Episode 14: The Suicide She Wouldn’t Let Him Stop - The Michelle Carter and Conrad Roy Case

Michelle Carter and Conrad Roy’s case is one of the most disturbing we’ve covered.

It is about a teenage girl convincing her boyfriend to kill himself. But not just that. According to what Michelle later told a friend, when Conrad got scared and tried to back out, she told him to get back in.

This episode looks at the texts, the pressure, the promise, and the messages Michelle sent to friends before Conrad was even dead. The central question: was this just encouragement, or was it intervention against the part of him that was still trying to live?

This episode discusses suicide and coercive text messages. Listener discretion is advised.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

This is one of the most disturbing and messed up cases we have ever talked about. It's about a teenage girl convincing her boyfriend to kill himself. And not just failing to stop him. No, that would be too easy. When he got scared and tried to back out, she told him to keep going. And the more you look at the details, the worse it gets. This is the case of Michelle Carter and Conrad Royal. Welcome back to uh Tell Me the Crime, episode 14.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

14 today.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Oh man, yeah, that means 14 weeks that we've been doing this. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

So three and a half months.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

A long, long time, but we love it. Uh this fun stuff. Actually, today's episode is probably one of the craziest cases I've ever covered.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

You seem so prepared today.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

I'm prepared for it because I kept looking at everything that was going on, and it was it's just so disturbing.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Is it a recent one?

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Yeah, it's fairly recent. Yeah, it's recent. I think it was in uh was it 2022? Something like that. Maybe it was no, no, no, it wasn't 2022. This like started in 2012, and I think, yeah, 14 years ago. Yeah, a long time ago. But um, so this case though is really, really messed up.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

So you gotta tell us the title.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Okay. Well, the title of the case is um what did I call this one? Hold on one sec. Let me find my my episode sheet here. Okay, so the suicide she wouldn't let him stop. The Michelle Carter and Conrad Roy case.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Yeah, that sounds really kind of uh kind of crazy, right? Like what the hell are you talking about? The you know, the suicide he wouldn't she wouldn't let him stop.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Well, she decided already.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yeah, I know, but yeah, but she's not the one doing it, right? So, I mean, but she is. Okay, so I'm gonna start from uh the beginning of this, but uh to give you context first, um it's about a teenage girl, right, who convinces her boyfriend to kill himself.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

No.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

That's why I said she decided she wouldn't let him stop. Um she was 17 at the time, and he was 18.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Okay, very young.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

And this is not about just her failing to stop him from suicide. He actually got scared at one point and tried to back out, but she told him to keep going. Yeah, so the more you look at the details here, the worse it gets. And there are moments where it looks like his death had kind of become like a part of this story that she was already telling before it even happened, right? It was it was just this, it's just weird, and it you it just makes you question humanity. It's really messed up.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Okay, so tell us about those Michelle Carter and Conrad Roy.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Conrad Roy is the victim. Okay, so again, I'm gonna start from the beginning here. Um, because the final detail in this case, it only really makes sense once you understand like the whole pattern. Okay. So the simple version of this case, if you know, I just gave you a very quick synopsis, you might say something like, Michelle Carter sent awful messages to Conrad Roy before he died by suicide, right? But that's a super simple version and doesn't actually explain what really happened in the case. Because it wasn't just one text, it was uh not just one bad moment. It was more of a relationship that mostly happened through phones. It was a young man who had been struggling for a very long time, and it was a girl who at one point seemed to be trying to help him. So that's where things get a little bit confusing because it starts out, you know, at first. Then in the end, she's convincing him to kill himself, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

So that's a very complicated introduction for this story.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

I know, right? So you're just thinking, like, how do you go from um, you know, you need help, let's get you some help to well, I help you, and then I wouldn't, yeah, but like it gets to the point of like, why haven't you killed yourself yet?

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Huh.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

It's just it's really, yeah, it's really messed up. So like I I guess like, you know, how do you move from that one point to another like that? Like from like I'm trying to help someone. I don't care how deranged a relationship is. Never, never, ever try to tell someone to kill themselves. It's just not cool. No, it's not. Anyway, um okay, so who they were, Michelle Carter was 17, like I said, Conrad was 18. So they were pretty young, and they first met in Florida in 2012. Okay, so it was a while back. Um, so they were both uh visiting relatives, and I I don't know exactly who the relatives were, but they were visiting family members, both of them. Um and so you know, their their relationship was mostly through text and through phone calls.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

So they had long-distance relationships?

SPEAKER_02 5:45

They had a a long-distance relationship for after they met in Florida. After they met in Florida. So they went back home and they actually lived pretty close together. I think they were only about like 30 miles apart from each other, but Oh, that's not far. Right. But yeah, which is what I thought too, because at first I thought it was really far as well, because they said like the relationship was mostly, you know, through text and over the phone. But apparently they were they were both in Massachusetts, and so and about like 35 miles or 30 miles or something like that from each other. Um, but again, yeah, but you know, they're young kids, right? They're they're both teenagers. So um but the phone is where everything really happened. I think they only met like five times. So, okay. Um, so Michelle was not physically there when this whole thing happened, when he actually ended up committing suicide, right? She was not physically with him, but psychologically, um you know, uh she was the one that pushed him over the edge.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

No. Okay. How long were they in relationship?

SPEAKER_02 6:57

Um, they were in a relationship for I think two years. Because I think this happened in 2014.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

I'd have to confirm.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Okay, or one or two, don't take my word on that.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Yeah, don't take my word on that, but I think it was something like two years, but um, you know, it was it was long distance for the most long, quote unquote. Okay, so before getting into the texts that were actually sent and the conversations that they had, I want to just give you enough about the family context because it kind of matters later. Okay. So Conrad, well, it matters a lot. Conrad was um someone with um, you know, he wasn't someone that didn't have anyone around him. He did have family, right? He did have his mother, uh, his father, um, he had sisters, and he had grandparents, great-grandmother, and he even worked with his father and his grandfather, um, and even his uncle in um some business, right? Some marine towing and salvage business. So family clearly mattered. Um, there were some some issues in the family, some allegations of abuse and stuff like that. Um, but I'm you know, but at the same time, it was clear that family was an important part of his life. Okay. So um that's a little bit about his family. Okay. Now, Conrad was someone who was depressed, right? He had he struggled with depression, anxiety. Um and he he really did struggle pretty severely with mental health, right? So he struggled quite a bit with that. Um, so it didn't just come out of nowhere, this suicide attempt, right? In fact, he had had um several attempts at suicide in the past.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Before he met the girl.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Before he met the yes. Um, but in particular, between uh October 2012 and July 2014, when this whole thing happened, um he had uh suicide attempts during that period. Okay, so um I'm not gonna go into detail about them, but you know, there were certain things that he did um involving um you know overdoses on drugs and um drowning and and things like that. So he he did attempt a few times, but there was a pattern to his attempts though. Okay, it wasn't just I want to die, right? And end of story there. It was more about getting close to death than stopping or letting someone help. So a lot of times, like he would back out at the last second, right? So he would, you know, attempt it, and then at the last second, when things got really real, he would either reach out for help or he would abandon the you know the attempt, right? So so it was clear that you know death scared him and that he, you know, he he wanted to get help, but he didn't, so he kept going back and forth with this. So there was this sort of theme of like ambivalence around the topic, right? He didn't really know what to do, right? He was he was going back and forth quite a bit because he was obviously in pain, strong struggling with mental health. Um okay, so uh Michelle initially, like I said, pushed to get help for him, and that kind of complicates things because of this entire case, right? Because the case is based around her pushing him to suicide, right? But initially she encouraged him to get professional help. Um, and she struggled with mental health as well, right? So she also had an eating disorder, and she struggled with anxiety and depression as well. And she was actually planning to go to McLean Hospital for treatment for that eating disorder. And she even suggested that Conrad go too so professionals could help him with his depression and so they could support each other. Okay. So she knew help was certainly an option. She even said it herself, right? And you know, that matters later because it kind of um shifts the tone shifts a little bit later, right? Because that's not at all what she did later when you know there was obviously those options. Um okay. So the tone changes, right? So Conrad um initially resists help. Okay, so he, you know, she suggests the help, he resists it initially. But over time, um, the tone of these messages shifts, right? And this is where I think we need to actually hear some of the text because it's one of the things, you know, it's one of those things to say she pressured him, but then to actually hear what was said gives you a little bit more context for the situation and to see what it sounded like, right? So as Conrad was researching suicide and telling Michelle what he was thinking, she started getting involved in the planning. And the court says that she helped discuss how, where, and when it would happen.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

Yeah, exactly. Um, so we'll actually get into these specific texts. At one point, even when discussing carbon monoxide, she tells him, in her opinion, a generator would work because with that he can't fail, quote unquote. Right. So just think about that part for one second, right? It's not I'm scared for you, it's hey, if you do it this way, you're guaranteed results.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

I'm confused about like how the uh how did the shift happen?

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Well, that's part of that's part of the question that we have to think about, right? Like what is their dynamic? What's the motive? Yeah. Then there's a lot of you know speculation and thoughts about this, but one idea is that their whole dynamic was really based on kind of like this trauma bonding, right? Yeah. It's like a shared emotional experience, someone that they could vent to about their problems, um, talk about suicide, talk about depression. But at some point, uh at least some people think that maybe this shifted to like a narrative of like um of death, right? And of darkness, right? Because you're talking so much about suicide and you're talking about death, and you're talking about wanting to do it. And eventually, maybe that became like an important part of their dynamic, right? It became a part of like what they always talked about and what they relied on. And you know, it's things like this though that shift slowly over time. So, like you I think I've told told you about like if in psychology they sometimes talk about the foot in the door phenomenon where you do a small little ask of someone, like put this sticker on your window, because you know you know, and then and then over time, yeah, you'll you'll put a bigger sign later, ask them for that, and then they're like, Well, I already put this sticker on, so I'll put this, you know, poster on. And then, well, I already put this poster on. Maybe I'll even put this big sign that you ask them to put on on their front lawn for like political reasons or something. But if you were to just straight up ask them to put this big sign on their lawn, they wouldn't do it, right? So there's things like that where things gradually shift over time. It's easier to shift upward by a little bit once you've already gone a certain amount. And so I'm thinking like that, you know, that could be something to do with it as well, right? Maybe they'd been discussing these things so much that it was just easier to push it there. But I don't know. This is uh to me, I just think this case is really fascinating because I it's so dark.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Now, what about like the family? Um the family. Did his did his yeah, did his family know about his depression?

SPEAKER_02 15:52

They knew he was depressed, yes. So they did know about the suicide attempts. Um his friends knew about them, his family knew about them, and this is actually a really important point because his family was worried about him. Okay, and he was even worried about how his family would react if he actually went through with it. And this is part of the really dark part, is that Michelle convinced him not to worry about his family because he was his family's reaction if he did that. If he did it, he was like, Oh, I'm worried it would hurt them, and you know, that sort of thing. And he didn't want to hurt his family, he didn't want them to be devastated, which of course they would be, and they are now. Um, but she said things like, Oh, don't worry, I'll handle it for you, and all this stuff. Like basically trying to tell him, Oh, don't worry too much about that, it's not a big deal. Like, you know, so so that's also messed, that's messed up in itself. Basically saying, Oh, just kill yourself because you know, I can handle your family, they'll get over it.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Like, yeah, I really I'm so confused about this relationship and the bonding, you know. Right? Because yeah, I know what is the love in that?

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Well, that's well, that's exactly it, right? Was it ever really love, or was it, like I said, this like dark sort of trauma bonding or like this emotional tie need um to just discuss these things with someone. Yeah, because you're someone like it you're that person for someone in their life, like you, like they need you, or like you get that attention and you feel like that's something that would be great for you to have, you know, like it's just I don't know, but but it's it's really it's really messed up. So um she even says things like when he starts to talk about like not you know um wanting to do it, and then sometimes he'll back out and you know not do it. She tells him things like you keep pushing it off. Like that's one of her actual texts. You keep pushing it off. She says, You just have to do it.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

And uh how did he react to that message?

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Well, I mean, he's he says things like he, you know, it might hurt his family, or you know, it might do this, or like, yeah, but you know, other times he's like, Yeah, you're right, I gotta, you know, I gotta do this. But she tells him if he doesn't do it now, he's never going to do it. So like she's encouraging him to do it.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

If you're healthy, well, we cannot really say this because he was struggling with the uh mental health, right? Right, obviously. Like he was he would think, like, oh, okay, um I told her that I want to do something really bad by killing myself. I would expect that she would say, Oh no, don't do that. But if she's encouraging him to do something as negative, then he should think why she did that.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Well, yeah, but that's the thing, right? Like, yeah, well, like logically, you look back and you're like, well, how did he not see that this is this is such weird behavior for your partner to be encouraging this? But again, he's struggling with mental health, right? And you have to be you know, you have to be sympathetic to the idea that like people that struggle with mental health this severe do can't think properly for themselves, right? There are there are lots of, and I don't know what the issues were neurologically or anything like that, but there are lots of real neurological issues that people suffer from and and have these chemical imbalances in their brain that do not allow them to think the way that we do in a logical way.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Right?

SPEAKER_02 19:55

They're they're missing parts in their brain that allow them to suppress those negative thoughts and behaviors and and stop that rumination. So anyway, she she's telling them all these things. Um she even says stuff like you better not be bullshitting and saying he's going to do it.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Um It's okay, you know, the more I hear about how their text were, to me, we can also think um in a way that she's kind of saying, Hey, I would challenge you. Would you really do that? You know? And then from his side, he might say, Yeah, I said this, and I can prove it to you that I would do it. You know, it's more like one challenge that, like, oh no, you're just um saying something that you would not make it.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

Right, but that's the thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Yeah, and then the other person, the guy, no, I'm not saying anything, I will do what I say.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Yeah, exactly. So that kind of dynamic. Well, that is one of the things that was brought up is that she says something about him promising her. For she's like, You promised me, and that's my that's the question that I thought of when I saw that. I was like, What why? Why would she want him to promise her about to do it? Yeah, she like like saying, You better not be bullshitting me, and you're probably just gonna do it or like start doing it and then purposely get caught, like meaning that he's gonna get rescued, right? Which is a good thing, but she's not very presenting it like it's a good thing, right? So, like it could be him, you know, he could want to survive and he just doesn't know how to deal with all the pain. That's what it sounds like to me. It's like he he backs out and he's and he's saying, like, you know, I'm afraid, and like I don't know, and you know, going back and forth, but instead of saying and push you know, talking him off the Alleged she's essentially pushing him.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Yeah, well, she essentially was hoping that okay, just prove it, don't say.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

But that's not in the right situation to do that.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

I mean, she even said, Well, yeah, I mean, that's that's not the term.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

No, no, but if you look at like the I know just a normal relationship, and then if you Well, you keep saying you're gonna do it, but you don't do it.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Like not talking about doing something bad, but like, you know, if you promise something, you know, if if it's in like in a normal relationship, a guy usually says, Oh yeah, I'm gonna do something. I promise you, I will give it to you, you know. Yep. But if the guy does not do it, then the girl will be pissed off. She gets annoyed, right? Exactly. But in the situation, it is not a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

That's not exactly, but that's that's the that's the question though that people talk about too, right? Is like, what is like her rationale for sending these types of texts? And like, is she like, you know, there there's different discussions about what her motive was. Was it that she was starting to get annoyed by hearing this, right? But that's one interpretation. She was like, Oh, you keep talking about this, I'm tired of hearing of it, right? Yeah, there's the other interpretation of like, you know, um uh she doesn't, you know, she wants him to get it over with because she thinks he's in so much pain, right? You know, that's a possibility. It doesn't seem likely from all the evidence, but you know, that's a possibility. And, you know, there's other possibilities too. She had told her friends, for example, that um, you know, he was suffering mentally and that he had these suicidal ideations and things like that. So that was another theme. She had already told all these people and basically set it up so that they were expecting something to happen. And then if he didn't do it, maybe they would think, Oh, you're a liar. You said he had a problem, but he doesn't, right? And that would make her look bad. So, like other people think that might have been part of the motive, right? So there's so many different um different reasons there, but it's pretty messed up. Okay, so so let's get back actually to the family fear part, because you did talk a little bit about like, you know, what was the family thinking? Yeah, were they aware, right? Um, and and that's you know, again, part of the the things that kind of is is you know, one of the darkest parts is that like he was genuinely concerned about his family. And usually you're concerned about how they're gonna react. You know, that says a lot about his character. He sounds like he was a you know a decent person, right? He he had empathy, yeah. He wanted to make sure that his parents and his sisters were going to be okay. Um, and you'd think that would be enough of a reason to stop someone from doing it, right? Being like, yeah, you're right, they are going to suffer. This is going to be horrible for them. But Michelle doesn't do that, she does the opposite. She um she keeps going. And the the court actually quotes uh an exchange where he says he has a bad feeling that this will create a lot of depression between his parents and sisters, and that's a pretty human reaction, right? Um But Michelle talks him out of it. She tells him that his parents know he's in a bad place. She says everyone has tried to help. She says there comes a point where there's nothing anyone can do to save him. She says everyone will be sad for a while, but they will get over it and move on.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

It's just like that. I don't get it.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Like, I'm yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, this case is one of the darkest cases I've ever heard of. Like, I can't even fathom talking someone into suicide. It's just so wow. Um, like, I don't I don't know. Like, I don't know how how you can justify that to yourself, unless you're like a psychopath or something. Because like, how do you do that? So, you know, that that's what really bothers me is that there's just seems to be no empathy. Uh I just don't even understand the motive, but I I can guess, you know, reasons, and we'll talk more in detail about those. But um, okay, so she, you know, and and she's not missing his fear, she knows he's afraid, she understands the fear well enough to answer it and to talk to him about it. Um, but she's basically just saying, Don't worry, they'll survive your death.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Um and was she angry when she was texting that?

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Well, no, but she she frames it almost in like, I'll be disappointed, right? The texts come across that way, at least the way I read them. Right. And I don't know about you, but like I know when I got in trouble with like my parents, I like I always felt so much worse and was way more likely to want to change my behavior when they said, I'm not angry, I'm just really disappointed.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

And I was like, ah, fuck. Like, you know, like and you just think like that's so much worse, right? And so that's what it sounded like. She was doing that kind of emotional manipulation with him, right? Oh, okay. Yeah, anyway. So the promise me thing is really odd, right? When she says, promise me that. And that's one of those details Promise me that you would kill yourself. That you'll kill yourself, right? Like, it's just like, what? Why would you get someone to promise you? It's like, promise me you'll love me forever. Like you and I talk about like literally that, like every day. Like, promise me you'll always love me the same way this right. Like every day, like, do you still love me like a million times over and over and over? It's like, yeah, but like Vit promise me like basically the opposite that you will get rid of. Oh my god. And like, I don't know. So days before his death, um, Conrad says he's going to do it on a particular day, right? And Michelle then says, you know, do you promise? And he says, I promise, babe. And then he says, I have to now. And Michelle tells him he cannot break promise, then suggests that he goes into a quiet parking lot to do it. And he did it, and and that's where he ended up doing it.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Oh my god. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

And and this is like that's a that's the weirdest thing, is that like, how does suicide become a promise? Like that it's really I don't understand. It like especially, you know, we think about this, like what's happening? This is someone struggling so much right now. They are and and looking for help in any way possible. And remember, he keeps uh backing out of these situations, he keeps reaching out for help. He tells his parents after some of his suicide attempts, right? He go, he tells his family and his friends. And you know, he he's trying, but he can't seem to get there, right? He's just he keeps going back to this really dark place. That's when people need you to lit, you know, people need to be there for those those those times, right? But in instead, she's doing the opposite. So, um, you know, so she says, right, uh, you know, do you promise me? And he says, yeah. And it becomes basically something he owes her. And so, you know, it's no longer what are you gonna do? It's now you told me you were going to do this. So that opens up a ton of possibilities. Like, is she tired of him backing out? Like we talked about before, right? Maybe she thinks he needs peace. Maybe she wants the uncertainty to end. Um, maybe he already started telling people a story and she needs him to follow through. Maybe she thinks she is helping him in some way. Maybe the promise gives her leverage, or it's some horrible mix of all of that, right? But um it just feels like a a very controlling thing to do um in any situation, and especially in a relationship. So, anyway. Now, um the next part of the the the story is what I think uh what prosecutors focused on um quite a bit was this idea of kind of a a story rehearsal, right? Um they referred to it as like a dry run, but it's essentially a story rehearsal um that you know that for me at least it makes sense more psychologically. So let me let me set the scene for you. So before Conrad died, um Michelle was texting friends as if he was already missing. Okay, she told them she had not heard from him. She said his family was looking for him. But according to the court, she was that was not true at all. She was actually communicating with him daily, like she was communicating with him up until it happened. And I haven't even told you the most disturbing part yet. Okay, and and she knew he was not missing because she was talking to him. So it's weird that she'd be telling all of these people. Right? She also asked a friend whether a portable generator could kill someone, even though she and Conrad had already talked about carbon monoxide as like a uh you know a poisoning method.

SPEAKER_03 32:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

So that's a huge detail because now the case is not only about what she says to Conrad, it's also about what she's telling other people before he's even dead, right? So that's where I start wondering like if Conrad's death had become somehow useful to her as a story, right? Maybe she was rehearsing the role of the worried girlfriend, right? She's setting it up for after he does it, right? And that's I think part of what the the prosecution was arguing during the case. Maybe she was getting attention as the worried girlfriend. Maybe she wanted people to see her as the person closest to this crisis, right? Because, or, you know, and then you know, the really dark possibility is is also this, right? If Conrad survives, what happens to the story she already started telling, right? If he backs out again, like he has before. Well, she was hoping uh that he really killed himself exactly so that she can play the victim and she can play the poor girlfriend that has to deal with all of this and poor her, and like oh no, it just becomes this like you know, and and these are not, yeah, I don't I I can't speak to what actually happened, but like these things start running through my head as like these are possibilities of maybe what she was thinking. Um so you know, it's it's very it's very complicated and dark when you think about those possibilities.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

So, how did the police uh get to her though?

SPEAKER_02 33:49

How did the police get to her?

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

Well, they found her texts, right? So they ended up finding the texts that he and her were sending back and forth to each other.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Was that like the Well, because they interviewed people, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:04

So they interviewed people and they got texts to try to understand why you know he would do this, right? And that is a good question, though. I didn't come across exactly like how they came across like how why would they need to look at her text for that? But I guess in a case like that, maybe that's like procedure that they always look through. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

I actually screened through all yeah, well, whatever that's a really good question, though. I really could be the evidence for the case, right? And then uh the police could have the uh tool to screen whatever that was going through in the text and yeah, exactly, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:46

Like I would imagine they would have access to that.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Like they would they narrow it down to something, oh suspicious.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Oh, that is text here that talks about because there's so many cases where people actually suicide. Yeah, well, but there's so many cases where people, you know, um murder someone and then try to make it look like suicide, right? So I guess they have to probably rule those possibilities out. Um especially if like he had a history of attempts but always backed out, and you know, maybe that wasn't really fitting his pattern, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Well, um it could be, right? I mean, if you talk about the guy who tried to ha to kill himself several times and then finally he killed himself. Yeah. So that could be like two big possibilities. The first possibility is okay, he finally decided to do that on his own, you know. But and the second one, oh, maybe somebody actually pushes him to do that. But exactly.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

You hope that's not the case, right? Yeah. That's that seems like a really dark possibility, but in this case, it is.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

It is the case. So let's get on to the actual night of the event, right? The final night. Um, and this is where all those pieces that we discussed really matter, right? So the phone relationship with her and him matter with Conrad and Michelle, right? They were on the phone all the time. The prior patterns that they had together, the fact that she once encountered um uh, you know, the the possibility that he should have helped right, that that he um maybe get help, but then shift into the opposite, right? So that that shift from helping to hurting sort of really um speaks volumes to some of the details after.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Did he uh speak to oh I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

That's all all good. What'd you drop?

SPEAKER_00 36:41

My phone. Oh sorry, it's all good.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

I almost dropped these headphones like a thousand times.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Yeah, I was about to ask you, did he actually see the psychiatrist at all?

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Uh I believe he did. I believe he was talking to like professionals.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

They should have the uh his record.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

Yeah, they should. I would be surprised if he wasn't. I kind of just assumed that he was talking to, you know, a psychiatrist or like a at least a clinical psychologist, but I don't I don't know for sure. Um okay, so you know, all of these these details, the pressure texts, the family reassurance, the promises, the story rehearsals. Um they all matter because at this point it's not just he was suicidal and she knew, right? That would be one thing if she didn't prevent him from doing it, but it's not even just that. It's she was fully aware of everything, and she was pushing him.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Not you know she did not talk to like his parents or family about that.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

No, and that's the part that is really yeah disturbing, right? She didn't tell his family, she pretended that he was missing up until the day that he wow actually followed through, right? Um, so like she knew he hesitated before, she knew he was scared, she knew his family, knew about this past behavior. She knew that he was worried about his family um if he went through with it. Um, so he was hesitating. But like she still made him promise, she still pressured him about delaying, like got annoyed with him that he wasn't doing it, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:27

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Right. So like she treated getting caught like you know, if you get caught, you're probably gonna do this and get caught purposely, as like as if he betrayed her, but you know, as if that would be a betrayal on his part. You know what I mean? It's it's just so is it's really dark. And she already told other people some version of the story where he was missing and she was worried about him and all that. So she was already creating this whole narrative um up to that night. And then the final night on July uh on July 12th, 2014, Conrad drove to a store parking lot um in Massachusetts, and he ended up dying by carbon monoxide poisoning in his truck. Now, you know, I'm not gonna describe how to do that, of course. There's very ethical reasons for not going into those details, but the method matters legally. Um, but the episode really is about psychology and um pressure and what happened before um and when he got scared. Now, during the period when police believed he was in the truck, there were two long phone calls between him and Michelle. And unfortunately, they were not recorded, right? They didn't actually have the record the um the recordings of these calls. One call was from Conrad to Michelle, and another was from Michelle to Conrad, and both of them were long, but the calls, again, like I said, they were not recorded, so we can't say for certain what was said. Um, but what we do have is what she said later about it to a friend. So shortly after the second call, Michelle texted a friend saying Conrad had called her, that she heard a loud motor, that it sounded like he was in pain, and that he would not answer when she said his name. Okay. So that that you know, these details are very important because it it suggests a narrative of you know these stories that she's creating, this identity that she's trying to present herself as. Then she texted that she thought he had killed himself. So she's not confused in some abstract way. She knows this is happening, she knows he's in danger, and she does not call 911, she does not call his family, she does not tell him to get out. So, you know, she's not there physically, right? So that's what makes this case interesting and and kind of complicated, and it was a bit of an issue for the prosecution because technically she wasn't there. She didn't push him, she didn't stab him, she didn't shoot him, but she did convince him, right? And that was their job to say, look, he had reservations, and she convinced him otherwise. So that's you know, that that's that's what makes this really tricky. Now, this is the part that I think is like the most damning of this entire case, and the most the craziest, darkest thing that she did. Okay. So um weeks after everything happened, Michelle texted a friend and said Conrad's death was her fault, right? She said she could have stopped him, she said she was on the phone with him, and she said he got out because he was scared. Now everything there makes it sound like okay, she really cared, you know, she was she was whatever.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

But then apparently after he got out, she told him to get back in. So he got out of the car, right?

SPEAKER_02 42:32

And that's similar to the pattern that he had before. He got scared and he backed out or he reached out for help. He was on the phone with his girlfriend, Michelle.

SPEAKER_03 42:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

He got out of the truck because it started to feel real to him. He knew he was going to die. So he got out for fresh air to catch his breath so he wouldn't die of carbon monoxide poisoning. He got out of the truck and she told him to get back in. How messed up is that? So, like, that's you know, that's the part that just is like, wow, like he was clearly seeking help. He wanted to get out, he did not want to follow through with it. He was scared.

SPEAKER_03 43:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

And instead of helping him through that, right? She instead told him to do the opposite. And this is where it's like, well, why would she do that? Like, what the hell is her motive here, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:28

And well, she's not healthy either.

SPEAKER_02 43:31

She's not healthy either, right? And that is a good point. That is a very good point, right? She is obviously not healthy either. She had a lot of demons, and that was part of what made them bond in the first place. But I mean, most of the time when people are depressed or anxious or whatever, it's usually you know, something that they inflict on themselves, not on other people. Right. Um so I mean i it's possible that uh you know she was she was uh doing this out of out of guilt or it could be a distorted idea of mercy or some emotional exhaustion, right? She was just tired of dealing with him talking about these things or tired, you know. Or it could be that she was trying to control things, right? She wanted to be able to control someone's life. Like what you know bigger form of control is there than trying to control someone's uh life or death, right? That's yeah. So uh yeah, I mean, it could even be her trying to explain the worst thing she did in a way that sounds less monstrous, right? She maybe was just trying to do that, justify it. But no matter which way you take it, the basic fact is still super disturbing. He got out and she told him to get back in. And again, it's not just failing to save him, that's pushing against the part of him that was trying to survive. So, um yeah, I mean, what do you think? Do you think she wanted him dead, or do you think uh she just wanted the cycle to end? Or do you think it was something else? Maybe it was a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

No, I think no, I think it's very complex situations, as uh as I mentioned. She's not um in a healthy mind either. So she might see that as kind of, oh, if I I I really don't know. I but I don't think there is no kind of love in there. It's more about the psychology, psychological bonding, or she might think, okay, if I I want to do that, but I'm afraid, so maybe I would I would kind of know what experience it would be to know that someone that I think I like would die uh to give her some kind of satisfaction for herself or what kind of curiosity that she has with uh her own condition.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

I don't know, that's how I think about it because you know, like I never even thought of that perspective. Like this this couple, they're not in a healthy mindset, right? Like so she might want to experience that, but she's not ready enough. So what about if she's projecting that?

SPEAKER_02 46:21

That's a really interesting perspective. I thought of so many different perspectives, and that one didn't cross my mind. But yeah, it is possible that she was maybe considering things like that herself, and she wanted to just know what the feeling and the experience was like, and whether or not she'd be able to go through with it herself.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:41

I mean, it doesn't make the situation any better. No, no, no, it's still a very manipulative self-serving thing to do, but it's but it it is an interesting possibility that I haven't considered.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Because we cannot look at it from just a healthy person's perspective. Like this girl also has a problem, you know? Yeah, so we should kind of see the possibilities what she was going through with that kind of emotion. It's not only I want him to suffer, but what is um, I don't know, what kind of narrative that's like that's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

Yeah, no, I never even thought of that. That's that's really interesting. Um, but yeah, I'm I'm curious to know what like the you know the majority of people think because there's so many, like there's so much rich like psychological, you know, detail to this case, right? Where we really have no idea what's going through their heads in these moments, but it's there's so many possibilities. Yeah. So yeah, so so eventually, you know, what happened to Michelle, right? What happened to Michelle Carter? Well, she was eventually um charged with um involuntary manslaughter as a youthful offender, okay, because remember, she was only seven.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Yeah, that's also another thing that I'm thinking, okay, like in that situation, both of them were probably not mature enough to deal with this mental health situations, you know, they did not know how to seek help and um the O'Connor.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

But I always wonder about that too. It's like what at what point, you know, d are you able truly to make those types of decisions? What age and like yeah, at what point do you know right from wrong? And the thing is, I think people know right from wrong a lot earlier than that. Oh yeah, I think normally normally, but I still don't think I I still think that there has to be some sort of moral compass that like supersedes everything, no matter the age, even if you are in the world.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Yeah, even though you're a child, uh yeah, even though you're a child, sharing something, yeah, not hurting other kids. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

Like I don't think you can use, oh, I you know, she was only 17. Like I, you know, when I was in when I was 17.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

No.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

And I've been depressed, you know. I've I've you know, I've experienced those things. I'm not saying I'm in any way in the same mental state that you know either of them were, or that anything is comparable, but I'm just saying I don't think there's any scenario where I could feel so down that I would convince no, I know there's no way I would do that. That's just it's so gross. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

It yeah, it's just very complicated, I think. Very complicated situations. When I was in that age, what did I do? I was just playing around.

SPEAKER_02 49:43

I know, right? Yeah. Yeah. So the so they they did um convict her, um, and the court held that the evidence was sufficient, that her verbal conduct was not protected by the first amendment, because the defense tried to argue that it was, you know, part of her first amendment right to be able to, you know, speak freely. And but the but the point here is not you know, is not trying to be is not trying to say words are murder, it's more specific than that, right? It's it's actually looking at uh a specific relationship, uh, a vulnerability, pressure, and knowledge that she had in a specific moment when he got out and she told him to get back in. That is very different from just oh, it's free speech. Yeah, right. Like, I mean so that's why this case matters legally. Um, but you know, for the for me, like the psychological point is still the strongest part. She knew his fears, she knew his doubts, she knew his pattern of backing out, and that she was afraid of, you know, that he was afraid of hurting his family, that he was afraid of everything, and she just manipulated that in my eyes. Um, okay, and then okay, so the the possible motives we've talked a little bit about this one, but I don't think there's, you know, that one explanation for any of the possibilities that we discussed is really enough because it could be several things, right, working together. And you know, um maybe it was guilt, maybe the later message to her friend is exactly what it sounds like. Maybe she knew she had done something terrible and she finally said it. Although, I don't know. I'm I I think more it's more likely that she just wanted more attention. But then, but you know, please don't hate me, everyone, uh, for saying that. But then, you know, um so yeah, but the the question of that too is like if you're just saying that to be the center of attention, I mean it's not really real guilt, right? You're not really feeling guilty about it if you're saying it to someone just to get attention. Um, but maybe it was, you know, some sort of distorted mercy. Maybe she really thought he would be better off if he wasn't suffering anymore. I I don't know. She maybe that was some way of thinking, it was a more charitable way for everything to to proceed. Um, but I mean that's I think that's a hard one to argue. So um so you know, this is uh this is a really, really deep one. Um and uh yeah, that's that's the case.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

But did she make any confession at all?

SPEAKER_02 52:45

Like saying as far as I know, she didn't really say much, you know. Okay. Um I couldn't find too many details on on exactly that, right? I think that usually in cases like this, they try to keep them off the stand and off of you know, speaking too much about the case. Um because I mean it's I don't think anyone's gonna side with her hearing her side, you know, quote unquote her side of the story, right? So I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

Well, choosing the uh healthy and right circle is very important.

SPEAKER_02 53:23

Yeah, no shit. I know. Like, yeah, I I told you that too. It's like, you know, when I first came to Iowa, I was like, oh yeah, because like I've always been a very positive family. Yeah, I've always been a very positive person and a very like um, you know, and I always thought, oh, I could do anything on my own, blah blah blah. But then came to Iowa on my own, no friends, no family here, and it was like super lonely, and you don't realize like how much you need that support system and that positivity surrounding you. Like, and that's what I had back home. And you realize like how privileged you are sometimes in those environments. Like, I didn't realize how amazing I knew I had it great, I didn't realize how amazing it was to have that positivity surrounding you all the time, you know? Because it quickly you can get really down really quickly. So um, yeah, anyway, that's uh that is the case of uh of uh uh Michelle Carter and Conrad Roy.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 54:31

So yeah. She didn't get very much time though.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

No?

SPEAKER_02 54:35

No.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

So I think she was Did she get any treatment?

SPEAKER_02 54:40

No, I don't think so. So she ended up serving um, I think she was sentenced eventually to something like 14 months or something like that. For well and she only ended up serving 11 months in uh you know in prison. And like I don't I just don't man that just doesn't seem like enough time. I don't know if she'd learn her lesson after that. She was only you know, she was 17, you know, comes out, she's still a teen when she leaves, like, or I don't know, like usually these things take a long time, right?

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Oh no, it's only f 11 months, right?

SPEAKER_02 55:20

You said 11 months, yeah, not years, like months. And uh I don't know. If I were the family, I would be pretty pissed at that sentencing.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

Yeah, well, probably because she did not get involved directly. Well, we don't know if we can I don't know if I can say that directly or indirectly, but she is pushing that.

SPEAKER_02 55:39

But you know, in Yeah, well she took a plea deal, right? She took a plea deal, and that usually was not there. Yeah. But the I guess, you know, eventually she was convicted of involuntary manslaughter. Yeah. Right. Um, which is like, oh, I didn't mean you know, you think of that wording like involuntary. I don't think that really fits this case very well because it was clearly voluntary manslaughter to me. Like I don't know how you can interpret that any other way.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

Don't understand.

SPEAKER_02 56:10

Clearly tried to get him to do it. He was leaving and he pushed him back in. Yeah. I mean, anyway. Okay, that was a long one, but I I had to, yeah. I was, yeah, I I was excited to tell you this one because I was like, holy crap, this one's crazy. And that's why I had so many notes because I had a bunch of texts and like all this stuff that I was like, wow, can't believe some of the stuff. But um, anyway, I hope everyone liked that. Um, well, not liked the details, but you know, enjoyed um the craziness of the case. So yeah, tell me the crime episode 14. Uh see you next week.

unknown 56:47

Bye.