Episode 16: Calling, Craft, and Staying Power with Babbie Mason

In this rich and personal conversation, Heather sits down with award-winning artist, songwriter, author, speaker, and mentor Babbie Mason to talk about calling, staying power, and the songs that live far beyond the moment they were written.

From her early years as a preacher’s kid and teacher, to writing songs the church still sings, Babbie shares what it means to stay rooted while the world keeps changing the packaging. Heather and Babbie talk about legacy, songwriting, grief, hospitality, mentoring, public ministry, private faith, and the kind of life that is built over time—with truth, faithfulness, and an open door.

Heather also shares a deeply personal connection: how a songwriting class with Babbie became part of her own grieving journey after the loss of her mother.

This is a conversation about more than music.
 It’s about healing.
 It’s about calling.
 It’s about creating from a place that reaches people.
 And it’s about what happens when a life of faith becomes a life of fruit.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Hello and welcome back to the show. The big deal of the 80s, the final of the 90s, and now is exactly what we're doing with TikTok nowadays. And through all of it, she has stays unmistakably herself. She is an artist, songwriter, author, teacher, speaker, mentor, and most of those rare women who have built something that genuinely lacks. She has written songs that talk to actually things, not just applauds. So today we're talking about the craft, the calling, the classrooms you came from, the life she built, and the songs that have taken hearts for a very long time. We're going deep, but we're gonna have a good time getting there. Welcome to the show, Pappy Mason. Well, thank you very much, Elizabeth Carroll. I need to write that down. That was good. Well, I it is all true, and I am so glad you are here. I I am so glad for the friendship that we have built over the years as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Likewise, my friend. It's so good to see you and thank you for that beautiful introduction and for this awesome opportunity to speak with you today. This is going to be a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to it. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

So let's start at the beginning. Where did you grow up and what was that world like?

SPEAKER_00 1:37

I grew up in Jackson, Michigan, which is about 70 miles west of Detroit. And I uh grew up at in a preacher's home. My father was a pastor. And so that meant that uh early on in my life, I got the job of, you know, singing in the church and working in the church and playing the piano in the church. And um, by the time I was nine years of age, I was uh playing the piano full time for Daddy's church and all the responsibilities, rehearsals, and it was just uh a wonderful upbringing. Sometimes it was a lot of uh a lot of pressure as a nine-year-old kid, um, a lot of responsibility that I grew into. But there a vacancy came in the in the in the needs of the church, and I could play a few chords in the key of C. And so I got the job.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

Well, one of my favorite connection points is that we are both PKs, and if you know, you know, preachers' kids get recruited into things with absolutely no warning and very little democracy. So Yeah, we we have very little say in the matter, right? That's exactly right. So, what did being raised in a in a preacher's home give you?

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Well, it gave me a wonderful foundation that I'm still standing on today. Uh, my father was a pastor 40 years in the same church. He founded this church. Uh, my parents are from the south. My dad is from Alabama, my mother is from Mississippi. Um, and so my parents were very hardworking, coming from the South. Uh, they were, of course, um, you know, had to live and and work and survive under Jim Crow laws in the deep south. Um, and uh they they migrated to Michigan um in the 40s during the Great Migration, uh, where a lot of black people came up from the South. So my my my parents brought with them this work ethic that was just undeniable. They brought with them uh a vision that was just unmistakable. And so uh my parents have always been innovative and creative and bridge building. Uh my father, like the Apostle Paul, was all things to all people that he might win some. And so my dad, uh, you know, being a black man, you know, up uh bringing everything that he brought with them, and my mom too, who supported him beautifully, they brought with them from the South this dream that um that black people could build their families and their churches and their work and their and their recreation and everything that that every person desires to be and to have. And so my father was the president of the NAACP, he was a college professor, he was the pastor of the church, he was a prison chaplain, he was a county commissioner. Um, he did a lot of things to help black people um advance their dreams and their and and their cause. And and my siblings and I caught that, we we caught that vision and that love for people and that love for um using our gifts and talents to make God look good. And um, I think that's that's where I just get this love for you know things like teaching and and ministry and writing and singing and built people building. Uh it it came very, very easily for me. All I had to do was watch my parents.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Well, that generation was very special. My parents were very poor and hardworking people, and and so we we didn't have a lot when we were growing up. And so we had to work for things. And you know, that teaches you a lot, right? When you have to work hard to get what you have.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

I mean, you know, when when we were young, all of us had a, you know, every kid in our family had a had a job, you know, by the time we were nine or ten, we were we were working. Um, but it wasn't so that we um yeah, we we wanted to have things, but we also loved to work. I mean, it was just a part of our DNA. We just found joy in serving. And so my my sister became the church secretary. You know, I was the church pianist, my brother was the janitor, my oldest brother had a paper out. And later, um, you know, uh in the in the 60s, my oldest brother um launched uh a community newspaper that's still uh it's it's more of a statewide newspaper now called The Blazer, but it but it got its seed in the 60s as a voice for the black people in the community. And so all of us have had this voracious love for um using our gifts and our talents, and and they happen to make early on. We just caught that entrepreneurial vision, um, and we still are practicing those ethics today.

SPEAKER_03 6:20

That's wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

All of us.

SPEAKER_03 6:21

That's awesome. So was music something you naturally ran toward?

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Yeah. Um, I I came into the I think I came into the world with this gift. I mean, the Bible says that he has given, you know, uh every man a gift, and um he's given certainly he's given me a gift, and I think um it was it was nurtured by my parents. Um my father was a singing preacher, you know, it's very common for black Baptist preachers, you know, to to sing from the pulpit. But I I think probably the the the heart and the soul of the of music came from my mother. Uh my mother was, she's in heaven with the Lord, and my dad is too. But my mom had a beautiful voice. In fact, my mother and I recorded two beautiful songs together, Stopped by the Church, which won a dub award in 1996, uh, and um as Gospel Recorded Song of the Year, and another song called God Will Open Up the Windows and Pour You Out a Blessing. And both of those songs are on YouTube's uh the song God Will Open Up the Windows. There's a video on YouTube. My mom is a YouTube sensation, um, even though she's in heaven. They both left a great legacy. Um, and so you know, I remember hearing my mother singing around the house, and my mother directed the choir at church, and so she sang a lot of solos in in church, and then I uh started singing duets with my mother, and then as I got older and began to record professionally, I wanted to capture that moment. I I recorded an album called Heritage of Faith, where the theme of the record was celebrating my heritage as a as a black woman, but also as uh a believer and as a person with a rich heritage. I come from five generations of preachers and pastors that I know of. My great-grandfather, my grandfather, my father, my eldest brother, uh, my ne his son, and my first cousin are all preachers and pastors. And I'm believing that God is not done yet. Um we have uh, you know, people in our family that have a deep love and calling to serve the Lord. And so um it's just in our blood, it's in our DNA, and it's something that we love. Um, so I got this music gift from, I believe, from my mother, and I'm doing my best to pass it on to my children. Um, my youngest son, Chaz, is a crazy uh singer, songwriter. We've recorded some together. Uh my older son, Jerry, is an uh engineer and uh percussionist and plays drums beautifully. His daughter, my granddaughter Layla, is a killer singer, songwriter, musician. So it just keeps, you know, we we just um it's something that we I think comes innately. But once we realize that we have that gift, immediately we begin to nurture it. And of course, we're a community of singers, so we all encourage one another, sing together, record together, and it's just uh something that we love to do as a family.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

Oh, I'm sure it's very fun at your house uh on the holidays.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Oh, yes, it is. You know, we somebody's gonna grab a guitar, somebody's gonna sit at the piano, and the next thing you know, we are singing around the piano or writing something together or going upstairs to the studio together, and it's just something that we really, really love to do together.

SPEAKER_03 9:39

Well, instead of the singing lefeurs, you could be the singing masons, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Oh, yeah. Yeah, we are already doing that. And it's uh it's just such a blessing to see the hand of God uh, you know, touch your family for generations and to to know that that love um for God and that love for music is just being um perpetuated and and continued for the next generation.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Sure. So one of the things that stands out to me about your story is that through every shift in Christian music culture, every new sound, every new platform, every new set of gatekeepers, you have remained unmistakably yourself because even in the Christian music industry, it is still an industry, and the pressure to adapt is real. And some people adapt so much they eventually don't know who they are anymore. And how have you stayed babby while everything around you kept trying to change the packaging?

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Well it took a minute, Heather, honestly speaking, it took a minute for me to figure out where I fit. Um and I realized um pretty early on that I that I didn't fit. I had to create a space for myself. And it took me a minute to be cool with that. Um, because when you're different, um, you don't fit in, you stand out. But I soon began to realize that that was God's purpose. He did not want me to fit in, he wanted me to stand out because he wanted me to send the message to other um women, particularly black women, that, you know, let me let me let me say, let me insert this here. You know, there are a lot of stereotypes in in music, and there's a stereotype that if you're a black woman, you know, from the Detroit area, from the Motown area, or from you know, Detroit, which has its own sound in gospel music, that you're supposed to sing a certain way, supposed to sound a certain way, supposed to look a certain way, so supposed to have a certain style. And I didn't um really have uh, you know, the the kind of voice that kids scream and and belt and do a whole lot of um you know shouting when I s when I when I sang my music um for for the Lord, um I tried that. I tried to shout and scream on Sunday, I would just have laryngitis on Monday. So I knew that that was not that was not healthy, and it left me frustrated. Um and so but this what began this is what began to happen. The Lord began to give me songs, and I ended up signing for Word Records on um and released my first record in the in 1989, 1990. And I began to under to see as I looked out in into the audiences as I would stand on stage, I began to see that the music that the Lord was giving me was not just attracting white people. It wasn't just attracting black people, but it was attracting everybody. And Heather, I would go to places like South Georgia, like you know, south of Macon and or or around the state of Georgia, because that's where ministry began for me, uh uh when I moved south. Uh, there was ministry up in Michigan, but once I got married and met and ministry began to get real serious as I began to travel, and I quit my job as a school teacher and launched in ministry first time, and this became my livelihood, as I began to travel and I looked out into the audiences and I began to see for the first time in some of these uh in some of the cities around Georgia where I was singing, for the first time, black people and white people were worshiping together. And that the music that God was giving me was a magnet for the body of Christ in general.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

And I began to see black people and white people worshiping together in, let's say, you know, First Baptist Church of, you know, pick your town in in South, like like Moultrie or wherever. And um, I began to see that that is where God wanted me. He wanted me in the middle, building a bridge so that the body of Christ could find a place of unity. And that began for me to create another sound, a sound that was uniquely me. And that my music is not uh black music, it's not white music, it's I hope it's just great music.

SPEAKER_03 14:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

And that uh has created you know beautiful songs like you know, all rise and each one reach one, and when you can't trace his hand, trust his heart, and all in favor, and Jesus the one and only, and my songs uh uh The Sea of Forgetfulness. My songs began to be cre uh recorded by you know CC Wynans who who um who recorded Holy Spirit come and fill this place. And it was in the movie Um Deja Vu with with Um Denzel Washington and the Brooklyn Tabernacle began to sing my songs, and uh Helen Baylor recorded um Um The Sea of Forgetfulness, and I just began to see that my music was was reaching an audience that that was literally beyond my wildest dreams and imaginations. And here's the beautiful thing after 42 years in ministry as a full-time vocation, I've been in ministry all my life, but 42 years as a professional singer-songwriter, God is not done with me yet. And this is what I know for sure. There is no expiration date on God's plan for your life. And I I hope that in some way I can be the uh poster child for that message, that you're never too old, you're never too young for God to have his hand on your life, you're never too too old to fulfill his plan and your dream. And uh I just hope and pray that somewhere along the line I can inspire and encourage others to um keep to keep you know pressing on.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

That is amazing. And prayer and good moisturizer doesn't hurt either, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:39

You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_03 15:43

So you've stayed rooted all these years, and I even though the ground kept shifting underneath you, and I I think that's a testimony to your faith and and to your resilience as well. What do you think builds a life that lasts? You know, you were talking about legacy with your parents, and now you're spending that legacy, spreading it to your children. So a life that lasts instead of just one great season, how do you do that?

SPEAKER_00 16:08

I think I took a lot of cues from my parents. Um, they they didn't believe necessarily in well, my father, he he passed when he he was in his early 60s, um, but he was uh approaching retirement. But I think in in our community and in our culture, uh we understand that the Bible didn't talk a whole lot about retirement. And um and when I reached the the the year of retirement, I considered it and talked to the Lord about it. And the Lord said to me that I was not to retire, but I was to retire. And so there's there's always been this um this message in my heart, not to take my my cues uh from culture, um, not to sit down at the age of 40 or not to try to fit into a mold that says, well, once you get to this certain age, you know, you're you're to consider slowing down or or um or s or quitting. Um but as long as I still can, I I think I can still sing pretty well. Um I um le I'm still leading worship, my phone is still ringing, I'm still writing books, I'm still recording songs, I just uh recorded a brand new Christmas project and um just wrote a best-selling book called Each One Reach One. Um and so and so as long as I feel like my ministry is effective and um my ministry is still a blessing and I still love it, and the Lord keeps opening doors for me, uh, then I'm gonna stand on the foundation that was built for me. And I'm going to um, you know, I think there is something so cool about uh a senior person who um, you know, is still making noise, you know, uh a senior person that still has something to say, that's still impacting the world, um, that's that still can communicate the love of Christ and uh uh remind people that you have a purpose and God has a plan for you. And and that's what I want to keep doing. Um I like to say I'm I'm in the youth of my old age. Uh I am early on in this in this uh senior season, um, but I'm loving it. And God keeps making um He keep keeps creating room for me. You know, the Bible says that your gift will make room for you. Well, there's no there's no end to that um to that path, that promise. And and my gifts um are still making room for me. And the beautiful thing is that I keep discovering new and exciting things about my gifts and talents. And as long as I stay excited and I know that my calling is until I breathe my laugh, my last, and then I get to graduate with honors, I'm gonna keep on doing this.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

Oh, yeah, God's just still getting started with you, girl. He's just getting started. Amen. I received that. So, what's one thing from the old school church world that you genuinely miss in this modern day of CCM and the way that we do uh Christian? What's the an old school church thing you miss?

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Yeah, you know what? I I uh I I dearly miss um old school music. And uh it's interesting that you would ask that question because uh I am considering, okay, now I'm putting this out there, uh, and hopefully I can follow up with this, but I'm gonna say this uh just kind of as a way to plant a seed. When when I grew up in my daddy's church, we sang old school music. Uh a lot of that, those old songs, you know, from from my childhood that were created by the um the artists and singers and the and the church of the season when I was a kid, a lot of it is um not even written down. It's it's it's uh oral tradition of those old black gospel songs uh that we would sing during the devotion. Like um, can can I sing something? Sure, go for it, girl.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Oh okay, okay, something like um, Will, I thank you, Jesus, I thank you, Jesus, I thank you, Jesus, I thank you, Lord. Oh, you brought me this, you brought me from a body, a body homeway, a body homeway. Thank you, Jesus, I thank you, Jesus, I thank you, Jesus, I thank you, Lord. You brought me this, you brought me home I I won't mind.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Um some of those great hymns like what if we have Jesus at the cross and uh songs from an older black church, and I have this stream that I'm praying on right now to do a recording of and just keep those songs alive. Listen, now no disrespect to contemporary music. I write contemporary music, I write contemporary worship songs, I lead worship in a in in a church and lead worship most on most Sunday mornings singing contemporary worship songs. And I I love it. I write and record those kind of songs, but I don't ever want to forget my roots, and I don't ever want to forget that tradition that that brought me that that is the foundation on which I stand. And that and the music from the traditional black church, predominantly the traditional black Baptist church, is beautiful music, and oh, it's it's what we call soul stirring. Music.

unknown 22:00

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Yeah, and it's and it's uh songs that that if I'm if I'm going through something, those are the songs that I pull pull on. Uh when my children were little and they were sick and I was rapping them, you know, through the in the middle of the night, those were the songs that I sang. When I'm driving on a long distance road trip and I want to keep myself alert, those are the songs I pull on. Those are the songs that stir up my spirit and keep me encouraged and the songs that are part of my traditional personal worship. And I want to do my best to keep those songs alive. So I'm thinking about doing a recording just so that I can do my part of prolonging that tradition.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

Well, from your lips to to actual making it happen, girl. I I I'd buy that one in a heartbeat. I'm all about that. I grew up in the in the deep south myself, and I grew up on all that kind of music because my dad was a Baptist minister and we grew up Baptist and you know, the hymns Because He Lives and Precious Lord, Take My Hand, and Um What a Friend We Have in Jesus. You know, all of that's just so scriptural based. You know, that's what that's why they call it gospel, you know, and so um that's what we have to remember.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Every one of those hymns was uh it was they were sermons. They were, they were, they were three-minute sermons. And the lyrics, sometimes I have uh uh just a tradition of my own personal devotion of sitting at the piano and turning to a hymn, um, sometimes just sight reading a hymn and and practicing a devotion by just sitting at the piano and singing a beautiful hymn as a as a devotional practice because it's uh something uh they're they're doctrinally strong and they're scripturally sound and they're melodically and lyrically beautiful, and uh there's a rich, rich, rich heritage there that I never want to lose.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Absolutely. So let's talk about the songs themselves, not just songwriting in general, the actual songs. I have to say, I have so many favorite Babby Mason songs. And uh as a young singer, I remember getting every new cut set. Boy, did I just date myself a couple of minutes ago? Specifically talk about all rides. And I wanted to share this with you. I have a very specific memory attached to that song. I was about 12 or 13 years old and I thought it was a church that you were performing at. It was my first time ever seeing you perform. And when the final four of all rise, because the whole one of the five of the kids in the room, people didn't just respond emotionally, they physically stood. And as a young kid, you're gonna cry, but it impacted me, like to the point that I remember how I exactly felt in that moment. Not in it, they didn't stand because they were told to. It's the song left them no other choice. And I have never forgotten that moment. Uh, it impacted me, and I know the story behind it, and I know that it came out of a moment of personal disappointment, but I want you to tell our listeners about that song.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Back in 19 uh, I uh I quit my job as a school teacher. Uh, the Lord just began to open up doors for me to sing. Uh, first, you know, uh in Marietta, Georgia, where we used to live. Um, I'd sing in my local church, and then I'd get invited to sing at another church in the area, and then I got invited to sing across the state, and then across the region, then across the United States, and then across the world, as the Bible says, you know, first at home and then in uh Judea and Samaria and the uttermost parts of the world. That is the story of my life. Um, and I quit my job in night in 1984, and um that summer of 1984, I went to the Christian artists' music seminar in the Rockies. My husband, Charles, and my friend, my songwriting buddy, Donna Douglas, Donna Douglas Wapley now. The three of us went out to Colorado, and uh Donna and I were co-writing at the time, and she entered a song into the comp the songwriting competition. I entered a song in the songwriting competition, and they had this big uh intimidating uh panel of adjudicators and judges. And uh the song that I had entered that year was uh I thought it was a good song, but they said that uh Babby, you you just you need to go back home and work a little harder. And I was disappointed that I didn't win in the songwriting uh category, but I also competed in the vocal uh competition and came in third place. And uh I was disappointed that I came in third place. You know, they they talk about you know being a big fish in a little pond. Well, I was a big fish in a little pond, but I realized when I got out there I was a little fish in a big pond. And I and I realized that I had to go home and do some more work. And so, but I sat in on a songwriting uh workshop that that summer at that competition and realized that maybe that there was something there. And I realized that songwriting is a craft and it's a learned craft and it's it's a craft that is developed. I went back home and and just got real disciplined in writing songs. And the very first song that I wrote after attending that competition um in 1984 was All Rise. And I think I was impacted by the whole judging uh adjudication process, and and um I came home to realize that one day we will stand in the presence of the Supreme Judge. The book of the Revelation, chapter 7, verses 9 through 12, talks about the elders and the saints of every nation, tribe, people, and language standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb, and they stand and they um and then they fall down on their faces before the throne and they worship him. And I had this mental picture, and I was walking through my house one day, just two weeks after the conference, and it was like the Holy Spirit served this song on a silver platter. I sat down and within five or six minutes had written the song All Rise, and I showed it to our music minister, and he knew that the song had potential. And a few months later, the choir and I at Eastside Baptist Church in Marietta, Georgia, were singing at a uh um an evangelism conference at Rosal Street Baptist Church in the in the February of 85, and we sang All Rise that night, and the Holy Spirit moved in such an unusual way. We sang All Rise. This was the first time that the song had been publicly performed outside of our home church at Eastside with the full orchestra and the full choir, and I was standing in the front singing the solo. We sang the song, and at the end of the first time we sang it, there was a standing ovation and this applause and applause and applause, which was very unusual in a white Baptist church. We sang the song again, and at the end of the second time, there was this eruption of praise and worship that was undeniable that the Spirit of God was in the room. And I mean an unusual demonstration of the Holy Spirit. I remember seeing a a white preacher, a white brother who I later learned was a young preacher, he did laps around the sanctuary. Oh, wow. Another uh brother threw his Bible up in the air and just shouted praises to God and caught it. And there was, there was just this uh amazing display of worship. So we sang it again. And uh then as the service went on, at the end of the service, we sang it one more time as the benediction for the service tonight that night. The song was sung four times during the course of the worship service. Well, that that was long before the internet was ever uh a thing, but it the service was videotaped, and that videotape began to organically make its way across the um um the church, and my phone began to ring and people wanted me to come and sing all rise, and that was basically the kind of the fire under underneath this ministry. Well, I went back to Esther's Park that year, that summer of '85 and uh entered all rise in the competition and it won first place.

SPEAKER_02 30:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

And I also entered into the vocal competition and won first place, and that began to get the attention of um the gatekeepers of the industry. And I started writing songs and ended up uh um signing uh uh as a as a recording artist on the Word Records label and started writing music. And so the songs, you know, that you're basically uh that you basically know of my um you know, my songwriting and recording, uh like uh with all my heart and all in favor and each one or each one. And when you can't trace his hand to his heart and standing in the gap and all rise, and he'll find a way, and yeah, you know, all of those great songs um and you know, that they came out of that season. And I'm still writing and recording and writing books, and one thing has always led to another. I think that's been my theme song is that one thing has always led to another. I I never aspired to be an author. I never aspired to be a speaker or a Bible study teacher. I never aspired really to be a songwriter. That that gift just kind of uh um just was that seed was planted at Esther's Park at that at the Christian Artists Music Seminar in the Rockies. Um and so this is just a it's a testament, first of all, giving glory and honor to God, but it's also an encouragement to all of us that we have gifts and talents and potential that that are lying dormant, and all it takes is just the the water and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the encouragement of others to bring something like that, like songwriting and speaking and writing books to life. And it it still excites me to this day, knowing that I still have gifts and talents that are that are unexplored. And that I think that is what keeps me excited about ministry is that I'm not afraid to explore something new. I'm not afraid to try something new and exciting. And God has just given me that that zeal for and that excitement for um innovation and uh doing something new and exciting because first of all, I want to make him look good. Uh I I as I teach uh and train and mentor, I always talk about this threefold chord um that that helps you understand that where God is taking you is a part of his plan. And that is number one, we always want to give glory and honor to God. Number two, we want to find joy in what we do, and we also want to encourage others. And if you can get, if somebody can tell you, yes, your music blessed me, or what your book blessed me. And if I can find joy in what I do, and I can give glory and honor to God, that is a big indication that I am on the right road.

SPEAKER_03 33:15

That's amazing. Well, I want to tell you something else that I'm not sure you fully knew because we've had a lot of history together. But about 14 years ago, after my mom passed, I took a college-level songwriting class for me over at Atlanta Christian College. And it ended up being deeply beneficial in my grieving journey. And I don't think I told you that before, and I wanted you to know not because it was therapy, but because songwriting gave me a way to say things I couldn't quite say any other way. And I don't know that you could have known at the time how meaningful our time was together for me, but it was. And I've thought about that over the years because I've always been a songwriter, and it's a reminder that songwriting is not just craft. Sometimes it is survival. And sometimes it's how people tell the truth when they can't find the words any other way. And you teach songwriting, especially to people who are carrying something heavy that you might not even know about. And what do you believe music can do that maybe an ordinary conversation sometimes can't?

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Well, first of all, Heather, I remember having you as a student at Atlanta Christian College. That was my first um, my my first post as an adjunct professor and in teaching songwriting was at Atlanta Christian College. And uh that was an open, that was a season where the Lord began to stir. I've always been a teacher. I taught middle high school music for a lot of years, and so I love the classroom and I love sharing what I think I know about music and songwriting, but to teach at the college level was uh that stirred up a whole new level of excitement for me as far as teaching the craft of songwriting. And so today I have taught at Liberty Univers, well, Atlanta Christian College is a church of Christ. A Christian church denomination. Christian Church. I taught at Liberty University, which is Southern Baptist. I teach at Spring Arbor University currently, which is Free Methodist. I teach at Treveca Nazarene University. I've taught at LaGrange College, which is United Methodist. So I I I see the Lord here again just helping me to be all things to all people that I might win some. And I just thank the Lord that I had the opportunity, Heather, to have and influence writers like you, um, and to help stir up that gift and that love for songwriting. And I think when it comes to music, I've often thought about how miraculous the power of music is and how what was God doing when he created music? Um, how in the world can millions of songs be written from 13 half steps on a on a musical scale? And how can he continue to whisper a lyric and a melody into my heart to continue to write songs that give him glory? It's it's uh and how can a song be a lifeline? And a s how can a song introduce hope in the middle of uh desperation? Or how can a song get you up on your feet and and make you want to do the as I would say, you know, the electric slide or the funky chicken, you know? What is it about a song that just stirs up something on the inside of you that can bring you so much joy or give you hope? Only God can do that. Only God can do that. Uh, whether it's uh, you know, regardless, and think about all the genres that are created around music, all the styles from uh uh classical music, you know, with um Andre um Piccelli. Oh my oh my gosh, what what a what a voice. Or um Aretha, you know, who's who's my queen, or Danny Bell Hall, or Andre Crouch, or or Carol King, or uh Taylor Swift. I mean, think about you know, country and classical music and gospel music and pop music and all these different genres that produce such beautiful music from 13 and a half steps, 13 half steps on a musical scale. Um, it's just it's just amazing. And the fact that I get to participate in that uh is I think a miracle. And there there are songs that that I've written um that I get I get mail or or email um concerning those songs. Um for instance, there is a song called He'll Find a Way. Now, Donna Douglas wrote the song He'll Find a Way. I was um Donna and I were uh and still write very, very closely, but at the time Donna and I, uh my family and and Donna were living just two miles apart, and this was during the season where we were living in Marietta, Georgia, and uh Donna and I were writing pretty much every day. And so I was the first person to hear her song, He'll Find a Way, and the first person to sing it, and the first person to record it. So I kind of feel like, even though I didn't write the song, I kind of feel like I'm the song's godmother, okay? Um, so I recorded the song on one of my albums back in the 80s. And I sang the song one evening at um for the Moody Broadcasting Friday Night Sing. Uh Moody Broadcasting used to have these concerts on Friday night. They may they may still do, but I used to go and sing in Chicago for these live concerts that they would host on Friday nights, and these concerts would be broadcast live all across their affiliate stations. And so one Friday night I was singing and I sang the song He'll Find a Way. And this was back long before email. So uh a week or so later, I got a letter from a dear lady who was listening to that concert. In fact, she was she was not a uh a person who listened to Christian music. She was in her car, and Heather, she was desperate, and she was considering ending her life that night. She was in her car with a loaded weapon in her car. She was headed for a um, she was headed for a a lake in the area where she lived and decided that she was going to end her life. On her way to wherever it was, wherever this lake was, she pressed the scan button on the radio in her car. And this and uh the scan button landed on the concert, the live concert that I was record was was leading that night at the Moody Church in Chicago. And she heard the song, He'll Find a Way, as I was singing it. And the chorus says, Uh, I'll I'll sing it for you.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Or I know that if he can pay the sunset and put the stars in place, I know if he can raise up mountains and call on the storm tossed waves, and if he can conquer death forever, you open heaven's gate, and I know for you, I know for you, he'll find a way.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

And she sat on the shore of this lake where she was, and she heard those words of that song, and that song gave her hope. She got out of the car with a loaded gun in her hand, she heaved the loaded weapon into the lake, and got into the car and prayed a prayer of desperation. God gave her a lifeline that night. She wrote to tell me about it and how the song, He'll Find a Way, um, ministered to her and was a um a conduit, you know, to give her a to whisper her a second chance at life and to look look to God and look to Jesus, um, who is the author and finisher of our faith. And um when when you get responses like that to your music, uh it's number one, it's it's hugely humbling. It it it makes it causes me to drop to my knees. Um and just it almost takes the breath out of me to know that um how how somebody can reach out to God during a song. Um, and then the second thing is it when I write a song, it's one thing for me to sing it, but when I hear something that I wrote or something that I sing, and I hear those words coming out of somebody else's mouth, uh it here again, it it is so humbling. And it also reminds me of the great responsibility of the words that we write. Um, it reminds me of the psalm that says, Let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer. And that is my prayers. God, please let the words that I write, let the songs that I sing, let the lyrics that I speak, let the songs that and the lyrics of these songs and the words that I say between the songs when I'm on stage, and the words that I that I write that I pin in my books, you know, first of all, let them be true and let them be truth, and let them bring bring glory and honor to you, and let them be an encouragement to others, and let me be, help me God to be responsible and integral, um, and have the utmost uh honor and integrity when I when I write, because I only want to make God look good and encourage others. And it's such a this journey that I'm on is is such an exciting journey because there's usually something new and exciting that happens on a regular basis. And um, that is what it's like throwing my mother is from the south. And I think it was her responsibility to build a fire every day in their fireplace in their home. Because she had this thing where she would build a fire, but she would take a big log, which she called a backlog, and she would put this big backlog in the back of the fireplace. And that way in the morning there would be embers that would have burned through the night that would be in that backlog. And you wouldn't have to start that fire from scratch. You could just blow on those embers and would and get a piece of kindling or a piece of paper, blow on those embers, and that fire would ignite. And that's that's what I want to do with my with the spirit of God that is in me. Um there's there's there's an inferno, but underneath that inferno is a big backlog of embers that that keeps me renewed and restored and rejuvenated and my faith on fire and this fury, this passion to uh give give God my best and give him my all because I know that for me it's my life, it's my livelihood, but it's also my lifeline and an encouragement to others. And I never ever want to take that for granted.

SPEAKER_03 45:13

Sure. Well, you have definitely made a difference in my life, sweetie.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

I'm so grateful to hear that, Heather. And uh thank you for reminding me of that and for uh the this long, long, long um, that was a lot of years ago. Um it was a lot of years ago, and we're still here and we still have an assignment. God's hand is still on your life, and look what God is doing with you. And I'm just so grateful that somewhere along the line, um, I was able to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_03 45:42

Oh, thank you. So your most recent work around each one, reach one really interests me. Can you tell us about that?

SPEAKER_00 45:51

Yeah. Uh in fact, I have a copy of the book right here. Each one. Yeah, each one, reach one, everyday ways you can shine God's light. Um, I wrote the book um a couple of years ago. It's uh USA Today bestseller, and I'm just so excited about its message. Um, I wrote the book because I want to inspire believers, um, every believer, to know that every believer is that you are an evangelist. The book is written around um the Great Commission, um, and around um Matthew chapter 5, verses 14 through 17. I call it the Great Mandate. It's a red letter passage, the words of Jesus, and he reminded the multitude that day, and he is reminding us today that um you are like a well, the passage says um that you are a city up on a hill, and you're not to put your light in a basket. You are you are the light of the world, you are the salt of the earth, you're like a city that is on a hill, and you're not to put your light in a basket, but on a lampstand where you can give light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your father in heaven. And I believe that lamp on a lampstand that gives light to your house, to all who are in your house, I believe is your sphere of influence. And every believer has a sphere of influence. You may not think that your light can do much, but think about all different kinds of light from a uh a small flashlight or a or a pen pin light, or a a light on your uh side table in your in your office or on your living room, or a uh uh recess lighting in in your ceiling, or a headlamp in your car, or the dome light in your car, or street lamp, or a neon sign. Uh I mean or or uh I mean think of all the kinds of light that exist. And in comparison, every believer is shining some kind of light, whether it's in your home or your classroom or the grocery store or the um the produce department. I think beyond a shadow of a doubt, I know that the grocery store is my mission field. It's one of my mission fields. And pretty much the produce department. If whenever I go to the produce department or over there where the uh rotisserie chickens are, because that's where a lot of people congregate, is around the rotisserie chicken or uh around the produce department. I went in or or the checkout line. Uh I'll give you kind of a um a quick story. I was um in um we live in rural Georgia, rural Georgia, and we have a Piggly Wiggly in the in the town where we live. The Pigley Wiggly grocery store is not just for driving Miss Daisy, it's a real chain of grocery stores. And um, I was in the line waiting to be uh to have my groceries um, you know, for the clerk to wait on me. And there was a gentleman ahead of me who was uh in the line, and he was uh the church, the clerk was checking out his his order. And uh there was a song on the the the loudspeaker in the grocery store, and it was Neil Diamond um singing Sweet Caroline. And I promise you, Heather, I was not singing, I I wasn't trying to, you know, attract attention, but I was just enjoying the music. And yeah, you can't help it on that song, right? You can't help it, you can't help it. I am just humming to myself. I'm not humming very loudly, just kind of in you know, in line, just sweet and relax, good times never seem so good, so good, so good. So you know, just having me and Neil just having a moment, you know. And and the guy ahead of me turns around and he says, Wow, that sounds pretty good. You should consider singing for a living.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

And I said, Well, I I do sing for a living. He says, You do. I said, Yeah. He says, Well, sing something for me right now.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

Oh my I said, Well, that's like saying stick them to a bulldog. I said, I can do that, I can easily do that. So I pushed my card up a little closer to the gentleman in order to, you know, kind of close in our proximity and began to sing a little bit of Amazing Grace. Well, all of a sudden, Heather, the music in the store turned off, and the the manager of the store, who was up there in the in that little front office cubby, uh in the little office up there in the front of the store, he came out of his little cubby office. He came down to the checkout lane where I was standing, and he lifted his head and lifted his hands and began to worship. Oh my heaven. And when I saw him standing there worshiping Jesus while I was singing, well, I turned it on a little bit louder, and the next thing I know, people began to gather around that checkout lane. And they began to, some of them lifted their hands and began to worship Jesus. And the more the crowd gathered, there are five verses to Amazing Grace, and I sang all five verses, plus praise God, praise God, praise God, praise God. I mean, the more I sang, the more people began to gather. Finally, I ended on a big note, and you know, with all the nuances that we would sing in the Black Baptist Church when we sing Amazing Grace. And when I was done, there was this loud celebration of praise and thanksgiving to Jesus right there in the checkout lane in the piggly wiggly. And when I was finished, that gentleman turned around and he said, My goodness, woman, who are you? Oh my goodness. Did you tell him? I did. I said, Well, my name is Abby Mason. I happen to be a gospel singer, and and we just um, you know, had a quick conversation as people kind of dispersed and went back there to their daily tasks, whatever they were doing. But I realized that he and I were neighbors. But as he he left, and the the clerk said, you know, Amazing Grace is my grandmother's favorite song. This is this is what I know, um, Heather, is that sharing the gospel sometimes we make it too too complicated, too complex, too difficult. Right. When sharing the gospel is just as easy as a conversation that is that is driven by concern and compassion for a friend or a neighbor.

SPEAKER_03 52:39

Yeah, but I think people worry, you know, they think they're gonna be too uh preachy or they're gonna be rejected. And I think that scares off a lot of your typical churchgoers from sharing the sharing their faith.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

Uh-huh. Well, let me tell you how the Lord just as I as I prayed, because the book was inspired by a prayer, by my prayer as I as I was approaching my 50th year of walking with the Lord, I said, Lord, I I want my I want my my faith to be real. Will you help me to be a better witness? Help me to uh you know to walk out Matthew chapter 5, verse 16 as a lifestyle. And he began to allow me through conversations, through listening, through concern, through compassion, uh, for others to share my faith. And like what happened in the Piggly Wiggly grocery store, um, the clerk said that Amazing Grace was her grandmother's favorite hymn. Well, I I I noticed that on the end of an act of kindness, people use their hearts usually are tenderized, and they begin to share their their heart. And when they do, I listen and I can share my faith. And that is exactly what happened. The young ladies, after I sang Amazing Grace in her checkout lane, she said Amazing Grace was her grandmother's favorite song. And I said, Oh, it is. How is your grandmother today? Oh, nice. And she said that she said that her grandmother was at home, she was not doing well, she was fighting cancer, in fact. I said, Oh, how is your grandmother's um fight with cancer? She says, Well, she has good days and she has bad days. I said, Well, do you mind if I pray for your grandmother? I've done this on a number of occasions, and Heather, not one time has anybody ever refused prayer. They've always said, they've always been almost desperate. Please, please pray for me. Please, and this young lady said, Yes, please pray for my grandmother. Listen, I didn't pray the whole Bible. Okay. I just prayed a short, kind-hearted, warm-hearted, compassionate prayer to Jesus. And um, I said, Um, she, when I started to pray, that young lady stopped what she was doing and stood right there as still as she could be, because we knew that we were in the presence of God. I prayed for her, prayed for her grandmother. And at the end of my prayer, I could tell that she had was moved by the Holy Spirit. She brushed tears away from her eyes as I did mine. She reached out and gave me a hug across the checkout lane. And when I gathered my things, I was headed towards the door when a young young lady stopped me and she said, I heard you sing and I saw you pray. Would you pray for my husband who's not walking with the Lord? And I prayed for her husband right there near the exit of the Piggly Wiggly uh front door. Prayed for her. And I went to my car and there was a young lady with three babies in her cart, and she said, I I I heard you sing in the store and I saw you pray. Will you pray for me and my family? My husband just deserted us and left me with three babies to raise by myself. I prayed for that young lady, and and listen, you you got sometimes you gotta, you know, your walk talks and your talk talks, but some days your your walk has got to talk louder than you talk.

SPEAKER_03 55:56

Well, and the Pigley Weekly was a whole different place that day, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 56:00

Yes. And I reached in my purse and I gave her a little piece of money that I had in my purse so she could go in her into the store and buy her baby some milk and some bread. And I and I sat in my car and I just wept, knowing that God was answering that prayer, and he was giving me a simple way to share my faith, and that is by listening and by being compassionate and praying for people and meeting people's needs and being the hands and the feet of Jesus and not just preaching at people, but loving people to Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 56:35

That's amazing. Well, that piggly wiggly is very blessed, let me tell you.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

And and the book, Each One or Each One, is filled, uh, this book is it's full, full of great stories of how the Lord began to answer that prayer. It's also a Bible study with uh a QR code that opens up all of the videotaped Bible studies that I teach during the course of the book. Um, and it's a great small group Bible study. It's available, you know, online. It's available at my website at babby.com, B-A-B-B-I-E, Babby.com. Uh it's available there as well as wherever great books are sold.

SPEAKER_03 57:11

That's awesome. So it you know, it just kind of ties everything together. A song reaches, testimony reaches, a conversation reaches, a life reaches. It's just part of one big assignment, and I love that. So Babby, so Babby, let's uh we always do a quick fire section on our show. And so no, no overthinking, no pageant answers, just you know, whatever you think right at the, you know, right off the cuff, okay? So a church phrase you have heard enough for one lifetime.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Oh, without a doubt, my daddy's favorite quote is gotta be your partner, make your plans larger.

SPEAKER_03 57:49

Best snack for a late night writing session.

SPEAKER_00 57:53

Oh, no doubt. Peanut butter of uh uh apple, a honey crisp apple with chunky peanut butter.

SPEAKER_03 57:59

All right, my kind of girl. One fashion moment from your early career that needs to stay in the past where it belongs.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

Oh, girl, have a piece of hair for every concert.

SPEAKER_03 58:13

Oh my lord. I thought you were gonna say shoulder pads, but you know, well, that too.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

Uh but yeah, I love my hair. I love my hair. And it's uh sometimes on a day of desperation, you gotta have a gotta have a some spare hair.

SPEAKER_03 58:27

All right. A song you didn't write, but wish you had, secular or Christian.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

Oh, R E S P T T.

unknown 58:35

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

Thank you, Otis Redding. Yeah, um, yeah, probably respect.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

You know, my band director, um, I interviewed him on a couple of episodes ago and he played with Otis Redding.

SPEAKER_00 58:46

So Oh, wow, what a what a gift.

SPEAKER_03 58:49

He did uh he also played with Percy Sledge and Benny King. It is just amazing. You speak in my language. I know. Uh something younger artists get wrong. Identity. Um elaborate.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

Yeah. Well, be yourself, everyone else has taken. And there's only one you. God made you unique on purpose. You're you're not um you're not a mistake, you're not an afterthought. God has given you a gift. Figure it out early. And um, as I said before, don't try to blend in, stand out so you can make God look good.

SPEAKER_03 59:29

That's awesome. So uh two more. What is more dangerous, church ladies with concerns or music industry people with a vision?

SPEAKER_00 59:39

Oh, ah, that's a dichotomy right there. Two different ends of the spectrum. Um I could say in a in a good way, music industry people with a vision. Because if you have a vision, if you can see where God is taking you, if you even if you have a seed of a dream, you can do great things for the kingdom of God.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:00

And last one, a word for someone who thinks they have started too late.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

Oh, you're never too late. Take it from this girl. I am 69.95 plus tax shipping and handling, and I still believe that my best and brightest days are ahead of me.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:16

Well, Babby, this has been such a gift to have you as a guest on the show. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

Thank you, sweet Heather. It's always so good to see you. And I have enjoyed this conversation today with all my heart.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:30

Well, thank you for the songs, thank you for the wisdom, thank you for the generosity that lives behind all of it, and thank you for reminding us that a meaningful life is not built on one flashy season. It's built over time with faithfulness, with truth, with an open door and a willingness to listen and to teach what you know. Thank you, Baby.