Divorce with Carolyn

She gave him a hall pass, but her body already knew it was over - Sarah's story

• Season 1 • Episode 16

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0:00 | 48:01

Sarah Gallucci gave up her journalism career at 24, became the primary parent, and spent 13 years holding everything together in a marriage that looked fine from the outside. Her body knew it was over long before she did — she just kept overriding the signals.

In this conversation, Sarah talks about what it actually feels like to disappear inside a marriage, the $30,000 collaborative divorce that was slowly bleeding her dry, how she turned it around with a $4,000 mediation she came to absolutely prepared, and the slow, beautiful process of falling back in love with herself — through herbs, gardening, her Sicilian roots, and one Beyoncé lyric she held onto through all of it.

Key takeaways:

Your body is telling you something. Relief when your partner leaves the room, tension you carry everywhere, not being able to sleep next to them — that's not you being dramatic. That's information.

"He's a good person" isn't always enough. Not being seen, carrying the whole mental load, having your needs constantly minimised — these things erode a marriage just as surely as the more obvious stuff.

Collaborative divorce only works if both people are actually collaborating. If you're the one keeping things nice while the other person takes advantage of the softness, it will cost you.

Come to mediation prepared. Know your numbers, know what you deserve and why. Sarah walked in with statistics and a clear position — and it changed everything.

Staying together for the kids isn't the protection we think it is. Children are more harmed by living in a high-conflict household than by their parents separating.

Recovery takes longer than anyone tells you — and that's okay. It was three and a half years before Sarah felt truly grounded. Be patient with yourself.

Links mentioned:

Join Women's Divorce Academy program Separation Triage - DM "Triage" to us on Instagram @womensdivorceacademy or email hello@womensdivorceacademy for more details

Laid: A Memoir of Love, Sex, and Marriage by Sarah Gallucci

To Be Magnetic — https://tobemagnetic.com (the journaling and manifestation work Sarah credits with helping her get clarity)

Send Carolyn a text

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SPEAKER_01

You know that feeling when someone articulates something that's been going on inside you your whole life, something you never really had words for before, and it's like someone just turned a light on. That's what reading Laid, a memoir of love, sex and marriage, did for me. Sarah Gallucci has this incredible ability to name that particular kind of rage that comes from being a people pleaser your whole life. From shrinking and accommodating and overriding what your body is trying to tell you for years until it just refuses to be quiet anymore. She writes for some of the biggest publications in the world. She's given two TEDx talks, one in New Delhi called Not Sorry, which should tell you what you need to know about her and what she's going to teach us today. She founded a journaling community for women and runs workshops all over the world. She's joining us from New York today, though a big part of her story actually unfolded in India. But what I really want you to listen for in this episode today is the moment she describes what it felt like when her body finally said, I've had enough. Because I think a lot of people will recognise it. Let's get started. I'm Carolyn Tate, founder of Women's Divorce Academy, and your guide to turning a divorce into the best thing that ever happened to you. This is Divorce with Carolyn. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm really excited to have you on. I recently read your book, Laid. Now get hang on, I have to get the sub A Memoir of Love, Sex and Marriage. That's right, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

That's right.

SPEAKER_01

All the big topics. And uh and for those who are yet to read it, um it was a really powerful book for me, and I related to a lot of it in there. There was a lot, obviously, about love and sex and marriage, but also a lot about the power of female rage and about being, I guess, trapped in something that you didn't ask for. So just to set the scene, obviously I want to talk mostly about like how awesome your life is now, but just so that people know you, you were 24, uh freshly married, pregnant, and suddenly realized that your dream of being a foreign correspondent wasn't going to happen. What were you telling yourself at the time to make that okay? That wasn't the life you had planned, right? It was not.

SPEAKER_00

In fact, if and thank you for having me here, and thank you for reading the book and and capturing female rage out of it, because I think that was my fuel for writing it. But yeah, I'm 24, had envisioned a life of being a television correspondent and journalist, was on that path very much so, had struggled with endometriosis for a really long time and was told I I couldn't have children. And so that was kind of the trajectory I was going for. And then I was pregnant while I was engaged, and then pregnant right again right after. So it happened quite quickly, and it was jarring because I hadn't pictured a life where I wasn't a journalist and you know, going to the front lines of stories, and uh that suddenly changed everything because one at the time, you know, as a new journalist, you don't make a lot of money. People think that you do, but you make like no money. And so it became some some type of decision where I would become the primary parent and I would drop back from my career and sacrifice, leave my tenure track and all that comes with that to be the primary parent for our children and caretaker. And uh, I suddenly realized that that, you know, quickly realized it was a mistake for many reasons. I think just one, because that was not my passion. And two, I think it can be really detrimental to make that decision, not fully knowing the consequences of that decision. And at 24, I didn't realize that you do get thrown off a 10-year track, so you're gonna have to claw your way back if you decide to go back to work in the United States. We have social security here that you build up through your through your paycheck, and so that gets taken away from you. And it it also, I think, sometimes inadvertently takes away your power in a relationship when you are no longer earning and helping to earn a living and and it's looked maybe at a certain way that you're raising your children. It's not valued in the same way.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And that's that's definitely something we have in Australia as well. And I think, you know, from the outside, a lot of people, you know, your story was was that classic kind of you're so lucky, he's a great guy, he's got a good job, he's taking care of you. You know, everything looks great. And I know, you know, a lot of women in that situation are sort of told to be grateful, right? You know, this is you're so lucky. A lot of people would kill to be in your position.

SPEAKER_00

Sure. And I think I mentioned in the book too, it does look like that from the outside, and especially from my upbringing. If you read the book, I mean I had a really tough upbringing, and it was, it felt like, oh, okay, I've met, you know, the prince who's gonna take care of me. I know that sounds cliche, but it was true. And you're supposed to be grateful when they're not gambling, they're not drinking, they're not doing drugs, they're not cheating on you. But we forget there can be so many other issues in a relationship that can totally uh destroy it and break it. And, you know, not seeing your partner, not understanding your partner, you know, being controlling, being oppressive in a relationship can destroy it. Just the same.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, for sure. And as you say, there are so many ways to erode that over time. And I know in your book as well, you talked about sex within your marriage as something that, you know, you felt like as a wife, you perform your wifely duties right. Like whether you and you get a lot of advice, right? I know there was quite a famous uh commentator in Australia some years ago saying to women, you know, even if you don't feel like it, just do it anyway because it like brings you closer. And it was, you know, and a lot of women were going, Mm, fuck you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Where were those women when I needed them? Is really what or maybe they wouldn't have listened. Well, I know that that was the advice over and over. And I think you're a person who is obliterated every day by the responsibilities of taking care of young children and shouldering the mental load, right? Like the ticker in your brain that just doesn't stop of anticipating needs and planning. And then you're doing the cleaning and the cooking. Um, and then you're keeping your body tight. And like for me, that also meant like I'm going to the gym for several hours a day, and I'm not eating probably as much as I should be eating, and bleaching my hair completely blonde and straightening it and nails and makeup, and you know, then you get to the end of the day, and this person is asking you to do another thing. And to say no once, you're like, you know, like I'm tired. Like, I I I got nothing left for me. I I actually just want to go to like super go to sleep. I need sleep. And to have to have that constantly challenged and and stolen from you. That was, I would say, that was the beginning of the end, is when someone doesn't see that you're drowning and you're under the waves, and they're not even trying to like see that you're under the water. Um and like, you know, going from my body, the thing that I had given to my children, and you know, was so not my own for so long. I just needed my myself back and I I didn't have it. Yeah. So I would say that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And in that situation too, I think, you know, the it's always, it's always a the onus is on the woman to opt out, right, right, of sex rather than there's no opt-in. It's like, you know, it's this kind of, you know, whatever the whatever the routine is that you get from in this is obviously in heterosexual relationships, from the man, you know, I interviewed someone some time ago that their shorthand for sex was just uh shall I get the towel tonight? Which is like, wow, that's not sexy. But that's a whole other topic.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you know what it's like emotional safety, you know, like you know what's sexy is like doing your duty around the house and not having it all on me. Like all of that is super sexy to me. That like yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well I've listening to you when you say, I feel like I'm really struggling at the moment and going, How can I help?

SPEAKER_00

Like that is a turn on, you know. I would have dropped it every day of the week for something like that. But yeah, when you when you're just I hope men are listening and know, you know, these are the secrets. This is what men really want.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. But that's okay.

SPEAKER_00

Right. I'm like, don't give me an fancy dinner, or maybe do that, but also like, can you please just do your part around the house and and check in with me, make sure I'm okay. Yeah. Cause yeah.

SPEAKER_01

This is what I always joke. I always joke about being uh like the equivalent of a female stripper for me as a man who'll just listen to me talk for an hour. Ask informed and interesting questions.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Like that will be my porn all day ago.

SPEAKER_01

So uh how long were you married for before you end up separating?

SPEAKER_00

So it was a total of 13 years, but I think like the separation itself maybe took, I don't know for sure, but in North Carolina, in the United States, North Carolina, you have to be separated for one year before you can divorce. They make it mandatory. So I believe it was almost at the two-year mark that it took for the final separation. But I often tell people like the separation for me mentally happened when I started to feel that enormous pressure and my body and my sleep and my autonomy just taken from me. And I offered him a hall pass and I like a, you know, that's for those who don't know what a hall pass is, like permission to sleep with other women. And it was kind of like if there's all these duties, like things I have to do, that's the first one that has to go because everything else is like helping my children survive, helping everyone live, you know, and that would be more optional. Um, so I would say like that was the beginning of the end. And I didn't do it based off of like I wanted to go and have sex with other men or anything. I was trying that I was literally trying to survive.

SPEAKER_01

Um yeah, you just want to be left alone, basically.

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, and keep my family together, which is weird because I used a non-traditional way to keep a traditional family together. The lengths we will go. It's so bizarre to me now.

SPEAKER_01

Looking back at that, do you think that that ever could have worked? That whole pass idea?

SPEAKER_00

Not for us. I think maybe for a different type of couple. I think there were way more issues. Like outsourcing sex would have been a band-aid for much deeper wounding going on there. Yeah. So no, I don't think so ultimately. Yeah, and who knows, like to be fair, I really don't know if he ever used it, and it actually doesn't matter because at that point, you know, that's when we started sleeping in separate bedrooms and like buying and renting homes purposely with a different room so that he could be there. Um, because I just also got to the point and like I couldn't sleep next to his body physically, even if it wasn't like in a sexual context, it just got to that point where my body couldn't relax and sleep next to him. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and as you said, that feeling of safety. If you don't have that feeling of safety, it's just that was it, it's everything. Yeah, yeah. And so when you finally did separate, what did that feel like for you in those first that first week or the you know, how what do you remember about that time?

SPEAKER_00

Well, the first I remember this. I remember being newly kind of expatriated back to the United States from Delhi. My story goes to India where we were living as a family in the pandemic. We were evacuated to the US and were Airbnb hopping. We had no home. And so we had this like a lot of time together. I think that's probably why a lot of divorces happened in the pandemic. Anyway, a lot of divorces happened during Caibo.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So we had that time together, and a girlfriend of mine, she said, You should try this manifestation work or whatever. And I said, I'm not doing that, you know. And then I looked into it and I did the free clarity exercise. And I'll tell everybody, it was called To Be Magnetic. And they don't pay me to say this, but it was life-changing and continues to be to be magnetic. So they have meditations, they have journal prompts. And I did the first one, and it had me go to like my death bed of 80-year-old. And what do you regret when you're, you know, at your deathbed? And it was so clear to me immediately I would regret staying in this marriage, you know, longer. And like I gotta get out because there's a whole other life that I need to live. So anyway, I contacted the lawyer right after it was like that. And actually, we still yeah, we started off with um, well, I, at my urging, which is ridiculous now, I started off with what's called a gentle divorce attorney or a collaborative divorce attorney. Um, it was the trend at the time. And I think I was still in this mode of trying to placate and please and people please him because I was like scared, I think, in many ways. But anyway, so we do this start this gentle collaborative divorce. He gets his lawyer, and the weeks and months in the home during that time were the most contentious, like terrible just months ever. And it got even to the point where we had started some negotiations and just the mood in the house, I said, I can't stay here another second. Like, I'm afraid of what I'm gonna do to myself. Like, and I had never felt like that before. It had gotten so bad. And I said, I need to go to a hotel. Like, if you're not gonna leave the home, you refuse to leave. I need to go to a hotel and sort myself out. So I went to a hotel, and that's when I said to the gentle divorce lawyer, I said, We need to get going on this separation. Like, this is very bad. His parents lived in this area, so it made sense for him to leave. We did the documents so that he would be assured he wasn't relinquishing rights to his children or the home, but understood that he really needed to leave. And so when he left, so it wasn't when we started the separation, but when he left the way my body just was so, I had not felt a sense of relief in so long. Like it was just the biggest exhale to just sleep in my own home and wake up and it's quiet and like birds are chirping, and like, you know. So anyway, that's what that felt like. But then it can, you know, continuing the gentle collaborative divorce, I realized it was not a good fit because uh sometimes you need to be direct with people. And it took a long time to even get to the separation agreement, and it took about 30,000 US dollars to get even just to the separation. So I was starting to see if we continued on this path, there would be nothing to left to fight over. You know, like it would, there would be no future secured for me and my children if we continued on this path of softening language and taking our time and being gentle with each other. So I immediately said, let's do a mediator if we can handle that. I would really like to do a mediator. And in $4,000, you know, I had my divorce and I was right.

SPEAKER_01

Because I think the thing about collaborative divorce is it only works if both people are truly collaborative, right? I think a lot of um, and I'm not suggesting you necessarily fall into this category, but I think parts of you might have at some point you're a bit of a people pleaser, and I was too. And so what happens in that collaborative divorce is that the other person tries to take advantage of that, right? Because you're trying to keep it smooth and you're trying to keep it nice. And I speak to women every single week who go, we're just keeping it nice. We want to keep it nice for the kids, and then it's not them keeping it nice, it's the woman keeping it nice. Correct. That happens all the time. And as you say, like it just bleeds you dry until you give up and you agree to stuff, I think.

SPEAKER_00

And I did not want that to be me. And what I would say about going to mediation, it worked for us, and I knew that if I did mediation, I would have to do my homework. So that means I was coming to those meetings prepared. The academic in me, I had my statistics ready to go, you know, like I would really like to keep the home. I believe that's fair because the children should not be moved any more than they already have. I came correct with my truth. Like, this is how uh my my personhood has been violated for so many years, and this is what I deserve out of this. And yeah, I came ready. And I remember at the end, my ex said something like, You're one of the toughest negotiators, like, and I'm in business. And I'm like, I'm fighting for my children's lives. I'm I'm fighting for our lives here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And standing up for yourself, which is no small thing, especially when you've been someone that goes along with things for such a long time. I think a lot of exes find that really shocking, but well done. Thank you. If you're in the early days of separation, this could be for you. This divorce is not happening to you. You're in control. I know it doesn't always feel like that when you're in survival mode, panicking, making decisions you're not sure about, feeling lost. That's why I'm beta testing a program right now that's designed to do exactly that. Help you find clarity, build strategy, and know that you're on top of this. Six weeks, small group, and here's the good news. You can be anywhere in the world. Numbers are limited. So if this sounds like what you need, please either DM me on Instagram at Women's Divorce Academy with the word triage. I'll fill you on on how it works, and we can figure out if this is right for you. Or you can email us hello at women's divorceacademy.com. Let's get you feeling in control of this separation. You've got this. And who was your support at that time? How did you how did you I mean, obviously you were relieved to be out of that, but you also going through divorce is really hard, right? Like it's almost a full-time job. How did you who supported you and how did that work?

SPEAKER_00

In the worst possible um one is uh an alcohol, which was uh terrible. I think I would be categorized as an alcoholic. Like I drank. I it lessened when I was going through the actual divorce um negotiations because I wanted to be very clear headed. Um so I would say it was alcohol at first, which is a terrible support. Um and then I moved to the city.

SPEAKER_01

Well, no, no, that was that was sort of your way of coping before the end of the marriage, too, wasn't it? Because you were if your husband was in the house, you were like, Well, I'm checking out. Correct.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So that pattern continued a little bit to my detriment. And then when it got to the negotiations and the actual mediation, I understood very quickly that I needed to be very clear-headed. And so I didn't really have family support here, but I did lean on again the meditations that I had started to do, yoga and just trying to cut, you know, cut back on alcohol, nourish my body as much as possible with like good food and movement. Because yeah, I just I really needed clarity and I needed to be regulated. My nervous system needed to be extremely regulated in order to handle the level of stress and negotiations that were happening at the time.

SPEAKER_01

And then now, I mean, looking out the other side of this now, I mean, you didn't just survive this divorce and and you know the repercussions of that marriage. You've written this amazing memoir. You've uh given more like what two TEDx talks, which is amazing. Um, you founded a journaling community, uh, you're a professor at university. Um you've used your knowledge to like train law enforcement about domestic violence and all that sort of thing. Like that's not just surviving, that's you know, creating this whole amazing, incredible life, which is something really cool that I love to celebrate in women that have been through hard stuff.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

When did you start to feel like yourself again after all of this? And how did that unfold?

SPEAKER_00

You know, it was it was actually in the very little simple things. So when I mentioned waking up in the morning and hearing the birds chirping, um leaning into that in the simple things of my culture. So I'm Sicilian American and and really leaning into okay, how do I want my my home to feel? How do I my my life to feel? And it was really um starting to lean into these beautiful, comfy, like ho house dresses that were also just lovely, and going out and hanging my laundry on a line, gardening, getting my hands in the earth and just making the herbs that would nourish me and my children, um, getting down to herbs for making teas that can help, you know, with anxiety and joy. And so I really, with the absence of my ex, was able to fully embody like me at this very deep ancestral level and started to like refall in love with myself again. know because I think sometimes like especially it where I've lived and then being in the southern United States, sometimes I feel very outside, like very othered. Like I fit in everywhere, but I fit in nowhere. And but being in my home and making it very Mediterranean and then kind of forming my life around that and then sharing that with my children and even getting back to like our language, like reclaiming Italian again, all of those things started to feel like, oh, this is me. This is really me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's wonderful. And I think I know I was a little bit the same. I mean I'm not Sicilian American foot, but I I did start to notice that I thought I had just changed as a person through my marriage. But then I started to feel like the old version of me again and I realized how many different ways I had contorted myself to fit you know something without even realizing it's so beautiful to to just that find those primal ways of rediscovering yourself again. That's cool.

SPEAKER_00

I love that.

SPEAKER_01

Now your TEDx talk not sorry is awesome and is all about you know women using their unapologetic voices which I know is really challenging for a lot of people what did it feel like to be standing on that stage and saying those all of those things after what you'd been through to just be standing there and not only talking for yourself but talking for other women.

SPEAKER_00

It felt it felt like a culmination of everything I had been through up until that point. And it was actually that was the TEDx that first one not sorry was right before I divorced my ex and before I told him so we were still together but you know all of the things that you know were in there. So here's what I'll say about it. It was relieving and it was a way to hopefully my mission would be to tell other women that like the more honest you get with yourself and self-acknowledged that's like the first hurdle okay then the next one is like actually saying it out loud in some way whether you're writing it down and journaling it, you're voice noting it to yourself or venting to a friend, whatever. The next step is okay, well who do I need to say this to who needs to hear this message and that can really change the dynamics of the connection or relationship in all types of ways but no matter what it's going to be good because you said your piece, right? So even if it leads to the ending of a relationship or a fracture in a relationship, at least you you said the thing you needed to say because if you don't I have this belief I have no science behind this but I have this belief that if you have like unscreened screams inside of you it will manifest in you know chronic illness all type of mental health it's like it can and if you keep it in you it's just it's keeping all of that and I think that's great to just get it out. But also we tell women all the time like find your voice find your voice I think women already know their voice. They have it for me the next step is like you have to trust it in the face of so much of adversity and in the face of manipulation and gaslighting and and cultural expectations and norms you have to you know have methods to trust it no matter what when everyone is trying to tell you to be quiet or they don't believe you or it's not that bad.

SPEAKER_01

You have to be so rooted in that yeah I think especially women you know of our generation that we grew up with gaslighting being completely normal. So it's really hard to recognize I think you know I I love like how my kids can recognize it from 50 paces and I still have to kind of just I think you know not only not only recognize it myself but also point I think people just do it. We all I think we all kind of do it sometimes without even noticing that we're doing it because sometimes it's easier than owning whatever emotion or truth that you you should be sharing. Instead you go oh no it's nothing like obviously like no you're being weird.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Well I think I think particularly for women if you say something we get it the worst because you know we're difficult you know we're crazy you know what you know why do you have to make such a big deal of things like it's it's this way to like minimize yeah yeah or if you just disagree someone will go why are you being so like argumentative just disagreeing with you.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And my favorite it's just a joke yeah I like that one. I think I had a colleague last time I was working as a journalist I was working for a global media media organization that I won't name and and I had a colleague there who was like he was started to tell a jok uh something about his wife and we're in this meeting and someone went and I was the only woman in the meeting and somebody went I don't know if you should say that and he went oh no Carolyn's cool aren't you Carolyn?

SPEAKER_00

You're cool and I just remember like when I was growing up I would have gone yeah of course you want to be the cool chick right like you want to yeah of course I'm cool yeah totally like oh yeah I'm in on it I'm in with the boys and I just went no I am not cool whatever you're about to say do not say it there was a there was a male colleague of mine who interrupted you know in the middle of a meeting a woman who was giving a presentation and I remember like I don't know what came over me but in the middle of the meeting I just got up and said in what world would you interrupt anyone else giving a presentation up here in the way that you are doing it right now.

SPEAKER_01

Come on yeah you get fed up you get fed up yeah for sure for sure and it's it's it's a slow process but at least we can do what we can do and and hopefully share these stories and have other people under sort of recognize it in themselves. And I know so going back to you know you wrote this memoir which must have been really challenging to revisit a lot of that stuff because as we said before it's really raw like you are really honest and you delve into some pretty personal spaces.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it's such a gift I think to other women that you did that but doing it yourself how was that for you?

SPEAKER_00

It's a capsule in time you know and I wrote most of it while I was in the midst of going through what I was going through. So everything you know in there it's from my journals I'm a journalist and and being a journalist of my own life is no different and I, you know took copious notes and investigated and for me my process as a writer is I actually like to be super close to the embers because I feel like my natural proclivity is to be as raw as possible and that's just my style. So writing it while it's raw is great for me. Some people prefer it to be removed you know perspective. So that's why you'll notice like it's in first person, it's in present tense and I kept it pretty close to my journals. But as far as like difficulty I would say what was difficult was more in the editing phase because I wrote it in the years of my marriage but edited it and published it in my divorce. And so going back to that woman and like who she was and what she put up with it was sad. It was really sad and it made me feel regretful that I had wasted some time. And then I kind of got over it because it got exciting with book tour stuff and you know all that comes with that. I would say I got delayed grief over everything maybe six to seven months later like to the point where I actually ended up um willingly like checking myself into an intensive mental health facility and it was so unexpected to kind of process the level of duress that I had been under and the gaslighting like family members stopped talking to me after my book was published. So feeling like okay they're believing him or they're on his side or you know something like that. That was another layer that I had to go deal with. Yeah so it was delayed it was delayed.

SPEAKER_01

You you talked about in your book you know that your some some family members sided with your husband you know while when you wanted to sort of separate they were trying to get you to stay is that what they were upset about I think that I think they were upset about maybe some of the things that I revealed about them.

SPEAKER_00

And again I'm no stranger to the fact that truth can be subjective but it was my truth. It's the way I remembered it that's the best I can do you know and so anyway I think revealing some details was upsetting to them for that and people don't like how that makes them look essentially. Yeah yeah so I think that was difficult and then like post book publishing yes many still kept in contact with my ex-husband and had a whole relationship with him but refused to have a relationship with me which is extremely distressing and just upsetting and shattering if we're being honest. Yeah yeah no understandably and so how did it help going and when you checked yourself into the facility how did did was that helpful yes and no um because here it's interesting I checked myself in and it was supposed to be also like double as almost like a rehab because it's but it's bizarre because it was at a point in my life where I was drinking the least but it was also just feeling like too much because maybe my age or menopause it was just like drinking hurt me now. Like it didn't feel good and yet I was still doing it. So I was like what's going on there anyway I went uh and it was a facility that has fluorescent lights and you sit and you are talking to people about the 12 steps and no shade to the 12 steps what ended up happening is me realizing it was not the place for me. It was extremely clinical you know you are peeing in a cup while people are watching and you know it was it's I did not need that level or even that type and I it actually made me feel worse being there. The good part about it was me again going back to my roots and my culture and realizing that I had every single tool to heal myself. I just wasn't using it. So going back to growing certain herbs and mixing them together to make healing teas and you know going back to that honestly it sounds trite but like learning how to make teas that nourish your body that are very medicinal that saved me. Yeah. What's your favorite tea in that regard I do like to do this like hibiscus butterfly blue like pea flower situation and then I'll mix in like some usually at night like a valerian root and valerian root is cool because it relaxes you but don't drive on it because you will like it's too much. And then I I ended up making like nice lavender syrups at home and ginger syrups to add to it. So yeah it was very there's this like healing kind of apothecary situation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Beautiful and I think yeah beyond beyond I mean the herbs obviously are I think it's nourishing yourself isn't it and just listening to your body and taking care of yourself and loving yourself in a way that you probably really needed at the time. Now I know you're also a writing coach and you founded this journaling group during COVID. So obviously having written laid you know the the healing properties of of writing your story.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And I I must so I I'll tell you where I'm coming from because you and I are very similar in lots of ways but not in this way because as a journalist when I have to write about myself I get really mad. Every therapist I've ever had and I could change them every time they tell me to journal tells me to journal and it just makes me furious and I think also because I'm neurodivergent I find I struggle to name feelings. And so I'll be writing and I don't know whatever. But I am getting better I I have been practicing and I do I actually I once I do it it's it's like going for a for a really long run or something. I love to run but also sometimes you just don't want to and then you do it and you go oh that was actually really good. And it's always really good. What would you tell women about the the cathartic qualities of journaling?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I would say first if you're having a visceral reaction maybe it's not for you maybe you need to tell everyone to just like screw off and you know like it's not for you. So it's like if I didn't say better afterwards I would but I know that I should yeah so I mean to that I say too journaling can be many things. It doesn't necessarily have to be like sitting down and and writing and handwriting it can be voice noting yourself on a walk like with your feelings that considered is journaling doing art like I mix in painting and drawing into my journals and um so I do it that way. There's other times where I use guided prompts that are more creative and artistic to help me it will be like for an example a prompt might be open a book and look at the first sentence and then finish the sentence and you know and so and then all of a sudden I'm writing about all this stuff from my childhood like what happened here you know but I tend to for me I like to do vent journaling where but it doesn't actually get you anywhere to be honest. It can feel good in the moment but then you're kind of ruminating on it which is no good either. So I like to do like here's the problem and like solutions based. So whatever problem I'm having I'm always kind of using prompts. So that's why I recommend guided journaling like guided journaling is something that I really honed um through my manifestation and meditation practice. And so I have a theme. So if uh you know for example I'm struggling with finances and I'm feeling like oh things are very tight or they're not where I want to be or actually I'll use this example. I am trying to retire by 55. So I'm 41 right now and my goal is to retire by 55. And so the problem is that I'm a teacher and don't get paid, you know, to even have this type of dream to retire at 55, but I'm gonna find a way. So I use journaling as a way of you know putting in my goals and then reverse engineering the steps backwards like, okay, well how much money does need to start going into an investment account where are the money leaks and then this is where AI gets involved in my journaling process. So I'll have AI you know kind of analyze my my budget and look at where I'm leaking money that is like spending money outside of my values or something like that. And so that's the way I use journaling too. So I kind of use it creatively and then I use it guided and then a little bit of venting when I need to I love that I I could get way more into that kind of journaling especially that it's solu I love solutions.

SPEAKER_01

I'm a big solution focused kind of person and and the fact that you're bringing in AI to help solve those problems instead of you know writing for half an hour about like what your thoughts are about them, which may or may not be helpful. I mean I love it.

SPEAKER_00

Well and it's going to help it with book writing too I will say going back and leaning on my my journal notes wow I mean it was such a source like because sometimes you forget certain things and then getting down to the dialogue just made it so pulpy beating flashy and real like it was just really good material. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah I can imagine now if you could go back in time to Sarah, you know, in those early days when you're getting married and he and you know he was a great guy, right? Like everyone, you know and I know he treated you really well and you thought this was going to be everything what would you tell yourself back then about how things go would you give yourself advice like you know the thing that's rising to the surface to me would be listen to your body the first time before it even utters to you that there's something amiss or there's something to look into.

SPEAKER_00

Because even had I just looked into it like if we just even say it gently rather than listen to it and run, you know even if we just at the very elemental level say okay my body's clocking something and I need to at least bring it up I felt like I didn't even talk about it. I didn't even bring it to his attention now in my mind right now do I think he would have had the emotional capacity intelligence and empathy to handle it in a regulated and uh you know elevated sophisticated way. No. But which is why you kept it to yourself you knew that right I knew that was not a safe person to say however had I said it earlier maybe I would have seen like anger earlier or I would have seen other behaviors earlier and it would have given me like more of a signal to get out just faster. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah it's that it's the old business saying right fail fast just like yeah I needed to fail I should have failed really fast.

SPEAKER_00

And you know the other thing is too and not to bring alcohol back into it but I think too in my young 20s I was still drinking a lot and so you really don't know what is going on with you when and I'm not shaming anyone for drinking alcohol. I'm just saying for me I'm not able to pick up on the signals and the signs in the way that I can now like I I'm very attuned now to my environment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah yeah and all of that experience brings a lot of wisdom too right but yeah you're right that when you're I think when you're having a drink it just it stops you from processing the feelings it stops you from really feeling the feelings it keeps everything really manageable but it doesn't solve anything it just prolongs whatever's going on until you deal with it. And so unlike you like no judgment if you want to do that that's fine. And I definitely did not shy away from a glass of rose or two when I was going through my divorce but but it's it doesn't solve anything and you still have to eventually show up for yourself and sort it out which you clearly did in magnificent ways.

SPEAKER_00

Well and you said it so well like it just prolongs everything and you have no forethought really if you're drinking to the level in which I was you're just kind of in it for the day and it it numbs out everything.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah I was kind of I was I had a foot in both camps so I was training for marathons in the morning and then drinking a fair bit of wine in the evenings and so because I had that balance I was like it's fine. Yeah but I look back and go well yeah I probably could have drunk less probably could have run faster marathons. I was never gonna be on the Olympic team it's fine and now I have many like better things to do with my time than be out there for four hours running but but so you've how long has it been now since you separated I think total it has been about four four and a half years now it's so interesting.

SPEAKER_00

I was thinking about it today especially in anticipation knowing that I'd be chatting with you and it really wasn't until like three and a half years after the divorce where I felt like truly rooted assured calm and even to the point where you know I was like I'm really just I may not have all the money I would have had you know had I stayed married. But I feel like I just am abundant in so many ways. I've made this just like beautiful life for me and my children um and we are happy and joyful and peaceful in our home and we share a lot there's a lot of laughter there's also just like a lot of discipline we're all kind of chasing our goals and it's really really beautiful and so I feel like this at least this past year so now we're talking like the fourth year I really kind of hit my stride and really I'm like reached a point where like if it stays like this I'm really gonna be even okay still like if this is the worst case scenario for my life like I've already won you know this this could be okay. Yeah. Yeah I love that so what's next for you okay well apparently I can't shut up so I still like to write books. I have two that I'm working on right now because I just can't figure out which one I like better. But they will be still in you know my lane is love and relationships. It's something that fascinates me. So we'll see how those manifest because we had a lot of fun you know I say that jokingly dating after marriage as a you know late 30s a 40 year old woman plenty of adventures and interesting lessons to deliver from that area. And what else I would say there's going to be some more speaking opportunities at the intersection of just gender roles um gender norms in society and artificial intelligence misogyny and just ways forward ways to think about ways in which immersive technology can help move us forward. So I think more in the writing and speaking way we would be going forward. And then also have happily met someone and and Planning a move back overseas again to be possible.

SPEAKER_01

So that's uh yeah. So just everything. Everything is changing.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, everything is changing for the better.

SPEAKER_01

Exciting. And also, you know, you said you you can never shut up. Please never shut up on behalf of all women. Please never shut up. We we want you to keep talking.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And I just want to finish off with, you know, most most of the women that listen to this podcast, apart from the men that I hate listening, hi to them. But also the women that are listening are often either thinking about leaving or they're in that, you know, that really messy middle first year after leaving. And what would you what do you want them to know?

SPEAKER_00

I think I would say there's this line that got me through, I would say, like this quote, and it was from Beyonce's Lemonade album. Beyonce's Lemonade album got me through all of the emotional feelings that I felt of rage, empowerment, sadness, all the things. But at one point, and I remember one of her songs, she said, um, me and my baby are gonna be alright. We're gonna get we're gonna live a good life. And I think that that stuck with me through everything. And I think it's totally possible. Like the faster you can leave a situation that is terrible and unhealthy and you're not feeling good in it, literally the faster your life just starts exploding and blossoming and being beautiful in all the ways. And the other thing would be I don't know if this is related, but I'll add it on here is staying together for the family is so harmful. But you end up putting your own health and mental health in harm's way. And if you have children, you are actively then choosing to keep them in an unhealthy environment. And I think sometimes like we really need to to kind of reject that narrative of staying together, you know, is best for the family. Um, because where are the studies that are done on, you know, the single moms who are raising two children who did better after divorce? There isn't any, you know, there should be, you know, because they want to talk about single motherhood being terrible for children all the time and broken homes. But like someone do a study on that because me, it's markedly different, you know, watching me and my children now thrive in all the ways.

SPEAKER_01

And I I love that. And that was the case for me too. I was, it was one of the catalysts for me. I just sort of looked around and I thought, I don't want my children growing up to think this is what a relationship should look like. And I speak to so many women who have that moment when they move out of just exhaling and just suddenly feeling safe and feeling comfortable and like they can exhale. And there is a study, I don't know about the study about single moms doing better, but I know there's a study that uh growing up in a house with conflict is worse for children than growing up in a single parent household. So there's that one. Yes. Um I'm gonna dig, I reckon there will be studies. There's studies for everything. Surely someone's done that. I'm gonna find one.

SPEAKER_00

If not, please let me know because I'm an academic, so let's do it.

SPEAKER_01

There you go. You haven't got anything else on your plate? Sure, let's do that as well.

SPEAKER_00

Passion project.

SPEAKER_01

Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a joy to chat with you, and I highly recommend everybody read your book. It's amazing. Thank you. Thank you for that. I'll include a link in the show notes for that too. Okay, perfect.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you all.

SPEAKER_01

If doing this alone feels heavy, Women's Divorce Academy offers clear guidance, practical tools, and a supportive community for the legal, financial, and emotional realities of divorce. Whether you're considering separation in the middle of it or rebuilding afterwards, it's something here for you. Women's Divorce Academy.