EX-BANKERS EXPLAIN: Investment Banking Mistakes To AVOID In Your First Year

It's summer training season. Both Debs and Graham are spending their days running analyst and associate programmes at major firms, which makes this the right moment to step back from the deal-of-the-week format and share the kind of candid advice they wish someone had given them on day one.

Graham opens with his own first-year story at Lehman Brothers in 2005, including the pitch book error that earned him an hour-long dressing-down from a VP, and uses it as the entry point to a broader conversation about attention to detail and why the technical work in finance is genuinely not the hardest part of the job. 

Debs shares her own near-career-ending moment publishing a flawed research screen as a new associate, and reflects on how she recovered, what her boss told her, and why trust, once lost, takes years to rebuild.

From there the conversation moves through the practical advice that gets harder to find as classes get larger and firms get bigger. 

How to tell the difference between a recoverable mistake and a career-ending one. Why finance math is simple and getting stuff done well is the actual skill. 

How to ask questions that add value versus questions that just take up airtime. Why prep before meetings is the easiest way to stand out, why sharp elbows are usually the wrong instinct, and why being a team player matters more than being the smartest person in the room.

The episode closes with their personal survival tips: physical activity, availability, sleep, calendar discipline, and showing up to everything you can. 

The kind of advice that sounds basic but separates the analysts who get the return offer from the ones who don't.

Key Discussion Points:

Attention to detail: why the costs of getting it wrong are high, and how AI changes (but doesn't reduce) the standard. 

Recoverable vs. career-ending mistakes: how to tell the difference and what to do in each case. 

The technical work is the easy part: why getting stuff done well is the real skill. 

Asking questions that add value: how to demonstrate engagement without taking up airtime. 

Standing out without sharp elbows: why being a team player and showing up consistently is the most underrated path. 

Survival habits: physical, mental, calendar, sleep, and the practical mechanics of not burning out.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

When you screw up, then you you will screw up, right? It's it's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

I thought that's it. That's the end of my correct survived. And it's I that's before it started.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

I was just screwing stuff up from day one at Lehman Brothers. I mean, why why do you think Lehman Brothers collapsed?

SPEAKER_01 0:16

I think it's function is that if you're in a vested banking, you have to really sharp elbows and try and prove that you're the best as soon as you arrive. And that's really not the case. So let's just dive straight in. What do you want to talk about this week that you think new starters in finance can learn from?

SPEAKER_00 0:34

But no, we both we've both been around the block a few times. So based on we are both both Debs and I are knee deep, neck deep in summer training, both for first-year analysts, first-year associates, summer summer analysts. Actually, it's it's crazy. So I spent a decade at Ares Management. And I assume, I mean, Debs, you kind of lived through a lot of the same finance progression as I did. I mean, when I when I joined in 2005, I joined a firm that, I mean, I was probably employee like 100 or so. Like the London office was like 10-ish people when I when I joined. And there was no, there was no summer training program, there was no summer analyst program, there was no full-time analyst program. You had to go, in essence, get trains at an investment bank, and then you had you had the opportunity to move to a different, a different kind of place. So it's it's kind of it's an interesting full circle moment because I was back at Aries training in New York last week. And Aries has, I want to say, and someone is gonna correct me if I'm wrong in the comments, but like 65 summer analysts. I mean, so many that it wasn't even held in their office. It was held at one of those like conference center things. And I'm like, what, what is this place? It's crazy. Um, so everyone, everyone is just neck deep in summer training. I think it's a really interesting time to be looking for a job or starting a job in this space now, just because you have so many more opportunities than us dinosaurs had than when we were, you know, when we were looking for a job like this, just because you can you can join an Aries, you can join an asset manager straight out of school as a summer analyst. I think it's a really, it's a really interesting, exciting time. Uh and yeah, we've both we've both been around the block a few times. So I figured try to share a little bit of a little bit of insight into what worked, what didn't work, a few, a few things about what, what not to do. But I know it's it can be overwhelming as as you're starting a new job. And yeah, we can like pepper in a few, a few kind of topics about a few do's and don'ts as you head into summer to start either your analyst program or if you're just doing a summer uh summer internship.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

And Grime, I'm keen to stick with you because I will kind of want to throw you under the bus first. So I thought it'd be really good if you share experiences from maybe your first year or so working at Aries, anything that you did wrong that you know at the time maybe you thought was career limiting. Clearly it wasn't because you've been really successful. So what did you learn from that?

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Ooh, okay, let's let's rewind even before Aries, because I was screwing stuff up from day one at Lehman Brothers. I mean, why why do you think Lehman Brothers collapsed devs? I mean, God, like obviously I've I I actually take the view that Lehman just couldn't survive without me. And after I left in January 2008, that's why it collapsed. But you know what? That's a one person's opinion. Um okay. First, like first, first things first is in any job like this. Okay, I think, I think taking a big step back, banking finance in whatever whatever specific field you're you're going into is not rocket science. Right? Debs and I do all the all the training here. Finance math is not hard. It's simple multiplication, division. I mean, I think the hardest finance math gets, Debs, is probably the time value of money where you're discounting stuff back or growing it forward. Even that is not it's not complicated. The thing that is important, like one of the things I think if I if I distill the skills I got in my investment banking career, I say investment banking career, I mean as an analyst for like two and a half years. But if you kind of distill that into one thing or one set of skills, it's the ability to get stuff done, get stuff done quickly, get stuff done efficiently. Like you're hired to do a job and to do it really well. And like ultimately the cost of screwing up can be pretty high. So, like the first, the first thing you're gonna hear is from a bunch of people, but the first thing is just attention to detail. Well, I know Deb, we've talked about the Warner Brothers Paramount Skydance situation. You see the kind of crazy, what seem like crazy fees that are paid just to give like a fairness opinion on a deal. If you're getting paid the $50, $90, $100 million, whatever it was, to give a fairness opinion on a big public MA transaction, you better be right about everything. Like you're not, you can't have a mistake in something that goes out to millions and millions of people and they're using as a basis to make an investment decision on. So attention to detail is first and foremost one of those important things I think you need to learn really early on. And I remember, I mean, there are by the way, there are different, there are different levels of importance as well. And this is something that I think a lot of people kind of forget and and lose, lose track of and lose sight of. Because if you if you think about, say, every single aspect of the job being as important as everything else, I actually think you'll burn out and you'll drive yourself totally crazy. But there's one thing I remember uh when I was, you know, it was a first-year, I definitely definitely was a first-year analyst because I was still in LA. I only did a year at at Lehman in LA. And I remember I was putting a pitch book together. And I think, you know what? I think this was a pitch book for the biggest MA deal that I worked on when I was at Lehman Brothers. So company called or bank called Wacovia, which no longer exists, bought a bank called Golden West Financial, which no longer exists. Uh and it was a $26 billion deal. I still have this like glass Lehman Brothers big deal award for it. It was kind of fun back in the day. It was like first page of Wall Street Journal. And I remember when I was uh when I was you know 21 or whatever, I'm like, oh, this is so cool. Um, but in the in the months leading up to that deal, you do a bunch of pitching and whatnot. So I remember it was a pitch. We were going to pitch for for you know some kind of engagement. I don't remember it was that, to Golden West Financial. And before the pitch went out, I had sent the book to you know a VP, who by the way is like he is is an awesome, is an awesome dude. Like we're still in touch. Like I get his family Christmas card every year. But I had screwed up the dates over, you know, a table. You know, one, if this was 2005, it was 2004 above 2005, and vice versa. And I should you not, he yelled at me for like it felt like an hour. He's like, how could you be so fucking stupid? And I'm like, oh my God, am I getting am I getting fired? And I'm like, it's just a it's just a pitch book, you know? Um, but it like even though, even though that was, you know, that's it's just a pitch, it's not a real deal. It's still something that's going out externally. You want to make sure it's right. And I think those kind of early reminders about, you know, check your work a few times before you, before you send it over. Just don't assume it's gonna be right. By the way, I think that's extra important now in the days of AI where we're gonna rely on these tools to do a lot of our jobs for us, at least from a from a first pass perspective. Like, don't just prompt Claude or GPT and assume it's right. Like, you better check it. Make sure it's right before you, before you hand it up to the next level. So attention to detail is a massively important part of this job. Again, the job is not, I'm not trying to undersell it, but technically speaking, it's not hard. Like it is really not that difficult. But be be there, be ready to do the job, be ready to do it well, and check your work a few times before you send it, even up to your associate. Because like ultimately, stupid mistakes make you look kind of dumb.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

So that's that's one. Uh how about you, Debs?

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Um, you know, it's I have weirdly enough, my own experience is kind of similar. So in as a bit of background, a bit of context. So I also didn't do a full-time program joining an investment bank because I'd already qualified as an accountant. So I went straight in as kind of an associate when I joined equity research. And so the assumption was I already knew the stuff. And I think I made that assumption as well, and was immediately involved in publishing research. As soon as I had my kind of regulatory qualification, I was kind of unleashed and able to start publishing research. And so I contributed to a note that was published about companies that had made um that had been, I think they were at risk of recognizing impairments because of some of the acquisitions they'd made. And we did run these things called screens, which are basically analysis of company metrics across a whole number of companies, and we identified companies which we thought were particularly at risk. And these are kind of you know potentially negative signals to the market. So it's quite a bearish research note to write. And I ran my screen, I ran my analysis, included on the front page of the research note, published to the market, you know, pretty chuck with myself. And then immediately we start getting calls from companies saying, Why are we on this screen? These numbers aren't correct. So like you, I thought, that's it, that's the end of my career. I've only just arrived and it's gonna be over before.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Yeah, you're like, I'm I'm tossed, I'm done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

So I spoke to my boss, who, like actually, weirdly enough, like you, is still a good friend of mine and meeting at the drinks later this week, actually. He ended up as the head of research as well. So, but he was so brilliant about it. And he was like, listen, you need to get your numbers right. We need to update the screen, we need to, you know, refresh the numbers, republish. You know, there are ways and means that you can manage this error. Um, but the key thing is don't do it again. Do not do that again. Because trust, once it's lost, and that's both internally within the bank, but also with clients, is it takes a really long time to get that back. So you have to absolutely learn from it. Um so that for me was my very first mistake that I, you know, that I kind of experienced. I think another mistake that I uh that I didn't make, but I was working with someone who did this, um, initiated on a company and research, and when they were calculating their target price, you calculate the value operations, you subtract the net debt to get to the equity value and derive your target price. Instead of subtracting net debt, they added it. They then published the research note, and again, immediately clients started calling. Now, at that point, I myself thought that was career limiting for this other person. But what they did was brilliant. They basically very swiftly updated their model, somehow miraculously came up with the same target price but corrected the net data error, republished within an hour. And that person, they were still they were also at the beginning of their career, but because they owned it, because they responded really well in a crisis, they went on to do brilliant things. I'm not going to name who they are, but they went on to do really good things in research. But a bit like you were saying, the key takeaway for me is check your work. Yeah, sense check it. Don't just check the formulas, sense check it. You know, what you're highlighting, does it actually make sense to you? Um but yeah, that attention to detail is really important. And once you've made that a mistake, never make that mistake again. And then also, yeah, like you were saying, there is a difference between errors which you can recover from if you own them, and genuinely career-limiting ones, which for me, anything to do with compliance or regulation, that is much more a line that you just never want to cross. You'll when you join a bank, you'll do so much compliance training. They will tell you situations where you should be flagging concerns, where you shouldn't take any action, where you should take action. But that is actually really important training because that protects you against losing your job. So fundamentally, if you make an error at your desk, you know, an administrative error, you can recover from it. But if it's something that's potentially career limiting, think twice before you take action, you know, to do with compliance or regulation.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Yeah, and you know, actually a couple, a couple things that that brings up. One is when you screw up, and you you will screw up, right? It's it's gonna happen. Actually, it was interesting. I was at um, I was at one of the investment banks last summer, and it was kind of fun because I was doing their A-to-A promote training just for a couple days. Like I said, all right, we've all we've all done this for a little bit now, right? Tell me about your biggest screw up. And I told them about some of mine. It was actually just kind of fun. And every everyone had one. I sent, I sent that email to the wrong person, made myself look like an idiot. Like it's it's gonna happen. You're working long hours, you're tired, like still always check some, always check stuff, don't do anything stupid. But accept the fact that at some point, you're probably gonna make some kind of mistake. I think, Debs, you make the right point. Owning that mistake and dealing with it in the correct professional manner is really important to resolving it correctly. Like the last thing you want to do is try to hide from it and pretend like it wasn't you or pass the buck. You look a lot more professional if you say, I'm sorry, I like I screwed up. Here's how I'm gonna fix it, or if I don't know how to fix it, let's talk about how to fix it. I want to fix it, you know, just just own it and resolve it the right way. Don't try to don't try to hide it. If you do that, I I actually do think that is genuinely career limiting because people are just aren't gonna trust you.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Absolutely. Any other top tips for new recruits?

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Another uh just on a on a note of something not to do, actually. Okay, so on that A to A training we were all talking about, right? What's the biggest screw up you you had? I think this was it, I think this was early days at Aries and not at Lehman. I but it's it happened such a long time ago, and I think I I've just blocked it out of my memory. I don't remember which which firm it was at. Uh I want to say the the setup was I was calling, I was calling uh someone at you know another investment bank to try to get a bit of information on a company. And of course, I'm not a trader, right? I've never I've never been a trader. I don't speak trader lingo. And there is a there is a trading language. Long story short, just calling up to have a casual conversation managed to execute some kind of trade on behalf of the firm. And they got like a trade order, and they're like, hey, did you like buy this or sell this? And I'm like, no, what are you talking about? And they're like, oh no, you can't talk like that. Like you, you know, you basically smile and nod, and that's and that's like executing, that's enough for them to execute the trade. And I'm like, oh shit, no one told me that. Uh and it all got it all got unwound and reversed. But that was one where I think for you know, a day or two, I'm like, okay, this this might actually be the end. Uh again, I think another note on that, that kind of like attention to detail, you know, does you make the right point about compliance training? Yeah. I'd say as a as an overarching theme, just start, start from basic principles. Like, does something feel right or feel wrong? And if it feels wrong, like it probably is. So start from your basic like, does this feel right or wrong? And then layer on all the all the compliance training, all the really specific stuff for both the finance market and the particular firm you're at.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Great. So, Graham, we have just really drilled down there into some of our past experiences that still haunt us on where we've made big mistakes. Um, let's flip it now and talk about things that we think have either gone well for us or we've seen others do really well that makes new hires stand out in a really positive way. What can we learn?

SPEAKER_00 16:34

So I think you you kind of have to think about these jobs in two components. You have to think about the actual job itself and some of the technical stuff, attention to detail we've just been talking about. And you also have to think about the the team component and some extent the the social component as well. Um and first and foremost, I think as a new starter or as a summer analyst, just taking advantage of every opportunity you're given is first and foremost the most important thing you can do. And I I say that because literally in the summer intern training I was doing last week, the the interns that I was teaching were getting invites to their weekly investment committees or to some other team's investment committees. And I kind of overheard them saying, Should I, should I accept all these? Like, what do I do? And I just looked at them and like, yes, yes, you accept all of them and you go to each one of those that you that you possibly can. Assuming you don't have a direct boss saying, hey, you can't go to investing committee this week because you got something else to do. But those, what let's take an investing job as an example, like those are the those are the formats where you're gonna learn the most about just how people think, how the firm invests, what it's what its attitude toward various companies, various industries are. Like ultimately all the work that you're doing in your day job. So you're a junior person at some kind of investment shop, whether it's private equity, private credit, like whatever, you're doing a bunch of firsthand diligence on a company. It's really important not just to do the work, but to be able to understand why that work's important and what questions your firm is going to have on it. So taking advantage of every learning opportunity, not just the learning that, like, say we're we're providing through like a training, a training course, but just participating in as many of those venues as you possibly can. I'd also say, you know, speak up and ask questions where you think those questions are going to add some kind of value. Like no one likes the person who's just talking for the sake of talking. So don't ask a question just for questions' sake. But if you have a question where you say, hey, like I'm I'm trying to understand this trend here. Can someone, can someone help me understand it? That's a lot more useful than just saying, can someone explain to me what this whole analysis is, or I don't really know what's going on. Like, I actually do think I know people say there are no stupid questions. I think sometimes there are stupid questions. Like, don't ask a question that these days you could quickly go to Google or GPT and just learn, you know, real base. Like, what's an EV to enterprise, what's an EV to EBITDA evaluation multiple? So like don't ask someone in a firm that. Like you should know that already. Like you've been with me or Debs and you've gotten a job already. But if you're trying to understand, say, all right, I'm looking at this comp set and I I'm really trying to understand why this company has a different multiple than this one. I've done some work trying to figure it out, but I can't. Does anyone know what's going on? Like asking questions that demonstrate that you have some kind of understanding about what's happening and also some genuine interest, I think is I think is really important. Um so saying yes to stuff, being available, being reliable. If someone asks you to do something, do it. Don't say you're gonna do something and then and then not. That's the fastest way to just not make enemies, but just not get the not get the return offer. Um let's see what else, what what have you got on your list, Dubs? I mean, I got I got other stuff, but keen to get your take too.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Um yeah, so I think my my favorite tip, and it's kind of an obvious one, uh, is you know, if you're going in for meetings with clients or even internal meetings, prep before you go because it shows you're taking the meeting seriously and you're not wasting people's time. Um I think there is an assumption um that um as an analyst you should be able to blag your way through a situation that you know you can just make stuff up if you're not sure. Um is a really quick way to erode trust if you do that. So I really valued it when I had meetings with new analysts or I took them to client meetings and they had really prepared for it. It showed a bit like what you were saying, that they were interesting, they were engaged, um, but that also they were kind of investing their own time in, you know, getting the most out of the situation or the meeting. Um, and I can think of quite a few people who I've worked with who have demonstrated that, and that carried them, you know, very quickly up the career ladder. So that for me is uh a really easy way to to stand out in a in a good way as a new analyst.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, one of the actually one of the interesting things about a job like this is you get some pretty high-level early exposure. I mean, in my in my first year out of school working, I was sitting in boardrooms meeting chief executives of real, like real companies. Like there aren't there aren't that many industries where you get that kind of exposure that early. So make the most of it. Don't just be dead weight in a meeting room. But again, don't be the annoying person in the meeting room either. Like speak up only when it makes sense to do so, when you've got a genuine question, genuine insight to add. But be the person that you're you're you're the one demonstrating you're you're interested, you're engaged, and Yeah, ultimately just be just be helpful. Like it's not a lot of this advice I know is pretty is pretty basic. Um, but it's also it's also pretty important. I mean, the other, the flip side for me, not the flip side, I think the as important or thing they need to do in addition is actually I'm I'm with one of my I'm sitting with one of my friends right now. We both worked at Aries for like a decade together. And I was telling him about, you know, some of the stuff I'm doing now. I was telling him about some of the topics we're talking about in the podcast today. And we were talking about, okay, what do you think? Like, what do you think you need to do to be successful like early on? Especially because it's so, you know, places are so big now, NS classes are so big. I do think it's pretty easy to get to just get kind of lost in the sauce and not really, and not really stand out. And I think you stand out both by doing a really good job in the actual job. And also just being the person who is there and present and kind of adding to team culture and kind of team values. So I was talking to my buddy, and the example he gave is he's like, you know, because he was at Aries even before I was, and he's like, you know, we were, I don't know, 30 people in LA, and new people were joining every week. And he's like, once a month, I'll go down and I grab some beer and some wine, and I was kind of responsible for starting like this office social hour just to get new people, new people meeting. And he's like, and that he's like, that was a thing for me that solidified me as like a really important part of the team and not just another associate. You know, so on on that, I'm not saying go buy a bunch of drinks for everyone in your office, but at the same time, if you're if you're out at say, you know, some kind of team event, don't be the person to go home early. Like don't, I'm not saying I'm not saying get get the drunkest or anything like that, but you know, stay, stay till the end. Be there, be there, be engaged, you know, be up for kind of hanging out with people. Because ultimately, these are people that whatever job you're in, you're gonna spend a lot of time with, and you kind of want people you can just go out and have a good time with as well. So engaging in some of the extracurricular stuff, I really think is as important as the actual job stuff too.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

For sure. And actually, we used to have a no-joke policy because you're working with these people for su for such long hours, it is intensive. But fundamentally, you need to get on with each other and you need the technical skills for sure. But that's kind of expected that if you've been hired, those technical skills are your ticket to the job. But actually, in terms of progressing, you need to be able to get on with the uh other people, you need to be a team player, you know, people need to enjoy spending time with you. Now, obviously, you know, you have to be yourself, but you have to also be a little bit humble, recognize the fact that you're joining as the junior in the team, you know, you don't know more than everyone else. Um, you can definitely bring something to the party. But, you know, just being personable, being warm, being enthusiastic gets you so far. Um, I think the assumption is that if you're in investment banking, you have to have really sharp elbows and try and prove that you're the best as soon as you arrive. And that's really not the case. You've got to prove that you can work in the team, that you can coordinate with them, that they can delegate to you. So don't underestimate that part of the job, in my view.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Indeed.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Okay, Graham. Top tips, top hacks, how to survive your first year in investment banking. Go for it.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Okay. Um, I mean, for me, I always needed to find some kind of like in terms of hacks, like how do you survive? I need to find some kind of way to maintain my physical, mental balance, and sanity. So I would always try to do some kind of physical activity. Admittedly, I think my first year, my actual first year investment banking, I probably did very little, but you know, you can do a lot when you're 21 and sleep deprived yourself and whatnot. Although I do feel like that aspect of the job is getting a little bit better. So find time to go to the gym. So I, when I was at Lehman in London, at least there was a gym, there was like a Lehman gym in the office. And even if it was going down to do like a 20-minute run, you know what? That's that's something. It's better, it's better than nothing. So maintain physical sanity. Um, just be available. Make sure you are available, responsive. It's not necessarily the most fun part of the job, but especially at a junior level. Your job is to be available and to help get stuff done. And sometimes that does mean getting on calls late at night, responding to emails. Like I remember, I remember at one point I was responding to emails in like in a handful like nightclubs in a visa one year because a deal was happening. I'm like, you know what? Like, you know, I don't wanna, I don't necessarily want to be doing this right now, but it's important that I at least do my part to kind of keep the process moving. So don't sit on emails forever that people are relying on you for. Just like, just make sure you're getting your stuff done. Um I don't know. What else, Dubs? What do you got?

SPEAKER_01 27:05

It's funny when you're saying that I I remember replying to a quiet email on a chairlift somewhere in Austria, I'm asking. It's not that same thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Steam is great for work because you have so much chairlift time. Like that, yeah. It really is. You can you can do accomplishment chairlift.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Yeah. I mean, I'm not saying you should give up all your holidays and be working the whole time, but yeah, there there is a balance. And actually, with that in mind, my other top tip is sleep. For me, it's really important I get sleep. Uh, there are times when you're working to deadlines, you know, and you'll be working very, very late. As soon as you have the opportunity to stock up on that sleep. Um it's part of you know looking after your mental health, but it's also, you know, it allows you to recharge before you get back to the next block of work and it reduces your risk of making mistakes. So I would always prioritize sleep. Obviously, you want to enjoy yourself, you know, go out and socialize. But weekends, sleep, sleep, sleep if you can.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Yep. Uh okay, something else just came to mind. Um, make use of your calendar in a real way. I remember when I was, when I was in college, I didn't really use one. I just kind of thought to myself, I'm like, I don't need an actual calendar. I know what I'm doing. And then you pretty quickly get overwhelmed with meetings and trips and you know, whatever, whatever else you got going on. So from from literally from day one, make sure you are properly using your calendar. It'll probably be an Outlook or you know, whatever. Uh, but make sure that you're staying on top of everything that's in there, using that properly. If you have, if you have a like an assistant or PA working with them to make sure everyone's on the same page and coordinated, like just being being really focused with that kind of stuff from an early point is actually quite important and quite helpful. It's easy, it's easy for stuff to slip through the cracks if you don't stay on top of it.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Excellent. So I think those are our top tips tips for success, aren't they? Oh, that's all you need to do to progress in your first year in investment banking.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

That's it. There's literally, there's literally nothing else. I mean, really the the advice for me is pretty is pretty basic and it kind of goes back to what I was saying a few minutes ago. Like just use your follow your gut for a lot of stuff. And if something feels like the right thing to do, like, oh, should I like, should I respond to this email this late at night when I want to go to bed because it's important, like, yes, do it. If it feels a little bit funny sending something out that you don't think you're supposed to, like, check. It's okay to, by the way, it's okay to ask people for, ask people for for help in a way that doesn't require too much from them. Like, don't ask someone to do something for you, but it's okay to check, hey, am I saying this to the right person? I noticed they're external. I just want to validate before before I send it out. Do that. That's that's completely fine. People appreciate that kind of question, that kind of assistance way more than having to undo some kind of some kind of mistake. So just follow your gut, be available, be a team player, uh, participate in in team activities as part of your group, as part of your firm, show up to everything. And whether you're a summer intern or you're starting a full-time position, just take every opportunity to learn as much as you possibly can. Join the investment committees, join the discussions, go to whatever meetings you get invited to. Don't, don't sit there and say, should I, shouldn't I? No, you should. You should. If you have, if you're not putting something else important off, then take those opportunities, go to the meetings, and learn as much as you can. And I also think that's kind of the fun part of the job, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Absolutely agree. Wise words there from Graham. And thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

All right, everyone. We will see you next week. Take care.