Murder Trials, Dirty Cops & Jury Secrets | Criminal Defense Lawyer Marian Fordyce

Murder trial. Dirty cops. Jury secrets. Police interrogation tactics. Reasonable doubt explained. What really happens inside a murder trial? Can police legally lie during an interrogation? And why do criminal defense lawyers tell people to stop talking?

In this episode of Earth to Aimee, Aimee Mayo sits down with veteran criminal defense attorney Marian Fordyce for a fascinating conversation about murder trials, jury psychology, police interrogations, reasonable doubt, wrongful accusations, courtroom secrets, addiction, corruption, and the biggest mistakes people make when dealing with law enforcement.

From shocking courtroom stories to practical advice that could save you from self-snitching, this episode pulls back the curtain on the criminal justice system like you've never seen before.

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Transcript

Cold Open On Fear And Danger

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So you've done murder trials? Yes. Are you ever scared of people? I've quit practicing law five times. Oh gosh. One of them shut up at my child school. And that's when I quit practicing law one of the time. Has there been people you just said no, I ain't doing it? Oh, absolutely. Like child predators. I let him know, like, who the witnesses were. And two of them disappeared. So you wouldn't have thought it looking at him? Uh-uh. I was like screaming at him to shut up. I couldn't even eat breakfast in the morning because I thought I'd throw up or something. Was he getting excited by telling you? He confessed to the cameras and then he wanted me to follow the motion saying it was a body double. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 0:43

One time this cop pulled me over and he was asking for my insurance card or whatever.

SPEAKER_05 0:48

And I gave him my blue cross blitz cute because I was so flipped out by him. So just don't say you've been drinking. No. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

I'm not gonna wear that, and I'm like, well then you're gonna be wearing arms. What do you wanna do? The reality is people with the most money and the best lawyer wins. Talk to an attorney for no self-snatching.

Meet A Criminal Defense Lawyer

SPEAKER_05 1:28

This is Amy Ma'am with Earth to Amy. That's the new name of this podcast, Earth to Amy. And my guest today is Miriam Fordyce.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

That is great.

SPEAKER_05 1:40

Okay. And she's a criminal defense lawyer. Anything I say wrong, just tell me it's wrong. Okay. Um, so what all does a criminal defense lawyer do?

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Well, it's funny because do you want to know why how I started? I want to know all of it, all of it, all of it. Well, my dad um one day came back and said, This was after I got my license in October, and my family used to have a building on 2nd Avenue, and we're all lawyers, all four children. I love it. That was my dad's dream. And so one day he came back there and he said, What are you doing? And I said, Well, I'm doing research and stuff for some other lawyers. And he said, Well, when are you gonna start practicing law? And because he was a litigator, and so he made me so mad because I was, quote, not doing anything and wasn't litigating. And I'd heard they gave away cases at the jail docket. So I went marching up Second Avenue, and then it occurred to me when I got to the top, I didn't even know where the jail was. So I had to

The First Jail Docket Case

SPEAKER_00 2:45

get directions. And then I marched in, and I didn't know you weren't supposed to just march into the judge's chambers, but uh it was Judge Mondelli, and I gave him my card, and I said, uh, this is who I am. I need a case today. And he gave me one. And uh they didn't speak very much English, they were Hispanic origin. And I didn't even know which side of the room to sit on. Oh wow. And this was your first time? First time ever. So they had broken into a tavern and while the alarm was going off, they were sitting outside drinking beer. Well, what I didn't know is a lot of them did that when it got really cold so that they could spend some time in jail. But here I am trying to figure it out and rigorously defend him. And he stands up in the middle and he goes, I did it, I did it all, and all by myself. Oh got up, got in his face, and was like, shut up and sit down. And uh it was so much fun. I had to keep going. And this was your very first time very first time doing criminal law.

SPEAKER_05 3:56

Oh my gosh, that yeah, I was wondering how you got into criminal law. There's so many different kinds of law. Like, so if you're a public defender, that means you're working for the state. Is that what that means? Correct.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

And you're you're like trying to prove the case. Um, okay, you've got two sides. One's um the district, well, this is local. Yeah, like here and um there's the district attorney, and that's who prosecutes the case. And then you've got the public defenders, and you've got they work for the city too, but they're state paid or whatever. And then you have private attorneys. And a lot of them start, I did, by getting court appointments because the public defender has a conflict. That means they've either represented somebody who's involved in the case or represent one of the co-defendants. And so you get appointed to all kinds of random cases.

SPEAKER_05 4:54

So I hear like that a public defender they get assigned to somebody if they can't afford a lawyer? Is that right? Is it the same way with a criminal defense lawyer?

SPEAKER_00 5:06

The ones that are appointed. Now later you get just retained cases where people pay you.

SPEAKER_05 5:12

Do the criminal defense lawyers make more money? Like if you see somebody like it seems like all of them are so slick. If they're like defending like with OJ or with these big high profile cases, like it seems like the criminal defense lawyers, like they get the big bucks.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Once you've earned, quote, earned your stripes and are really good. And then there's some really good ones in that stuff. Really good ones. And theirs make really good money.

SPEAKER_05 5:41

And it's worth the money too, like to be out, like, because I feel like so many people love, like, we got obsessed with the Karen Reed trial. I mean obsessed. And we got like way into that Murdoch trial that killed his wife and his kids. Yeah, and like the best thing I ever heard, because one thing that's super confusing, like it was always confusing to me, and I think it's confusing to most people, is reasonable doubt. Like just that saying alone. And the guy that represented like the public defender against Murdoch, he was talking about reasonable doubt. And it was the best like description I've ever heard of it. He's like, if you are in the house and you hear thunder and lightning, and then you go outside and

Public Defenders And Court Appointments

SPEAKER_05 6:30

everything's wet, and there's twigs, you know, down, you know, and you see in the like the sidewalks are wet and and like you can tell it's rained. That he was comparing that to reasonable doubt. Like you know this happened, but you didn't see it happen.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Is that right? Well, it depends from my standpoint, you know, it depends on the case. And so you want to kind of train them of what you think the flaws are gonna be to create that doubt.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Because like in Tennessee, just because you heard thunder and lightning and it's wet outside, it could have snowed and now gotten warm. Oh my gosh, that's true. You know, because it changes, yeah. So it's a matter of interpretation because it's the reasonable man standard. What a reasonable man would beyond a doubt, you know, have a reasonable doubt. So there's a lot of gray area in there. And I've I was a prosecutor too. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:32

I think the best criminal defense liars were a prosecutor.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Do you probably um I like defense work a lot better because you just really pay attention and try to screw it up? Yeah. And I'm good at that. I could screw up a one-car funeral.

SPEAKER_04 7:46

Me too, me too. Chris calls me like a confusion specialist. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Exactly, because you just pay attention, and I guess that's what's kind of sad. But a two is because when I got out of law school, you think you're gonna be like legal, legal, and save the world. Well, look around. That didn't work out. Yeah. But there's so much about it that's has nothing to do with the law. Like before I even tried one jury check case, I went and like stalked juries coming out. Yes. And I was like, what do y'all talk about back there? You know, because they're not allowed to talk about the case at all. They're not? No, not until the proof is all done.

SPEAKER_05 8:27

Oh my gosh, I did not know that. I think most people probably don't know that. Yeah, they're not supposed to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

But they take notes and stuff during it. Yes. So I went and talked to them all, and I was like, what do y'all talk about? And they were like, Well, we talk about the attorneys, how they dress, how they talk. And I was like, Wow, I mean, it had nothing to do with the law or anything.

SPEAKER_05 8:52

How much do you think the likability of the lawyer has to do with somebody winning a case?

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Oh, big time.

SPEAKER_05 8:59

Like how what percentage would you say?

SPEAKER_00 9:01

I'd say it's way up there. I I'd say it's more than 50%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:06

Do you think it's like 70%?

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Oh, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_05 9:09

Because if you don't like the lawyer and they're rubbing you the wrong way, you know what I mean? And like they're saying things that and they're reminding you of things you don't, you know, like the if you just don't like them.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Well, you know, what's funny about that is I'll actually use that against the state because they're like some prosecutors I know that like greatly annoy the the jury. Oh yeah. And so it's kind of fun to use that against them.

SPEAKER_05 9:37

And uh if you know they're gonna pull a trick, do you that's one thing I think so good. If you know what the other side's gonna say and they're like totally just bullshitting and you know what they're gonna try to pull. Sometimes I think it's good to say they're gonna come out and tell you this and this and this, but I'll tell you now why that ain't right. You know, like exactly. That's what I I love stuff like that. Do you watch the criminal cases?

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Like, oh, absolutely. It's fun on TV and stuff. Did you watch? I've seen a couple of mine sometimes. You have? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:13

Oh my gosh, we should put we should put them at the end so people could look. That's amazing to me. I think it's such a cool job. And I think like um, I've always had so many questions about it because I've never really talked to anybody doing, you know, what you're doing. Like, what if somebody's guilty and you know they're guilty and then you gotta go represent them.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Oh, that's much better. That's much better. It's because literally you're only looking at the law and you're only just trying to mess it up. So literally, um you're just paying attention to what's

Reasonable Doubt And Gray Areas

SPEAKER_00 10:50

going on and trying to mess it up and rephrase it. And I went years and years without ever losing a jury trial because it's the innocent ones. I hate, hate the innocent clients. Yeah. Those are gut wrenching and they're really scary.

SPEAKER_05 11:09

Wait, so have you had clients that were innocent that you know were innocent that that went to jail and stuff? No, thank goodness I've won those.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Oh, I couldn't imagine how.

SPEAKER_05 11:20

That would be the worst feeling. If they're innocent, why is it more difficult for you?

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Oh, because what if you do lose or something that you gave me? Guilty, I mean, no harm, no foul. Yeah, yeah, that's really good. Do you see a big difference in race? It depends on where you are. Like in Nashville, I did big time. And so I always kept um doing appointed work even when I was making a lot more money, um, just because I felt like black males didn't get a fair shake. I agree. And now I'm in Cheatham County now, so you know, we don't have as many.

SPEAKER_05 12:01

So yeah. That's how like um there's this documentary that I think everybody should watch it. Most people don't want to watch it because you can tell it's gonna be sad. But being from Alabama, like the race part, you know, like of of people getting arrested, like this this documentary called The Alabama Solution, um, it was heartbreaking. Like, I mean, people, it's like they just wanna keep people in jail. You know what I mean? Like, it's like they just want to keep them in jail so they can just make them do jobs and pay them nothing. And it it just that documentary is so good, but it really shows the racial difference, you know. Like, what about money? If somebody's got a lot of money, does that like what do you think? Is that like kind of like the opposite of the racial thing? They can get away with murder, basically.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Yeah, I've quit practicing law five times. Oh gosh, because it, you know, as I said, I had these noble ideas and yada yada. But the reality is he with the most money and the best lawyer wins in so many instances, and it's so frustrating.

SPEAKER_05 13:11

Yeah, that would be so hard. That would be so hard, like and knowing, you know, just knowing that's how it works. What do you think justice like? How would you define justice?

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Gosh, that's a good question. Because there's so many variables. What's weird too? Um, I went to Harpeth Hall. Uh well, we might not want to say the name, but I went to No, that's good. Everybody wants to go to Harpeth Hall. Which was an all-girls school. So I I and then my whole life was pretty sheltered, you know, and I didn't think so. I thought I was a woman of the world, and then I started doing criminal law. But there's so many more factors when you start going it from that viewpoint to uh defense work and start meeting with these people because the first thing you find out, like 99.999% of them didn't have a good father figure. Yeah, that was gonna be a question their childhood. Now, isn't that startling? I mean, none of them did. I can name like two clients who had strong father figures, and one of them he was a criminal too, so good luck with that. And then, like basic skills, you know, we tell people to get out of jail, get up in the morning, go get a job, go to work. They've never done that before. You know what's crazy, Amy,

Jury Psychology And Lawyer Likability

SPEAKER_00 14:40

is I'd send them out to get a job application. And then so I was like, why aren't they getting any of these jobs? So I'd have them bring them back and we'd fill them out together. Well, they'd put like their gang member names on there uh for references, and I'm like, why are you doing that? And they'd put like twig or whatever they were called on there, and they're like, Well, that because they'll say good thanks. They had no clue. They just don't know how to do it. It wasn't they were trying to be difficult or you know, so I'd make them bring it in, we'd do the application, fill it out. They didn't have bank accounts, they didn't know how to open a bank account.

SPEAKER_05 15:20

By a license, they probably didn't have a license half of them.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Yeah, and the fees just add up and add up and add up. So now we have a program where they can do slow pays, but back in the day, I would like try to get court costs written off by judges. And you know, you read it and you're thinking, look at all these people, they don't have driver's licenses, they're terrible, blah, blah, blah. And then you look, they've got like $17,000 in fees. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:49

They do that. Like my brother, I've I've just watched him go through this trying to even get a license. You know what I mean? Like, they make this stuff so confusing, and the paperwork and the just all the hoops you got to jump through to do anything. Like, I I hate shit like that because I am terrible at any kind of like, I just get so nervous if I hear the word metro. I'm just like, oh shit. You know, I don't like that word. I just can't stand that word. Because it's all, I don't know, I don't trust it. You know I can't see that far.

SPEAKER_07 16:25

It's a trap.

SPEAKER_05 16:26

Yeah, it is a trap. It totally is a trap. They're not good at doing it. And there's no way out of it.

SPEAKER_07 16:34

And then once they start, man, it's like 10 days in jail. 20 days in jail.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

And then once you're and once you're in the system, quite honestly, if you look at all those rules, I'd probably fail probation. Definitely community corrections.

SPEAKER_05 16:48

I get nervous if a cop's behind me when I ain't even doing nothing wrong. You know what I mean? It's like, it just makes me nervous. Like, I got pulled over down by music row, and the cop, he he like pulled me over because he said I stopped too far behind uh like the stop sign. I don't I didn't even know that was a thing. And then yeah, it was like I was just confused. And then he was like, Well, let me ask you, what are you doing in this part of town? And I'm thinking, and I was like, I'm a songwriter, I'm a work over here, you know, like, but I've just and then one time this cop pulled me up, they make me so nervous that one time this cop pulled me over and he was asking for my insurance card or whatever, and I gave him my blue cross blue shield because I was so flipped out by him. But like, I've have you ever seen like cops try to kind of frame somebody?

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Well, I've seen great ones and I've seen horrible ones. Yeah, I've seen great ones too. Yeah, I mean, most of them really go in for a good sense of purpose, but then there's some really bad ones. Yeah. You know, I remember that one cop, he had tattooed on the inside of his mouth each, and he he would stand between the guy in the car. That was when you just had the dash cams, and he would pull that down. Oh gosh, and then when whoever he pulled over went off, then he could beat the living tar out of him. He ended up going to the penitentiary, but he did. Oh, yeah. I was so happy. That's good. Yeah, he beat up somebody so bad after hours they were in a coma.

SPEAKER_05 18:32

Oh, and thank God, thank God for those freaking body cams they wear. Can you imagine the stuff that went on before those? No, I mean, as I say, most of them are great, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

There's a few bad ones that really, and those are frightening.

SPEAKER_05 18:51

Yeah. I agree. Like in that Karen Reed trial, there was this one guy, the one that got fired, like the way he was talking about people and saying, like, let them die, you know, like they don't matter, and calling people the N-word and like calling her the C word. I mean, that guy was awful. Like, I can't remember his name, but he got fired. They let him go, thankfully. But that whole town just seemed like just corrupt, you know, like, and then so did that town that um Murdaw, Alec Murdaw was from, you know, because his whole family was in law for so long and they ruled the town. What's that thing, Chris, called? That thing when they're like when you already made your mind up that somebody did disposed. Yeah. And you're trying to connect the dots to make it true. You already got it and you've decided this is what happened. And then you're like gonna make that the ever everything you think from that point forward is just trying to prove yourself right.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Well, you've seen that in the recent DUIs and stuff too. I mean, but we all have it in one form or fashion. You see how somebody dresses, and you know, the reality is you are gonna judge people on their appearances. So it is hard to do. But when you get a predisposition as a detective or something else, yeah, that can be frightening.

SPEAKER_05 20:16

Hopefully, the shows and all the crime like shows have kind of showed people how, because there's so many cases they could have solved way earlier if they just had not already decided somebody else did it. You know, like so. What all like what all does a criminal defense lawyer like what who all do you work for?

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Oh, from

Guilt Innocence Race And Money

SPEAKER_00 20:41

oh, that's funny. Uh yeah, you're kind of the black sheep of the family because they all do civil law and they all make a lot of more money than I do.

SPEAKER_05 20:52

Civil law?

SPEAKER_00 20:53

All the rest of the things. In a minute, you gotta tell me what civil law even means, because I don't know. Civil means money, criminal means you can go to jail. That's only definitely so you have every end of the spectrum because I'm like then on speed doll when somebody from everything from they get a traffic ticket to, you know, they've killed somebody.

SPEAKER_05 21:14

So it's have you done so you've done murder trials? Yes. So what are what's different about those? Like what are you ever scared of the people?

SPEAKER_00 21:23

I have only in all my years been scared of one defendant. And um, whoa, he was a scary dude. Um I won't say the case or anything because I can't, but um I can say uh this was now in like federal cases, they tell you you can't give the evidence to the defendant, certain parts of it, even the state now does it. But back in the day, I've been doing this 32 years. I let him know like who the witnesses were were, and two of Just disappeared. One of them that was in a um correctional facility.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

He was and another one that was in protective custody, totally gone. The white house wiped and everything. And that fellow was scary. And uh that would scare me to death.

SPEAKER_05 22:18

Or so have you ever felt like they might find you if you don't do what they say? Now you can find anybody.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Well, that's why I quit practicing law one time. I've had two stalkers. Oh my gosh. That's so scary.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

So scary.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

One was this guy, and he was so crazy, and he was crazy looking. Um he was, but the problem was I kept arresting him for because he looked crazy. Yeah. And if you saw him, you would go, Yeah. And so he always got back out and he would like stalk me and uh be at the DA's office when I was there and all around. And well what did he want? He had no idea. And then he used, oh, I'd forgotten about this part. He used, I get a call from the federal court, and they said, Did you just file a lawsuit? And I'm like, No, I'm in the DA's office. Why would I be? But anyway, and uh he had used my name and filed a federal lawsuit, and among it, he had like listed a couple of judges in Nashville, and he had listed Diana Ross for some reason. And Bill Hance, he was uh federal guy, he was like, I didn't think you'd file this, and he sent me a copy, and I was like, That's crazy as like, but um, one of them showed up at my child's school, and that's when I quit practicing law one of the times.

SPEAKER_05 23:50

I would yeah, that would just be too much.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

That was really frightening. And my mom was a principal, luckily, so we took care of it, but and that was really scary.

SPEAKER_05 24:01

That would be terrifying. Like, so did any of them ever threaten you or did they just do stuff like that wasn't so obvious?

SPEAKER_00 24:10

It wasn't so obvious, but yeah, it was enough for me to quit when that guy showed up.

SPEAKER_05 24:15

So do you do you feel like with the defendant, like is how much likability goes into that? Like we were talking about the lawyers. If the lawyer is like obnoxious or something, like it could hurt the case. But what about like the actual defendant? Like if they get up to, you know, like testify and they're super charming or something.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

It really depends. Yeah, I've had both ways. Well, first of all, appearances I always stand out in the hall before they ever get in the courtroom. Yeah, you tell them what to wear, and by Gumshagalis, they don't.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

You know, they show up with the earrings up to here, and I'm like, hand them over.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

You know, my favorite were like the ones who were accused drug dealers, and they'd come in and all this bling, and I'd be like, no, and I'd keep goodwill suits, and they're like, I'm not gonna wear that. And I'm like, well, then you're gonna be wearing orange. So what do you want to do?

SPEAKER_05 25:12

I love that. That's the thing, like my brother, like, because he spent some time in jail, and he's one of the best people I know. I mean, like, seriously, he's one of the best people I know. And most people would say that about him, you know, but like it's drug stuff, like always. Like, um, how so like he told me once that like in jail, that as far as the people in jail, like the criminals go, like 80% of them were like good people. And then like the like some of those guards, like he thought there was more predators that were guards than he did like the people in there. A lot of them just had bad drug problems. That's the majority now, big time. Do you think like because we heard a police officer say that um that they see people on the worst, like in the worst moments of their life? You know what I mean? Like, and then like because sometimes you could see somebody in a mugshot and they're they're you you can't even believe it when you see them smiling in a polo shirt that it's the same person. Oh, exactly. How much do you think drugs have to do with like just crime in general? Oh, way up there.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

I'd say getting close to 80%. Man, that's so sad. But there's two there's two ways. Um, one way is uh usually drugs or alcohol are

The System Trap Fees Probation Life Skills

SPEAKER_00 26:40

involved in like most everything because people act bad when they do it. Yeah, and then they're the people who are stealing and stuff to support drug habits, yeah. And then a big group are you're mentally ill who are self-medicating.

SPEAKER_05 26:55

Yeah, yeah. I didn't, yeah, because I think probably 75% at least of the people homeless are mentally ill. Yeah, like because we we were in like either LA or New York, and we were driving, and we were like, I know I think we were in LA, but somebody was just laying in the street, you know, gonna get killed, like, and nobody does anything. You know, I think because people are afraid. Like I have like tried to help some homeless people before that scared me, you know, like they kind of flipped on me real quick. Because it's hard to not like, and I've also like bought a hamburger for somebody who blew me a kiss and it just hurt my, you know, like so you want to give people the benefit of the doubt, but like I feel like so many of those people are good people with bad circumstances. Oh, exactly. Like you said about the father figure and not having somebody to help them and like just show, just guide them in some way. Um, so what's the most dramatic thing you've seen in the courtroom?

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Oh my gosh, there have been all kinds of craziness. Um, there was a one time the lawyer asked the question too many. He went to the penitentiary over it. Um the lawyer asked The lawyer went to the penitentiary? Oh yeah. Um now they just get like order in food. But when they used to have jury trials in Nashville, there was a lady who would cook, and my gosh, it was so good. So I would like try to sneak in there right before lunch, and she then you could kind of get a meal out of the deal. So I went into Tom Triver. Oh, I loved him. He was the best judge. I think. Oh, he he was a DA and then he was a judge. Yeah. So I was sneaking in there to get him to sign an order. But and all of a sudden, you know, so I'm not really paying attention. And this attorney goes, And why did you change your story? And the witness says, Because you paid me $4,000. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, Tom Shriver just like levitates up. It seemed like, and then he was like, in my chambers, and went running in there and didn't even mess with the jury, so they were trying to figure that one out. Yeah, that was bad.

SPEAKER_05 29:19

That do you watch the jury like when you're in there, like defending some A? Do you is it okay to like check in and see their responses and stuff? Oh, absolutely. Can you know, like I'm obsessed with body language, and so is Chris. Like we watch this guy, um, Dr. G explains, like we watch him, he breaks down body language, so we've learned a lot of it, but people instinctually know most of it, you know, like and so it seems like you could watch the jury and kind of tell who's on your side or who's who believes they're guilty, who believes they're innocent, especially if they're crying or something like that they can't hide. Like I've seen some stuff like where you see pictures, and like there was that case of that guy. I can't remember the details because it was too sad to watch, but he was like in a UPS or FedEx truck and he killed that little girl. And and like everybody in the courtroom when they showed pictures, everybody in the jury was crying, you know.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

Yeah, well, you're taking me back to a case this is a mental health case, but um gosh, that was with Barbara Haynes when she was actually way, way back when she was at general sessions. This poor lady lost her mind. She had been a normal stay-at-home mom, blah, blah, blah. And anyway, the dad came home and she had put the baby in the turkey roaster and cooked her in the oven.

SPEAKER_05 30:49

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

And I'll never forget those pictures.

SPEAKER_05 30:52

Do you say things that'll haunt you forever?

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Yeah, some things like that. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. That'll haunt you.

SPEAKER_05 30:59

Yeah, I don't know how, like, because stuff like that, you can't get it out of your head. No.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

There there's no way. Or like the one where she fell off the back of the motorcycle and they ran over her head. I that was yeah, those are gruesome.

SPEAKER_05 31:14

That so, like, when you see something like that, like, and you've gotta try to take I've always wor wondered, like, and you gotta try to defend somebody when the whole place just saw it. That's gotta be awful.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Oh yeah, I wouldn't defend in that lady. And yeah, she's she she didn't luckily she never got vaccinated. She would have that would have terrified.

SPEAKER_05 31:36

Did you just like has there been people you just said no, I ain't doing it?

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Oh, absolutely, like child predators. Yes, yeah, because I don't think they change. I don't know. I represented one that I was appointed to, and it was uh post-conviction, and so he he had already been convicted, but we almost were getting it overturned and I went to meet with him out at this place. Um, they kept him on Centennial Boulevard, uh, and he started telling me about um other things he had done over the years, and I was like screaming at him to shut up.

SPEAKER_05 32:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

And the guards even came once a matter. I was like, you know, and the rest of that hearing, oh my gosh, I I couldn't even eat breakfast in the morning because I thought I would throw up or something. Just having to sit beside him.

SPEAKER_05 32:32

And one interesting thing to me is like vibes, people's vibes. Did you feel that from him before you heard?

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Yeah. He looked like a little nerdy boy scout. So you wouldn't have thought it looking at him.

SPEAKER_05 32:49

Which it uh. Which you think you'd know. Yeah, you would think you would know. That's so true. We had the very craziest thing happen to us. Like, it's been 20 years ago. Okay, so Chris and me were at this restaurant called Sportsman's Grill. I don't think it exists anymore. It's still there. It is, it's been there like a million years. We would go eat barbecue on cornbread. It was delicious. And so we're in there and we're sitting there, and Chris is keeps looking over at this guy next to us, and he was like, We gotta go. And we just got our food. And I'm like, Well, why? And he's like, Just Amy, we gotta go. And I didn't understand, and I was like, Well, I'll go, but you gotta tell me why. And he said, This this guy over here has done something really, really bad. And so I really studied that guy before we left, but I didn't feel I didn't feel the feelings that Chris was feeling off him. You know what I mean? Like, but I really, really, really memorized him in my head. And so when we went out to the parking lot, Chris was like, that guy has done something so bad. The energy coming off of him almost made me hysterical. He was like, I I felt like I was gonna start laughing and crying and not be able to. He said, I've never, ever, ever experienced anything like this. And so we, he was like, I feel like we should call the police, but what am I gonna tell them? Then fast forward like maybe a couple years, and we were in the hospital. We had just had Oscar. So they came to get him and they take him to the nursery, and we're just in there, and everything's like so great, you know. We just had a newborn, like, and then um and it's like around 11 o'clock at night, and the news is on, and I look up and I'm like, holy shit,

Bad Cops Body Cams And Predisposition

SPEAKER_05 34:50

that is that guy. That's that guy from Sportsman's Grill. It was just like, I was sure of it too, because I really, really studied him. What did they catch him for? Well, you're not gonna believe who he was. Who? He and I was like, Well, he'll have to be in Tennessee or around Tennessee for this to be, but I just knew it was. It was the BTK killer. Is that who it was? Who was it? He was a killer.

SPEAKER_07 35:18

Somebody East East Tennessee serial killer.

SPEAKER_05 35:21

But no, he was like a major guy.

SPEAKER_07 35:23

No, he was a major serial killer.

SPEAKER_05 35:25

You might know the case because he got out of jail in Kansas. Okay, this guy, he was torturing people at the zoo. I don't know if you know this case. He was torturing women at the zoo, and like somehow he had got out on some kind of weird loophole for mental illness, and he was out of jail for like two or three years, and then they then they arrested him again. But I need to look up exactly who this guy was, but it was him, and he went back to jail, but he was in Tennessee, and I knew it. I mean, when I saw it, it happened before like that.

SPEAKER_07 36:03

He was right next to us, his clothes were super ill-fitting, you know what I mean? Like, and he was so uncomfortable, and then I kept he I he he made me feel hysterical. I've never had this happen where I felt so bad, but it was like a reverse, and it was making me try I was gonna hysterically laugh.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

I get that, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 36:29

Hysteria, and I've never had that in my whole life, and there was no way I could stay in there by him. And I it I swear it was it it was like I could feel heat coming off of him.

SPEAKER_05 36:40

It worried me because I didn't feel never had that again.

SPEAKER_07 36:44

It was just that one time. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 36:45

It's so scary. Why do you think that predator, that child predator, wanted to tell you that stuff?

SPEAKER_00 36:52

I do not know, but there's something weird about me as far as people just try to want to start telling me stories. Yeah. And he just started spouting it off.

SPEAKER_05 37:03

Was he getting excited by telling you? Sometimes you'll see stuff like that, like if we watch YouTube about like where the criminal gets excited just telling about what he did.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Maybe or I don't know. It was things he hadn't done. What scared me was he worked for a group that worked with young boys here in Nashville and had been there for a few years, and that I was so creepy because I was just like, whoa.

SPEAKER_05 37:31

It's terrifying. Like if you get online and look at the um sexual predator, like that list. It's so scary because they're everywhere, and like they'll be way more near you than you expect, you know, always. Okay, so say somebody gets pulled over. There's two different ones with questions with this. Say somebody gets pulled over and they've had like three drinks, and they probably might pass the little walk-in test or whatever they do, but what should they do with the cop?

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Well, that's such a problem. It's a couch 22 now, because if you refuse the testing and stuff, you know, your license gets automatically revoked. Oh, really? If you refuse, yeah. And um go get a warrant and get your blood anyway, but I'd never tell them I'd been drinking. Yeah, yeah. So never tell them that. And I love it when they always why do people always say I've just had two. Yes, they always say that.

SPEAKER_05 38:35

There's um, there's this guy that Chris and me freaking love. You should watch him, especially. You'll love it being a lawyer. His name is Bruce Rivers, and he's got the craziest theme song. Like he's got a YouTube show, and he sells this stuff like a hat and a little cup thing, but his whole thing is stop self-snitching. Like absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Oh my gosh, I had one guy that was in uh it was a murder for drive by shooting, and he he confessed to the cameras. And then he wanted me to file a motion saying it was a body double. And I'm like, dude, where do they think they're gonna get a body double for you? Really?

SPEAKER_05 39:20

Oh my gosh. So, okay, so somebody gets pulled over, so don't tell them you've had any drinks at all. Should you talk to them at all or what? Really, you shouldn't. Um, you shouldn't that's people need to know that because some people might have had two drinks and might be okay. Exactly. I we tell our kids all the time, just don't drink and drive because somebody the other night, Levi, thankfully he hadn't been drinking or nothing, he's coming home and and he comes in her room. He was so upset, and he was like, There was there was some girl in the dark, in the rain, in the middle of the street. He's like, Thank God I was really paying attention. And she's just in the street. And Chris and me were like, What? Why you think she's okay? You know, we rode back up there looking for her. We didn't find her, but had he been drinking and hit her, it like even though she was in the street, it doesn't matter, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Or if somebody's at fault, it'll automatically change if you're drunk. So just don't say you've been drinking.

SPEAKER_05 40:23

No, yeah, no, I love your life.

SPEAKER_06 40:27

Like, no, like, no, that's what that must mean when he's like, no self-snitching.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

It's like, no, don't say well, what do you say to the cops? No, I haven't been drinking, you know.

SPEAKER_06 40:42

Oh my gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

You're not supposed to lie to him, maybe, but uh I've seen cops lie like um like they can, you know, they can lie to you to get you to confess, and the courts have upheld that the police can lie.

SPEAKER_05 40:56

Did you see that show about um it was the one how to make a murder or whatever that was? Like it was they they had a boy in there that was slow. You could tell he was slow. They were feeding him the answers, and he didn't know. They're like, Well, how did you kill her? You know, and he's like, scissors, like, and then he was like hair, like cutting hair, and that it nothing he said had anything to do with what happened to the girl, but they're leading him till they

Courtroom Chaos And Haunting Evidence

SPEAKER_05 41:30

got him to say what they wanted him to say, and it's so obvious, and that kid is still in jail. It was it was another place where it was real fishy, like the it seems like you have those counties that just they just get corrupt somehow. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

It's kind of like you know which towns have speed traps.

SPEAKER_05 41:51

Oh yeah, and they're just waiting. Exactly. That like um, because you helped us so much with Oscar when he had like spray painted on an abandoned building. And the crazy thing is like he quit doing it after that. It freaked him out and scared him. And thank you so much for doing that. We our whole family like always has talked about how much we all love you. That was just so great to have somebody telling us what to do and telling him what to do. He loves you too. Um, he he was like so happy. Oh, he's so sweet, he's so sweet. Like it, but the crazy thing is like a year later, somebody had been like, he quit doing it, thankfully. I threw all that shit away. I found like a laundry basket full of paint. I got rid of it. But he um had a friend who was signing his. Well, I don't know if he was signing whatever Oscar was using as a tag, but he was signing the name Oscar. And so a cop called and was telling him they knew he did it, they had him on camera, all this stuff, but he didn't do it. And he knew he didn't do it because he didn't do it. And the cop was straight out lying to him. And Oscar just hung up on him. And I was thinking, I don't know if you're supposed to just hang up on him, but he's like, I didn't do it. I know I didn't do it. I wasn't even anywhere near there. I was at home, you know what I mean? Like he he was, you know, he didn't do it, and so but that cop was trying to trick him. Oh, absolutely. Do they do that a lot? If they think you did something, oh yeah, that's the thing. If they think you did it, which is that pred disposition which you're talking about. Yes, they'll try to prove it to make themselves right. And I think that's how kind of it is with cops, because if they like, you know, it seems like it's hard for them to admit somebody was innocent.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Well, yeah, and especially, I mean, there's like family names, you know. I've had some of those where it's really hard to get out from a Under it.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Because they're like, well, you know who his dad is. And because you'll see on down the line. And in a bad way, you know who is. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:11

My dad was crazy. So I totally get it. There's a story Chris loves about my dad that my dad went, he loved to go to the courthouse cafe and eat the country ham. He always went weird places to eat. But there's a story we love so much that his friend, my dad died at four, it was the day of his 49th birthday. He had a heart attack and we found him at his birthday party. It was an absolute nightmare. But um, so his best friend, though, Bob Regan, I had him on the podcast and he tells he tells this story that I love so much. So my dad took Bob to eat at the Courthouse Cafe. And um, but that wasn't weird because my dad would go to old folks' homes. He'd go anywhere he liked the food. And so he's like, let's go check on my case. I got an outstanding case or something. So they go upstairs, and my dad asked to see his file. It was before the internet, and so they let him look at it and he put it in his jacket.

SPEAKER_07 45:16

Before digital files.

SPEAKER_05 45:18

Yeah. Before the internet, he puts it in his like jacket, and he's like, Let's get the fuck out of here.

SPEAKER_06 45:26

And then they go and they're walking down the alley, and Bob said, My dad goes and throws that file in the dumpster and said, Casedis mist. So then it was like he was just a nut.

SPEAKER_05 45:42

He was always in trouble. Like he never he didn't do any like bad stuff. He just did dumb, crazy stuff. Like he took a bunch of acid and went to jail naked, and like he was in some lady's front yard. Like he was bipolar. So he was he was so fun and he was so like sad. It went back and forth.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

Did you ever do nothing? Yeah, I actually was.

SPEAKER_07 46:06

Maybe you used to go with her dad and just go watch. But apparently you can't get away. I used to love to go watch it. Oh, I don't know. Somebody told me that.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Oh, that's so sad. I hope you're gonna get it. I get so sad when they put up the bulletproof glass because it took off the ambience. Um, I I sat in there when one of the commissioners fell out and nobody else had a key, so they had to break down the door to get him out. Oh my gosh. So I did his shifts while he was in the hospital. So there was a few weeks of being night court, and that is that is great fun.

SPEAKER_05 46:38

I loved night court.

Cases She Refuses Child Predators

SPEAKER_05 46:40

Like my dad went, well, I wasn't in there, of course, but my dad, I've heard the stories. He went to night court that night he got arrested doing it on acid and in that lady's yard naked. He went to night court in a sheet, and they said it kept falling down, and that he was cracking, he was very funny, but he was cracking everybody up that was in there, and it was the judge even laughed a couple times, but then the judge started getting like pissed, you know. But my dad was a trip. He was always, he just did shit he shouldn't do, you know, and he didn't he he was impulsive. That was the best word. Just impulsive, like he would do the craziest stuff. He would make like, oh, I can't, I could talk about how crazy he was forever, but he was like a good person. He just did dumb stuff. Do you deal with a lot of that? Like people that are just impulsive, like and do just things.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Usually it's drugs and alcohol that they do.

SPEAKER_05 47:43

Yeah, like the acid, I guess. Yeah. The crazy, stupid stuff. What's what's like the most shocking thing you've ever seen in court, no matter who did it? You mean as far as something that happened actually in like just some like the person on trial doing something, like like my favorite, and I'm gonna use his name, uh, was Monty Watkins.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

This is before he was a judge. And uh there were like a whole bunch of defendants, so and there were a bunch of different attorneys, so they were on this whole row, and Monty had one of them. He's such a cool guy, and his his defendant is sitting out there filling out his post-conviction form the whole trial, which means how what your attorney's doing wrong to try to overturn it. And then at one point at the end, when Monty was speaking and they're giving it, you know, their talk or whatever, the guy gets up and punches Monty. And all the all the court officers are jumping around and tackled the guy and everything. And Monty was such a cool guy, he just straightened up his suit jacket and went on like nothing had happened. Oh my god, that's insane! Yeah, it was crazy.

SPEAKER_05 49:01

So, okay, so what do you think is the difference being like working on both sides of the fence here? Like, like prosecution's not much, it's not fun.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

I didn't like it. You have to prove something, and well, I did domestic violence when they started the domestic violence unit, and um it was I didn't didn't like it.

SPEAKER_05 49:22

How many times do the women go back?

SPEAKER_00 49:25

That's what okay all the time. Well, you gotta remember this is the late 90s, so it was a very different mindset. You know, in Tennessee it used to be legal to beat your wife as the rod was no bigger than your thumb. I believe it. When did that stop nine or like you know, I don't know the exact date, but I I know like Rose was the one who finally changed it because it was ill you couldn't keep your maiden name when you got married. And that was until the 80s. That's crazy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 49:56

You couldn't even get like a credit card in your name till like I remember looking this up until around the time I was born. Like, you couldn't even get your own credit card. And it makes me so sad. Like, we were going through this um cemetery in Gedston in my hometown in Alabama, and it'll say, like, Miss Mrs. Henry Jackson, it doesn't have her name at all. Oh, look at it, yeah, that's the same way here in Nashville, and and it's barely getting better. I love that our kids' generation is like changing. I just love like because we have kids the same age and they're like in in college off on their own, doing their own thing. Like, but I love how they love people. Oh, yeah. They they don't judge people the same as when I was growing up. They like and also like I was talking to my uncle about this, like from Alabama, growing up in a small town because he's gay. And I was saying, I feel like now that I feel like people are afraid of anything they don't understand. You know what I mean? Like if they if they don't, if they hadn't seen it and don't understand it, that's why I think people are racist. You know, they don't, they're not, they're just as scared of everything. And like so, with our kids, they're so accepting of everybody. And that to me, it's such a beautiful thing. That's a big change. It's so different.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

Well, Nashville was black or white, yeah. That was it, totally, and um, I mean, we still had blue sky laws growing up. What's that mean? That means everything was closed on Sunday. I mean, like everything was closed.

SPEAKER_05 51:43

Yes, I remember that. Yes, I remember that. Yes, I remember that. Like, that's so everything to do with that kind of stuff is so crazy to me. Like, because like people can make it illegal to

The Serial Killer Vibe Story

SPEAKER_05 52:00

it's legal to drink and get trashed, but it's and it's legal to carry around like like hydrocodon in your purse on an airplane and everywhere, and nobody cares. But like anything growing natural, they're they're like arresting people for weight. It's like the if you can grow it in the backyard. You can't grow hydrocodon in the backyard, and it's like the problem and the fentanyl. You know what I mean? Like it's it's really crazy. But I just was talking to somebody and learning that it's the freaking, like the what do you call them, the pharmaceutical big pharma or whatever that are keeping that stuff?

SPEAKER_00 52:42

Well, and what's so sad is like um I've had two people die from fentanyl-laced marijuana. Oh shit, are you serious? Yeah, I didn't believe it the first one. I made them bring in the death certificate. Because I was like, no way. And um, I was like, gosh, I was warning my kid. That's just frightening. It's frightening and it's wrong. Very wrong. Because that client had had a major drug problem, but it was from a car accident, and he was given all kinds of oxycodone, whatever. I don't know exactly. But and then he got addicted, and so the doctor was like, Oh, I can't give you anymore. Sent him to a pain center. The pain center was shut down by all this stuff, so he really had a hard time. When he got himself to marijuana, I was like, Well, hey, go for it. Yeah. And sure enough, he bought some fentanyl-laced marijuana.

SPEAKER_05 53:40

And to me, I blame the government for that. Me too.

SPEAKER_00 53:43

If it had been legal, I don't think it would have happened.

SPEAKER_05 53:49

And they like, you know what you're getting. I mean, like, there's a guy I know that's a songwriter, and he used to always complain because he was kind of self-medicating with it, but it did help him. It made him act more normal, even smoking. It really did. But he was talking about like his weed dealer always wanted to write songs when he would go. He would have to write songs with the guy, like when he would go get weed, but still you don't know where it's coming from.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

You have no idea.

SPEAKER_05 54:19

And and they're stamping all those like pills, too. You know, they buy those presses that stamp them, and you think it's like, oh my gosh, whatever they're called.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

Some of them they picked up that are so counterfeit and stuff. They look exactly real. How would you even know?

SPEAKER_07 54:36

It's a pill press you can buy from China, and it'll stamp out a whatever, like it'll say Watson 400. And if you look that up, that'll be a Percocet or whatever. And they're doing fentanyl, and these kids are taking them thinking they're out of a somebody's medicine cabinet, and it it's killing people. It looks just like it's horrible.

SPEAKER_05 54:56

Like Alabama, it there's no hope. It's like there's no opportunity. They take all the jobs out of there, and then like, what are these people supposed to do? You know?

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Yeah, um, there's a great book too about Kentucky and that.

SPEAKER_05 55:11

Because uh those documentaries about Kentucky. Oh those people never went to jail, like those people, that family, what are they called? That fan cycler, no, the family, yeah. Those that family never went to jail, like those people, like you're talking about money, they don't go to jail, like one-eighth of their wealth, and they got like a billion dollars and or billions of dollars off of that, and they knew it was getting people addicted to it, and they just didn't care, they just wanted more money. It's so messed up, it's so messed up.

SPEAKER_07 55:45

I'm thinking about have you had have you had a client that you really felt like was innocent and they and you feel like the prosecution got a guilty verdict, but they were it was wrong?

SPEAKER_00 55:58

Luckily, I've won those trials. Everyone that I knew was innocent. Thank goodness, and there were a couple of them that were so frightening. Um gosh, that was terrifying. Yeah. One of them was uh set up. He was a trooper.

SPEAKER_07 56:15

Your client was set up?

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Pretty much. He was an officer, and uh the guy who reported him was a detective and said that a child his child had been molested because he was a step parent and it was all not true, and um that and keeping it out of the press and stuff like this. Um that was so, you know, having to manipulate it around in the court so it wouldn't get in

Traffic Stops DUI And Stop Self Snitching

SPEAKER_00 56:45

the newspaper. Because once that's in the newspaper or something, your your job, your life is over.

SPEAKER_05 56:53

How much does that have to do with it if somebody is like if it's all out in the news in public, like something like Kieran Reed?

SPEAKER_00 57:01

Like uh Well, that's what's so sad now, because everything is like pictures and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 57:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:07

And like we have David Um Wolf who's out in our jurisdiction and he puts everything on YouTube, all the court proceedings. Now, uh if I I'm gonna have a big trial, I wouldn't let him do that for the simple fact a witness could sit there, you know. If you're a witness in a case, you gotta go sit out in the hall until you're called. So you can't hear what the other people are saying and change your testimony to that.

SPEAKER_02 57:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:36

Well, you know, witnesses are not your most savory people all the time. Yeah. And so if you're streaming it on YouTube, you could just go right back in the hall and sit there and watch and see what the other people are saying. Oh my gosh, I never thought of that. Yeah, and that's kind of that's really frightening.

SPEAKER_05 57:58

What was how much do you think I had to do when they used to make people wear that like pol like the whatever you call it, the uniform from jail or whatever in court?

SPEAKER_00 58:08

Oh, well, you can't wear it in front of the jury. They make a change for the jury, they wear it into court all the time.

SPEAKER_05 58:15

How how long's that been going when they got them to where they could wear a suit or whatever?

SPEAKER_00 58:20

As long as I've been doing it, but it's only in front of a jury. Yeah. The rest of the time they just but now they just zoom them in, which I I wonder how much you really understand when you're zoomed in.

SPEAKER_05 58:32

You can't feel the energy. It's I think it's so different.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

Well, and you uh you can't hear that well in the jail facility, so they knowingly entering that plea, and I don't know, it's just so many things with the electronics these days, and uh every time we take one step forward, it's like changes everything.

SPEAKER_05 58:55

It's like you can't really commit, which is good. You can't and it's got it's uh it's got its ups and downs, but that you can't commit a crime like you used to, because like they'll have proof of everything.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

Well, even in civil cases, like if I sue you or you uh or I've had this happen in businesses, we have what's called e-discovery now. So they can like uh for a business when they sue different businesses, they would like get everybody's emails. Well uh everything you've done can be downloaded and looked through. Yeah, it's crazy. Right. So if you've co-mingled, you know, we had to have a lot of talks with people, keep it separate separate when eDiscovery came in, and now you know, in even in divorces, the discovery asked for what are your passwords? Where's your social media? I did not know that. And uh oh yeah, and I mean, go on match.com. I can't tell you used that before and seeing them, you know, soliciting for somebody else saying, you know, I am a widow or widow, either one, and using that, and they're like still married.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:10

Did you see that um documentary on Netflix about the staircase? Uh-uh. Okay, that documentary, Chris and me got obsessed with it. I think, I think this guy, a neighbor figured it out, but the guy would not admit to killing his wife. He, I don't think he did kill his wife.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:32

Pretty famous author or semi-famous author. The cops would not let go of this caca movie theory. He pushed her down the stairs.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:41

Yeah. And the guy in North Carolina.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:45

Yes, and they kept saying, Well, we'll let you out of jail to you.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:48

She had these busy marks. Like she had these marks on the back of the head.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:52

She had these claw marks on the back of her head, and it was it, it was an owl. Somebody else got attacked by the same owl. Yeah. And they put it together. She was drunk.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:01

Walking in the house, and that owl gone. Yes.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:07

And they those cops were so awful. They never let up. They will never admit that that's what it was. It was ego. Total ego.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:15

Well, and they've made up their mind. They've made up their mind. But I mean, it's kind of like I hated the color yellow. Didn't know why. Found out it was my mother's favorite color. Well, she used to annoy the daylights out of me during that time period. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. You know, so that's once we make up our minds about something or someone, you know, like in school, I used to teach my kids this because I'd sit right up front that first six weeks, and man, I was the best brown noser

Drugs Opioids And Fentanyl Risk

SPEAKER_00 1:01:50

in the world. And then I'd slowly migrate back. You could do anything after that first six weeks because they already had made up your mind you were the perfect student. Yeah. And um That's good. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:03

You know, and then I'd go to the back, you know, and I wonder like how much of that stuff plays into it.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:09

Like, say say you were judges at eleven o'clock. This has been studied. They'll decide at 11 when they're hungry versus one after they ate or two, and they will just they're harder.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:23

Blood sugar.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:24

When their blood sugar's down. They have actually studied this. They'll go they'll go easier on people after watching.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:31

Oh, how funny.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:32

They've done it with married people. I know they did it with married people.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:35

Like years ago.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:36

Because they're hungry and they'll just be like, Well, you talk about judges.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

Look years ago, there were only four criminal courts in Nashville. Now you got a whole slew of the suckers, but back then there were four. Every time I filed the motion, I'd this way before computers, I had a uh an um the folder that the motion went into had each judge's name. And when I argued it in front of, I went back to the points they liked or didn't like. And um, you know, there was one judge who you would bring in the family dog, play a violin, and I'd go on and on, uh, bring in mama. And uh, and that was the way to go. And then, you know, I at the other end of the hall, you had the other one, and I won a hearing just because the prosecutor went on and on and on. So when they got to me, I said, My my um announcement or whatever, it's gonna be four sentences, and this is the first one, and then I told him what I wanted with the other three, and immediately got it because he wanted it bam, bam, bam. That's so good, but you know, it's always about that's what was so frustrating. I love the law, uh the law and I have a love-hate relationship because I love it, but then it's you know, uh like you get somebody off and then you go home and realize who you just let off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it is about the people and the dynamics. You knew which, you know, there was one judge, man, she was something else. She was something, but I loved her because I knew I actually had to work my hardest and get the case law right, do the research, and whatever I did for her, I could do it anywhere else. Yeah. And um it's always about the personalities.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:36

And we're dealing with people, so the judge, you could have like a like a defendant or whatever that has the same name as the girl that cheat that her husband cheated on her with, and then she hates that name subconsciously. You know what I mean? Just these weird things that that just play into it that don't have anything to do with it. Which is freaky, but it's reality. Would you say it's like 50-50 on that stuff? Or can how much can people see past?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:13

It depends on who you're talking about. Like, you know, certain judges are uh that had predispositions that they're not gonna let say you worked. Did you know some judges that were racist? Oh, absolutely, especially in smaller counties. Oh, I bet. I'm not gonna name the county, but this was years ago, and uh sheriff literally told me in the small county any black man who owns a Cadillac is a drug dealer, and I was like, Oh, we're in deep doo doo.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:41

Yeah, oh, big time.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:42

Yeah, we we lost, we won on appeal. He was this, and then I go in front of the judge. This is in a tiny county in West Tennessee, and the judge said, This little lady says she's an attorney. Oh, luckily, I was in a good this is so funny because luckily. I was in a good mood that day. So I was like, that's what my bar card says. And then if if a prosecutor asks you a question and you don't object, you wave your objection. Well, this prosecutor kept asking the same question, just a tiny bit differently, over and over. So I kept objecting. And the judge said, if you object one more time, you're going to jail. And I said, Well, then I need a short break. And he said, What do you need a break for? I said, I need to call and let somebody know where I am because it looks like I'm going to jail. I love it. At that point, because I had done it like in a laughing way, he told the prosecutor to move on. So I didn't go to jail. But how much how much do you think humor has to do?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:50

Like if somebody can make the jury laugh. I always think about that. If somebody can make the jury laugh and kind of win them over.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:57

Well, that you know, that's key in four dear, just to get them to like you.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:02

But it's been my go-to because when I started practicing law, we were not allowed to wear pants in court. You know,

Public Trials YouTube And Digital Discovery

SPEAKER_00 1:07:10

women, my sister was the very first attorney in our female attorney in our family, because we go back generations to generations. My great-grandfather was the first criminal court judge in Nashville. Wow. Yeah. And uh he was a hoot. And so I had to learn how to get it, because I was called Darlin Honey, Sugar Bowl. I can't even deal with it. Well, I had to give it right back to him. Yeah, I was like, Yeah, you know, and that worked for me.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:41

And I think guys will never understand, like, the way, like, calm down, just all the stuff. It's like, you calm down, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think they'll ever understand like all the things women have to deal with. Like, that's one thing our daughter like points out how sex is things are that I never noticed. I mean, I never noticed. And just humor always works.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:07

Humor is like it can get you out of stuff, like because otherwise you get called to bitch and all that stuff, and then that comes somebody that can make people laugh.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:18

It's like you have a little something, you know, if you can make them laugh. It really is a superpower. Because usually you're pointing out the truth, or it wouldn't be funny, you know. Like that, that's part of it. Well, you learned how to play it. Yeah, because I want to win.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:34

Yeah. So if I piss them off, I mean silly things, it's you're gonna really laugh. So I'm five foot ten. Actually, the doctor said I'm shorter now, but we're not gonna listen to him. And I would wear F me pumps, you know, back in the day. You would. Oh, absolutely. I love it. Because the funny thing is, when you negotiate with a man, if you slowly walked into him, you have to do it nonchalantly. I noticed as soon as they took a step back that you'd win. The argument. Oh, I love that. Because I learned early on that I was gonna have to use psychological warfare. Yeah, you have to, you have to, and um just little things like that. Um, and how to I always talk to the jury just like people. Yeah. And I learned that in a case it was my one of my first ones, it was a case that involved a life uh sentence. And oh man, I had written all these notes. I was so proud of myself. And then the prosecutor gets up, and man, he was magical. He remembered everybody's name, and he was just I mean, he was great. And so I was like, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do? And so I just started shredding my notes as I walked up to the podium. I said, he was really good, wasn't he? I said, Well, you know what? I'm not gonna be that good. And uh I said, I just shredded my notes because I'm not gonna remember y'all's names. My mother says I mispronounced my own, and um, because I I didn't know what to do. So I just that and I had a juror tell me that he would have never voted my guy guilty from that moment on when I was just real because you were just they related.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:19

No evidence had been brought. Yeah, and that person's being all slick and yeah, I totally get that big time. I mean, like, I think guys have no idea what women have to do to just like do half of what they do. You know what I mean? Like, it's crazy. And I've never been one of those people like that blame guys for everything, like, because when I got my publishing deal, there weren't I don't even know any, I don't even know another female that was just a songwriter. They all wanted to be artists, they were all singers, you know. Like that's true. And like that, I wasn't doing that. And it, but humor, I that's how I dealt with everything, you know. Like if some guy was being super messed up, I would call him out in front of other people, and then everybody would go crazy because it was so obvious, you know, and it was so obvious when they were being sexist and stuff in the studio. Like, I mean, it yeah, I don't think guys could ever understand like what what it's like to be female.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:25

And it was so much fun to give it right back to them. Oh, it's the best.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:29

So was there a lot of I just want to get a little more of this because I think it's great. When you started, there were a lot of good old boy club here in Tennessee.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:37

Absolutely, not as many female lawyers, and they were just like really no, there were four of us that did criminal law that did criminal law.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:46

I mean, there was gosh, yeah, none of us did, and

Sexism In Court And Humor As Strategy

SPEAKER_05 1:11:50

um getting into jails and like yeah, that was always yeah, that would be a wild thing to move into if there weren't many females because you're dealing with like criminals, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_07 1:12:04

It's like you can't really go. Well, yeah, they don't want a woman going into jail.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:10

No, they'd give you you know hard time. Like it wasn't safe, right?

SPEAKER_07 1:12:14

Did you have to take a male with you? Did you have a male at work for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:18

I just uh now I did later, but that's a kind of shady story. But um uh, you know, you were just discounted a lot. But if you learned how the secret was making friends with like court clerks, they're actually more powerful than the judges. Yes, making friends, I was always friends with the sheriffs, hung out with them, and things like that. This is pretty sneaky. But years ago, I'd say, you know, ask them if they'd want to play golf and uh hook them up with green fees, right? Well, the reality is I didn't want to play golf with a woman, and I would make sure that golf cart was packed to the hilt, like booze. I know booze, yeah. And then I'd call the night before, go, oh man, you know what? I can't make it tomorrow. Do you think y'all can find a fourth? And they'd always be like, Oh yeah, and so excited. I said, Well, but I'll be done by the time you get to the 19th hole. Yeah, honey, it worked beautifully because they didn't really want me to play. Yeah, and they'd be pretty toasted. And I'd show up at the 19th hole, and it's amazing what I got said that way.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:34

Yeah, women figure that shit out. We figure it out. But you didn't tell them in advance, you know, because men are to me, men are pretty simple. Even our dog Batman is pretty simple compared to like girlfriend, our dog, she was so complex. Like, I always tell Chris, like, Batman just wants food and a belly rub, you know what I mean? And he's happy. Oh, I like male clients much better. Oh, I yeah, I bet. Yeah, like I I bet because women are so much more complex, and women, they're just so different. And they could be meaner and crazier. Yeah, and they yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:12

Did you ever have a female murder case where you had a client charged with it? Female?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:16

Yes, I did. Yes, I did. And uh luckily then I got somebody else to handle it because it got whoa over the rainbow. Uh as far as other people that were involved in that case were had a oh yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:33

What like a conflict of interest?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:35

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:36

So like names that you couldn't say, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:38

And uh it was known people. Yeah. One girl called me because a detective had been following her, not the defendant, um, who was a girl who actually went to my high school much later, and uh she was talking to me. It turned out she had had an affair with the deceased, and I found uh all kinds of stuff behind the scenes, and I was like, Oh, I can't do this case.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:02

Oh, because you're too too involved, you know, you know too many of the players.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:06

Exactly. And I there was a lot of stuff I couldn't reveal. Yeah. So I couldn't represent her, and uh oh man, that's she end up go going to jail, she's in prison.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:18

So what advice, like in general for life, would you give people? And then what advice if like they get in trouble with the cops?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:30

Oh my gosh. I goodness gracious, I have no idea. I knew everything when I was 17 and 18 years old. Let me tell you, I'm 62, I don't even know the question. But if you ask, you know, tell me what it is, we can figure it out. Yes. But um always talk to an attorney. Uh really, you know, don't sit there for long interviews and with the police, and you know, when they bring them in and stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:58

No, talk to an attorney for no self-snitching, that's the best admit.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:04

Oh my gosh, I can't tell you how many times. Oh, by the way, we have a tape, and I'm like, are you kidding me? What did they say? Uh they'll say all kinds of things, and you're like, Why didn't you call me before you did it? Well, I could

Key Advice And Part Two Tease

SPEAKER_00 1:16:20

thought I could straighten it out, and I'm like, Yeah, you straightened it right, you know. Well, am I gonna go to jail? And I'm like, uh probably, you know, as I tell them, I'm just a speed bump on your way to jail at this point. Oh my gosh. Yeah, people are crazy. People are crazy.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:39

Because they're either gonna tell a lie they get caught in, right? They're gonna lay out. They're gonna do a dumb lie in which they've now just concreted in.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:47

Yeah, or then they'll confess to all kinds of others.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:54

I watch a lot of these videos.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:56

Okay, Miriam Fordas, right? Is that right? Okay, Miriam Fordas, you gotta come back because we got more stuff to talk about. Yeah, we didn't even talk about Bishop Bobo. We didn't talk about Bishop Bobo. We there's so many things. I've got so many questions we didn't ask. So we need to do a part two. I've been doing that a lot because there's things I remember after. You know it? But thank you for coming on here. Thank you for coming on here.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:23

It's so much fun, it's so good to see you.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:25

And I think you're gonna help people because people don't know what to do when they get pulled over. They don't know what to do if they were accused of something they didn't do, you know what I mean? Or if they did do it. I mean, like, they don't know what to do. Nobody tells people.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:40

Don't talk to the police.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:42

No self tension. You guys rock. Thank you for watching.