What Denzel Washington, Billy Bob Thornton and Sandra Bullock Are Really Like On Set | John Lee Hancock

What Denzel Washington, Billy Bob Thornton and Sandra Bullock Are Really Like On Set | John Lee Hancock

How movies are made, what it’s really like working with actors like Denzel Washington and Sandra Bullock, and the truth about screenwriting and directing in Hollywood.

Oscar winning films. A list actors. Real Hollywood behind the scenes.

Hollywood director and screenwriter John Lee Hancock, known for The Blind Side, Saving Mr. Banks, and The Rookie, sits down with Aimee Mayo to talk about filmmaking, the screenwriting process, and what actually happens on a movie set.

From Sandra Bullock’s Academy Award winning performance in The Blind Side to directing multiple Oscar winning actors like Denzel Washington, Jared Leto, and Rami Malek, John Lee shares how movies are made, how actors really work on set, and why some of the best scenes come from unexpected mistakes.

They break down the filmmaking process, working with actors, Hollywood storytelling, and how scripts turn into movies people connect with.

In this episode you’ll hear

How movies are made and what directors actually do on set
What it’s like working with Denzel Washington, Sandra Bullock, and Billy Bob Thornton
Screenwriting tips and how to write a screenplay that gets made
The truth about directing actors with different styles
Why most movies never get made and what separates great scripts
Behind the scenes stories from The Blind Side and Saving Mr. Banks
The impact of AI and algorithms on Hollywood and creativity

If you’re interested in filmmaking, screenwriting, Hollywood behind the scenes, or the movie making process, this episode gives you a real look inside the industry.

Wait. What?! with Aimee Mayo is a podcast featuring real conversations about music, movies, storytelling, and the creative process.

Subscribe so you never miss an episode 

Aimee's links: https://linktr.ee/waitwhatpod

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_03 0:00

How's he managing three Oscar women actors in one movie? Does Jared Leto stay in character? I can't imagine Denzel dealing with that. Didn't Sandra Bullet win an Oscar? What if it's going off the rails from where you thought you were going?

SPEAKER_00 0:16

As a director, you you're I'm not exaggerating when I say, you know, you're making 750 decisions a day.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

How much of the time, like, did the actors try to change dialogue?

SPEAKER_00 0:28

I would say three-fourths of the dialogue words, sometimes they don't come out of the actor's mouth. Right.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Yeah, what do you do when you're directing a movie with the dog?

SPEAKER_00 0:36

So we had to block the entire scene around the pig and Kat and Costner and, you know, with Billy Bob. You know, he would say, John Lee, listen, man, everything's musical in my brain. So I love line reading. If we don't get this in the next five minutes, it's gonna cost us this many thousands of dollars.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

I love like a movie that has real southern accents like Sling Blade does. No place gets as messed up as like the sound, like Alabama, Georgia.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Behavior and mistakes are the things I love most.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Hey,

Meet Filmmaker John Lee Hancock

SPEAKER_03 1:22

it's PlayFlip with I'm in Mayo. Today I'm with John Lee Hancock, who is crazy talented and like a Renaissance movie man, director, screenwriter, screen adapter, producer. Like you do everything. And the movies, there's so many. You've had such a great career and still have such a, you're still like churning stuff out like crazy. Like, it's hard to even pick a favorite. But the blind side, like, that movie is one of the biggest sports dramas of all time. I mean, everybody knows that movie.

SPEAKER_04 1:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

And then the rookie, that's like Dennis Quaid's favorite movie he's ever been in.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

That's he's told me that before. That's nice to hear.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

He says it all the time. He's got a big poster, like right when you walk in of the rookie. And um, but he loved working with you. He's told me that. And then, like, didn't Sandra Bullock win an Oscar?

SPEAKER_00 2:19

She did, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

And then the Alamo, that seems like that one would have been just hard. Like, that's just a big story.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Yeah, it's a lot. I don't think I've probably ever had more fun making a movie. Now, the post on the movie and what happened after was problematic and troublesome and ugh a pain in the ass. But uh making the movie, I was like a kid in a sandbox. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

But so sometimes like are movies, is it one extreme to the other about the experience?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Yeah, the experience is kind of when you look back at it, and I've been doing this for a long time. So when you look back at it now, the experiences, in addition to being fond memories, really kind of w they set the calendar for your life in many ways. When you're going one project to the next. And so many reference points I have are I remember that that must have been this year because I was in Atlanta doing the blind side or whatever. And so for better or worse, yeah, I'm I've got little pins in my in my uh maps and calendars that basically specify kind of this was a long time that I lived in this place, and then a long time I lived in this place. Aaron Powell Which is also which is also quite cool. I have to say, one of the things I like about the job a lot is being able to go, and it's not just visiting a place. I've never been a big vacationer because I after about a few days, I just want to work something. And I I am not going to go sit on the beach every day or something.

SPEAKER_03 3:49

I'm

Building A Grounded Vampire Spy Series

SPEAKER_03 3:50

the same. I can't sit still long.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Yeah, but if you go, like I mean, I was just in for this this crazy AMC TV show that I created. It's like um I found myself in Manchester, UK in northern England. And, you know, for seven months.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

Oh, wow, for seven months. Is that your first TV show?

SPEAKER_00 4:08

No, I've been involved with a couple of others, but it's been a long time.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

And it's Talamasca?

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

And then it's Anne Rice.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Yes. Although it's she didn't ever write a book about the Talamasca. She just created an organization in her other books called the Talamasca.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

And that was part of- I was wondering about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

That was part of the reason that I was drawn to it, to be honest, because I'm a I'm an Anne Rice fan, but I had really, when I first got the call, had only read a couple of books of hers, and she's got tons. I mean, she was prolific as hell and really, really entertaining and good writer and creating characters and stuff. But I said, gosh, the last thing I want to do is to jump into a book uh that's existing about the Talamasca because it's kind of not the world I do.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Yeah, yeah, it's a new thing. Yeah, so there's like fantasy sapphire.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Yeah. I mean, and but I looked at it and read all the Talamasca stuff and really enjoyed it. And she had just kind of set a foundation for something that and so I looked at it as like, what if she had written a book about the Talamasca? I would want it to be this. I wanted it to be more grounded. And I mean, I just what I pitched was I want to do Jean Le Carey with a vampire every once in a while thrown in.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

I love that. So so did you go in and pitch this whole idea?

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Yeah, Mark Johnson, who's a longtime friend, he actually produced the first movie of mine that got made when I was a screenwriter called A Perfect World.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

Oh, per with Kevin Costner.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Wevin Costner. And so Mark and I have known one another for a long time and have done several projects together. And we did a movie a few years back, right at the start of COVID or right when COVID, yeah, right before COVID started, called The Little Things with Dennis.

SPEAKER_03 5:42

I love the little things, and that's got three Oscar winners in that movie. Yes. Because I always would think about you like pulling my hair out? Well, how's he managing three Oscar women actors in one movie?

SPEAKER_00 5:55

It's hard. I mean, there I got along very well with all of them and had a good working relationship, but they all have such kind of different ways they work. And so you kind of you're accommodating one, but then the other one, you don't want to fly in the face of him, and then there's him who does it completely differently. So it's just kind of dealing up the middle.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

What do they do if they both do it differently, but they're doing a scene together? Like one, like does Jared Leto stay in character? Yes, yes. So that's gotta I can't imagine Denzel dealing with that.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Like Well, yes and no. I mean, I think it's just it's about as long as it doesn't feel pretentious in any way and it feels all about the work. Um, I mean, they're all actors, actors. Yeah. So they want the scene to work, they want it to be as real as possible. And so, for instance, the first time that Denzel's uh character, Joe Deacon, meets Leto's character, we on purpose had them not talk about anything before. And so the first time they met was on camera. Yes. Because in the movie, in the story, it was the first time they saw one another and laid eyes on one another.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

And that stuff, you can feel that came to you.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Yeah, yeah. And the scene works well because of it, I think.

SPEAKER_03 7:06

So Yeah, I love that movie and I love the ending of that movie. And it has to make you feel it has to make you just feel so fulfilled to have three Oscar winning actors you wrote it. You know what I mean? Like you wrote to me, it's probably a different kind of feeling if you write it. Well, I don't know. Then I'm just guessing. Like, if you write it or direct it, what would you be more proud of if you only did one or the other on a movie?

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Wow, that's a good question. I think it depends on the how the movie turns out, to be honest. Um, but uh I love doing both. I mean, in some but I'm I'm kind of all over the map. I mean, sometimes there'll be something that I that I'll look at and go, I really want to write this, but somebody else would do a better job directing it.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

Oh wow, are you serious? I didn't know, like, so do you feel vice versa?

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Yeah. And so, I mean, I've been really I think the one of the most fortunate turns of fate that happened for me was with the rookie. Um, because I had set up something at Warner Brothers, a book to adapt, to direct, and I hadn't really directed yet. And so Warner Brothers, I had a deal with him, and they were like, okay, fine, we'll, you know, write the script and then we'll see how it goes from there, if we can get it made or not, and maybe you can direct it, maybe you won't, maybe we'll give you some money and make you go away. But at any rate, uh, Mark Johnson, who produced the rookie same guy who produced the rookie, came to me and said, He said, Would you read a script for me? And I said, Yeah, sure, sure. He goes, It's the Texas story, is why I'm asking. And I wanted to make sure it feels authentic because this guy from Portland, Oregon wrote it. Oh, gosh, it's a true story. And I went, okay. And so I was like, I guess I can guess about all the tropes and stereotypes that are going to be about Texas in there. And I read this beautiful script by Mike Rich, who I said, well, uh the guy obviously did his research, spent time there, and he has the voice of West Texas down. He has it down. And um, so I beautiful script. To Mark, I go, Yeah, make the movie. I think it's fantastic. And he goes, Well, here's the thing. You've proven that as a writer, you can go into a room and get someone to buy your idea and pay you to write something. You really don't have much experience going into a room and pitching yourself as a director. So look at it this way. Why don't you come in and pitch yourself as a director? We don't have one yet. They're meeting with lots of fancy directors and and everything else, but you should do that. And I went, I thought about it and I go, you know what, you're right. I should, because I'm not gonna get the job. He goes, You're not gonna get the job.

SPEAKER_04 9:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

He goes, it's a sports movie, and because of that, there's no international in sports movies in terms of box office. So they're gonna want a very precise price point on it, and they're gonna want somebody who's done this several times to keep them on schedule, et cetera.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

And so you're not getting a gig. And I went, okay, great.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

So you went in there and did it.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

I went in, I prepared for it. I go, this is a fantastic exercise.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

I thought show me how you did it.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Well, I mean, yeah, I I mean, I I went in and Nina Jacobson, who's a very well-known producer now, was the head of production at Disney at the time. And so Mark and uh other producers were there as well. And we sat down and I just told him how I thought it should look, how I wanted it to look. Um, I also told him, I said, look, I'm sure there's going to be input from people uh who are going to want to muck with the script, but the script's really good, so don't mess with it too much. I said, don't listen to somebody from New York who says they'd been to Tex spent time in Texas when all they when all they did was have a layover, layover at DFW or something. So, you know, listen because these voices are authentic. And so, you know, and I told them, we're, you know, gonna shoot on film. This is kind of before the digital stuff. Shoot on film. I even said we're gonna change the stock of the film to Fujifilm for the last act. I mean, I I went into great detail about all this.

SPEAKER_03 11:07

And you showed them you had a vision for it.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Yeah, I just did enthusiasm more than anything. And I was from Texas and I don't know. Anyway, it was one of those things where I was there for an hour in the meeting, and that was it. And so Nina said, Okay, well, thanks for coming in. And so I left one. That was really fun. I'm glad I did that because I got to kind of propose my vision for something on the page.

The Rookie And Learning To Pitch

SPEAKER_04 11:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

And and that was really fulfilling. And then I was in my truck driving home, and the phone, my phone rings, and it's Mark Johnson who says, I hope you were serious about wanting to direct a movie because you just got the gig.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

Oh my gosh. And I said amazing.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

And he said that Nina Jacobson's had said when I left the room, they were all talking, and she goes, Well, I hate to say this, and I know it puts my job on the line, but I think it's obvious who we should hire. And it's that guy. It's John.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

I feel like these days it's hard to find people that'll put their job on the line.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Would never happen.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

Yeah, these days people are like too everybody just wants to do what this person said to do or what just worked.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

What just worked. Basically, we're all from a development standpoint, from a writing standpoint, from a you know, from a studio standpoint, we're all just very slow AI.

SPEAKER_03 12:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

We rely on what's happened in the past and try to fuse it in some way that we think will work again.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

Yeah. That's one thing. Like, um, I started reading screenplays maybe five years ago, and it's funny because like you what's the best screenplay you ever read?

SPEAKER_00 12:40

There are a bunch.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

Do you have a little file in the screen? No, I mean I don't I don't know, I don't think routinely about it. Oh that you read once just with you.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

There are several that I've I've tried to make and I've not been able to.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

For different reasons.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Yeah, there was one there was one, I can't remember the name of it, the title of the screenplay, but it was a true story about Los Angeles in the 30s, I believe. And when Los Angeles was the most corrupt city in America, like far out outrunning Chicago and New York and different places like that. And um it was this true story of this guy named Clifford Clinton. Uh and anyway, he had a he had a restaurant called Clifton's, and he was kind of a do-gooder and a really good citizen and gave free food to people, but had this fun kind of carnival, jungly kind of place downtown, and people would go, and he looked around at all the corruption, and every cop was on the take, and he just did what you've done, which was he set up a microphone and bought his way onto the airwaves, a local radio station at midnight some night or whatever, you know, and said, I'm just talking to you.

SPEAKER_03 13:53

Oh, why?

SPEAKER_00 13:54

I'm just telling you what I'm seeing out there and why it upsets me.

SPEAKER_03 13:57

Oh, that's so good.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

And all hell broke loose. Because people don't know. Oh, his house was bombed. It was a it was this amazing thing that happened. Anyway, William Goldman, one of the greatest screenwriters of the year. Yes, yes, yes, wrote a script and it was just so damn good. You know, and I I remember a couple, I think several people have tried to get it made over the years and just never quite.

SPEAKER_03 14:20

It happens a lot, doesn't it? Like, do you know? Okay, here's a question about that Barbie movie. I heard that Barbie movie, like they just kept giving it to people, you know, like um to you try this, you know, then they would just people, so many different people worked on it. Yeah. I've wondered, like, so say somebody worked, I don't know how many writers, but it was a bunch on that one. Yeah. So say somebody worked on it and then they did something that made it to the final movie, but then these other people get credit for it.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Like Well, you yeah, the credit system is confusing. That's gotta be rough. Well, what happens is that I'm happy for this because way back when the Writers Guild got in negotiations, got back from the studios the ability and the right to say who the writer is. Because what would happen is that studios, if they were making a movie and you'd have like the studio boss's girlfriend who all of a sudden would be, you go, who that per who is that person, you know, kind of thing. Yeah. So the writers' guild took autonomy over that, which is a good thing. Trying to figure out percentages and stuff, trying to kind of numerically be specific about art is a weird thing. Because you mean, from writing a song, you know, like you do so beautifully, it might be somebody writes the lyric or what, you know, the lyrics and whatever, and somebody has like this is the through line of the bass and the da da da. And somebody might come in with what one little thing.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

But it changes everything.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

You know, what about this instrument? And what about what if it changed tempo here or whatever? And all of a sudden, chink, you lock in. Yeah. Now, in the world of movies, that person would never get a credit.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

Yeah. Well, like we've had this argument, like, okay, so we we've written songs where we took it in the studio and on the demo, like somebody just added just a killer piano part or something. Well, sometimes it might become like one of the, you know, the main lick of the song, but this guy's a paid musician. He's not at listed as a songwriter. Right. And I've always wondered like songs that like if somebody samples a song, say they were gonna sample like um Fleetwood Mac or something. Well, that's not good because Lindsay Buckingham would have been playing it. But say they were gonna sample something, maybe the guitar player in the band wrote the lick that, you know, but he's not getting paid. This the person that sang it is getting paid because like their name's on the thing.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

What happens is we just push money to whoever represents that song and you guys figure it out.

SPEAKER_03 16:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

We're not gonna be trying to get in touch with the the session artist who came in and played guitar on that and pay him. We're trusting that he's if he had if if money is owed him for her, they'll get it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

It's funny because there are a lot of things that are the same, but there's so many things like with movies. I love, I've loved movies. My dad owned a video store. You know, I've just loved movies. That was our thing. We went to the movies. And like the movies, like I don't know, like you're saying about you're looking at your life like I was here, you know, during this time or I was there during this time. Yeah. That it's like they're a soundtrack to your life, kind of.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Yeah. And when you w and when you go back and watch them, which, you know, usually I I don't. I don't really like to watch my movies because I What if it's on TV and you're flipping? Yeah. Two things I'll say about that. One is, you know, sometimes if you're flipping around and it's on TV, you might watch five minutes because you go, oh, I like this scene. Oh, I remember that day and it was a beautiful day. And though, and so you enjoy it. You know, invariably you're gonna come to something where you want you want it back. Like you go, I should have gone a longer lens on that. What was I thinking? But you know what? It's we, you know, hopefully we get better and better and better and learn from our mistakes. Or we just change and I mean, I would make a very different movie than the rookie now, I'm sure. I mean, very different. I would make a different movie, I'm sure. I don't know if it'd be as good. It would just be different.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

Yeah, that's what Paul Simon was, he's my favorite songwriter, and he was talking about like somebody was saying, like, you know, a lot of these like songwriters like Jimmy Webb, we were listening to Glenn Campbell. They wrote some of their masterpieces when they're 20, you know, like so many of them. And Paul Simon was doing this talk about like he um his songs, like they didn't stay as commercial like after I I just love so many of his songs, but after Simon and Garfunkel, like when he went off on his own, he kind of branched out, but he had to keep his self-interested, you know what I mean? And keep growing.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Like the challenge, you see lots and lots of artists who their best work is early in their careers and and you know, and it's so it's a fight because people go, oh, well, they get fat and happy then, and they don't have anything, you know, to write about anymore. And that's maybe partially true. So I think you have to engage with kind of what's vital to you as best you're able. I mean, if you can't the day I can't sit at a typewriter and make myself laugh or cry, that's the day I quit.

SPEAKER_03 19:41

That's the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Get lost in it completely.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

Yeah. I mean, like, quit. So what do you think's harder to sit down like with a blank page? Say you're gonna make a movie and and you're gonna sit down with a blank page and just start a story or adapt?

SPEAKER_00 19:58

They're both difficult for different reasons.

SPEAKER_03 20:00

I don't know that I don't know that that many people maybe they do and I just don't know, but you to me seem like a very unique case that you can adapt or you can write from scratch your own thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

I would say in in many ways, writing an original is easier if you have that great idea. Yeah. And if you've kind of broken it out and you know how the story breaks, probably not not unlike you with the song, it's gonna be here, and then I hear it now, you know, and then you want to write it.

SPEAKER_03 20:28

Yeah. I would think it's easier to go from scratch, but I don't like saying it.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Because well, the first thing with an adaptation is you've got a book. Well, the first thing you have to do, I mean, one, you you know, read it multiple times and and circle stuff that you love that you go, this has to be in. This has to be in. And you know, then have my notes and all the books and things I've adapted. But at the end of it, which 70% do I remove?

SPEAKER_03 20:53

I know that's the that's the thing, like that's just what it is. Yeah. I was trying to adapt my book for a while, and then I realized, okay, this has so many hurdles to it because not only am I I I wrote the book, but not only that, it's my family. I mean, it just like it was just layer after layer of confusion.

SPEAKER_04 21:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

And so like I but I was like watching everything. I watched the interview with you, I watched an interview with Eric Roth, and I love I love hearing how people's processes are different.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Everybody's different.

SPEAKER_03 21:25

I mean, and and it made me think like, how many different movies do you think one book could be, depending on who as many as there are writers who want to do it? Isn't that fascinating? It because you got a book, it's it's already right there, and somebody's told the story, but then like it could be so many other movies.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

But don't you find that when you're writing a story, writing a song that's a story, that it's kind of that one thing that opens the door for you? And sometimes it might be as simple as because if you looked at a at a Song as I want to cure all the things I want to accomplish in this, as opposed to what it distills down to and hits you in the face.

Adaptations, Originals, And Story Focus

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

And and so you go, you know, with the blind side, it was really, I said, I really want to write a mother-son story. That's it. So that helped me with taking my Michael Lewis's beautiful book and to be able to go, keep your eye on your prize. Keep your eye on your life.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

See, that's where that started. I can when you said that it totally clicked about a mother-son story.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

Because that at the heart of it, that's what that is. I mean, it's about sports, but at the heart of it.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

At the start, and that's why I had when we're talking at the very start of it, and the prologue is talking about sports. And it was always the book was always two different things that beautiful work beautifully in a book where you can weave them throughout and go and cut over here and talk about the NFL and then come back and everything. It, you know, Michael's a brilliant writer. But you can't do that really in a two-hour movie. And so with knowing that I needed some football, I said, okay, here's the thing. Right off the bat, it's going to be narrated by Leanne Tuey. It's going to be football by Leanne. Because she, her voice is in every part of this.

SPEAKER_03 23:18

Yeah. And a narrator can solve a lot of problems, can't they?

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Yeah. I mean, and anyway, I used it just as bookends. I mean, I used it at the start and then at the very end. And that was it.

SPEAKER_03 23:28

You know, there's that guy, I I won't remember his name. He's the famous guy that is known to do the um, he was in adaptation. He was the guy that was the teacher. His name might be James, the screenwriting teacher guy. Do you know who I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Yeah, Brian Cox played him. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

Yes, Brian Cox played him.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Yeah, who was in the rookie.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

And well, that guy, yes, yes, I love Brian Cox.

SPEAKER_04 23:52

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_03 23:53

That guy, like Chris really likes that guy, and I don't like that guy. Um, I not personally, but yeah, he to me gave bad advice, and but he gave it constantly and all the time and told everybody, like, no voiceovers. Yeah. Well, voiceovers, I realize that really screwed the reason I don't like like it is it screwed me up for a long time trying to do like do some writing because but if you go back, so many big movies have voiceovers.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Well, I mean, my my company's named after a line from Badlands, Terry Malik, one of my favorite directors, and you know, who used voiceover. And the thing is, is that you have to be if the voiceover is telling you something that you damn well should be watching instead of listening to, it's bad voiceover.

SPEAKER_03 24:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

If it's providing a third different view of the story.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

Like Ferris Bueller. Yeah, yeah. Like he's giving you a little viewpoint.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

He's he's I mean, you know, and that's so specific. It's yes, he's color commentating on his life.

SPEAKER_03 24:57

And it's adding the whole world. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, so that really, you know, people can give like bad advice about writing that people take to heart. There's another, when I was writing my book, there was another book I read that like I just wanted to go in every bookstore and throw this book out because it cost me so much time. It was called the first five pages. Yeah. And you want to talk about self-doubt, then you read this like and it's basically builds up the pressure it could never be good enough. You know, like the people are only gonna read five pages. I mean, and that's terrifying. Like trying to make something perfect. That was a that was not good. Because I think self-doubt might be the biggest killer.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Yeah, I think that's true. And I think that as much as we all I mean, you know, I have a bunch of those books, and I I like when somebody qu tries to quantify here's how you do it, whatever it is. Here's how you write a hit song, you know? And yet it's there's they're you know, they're they're both true and untrue, and you can say, well, this little thing here that he or she says is like that's interesting to me. That speaks to me. Now, this other chapter is bullshit.

SPEAKER_04 26:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

But so, you know, and and I don't read that many of them anymore. I read screenplays that I, you know, that you read and you and you do make an assessment fairly early on. Are am I in good hands or not?

SPEAKER_03 26:16

How long will you keep reading on a screenplay? Like if you're not that in in 10 pages, how far will you go?

SPEAKER_00 26:22

It depends. If it's something I've been exclusively offered, for instance, I'm incredibly grateful that somebody that I don't know at a company is sending me this, even though I mean a lot of times I'll say I'm not interested in in that world and so I don't have to read it. But if it's something that they really wanted me to read, then I'll I'll I'll read it all. I will. But you kind of know 25 pages in your level of interest. Yeah. But you I'll go ahead and finish it just so I can see.

SPEAKER_03 26:53

Yeah. Have you been surprised with a screenplay like that that did a big turn?

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

Like that you were like you weren't that into?

SPEAKER_00 27:01

But yeah, I can't remember the name of it and I can't remember the circumstances, but I remember w reading one screenplay and I said, guys, your your story starts on page 70 in the script.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

That right there is if you look at well, if you look at you look at the the the legacy of the written word for the movie Saving Mr. Banks, which I didn't write. Kelly Marcel wrote it and did it beautifully. I mean, and it was a script that was sent to me because Disney was meeting with five directors. They were gonna have sit-downs with five directors only, and you know, we're gonna select one from these five.

SPEAKER_03 27:37

So each one of y'all read it and then went in to talk about it and told your vision of what it would be?

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Yeah. And I was sent the script and Sean Bailey was the head of production there. So, you know, I'd known I'd obviously done the rookie in the Alamo at Disney and had a good relationship with him and all that kind of stuff. But he really wanted me to come in, and so I said, I I I don't know, I was busy writing on something else, and I go, I just don't have time. I go, what's, you know. And my agent had said, Yeah, it's kind of behind the scenes the making of Mary Poppins. And I said, I don't even like Mary Poppins, the movie. So I was like, I'm never this is there, man, this is wrong, wrong, wrong. And so finally my agent said, I said, but I have to read it, I know, because it's rude for me not to read it when Sean has said you're one of the five people we're bringing in. Of course I've got to read it. I mean, you know, I'm the take take your take your career seriously, you know, be a professional. And so I went, okay. And that was one after another. I go, okay, I'm gonna read this damn thing, and then I don't have to deal with it anymore. And my agent said, Look, it's really, it's it's a really great script and well read. It may not be for you, but you it's not a waste of time. Yeah. You'll enjoy it. I went, okay, great, fine. I sit down, put my feet up on the desk, and go, ch. And I am not eight pages in before I am like, oh my God, oh my God, this is so good. And so I finished the script and immediately reached out to my agent and and said, I really want this job. I went from not wanting to read the script to really wanting this job, and now I have to go sell myself, you know, and sell my vision for the movie.

SPEAKER_03 29:09

Well, you sold it, like I got the gigs. Yeah, I well, and that's the thing about life. You never know, like I've gone into a writing appointment with an artist that I thought I wasn't that into, and then they start doing it's like I didn't even know you had that side to you. You know what I mean? They start maybe playing guitar and I've only seen them play piano, and there's just a whole other part to them. But I love the music in that movie. Like, I loved watching how they did the songs and stuff in Mary Poppins. Yeah. Like that part to me was so fascinating because those songs are so iconic.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Yeah, the Sherman brothers were brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

And I loved it. You were like, I don't even really like Mary Poppins. Like, well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

I mean, I I I mean, I don't hate it or anything, but it's not a movie that I would watch all the time or anything like that.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

Yeah, but you loved it pretty quick.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

But I was gonna say is here's the story of that movie goes back to Australia, kind of like, you know, P. L. Travers is from Australia, who then became a fancy London woman and forgot that she was from Australia, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

And that's what the movie's about. It's like digging up that father-daughter relationship, you know, which is like that was one of the things that I was drawn to in that. I go, this is a father-daughter story. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

You're so good with the relationship stuff. You know what I mean? Like, and that's I guess what all stories are. They're I mean, that's a giant chunk of what they are, the relationships between people.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah. But it started off with there was a biography that'd been written about Peel Travers, and in Australia, they were trying to make a movie about Peel Travers who was from Australia, and there's there's even the town, one of the towns she lived in. There's a statue, a Mary Poppin' statue there, and stuff like that. So anyway, I've been to Australia where she lived in one town and then went to the other place where her mother tried to drown herself. And I mean, I've been to all the places where these actually happened.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

But what happened is they had a there's a producer in Australia who got a really fine writer to adapt this book, and it was more of a cradle-to-grave P. L. Travers biography, right? And which is a fascinating lady, and the stuff that happens after Mary Poppins is just wild and crazy and with her own son, and there's tons of stuff. Anyway, they never could get any traction with it. So this producer reached out to Allison Owen in the UK, in London, and said, since she was Australian and British, we were wondering if the BBC might want to get involved in this. We're trying to get this movie made, funded. And so Allison read the script and was kind of, oh gosh, it's a cradle to grave biography about somebody that, yes, she's famous for Mary Poppins, but no one knows. Peale Travers.

SPEAKER_03 31:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

You know, her name's not named. You go, what? You know, it's not Jimi Hendrix or something like that, you know. Um, so it's a hard sell. And there was a young writer who's an actress named Kelly Marcel, who had been writing and had just sold something, and Allison knew her and gave her the script and said, Would you read this? And she goes, Yeah. And she read it, and she and Allison came to the same conclusion separately, which is the part I'm most interested in is the two weeks she spent in Los Angeles.

SPEAKER_03 32:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

With Walt Disney. Yeah. Two creative forces of nature. That's what I love. With the Sherman brothers in there between them, you know, doing this.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

And I love, I love stories like that where you got that friction, you know, like what is gonna happen here.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Yeah.

How Saving Mr. Banks Finally Happened

SPEAKER_00 32:31

And so they agreed, they agreed, it's funny because they agreed, well, let's let's do that. And and the producer in Australia, Ian, he he was like, Okay, that's that's great. We're just trying to get you know, get the movie made. And so when they started writing, Allison got a cease and desist letter from Walt Disney Company. Oh my gosh, saying we understand that you're you know doing uh making uh writing a script called Mr. Banks. I wanted to let you know that Mr. Banks, we own that because we did Mary Poppins, and so stop it. And they and they said, Well, we're never going to be able to get the rights to songs or Disneyland or anything. That said, this is the best version of that script. So let's do it for us. Yeah. And Kelly wrote it. She goes, This is never going to happen. And then somebody, somebody uh at Disney read it because it made it to the blacklist or something. Yeah. And people went, this script's really great. What's the blacklist? It is it, you know, I don't know what it is now. It seems like it's it's morphed into kind of with the internet and everything else and competitions and things like that. But it started off, and this is probably incorrect, but I'll say it anyway, started off with assistants around town who come across and read scripts all the time, and they were looking at the ones that don't get made. And a small group of them said, What's the best script you've read that's never gotten that hasn't gotten made? And so they would all collect these and make a list of here are the best scripts. You know, we had assistants from every agency, and other people talk about these scripts, they go, My favorite script of the year was this.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

Oh, that's so good.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

And so it got passed out and distilled down, and then and then it probably got corrupted in some ways. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

People slipping theirs on there.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

Well, it's just one of those things where all of a sudden, when when the corporate culture grabs onto it, it's quits being genuine in some way. Yeah. It's like, am I supposed to like this? And now they they're looking at it, so I'm gonna say this one because it's really popular script. So I'm gonna, you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

I mean, I'm That's across the board.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

That's probably not probably not a fair assessment. I'm sure that there's a value to it. But in at that point, it did have value because it made all of a sudden you'd have people at studios read it, read it, and said, it, you know, the script's really good. We should I'm not saying we do it because we promised, you know, we will never make a movie about Walt Disney. You know? So that's we're not doing a Walt Disney movie ever. And um, and then lo and behold, you know, people kept reading it. And then finally Bob Iger, you know, read it. And Sean Bailey had said, I hate to tell you this, but it's really good. And he goes, Sean, are you saying we should make it? And he said, Look, it's not a movie about Walt Disney.

SPEAKER_03 35:11

Yeah. Yeah, it's B.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

It's two weeks in the life of Walt Disney. So it's not about, oh, we're getting into all these other things. It's that. If we were ever going to do one, this would be the one. And Iger went, if you want to do it, let's do it. So boom, you know.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

And nobody ever thought it would happen. Like it just, yeah, I love, I love stories like that. Like that just made me think about there's that famous quote when Decca Records rejected the Beatles, like guitar music's on the way out. That made me think of that. I've I've got a question too about how much of the time like do actors try to change dialogue?

SPEAKER_00 35:49

It depends. I mean, usually what happens is you're not you're not you're not really auditioning actors for the major roles. You're thinking about it and going, you know, I think I would really love to have Denzel if he would do this. And then you get him attached. And then once you're in there, then you go through and read scenes. And a lot of times, I would say three-fourths of the word of the dialogue words. I mean, even though I think that I write good dialogue, um, sometimes they don't come out of the actor's mouths right.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Yeah, yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

And so you go, I w and the intention behind this is I want it to be first real.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

And second, I'd love it to be well written and everything, but let let's work on it together.

SPEAKER_03 36:32

I love that. Yeah, because like sometimes you can try to get somebody to say something, but it ain't how they would say it. And it's like I've always wondered about that with the dialogue, because sometimes you'll see somebody like Quentin Tarantino and he don't want anybody saying and if or but different than it's like on the thing. Yeah. But I was thinking like, I can't imagine directing, like, that's probably I d I don't even understand how you hold that much on your plate because you're respon you're kind of the one responsible for everything. Everything.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:04

I mean, like, so that's Well, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

It's kind of it's like you're responsible for all of this, and yet, you know, every other second you're having to focus in and listen to the intonation of a word and or something that happens in someone's eye. And so it goes from big to small to big to small a hundred thousand times a day.

SPEAKER_03 37:24

How much time do you spend editing with like at the editing table when you're doing a movie?

SPEAKER_00 37:29

Well, I mean, you I mean, it's all dictated by money. So it's not as though you can go, I'm gonna edit until I'm finished. You have 10 weeks before you can turn into director's cut, that's your cut of the movie.

SPEAKER_03 37:39

So does that get changed a lot? Like the director's cut, or does it pretty much the one?

SPEAKER_00 37:45

Well, I mean, there's there's something that used to be called, I guess it still is, is final cut. Like a director can have a final cut.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

Oh, like I I have the last say.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Well, yeah, it's like contractually, I have final cut. I mean, Paul Thomas Anderson or something. I'm you're sure it's like, yes, I have final cut, I'm guessing. Um I've never been in a situation where anybody has tried to take the movie away from me and do it their way. Yeah. I mean, like, they wouldn't really hire you if they were gonna Well, that you what you want, you're in a bad relationship from the start if you're in business with the kind of people who don't value you.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Yeah, and who you can't be honest with. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

And that's not to say they might not have really good ideas that you listen to and you go, Yeah, let me try that.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

Yeah, usually like that's one thing we talk about. Like, if if we're writing with somebody, even if they're a newer songwriter, like sometimes they might point something out. They don't know how to fix it, but they're pointing out something that is actually wrong. You know what I mean? Like, I've I've seen that a lot. And I you can learn from anybody, you know. That's the thing. Like, I feel like I learn every time I sit down to write, like with somebody, I learn something. You know, I've let's see, I've got so many questions I want to try to get. What do

Dialogue, Ego, And Actor Collaboration

SPEAKER_03 39:00

you do? Like, okay, so how like when you start a movie, do you have the finished, like what you see this movie being in your head, like in the beginning? And does it constantly evolve or or what if it's going off the rails from where you thought you were going?

SPEAKER_00 39:17

Well, you make as a director, you you're I would I'm I'm not exaggerating when I say, you know, you're making 750 decisions a day.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Yeah. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

And and the thing is, and so you have to really have what the movie's about in your gut.

SPEAKER_03 39:34

So you can step on the city.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Because you're gonna make you're gonna make wrong decisions. Everybody, I mean you can't be perfect. Nobody's perfect.

SPEAKER_02 39:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

The thing is, but if you have it, I think, in your gut emotionally, then none of them will be fatal. Any of the mistakes you made will be little mistakes here or there or whatever. Um but none of them will be fatal. If you know what this is really about, deep down in your dark soul, yeah, then that's going to reside.

SPEAKER_03 40:00

Do you sit and talk to the actors and get on the same page with them?

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Like every actor's different.

SPEAKER_03 40:06

When you're making a movie like your lead guy, do y'all need to get on the same page about like the motivations and all that stuff?

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Depends on the actor. And it might be the same with you with musicians, you know. It's like, how much does this person want to know to bring out to for them to do their very best work? Yeah. Sometimes it might it might be don't tell them the intentionality of the song and everything else. It's like just do that thing, that thing, just do that. Yeah. Just do that. And the thing is, for the most part, actors do like to talk about the story and all those things. Sometimes they're less in inclined to do that.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

And the backstory too.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll let them ask me questions and I'll talk about what it means to me. Sometimes I'll keep secrets and not in a mean way. I mean, I have secrets that I go, what this is about to me.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

That if I shared with you, it wouldn't be the same for you. Yeah. So it might screw you up.

SPEAKER_03 41:02

Yeah, I get that. That's one thing Dennis always says about he tells Chris like loves this because he's always telling me that Dennis says every actor has a secret. And it's like, I don't know what exactly he means. Like, I don't really, I don't know. I've never taken that apart. Like, I don't know what he's talking about exactly. Like, somebody was asking me to be in this movie, like this Heartland thing. I think it's a movie. It might be, I think it's a movie. It's got Jessica Chastain. I think it's a movie. But I don't know if they were just wanting somebody with southern accents. Like I do love a movie when it has a real southern accent. You're talking about the Texas thing and read this and tell us what you think. Like no, no place gets as messed up as like the South, like Alabama, Georgia, those places. Like it's always bless your heart and Georgia. Not real at all. Yeah. I've never said bless your heart, and I've never heard any of my friends say that.

SPEAKER_00 42:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:02

You know, but like shit, I just went all around that. I don't even know where I was headed.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

But at that point, I mean, Sandy Bullock, you know, went to East Carolina, has some Southern relative. She has German and Southern. Yes. But she had uh and so she has a good, really good ear for accents and stuff. And also she had kind of grown up around it. So it kind of started coming back to her. And but more importantly, because she has a good ear, she got Leanne Tuey to say every single line in the script and record it.

SPEAKER_02 42:38

Oh, that's so smart.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

So that she could just hear it and hear it and hear it. And then she sent me, then she sent me, we were in prep, she said, okay, don't freak out, but here's some lines of dialogue that I'm gonna say. I'm not acting them, I'm just saying them in Leanne's voice, you know. And I went, it's really spot on. And I, and but then I thought, is but is it too much for an audience? It's really spot on. It is exactly Leanne. Yeah. I mean, and we went into Leanne's closet and our costume, Daniel Landier costume, went in and like looked through every bit of jewelry, all the clothes, everything. And and at one point, Leanne, who, you know, is busy, busy, busy, she goes, Y'all got way too much time on your hands. She goes, just stay out of my life, okay? I'll let you know, but you guys are bugging me.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

I thought when when you're telling me this stuff with Sandra, I was thinking she's southern, so she's not southern.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

Well, she is. I mean, she would she grew up there, but she also, I think her maybe her dad or my mom's in.

SPEAKER_03 43:38

But she doesn't talk like that in real life, like she does that movie. No. Yeah, I mean, because it's so convincing, it's so good. Like, that's how you know, with Holly Hunter. Um, like, I heard some stuff. Well, she narrated this book, but I heard that like um Coal Miner's daughter with Cece Spacich, that she couldn't even be around. Loretta Lynn after she did that movie because she would go back into character because it sounds like she studied her life.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

Well, and she's from a tiny East Texas town called Quitman, Texas. And in East Texas is the South. I mean, Texas is the beginning of the West, but East Texas is Arkansas and Louisiana, you know.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

That's where Chris has family from East Texas. And it's like a whole different thing.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

That's a whole different thing. But I was

Accents, Line Readings, And Musical Speech

SPEAKER_00 44:25

going to tell you the one thing it's funny you talk about dialogue and sometimes and in the one, you know, you have these hard and fast rules. Never give an actor a line reading. You know, there's that, which is like, don't come in and say, say it like this, because it'll mess with their heads and they'll they're trying to mimic and they're not acting then and all that. That's like a What is a line reading? Well, it's like Telling them how to say it. Yeah. It's like if the line is, um, I can't guess, what do you want for dinner? And if that's the line, I can't guess, what do you want for dinner? And they say it and it's not quite right, you've got to find as a director a a way to to have them say it differently. And and then you have to go, you know, be you what what if you're what if you're 20% pissed off at them because they're the woman make up their mind? And then they'll take that and turn it into something. And then if that doesn't work, it's like, okay, what if you're 50% pissed off at him?

SPEAKER_04 45:20

Oh, what?

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Now and now now you're really pissed off. And then you go, okay, now I've taken now you're not pissed at them at all. And they and they've gone through the takes and it just the residual effect ends up being, oh, that's good. Okay, that works. Oh, but Billy Bob on the other Billy Bob, you know, he would say, John Lee, listen, man. He goes, I I got a everything's musical in my brain. Like dialogue is musical and I memorize musically kind of stuff. He said, So I love line readings. He goes, I just want to hear the music in your head so that then I can take it and I can go, I can work with that.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

Oh, I love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

So he's the only actor I've ever worked who wanted line readings. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:58

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Because for me, like we've been watching that landman and his timing on lines, like his just natural timing.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Boy, a role, if a role was ever written for someone, I mean, it's I mean, um not the character, but yeah, but man, the way he just goes sloughs through life and everything he's the way he does all that, it's so it's BBT.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

I love like he was I was watching something with him the other day, and he was talking about that when he made Sling Blade, that he had some people he knew in Sling Blade. One of the guys worked at the store, and he was saying he thought a lot of times that like just your normal people, if they're a character, then they can they can act and they'll be great if like, but it's gotta be done right. Like, but he was saying Well, yes and no.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

It depends. Some people are just such characters that they'll they'll just like they don't even know the cameras rolling. Yeah, they're just doing their thing and they're perfect. Then other times somebody who's a character and you go, Oh, I love this person, and they get there and they go, and they're daring the headlights, and they go, and all of a sudden their accent changes and everything, and they go, Well, I'm trying to be professional. And you go, No, I just was looking for you.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

I'm not I can I've seen stuff like this happen where like you get on camera and somebody just starts acting crazy, you know, and you don't know what to do. Yeah like he was saying that with this guy that worked at a store, I guess it was somebody from his hometown, that he um that the guy he told him, no, we're just run, like just go through it. We're not recording. And he got the perfect take. He knew like not to put pressure on him, like to just, he just told him they were rehearsing and that guy got it one take. And I love like a movie that has real southern accents like Sling Blade does. Those that little boy, you know, I like the way you talk. That little and then the little boys in Talladigga Nights. Those I'm from Gidston, Alabama, which is right by Talladigga. We call it Talladigga. Yeah. And so, like when I heard those kids, they just sound just like my little cousins growing up.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

And let's be honest, it's a funny accent. Oh, it's so great accent. You know, it's fun, they're funnier because it's a comedy. The movies are comedy. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:22

I mean, you just southern people in general, like the you you can walk in any little gas station in Alabama and you're gonna you could be entertained for a long time. Oh, yeah. Because the people, the people there, they're just characters. They are. They're just characters. Like they're their own little world, you know, and a lot of them have never left that area. Yeah. Like, um, you know, you're the only director I know. That's what I was thinking a second ago. Because I know so many I know a lot of writers and actors, but I don't know another director. I think it's the most acclaimed thing to be in the movie business. Like, that's what people kind of just act crazy around directors, I think.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Yeah, I mean, it's it's it wasn't until I directed that I fully when I was writing and having movie movies made, I knew how important the writing was. If it's not on the pages, not on the stage, and et cetera, et cetera. But you know, a director is the tone police. They're the ones that protect the emotionality of it. Yeah. And so they're more responsible for the end result of the movie than anyone else.

SPEAKER_03 49:32

You get blamed and the credit.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

Yeah. Yeah. You some, you know, yeah. Sometimes sometimes you get the credit, you know. Sometimes it, you know, somebody else gets the credit and the movie's great and whatever, but that's all it's all good. You know, it's I my preference is not, I mean, I think people have an idea about what directors are What makes a great director?

SPEAKER_03 49:53

Like what, in your opinion, makes a great director?

SPEAKER_00 49:56

I I I mean, there are some directors that are acclaimed and that people love who constantly project themselves into the movies they're making. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whether it's with the lenses they choose or whatever, it's just the screen is screaming at me. Look at me! I'm the director, I'm over here.

SPEAKER_04 50:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Isn't this directed? He directed the hell out of that, you know? Yeah. As opposed to something that's more naturalism where you're not even thinking about the collection of thoughts and how they're edited. You're just moved. And that's what I think a great director is.

SPEAKER_02 50:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:32

Who is a couple that you make James Brooks? Is that his name that did terms of endearment? Yeah. That's who came to my head when you're telling about just watching the story and not being in it like the thing.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

Melodrama gets a bad rap, um, because it's so hard to do in a way that works. It's not sappy.

SPEAKER_03 50:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

And James Brooks had a a run of movies there where and Cameron Crowe as well.

SPEAKER_03 50:57

Yeah, we finished.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

You know, there's he's they still he's still, you know, working and and and doing things and writing books and stuff. But he um but they both had this ability to kind of take something that has a little bit of melodrama, especially Brooks, I think that you would go in other hands, this would be Yeah, it would be fine, but it wouldn't be affecting.

SPEAKER_03 51:22

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

He he certainly has a gift, you know. And Cameron Crowe as well.

SPEAKER_03 51:29

Cameron, I love Cameron Crow. Like he, I was just in my head thinking, I bet you Cameron Crow really liked John Hughes. Like I could see that being a big influence on him. Yeah. And like those movies, he just owned the 80s with those movies. We were watching some of vacation today. Like, I mean, that movie never gets old. Do you think it's harder to do a comedy or a drama?

SPEAKER_00 51:55

I've never done a comedy. That should be your next I think there's humor in some of the stuff that I that I do. Yeah they're funny in a realistic way.

SPEAKER_03 52:06

Oh yeah, they're definitely funny. A bunch of them.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

I'm never looking for like the outdoor laugh. I'm looking for smiles more than, you know, guffas. But it's just in it as long as it's realistic and natural and something that's funny because people's fun people are funny and life is funny, you know.

SPEAKER_04 52:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

But I I so I'm guessing that comedies are people always say comedy's hard.

SPEAKER_03 52:27

And it seems like comedy, like a lot of it is just getting funny people and putting them in there and letting them do a lot of improv sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Yeah. Well, I think that's part of that's true, you know, especially with the digital, the digital world where you can just roll forever. And, you know, there are some actors that have reputations for wanting to just go, just keep going, and I'll just keep going off and making stuff up and whatever. And depending on the movie, there may, there may be value in that that you can go, I'm gonna pull from this and ed this in. So I'm you know, I don't know what I'm talking about. I've never directed one of them.

SPEAKER_03 53:00

It just made me think about like the editor for Step Brothers was saying that it was an absolute nightmare trying to edit that movie because Will Farrell and John C. Riley. Oh, he's John C. Riley. Yeah. I love John C. Riley so much.

SPEAKER_04 53:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:20

I really love it. I feel like we're supposed to do something together. I don't know if it's music. I don't know. I love John C. Riley. I feel drawn to him. But like he said, the editor said it was a living nightmare because they they had so many great lines, you know what I mean? And they're just like you could watch those like outtakes forever on like YouTube.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Yeah, those two guys make each other laugh and want to make each other laugh. So they're one upping nonstop and they crack each other up. And so I can see that that would be difficult.

SPEAKER_03 53:51

I could never be on that set because I I would be like I don't know how everybody isn't losing their mind laughing. Like, um, let me see. So what do you think is your superpower as a director? Like, because to me, the director, like, there's probably a reason I've only met one and know one is because it's might be the hardest thing to do out of all this.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

I mean, I don't know if it's a superpower, but I think that one thing that I look, there are always more talented people. There are always people that are better than I am in certain aspects of directing. That's just what it is. I you know. But the one thing that I think that I think I feel more. I feel more, not than everybody I'm saying, but that's one of my strengths. I think is emotionally, I connect at a very kernel of truth level to scenes, and I'm good with understanding moments. Because to me, a story is just a collection of moments that you put on a string, not on like pearls or something, and then you you have something beautiful that is functioning as well. But it's like creating those little tiny moments within a scene. I I take a lot of pride in that and a lot of joy in that.

SPEAKER_03 55:02

So I think there was something you made me think about like it was something I heard you say about like when you were very first starting out this was a long time ago, but you're just talking about that you cared more than you know the people you were up against or something. Like I feel like caring is everything. Yeah. Like, but you you know, somebody's got to be like have their whole heart in something if they're gonna make it great. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 55:32

And also selfishly, it's like I I look at it and say, sometimes you don't know why you did a movie until after it's over, but there's always a reason you did it. And it has little to do with uh, oh, I wanted a job or I wanted to work with this person or you know, whatever it is. It usually is something that's kind of akin to therapy.

SPEAKER_02 55:53

Yeah. You know, it's something you needed.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Something you needed to evaluate and think about in a deep, long way. Yeah. And that, you know, and then yeah, and it couldn't be that for anybody. It might not be that for anybody else that sees the movie, but for you it represents something.

SPEAKER_03 56:10

Yeah. I totally get that.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

So because of that, when you're locked into that, you do you do care.

SPEAKER_03 56:16

That's the same way with a song. Like, it's like I'm trying to get this out. I need like this is something I'm trying to get, cause I write a lot of stuff about death because I think it matters. You know what I mean? Like there I lost my dad young, probably he was 49, like, and it was a shock. But I realized like trying to process that. There's so many people trying to process, you know, like losing somebody. And um I'll have that happen to me, or I'll be like really trying to work my way through something, and it'll come out in the songs.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

That's something I've haven't really delved into, like the the personal hurdles of death or overcoming death, or those kind of things. And so, you know, maybe there's some story out there that at some point I'll be brave enough to take on, but but I think that that's something that's an obstacle for me. I mean, you have loved ones that die, and you know, my father's dead, and fri I have lots of friends who have died. And there's a part of me that doesn't just I don't just go, well, that that's that and move on. You they hang with you, but I'm I don't address it.

SPEAKER_03 57:24

Yeah, I think that's pretty common.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:26

I think that's pretty common. Like um, there's that lady, Elizabeth Cooper Ross, that wrote all these the five stages of grief and all the death books. And somebody was saying that I was like the Elizabeth Cooper Ross of country music.

SPEAKER_04 57:39

I just did it.

SPEAKER_03 57:41

I've done so many songs. Like, I don't know why, but I just have done so many songs about that. And then I just had a song on Tim McGraw about losing your dog, and it's like we were playing a show, and this guy that knew the song, he would. I was like, Well, I'm trying to decide between this song and this song, and he's like, Don't do it. You want to really freak people out like a dog, something about a dog. There's a website called Does the Dog Die in it?

SPEAKER_00 58:10

About movies. Mark Johnson and I produced a little movie a long time ago called My Dog Skip. And I have a friend in Texas.

SPEAKER_01 58:18

I love it too.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

It's it's a little tiny movie that uh Diane Lane, Kevin Bacon, Frankie Muniz, Luke Wilson in, and nobody got paid anything. It was just a total labor of love that we shot in Mississippi. And it's and Jay Russell, you know, directed it, and uh Gil Gil Gilchrist wrote it. And it it's just it's this little tiny thing that doesn't have huge expectations, but it moves people. Yeah. It continues to be on TV during the holiday season and things like that. And anyway, so we made this little tiny movie for like four million dollars.

SPEAKER_03 58:52

And uh Was it about dogs, ladies and dogs? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

And so my friend in Texas said, I told him, he said, What do you got going on? I go, Well, this movie, you should go check it out. You know, it actually got a theatrical release. We didn't think it was gonna get a theatrical release, we thought it was going straight to video. It was a time when video was exploding. So he said, We're just trying to make the movie. But now it got a theatrical release, and it's gonna be in Austin. She should go see it if, you know, if you because he loves dogs. And he said, he goes, Does the he goes, he goes, Look, here's does the dog get killed? And with a straight face, I answered him. I said, No, Richard, the dog does not get killed. And he said, Okay, I'll go see it. And he called me after a movie, cursing me. And I said, I did not lie to you. The dog died. The dog did not get killed. Oh my God.

Directing Animals And Working With Kids

SPEAKER_03 59:38

What do you do when you're directing a movie with a dog? Did they just like, has that happened much? I was trying to think going through the movies.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

It's a pain in the ass working with animals because you have to train them specifically. And there's something about that is so not acting. It the scene becomes about getting the animal to hit their spot. And they're and they're brilliant trainers and stuff that you get, but you give them beforehand. You go, here's how this is going to map out. Um, you know, with the highwaymen. The pig's going to come out of the door and out here, and then the pig is going to run back in the door and push the screen door and nose the screen door open and go inside. And it's like, so we had to block the entire scene around the pig and cat and Costner and, you know, John Carroll Lynch and you guys, and you know, you could you guys are going to be doing this in the lawn, but we've got to keep this clear because we've got, you know, and in the middle of if you looked at the filming of it, there'd be somebody coming in with a treat and then racing out of frame and then start again, starting and stopping. And I'll be damned that pig didn't come out there and hit its mark and went right back in and stuck its nose, opened the screen door and went inside.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:44

So oh my gosh. That made me think Dennis is filming another one of those, I guess a dog's purpose. It's another one of like I guess it's in that line of movies. I don't know. I don't know if it's called that, but he was, I think he was upset because his dog couldn't be in it and this hound dog was in it, and he was like talking about how peaches could do these tricks better than this other dog. And I was laughing and I was thinking, I've always heard like doing mov- what about kids? What about direct and little kids?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

Well, that's a I mean, I'm casting it, of course. So I'm casting to kids that I can work with that I think bring what you what you need. The energy. But you also the energy, but also sometimes the ones that are the most camaradie who hit their marks and know their lines aren't as interesting to me as the ones who aren't hitting their marks.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:37

Like a real kid.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

A real kid. I mean, and I learned a lot from watching um On a Perfect World, watching both Clint directing it and Kevin acting uh with the young, the young man playing the boy that he was in the car with. And um, and seeing how they would just roll, roll, roll, keep rolling, as opposed to that's your take, say your line. Say your line, say your line. It was like just going, and then Kevin would just start over and do it a different way. And, you know, and then he would and then he would say, and then, you know, and Kevin in the car, because you know, you the director's somewhere else following along, but the car's up here or whatever. And Kevin, you know, would say, let's do it again, just keep going. He goes, do it again. He goes, I want you to, he goes, um, I want okay, I want you to take a bite of cookie, take a drink of soda, and then say the line while you're swallowing the soda, you know. Just and and a lot of times you'll just, when I'm working with a with a child actor, I'll just I'll get right by the camera and I'll say, say it again, say it like this. You know, or I'll go boop, and he'll give a little look. And, you know, and and then that'll end up being the real stuff that's in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

Is it fun?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

It's time consuming, but when you get something that's good, yeah, it makes it fun. And you wanna you want them to be kids, you don't want it to be a bad experience for them at all. You want them to have fun and you want it to be playful and and sometimes it is very serious and everything. But um yeah, uh, you know, so yes, every it's it's different every time. I remember on My Dog Skip, um, Frankie Muniz, who had who had not done very much at all, was you know, a long time before Malcolm in the Middle and things like and movies and things like that. He was just a boy. And uh he had a very he had lost Skip, his dog, and Luke Wilson, who played the kind of uh damaged vet that lived next door to him.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:29

Yeah, I love that character.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:30

And uh, you know, he was kind of, well, Luke doing that, well, I don't know, you know. And they had this scene together at on the on the porch, and and Frankie's sitting on the steps that go up to the house, and Luke comes and talks to him, and they're in the yard talking. And it's a very emotional scene with him talking, he's he's accepting blame for having run off Skip and you know, his best friend and all this stuff, and it's very emotional. And so Jay Russell, the fine director, said, okay, here's how I think I'd like to shoot it. Instead of starting out wide and then coming in, I would like to go ahead and go in for the close-up because we're gonna take a lot of work. We're gonna be with it a long time, and then we'll get and we'll find where we want to land emotionally, and then we can back out. And he said, Because of that, Luke, I'd like to shoot Frankie first. And Luke was like, man, this this is that is a tough scene. Absolutely. Let's, you know, shoot out Frankie first. I'll be here and then turn it around later. Okay, great. So everybody's going, This is gonna, this is gonna take a long time. It's very emotional. And we said, and action. You know, everybody's trying to be really quiet for the for little Frankie. And Frankie crushes it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:44

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:44

And Luke goes, that little sandbagger.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:50

Oh my gosh, that is awesome. That was one of your early things, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

Yeah. I mean, I had written a couple movies that had gotten made. I was writing other stuff, and Jay Russell came to me and he was friends with Willie Morris. And I had never met Willie at that time. And uh, but I was a fan of Willie, built Willie's books and stuff. And so he said, I've got I can get the rights to Willie's book, My Dog Skip, which is you know, a bestseller. It's out now. And it's it's sweet because Willie's wife had said, at this stage in your life, you should write about the people that meant the most to you. You know, and he said, Oh, that's a good idea, or maybe the one person. And he was thinking about different teachers and things like that and whatever. And after like a month, he said, It was Skip. It was my dog, was the most important creature I ever came. You know, apologies to you. Yeah. But Skip was the most important part of my life.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:48

I feel like a lot of people are like that. Like, there's a book I quit writing it twice, but it's called Soulmate Dog. And it's like, I'm gonna need that book to process when I do lose our dog girlfriend. She's like my heart. Like that dog, I'll never, they'll never be enough. We talked about cloning her. I mean, I just love this dog. But dogs, like, I've I've talked up some people because I was doing some interviews like about this, but I stopped doing it twice because girlfriend got cancer twice. And I felt like I'm bringing this into my world, like, you know, focusing on it so much. But girlfriend, like the thing with her, like your dog, I tell Chris all the time, the dogs are the only ones that are always nice to me in this house. You know, they're always waiting on you. They always just can't wait to see you. They dogs just love you so much. Like, and if you're sick, there's nothing better than just getting up in the bed with the dog watching TV. Yeah. Like, but people with their dogs, they're um, like when I was doing these interviews, like there were people that mourn their dogs more than they mourned family members. Oh, yeah. Like, and and I mean, like, men, like, like I heard some wives say they'd never seen their husband cry like that did he cried when he lost his dog. I think there'll always be dog movies. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:11

Like because Yeah, I mean, they're just there we have a we have a dog now and we've had lots of great dogs, but this particular dog we have now is just Ferdinand is the best. And and he's not just the best. I mean, he's like one of those like like your dog. It's like you look and you go, This dog knows. I know that dog. I think I know I know this dog, and there's something else going on here that our other dogs were great and loving and all that, but this dog is special.

Dogs, Grief, And The Stories We Need

SPEAKER_00 1:07:39

I'll tell you a story, and I don't know that anybody's uh probably even maybe I shouldn't tell it, I don't know. But uh Tony Scott, who was um a great director who died, you know, a while back. I was working on a movie with Tony and um who was a who was a good friend, and we were in London together and he was doing a movie uh I was doing rewrites on a movie and he was directing a movie called Spy Game with Brad Pitt and Robert Richard.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:06

Yeah, I know that movie.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:07

It was a good movie. And uh so we're over there and we're do I'm doing rewrites and we're having rehearsals with Redford and uh and Brad and et cetera, et cetera, there in in Soho in London. And um so at the end of one particular night, I can't remember if it was like a Friday, Friday, we had worked all day and whatever, and he said um, you know, I would just be going back to the hotel to work or whatever, but he said he would always get me to hang around and he would always open like an unbelievable bottle of wine. You know, that it was like you go, well, I'm staying now. Um and in in and just to hear about his life growing up and you know being Ridley's little brother and all that went along with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:50

I can't imagine those stories.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:51

Oh, great. I just love Tony so, so, so much. And Tony said that night, he said, I'm he goes, uh, can I tell you a secret? And then I said, sure. And he said, nobody knows this, but I'm heading from here to Heathrow. I've got to fly back to Los Angeles, and I'll be back, I'll be back Sunday night, and nobody will be the wiser. Because it was like some there was some kind of meeting that was kind of supposed to happen on Saturday, and he had kind of begged off and whatever. And he said, just do me a favor and don't tell anybody that I'm gone and we'll be back because everybody will freak out or whatever. And I said, Yeah, well, nobody asked me. It's fine, you know, it's great, whatever. And um, he said, I'm going to bury my dog.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:35

Oh God.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:36

I said, No bury, nobody buries my dog but me.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:38

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:39

Because that dog would wake up with him at 4 35 every morning and they would go on their rigorous hikes. And, you know, it was for Tony. He was like, Wives come and go, dogs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and and I and just made me love Tony all the more. And he went and got on a plane and went home and buried his dog and cried and came back.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:58

That's heartbreak. That's so sad. Like when he came back, like was he okay?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:03

Did he Yeah, I asked him if he was okay, and he goes, I'm glad I went.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:07

I can't even imagine, like, I would leave pretty much anywhere, you know. Like just they love us so much. Like, well, plus you can't take a dog over there, can you? Like, so that's gotta be rough. Like if you're doing a movie, like what's the longest you've been in another country or something?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:27

Uh the longest time I spent on a movie was probably the Alamo, but I was just in Austin. Yeah. You know, so it wasn't bad. But this uh this last one was probably the longest because most of my stuff's been shot in the United States and a couple of movies even done in Los Angeles, which is a rarity.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:42

Do you like it better? I would like to travel s a lot though.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:46

The thing is, is it I I think that it's there's something good about sleeping in your own bed and having this and knowing, you know, where you're doing and all that. But there's also I I do kind of like the the Spartan element of I'm going to do a job.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:02

And I'm I'm got a place to live, and this is where I'm living, this is where I'm working, this is what I'm doing. And it's kind of it has this kind of adventure element to it.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:11

Yeah. I get that. I love to travel. Is there an actor like who's your number one? If you could just manifest out there of who you want to work with? Like who's an actor that you just So many. If like if there was one person and they would sign on today, like that you'd love to work with.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:31

Well, my favorite actor of all time who's now past is Gene Hackman.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:35

Me too. That's my favorite actor.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:38

So I mean, I and I actually got to act with Gene Hackman in a Kieran Beer commercial a million years ago.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:46

Is it on YouTube?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:47

Uh probably somewhere. But yeah, I mean, I just yeah, that that's a whole nother story. But that was it was a it was a day I'll always remember for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:56

Oh, Gene, see, that's like when I was growing up watching movies with my dad, Gene Hackman and Bird Cage, like that care. He could do anything, like anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:05

He could take the worst line of dialogue and make it real.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:09

Coming out of his mouth, it sounds it just feels like it synapsed from his brain to his lips out into the air.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:14

And that's crazy. It's like how can somebody do that? Like, you know, that's one thing about like being a director and and working and like in every element, being a writer and producer, just doing the whole thing. You got this big toolbox, you know what I mean? You can come in, like if something ain't going right, you got all these tools to know what to do to fix it. Like sometimes. And that's what's so awesome because like I heard this songwriter Dean Dillon say, like, um, he was working with a younger artist and he was like, I know what's down that road around the corner, you know, and you do. You know when something just ain't gonna work. Like, and yeah, sometimes you gotta let people find that out.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:56

Especially the thing when you're blocking a scene sometimes, when you're blocking how this is gonna lay out and how we're going to shoot it. And you know, the clock is ticking every day, and time is money.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:07

Oh, that part's gotta be what's the pressure like?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:10

Well, it's you have to I mean, the sun comes up, the sun goes down, and you've got a certain number of hours to work every day. I mean, you're what is your what is your unit cost per day? I mean, sometimes it's like this day is costing us a quarter of a million dollars. Oh my gosh. Um those kind of things. And so every second is precious.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:29

Well, how do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:30

But the thing is, and so you have to deal with two things. One, the clock is ticking so loudly in your head that it is like Big Ben echoing in your head. But you can't share that. You can let everybody know that, you know, we've gotta we've gotta pick up the pacer a little bit and do that. You can't you can't go to the actress with that.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:53

Yeah. Because it'll make them anxious.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:55

You have to go from dealing with the line producer saying, if we don't get this in the next five minutes, we're going to have uh here's what's gonna happen because we're gonna have to push lunch and it's gonna cost us this many thousands of dollars, and so but and you have to just leave that and come to the actor and essentially go, we got all the time in the world.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:16

Oh, let's do this. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:18

Let's get it right.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:18

Yeah. See, to me, that's why directors are harder to come by, harder to find, because most people can't handle that kind of pressure. It seems like a lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:29

It is, but ultimately it's about ultimately it's about the thing that's gonna live forever. The other thing you talked about watching all movies. I mean, I had a thing that I told production designer Michael Kornbluth one time, I said, it's like every day I try to always rem I call it the motel rule. And it's like at some point, because we work in this business where we're always traveling and we're stuck in this place and this well, why in the hell? Yeah, I'm in Manchester, UK now. What you know, how did this happen?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:57

And invariably you're gonna be stuck in a hotel somewhere and you're gonna turn the TV on, and one of your movies is gonna pop up. And when you're lying there looking at it, the last thing you want is to go. I was a little lazy that day. I didn't I didn't get what I needed.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:17

So always keeping that in your head, it's like, you know, never, never coast.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:22

I love that. That's there is a similar thing with songs with that in the studio that I learned the hard way. Like it that the only similar thing to directing I could see would be in the studio because like so, especially as a songwriter, you get like um, you get three hours and you got like usually five musicians. So you have and you have five songs because if you don't demo five songs, it's gonna be way more money. You know what I mean? So you you're supposed to get five songs and you're trying like trying to balance all these people, and then one person keeps messing their part up, you know, and then somebody's playing like a banjo and it's like I hate the banjo. You know what? You're just trying to manage all those people. And that can be, that can is the only thing I can relate with that's similar, like because it just like uh where I was going with that is if I don't get it the way I want it and just put up with the anxiety, then I'm gonna hate it even more when I hear it. You know what I mean? Like if you don't get it, like while you're in there, even if you go over or whatever, like it's gonna be bad. You're gonna beat yourself up more that you didn't just you know, deal with it and make and get it.

Time Pressure And The Motel Rule

SPEAKER_00 1:16:44

And a lot of times though, the you what you have to do as a director is you have to you've ha you edit it in your head beforehand. I mean, while you're seeing this, you've already selected how you're shooting it, the lenses you're using and things like that. So you have a rough of it edited in your head, and so you know what you need to get. Yeah. What's important and what's less important. Yeah. And so sometimes you'll go, you'll be catching, you know, one person in a scene or something, and you'll know the important two lines, and you'll know that these other three aren't as important. Yeah. And sometimes you have to move on. You go, I've got what I need.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:20

And and truly, I've heard that like in movies I've watched for the director, I've got what I need. Like I can work with this.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:27

Yes, it's cut, it's cut in my head, and I'm gonna be on this shot anyway.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:31

Yeah, yeah. Well, so like how many times are you surprised, like when you when you sign on with a movie, say you adapt. That that'd be better even probably no, wait. No, say you wrote it original. Like, are you surprised when at the end of the movie what it is, or is it like you imagined?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:51

I think I mean the best the best scenario is that it's better than you imagined. Yeah, that's the best. That would you go with this all came about, and you know, and plus you've got real life people saying the words as opposed to just reading them on a page. So yeah. It's it's pretty great when moments work.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:09

That's amazing. Like when the stars align and you're like, oh, that's gotta be the best. Like the do you some like how much do you have to do with casting? Do you like are you in the middle of that? Do you have to say yes?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:20

You yeah, you cast. So you cast everyone. Well, that said, you've got people that give you money, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:26

Whether it's a studio or whatever. And I, you know, I I can't say my brother's gonna play this role. Yeah. And they're gonna and they go, Well, you're not getting the money then. So, you know, they're Oh, they got their two cents. They get the yes, absolutely. But it's like I'm I'm casting it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:42

Do you want do you get an argument like say you want one actor and the studio wants somebody different?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:48

Yeah, you I mean, I wouldn't say arguments, but you just you just say, let me help you to understand why the person you're presenting is 25 years too young for this role. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:01

And here's why. Yeah. And so then helping them come to say, I'm not saying that the person that I would love to play this is the only person who can play this, but I'm saying that person that you want, regardless of his or her interest, is wrong for it.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:16

And you're we're all gonna regret it. Not because they're not a great actor, they're a great actor. They're just not right for this.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:23

That's how it is kind of in life. If you can sit down with somebody and communicate, you know what I mean? Like you're not saying this person's better. You're telling them why. Yeah you know, why you don't think this this'll work. Like the thing with like actors, the time I got it the most like wrong, well, he won an Oscar. So it like that wrong, do you say his name Romy Malik? Is that it? I was so surprised when they cast him for Freddie Mercury. Because Freddie Mercury's my favorite singer, and I had seen like where Sasha Baron Cohen was gonna make that movie, and um then then that went away. I don't know what happened with that, but then then when I saw he was playing him, I was thinking, I just could not see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:06

See it.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:07

And then when he did it, he wins the Oscar. It was like so different. Do you have that happen? Like where or do you have the decision first so it doesn't?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:16

Well, you're Rami, that was something that Rami is a very talented and dedicated actor. He threw himself into that. This was not like, oh, I'm doing a movie and we start in a month and I'm gonna play Freddie Mercury. This was more than a year of him desperately wanting to play that role and working to play that role and mimicking everything and learning, learning, learning. So he was well prepared for it. I would say the relationship with actors is really, really fun because there's first you're writing it, or you know, sometimes you didn't write it, Kelly Morris. I wrote it, and I'm doing it, but I'm I'm I'm saying I know this character, and I want to cast this person, and you cast somebody. And the casting stage, when somebody comes in and reads, or someone starts to act it on the stage, they you're learning just even just saying, yes, you're the one who's gonna do it, it already informs the character in a way that now you know more about the character than you did before because you can attach a face to it and emotion to it and behavior to it. And so you've known more about the character now. So you're going to direct the movie, knowing more about the character than you did before you cast it. And then you're helping the actor, you're melding with the actor to say bringing this person to life. And it can take a little while. And you, you know, you have rehearsals and things like that. And sometimes it's the rehearsals are all you need, and you jump right in, and this person is going, going, going. Other times, you know, you your first week can be almost, you know, it's good, but not as good as it could be, you know, that kind of and because the actor is still trying to find a difficult character. But um, but there then there's that day that happens when an actor knows more about the character than you do. And on the one hand, you there's a part of you that's like offended because you go, I made this person up. This person didn't exist before I created them. And then you go, but yeah, you're right, you know more about this character than I do now.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:09

And that's what you want in the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:11

You want it. Yeah. It's like your your kid growing up and you know, and and leaving the home. You go, you know what? Yeah, it's your life.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:19

Oh, yeah, that's a good way to look at it. I like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:23

Like, do you ever cast somebody and then be like, oh shit, this was a mistake. This is never gonna have that happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:30

I would say Or had to switch them. No, I've never, I've never, never had to do that. Uh I there's a couple of times, you know, but you know, with certain roles or whatever, you go, I probably should have gone this way more than that. But um but no, no bad experience.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:47

Well, what if the actors themselves clash? Like say there's a couple and they're supposed to be in love, but they don't like each other.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:55

As much as I can try to I want everybody to get along. I like a really happy, hardworking set um where people are kind to one another. So part of that would be part of my job would be if something's going on like that, which I've never had.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:10

You've never had you've never had that, really. No.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:13

Not really. No.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:15

People some of these people like the the singers can really be but they're not working on it together. They're their own individual things. So it's a different thing, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:27

I've never had actors that I mean, I've probably had actors that I didn't know about who didn't get along all that well or whatever. And it still works out. Yeah you know, it's like they're professionals and you come in and that kind of thing. But yeah, you have other sometimes you have crew members who don't get along.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:41

You know?

SPEAKER_04 1:23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:42

And then you then you have to step in and, you know, and kind of okay, guys, go to your corners. We're all in this together. You know. If you got any problem with him, bring it to me. Let me deal with it. You know.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:55

What do you think you're gonna do next? Do you know yet?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:58

Well, um, right now we're in the writer's room for season two of Talamasca's. Oh, good.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:03

I was gonna ask you, was there gonna be another one? Well, we're waiting to get the official green light, but we're hoping you enjoyed doing like a TV thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:10

I did. It happened at a time in my life where it was unexpected and something that I would have never thought about doing, like in Ann Rice world. And Mark Johnson, since Mark Johnson was the one who called me, then I entertained it.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:26

And so then I went, well, this is never gonna happen, but I'll think about it. I'll read the Talamasca stuff from the other books, and I thought this is kind of fun. And so I go, well, I've got a pitch. They're never gonna buy it. And so then I pitched to them, and Mark said, I really like it. And so we went to AMC and they said, I really like it. So they said, write a script. So I I wrote the first script, and I thought they're never gonna make this, but I'm having a lot of fun with it. I just kept going. I wrote a second script, and you know, and I kept writing because I loved it so much. I loved the characters in the world and you like living in that world. And and yeah, it was just something I hadn't done before, and so it was really fun. And yeah, and I was going through a whole bunch of personal stuff and whatever. And so, in some ways, this this spy/slash supernatural vampires and witches and demons thing that I never thought I would ever do kind of saved my life.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:15

Yeah. I mean it really. Yeah, life's weird like that, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:18

Yeah, and it was a great experience. It was a great experience.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:22

So you think they'll do it though? You think you'll be doing this second line?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:25

I have no idea. I mean, they're paying us to sit in a room and write and come up with the biggest thing. Yeah, you'll be doing it. Yeah. It's the I've never seen a tougher time in Hollywood than in my time here. Aaron Ross Powell,

AI, Algorithms, And The McDonalds Trap

SPEAKER_00 1:25:34

Jr.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:34

What's AI doing? I mean, like, what's it doing to the music thing? Like, you people can just put the they're writing song you can write a song in three minutes.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:45

I I I'm so over the AI music. Like, but I don't know what's worth it.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:49

Well, I mean, I uh is AI a big issue? Of course it is. Is it the issue right now that is, you know, on everybody's plate? No, it's just contraction. It's it's just there are fewer jobs. Yeah. You know, and yes, I guess AI might be taking some of them, but not yet. Yeah. It's just, you know, we I think between COVID and the uh and the two strikes, I I think that content creators, which is what they kind of like to be called now, you know, uh it's it's it's more corporate, it's lost its emotion behind it, and they've all condensed. And, you know, and now Netflix is gonna buy Warner Brothers, and so we have fewer and fewer and fewer people making. So what happens when what happens when all of a sudden there's one company that does all the TV shows and all the movies?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:35

Like Amazon does everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:40

Well, it would remind me kind of like with what if you were a filmmaker in Russia or something? You have one-stop shopping. Oh, okay. I mean, you have your idea and you go to the government and go, here's the idea I have for this movie, and I'm looking for funding.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:53

Yeah. Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:55

I mean, and so what happens when every restaurant is a McDonald's? Because everybody's idea is always, and people, you know, in studios and corporations and things like that, they they they have taste too. I mean, they have movies they like and whatever, and it's not that, but it's a business, and these are publicly traded corporations. And you go in and you pitch an idea for you're a chef, you know, and you're gonna have a restaurant and you want it to be a French bistro, and you're talking about how it's gonna be decorated and what's gonna be served, and they get so excited, you know, they go, This sounds fantastic. Yes, let's do that. Little by little, every day, it's gonna be trying to turn it into McDonald's. Yeah. And so you've got to push back, push back, and they go, yeah, 80 billion served. It's not a, you know, I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:43

Nothing yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:44

So it's the art and commerce that is from the start all the way to the end. And I'm not, and I'm not the person who's saying, screw the businessmen, screw the suits. Well, don't take their money then.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:54

Do it on your own.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:55

That's true. That's true. You know? It's it's everything has changed. So much, it seems like, about like the algorithms and all like I was hearing Alan Ball that did True Blood and American Beauty talk about he was talking about algorithms, like that's how they were judging what they were gonna, you know, make. He's like, it's gotta, he, it's gotta fit this algorithm. And it was like, that is so I mean, that's like a different world.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:23

Well, but the thing, the thing about AI and algorithms and things like that is that it does give you the ability to look back and go, I can give you in this genre, here are the movies that were the most successful. And I can also say what they had in common. And so let's draw from that pool to create another one that's just like that. And it and it works, but it it feels kind of like you've forgotten it by the time you you're in the parking lot. Yeah. Because you go, that was satisfactory.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:50

It was kind of what, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:52

That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:52

Yeah, I wanted a cheese, I wanted a cheeseburger and it was a perfectly fine cheeseburger, and it sated my hunger, hunger for a moment, and then whatever. But the thing is anything that is kind of really great, sometimes it's rewarded financially and sometimes it's not, usually has an artisan quality to it, which means that someone didn't look at the algorithm.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:17

They did something that no one had ever done before. That's and that everybody would say, that'll never work.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:23

And then it works.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:24

And then it'll become part of the algorithm for the next poor sucker that has to deal with it.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:29

I know. That's the thing. That's the whole thing with music too. It's like AI can only do what somebody's already done. So it can take these little things and put them in order. But our daughter was saying the other day, and it's so true, like you feel music. You don't really, it's not, you're just not just listening, you feel it. And movies are the same way. Like, and that I think everybody's favorite thing is surprises. Like if you're reading a script or something and it's like it just surprise that's the best part to me about creativity. You know, when you that's what creativity kind of is, you know, like just going somewhere that somebody didn't see something coming, you know, or a song that has an incredible bridge or something like that you just don't see coming.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:15

That I behavior and mistakes are the things I love most.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:20

Because we make mistakes in speaking all the time, and yet we want everything to be perfect. And I'll it'll it's the funniest thing in the world because I'll show a cut to a a studio or network or something like that. And they'll go, Well, you're gonna fix, she blubbed the line there. She slid it on her lips a little bit there. And I go, And I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:39

And I think And they went, they would all go, but it's a mistake. I and I remember Quade, I was the Quaid on the rookie would come over, you'd do takes this was back we're shooting film, and you would circle takes that you would have printed. So if you circled a take, that meant that you were going to print it so you could look at it to potentially use it in the editing room, right? Now, you that doesn't mean you can't go back and print other stuff that you passed by. That said, a circled take was one that was you know like that. Yeah. And so, you know, Dennis would we'd have a take, and Dennis would do something or whatever, and and he would come over and go, don't use that one. Don't use that one. And I go, no, no, no, no, no. And I turned turned to the script supervisor, Gina Grant, and we had a thing where I would just wink at her and go, like, don't circle it, because he'll come and look. Oh gosh, I didn't see him coming and flicking. But but make a little mark so that we're gonna circle it later.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:31

Did you write your first screenplay or adapt your first screenplay?

Rewrite Deadlines And Writing Credit Reality

SPEAKER_00 1:31:36

Wrote. I mean, I I didn't have an agent. I was just coming up with ideas, and a perfect world was three different ideas that melded together over the course of about two years.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:46

Is that was that your first big movie?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:48

That was the first movie that got made. Well, actually, that's not true. There was one called Viacondias that Chris wrote a song for.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:56

Oh yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:57

Yes. That was something that I wrote that was an original.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:00

How many screenplays have you written?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:02

Oh god, I don't know, a bunch.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:04

Like forty or more?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:07

More.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:07

Like a hundred?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:09

Oh, I don't know. I mean, it's hard because sometimes you come in to rewrite on something and you've written another draft of it, so I don't know if that counts or not.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:17

But I mean How did that movie work The Huntsman?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:20

Snow White and the Huntsman. It it financially worked very, very well.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:24

Yeah, I love that. I really love that movie. But there's three writers on that movie. How did it was that a rewrite situation?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:31

Yes, that was one where I came in and wrote a lot. Yeah, they were about to start production. And Charlize, who I'd known, you know, not close friendly.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:42

The first movie Chris and I ever went to see, she was in that movie. Two Days in the Valley. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:47

Yeah. Well, just about the time Two Days in the Valley was about to come out, she came to visit a friend of hers in Savannah, Georgia when we were making Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil. And so I met Charlize before anybody knew who she was, and she was fun and great, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:02

It's so great when you know people a long time like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:04

And then we and again, we're not close friends or anything like that, but you know, every time I'd see her, I'd be very happy to see her. And she had um that was one where Universal called and they said, would you read a script for us? And is there any way you could read it today? Because we need help. We've got a we've we're starting filming in two weeks and we've got some problems with scenes and things that and Charleese needs some work done on her scenes and things like that. And I said, What is it? And they told me, I go, Oh, I don't do that. Get somebody else. Yeah, no, I'm you if your time's short, get somebody else. And they said, you know, and I so I they said, would you just read it? I go, look, I'm happy to read it for you guys, and I'll just tell you stuff that jumped out at me, and then you can take that and get somebody else to do it and Godspeed, you know. I'm no charge. And we're helping, it's a small town, we're helping each other out.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:52

So I read it and said, uh, you know, a couple of thoughts. And I said, Can you get on a plane tonight? And so I thought I was gonna go for three days and ended up staying six weeks. And this was one where I ended up, you know, doing lots of rewrites on it and stuff, and unexpected kind of that I got a credit. I did a lot of work. Yeah. But I think that Evan, the the first writer, certainly deserved first position and he created that.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:17

I think it's so great that if something isn't working right or a little bit screwed up, you can get somebody to come help you. That would be great with songs. You know what I mean? If we had a song that what might but it doesn't seem to work as as easy that way. No, like I've taken titles to the wrong people, you know what I mean? And then just wished I could go back.

How He Says Action And Cut

SPEAKER_04 1:34:38

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:38

So, like when you're doing a movie, do you how do you say it like action? Is that what you say?

SPEAKER_00 1:34:45

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:46

Maybe I want to get you to say that for that to be in a minute the last, like how you would do it if we were on a movie and you were telling me to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:54

Well, I d the thing is that I I came up in, I mean, kind of my direct I didn't go to film school. So Clint Eastwood was kind of my mentor as a director. And so doing having two movies that he did that I'd written and being on the set for those, I just learned a whole lot. And Clint um he didn't say action or cut. He didn't. No. He said when I was on Rawhide, he goes, somebody yelled action, even the horses got nervous. So Clint would kind of do one of these um, everybody's set and go, and he goes, Okay, whenever you're ready, you know, kind of thing. And people would act and whatever, and then he would just let it go on after the scene was over. And sometimes actors would kind of improv or do things and and he'd say, Okay, let's not make a meal of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:39

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:40

You know, and then we'd move on. Um but for me, I mean, but everybody's hanging on every word Clint says, and that's not the case with me, unfortunately. So um but yeah, I d I don't I don't yell. I mean, unless, yeah, sometimes you you know you got a thousand extras and this and that, and so you're going, and action, you know, over the And action. Do you do an and first? I do an and just so they can know. So it's not like I don't it's like what? There's and action.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:05

And I you tend to go trying to figure out is it ready, set action, or is it just and act that makes better sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:12

I just like it to kind of smooth out so this is like it's start whenever you want. Okay, guys, whenever. You know, what I mean, I change it up, and sometimes sometimes I'll say cut, and sometimes I'll just go, okay, we got that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:27

Okay, so I'm gonna do the end of this would be like if everybody watching was in a movie and you were telling them it's time to cut.

unknown 1:36:35

Cut.

Final Thoughts And Sign Off

SPEAKER_03 1:36:36

Oh, that cuts better than action. Yeah. That how would you end this?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:41

I would probably uh let's see, I'd watch carefully, and when I think that it's over, I'd go and cut. That was great.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:50

That was great. You guys rock. Thank you for watching.