Alone Doesn't Have To Mean Lonely with Dr Marny Lishman

Psychologist Dr Marny Lishman on why being alone is an unexpected gift – and why the messy middle of healing does the real work.

Alone and lonely get treated as though they mean the same thing. They don't.

In this episode, I sit down with psychologist Dr Marny Lishman to talk about her new book, Only You: The Unexpected Gift of Being Alone.

We unpack why so many of us rush from one relationship straight into the next, what the messy middle of healing really asks of us, and how time alone reconnects you with the person you were before you started contorting yourself to fit someone else's life.

It's a warm, honest conversation about grief, growth, fixing your own toilet seat, and learning that a partner should be a bonus in a full life – never a gap to fill.

Key takeaways

• Alone and lonely are not the same thing. You can feel deeply lonely inside a relationship, and content on your own.
• Grief often starts well before a relationship formally ends, which makes the ending slow and complicated.
• There's no set timeline for healing, but rushing into the next relationship tends to bury feelings that resurface later.
• The messy middle – unravelling who you were – is the part most people skip, and it's the part that does the real work.
• A good therapist holds space, challenges you, and hands you tools your friends can't.
• Once the stress settles, your brain starts telling you what you actually need – which might be your career, a hobby or an unlived life, not dating.
• Doing hard, practical things, from fixing the toilet seat to a trip to Bunnings, builds real capability and self-trust.
• Travelling alone, journaling and reading other people's real stories help you hear your own voice again.
• A partner should add to a full life, not fill a gap in an empty one. Complete yourself first.
• You're not alone in being alone. Plenty of people have come out the other side better off.

Links

• Only You: The Unexpected Gift of Being Alone – https://www.marnylishman.com.au/books
• Dr Marny Lishman – https://www.marnylishman.com.au/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Seven years ago, when Women's Divorce Academy was just finding its feet, we had this incredible group of experts we called on. And Dr. Marnie Lishman was one of them. A psychologist with 15 years of clinical experience, Marnie also knows what it feels like to go through divorce herself, which means she brings both the science and the lived experience to this conversation. So when her new book came out, Only You, the Unexpected Gift of Being Alone, I could not wait to get her back in. Because I speak to women every day who tell me they feel lonely after the end of their marriage. Sometimes they're tempted to go back to a bad relationship, sometimes they're tempted to jump into a new one just to fill the silence. But there's a big difference between being lonely and being alone. Maybe this is the first time in your adult life that you've actually been alone, and it's confronting in a way that adds a layer of anxiety on top of everything else that you're already dealing with. As women, we spend so much of our lives defined by our function in other people's worlds. Daughter, wife, mother, partner. To spend time alone, really alone, is to ask a different question altogether. Not who am I to them, but who am I? I think it's one of the most important conversations we can have. I hope you'll stick around for it. It's a really good one. Let's get started. I'm Carolyn Tate, founder of Women's Divorce Academy, and your guide to turning a divorce into the best thing that ever happened to you. This is Divorce with Carolyn. Dr. Marnie Lynchman, thank you for joining us today. And congratulations on your book, Only You. I love the um the subtitle, The Unexpected Gift of Being Alone. I think that's such a delightful way of thinking about it because I know alone can be a bit scary for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

I know, I know. It certainly is unexpected. I think everyone's a little bit, or most people are a little bit scared, aren't they? When um they think they're going to be alone. That's, you know, I don't want to die alone, I don't want to be alone forever.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

It's all those kinds of, you know, histrionic kind of things that people say. But actually, there are a lot a lot worse things than being alone. I know for me when I was married, the worst thing was being in a house with like I never felt more lonely than I did like in the last year or two of my marriage when I was in a house with somebody else, but still felt really lonely.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Exactly, exactly. And I think a lot of people think alone equals lonely. Like it's almost like the, you know, they're they're tied together, those those words. And like you said, you know, the the thought of being alone, um, this panic comes over people and they already predict, they feel uncomfortable, but they predict that it's going to be a really negative experience. But alone doesn't necessarily mean lonely. And you can certainly be lonely even when you're not alone.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

For sure. And so let's go back to the start. So you've got your own experience of ending a long-term relationship and separation. The thing about being alone, of course, in this instance is there's also grief attached to it as well. Can you talk us through how that went for you?

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Yes, yes. And I think, and this happened to me, but it also happened to many couples, is you know, you don't just end a relationship really quickly and then just get on with your life. There's almost like an ending way before the actual physical end, isn't there? So there's like a shift in in a mind for one person or both people in the relationship. And so that kind of that that loss and that grief is happening while you're still in a relationship. So it complicates everything and kind of intertwines, doesn't it, with all the reasons that your relationship's not working as well. So it's a real hot mess. Some that sometimes goes for years, doesn't it? So yeah, kind of ending a relationship is is there's so many emotions about it and it's incredibly complicated. But what I found working with people is because of the mess of emotions, a lot of people just because society expects them to couple, they go from one relationship and they end that and jump straight into another one. They just go looking straight away without that period of time in between where you have to unravel all of the stuff and unpack all of the baggage in that space in between. And people rush through that way too quickly, I think.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So would you say that jumping into another relationship is always a mistake, or are there times when that's okay?

SPEAKER_00 4:26

I've there's no textbook length of time, is there? There's no exact formula for when you're gonna find a a new relationship or the right person. And and many people find a new person while they're still in a relationship. You know, there's no kind of cookie-cutter way of doing it. So yeah, some people find someone straight away, and that's wonderful if it's all working. But I just feel like people err on the side of rushing too quickly because it it just feels weird to be alone, and society has placed these expectations on us. Um, that that little moment of time where we're we're not coupled up, that it's something to fix. And I certainly found that as well is that, you know, I didn't even think. I kind of thought, oh, I'm I'm I've ended my relationship. And obviously there was like heartbreak and all these other mixed emotions, but I I don't think I'd thought too deeply. I kind of people were trying to set me up and I was going out on dates and just doing the thing that everyone's like, oh, she's single now, let's start dating. And I even don't think I did that. I I just did what society expected of me, and it wasn't until a while later I was like, hang on a second. You know, this this alone time is quite nice, and I actually prefer it than going out dating.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Yeah, and it can be really tempting, right? I know for me when I when I separated, all of my friends were doing married things on the weekends, and I had young children at home, and you know, there was a lot going on in my life. It was very stressful. I had an ex that was telling me I was really not awesome, and I just wanted someone to like think I was interesting and tell me I was pretty. And um, and that was really lovely. And I, you know, I I I started dating probably, I don't know, nine months or so after the end of my marriage. And looking back, I would do it differently now. Not that it was a mistake, but just I really enjoy my own company a lot more than I think I did then. Um and I didn't allow myself to go through that process of grief and sit in that discomfort. I know in your book you talk about that process of grief. Can you talk us through what that what that means and and how you can support yourself through that?

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Exactly. Yeah. Well, when I was writing my book, I thought what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna talk about loneliness and how alone does it mean lonely, and then give people on tips to actually uh, you know, navigate aloneness and really nurture themselves while they're being alone, you know, to the point where they're quite addicted to it and, you know, that sort of thing. And so I was writing it and I thought, oh my gosh, I actually need something in the middle here. So I ended up putting this big part two, which was heartbreak to healing, because it is, there's this middle period, isn't there, where you're kind of un unraveling uh all the unpacking all the emotions, but unraveling who you once were, you know, who you are and who you once were, to find who you are again. So you have to wade through all of those emotions. Otherwise, if you don't, if you don't do that, you're gonna carry it into that next phase of your life. Because it is gonna be hard to be alone, isn't it, if you're full of anger and full of resentment and you know, you're stressed out all the time, or you just you can't shift that broken heart. It's you're just gonna carry it into the next phase. So I really um wanted to explore in many chapters what the process is from heartbreak to healing and and say to people, yeah, it is painful, it is uncomfortable. So I wanted to really sit in the space of that and say, yeah, I hear you, that bit sucks. But don't jump on ticture straight away or whatever, bumble or or or whatever it is, um, straight away because you just put it, you're just covering that up, and it's gonna fester underneath and come out in a new relationship. So just hold back, wait a bit, and find yourself again. Unpack it all, tap into it, find out who you were even before that last relationship or the relationship before, because you might find some gold there that's been hidden away for such a long time. Uh, and I think for some of us, we've been in relationships since we were teenagers. You know, that's a lot of us, isn't it? And haven't had that moment where or that window in time to kind of go, oh, who, who am I without the influence of everybody else and everybody else's values and beliefs? You know, who who am I?

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Yeah, and definitely a lot of women that I speak to in Women's Divorce Academy are alone for the first time in their lives. You know, as you say, they started their relationship when they were young, they got married, you know, maybe, you know, maybe they're living in a share house or maybe they're living, you know, with their parents, and then they get married and then they're married for decades, and suddenly they're all alone. And I think it can be really, it's obviously very challenging to just sit with that, let alone the practical side of, you know, what if I see a spider? Which was my thing. But um, you know, it's all of that kind of you know, as we say, like the grief paired with I don't know how to do this hard thing. It's all coming at the same time. How important is therapy in that process, do you think? Do you think everybody should should get some therapy? I know therapy was really helpful for me. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Yeah, yeah. I I definitely do. I think we all need a therapist or or a mental health professional, someone to just, you know, hold space for us, you know, really just sit with us, to debrief with us, to, to challenge us, to listen, to actively listen to us. I think that's really, really important because I think when we've got our friends, because our friends love us and you know, that social support is so important. Um, you know, that's a that's a big chapter in my book, is that we need to be connected to our mates, our friends. Um, but sometimes they will love us unconditionally, and just you know, sometimes we get away with too much friends, don't we?

SPEAKER_01 10:23

They're like Chat GPT, right? They agree with everything we say.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

And so they should, so they should. Very important that we have that have our pack, I think. But yeah, just having that other person, you know, for all of those things, and also not only to debrief and sit and actively listen and and you know, really challenge us at times, but give us some kind of tools and techniques that we might not have thought of, you know, that will actually help us process all the emotions, help us manage our mind. Because I think when we're going through a breakup or we're alone for a long period of time and feeling lonely and we can't shift it, there's a lot of chitter-chatter in that brain of ours, a lot of a lot of worrying, um, a lot of ruminating. Uh, so you know, a therapist can give people a lot of tools to be able to kind of manage that mind and uh get into a more kind of healthier way of thinking so that you can take that those techniques and use them going forward.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Yeah, I love that. I think that and just having having someone to talk to who doesn't have an agenda or an angle too is wonderful because they're just there for you and to help you with your healing. And I know for me, when I when my marriage ended and I saw a therapist, um it was I think I couldn't have then moved forward without it doesn't matter what kind of dickhead your ex is, right? Like you always have a part in it. And I think for me it was really important for me to see, you know, when you make because I was a I was a people pleaser and I was, you know, and as women, a lot of women, right, get their get their their self-esteem and their value from what they do for others. And so when you and I know when I when I did that and when I contorted myself into the person that I needed to be to be a wife in that marriage, I was giving him permission to expect that from me. Of course I was. Um and so it was really important for me to to come out and go, you know, and and I think you know what, side side story, but I think when Harry met Sally has a lot to do with all these terrible relationships because we're all taught to think that high maintenance was bad. Um and you know, that conversation about women who are high maintenance and low maintenance, and low maintenance women are so awesome. No, they're not.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

I'm really mad about it. Exactly. Exactly. I'm gonna be a high maintenance woman for a very long time.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Absolutely, as Meg Ryan said in the movie, I just want it the way I want it.

unknown 12:45

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

And you have to do that, and you have to articulate that because otherwise nobody knows. You're the only one that can advocate for yourself. Anyway, that's a that's a side project.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Exactly. But you use such a good word then, that that contorted word. Because I think not until you're alone and you spend some time alone and you get through that uncomfortable phase, do you even realize that you've been in that kind of shape shifting almost. Um and sometimes for decades. So to spend that time where you're just doing whatever you want and you're guided by whatever you feel like doing without, you know, and it's just truly you, without any sort of contorting. Contorting is that word? Contortion?

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Yeah, that's a word.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

It's so insidious. Yeah, for sure. It happens incrementally, and as you say, over many, many years. Yeah. And it wasn't until afterwards, and as you said earlier, I re I started to feel like the person I was before. And I thought I'd just change, but actually I was in touch with this person again, and I thought, oh, there she is. I love being that person. Um much more mouthy and opinionated. And I love being her, she's fun. So she's slay. Um, and it was so lovely to to feel like I was myself again, and and I didn't even know I'd lost myself. So that was really interesting. Can you tell us a little bit about maybe some some people you've spoken to? Have you spoken to anyone who's been through those sorts of similar things that they were terrified of being alone and have come out the other side and found this joy?

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Yes, yes. You know, less so, and that's why I wrote this book, because what I find is that, you know, everyone's different, of course, but I still feel like society has told us that being single is problematic. You know, I think that people are moving from a relationship to a relationship too quickly. Um, I think we've got a lot better in society, and I think even just globally, the cultural trends of, you know, like Me Too movement and and women just speaking up and women not putting up with um ridiculous behaviour from men anymore, like there's there's such a shift, isn't there, in society with that? So I think women are really speaking out and not wanting to um, and this is even just in the last couple of years. I've seen like I've just we just see in society a big spike in women are just like, nah, unless I someone's a bonus to my life, I'd actually would rather totally bump be my be by myself. And I feel there's a lot of sto in saying that now, and there wasn't possible.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

I don't know if it's happening everywhere around Australia because I'm in Queensland, and you know, we have the new coercive control laws here, and that certainly started a lot of conversations too. Around hang on a second, I've been putting up with this is actually abuse, you know. I think women have just learnt top it and now going, hang on, this is actually it's so bad it's illegal. Um but they just lived with it for so long. I think a lot of women are furious.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Exactly, exactly. So I think we're seeing that in traditional media, we're seeing it in social media, we're just like these massive shifts um in all these trends, and it's it's great to watch. It's great to watch. But I feel like client-wise, like on the ground, I'm still seeing a lot of people not showing gusto in their behavior.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah, yeah. So I I think we're gonna see following on from women speaking up, I think we're gonna see a big spike where people are gonna be more comfortable in being alone in the next few years. And everything moves so quickly now. So I reckon we're gonna see people being more comfortable in you know, leaving relationships that they're feeling lonely in or, you know, that haven't been happy in a long time. Um, women being more confident in, you know, putting those boundaries in place. So I think, you know, um, I don't work in private practice so much anymore, but um I would predict that that's what we're gonna see is more women just going, nah, how about no, I'm not doing that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

And I know I'm also seeing a lot more women um, you know, who are sort of middle aged and older starting to share how homes as well, you know, going, I don't I don't want to live alone, but I don't want to live with a man. So let's share a house and have a lovely time and basically be the golden girls, which is fantastic. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

I definitely see lots of those memes where it's like like a this, it's like a green hill, and it's like my bestie's house here and my and my house here, and then this is our pool, and this is where we garbage.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

This is like it's the dream. It's the dream. Now as you say, I think there's a there is a little bit of a disconnect between, you know, this sort of uh ideal that we have of not putting up with any shit, but also I don't want to be alone either. How would somebody you know got who's perhaps just gone through it and they they find themselves in this situation where we can easily say this is a big opportunity, but those early days, what how can someone learn to start to feel comfortable? What are some tips you can give them on feeling comfortable?

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Yeah, I think first and foremost is it's almost like you have to feel uncomfortable to become comfortable. Doesn't that suck? It does. I just feel like people fast track. I I know I know when we feel those kind of negative emotions, uh, you know, that's our brain telling us, you know, our all our emotions are chemical messages that are telling us what's working and what's not in our life. Um, but it doesn't mean we have to zip out of them really quickly. Like I think sometimes you just have to sit and practice a lot of self-care when you're feeling angry or frustrated or lonely. Like just really look after yourself and and don't fly through it and don't really be aware of the unhelpful coping mechanisms you might have for that. So a lot of us might, you know, drink too much or you know, you know, online scrolling too much. You know, I think a lot of us just have these vices, so be really wary of those and just have a lot of self-compassion for what you're going through and practice as much self-care as you can. And that means, you know, chatting to your girlfriends, you know, reading books, relaxing, just really look after yourself and have compassion for what you're going through. That's so important and such a big part of the process. And then once you can kind of process what's going on there for you and maybe healing from a past relationship and getting rid of that emotional baggage, then you've got then you're stepping into this new self, aren't you? Where yeah, you're kind of alone for a period of time. And then that's where you've got this space now where you've kind of rid of those other negative emotions and it's just you. And then if you're not feeling stressed all the time, it's almost like your brain starts thinking and creating, coming up with ideas. Um, and then it's like this in inner guidance will tell you where you need to go. And it might be telling you, for example, you don't need to start dating, you actually you actually need to work on your career or get a new job, and you know, get more of a connection there. It might be telling you you you need to do some hobbies or extracorrect curricular activities that you, you know, you used to do art and used to play an instrument and you haven't done it for like ten years. Like take that up again. Or, you know, there maybe um, you know, there's you know there's there's things that you kind of like unlived an unlived life inside of you that has been dormant for such a long time. Maybe that's what it's about. So get rid get rid of those negative emotions, and then that alone time will get your brain to start communicating with you about what you actually need in your life.

unknown 20:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

And you're more than just I love that quiet time we get back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

A quick pause from my chat with Marnie. If you've been hard relating to what we're talking about today, stay with me here for a minute. Everything Marnie and I have talked about, that messy middle, sitting in the discomfort, learning to do the hard things on your own, I know how lonely that stretch can feel because I've lived it. Back then what I needed most was other women who got it too. That's why I created Women's Divorce Academy. I've helped over 800 women through their divorce, and Women's Divorce Academy is where that work lives now. A membership and community for women rebuilding their lives after separation. The practical side and the emotional side together. And here's the part that I love the most. You're alone in the sense that you're finally becoming yourself again, but you're not alone in working it out. If any of this sounds up your alley, please come and join us. The doors are open now. Head to women's divorceacademy.com to meet a room full of women who are exactly where you are. Now let's get back to Mani. And as you said, it can be really tempting in those early days to anaesthetise yourself with all sorts of distractions, whatever they might. might be, but that ability to sit still, as you say, is really uncomfortable. Um but that self-care through that and finding those things that you love, which can be intimidating if you've been ignoring those things you love for however long. And I know in your book you have 101 um ideas of love things to do for yourself, which is so nice. And I know that um I know that also when I was separated, I had my kids 50-50 at that time. I don't now so I have much less spare time than I used to, but but at that time I suddenly had spare time for the first time in many years. And I didn't know what to do. And a friend gave me a wonderful piece of advice which was write down all of the things that you always complain you don't have the time to do. Because we all complain about those things, right? Exactly. And you know, cut them all up, put them in a jar and you know on those days, you know, pick something out and um and just go and do it. And of course, you know, you'd pick something out and go, oh not that one and you'd find the one you really wanted. But if I actually had to think of it for myself, I wouldn't have done it. So it was a good exercise for me to go, what what do I even like? I don't even know. Because you know everyone says do what you liked when you were young and I played netball and I'm way my ankles are way too old for that. I played netball, I did athletics, you know, all those sorts of things. I I don't know I went to bars a lot I don't want to do those things anymore. So it was really important I think for me to find new things um and my kids love to make fun of me now because I've just taken up crochet but you know everyone I think it's important to try new things too right so there's that doing things you already like and trying new things.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Because if you don't create that space you're always just going to do what you once did. Like if you don't kind of like work on yourself today, tomorrow you're going to do what you did yesterday aren't you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Yeah. Yeah. There's no growth.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

No but no exactly so you've got to create that nothingness that space and sometimes it involves kind of breaking down a little bit breaking down who you were before and all your old ways and you know all your old values and it's almost like a crumbling that happens so that you can build a new foundation of who you actually are. So that that messiness in between you know and like I said that middle part of my book is the messy the messy bit that's really hard that we skip through way too quickly. But on the other side of that is so many wonderful things and and like you mentioned in my book I've got 101 things and I thought to myself I might just put like 12 lovely things at the end for people and then I just kept going and I thought I can do this.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

I can easily do 101 of these different some will speak to some people and some will speak to others. So I think yeah 12 would have been I don't know I don't know how you'd narrow it down to 12 but I know I did yeah I know for me bushwalking was a big one when I first you know when you've got kids you just don't have time to go and do that. It's so quiet without kids in there too. Oh my gosh yeah bushwalk yeah long walks with kids is never a good idea. What are your favorite things to do when you're alone?

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Uh I like to I like to just move my body so I do a lot of walking I have a a a dog that's probably the most walked dog in my summer probably in my city like I yeah I take myself and her um and chili my dog uh for lots of walks so I need to be outside a lot I need to be moving and I and my friends are a big thing for me. Um so I spend you know uh you know lots of lunches and proseccos with friends and uh they're a big part of my life. Um and I think um you know I've got teenage kids that still living at home so they take up a lot of my time as well. Oh yes yeah are you their taxi still I'm not their taxi anymore. The funny thing is it's quite amazing because they've turned to an age now where they're both on their pea plates. So it's amazing how much time you actually claw back very suddenly when that happens. So yeah I've been actually thinking of what else I can do with those ends of the day where I was usually usually sitting in a a you know a car park somewhere. But yeah I've been utilise that utilising that time that I've got every day I've called back so much time for just reading a book you know like that is I don't think I've done that for like 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

My two younger ones are 15 and 13 and they so I'm always either at rugby training or dance or something.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

And then it just stops like that and it's like whoa you know and if you're a per you know if you're a mum that's been doing that you know seven days a week you know suddenly you've got nearly a whole day up your sleeve to do something just for you and it feels weird at the beginning but then it's very nice.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

It's very nice I feel like lost that pretty quickly exactly exactly now with getting in touch with yourself because obviously most of our listeners will be in that messy middle section. Yeah um how how do you suggest that women find themselves again like I know for me I have a love-hate relationship with journaling because every time I go do it I think that's so helpful but it makes me so mad. I don't know why when I sit down to do it I'm really mad but by the by the end I go oh that was really worth it like I've things come out that I did not know were in there you know exactly what what what things can women do to kind of to help themselves through that and not just to comfort themselves through it but actually to find themselves again.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Yeah I mean I think definitely writing is good because you think when you write don't you and there's so much um when we're there's so much on the surface isn't there so when we're writing we're kind of writing but then unless you write that first bit you're not going to unlock the next bit. So that's sure because you just go in a circle don't you that one thought just keeps spinning around. Exactly but you had to write that down to get what was behind that. So I think writing is so cathartic um and uh journaling is so cathartic. I th I'm a big reader so I think when people are uh going through things yeah either reading I've I find especially when I was going through um a really tricky time in my relationship and then on the other side in that messy middle I spent a lot of time reading autobiographies and because I just wanted to know the real the stories because you know how sometimes particularly in in the modern world that we live in where we've got everything's either fake or you know filtered or you know perfection you that you see online sometimes you don't hear this the real story behind you know all the all the the shiny stuff that we see so I was really keen to hear the real story behind a lot of successful people that you know so and I found it really helpful that they you know have going through the hero's journey as well and going through all the trials and tribulations that I was um and it gave me hope that I would get out the other side. So I think reading is really that's a really nice perspective yeah yeah I think that is really good. Um and yeah I just think in that alone time you know doing something like crazy like going away for a weekend by yourself or taking yourself um on a holiday just grab a backpack and just wander wander and wander wander and wander you know just be excited you know without anyone asking you to do things or telling you where to go or you know stripping off all of your the hats that you have to wear and all those expectations that society places on you. I really urge people just to go somewhere alone even if you're still in a relationship now grab a backpack and go away and just follow you know just be guided by your inner self and see see what happens see what thoughts come up for you see how you feel um because unless we yeah we've I think we just have to take ourselves out of our lives a little bit sometimes and plonk ourselves in a different place. And that's where you've you find something because you're sometimes we're getting whispered aren't we there's whispers of um you know that that sometimes whispers that we never heard before because it was other people chattering and you realize that that whisper is actually coming from you.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Yeah I think I mean for everybody but especially for mothers I think you are always prioritizing other people and always listening to other people's needs and that's such a good point. I know I try I try to do that once a year at least I'd love to do it more but just that going away by yourself and I I try to do it at the end of the year where I think you know what's what's this year been like and what do I want to do next year and but beyond that just sitting still and sitting in the mountains somewhere where it's cool because I'm in Brisbane and it's always hot at Christmas time. And just yeah listening to myself and um I know silent retreats can be really good for that too but they can be very confronting. Yeah you know there's there's women's retreats too if you if you're not quite ready for the alone stuff yet, you know women's retreat can be a lovely way to do it too or um but yeah that's the the ultimate right is that that alone time where you actually are just you and your thoughts. It's an an incredible I think I spend the first 24 hours freaking out and I have butchers, paper and pens and I plan things and then the never the rest I just sort of sit still.

unknown 31:38

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

And that's what and that's the thing because that's what you probably normally do and you'll see that your brain is just so wired you know all those neural connections are there to plan and do and it will be so weird. And that's where we rush to just do things that we always did before and I just really feel like people just have to sit safely in that uncomfortable feeling and things kind of settle. You know it's almost like a culture shock isn't it when you go away and you just it feels weird and you panic and you just want to go back to what you know but you've just got to wait. Wait wait press pause just look after yourself get the support you can and just be really curious about what's on the other side. You know we've got one life don't we've got one life like you know yeah what are we doing?

SPEAKER_01 32:29

And yeah are we measuring ourselves our productivity and what we're contributing to others and imagine going through your whole life and never knowing what it feels like to to be you just to sit with yourself.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Exactly exactly exactly so slowing down and this is for people that you know have are on the other side of a a relationship but I also think it's really important for people in relationships as well to really think about that. Because when we're our best self and we you know we know thyself and we're operating as our best self um independently from anyone else we're actually better better in a relationship as well. So it's you know it's not just for us that have you know have separated uh I think it's for all of us is yeah yeah because we never know when we're gonna be alone like we never know so it's worth um yeah learning how to do it and and reaping the benefits whether you're in a relationship or not.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Well I think yeah because when you're afraid of being alone you'll put up with some shit right because you just don't want to be by yourself.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Yeah and you don't want to be in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Well now I know in your book too you said you said you don't necessarily want to be alone forever what would it take for you to give up that now that you I mean you love it right so what would it take for you to give that up exactly I know oh yeah people try to set me up quite often and I'm just I'm like is he better than my solitude is he better than my solitude so I'm very quick I think a lot of my friends you know are quite sick of setting me up now quite frankly so it doesn't happen as much as it did before.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

Well I know Jeffrey D. Morgan gets a straight a straight um pass, doesn't he? Yes he if he gets divorced I think he's married yeah so he can come straight in um but yeah it would just my my schedule is very busy and I've you know like all the things that we've been talking about today in terms of like nurturing all different parts of us you know if you're nurturing you know your your job and your work and you've got hobbies and you're looking after your yourself and you're physically active and you've got lots of different things on you know you you're spending time with your family and your friends if you've got like a really if you're tackling your life in a really holistic way and being really proactive you know that person needs to be a bonus. So if Jeffrey Dean Morgan does get divorced and yeah he's and I find that he's a nice in real life as well right I might I might um yeah yeah spare a Saturday night for him to go out on a day.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Just a Saturday night though not messing with my my dog hawks yeah it's definitely as you say you know someone would really have to add something to your life for you to give those things up which is a lovely position to be in I think rather than um needing someone to fill a gap that you have.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Well exactly exactly and I'm yeah yeah if I could create everything in my life myself but if I do you know walking the dog one day and I'm walking along the beach and I meet someone and I feel that connection that's what I'm that's what I'm happy with. Doesn't have to be a handsome Jeffrey Dean Morgan and you know in my book as well like I talk a lot about being alone but I you know um but I also say yeah I'm a I'm a romantic as well like I'm not someone that's telling everyone to be alone and it's you know and stay alone forever. Saying you know really nurture yourself don't always try and find yourself in other people complete yourself. You don't need someone to complete you know Tom Cruise you complete me like you can complete yourself and the powerful thing is that if someone comes along they're going to be a bonus to that you know that's that's the message right connect to you first.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

I really love that and I think it's you know however long that chapter is of being alone it's lovely to think about it in that way of it is another chapter of your life. It's not something to rush through or or just like hold your nose through or you know it's it's really just another chapter of your life and there are ways to make it better and there are ways to make you know for it to be wonderful. And when I remember the day that my ex-husband moved out of my house because we I stayed in the in the home that we had been in I won't say celebrated but I marked the occasion um we we actually separated in January and he didn't move out until like April or May so it was like an excruciating few months there. So it was a bit of a celebration. I celebrated by um first thing I did was I used YouTube and I fixed the toilet seat which had been broken for like I don't know years. And I was so pleased with myself that I fixed the toilet seat. And I also went out and and I had like nearly no money but I had to get some furniture because obviously we'd split the furniture and I told him to take the bed because I did not want that bed. And um so while I was at you know getting the interest free like payment plan at whatever it was at Harvey Norman I threw in a bunch of pink furnishings. So I got all new like every my whole house is so full of and pink isn't even like pink's fine. It's not my favorite color but it's just like but I made my house as girly as I possibly could and that's sort of how I claimed my space I guess and I saw in your 101 ways you know lovely things to do but one of them was like decorate your home. So that was sort of one of the things I did that really resonated with me. You know, are there other lovely things that you can do to kind of to own your space and own your aloneness not just sort of to enjoy it but like are there things you can do in those early days to go, this is my new reality and I'm going to really look after myself.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Yeah and and I loved your story then because I think a lot of people don't realize how strong they actually are you know because sometimes for the time you are by yourself and you're having to do things that you didn't ever do before and it's incredibly uncomfortable so much that you're like I just need to start dating again so somebody else can do this. Exactly but the fact that you know you're you know when we do these uncomfortable things you're building these new capabilities aren't you're getting stronger. So in that challenge you're getting stronger so I think that's really important that we don't avoid the hard things and realize that um yeah you can actually do really tough things that's that's really important is and and not kind of shy away from that you know so you know funnings is um yeah somewhere I go often but that's a part of it you know it's not always just doing lovely things you know like we've mentioned a lot there's so many different things that you could do in terms of looking after yourself and spending time alone and relishing in that time um and and whether that's going out for dinner with your friends or it's joining an art class or uh joining a kind of a you know learning to cook a particular cuisine doing crochet like you said like there are so many things there are like hundreds and hundreds of things that we could do but also those little tricky things like going off to bunnings or fixing the toilet or you know doing doing the garden you might not have done the gardening before or I spend time kind of fluffing around with my pool filter and you know I've got my arms you know and but those little hard things like you feel so good on the other side of getting through them. So don't avoid those like you're stronger than you think you are and you feel so good when you have achieved those.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

So yeah or for self-care every time we do that too we're we're we're really forming those neural pathways where a new neural pathway where because when we act as you said before when we act the way we've always acted we are the same person we've always been and when you challenge yourself a little bit and you do these things are a little bit tricky a little bit challenging you show yourself that you are much stronger much more capable than you thought you were and especially if you start with the little things the toilet seat was a little thing but that was you know the start of me being able to do more things for myself that I'd never done before and was scared to do. And I heard I heard a statistic yesterday and I don't know if this is true so I haven't fact checked it but I heard yesterday that uh the thing that AI is being most used for is therapy which is terrifying because as we talked about before you know Chat GPT and all of those, you know, they are really just telling you what you want to hear most of the time. It's not for therapy. They're not challenging and also it's that sounds really sad as well. Like sure use it to solve a problem but for therapy I don't know but what I was going to say is this is actually a really good use of AI I think or Google YouTube whatever. I want to try and fix this and you know in the old days before AI you'd try and fix it you'd find a video you'd follow it along then something would happen that would throw you off and that you wouldn't follow the video and then you don't know what to do. So now we have AI we can go actually I can I will just keep asking it until I get the right answer.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Exactly AI that is yeah no ads get in the way of the YouTube video. And then it's um but yeah definitely so like I said like it's not always just doing beautiful things and you know lying in the bath with candles to get through things it's actually doing the really tricky stuff and you feel so good when you can actually build those capabilities to do it yourself. And then again this is another example of you know you're building your whole self aren't you so you're not you know dating or putting up with people because you need them to do that stuff because it's too hard. So then definitely whoever comes into your life is a bonus. You can actually do that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Yeah yeah and you know I think there are days where you don't want to be capable and I think it's okay to have those days as long as the next day you get up and you know get on with it again. But you know I think the the trajectory has to be forwards. Yeah exactly I think so developing those skills and yeah stop and take a breather from time to time but keep developing those skills. Now I'm going to share a link to your wonderful book in the show notes. I I read a lot of self-help books and I you know it's always like bits and pieces I like to pull out of them. What I loved about your book is it is a full of wisdom and and just wonderful tips and and lots of learnings from you know obviously your work um as a psychologist but I also it's just so you're such a wonderful storyteller and it's so well written that it feels like you're talking to a friend who's just like so much smarter than you. So it's just such a lovely read and it I I feel like you do I felt less alone reading it. It's just such a nice book to read. So um so thank you for writing it and um I will pop a link to it in the show notes. Now just just to finish this off I guess if there was someone listening today who's you know either about like looking down the barrel of this and finding it really terrifying or they're alone and they're you know not comfortable what's something they can do this week to make them make make themselves feel a little bit more confident about being alone this is a really weird thing to say is really know that you're not alone in being alone like a lot of us have you know like it's um it's

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Something that a lot of us are gonna go through, but just realize that there's so many of us who've come out the other side of that and are really so much better off than we were before, you know. Because like being alone will um, you know, you will find out so much about yourself that will um, you know, really benefit you in your life going forward. So don't be scared of it. You're not alone even when you are alone, but know there's like lots of super cool stuff on the other side. I love that. Dr.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Martin Dishman, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much. If doing this alone feels heavy, Women's Divorce Academy offers clear guidance, practical tools, and a supportive community for the legal, financial, and emotional realities of divorce. Whether you're considering separation in the middle of it or rebuilding afterwards, there's something here for you. Find us at Women's Divorce Academy.com.