Follow the money: What a forensic accountant wants every divorcing woman to know

Ever stared at a pile of financial documents and felt completely out of your depth? Me too – but Julie Garis is here to help. Julie is a forensic accountant who specialises in helping women navigate the financial side of separation and property settlement. Julie has been through divorce herself – and she brings both professional expertise and lived experience to everything she does.

We cover what she actually does (and how it's different from what your lawyer does), the financial red flags to watch for, what to do if you suspect your ex isn't disclosing everything, and why 'fair' might not be the right thing to aim for – and what question to ask instead.

Key takeaways

• The earlier you get organised, the better. Arriving at your lawyer's office prepared (with a relationship timeline, asset list, and key financial documents) can save you significant legal fees.
• Business structures, crypto, undisclosed accounts and gambling are among the most common financial issues she encounters - and she shares what to do in those circumstances.
• 'Fair' is rarely how property settlement feels for either party. The better question is: can I live with this outcome?
• Financial clarity after settlement can be life-changing – many women discover their own competence with money for the first time.

Resources mentioned

• Julies' free First Steps: Financial Settlement Preparation checklist – https://www.simplesplitfinancials.com.au/checklist
• Naomi Holmes – women's financial literacy – listen to our podcast with Naomi in episode 1
• Women's Divorce Academy membership – womensdivorceacademy.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

When I first met Julie Garris last year, I was blown away that her service even exists. Julie is the founder of Simple Split Financials. She has a background in forensic accounting and financial consulting, and she takes care of all of the financial admin of separation and divorce, like collating documents, organising financial records, and when it's necessary, also following a paper trail to figure out where the money is hidden. When I was going through my divorce, I was drowning in spreadsheets, and I am not a numbers person at all. So finding out that this service exists, I just knew I had to get Julie on the podcast. We do digress a few times in this episode, and I left it all in because Julie has her own divorce story too, and she's acquired some great wisdom on parenting grown children through it, as well as recently spending a month in Italy on her own, which I find incredibly inspiring. We talk about the agency you have after divorce to create whatever future you want, and honestly, that part gave me a lot of hope as well. So I hope you enjoy all of the chat. Let's get started. I'm Carolyn Tate, founder of Women's Divorce Academy, and your guide to turning your divorce into the best thing that ever happened to you. This is Divorce with Carolyn. Julie, thanks for joining us. Now, first let's start off with what it is exactly that you do, and and can you paint a picture of the sort of woman that normally comes to you to use your services?

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Yeah, thanks for having me, Caroline. It's really exciting to be on the podcast. I my clients are you and me. I think that's the stereotypical woman, I'm not guessing your age, but uh 45 and over. I'm certainly in that category. Well in that category, but thank you. Generally 45 and over, and you know, smart women just in the middle of a really difficult time. Separation, divorce is, you know, one of the the most overwhelming, confusing all of those adjectives, times, life, and it's it's just really difficult.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

So it's interesting because we did a um a survey of our members recently, and finances were the number one thing that people were stressed about, people were worried about. Of course, there's like there's high stakes going on, it's a really stressful thing to think about. A lot of really smart women too have not been involved with their finances. Um, so how does somebody come to the point where they go, I need help with the financial aspect? And and how do you help them?

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Yeah, good question. I guess my clients come to me on a whole continuum of the separation journey. So write to those that come and they say, I haven't even had a conversation with my partner, but I know I'm out of this. It might be just a timing thing. A very typical one is I'm waiting for my children to get through the HSC.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Um, for example.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

But so they've they've sort of checked out or made a decision that that's what they want to do. So it's it's working with them in the early stages of getting themselves prepared, getting their ducks in a row, right through to working with clients uh where I've been helping them prepare and do things for final trial if it ever goes that far, which is not the norm, but so anywhere along that whole separation trail from a financial perspective. Uh and that journey can take a long time.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Yes, it sure can.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Uh and is there a is it better to see you early, do you think? I think preparation. Knowledge is always power, and if you can prepare as much as you can, I mean everyone's relationship is very different. Every situation is unique to that person. It it really it depends on where they're at. And some of the things we look at are, you know, um, have they separated? Do they have a lawyer already? You know, what is their level of financial understanding of what's happened in the relationship? What is the size and complexity of their asset pool? And one of the most important things, how are they emotionally coping? Where are they at? You know, uh and and how much time and energy and do they have to put into working through this process on their own? How much hand holding do they need?

SPEAKER_01 4:09

And I, yeah, you know, speaking for myself, I the just the mere sight of a spreadsheet makes me weak at the knees. And so I'm always happy to get someone to. I think, you know, just different people are good at different things, and for me, finances are not one of them, and I definitely needed that help. So, how does what you do differ from what a family lawyer does?

SPEAKER_00 4:26

So I'm a chartered accountant, I'm a forensic accountant. My experience during my earlier working life was working in the big four accounting firms, purely doing forensic accounting work. What I do now is different in the terms of forensic work, but it's basically the same skill sets. It's you know, using the accounting skills and knowledge that I have to analyse data and put it in formats in a way that lawyers and clients can understand the complex financial issues that might be present, like whether it's tax issues or just really painting the financial landscape of that relationship. So starting really high level, what are your assets, what are your liabilities, um, and drilling down and putting that balance sheet together so that they can go and see a lawyer if they don't already have one initially and have that initial um you know, uh, relationship timeline and balance sheet to present to the lawyer to get their legal advice. So the lawyer is there to do legal advice. I stick in my lane, I'm a financial person, I'm an accountant, I know my boundaries, and I'm just there to support the client and the lawyer anywhere along that journey where they need me to tap in or out of the process.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

I think it's really helpful because I think a lot of people just assume their lawyer is going to be able to do everything. Um, and of course, lawyers charge, you know, per what is it, 15 minutes or something? Six minutes, six minutes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

So you make, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

So it's nice to be able to turn up uh with all your ducks in a row and and have it all prepared to present to them in a way that's comprehensible, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

That's right. I guess that's a part of the non-forensic type of work I do, getting them prepared and getting what they are seeing as their big issues and just documenting things in a way that I know a lawyer will require at some stage to give them that legal advice, you know, as I said, a relationship timeline so that they can go back and work out, I won't get technical, but about contributions and you all know these terms, to work out what percentage are they likely to get of the property asset pool split. I'm just interested in the financial side of things. So uh, and some of the deeper forensic work that I do is digging deeper into the issues, the numbers, and trying to work out, follow the money, being a bit of a financial detective if that's what's required, a lot of bank statement analysis, which we can do a lot more easily now with AI tools that I work with. Just as I said, any financial issue that is of concern to the lawyer or the client, you know, they might have not been in the financial part of the relationship. They might have just left that. And that's not unusual. People do that, their roles evolve in a relationship. So one might be the stay-at-home carer, the other one's working. They may or may not have transparency of finances, and that's okay until it's not okay anymore. And they need to know what has happened. I do not give legal advice. Um, that is purely for the lawyer, and I'm just there, as I said, to hold their hand and work collaboratively with the lawyer and the client in whatever way works best, depending on, as I said, those factors I mentioned before. What is their emotional capacity to invest their time and energy into this process, or do they need that really, really tight hand holding? Or are they gonna do it on themselves? I've got clients that love spreadsheets too. I'll send them spreadsheets, I'll send them spreadsheets and then get them to fill it all out. It really has to meet the person where they're at.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Which is so excellent. You know, I think that that bespoke approach is really great because everybody, everybody's situation is so different. Absolutely. Now, how did you um because we connected um I think someone connected us because we both, you know, obviously are supporting women going through divorce, and it's a really interesting field. And I think just about everybody that I have met in this field has a bit of a background, has a bit of a story. So, how did you go from forensic accounting to this you're specializing in helping women who are going through?

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Yeah, my career when I was before I was married and in my early marriage was um in forensic accounting, and then I uh got married, had children, and took some time out, career break, uh, simply because my ex-husband had a career that was, you know, ramping up and and it just worked out that was our dynamics. Quite spectacularly, the relationship blew up. I won't go into the details too much, but it was a long time coming uh in terms of I just put my head in the sand a little bit and not wanting to face the reality of what I was going through. But at that time I'm like I had no idea. I was the first person that I really knew intimately who had separated in family and friendship circles. So it was really daunting. I was completely confused, so overwhelmed. And I remember walking into a lawyer's office who had been referred sort of by a friend of a friend, and I just literally fell on the floor, I think, in a heap. I was just a mess, and I went by myself and I had no idea of anything. I was privy to most of the finances in my relationship, so that wasn't the issue. It was the emotional overlay for me and the unknown and not knowing who to talk to, you know, where to turn. So that's sort of that happened in 2014-15. I did venture and do a few things post that uh in my early separations. I became a buyer's agent, then I went to Sydney Uni, um, studied law for a little while, and then I eventually got back and went back to corporate world into accounting again. Then COVID hit, and I thought, no, this is my time. I really want I kept coming back to there has to be a a better way for people in my situation. I'd like to think I'm smart, I'm a financial person. How did I get myself in this position? And I look back and and I think, you know, had I known what I know now, I would have done things very differently. But you can only do what you know at the time. I decided to start this business, and it started off with let's let me just help women get their documents together, let's just do that. And it's evolved now to, as I said, into more the forensic side of things, but it's a holistic approach. Building a network of people around me, like this is how I met you, Karen, and uh people in property in financial advice, in the family lawyers I work with, I love they're people that I trust, they trust me, we work really well together. So it's just building that um network of people to really help women, predominantly women. I do have male clients and I do like men. It's just I think that the need is for women in this space. And I see it all the time, day in, day out. People just like you and I, who it's just confusing and overwhelming.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Yeah, and as you say, especially when it's that big life transition and the emotions are running so high, it's it's just so challenging to get through. Even as you say, when you have the knowledge that you had, it was still hard.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Absolutely, yeah. And you know, it depends on who the uh the partner is, the ex-partner as well, and and how that dynamic works. Now, admittedly, the clients that I see are acrimonious because otherwise they wouldn't necessarily need me. Uh, they would go and work it out themselves and go and see a lawyer and say, hey lawyer, we've agreed this. Can you just sign like documented and consent orders? And great, we're all happy, we're gonna move on. But, you know, in my situation it wasn't it wasn't like that. And certainly my clients are not like that. And then it's just a really it's sad, but I get a lot of joy is not the right word. I I get a lot of um, you know, my purpose is to help women in this. And I think you might must be the I assume that you're the same, which is why you're doing it and why w women like us gravitate towards doing this because we see it, we see the need, and we've got the empathy, we've got the lived experience, we've got the skills, we've got, you know, we've we've got life experience of you know, of living through not just this, but a lot of other things, to be able to bring those broader skills in to working in this space.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

I definitely got into this space because not only did I not know what I was doing when I went through my divorce and and ended up probably getting a settlement that wasn't in my favour. Um, but also I watched my mother do the same thing when I was a child. She went through divorce and also got a settlement that was definitely not in her favour. Um and the sort of and the and and and it's interesting that you mentioned the the acrimonious splits because I think what I see is a lot of women who think they're having a very fair, very friendly kind of split, and then something happens and it changes very quickly whether the ex gets a new partner or maybe the woman asks questions that the ex doesn't like, um, you know, and suddenly it could because women take it upon themselves to keep things nice. Um, they don't want to be the one to rock the boat. And asking those questions sometimes is enough to rock the boat, right? Like what can I see all your financial records, you know, um what what do your credit card statements look like? Or um and it's sometimes those questions that really set things off.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Um that's a normal part of the property settlement process. So I mean, one of the first when you engage with a lawyer, the first thing that they do is send a letter to your ex, or if he's got a lawyer, his ex like his lawyer, saying, Represent Caroline, um, please disclose whole list of documents, bank statements, um, credit card statements, income tax returns, you know, business documents, all of that. And that, yeah, you can quickly see um if they're going to engage or not. And you get avoidant types as well, which is slightly different, but you can see the ones that are really trying to not engage because they don't want things seen. And that may be because they're hiding things, or it may be just because they don't think that they have to do that. Um, and it's a red flag, obviously, if they're not engaging. And I like all the time I spend so much of my time going through disclosure documents saying, okay, he's disclosed this, but that, this you know, you see all sorts of games that they play. It's almost like they when we used to have paper, we'd be like, let's just throw all the bank statements up in the air and see where they land and stand them in and send them off and make that lawyer do all his work, and it's just crazy games sometimes, and deliberate concealment obviously happens. There's lots of issues we we look at, gambling, wastage arguments. Another big one is you know, when you're dealing with people with family businesses, manipulation of financial records to make valuations incredibly difficult and expensive. And you know, women often are the ones that don't have the access to money either, which is another whole um problem. And yeah, so actually coming back and working with lawyers is an expensive exercise for anyone, let alone a woman that has no income because she's not working, the husband's cut her off on finances. It's tough.

unknown 15:11

It's tough.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Yeah, yeah, that's that's really tough. And it's definitely something that we see a lot. And I was going to ask you actually, what are some of the common things that you see? Because I know for us, something we hear all the time is an ex that's self-employed is manipulating how much they're making. That's a big one. And also that um undisclosed debt, you know, th they've wrapped up these debts that the the partner had no idea about. That's a big one. And also the um what you just mentioned then, where they perhaps provide some information, but not all of the information. What avenues are open to women in that situation? How do you what do you do in that situation? How do you manage that?

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Yeah. So what I do if I um am engaged by a lawyer or if the client comes to me directly, they've got a drop box of documents that has been sent across from the other side from my ex. And they're like, I don't know what any of this means. I don't know if it's a complete set of documents or whatever. So I'll go through the disclosure documents and I'll summarise that, what's missing, to be able to feed back to the lawyer, what additional documents they should ask for. Look at what they have disclosed and look at immediately, starting very high level, um, going, oh, what looks really odd here? Like, you know, these bank statements, there's bank accounts on there who they haven't disclosed, there's transfers to these people. And you sort of drill down. So start high level, drill down, focus on the really big things that um are important. The client might have an idea of assets uh that they know their husband had but haven't been disclosed. Crypto is generally one that um, you know, because it's confusing for a lot of people as to what they can actually ask for, and you know, the the often they say, Oh, we we don't have any documents to be able to provide you, they'll just send us a simple screenshot of a crypto balance, and it's like, well, that's not good enough. It's lots of things like that. And the with the businesses, the intermingling of businesses and personal finances in family companies is really, it's really yeah, um, prevalent. And I mean that's fine, but it becomes an issue when you go through a financial settlement. I won't go into too much technical detail, but you know, if you're funneling personal expenses through a a business or a company, that can create what they call, you know, Division 7a loans or things like that. And they just muddy the waters, and it's hard to know. You can only value something on the basis of what the quality of the documents are that you've given to a value. So, you know, if they're not reliable documents, it's meaningless value.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Yeah. So what do you do in this situation?

SPEAKER_00 17:40

I think sometimes it well, consult with a lawyer. Um, I'm big on working with lawyers and any of those sort of questions that I sometimes it's a strategic thing because it depending on the size of the asset pool, you've got to be really careful that you don't throw all this money in getting things done when it's not really gonna make that much of a difference to the size of the asset pool. And so it it depends on a lot of different factors and it uh comes down to sometimes being a strategic decision. Do we want to pursue this or or not? Uh, how much potentially are we gonna gain from spending $20,000 on evaluation um and legal fees and all of that? So it's yeah. So we sort of talk through those scenarios and go, what do we want to do here?

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah, and that can be a really tough thing, I think, for women who because something we hear a lot about is is what's fair, and fair is just not something ideally.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

I it's nothing's fair, and I think depending whether you're the whoever the party is, the male or female, they've all got different perspectives. They all have their different takes on what is fair to them, and you know, things like if they've had gifts and things from family, it's often seen as and and how they're treated in an asset pool. There's a lot of things that people get really emotionally attached to and they go, This is not fair. And I don't think it's the idea is in the family court, it's meant to be just an equitable fairness is I don't know. I don't think I've ever had a client saying, I'm really happy with that, that was so fair. That was great, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

It's like yeah, but I think it's on both sides, right? It's not just one person walking away saying that. I think everybody feels like I mean, because and again, because there's so many feelings involved, and as you say, because some things we have particular attachment to, it's really hard to feel like things have been fair, especially when someone's being kind of a dick as well. Um because if they're sort of poking you a little bit, it just feels it feels worse. Um, things aren't going nicely. I hope you're enjoying this episode of Divorce with Carolyn. If you are, please take a moment to subscribe and leave a review. It makes a real difference in helping other women to find the show. And if you have a question or a topic you'd like me to cover in a future episode, please send me an email at hello at women's divorceacademy.com. I'd love to hear from you and make sure we're covering everything you want to know about divorce. I know my best friend when she got divorced, she had one I I love this bit of advice that that she gave, which was she had the one thing that she cared about the most, which was keeping the house. And so when it came to any other negotiations, she just thought, can I can I just say okay to that? That's fine, I don't care, I just want the house. And she managed to get the house, which was great. Um but obviously you don't always get what you want, but I think it's you know, it's good to have a plan A and a plan B. And I know a lawyer friend of mine always says, you know, think about can I live with it? Not is it fair, but can I live with that?

SPEAKER_00 20:49

I agree completely. It's about having, yeah, ideal. Here's option A or option one. This is what I ideally would like, but then I'm I'm okay with this and then uh okay with this. And ideally not going into the court system because that's when it becomes not fair, like in right terms, and I'm not a lawyer, I just you know, but I just see it going uh apart from legal fees that you you're spending, it can just go crazy. Like once you get into that system, you're better off trying to work out something uh before that at that stage, which you can both, as you said, both live with mediation or in private negotiation if that doesn't or you know doesn't work at mediation. But uh, you know, unfortunately it's not always like that because the personalities involved, just different emotional states and things. And uh I I'm purely in the you know the f uh financial property side of things, but when you start bringing children issues in, it parenting is a big thing. I was fortunate not to have to do parenting, which I'm so happy and grateful for because it yeah, that's where I think it gets really much more emotional.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Yeah, for sure. Years deep now, and we're still having constant negotiations about finances and about children and about everything. And it's yeah, it's it's at least at least if you don't have children, I suppose you can get through that and then it's you're done, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:12

But this is a long way to my children. They were they were seven and eight, I think, at the time. We just try and keep everything calm, everything smooth. So things that I would have in hindsight thought now that I would have done differently, maybe I wouldn't have, because that mothering, that protecting thing was always the first thing that I I was foremost to me. And that was just let's just keep everything calm, let's let all this go, let's get through it. Didn't advantage me in a lot of ways. And it's only now that I'm going, wow, but you know, I did all of that for a reason, and I don't regret it. Uh, but I can st I can start to talk about things now and get my voice back, which is what I want to do and help women because I didn't do it at the time, and that, as I said, was for a very good reason.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

It's a tricky one too, because I have I I have a an older child from a previous relationship before my marriage. So he's an adult now, and we're talking about this recently, and he said to me, because he's now estranged from his father, and he and I kept things very nice, and this is totally unrelated to finances, but I just think it's relevant.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Okay, we can digress.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

I love a good digression. Um, but he said to me recently, I I wish you'd told me that dad was being a dick, because when he was being a dick to me, I thought it was just me and then I didn't get over it. Um, and I'm sure I could have said it in a nicer way than that. Um, but I just it was, you know, my my primary focus was keeping things nice for everybody, was maintaining their relationship and making sure that I never said anything bad, I never said anything, you know, that would risk that. And then I found out later that my son was going through something similar, and I think he didn't want to say anything either. Because he's so he internalized it all. And so we've sort of we've connected now and gone, oh no, we should have thought more about that.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

Oh no, I completely agree. I look back and go, oh, have I done the right thing? But I did what I did and uh no regrets. I went through a whole period of of going, how did I get myself in this situation? That whole shame bubble came over me. And I mean that was from right from day one, which is why I didn't really tell anyone, and then it was like, oh my god, okay, let's just let's just like cruise through this and be people people pleaser me came out again. I have since done work on that with my therapist. Um I think a lot of us have that one. Yeah, and I see it all the time with my clients. They're just wanting to keep the peace, and it's not always it's not always helpful, but you know, that's what people do to get through survival mode at times, and I lived in survival mode for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Yeah, and that's a good question. It's a question that arises from that is when is it worth not keeping the peace? At what point would you go, okay, it's time to take gloves off and you know, take hold this person to account.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Hmm. I guess first I would say safety is the very first issue. Like, and I'm talking, you know, you've got to really be um when I talk to my clients about when they're separating, always look after yourself first. That means physical safety, looking after all the things. Um, but take the ghost or oh I don't know. It depends on whether they've got the money. And it's a difficult question to answer, Carolyn, um, because it really is dependent on the individual, the support network they've got around them. Uh the yeah, and I'm a big one for community and and resources, it's like get the best team around you. If you've got a really good solid team and you're emotionally strong, do it. I mean, yeah, but you've got to, as I said, look after yourself first, look after the people in your life. And I always think, you know, when you everyone thinks they've got to go and get a lawyer straight away, uh some circumstances I completely agree. If there's safety issues or there's per like big um issues around uh maintaining the property pool and not dissipating and things like that. I think, you know, build taking those steps to work with people like you and me, and and it's like when you go and see a GP, you go to them and you get that. But you know, if you've got a heart issue, then you can go and see a what do you call a cardiologist? Or if you've got you pick your team and get the strongest people around you. And I think if you've got that, then you're in, you can make a decision as to whether you whether you go ahead and and do whatever you need to do.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Yeah, and I agree. I mean, uh obviously it varies from woman to woman. And something we see a lot in Women's Divorce Academy is women who go, I'm just so tired and I want it done. But I'm just going to say yes to whatever, or say yes to 50-50 because he said it's fair and everybody thinks 50-50 is fair, which is the color. Yeah. But and and it's really tricky to find that line between, especially for women that haven't been in the workforce or who have had, you know, have had caring responsibilities and maybe not fulfilled their potential career-wise compared with their partner. It's really tricky long to walk because you get one bite of this cherry, right? You have put in this uh unpaid um contributions that you've made to this family. There's a pool there, you get one bite of that cherry, and then you have to make that work, you know, for the future for you and and potentially for your parents. So, you know, it's important to note that that those contributions that you've made are valued by the court system and by the legal system. Um, if your ex doesn't value them, that's a tricky situation to be in, and that's where maybe you go to mediation or something like that first, try to avoid going to court. But it's really tricky to find that spot of what do I agree to? What's and as we said before, I guess, you know, what can I live with? Is there a way that a woman can look at her future and calculate what do I need here? What's what can I live with?

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Well, I guess a couple of things on that. You you you might think that you need millions and millions and millions and that, but there might not be millions in the property pool. So you can only work with what you've got to separate in the first place. Can't make more money from there. But I would be working with the client and with the lawyer and potentially a financial advisor, because I don't give financial advice, but to do some scenario analysis of different options of separating the property pool, depending on the what makes it up. Is it family home, is there investment property shares? And then doing budgeting like for the separation period, but beyond that. And you know, I do that with my clients. Um, but if they need financial advice, as I said, um, how much super do they want to take, for example, rather than other parts of the property pool, because you can split super. So just empowering them with knowledge of different scenarios so that they can go and make a decision based on that and go, yeah, that I'm gonna be okay, I can see it now. And also putting it back into context of how much you're gonna pay in legal fees to fight, I don't like that word, but you know, to try and get an extra what 1%, 2%, 5% of the property pool. And you've got to think about that because like 1% or say 5% of a million dollar property pool is very different from the same thing of a $10 million property pool where you can probably afford to spend more legal fees to get that extra bit. But so really just putting it into practical terms as well and not getting hung up too much on percentages either, but what's really gonna be and I love that way you just said it's what can you live with and even if it's not fair, but you know, yeah uh yeah, you might end up seeing your husband with a driving around the porch and you go, that's not really fair, is it? But Oh, so annoying. Yeah, but that sort of thing, you go, okay, well how much and also how much emotionally am I going to you know, invest in this to to sort of spend three years, or sorry, it's not three years anymore, but you know, however long in court potentially going to final trial. Yeah. You might think about your mental health and well-being and your children and things like that. So it's just a real education thing and getting them some help in us at all those areas.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

Yeah. And this might sound flippant, but I think sometimes that extra legal money is better spent on some therapy going, how can I, how can I live with that idiot in a porch? Um, you know, maybe there are some ways that I can just learn to sit with that and it's fine because it doesn't change that I don't want to be married to them anymore. No, okay if they have something they like, it doesn't mean anything to you that you stay in your lane, right? Like this is your life now, and you need to focus on building that, watering your own gut.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

And you can. I mean, life, uh I know now it's like 12 years, but it's good. Life's good after divorce. Well, you're getting divorced for a reason, right? You you are separating and getting divorced for a reason. So you just then once you're through that whole process, you can focus on you and kids and just building that new life, which yeah, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Yeah, absolutely. And I think um another I I've mentioned this in another podcast episode, I think, but we did a survey as well of women who had been uh in our in our membership uh post 12 months of separation, and 100% of them were happier than when they were married. There was not a single person that went, Oh, actually, I'd like to go back. They were all like, this is amazing. And it's not to dismiss just how painful and difficult that process can be, but I think it's really important to know that on the other side, and every every woman I talk to, and and whether they're in the membership or whether it's someone like you who's been through it, who is now helping other women. Um, and obviously, you know, someone both of us see women who are in the thick of it all the time. Yeah, but we're still so mindful of the fact that this is it's like giving birth, it's like really hard.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

But at the end, um, there's something amazing. There is. I mean, I I just had my first it took 10 years, but uh or 12 years, I went to Italy for a month on my own. My kids are grown up now, and so in September, October last year, I just took myself off on a solo trip around Italy for four weeks. And you know, it was my time. I could do whatever I wanted. I had no one depending on me. I did take my laptop and do a little bit of work, but it was just like I was walking around, I remember flying and it landed in Rome. Sorry, I'm digressing again.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Um, please, I love this story.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

I was walking around Rome. I got up, flew in late at night, got up early in the morning because I jet lagged at 5 a.m. walking around Rome, just and I just started crying and just going, Oh my god, here I am. I'd never been to Italy. I've traveled a lot, but Italy was one place I just never got to. Going, oh my god, this is my life now. And it's so good.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

So good. Yeah, and I think that's really I love hearing about people, people sort of having that that revelation, I guess, and just getting to do, you know, I I think sometimes we we mourn the things that we're losing from that marriage and the the the shared future that we thought we were going to have.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

But the future that you can create for yourself is even more special, right? Because there's no compromise in there. I mean, maybe you compromise to be around your kids or something like that, but but for you, you get to make all the decisions and that's cool.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Well, never in a million years would I have thought I would be doing what I'm doing now, because I stopped working forensic accounting before I had, or just when I had kids, really. And then I've just now come full circle using knowledge and skills and that that I've had, and they were always there to do something that is helping people in a thing that I'm really passionate about because it's just I wish that I'd had people like you and me, but they we oh maybe they were around, I just wasn't aware of them because I had they want to to guide me. Um so it's really nice to be able to give back and help people and yeah, and my values have changed. That's the other thing that you know uh ten years ago my values were very, very different. And I've been working with a lady for the last couple of years, and you know, my values now are so different to what they were back then. That's so interesting. Why do you think that it's so just uh my journey, just where I've come to. So now you know, I my values now after my values exercise that I did, my values now are self-care and development, personal development, self-care, um authenticity and connection. So they're my three top values. Now I was horrified because my family wasn't number one, two, or three on that. And literally two years ago it would have been, but you know, my boys now 19, almost 21, and I love them dearly, don't get me wrong, but um, and they'll always be part of my life. But it's just focuses now more on on me moving forward as well. Sounds a bit selfish, and I don't mean it to, and I do love you boys if you listen to this, but um I'm sure there's pontels will be top of their list. Yeah, absolutely. Uh yeah, so that's been a really interesting. So I'm really focused on aligning myself with people in business, in personal life, in every area of my life that authentic, connected, and then growing myself at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Love that. And I think that's a blessing perhaps of of the mixture of having now grown-up children and also being divorced, that you really, probably for the first time in your life, get to go, this is about me now. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

And oh my god, that it was such a hard thing to to do at first, because I've I said people pleaser from the minute that I would think I was born. And that's just been all throughout every relationship. And uh yeah, still doing that.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

As highly valued, highly praised and highly valued too. Women who are selfless, women who give, that's how we're taught to get love, right? That's what we do. It's so it's not, I mean, you know, maybe you were born with it, um, but also it's definitely the way that we are raised. And and I think it's so freeing to know that there are other alternatives and that we don't have to be that for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Life is just a completely nothing that I ever would have thought it was gonna be. Um I just give myself a break now.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

You know, in terms of stop worrying about things so much and I think that comes as well with having grown-up children.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

So I hear I don't know, I have one grown-up child and the the other two are still very much uh on my hands. So um I think that will come as they get older. I know with my eldest, I feel this lovely sense of he still lives at home, but I feel he's fine. He's, you know, is his life where he wants it to be? Not yet, but he'll work it out. He's okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

That's what I've come to realize. I used to worry about my boys so much, mother guilt, oh what have I done to my children? All that sort of stuff. Now I realise this is my journey and it it this is the only way it was ever gonna be. That might not make sense, but it could not not have been anything other than what it is. And I'm really grateful for this journey that I've been on. And for our children, it's the same. They're born into our families, and this is the path that okay, I could go really woo-woo, but I won't, you know, like they've chosen this journey as well. They've chosen us as their parents if you like that. Um and this is the journey that they're on, so we've just got to support them and you know, give ourselves a break, as I said. Yeah, be kind to ourselves and not beat ourselves up. The whole shame thing is a real spiral to get into.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Oh, absolutely. And I used to be a parenting journalist, and I spoke to a lot of parenting experts during that time. And I I feel like that's been such a benefit to me because I I I got all this expert advice without having to pay for it, which was awesome. And one of the great ones was was this this idea of pot plant parenting, which is that every child is a pot plant, and all you do is all you have to do is give them love and water and sunshine. And they go into the pot plants that they are. And and it's wonderful to watch them becoming the person that they are. And I think we we overestimate the influence we have on them when we think about the choices that we're making and and the things that we can um you know instill in them. Yes, we teach them our values, and yes, we we can point them in certain directions, but they're gonna be who they are. And the best thing we can do is accept them and love them and and communicate with them. And I I know lots of women who say that their relationship with their kids is actually closer after divorce because they have that one-on-one time with them much more than it's they're not a unified front of two people, they are their own person and they get to make their own choices. And I think that's really lovely as well. So I think people worry so much about it. But it's I think I think take it off your list. Just be the best parent you can and be happy. So a happy parent beats a miserable parent every day of the week.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Yes, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

But again, we've digressed. I love digressing with you. But when it comes to the financial stuff, I'll bring I'll bring it back home. Um, I know that overwhelm is a massive deal for women in this situation, especially when it comes to finances. And as we talked about at the start, especially when there's all these feelings around it. So if someone's listening right now and they're feeling really overwhelmed by the separation and the divorce and and the financial aspect of it, what's what's where can they start? What's something they can do this week to help them feel like they're more in control?

SPEAKER_00 39:26

I've got a checklist on my website that they could download. Yes, I'll share that in to for you to share. So that's just uh, you know, a first step preparation to financial settlement. It covers things like looking after yourself first, protecting your security, your privacy, getting your documents together and you know, people to reach out to uh if you need extra help. But it's more, I think, just getting a little bit of knowledge slowly, like just step by step. Just even if you just do one thing and just I I don't know, download the checklist and just don't even read it. But just arm yourself with a little bit of knowledge so that you start to feel empowered, you know where you're going. I would start pulling together financial documents, anything, anything you can get your hands on, screenshot whatever you can. Start just writing down anything that's of concern, keep a diary, whatever's of concern to you. That and then when you reach out to somebody, you've got those questions. It's just step by step. You've got to go through this process, there's no going around it. Like that story, you know, you gotta go through it.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

Yeah, I have a wonderful friend who always knows the only way is through, and I want to punch her every time, but it's true.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

You can't go over it, you can't go under it, you know, you go under it. But and find those people in your social network or your your personal network too that you can really lean on without judgment.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

Yeah, yeah. As you say, don't judge you, that's such a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

And don't try and give you legal advice either, because don't listen to the if they do that.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

I really don't try to give you advice at all. I think uh it, you know, if you're asking for it, that's one thing. But I think you'd it's really nice to have a safe space where you can share without someone going, you know what you should do, because I don't know. I don't know how helpful it is.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Yeah. There are a lot of people to help. Uh it's just finding the ones that you align with. Otherwise it's just not gonna work. It's really important to just really align yourself with people that you feel comfortable with and you trust.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

That's a big one for sure. So when you with women that you work with, when you get them through that process, what does that look like for them? What sort of transition do you see them making through that process?

SPEAKER_00 41:39

I just see the lightness in people, they're smiling again. It they're just real relief and lightness, uh, and the excitement of, you know, they've got particularly if they're if they've been um armed with the knowledge and they know they've got a plan, they know they're gonna be okay financially, they can look forward to to new things. There's a whole life ahead, and it's really it's it's beautiful to see. And I've remained friends with a number of my clients. It's good to see them moving forward. I I love helping people to to get together.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

Yeah, and I think having that clarity of numbers then too doesn't it it gives you that I can start making plans now. I I really know what I can do and what I can't do and where I need to put my efforts and and if I can take that Italian holiday.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Yeah, exactly. Well, and and also for a lot of people, they haven't had unfortunately financial control, coercive control, what we're gonna call it, is a real thing. So, you know, they might never have had control of their money or even known anything. They're ex I've had clients that are excited to start learning about how to manage their money. It's a whole new thing for them. So financial literacy, I've got a friend that does, in fact, I think she was on your podcast, Naomi Holmes. Um teaches women about financial literacy, she's an ex-financial advisor, and it's just like an incredible thing for them to jump in and go, Oh my gosh, this is mine now, I can do this. So it's just the ownership of their life again.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

Yes, and that that actually happened to me in that uh when I was married, we were constantly in some sort of money trouble, and I was constantly being told that that was because of me, that it was my fault. And so when I was freshly divorced, I thought, oh no, how am I going to be able to manage this? I'm terrible at money because that was the story.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

And get rid of that money story.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

When I started to manage my own money, I went, Oh, hang on. It's not as hard as I think. And also, I'm paying my bills on time. I wasn't rich by any stretch. I was really struggling at the start there. I didn't have much. But I made it work and I knew what I had to spend every week, and I never fell behind in anything. And it just my confidence soared once I started to see that I'm not the problem here. And I'm not saying anybody else is the problem. I'm just saying I realized that, you know, perhaps I was being held in a particular situation there that wasn't helpful. And I think from that I started to think I. Can I can build a life here, I can take care of my family, I can do all of these things, I can start planning for the future. And yeah, my confidence was was yeah, it it it exponentially grew after that. And it was such a wonderful, liberating thing. And I still surprised. Um I am, but I love it. And it's the finances were my least favorite thing, and now they're one of my favorite things. And I like to look at the numbers and go, here's what's happening this month, and I and I I get excited about what I can do. Um, so I really love talking to people in the who help with that sort of stuff because I think what you do for women makes such a massive difference, not just to their bottom line, but you know, to their every aspect of their lives. And I I love that you exist and I love that you're doing what you're doing because I I think it's it there's something really special about women who turn their experience into something that helps other women.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

We've got that lived experience, we understand. No, as everyone's in a different situation, but I think it's yeah, it's just really important. Yeah, you do as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

So if you could go back and talk to Julie back when she was first separating, or you could talk to other women who are just in that early stage now and who find it utterly terrifying, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 45:09

It will be okay. It will be okay, and you will get through this, you know, but saying this too shall pass. This too shall pass. It's hard to see that at the time, but uh, I think just to be kind to yourself. Be and I I keep coming back to that because I wasn't very kind to myself. I was beating myself up about uh the shame and whatever. It's it's all good on the other end. And it the the growth that comes through from it is amazing. Like I don't necessarily always see it myself, but people that I know have seen me go through this have they like wow, you know, you've just come so far in this whole process from what seemed really, really dark to yeah, Italy.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

I love that. I think and it's it's an interesting exercise on this podcast because I'm talking to women who uh are either helping women or have been through it themselves, often both, but you know, everyone has has been through it, you know, and and is out the other side for quite a significant period of time.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

And every single one of them has this lightness to them. And I think we laugh a lot on this podcast, and we and we can sound sometimes a little bit, I don't want to say flippant, but you know, our lives are lighter. And it's I think it's I don't want to hide that because it's really important to notice that. And I and it's not that we don't know what that heaviness feels like, it's that we have done that part and now we know how awesome life can be on the other side, and that's a wonderful thing.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

Yeah, I agree. I never want to make light of a situation that is it is very heavy and and at times dark and and very, very difficult. And it does seem at times that you're just never gonna get there, but you do.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Julie, thank you so much for joining us today. I will put a link to your checklist uh in the show notes and also a link to your website so people can find you and find out more about what you do. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us today. It's been wonderful. If doing this alone feels heavy, Women's Divorce Academy offers clear guidance, practical tools, and a supportive community for the legal, financial, and emotional realities of divorce. Whether you're considering separation in the middle of it or rebuilding afterwards, there's something here for you. Find us at Women's DivorceAcademy.com.