs. And I know people that are getting out of the business for that one reason.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:29

Again, you know, I talked about local agriculture and why do you think it's so important for communities to support local business and local agriculture? Well, it seems to be a little more in fashion though. I mean it is it is in kind of getting back to it, it's coming full circle, but yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

Um uh well it's what feeds the country. Right, you know, uh a lot of our vegetables tend to come from California, but they are in a uh a big s change out there from what I'm reading. Uh that could dry up, and uh, you know, we may be importing most of our food, and that's not a good position to be in. No. Uh you want to be able to feed your country from within as much as you can. Sure. You're not subject to external forces you have no control over. Uh so yeah, I mean it keeps open land, it keeps, you know, like this farm I've sold the development rights on, so this will never be littered with houses. Uh, and I feel very strongly about that. Congratulations. I grew up on this farm.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:43

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:44

I never wanted to see it littered with houses. Uh, and there's, I think in Reddock alone, I think there's 120 or 1,400 acres that are under conservation easement in one form or another that can't be developed.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:58

Uh it's really important.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:01

Yeah. For sure. Um, so let's kind of shift gears a little bit because you have a reputation for making the best apple cider donut. And I hear about and I have witnessed the lines during the Duchess County Fair of your apple cider donuts. Yeah. Okay. So I'm I can't ask you like your secret sauce recipe because you probably won't share it. Yeah. But, you know, talk to me about making how do you make a good apple cider donut? What's this?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:29

I mean good quality product going in.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:32

Good quality product. I mean that was kind of evasive. You keep you keep uh Do you use apple cider in case?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:38

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:39

Okay. Do you use your cider to make your apple cider donuts? I try to use it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:44

I try to use my own when I don't, I get it from a neighbor. Okay. Uh so it's it's apple actual apple cider, it's not apple juice. Right. I mean, I could do it with apple juice, uh, but I prefer to do it with apple cider and then the uh oil the donuts get fried in. You gotta use a high quality oil. Very important. I know when people use a cheaper oil, it's it's not the same. So you gotta spend the money, you gotta put money in to get money back. And then uh a good quality donut mix. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:15

So so it's a it's a combination of the apple cider. Yes. Um, and there's no apple particulates in there, right? You don't like chop up apples.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:26

No, I've I've experimented with that a little bit. I haven't really refined that.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:31

Kind of gets too wet, maybe I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

That's that's part of the problem.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:36

So and does and the temperature or that you're probably cooking.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:40

Yeah, it's got to be 375. Exactly yeah, right around 375 within a few degrees.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:45

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:45

So, and then the time the machine sets the time for you. You can you can dial in, you get your machine set properly for the amount of time that the oil, the donuts are in the oil before they come out of the hopper and up the up the machine.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:58

I've worked the fair many years and have watched the lines, and you're like, where do I get the apple cider donuts? Where do I get the apple cider donuts? I mean, you created a legacy in your apple cider donuts. Um, and let's talk a little bit about the Duchess County Fair, your long-term relationship with the fair. I mean, you have been a mainstay there, um, but what does it really mean to you and your family?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:22

Uh, well, probably more to me than my family.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:26

You know, I've thrown them nine kids in there a little bit to work, and you know, they uh the fair especially is a long, long week, you know. Yeah, it is. Uh I'm I'm in there generally by 6 or 6.30 to get the donut fryer warmed up, uh get things started, get the coffee started, and then deliver to my other booth if they need more apples or something over to the other booth. Or and then I have supplied apples for other vendors there. So by the time you know the machine is warming up, I'm doing that. And then uh, you know, then I get back and start making the donuts. But then, you know, by the time you clean up, fare ends at 10, you get cleaned up. It's 11 or midnight before you get home, and then you're up again the next morning at 5:36 to get out the door. So it's it's it's a lot of hours for for the week, but I enjoy it. I always have enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:26

Um you're a foundational person there at the fair.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:30

So I mean I've I I started years ago. Uh the apple growers of Duchess County had a cider booth at the fair for years and years and years.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:40

Do you you sell cider too? Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:42

Yep. Yep. My one my uh operation in building D is mostly cider. Right. But the fruit growers started the cider booth. And it would be that different growers would take a day and man the cider booth. Yep. And then And uh, you know, the money they got from there was used to promote apples or to uh help fund the Hudson Valley Research Lab in Highland. Well, it used to be in Poughkeepsie, but it's been in Highland for many years. And uh they they have professors working with Cornell there that uh you know uh help uh develop the the the process of growing apples. Yeah, what what works, what doesn't work. So some of the money from the cider booth would go for there, some of the money would go to you know uh scholarships for schools or some of it. Definitely every year we always gave a donation to the Northern Duchess Hospital, uh which is right in our backyard here, you know, because we were sending a lot of workers, you know, if they got sick, you know, and they didn't have health insurance, they were going there, so we felt like it was beneficial for us to help also. Giving back to the community, giving back to the community. So as farms got busier and busier into the retail, it got harder and harder to get people to man the cider booth. And so one year uh couldn't get it manned, they were gonna give it up. And it was close to the fair. And I I decided that I couldn't go down there and tell the fair that they were gonna have 40 feet of empty space.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:32

No, not in that building.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:34

We also did uh farm stand displays, which were a competition. Before that, we had a big area where fruit was was judged and uh you know got ribbons and awards for it.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:48

That's not in the Grange building.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:50

Uh it's no, I don't know that they're doing any fruit anymore. Yeah. It used to be all well it year years ago it was in one of the wooden barracks. I can go back and remember the the old army barracks they had there for buildings. But anyway, uh it was typically in building D. So they gave that up and then they moved to the farm stand displays. So there was going to be a lot of space at the fair that was empty. So I just took it upon myself to run that cider booth so that there was something maintained there for the fair. Right. And uh so I ended up taking taking it over and then moved from there into doing the cider donuts as well up on on the building in the hill.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:37

Right. And you call it the cider house or yeah, cider house. Yep. Yeah, it's an incredible little spot too. Yeah, really.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:46

But it's mostly, you know, gotten known for the donuts.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:49

Oh my gosh, yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:51

So, but I you know, so I I uh as a kid was vending one day a week at the fair, probably when I was eight, ten years old helping my father and my family, because we go in and run the booth for one day. So I I've been I've been doing it for many, many years.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:09

More than I care to more than you care to share with our audience today. Yes. Well, you like I said, you certainly are a foundational person at the fair and um you know have contributed so much over the years.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:21

So I've I've always the fair has always been a big part. Uh I can you know always look forward to the fair. You know, the fair was the kind of the end of the summer and uh you know your last hurrah before you went back to school. But uh I can remember helping my father shut down the booth on Sunday night and being in the back of the station wagon and going up north on Route 9 before all the trees were there and you could watch and see the Ferris wheel and getting very uh Yeah sad about you know oh it's gonna be another year before the fair is there.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:57

And it happens so quickly.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:58

Yes, it happened so quickly.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:00

So this year is the 180th anniversary of the fair. Anything anything special you have up your sleeve or not haven't thought about it yet?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:08

I'll have to I'll have to contemplate that one. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:11

So it's the 250th anniversary. I mean, there's a lot of a lot of reasons to celebrate this year, and you know, we're really excited and looking forward to a great fair.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:20

So well, I've I've told my kids I want to I want to make the 200th. I see I don't care if I'm in a wheelchair drooling off the side of my face, I want you to push me into the fairgrounds if I'm alive for the 200th. How about that? Even even if my head is hanging over back.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:37

How about that? I think that that is a great aspiration, and I hope to be there right with you. So I think maybe I'll make it. I don't know, you know, it's hard to say. But all right. Um, anything that maybe I always ask this question, an open-ended question. Anything you want to share that maybe I didn't speak to as far as fruit farming and apple farming and and anything?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:01

Well, uh we appreciate, you know, as farmers, the local support we get at the at the farm stands. And you know, uh it's a there's a lot of farm stands. It's important to get out and try to support them as many as you can. For sure. Uh, because a lot of us are re relying on the retail aspect of it now, more so than the uh commercial wholesale. It's very important. Uh so yeah, it and you know we want people to understand what we're doing, we're doing because that's necessary for our operation and our business. You know, when the tractor's on the road, you know, don't get mad blowing the horn, you know, because if we have to get from one spot to another, right, uh, or go to a neighbor and borrow a piece of equipment, you know, we're on the road and we're not there to try to annoy you or ruin your day. We're there because that's what we have to we have to do. For sure. So well, good.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:01

All right. Well, thank you, John. I appreciate the time and the discussion and participating in today's podcast. It's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure for me. I knew it would be great. John, thank you for sharing your family story, your passion for fruit farming, and your commitment to preserving agriculture in Duchess County. The Hardiman family represents the dedication, perseverance, and community spirit that make agriculture such an important part of our region. To our listeners, thank you for joining us for another episode of Legacy of Agriculture and Community. We hope you enjoyed learning about the people and farms that help sustain our agriculture heritage and strengthen our community. Please take a moment to like, share, and subscribe to the podcast so you can continue following the stories of the remarkable individuals who make Dutchess County agriculture so special. And be sure to mark your calendars for the 180th Duchess County Fair, August 25th through August 30th in Rhinebeck, New York. We look forward to celebrating our agriculture heritage with you. Until next time, I'm Suzanne Roidsey. Thank you for listening and thank you for supporting local agriculture.