The Person-centred Podcast - That's where the magic happens

In this months podcast, our guest Katie shares her story about her journey into nursing and how person-centred moments have shown up throughout her career. 

Katie shares not just her own experience with the people she cares for, but how person-centredness is imperative to healthy, flourishing teams. 

This podcast is brought to you by The Foundation of Nursing Studies and Listen Up Storytelling.

Transcript

Sheila 0:10

Hello and welcome to the Person-Centred Podcast, Stories from Nurses and Midwives. I'm Sheila McGovern from the Foundation of Nursing Studies.

Caroline 0:21

And I'm Caroline Dickson from Listen Up Storytelling.

Sheila 0:25

In this podcast, we offer nurses and midwives a space to share their stories to support professional learning, identity, well-being, and the creation of healthful workplace cultures. The podcasts are brought to you by the Foundation of Nursing Studies in collaboration with Listen Up Storytelling and will take the form of different mini-series.

Caroline 0:49

In this first mini-series of six podcasts, Stories That Shape Us, we will share experiences of person-centred moments in practice from nurses and midwives from across the UK and reflect on how these experiences nurture and shape us and those we care for.

Sheila 1:08

We are very excited to welcome our guest today, Katie. Hello, Katie.

Katie 1:13

Hi, hi Sheila. Hi, Caroline.

Sheila 1:15

Now, before we start, before we hear your story, Katie, we would just like to highlight to listeners that in keeping with the NMC Code and the Storyteller's Bill of Rights, we will avoid using identifiers of people or place. Thank you.

Sheila 1:34

Great, great to meet you, Katie. What we usually do is really kick off about thinking about your journey into nursing. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Katie 1:46

Yes, of course. Gosh. Many years ago now I was actually supposed to go to art college and do an art degree. And I had a complete change of heart actually.

Katie 1:58

So I applied late for my nursing course at university, and because I applied late, I had a few months off, and I wanted to do some volunteering. And I ended up caring for a girl at university. I was one of two carers that worked sort of back-to-back and supported this girl at university. So she was wanting to complete her studies but needed care round the clock, and off I went. I'd never been sort of living away from home before. And I thought she was incredible.

Katie 2:32

And I'll never forget because I often obviously had to go sometimes to lectures with her and out and about and do activities with her. And she wanted to do some shopping. And we were in a clothes shop and she was looking at things and she said, Well, I'd like to take that, that, and that. And then she went to move her wheelchair to go and pay.

Katie 2:55

And I said, Well, hang on, do you not want to try them on? And she said, I can't try them on. And I said, Well, why can't you try them on? She said, Because I'm in a wheelchair and I'm sure I won't be able to do it. There may not be enough space. I don't know how to do it. I need help. And I said, Well, why don't we give it a go?

Katie 3:11

I remember her telling me afterwards that that was the first time she'd felt okay enough to go into a changing room and actually try on clothes, decide on whether she actually wanted to buy them. And that then led to her having this huge love and passion for shopping, changed her sort of body image and made her become more confident in what she was wearing and how she wanted to be as a young woman. And that stayed with me.

Katie 3:35

You know, I've I've been nursing for around 30 years, and I just felt deeply that should she should be able to be treated according to her needs and her passions and actually to be her as an individual. So when I went off to start my nursing a few a few months later, I knew I just wanted to make a difference and that people deserve to be centre to their care, whatever that care looked like, or whatever that care was.

Sheila 4:01

Wow, that's a great story.

Caroline 4:03

Oh, isn't it just Katie?

Sheila 4:05

Yeah.

Caroline 4:05

And you had me there in that changing room.

Sheila 4:08

Yeah, totally.

Katie 4:09

I'll never forget it. I never forget that moment.

Caroline 4:12

Yeah.

Katie 4:12

Her eyes just lit up at the thought of someone actually taking the time to help her in that way.

Caroline 4:20

So, how did you get from there into nursing?

Katie 4:24

Uh so I'd already applied, but it it'd also been a perhaps always in the back of my mind, a grandmother that was a nurse and she'd already talked to me about her experiences of of working and living in London. And I knew then, after the experience of being a volunteer carer, that it was the right decision. And I then went off to start my nurse training a few months later. But I also, because I was late applying, I had to go where the places were, and I and I just took myself off to yeah, a place that had um vacancies and and off I went.

Caroline 4:59

Brilliant.

Caroline 5:00

We're thinking in these podcasts about person-centred moments. What do you understand person-centeredness or person-centred practice to be?

Katie 5:12

I think it's something that actually I think you have an element of that within you anyway. I think the kind of person I was when I started my training, and I am now, I was emotionally intelligent, I had empathy, I cared, I was always a good listener, always a good sort of supporter of people. So I think it's essentially delivering care that is tailored to that person. And that can be anything from making sure that someone has say the basics, it's not really basic because that person is not the basics, but having a wash when they want to, being freshened up when they want to, being able to behave in a particular way and not have certain elements of themselves stripped away when they are in a in a care setting.

Sheila 6:07

Lovely. And I'm just thinking about what you know, I I am going back, I'm back in the the changing room again because it was so powerful a story, and what I heard, not just about how that affected that day for that person, it's about how it affected afterwards, how it went on to change change maybe the trajectory of that person's life going forward, changed the thoughts and feelings around fashion. Yes. Yeah, yeah. That's hugely powerful, isn't it?

Caroline 6:44

And identity.

Katie 6:45

Yes. She she hadn't up until then been able to express herself in certain ways, and the clothes and the shopping experience led to hair, makeup, etc. N

Katie 6:58

ow I was 18, I was in my element, I was thinking, this is great, you know, if I can help this person in this way, and we got on and we had a good rapport, but it was something that will always stay with me because why shouldn't she have that? You know, why why shouldn't she? I did, so why shouldn't she? And she was in that environment, she was away at university wanting to be individual and be herself, and I know that those moments that I experienced with her made things easier for her in the environment that she was in.

Katie 7:34

It created a really good friendship as well, and it and it gave me perhaps the courage to, and it was courage because I was brave, you know. I I didn't know what was going to happen when we walked into that change room. It could have been, you know, I was just thinking, why not? Let's do this. What what's the worst that can happen here? Let's make sure it's still safe and and dignified, but let's let's try it and see. And I guess that's how I've practiced for a long time. I'm I'm I'm trying to be brave and courageous.

Caroline 8:02

And I was interested, you said friendship there. And that's an interesting one that'd be great to hear a little bit more of because certainly when I trained in nursing, you're very much trained into boundaries and you know, keeping yourself as uh a professional and you know, your your patient is very othered. Tell me more about the friendship.

Katie 8:30

I think that's how I've always nursed. To to become to to expose parts of yourself in a way of talking about yourself in certain ways to to patients and families doesn't mean that you have crossed about, you know, there's ways of doing that, there's ways of creating rapport and giving a part of yourself that then I think builds up the trust between that relationship.

Katie 8:57

And throughout my career, throughout the interactions I've had with patients and family members, sometimes you find yourself in a in a particular sort of situation where yes, you probably are more boundried, or it's very much perhaps about these things need to be done, and that's all that person really wants from that interaction. Other times people want more. I mean, I've I've sat with people in the middle of the night on on wards where they've just wanted to hold someone's hand and talk about their life or talk about things they've done, um, express their fears about the future, and then they also want to to know a bit about you.

Katie 9:37

And especially when I was nursing in a sort of the sort of acute medical side, I was quite, you know, I was I was I was young, I was living in a place that I didn't grow up or anything. I I had a lot that I was experiencing, but also patients want to find out a bit about you, you know, otherwise we were always asking about them, but actually we have to give a little bit of ourselves, but it's it's in a very thoughtful, measured, boundaried, but authentic way, and that's how I've always been.

Katie 10:13

I would never be afraid to perhaps answer a question if someone asked me something, if I was expecting them to give me their answer. You know, what are your fears? What are you worried about? Tell me about, tell me about your life, what have you done? You know, if if I can't answer those questions to some degree, how can I expect them to open up to me? So I think it's about gauging that relationship, having really good communication skills and feeling the the situation.

Sheila 10:45

And I think what I'm hearing there is, and and you're making me really think about all of those moments, you know, that have that has happened to me when I've when I've met with with people and shared. And it's helping to kind of make it more balanced and helping to give some power. So sometimes it can feel like, especially if we work in institutions or organizations, we can feel like we have more power. And and it's about that, I'm thinking about that sharing of each other, sharing of something is about kind of addressing that power and balance.

Katie 11:19

Yeah, you have to be alongside. That's how I always thought, you know, you're there in a uniform more often than not, standing by someone that's in a position where they're vulnerable, they are potentially alone, away from their surroundings, away from their comforts, away from from even knowing what's happening. You have to remove some of that element, you know, you're in a uniform and you have a job to do, and you have a role and a badge, and you're adhering to all these rules and regulations, you know, you've got your hair tied back, you've you've got no jewellery or everything, but you have to be able to sit down and be alongside that person. That to me is when those really those what I call golden moments happen. That's that's what's worked.

Sheila 12:01

And acute medical wards can be you know scary places sometimes for people coming in and also for staff, I remember.

Katie 12:12

Yeah, that they're they're very frantic, busy, fast-paced, and often, you know, as a as a qualified nurse working with students, so it's also about making sure that you are trying to impart a lot of what you've learned or how you are and how you are managing those encounters with patients and families, and and how to then impart that onto students and be that kind of role model. And I've always, always um loved working with with students. I work less so with them now, but those are those amazing moments of saying, come on, let's go, making sure that they have the you know the best kind of experiences.

Caroline 12:50

What do you say to colleagues who say there's no time to be alongside others? What do you what do you say to them? Because that's something we hear a lot.

Katie 13:00

It is hard, and I must admit, you know, I've worked in both the NHS sort of acute trusts through to the charitable sector. It is hard. There's always, no matter where you work, there's a pace, there's a job to be done. There's, you know, you need to be in a lot of situations sometimes justifying your existence, whether that's a service, whether that's an organization. Yes, there is busyness.

Katie 13:28

But you know what? Having been in recently in the hospital setting as a family member and seeing the care that my mother um received, the little moments in a really busy ward, there were still those little moments where someone either just looked at my mum in a certain way or spoke to her in a certain way, pulled the curtains around when they could just feel that there that we needed some privacy without any words. And it is still there. So you can, it doesn't matter whether you've got one second or three hours, there is always, I think, the time.

Katie 14:07

If you're listening, hearing, and being and feeling that environment you're in, and also not only listening, feeling, and hearing your patients and families, but also your staff and colleagues, then there is always, I think, time to make that difference and to be present.

Sheila 14:26

I love there. I love what you just said there about only one second and about being present. Because I'm just thinking around like if you have a minute to be present, it's more valuable to the people around you than if you had a half an hour with them and weren't present. Yeah.

Katie 14:45

Absolutely, absolutely. It's all about that quality, isn't it? Quality over anything else.

Caroline 14:52

It goes back to that sense of a way of being. So the way you go about what you have to do, because we it's a practical profession, isn't it? You have to do things, but it's the way you go about doing that, and it's the radar. I love that the way that you kind of talked about get listening, sense you have to you know feeling your environment and trying to really respond in the moment to patients' families.

Katie 15:28

Absolutely. I think it's almost a radar that you can't turn off. I mean, I find that not only have I got that within the work environment, I even have it in other social settings and things where you almost sometimes overfeel that situation. That's how I always work. It's how I show up every day in in my career, job, role.

Katie 15:50

That's how I also would want my team members and colleagues to show up. So it's it's um, you know, we we've obviously this is around that person-centered care and what that feels like, what that is, how we do that, it also has to be demonstrated within yourself and with staff as well. Oh, I said my passion is you know staff well-being and and and how you support and nurture your workforce because you can have all these amazing moments with patients, but you have to that has to come from within.

Caroline 16:26

And do you have any examples about nurturing the workforce?

Katie 16:31

Oh gosh, yes. I've I've come in to lead teams that are thriving, functioning really well, and I've also led teams that are struggling and not thriving. Normally it's just a case of getting together and revisiting why you're there. What are we all here for? What's our shared vision? What's our shared goal? And then what's going on? You have to work from your own values.

Katie 17:03

I think it's really crucial to know yourself and your own values in order to then and upholding your own values in order to then to work within your team and to shape how that, you know, what that care looks like and what that service looks like, what do the delivery looks like? I always aim to lead and and to work with colleagues with compassion and feeling. I mentioned courage earlier. I feel that you know, we should be courage. You know, we have to have courage, you have to have integrity. That's really important to me.

Katie 17:33

But whilst doing all that and caring for your colleagues is about keeping patients, families, communities at the centre, but upholding our own personal values. I went to a conference recently, actually, and there's a I've got a quote from one of the speakers that really, really it just resonated with me and it really spoke to me. And she said,

Katie 17:54

You yourself have to be the first beneficiary of your values. So you you have to and I and I believe that you know if you're saying you're compassionate and you're caring, but but actually are you doing that for yourself? Are you living your life in that way? And I think you have if you can be the first beneficiary of that, then you can then you can deliver that to others.

Sheila 18:18

Wow. Yeah, you need to get it for yourself before you can give it away. Yeah.

Katie 18:24

There's so much research out there into, you know, why people may be struggling with with this kind of work and and burnout, but essentially a team should be able to thrive, they should be able to learn, feel supported, feel valued, feel, feel heard, and also contribute to the growth of whatever that service is. And you know, that's to me the beauty of of nursing is you you you get to meet incredible people, you know, yes, being a role model for others, but also always learning from other people, you know, always using encounters and and situations to to grow from.

Caroline 19:05

And that issue of um feeling able to contribute is so important, isn't it? You know, feeling like actually what you're doing, who you are matters.

Katie 19:17

Yes.

Caroline 19:17

You know the workforce needs to feel that as well as consistent. Yeah, I matter. What I'm doing here is a really great thing. But we're very poor at celebrating success, aren't we?

Katie 19:35

Absolutely, and that's one thing I love doing with teams and and colleagues is you know, look at the wins, look at those small moments that you know it could have been a really tough day and a really hard shift, but actually look at what you've done, look at those little golden nuggets of things that have happened that bring that has brought that person joy and not only brought the person, patient, family member joy, then has a ripple effect on the team around. So what sometimes feels like really difficult times when you really unpick what you've done and look at the impact you've had, that is what gets you to then come in and come in the next day and do it all again.

Caroline 20:17

I I'm wondering person-centred moments, you've given us a few really good examples. How has that shaped you as a person and as a nurse?

Katie 20:29

You learn from those encounters and you learn from experiences, and you don't always get it right either. You know, sometimes you you know you may come away from a a room or an interaction with someone and think, oh my goodness, you know, that that didn't that didn't go well. Okay, so right, what can we what can we do? And I think it shapes you because you learn and you it's that continuous growth.

Katie 20:55

You you know, you can become an expert in your field, whatever that is, but actually for me, every day is a learning, you know, we say every day is a school day, but it is, and I think in in in nursing it is because you will never encounter another patient exactly the same as the previous person you've looked after. Everyone is different, everyone is individual. People will be so different in how they manage their illness, how they present. And for me, it's that learning and that reflection. And then also, if you're working, you know, with with values around compassion and feeling and courage and integrity, that shapes every other encounter, every other sort of job that you have, every role you have.

Katie 21:41

So I think that's what shaped me is the experiences, the learning from patients, actually. You know, you there's an it's an amazing amount of learning from people and how their cut their courage.

Sheila 21:53

Yeah, and you mentioned earlier about that radar, and that even in your other in your personal life you radar still there so it's and that radar is getting it's been fine-tuned almost all of the time and it's I'm just thinking about that and because it's hard to explain that isn't it there there's not many words to explain it and it's kind of that invisible part of us isn't it and it's it's there in every nurse and midwife that goes out there to do the work that they do.

Katie 22:22

It is it's it's it's quite selfless isn't it I was on holiday recently and someone fell ill in the restaurant and um there were three of us nurses that literally ran over to this to this lady that was actually really quite poorly and it was you know there you are in another country and you're on the floor on your knees trying to help and you look around and you've got two nurses that you've never met before that you immediately think colleagues right what are we going to do here and you immediately form a a bond.

Katie 22:58

I think that yeah I think that's probably an example to try and describe that yeah you you you you it never stops you know you're thinking right how are we going to help this this person how are we going to support her until official help comes.

Sheila 23:11

that's a great story.

Caroline 23:13

It is a lovely story. So I'm hearing from you that sense of it's shaping not only what you do but actually shaping how you feel the bond you feel with other colleagues the commitment that you feel with others and crucially, and one of my my passions uh coming from the health and leadership standpoint is about knowing self that centrality and knowing your own values and using values as a compass if you feel like that you're gonna want to stay in the profession aren't you.

Caroline 23:48

How do you create that real you talked about that ripple effect didn't you when you were talking about nurturing the workflow and you talked about and having a shared vision and making that explicit didn't you but how do you help others to be another you and how do you help them experience what you experience

Katie 24:09

Gosh I think it it's about trying to create and it's obviously not something you can create on your own. It's about the culture of the workplace you know you talked about that you know shared vision it's one of the things I tend to do when I go into new teams is say right let's do some work around shared vision. What are we here for? What are we doing? What's working well what's not how can we change does it need to change how can we be better and how do we look after one another how are you how are you checking in? What does the beginning of the day feel like to you? What does the end of the day feel like to you?

Katie 24:42

So you can't make people sort of be it's not about making someone become you or or being the same. It's about drawing out what's in them. And I think if if you can create a culture where people feel respected, heard, valued, where they can develop, you know, one of the things I love is you know seeing a team member thrive and and shine you know seeing someone grow. What what what would you like to do well I'd like to study this or I'd like to learn more about that. Great brilliant let's try and make that happen.

Katie 25:14

But I think you you know it's about creating the culture within the workplace that that is able to support staff in various ways through development learning leadership the the clinical skills and the communication skills but also hearing them you know good good support HR, good clinical supervision you know resilience-based clinical supervision get it in there get people in a room that feel that they can then reflect and learn and then leave that room and go out and carry on doing their their job.

Katie 25:46

So I think it's just trying to create a path for people and more often than not people want to be part of that and they want to to make that a success.

Caroline 25:56

Yeah they want they come to work wanting to do a good job and wanting to be the best that they can be. In the the person centred literature they talk about it it talks about creating the conditions. I always I I kind of sometimes think about it in terms of you know in public health they talk about going upstream. Yes you actually have to address the cause and then the the effect will will happen. It's about being proactive isn't it and and yes as and we're all leaders aren't we

Katie 26:28

Yeah every single person is a leader yeah

Caroline 26:31

But if you can create those conditions then when colleagues are feeling their environment they've got their own radar going that that environment is supportive that environment is encouraging that that environment is compassionate which enables them to to be person centred as well.

Katie 26:51

Yeah that's where the magic happens isn't it where people feel able to then have those ideas about what if what if we could do this can I can I design this can I do this there's there's magic moments absolutely

Caroline 27:04

Katie that's a fantastic place to end magic moments with a golden moments and magic moments yeah yeah which has been so wonderful thank you so much for sharing your stories with us today.

Katie 27:16

Thank you for having me.

Sheila 27:18

It's been lovely to to hear your story Katie thank you.

Caroline 27:21

It's been fabulous and and you've talked a lot about nurses and the importance of emotional intelligence about being committed to being supporters of of people and and listeners so so that you can respond. You brought up this notion of friendship I think which is uh really interesting and person centeredness because it is about human connection and actually human connection is the reason why Sheila and I started this podcast.

Caroline 27:53

And you really have talked about that so well and about the importance of that if you are to have the sort of relationship that builds trust. I love that sense of having a a radar and feeling your way yes by observing by listening but also um by feeling your environment so that sensing Sean Cardiff talks about that in his Person Centred Leadership model and he likens it to dancing the tango I think that's quite a good image. Y es you talked a lot about nurturing culture and nurturing your workforce and so paying attention to the to the culture so being very innovative and proactive rather than relying on being reactive so there's so much uh learning in that so thank you once again

Katie 28:48

thank you

Sheila 28:48

thanks Katie

Caroline 28:50

what stories do you have that shape you dear listener what learning can you take away and ponder before we meet the next time we look forward to seeing you then

Sheila 29:01

bye

Caroline 29:02

bye