Why your nervous system is fried during divorce – and what you can do about it

If you've ever felt completely wired at 2am, unable to make decisions, or like you're operating purely on adrenaline – this episode is for you.

I'm joined by my brilliant friend Danielle Colley – integrative life coach and author, and someone who has walked this divorce road herself – to talk about what's actually happening to your nervous system during separation, why sleep feels impossible, how to parent through the fog, and what consistently moves women from survival mode to steadier ground.

Key Takeaways

• Your nervous system responds to divorce as though it's life-threatening danger because uncertainty activates the threat response
• Fight, flight, freeze, and fawn are all normal responses to separation stress
• Sleep disruption happens because your brain has nothing to do at night but worry – cortisol and adrenaline don't know it's bedtime
• The 'brain soup' technique – simply writing down everything in your head – can significantly reduce overnight spiralling
• You don't have to pretend to be fine in front of your children; age-appropriate honesty often brings you closer together
• Signs that you may need additional support: disengagement, inability to get out of bed, prolonged numbness or heightened emotion
• Three daily practices that move the needle: consistent sleep, a gratitude practice, and regular moments of pause
• Breathwork, somatic therapy, and EMDR can all help when talk therapy isn't enough
• The question 'What do I want?' eventually becomes available – and it's worth having a list ready when it does

Resources Mentioned

• Lifeline: 13 11 14 — lifeline.org.au
• 1800RESPECT: 1800 737 732 — 1800respect.org.au
• Relationships Australia: 1300 364 277 — relationships.org.au
• Martin Seligman's gratitude research — positivepsychology.com

About Danielle Colley

Danielle Colley is an integrative life coach and author who works with women navigating major life transitions. She brings both professional training and personal lived experience to her work. You can find her at https://daniellecolley.com.au/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Nearly 10 years ago, when I was going through my divorce, there were a handful of people who really got me through, and Danielle Colley was one of them. She's one of my closest friends, and during that time she would call me and call me and call me again until I picked up, even though I really didn't want to talk on the phone. She refused to take no for an answer. She had honest conversations with me when I needed them, and she made me laugh like a drain, sometimes an inappropriate amount given what we were dealing with. Apart from being my friend, Danielle is an author, speaker, incredible life coach, and host of the podcast Big Stuff. She helps people figure out happiness, contentment, and what the hell they're doing with their lives. In this episode, we get into what's actually happening in your nervous system when separation hits, why you can't sleep even when you're absolutely exhausted, and what actually helps. It's a really good one. I know you'll love it. I'm Carolyn Tate, founder of Women's Divorce Academy, and your guide to turning your divorce into the best thing that ever happened to you. This is Divorce with Carolyn. All right, before we start, I've got lots of questions for you. Before we start, I think it's important to mention, just for perspective, that this isn't theory for you. This is lived experience as well as theory. You're obviously highly qualified to talk about this, but also you have your own lived experience of divorce, which I think will probably get you back on to talk about another time. Um but when we first met, I think you were um, I think the first time we met, you said you were you thought you might get divorced. And so the early years of our friendship were forged around a time that your life was pretty well on fire.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

I actually remember us the first time that we had connected in human, because it was in the blogging days, and we had spoken only online. And the first time we met in Human, I remember being a little bit boozy and saying to you, I think my marriage is in really big trouble. And you were, I think, one of the very first people that I had uttered that to. And and aren't you glad?

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Because look at us now. Well, I also remember, I think I was a bit boozy too. And I remember saying to you, Oh, my marriage is going really well. I'm really happy. And then about two years later, not so much.

unknown 2:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

So we've definitely seen each other through some stuff. We have seen each other through some stuff. But apart from all of that, of course, you are incredibly qualified to talk about this. And what I want to touch on first, because this whole fight or flight thing that we get into, in that early separation phase, a lot of women feel like really wired, really anxious, um, unable to settle. What's actually happening to your nervous system when that's going on? And why does going through this stuff trigger such a strong physiological response?

SPEAKER_02 2:56

If you look at how we're wired biologically, our nervous system, we've got the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system. So our sympathetic nervous system is the fight or flight part of us, which is not a bad thing, right? Sometimes it gets a really bad rapper, you know, like we've the uh when it gives us anxiety or when it comes online unnecessarily or comes online and doesn't go offline, that's when it's you know problematic. But ultimately, our sympathetic nervous system, it helps us to get up out of bed in the morning, things like that. When we're in a state of flux, we perceive that as danger. Now, when a marriage is ending, it doesn't even have to be because it is a dangerous situation. It feels like danger because we are heading into unknown territory. Humans don't like the unknown. So we go from having this, you know, fairly comfortable or uncomfortable, uncomfortably comfortable, right? We we have a status quo that we are familiar with and something shakes that. So whether we are choosing to leave or they are choosing to leave, all of a sudden there is so much unknown ahead of us that triggers our nervous system to freak out ultimately. And what happens is it kind of compounds when we then start having tricky conversations and we start having to look at separating assets or you know, it's sort of it feels like there is just so much going on. There is soup in the brain, there are all of these different things to think about. Are the kids gonna be okay? What how am I gonna work? How am I gonna survive? What are we gonna like all of that just becomes this really, really loud noise in your head? And basically your nervous system just says, We are not safe. We are not safe. Everything just we we must sh shut down anything that is unneeded right now and just go into survival mode.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Yeah, and I think I think it's important to note, yeah, all of those things are big things, right? They're not small issues. And so it's as you say, it's understandable that your body is having a moment. And also important to mention the fight or flight thing. I know we we sort of shorten it to fight or flight, but of course there's freeze and fawn as well, which are common responses. So if you if you're not in either fight or flight, you know, you might be that I know I was a big freezer. I would just take no action and just be like, I don't know what to do. And my daughter is a fauner, so as if um if things go wrong for her, she just bursts into tears, and that's um that's her way of fawning, um, which gets people to care for her. Like there's all these different ways that people can respond, but it's all the same kind of stimulus, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Yeah, absolutely. It comes down to basic human survival. Yeah. Yeah. And and as you say, all of those things are big things, most definitely. But what we're looking at when we're in this sort of like uh heightened state of you know, your nervous system in this fight, fight, freeze, or fawn is an excess of cortisol and adrenaline. So basically it it's like life-threatening danger. This is the stuff that makes you run away from tigers. Okay. So even though separating your assets can feel challenging, it's not really the same as being chased by a tiger, but your body doesn't see it differently. So that's why sometimes you know, we have these responses that aren't always aligned with what's actually happening, right? And it's like we also might fall into some of the habits to take the edges off or to ease this feeling, particularly if you are, you know, coming out of a long-term relationship. There might be all sorts of things. You might like hit the bottle, you might, you know, go out and hit Tinder, you might eat your feelings. There's all sorts of different behaviors. You might run too much too far, right? I know someone who did that. Um there are all of these different things that we do when the feelings get too big. And those things can sometimes then compound the cortisol and adrenaline as well. So it just becomes this kind of vicious cycle if we're not taking care of ourselves as best as we can, understanding it's not a perfect science, and you are going through one of possibly the most stressful things you are ever going to experience in your life.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Yeah, yeah. And the stakes are high. And if you're listening and you don't know, the reason that Danielle referred to running is because I did a lot of marathons during my divorce.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

She ran until her toenails fell off. I mean, come on.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

I did. But then I would come home and drink a bottle of rose. So I really hit it from both sides. It's about balance, right? And I'm not doing much of either. So but um but that leads into my next question, which is about sleep. And I know a lot of women we talk to, they're so exhausted. And yet when they try to go to sleep, like all day, you're like falling asleep, and then you go to bed at night and you are wired. Um, your brain won't switch off, it's quiet. Suddenly you're thinking about all of these things. What's going on there? And what can genuinely help you in that moment if it's two o'clock in the morning and you're lying awake staring at the ceiling, worrying about who's going to get the cutlery? What do you do?

SPEAKER_02 8:36

In my case, it was the norotake plate set. Uh we I really wanted that as a wedding gift, and his family gave it to us, and he got the norotake plate set. Anyway, I what is going on there? So during the day, we can busy ourselves with all of the life doings that can be quite distracting at night. It's simply because there is nothing else for the brain to do than stress. Um, all of the all of the hormones that you've been running on for the day, the adrenaline and cortisol, they don't know that it's nighttime. You probably haven't triggered off your circadian rhythm, your melatonin. So your sleep cycle gets really disrupted from thinking, basically. Your brain becomes your biggest enemy at night times. Which sucks because it's really hard to scoop it out and till the morning. Yeah, it really does. And I can I can remember myself, you know, having night upon night upon night of lying there and really worrying about survival. You know, how am I gonna make this work? Well, how am I gonna make the finances work? Are my kids gonna be okay? All of that sort of stuff, which, you know, in the in the deep, dark depths of a of a night, all seems really, really unmanageable. Everything is so much scarier in the dark. Yeah. I think there are some very simple things that you can do. Because as we said earlier, all of these things are big things. The only way really is through you you can't bypass how difficult a separation or a divorce is. You know, even even an amicable one has difficult sticking points that may keep you up at night. So it doesn't necessarily even have to be a particularly messy one, but also you really don't know someone until you divorce them. And I think that a lot of um a lot of mess that you didn't anticipate can can come. Yep, for sure. Writing stuff down before bed really does help. I I have a concept that I use in my work with my one-on-one clients called brain soup. I use it a lot with people working in leadership, but it really works with anyone who is thinking, overthinking or thinking too much. And I liken it to a pot of soup. So when you're making, say, a minestrone or whatever, you put in all your vegetables and then you put in some beans and you put in some uh tomato, you know, uh passata or whatever, right? Some stock. Okay. All of the parts of that are, you know, fairly separate and they look good. But then if you were to make in the same pot, like a Thai chicken soup, and then you're throwing in like ingredients that don't necessarily match, suddenly it becomes really like murky. It's very hard to distinguish between the two different flavors. And then you throw in a pea and ham. Okay, so what we're looking at here is this big mushy pot of blah. And that's what's happening in your brain. Okay. So I find separating out the ingredients of the soup can be really, really helpful. And it is as simple as brain dump. Like, what are all of the things that are in my head right now? And not even necessarily separating them into piles of what you're in control of and what you're not in control of, or how you can solve or fix any of these things. It is just about when they're on paper, they're not sort of swirling around and like smooshing around each other. They are there cold, hard, black and white, and you can see them. Yeah, they're separated out. And that simple exercise of writing it out can alleviate some of the stress because it just doesn't, it just feels a bit more concrete than the um the floatiness of everything in your head. Because it just spins around and around and around at night. You're thinking like fragments of thoughts, not even whole thoughts half the time. This leads to this, leads to this, particularly if you throw in some, you know, spicy brain, some ADHD, and your medication's worn off, for instance. Um, you know, there's just so much thinking that can be alleviated by getting stuff out of your brain.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

That was my experience too. And I've for my whole life, because I, you know, um have suffered from anxiety and still do. Um, and sometimes I manage it well and sometimes I don't. And every time I've sought help for it, everyone tells me to journal. And, you know, I'm a writer, I'm a journalist by background, and I just the guy the idea of writing makes me so mad. And I've realized that the reason it made me so mad was because it's forced, it wasn't because I don't like to write, because obviously I do, but I I would go, I I write all day, every day. I don't want to do it in my off time, but that wasn't it at all. It was my brain trying to protect me and go, I don't want to sit with my thoughts. I don't want to actually look at them. And that was so confronting to me. But you'll never guess what. I started doing it and it actually really helped.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Oh, amazing. I know. Like all of those people on these years. Um still makes me furious though. Absolutely. And you know, it's a it's a very different kind of writing to writing for, you know, writing a fiction, writing an article. It's a very, very different kind of writing because it is writing without a purpose or an end destination in mind.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Yeah. And it's also writing about myself. I don't and and and and a at a close range. I've written about myself from a distance before, factual things that you share with the public, but not like my inner brain workings. But also the other thing that was keeping me awake at night was it was trying to remember all it helped me to write them down because I was always like, Oh, I have to remember to take care of this. And what are the kids going to do the day that he can't take them and I can't take them and I'm working and you know, just all of those things. Oh, I forgot to add the and irons to our list of shared property or whatever it is. Um, so it just helped to get it out of my head. And as you say, because it was just spinning around and around and around. So that was really, yeah, hugely helpful.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Yeah, and and journaling doesn't have to be, you know, a stream of consciousness. You know, not everybody's into journaling. This this soup practice really is as simple as a list.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

I think that that list can work for all sorts of things. What am I feeling right now? When the feelings get overwhelming, and they will. Um sometimes there are so many feelings attached to the process of separating and divorce that they they threaten to swallow you whole. And you're like, ah, I'm so angry and I'm so sad, and I'm so like, I'm I'm feeling guilty and I'm like all of this. I'm just being able to write, okay, what's the soup? What are all the things that I'm feeling right now? And and just compassionately observing rather than judging or trying to like stem the flow.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Yeah. Yeah. Even naming your feelings. I think I wasn't even able to name my feelings until I started writing them down. That took that was a process as well. But yeah. Um, but can we talk about children? Because obviously when you can we not I've got teens.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

I'm in the teen, I'm in the teen trenches.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Yeah, we talk about parenting enough, really. But let's when it comes to let's talk about children. Come on, let's come when you when you because we've talked about, you know, all of this stuff that you're feeling and you're in this fight or flight, and you know, you're dysregulated. So you're trying to regulate yourself while also showing up for your kids and keeping it calm and going, Mom and mum and you know, dad or mum don't love each other anymore or like or love each other so much, but we're gonna live separately, whatever you're telling them. And you're trying to, you know, really sell that story. So you're trying to be calm. How do you maintain that sense of calm with your kids in a way that, you know, it's not disingenuous and it's not shoving yourself into a box that just is gonna spew out later, um, like a really sick kind of, you know, child's toy. Sorry, that was visceral, wasn't it? Um what are some practical tools I guess you can use as a question to to care for your kids while also caring for yourself and not faking it necessarily?

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Sure, sure. Look, I think that it's a really archaic narrative that we need to protect our children from everything that we're feeling, and we can't show them that we're sad or we're crying, or we, you know, we need to hide our emotions and pretend that we're everything is fine. Uh and I know that not everybody agrees with me on that. However, I feel like it is far more realistic to allow yourself the grace of doing your best. And your best is gonna be different on every single day. And approaching parenting at this very difficult time with a whole load of compassion for yourself because it is difficult and it is relentless, and you gotta show up no matter what else is going on. So I think when you're really, really in the thick of stuff, allow yourself to let some stuff slide. You know, I have just had some advice from a friend. My my mom just died, as you know, Carolyn, my mum just died, and I went for a coffee with someone, and you know, I mean the teenage trenches, it's been the summer holidays, I've been grieving, and my friend was like, you know what? Like, just don't worry about the housework, about the washing, about if you eat takeaway or cereal a number of nights in a row. Just really allow yourself to I'm gonna say soften your standards. You don't have to let everything slide, but just soften your standards until you're feeling a little bit more sure-footed. Give yourself the grace. And your kids are gonna have questions. I mean, they might not, they might be completely oblivious, but they're gonna have questions. And I think answering them as honestly as you can in an age-appropriate way is really the best way to approach this because kids aren't stupid, they're actually really, really switched on. And allowing them into your sort of in internal world while you go through that is very helpful for the healing of everyone. Now, that comes with a caveat because that doesn't mean you tell them the internal workings of what's going on in the separation, in the financial agreements, how the other person is behaving. That stuff that stays between the adults. You know, there's no need to poison the well of your ex because it's not fair. It's not fair. But I just I really think that compassion is the best way to compassion with yourself and understanding that you are going through a massive flux and change in the status quo, and it's okay if you don't fully represent as a hundred percent steady all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Oh hi, I'm interrupting this podcast to ask you a quick favour. If this episode resonates with you, if you find something useful about it, uh would you mind sharing it with a friend who might need it right now? Sometimes the right conversation finds us at exactly the right moment, and it can really help. You can also follow divorce with Caroline wherever you listen, and if you have two spare minutes, a review would mean the world. It helps other women find this show when they need it most. Thank you. That's gonna work the episode. Yeah, I think that's good advice, and I know we have a mutual friend who really tried hard not to show her kids any sadness, and she didn't cry in front of them. And it was probably a couple of years later that one of her kids said to her, Well, you you were so happy when you and Dad broke up, like you were never sad. And she realized that they had no idea how she felt, and she was devastated. So it's really interesting, and I think I think in my experience, uh my relationship with my kids is closer because I brought them along for the ride. Again, in an age-appropriate way, and I don't speak badly about their dad. But I told them how I was feeling and and they were in that tent with me. And I think, yeah, we have a closer relationship because of it. And a lot of women we I talk to experience that as well. But now let's talk about, let's skip down the road a little bit. What if this has been going on for a while? And I know burnout can become a thing if this is if it hasn't settled. Um, you know, maybe you feel still feeling hypervigilant or maybe you're feeling really flat and just like dumb. Is that a really common thing? And how do you know like when you might need deeper support outside help?

SPEAKER_02 21:55

It can be, particularly if you go to court. Um that can really drag on and on and on. On, you know, for a really long time, particularly if you know someone doesn't show and it gets reset. And, you know, there's all of these different things, and and there's also the financial strain of that. So if you are having to go down uh either a mediation or a legal path that can really drag things out and can feel like it is never gonna end, and that you are, you know, inextricably tied to the shit show for you know, for as long and and it feels like they have all of the control because they won't just back down, which you know, potentially they're also feeling about you.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Yeah, and I know I I think as well that an ex that's perhaps using the children as leverage or you know, working the children and that can become quite stressful as well. Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

So when you're in that protracted state, it's really important to remember that it really won't last forever. It feels like there is no light at the end of the tunnel when you're in it. But doing the things that really support you as a person, knowing that you also have this really big difficult challenge in your life that is ongoing. And that is seeking connection, hanging out with um, with trusted, loved people, sharing what is going on for you and allowing people to witness support, love you through that, uh keeping a track of your mental health and understanding that you know, when you are in these things that feel like they're never ending, it is very easy to slip into anxiety or depression because it just feels like you have no control. And if you find yourself in a state where for more than a few weeks you are really not feeling yourself, and that can be uh disengaging from people or things that you love to do, finding it difficult to get out of bed, finding yourself uh very heightened emotionally, crying a lot, or even feeling really numb. If you find yourself going into some of these places, it's time to go and and seek some help. There are lots of things that can be done even though you are still in the situation. And the I would say the first place to start would be your GP, or if that feels too far, just reach out to somebody and say that you know you feel like it's you're really not coping. I think that there is this narrative that we all need to project uh an aura of like strength, and I've got it together, and I can I can take care of my own shit. Yeah, you know? Yeah, I definitely suffered from that one. Yeah, and it feels it feels very hard to let somebody, anybody know that you're not okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

It's a tough time in your life to be vulnerable because the person who's who's supposed to love you most in the world now, like, you know, is not necessarily being kind to you. Um, and then you're spinning yourself up, opening up your soft bits to other people can be really hard.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Absolutely, absolutely. And I don't I mean, there isn't a there really isn't a great antidote to that other than be brave enough to ask for help or to let somebody know how you're feeling for yourself, for your children, and for your future. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

And if you I guess if you don't have anyone that you trust as well, talk to your GP, talk to Yeah, talk to your GP, get a mental health plan.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Yeah, if that feels uh if that feels too difficult, you can't get into your GP, you know, immediately and that you're feeling like it's quite immediate. There are also services called Lifeline, there are Relationships Australia, there's a number of different 800 respect is another one that's great.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

Yeah. There are a number of different helplines that you can call if it just feels like it's all too much. And sometimes it is as simple as just sharing the load, like talking about it out loud and and I guess admitting how frightened you are. And ultimately that's what it is. It just feels like it's never gonna end. And that's really frightening. That's really frightening.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Yeah, and I think as well, it's important to mention I was I was very much that person you're describing that just wanted to look like I had it all together. And getting divorced can feel like a full-time job at times, especially when you've got all the admin and everything as well. It's overwhelming, and yet you have to keep up with everything else. And I one of the things, because I work from home, I would hide away for days at a time and not see people. And I realized that that, you know, and there's so many studies now about that incidental contact that you get at the post office or at the shops or whatever, you know, just having that, oh hi, how are you? How's your day going? And even if you go great, thanks, even though it's not. I think it's just those incidental interactions are so important and we underestimate the difference they can make in our day. So even just trying to get out and do those things as well, going to a class at the gym or going meeting a friend for a walk, you know, not everything has to be a big, heavy discussion. It can also be just that lighthearted. I know when I was going through it, I would try to make sure I had a laugh every day. And for me, that was, you know, watching 30 rock or calling you because you always make me laugh. Um, but just finding those moments and doesn't have to be huge, but just finding those little moments as well. And sometimes you have to force it, but it's still working. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Yeah. I think that a gratitude practice, as twee as that sounds, is very beneficial for a number of reasons. So I I really love that incidental contact. Also finding little glimmers, you know, whether it is like something that is humorous, someone that is a connection, something that is lovely to see or do or whatever, just having these little moments and a gratitude practice is very useful when you are. I mean, it's great all the time. For this reason, let me tell you why. When you are in it, when you're in like the thick of the swamp, it can be really, really easy to only be able to see the swamp. Absolutely. When you begin a gratitude practice and using the sort of um elongated method that that uh what is the big daddy of positive psychology? Martin Seligman. So Martin Seligman had a method which is I am grateful for because it makes me feel. So you're going a little bit deeper, you're actually sparking the hormones of joy, pleasure, uh, love, whatever. Uh so we're looking at, you know, serotonin, oxytocin, dopamine, being able to um spark those. I am grateful for big and small things because it makes me feel, and you think about this thing, and you allow yourself to feel that or imagine that. What actually happens is you begin to train your brain to see more positive things. As I said a moment ago, it can be very easy to start to only see the swamp. It is all swamp, it's only ever going to be swamp. My life is a swamp, right? But if we're able to say, okay, there's actually flowers here, there's actually sunshine here, there's actually lovely parts here. Yeah, okay, there is some tough stuff. There is, it is a bit swampy over there, but we are okay here, and there is beautiful stuff going on.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

I think that's that's really key to something that can be really difficult, which is taking responsibility for what you can control. And obviously, there's stuff that we have to let go of that we can't control. I know in this phase of life often we try to control everything, but something that we that does feel out of control for a lot of women that I talk to is their state of mind and how they feel and the stuff that's going on. And so I think just just taking control of that little thing can feel so empowering. And when when I was going through my my the first year of separation, we separated on the 2nd of January, which is classic. Everyone separates in January, such a cliche. But I resolved then to meditate every day that year. And I wasn't a massive meditator then, but I've pretty much meditated consistently ever since. And at the start, I remember I was started, I started seeing a therapist as well. And I was t telling her about what I was doing, and she like everything I was doing at that time, I was running marathons, I was meditating, and she said, Everything is like you're just trying, it's an achievement. It's like you're just trying to tick it off your list of things to do. Like, right, I've meditated today. Let's what's next? And she said, You just need to go and sit in it. It's great to do it, but do it like do it less often and do it with your heart, not as a with your brain, you know. And that was really helpful as well. And I think what I like about that time now is that I did it imperfectly, but I started the habit. The journaling came later, the gratitude came later. Um, because the gratitude made me furious as well at first. And now I have a journal next to my bed and I write at least five things each night, which I'm that I'm grateful for. And I love that because it makes me feel I'm gonna start doing that. I have I don't do that at the moment, but it definitely has shifted my focus to there's a lot of good stuff in my life. And and and I was doing a meditation this morning actually, which was really lovely too. And it was a it was a gratitude meditation, and it took you through three kind types of gratitude for things in your life. And the first thing was just something little that you're that you're grateful for. And mine was like my new teacup, which I'm holding on screen. And if you're listening, it's this very bright, cute teacup with strawberries on it, and it's you know, it just brings a smile to my face. And it pleases me when I have my morning cup of green tea. And it can be as little as that, right? It can be a cup, it can be a view from your window, it can be anything, you know.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

It doesn't have to be it, a good pillow, it can be all running water, you know, a warm shower.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Yeah, and I think it's important to have both because it just reminds you that there are so many things, and it doesn't mean that everything's okay. It doesn't mean you have to let go of the negative stuff, but it does so I'm just hearing whatever that is in the background.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

That is my dog deciding it's time to come in and he's like like hitting the door.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Anyway, I think it's important to remind yourself that even when there's big, tough shit going on, there's also just lovely little moments. And those, as you say, the glimmers. I love the glimmers. I think that's really great. Now, I wanted to ask you if there's any types of therapy or body-based approaches that tend to help women in this stage when talking therapy isn't shifting things. Are there things you can do like EMDR, you know, trauma and for uh trauma-informed approaches that they can pursue?

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Yeah, absolutely. So talk therapy is great and uh and and it is often accessible to people more than other other forms of therapy, or it is something that people people sometimes feel more comfortable or confident in because it has been around. It is, you know, it's a regulated thing. So if that's if that's where you're at, I highly recommend that you do that. It is accessible to you, you know, there are definitely things like finding a coach who does more integrative stuff. So you can be looking at other forms of therapy, such as, you know, as you said, EMDR, timeline therapy, can be looking at parts, um, internal family systems. Basically, what you would be doing because you are still in it, okay, there is the kind of therapy that helps you talk it through and or helps you think it through and helps you to put out spot fires of how you're thinking and feeling and like take a load of. Then there is the deeper stuff. And this is really interesting because when we go through the really big life moments, whether it is a separation, it can be uh death, it can be, there can be loss of a job, when we go through these sort of big, momentous things in our life, it can bring up some of our deeper and more primal wounds that like I am always abandoned, or I am not worthy, or I am unlovable, or those kinds of things. So if you feel ready or when you feel ready after a big momentous thing, it can be good to look at some of those more primal, primal woundings, because that will help to inform how you move forward. Because as we know, we have a tendency to repeat stuff until we sort it out. And uh, and you know, and and you know, marrying your dad again, you know, or or you know, whatever, whatever the pattern is, you know, finding someone who is emotionally unavailable, finding someone else who is going to, you know, treat you like a doormat, finding someone else who is going to, whatever. You don't want to keep dragging around the habits and the patterns that have been set earlier and then potentially reinforced during this relationship. So you can also find things like, and I I I find some really good sort of entry-level stuff might be some of the sort of somatic therapies or sound healing or body work, which is more sort of on the in the energetic um scale. Not everybody believes that energy healing or sound healing is a thing. So if you don't, then you're not going to get anything out of it, right? But it can be as simple as going somewhere to relax for an hour where your phone isn't ringing, nobody wants something from you, and it's all just about you and recalibrating your nervous system. Yeah. So not everything needs to be about doing this deep work and exercising your demons. It can just be simply about going somewhere to chill and have just a bit of space and peace. That might be as as good as you can do for a little bit of time. While you're in it, it might just be about sort of snatching those moments as much as you can rather than doing the really big heavy lifting.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Yeah, I like that. I think you know, it really takes the pressure off too. It doesn't have to fix everything, but what if it just makes you feel lovely for an hour and maybe a few hours afterwards? Great, right? I mean, it's worth the price of entry for me. I love sound healing, but I know, yeah. I I I I do have friends that don't love it. For love breath work, I think breath work is a really fantastic way.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

I find breath work a little bit stronger than sound healing. Sound healing can be lovely and relaxing and recalibrates your nervous system. Breath work, on the other hand, depending on what kind of breath work you do, but conscious connected breath work, therapeutic kind of breath work has the capacity to help you to really move through some stuck stress and help to release and relieve some of that sort of stuck big T and little T trauma without you having to really go into the stories of you know how things were formed or whatever. It just helps you to again let some stuff out of your nervous system so that you can just sort of come back to a place of equilibrium. Ultimately, that's going to be, I think, the biggest goal when you are in an ongoing moment of flux, challenge, imbalance. Like when the ground is feeling wobbly, do as much as you can to help yourself feel more stable.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Yeah, agreed. And I think it's that old Buddhist thing of, you know, if you get shot with an arrow, don't shoot yourself with a second arrow, right? Like, so you know, just because somebody else is being terrible doesn't mean you have to suffer more than you have to, right? So yeah, do what you can to ease that suffering. I mean, we all, it's not a failing on anyone's part. We all cause ourselves to suffer. We all sit in anger or you know, whatever it is, or victimhood, or whatever it is. Resentment. Absolutely. Yeah, resentment's one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

I think also our brain is often our biggest enemy. You know, the things that we think are so vicious and vile, and often we have thought them so many times, or things we've thought things about ourselves or or name called or or put ourselves down that many times that we don't even hear it anymore. So I think that really allowing yourself time and space to come back to your heart. You know, what does my heart need? What does my heart think about this? What does my heart want right now? Helps help because the brain is a trixy mofo. It is. Yeah, the brain is a trixy mofo.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

What our very good friend Brene Brown says about um about, you know, is this a story I'm telling? Is this true or is this a story I'm telling myself? And we're so good at storytelling. As humans, we love stories. And we will make up stories around something that happens to us. But we do it a thousand times a day.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

And making machines, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

Yeah, and which is why bouncing it off other people and talking to other people can help just to sort of dispel that because it makes us question is that actually what's going on or is this a story I'm telling myself? Because most of the time, especially at this time, the stories we're telling ourselves aren't particularly kind to us.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

And these are not helpful. Yeah. They're not helpful, you know. And and I think being able to step back and ask yourself, is this true? Is this helpful? Can be can be a real just a simple circuit breaker. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

And what would I tell a friend if she told me that story too? Yeah. Without a fat.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

Yeah. Because we are so much meaner to ourselves than we would be to a friend ever.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Yeah. Um, okay, now I know in the work that you do, you work a lot with women navigating major transitions in their lives, and there's not much more major than this. What when they're ready, so not in that early stage, but when they're ready, what do you find consistently helps them move from that survival mode onto that steadier ground?

SPEAKER_02 40:21

It's not one big thing. Well, that's a bummer. Yeah, I wish it was. I wish I could say, do this and your life will be infinitely better. It's actually a series of small things done regularly. Beginning with self-reflection, beginning with asking yourself some good questions. You know, who do I want to be in this moment? How do I want to show up? What is my end game? What do I want out of this? How do I want this to go? Asking yourself some of the bigger questions before responding. Also, like taking, taking a moment, taking a moment of pause, particularly when emotions are heightened, taking a moment of pause so that you can respond rather than react. But it is, like I said, it's a series of small things done regularly that move the needle rather than like just one really big thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Yeah. So showing up for yourself every day and doing the just doing the things that you know you need to do.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Sure. Consistency, absolutely. Consistency on being a reliable friend. That that's as small as what information are you feeding yourself? How are you processing the stuff in your life? Are you are you in a drama loop? Are you retelling the story and oh my god, you'll never believe what he did? Are you doing that a hundred times a day and telling everyone? Because you keep yourself stuck in this drama loop, rather than you know, working through your feelings and then deciding how you want to proceed. If there were three things that you could do daily that move the needle significantly from survival to thriving, I mean we we gotta go right back to basics and it's things like having a really solid sleep routine, not sitting up at night, binging TV, giving yourself adequate rest because everything is so much better when you are adequately rested. Gratitude is definitely a needle mover. And as boring as it is, I really think gratitude is life-changing when you do it consistently. And the research really does show that it has a compounding effect over three months and six months.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

And and I think it might be boring, but it's also the joy of it is it's really easy to do. So easy.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

It takes under five minutes, possibly two minutes, and it's free. You don't have to go and get a mental health plan from your GP. The research does show that it can alleviate anxiety and depression significantly when you do it consistently only for three weeks. Right? I mean, that's huge. That's amazing, isn't it? Uh I also think questioning your thoughts and having those moments of reflection. Sometimes we get really, really stuck in this like busyness of like I have to, I have to just keep moving. I have to just keep moving forward. And just giving yourself a couple of moments of pause just to bring your nervous system back online. Everything is so much easier when you're not like frantic and panicked. If you think about your nervous system as a window and you want to stay sort of within that window. window. And when we're going through these big life moments, it can be really easy to come like out the top with anxiety, with overwhelm, with overthinking, all of that stuff, or sink down into the bottom where we're looking at depression, sluggishness, not wanting to do anything disengaged. And either of these places are really easy to get to if you're not doing the work to stay here. Yeah. And it does take self-awareness and pause. Yeah. Which can feel impossible. But no one is gonna do it for you. No one is coming to save you. And this is a one of those catalyzing experiences in life which forges a new you, a new reality and a new chapter which when you're in it can feel absolutely terrifying. But you know I I've seen it a gazillion times where everything works out. Yes. Everything is better on the other side and you are stronger, more resilient and have greater internal resources afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

The only way is through oh yeah we said that a lot didn't we?

unknown 45:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

And also I think it's important sure no one's coming to save you but the good news is you have it within you to save yourself.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

And that feels amazing.

SPEAKER_02 45:37

It does. It feels it can feel really daunting though. And and you know I I'm not when I say that no one is coming to save you I don't want that to sound like you know like I I just imagined like a hand underwater going, oh like I'm going down again. You don't want someone to step in and save you. Because it is it is through these catalyzing moments that we really grow and learn as humans and you do have it within yourself and you've had it a hundred percent of the time so far. Right? You've been through tough stuff you've done tough things. I recently got a message from a client of mine who began working with me when she was a number of months possibly years into a very very messy separation it had been a very controlling relationship. They were deep in the court system he was winning financially and trying to take what she had her business and she felt so powerless. And through just a few months of working together giving her the internal resource systems to be able to support herself she went into the courtroom feeling so much calmer than she thought she would have and the result she felt was very fair. Okay. She didn't smash him he didn't smash her it was fair and she sent me a message a little bit later just saying I can't believe who I was walking into that courtroom I had I had myself I felt like I was composed and I was holding myself rather than somebody else holding me I was my safety net and the result being as it was she was able to see with perspective that we didn't need to nobody needed to beat anybody nobody we just needed to be able to walk away feeling seen heard supported and okay like we've got this we're gonna get through this we're going to be able to move forward now and I know that not everybody is going to walk away from court or their separation or whatever feeling that that is a that is a great outcome but there does come a time where you need to be able to put whatever it is behind you and not need to win.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Yeah. And we talk a lot in Women's Divorce Academy about not whether things are fair but can I live with it. Yeah. Because I think women going through divorce and toddlers are similar in that we we start to focus on what's fair and there's nothing saying it it's going to be fair. I mean you know the courts do their best but it's so complicated and what you think is fair is probably not what your ex thinks is fair and you know it's it's so complex. I think just can I live with this that's enough and then just walk away and start your life.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

Yeah. And the sooner that happens the sooner your next chapter begins right because you you can cut the emotional ties that are holding you to that old relationship. And I mean I mean children are going to hold you to that old relationship anyway as you and I both know here I am 12 years later still you know um and and and the relationship with my ex over that 12 years has been a roller coaster. We've had years that were great and we've spent Christmas all together as a family and we've had years that were terrible and we've had um enormous fractures and arguments that we you know we've struggled to come back from and and you know you would think that it would get better over time simply because that like time it heals everything but it's not like you've got this ongoing relationship. So it's about being able to have enough self-preservation to know when to just walk away from something or when you need to fight.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

Yeah stay in your lane focus on yourself um and and what yeah as I liked what you said before about you know who do I want to be you know so moving forward out of this phase of my life and this is something we talk a lot about in the membership too is what do I want next?

SPEAKER_02 49:59

And a lot of women haven't thought about that because their whole life they've their whole adult life you know they've been working as a couple and compromising and what do we want um and now suddenly they have this and it can be overwhelming right this like what am I going to do next like there's so many options but it's also really it can be beautiful and invigorating but you just need to get there first your nervous system needs to catch up with Remember when I said to you uh you were you were facing weekends every second weekend without your children and I was like well what do you want to do? What do you like to do? And you're like I don't know yeah I don't even know I don't know yeah that's why she was running so much. Yeah yeah yeah fair fair um so there's like creating that list of things things that that you want to do things that you're interested in things to bring you a bit of pleasure and fun and joy because we do often forget how to do that when we have been embroiled in a relationship and that in a family dynamic or you know 100% of the time.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Yeah and that bit of advice changed my life and I it's something I do talk about often because I had forgotten how to have fun. I was so busy trying to make things work and so busy getting by on what I had and so busy making the best of things that when my kids weren't there, I just did not know how to have fun. And you gave me the best bit of advice and so what I did was I write you know a list of things that I always wanted to do but never had the time to do. Suddenly I had the time. So it was easier to think of it that way and I made a list and I put them in a jar and I would draw them out and then I'd go oh not that one this weekend and pick out another one look for the one I actually wanted. It's a little adventurous yeah yeah I'm not a spontaneous person but um but it was yeah that changed my life and I and I'm forever grateful for that because it just helped me to so much of it is about reframing and it reframed it to you know not how do I get through this but what do I what would I like to do? Like what an amazing gift. So um it is all about reframing a lot of the time. But anyway I know we've I've talked your ear off and um asked you lots of questions. I really appreciate you joining us today Danielle Colley thank you. Thank you for having me it's lovely to be here if doing this alone feels heavy Women's Divorce Academy offers clear guidance practical tools and a supportive community for the legal financial and emotional realities of divorce whether you're considering separation in the middle of it or rebuilding afterwards there's something here for you on women's divorceacademy.com