Episode 21: She Moved Abroad for Love - The Murder of Ashley Wadsworth

Nineteen-year-old Ashley Wadsworth travelled from British Columbia to England to spend time with Jack Sepple, a man she had built a relationship with online. At first, it looked like a romantic adventure: sightseeing, smiling photos, and the excitement of finally being together in person.

But behind the pictures, the relationship became controlling and dangerous. Ashley decided she wanted to return home to Canada. Before she could leave, Sepple killed her.

In this episode, Febriana tells John the story of Ashley Wadsworth’s murder, the warning signs in Jack Sepple’s past, and the difficult questions this case raises about coercive control, international relationships, online intimacy, and what can happen when an abusive partner realizes they are losing control.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Imagine you're nineteen years old and you can fly across the world for someone you think you love. At first it looks romantic. London, castles, smiling photos, a new life. But then he becomes jealous, controlling dangerous. You book a flight home and before you can leave, he realizes he's losing control and kills you. This is Tell Me the Crime episode 21. Welcome back.

SPEAKER_04 0:44

Tell Me the Crime.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Episode 21.

SPEAKER_04 0:49

Yeah. Oh, and we forgot you mentioned that we need to start introducing ourselves before we move forward. So in every other episode in every other like crime podcast, they always say who they are before. So I am John. And I'm Fabriana. Grundy. Officially now, she has Grundy on her driving driving license now, which is awesome. Okay. So um Fabriana is going to be telling the crime today. Today. I've been super busy. So um, babe, tell me the crime.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

I will tell you. What do we got?

SPEAKER_04 1:22

What do we got today?

SPEAKER_01 1:23

So the title of today's Crime is She Traveled Across the World for Love. The murder of Ashley Wadsworth.

SPEAKER_04 1:33

Ooh, okay. Do you see the first line? Across the world for love. Is that what you said? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

She traveled across the world for love. Damn. All right.

SPEAKER_04 1:44

Does it sound uh relatable for myself? It does a little bit. Yeah. I mean, you and I both traveled across the world, I guess, for love. Well, I didn't I traveled to the next country over, but still. We will be traveling across the world in a couple of days after our wedding in one week. Okay. Okay. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

So imagine being 19 years old and traveling thousands of kilometers to finally meet someone you have known online for years.

SPEAKER_04 2:16

Oh, online for years. Okay. Will you be so excited about it? Yeah, that'd be amazing. Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

No, I think I will be very excited.

SPEAKER_04 2:24

Oh no, I hope this is not like a catfishing situation.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

We'll see. So at first, everything looks exciting, right? For this 19-year-old um person, well, I will say girl.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

Where is she from?

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Do you want to guess?

SPEAKER_04 2:41

Indonesia.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

No.

SPEAKER_04 2:42

Okay. Thailand.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

No.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

France.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

No?

SPEAKER_04 2:46

Is she in Europe or Asia? Or like give me some hint.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

It's in America continent.

SPEAKER_04 2:53

It's an American continent. Okay. Well, you mean an American like state somewhere?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Continent.

SPEAKER_04 3:00

Oh, continent. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Well then that's I give you a very general hint, but it's in.

SPEAKER_04 3:05

Right. Is it in. I mean, does isn't Hawaii well, Hawaii is its own little island, right? So is it Hawaii?

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Nope.

SPEAKER_04 3:11

Oh, okay.

unknown 3:12

Alaska.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Is in Canada.

SPEAKER_04 3:14

Alaska?

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Canada. You just said American continent.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

Oh, Jesus Christ. Okay. Wow, I saw I feel really stupid right now.

unknown 3:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 3:24

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

You said is it from Europe, Asia? No, I said American continent.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

No, but you said American continent, and I was like, does she mean like like US?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

No.

SPEAKER_04 3:34

And I was like, US continent doesn't really make sense, but at the same time, I was thinking, like, does she mean like island in the US? No, it's not an island in the US.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

It's in the part of the big part of American continent. Which we have middle down into Canada.

SPEAKER_04 3:48

I should have, yep, I should have. Yeah. Oh my god. It's crazy how many people don't realize that Canada is part of uh North America. American continent. It's America, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

North America is part of the American continent.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

I know, you're right. So is Mexico. Exactly. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

So is Brazil.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, just different.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:07

Yeah. Okay. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

So this 19-year-old girl was very excited. Um, you could imagine that you arrive in another country, not in your own country, which is in this uh story, she arrived in England.

SPEAKER_04 4:24

Okay. So she went from Canada to England.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Uh-huh. And you explore a new country. I will be very excited, because I like doing that, right? Um, you take photographs together, you pose smiling pictures online.

SPEAKER_06 4:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

And to your family and friends back in Canada, it looks like the beginning of a new adventure.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Hmm. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

But less than three months later, something has changed.

unknown 4:52

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 4:53

Okay. Less than three months later. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Like you begin telling people that, hey, I want to go home. And one morning you see that your boyfriend's, or in this context, if I want you to imagine, you see your girlfriend's phone to send a message, hey, it's me and your help. It's an emergency, please.

SPEAKER_04 5:15

Whoa, okay, so hold on. She's already over there and and family and friends are wondering this.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

She sent a message to family and friends. Saying that, hey, like, it's me, it's me, Fabrianne. I want to go home.

SPEAKER_04 5:31

Yeah, okay. Okay. You know I would be like, oh shit, that okay, why?

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Yeah, exactly. I guess it didn't go as well.

SPEAKER_04 5:38

Well, especially because you that like you're saying that these people knew each other, they've been speaking for years.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

For years online.

SPEAKER_04 5:44

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:46

Alright, so I'd be a little bit like, oh shit, what's going on? Yeah. Because if you wanted to be there, did she plan to live there with the person?

SPEAKER_01 5:53

You'll see more details. And I can tell you that it's very relatable to so many people who have international love.

SPEAKER_06 6:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

So the message is sent to people in two different countries. Um so England and also in Canada. But because of the time difference, some of them are asleep. Right. And others do not see it immediately, right? So if I want to send a message uh to my family back home, you know, it's some hour difference. Yeah, we have to wait, right? Until they respond to us. But yeah, when finally um someone reaches the house, nobody answers the door.

SPEAKER_04 6:36

When somebody reaches the house in the UK?

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 6:38

Okay. So what, like her family and friends went there? Or like someone reached out to someone in the UK that knows both of them to check on them?

SPEAKER_01 6:48

It would be somebody from the UK.

SPEAKER_04 6:50

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

But later on, that would be um the family back in Canada.

SPEAKER_06 6:55

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Okay, so the story is about Ashley. So Ashley is a 19-year-old Canadian who traveled to England to spend time with someone she believed she knew deeply.

SPEAKER_06 7:07

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Okay. So she traveled to England to meet her boyfriend.

SPEAKER_04 7:13

Okay. And who's her boyfriend? What is his name?

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Her boyfriend's name is Jack.

SPEAKER_04 7:18

Okay, so Jack and her had been online dating for a while. Do we know what platform it was on?

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Facebook.

SPEAKER_04 7:25

Facebook. Was it like the Facebook dating app, or was it just like through like the room connection?

SPEAKER_01 7:31

They knew it from a r from I think one one what do you call it? A mutual friend. A mutual friend, yeah. Oh my god, I lost the word. Mutual friend.

SPEAKER_04 7:40

That's fine. I I lose words all the time and I have no excuse. I'm a native English speaker, so okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Okay. Yeah. So this is the case of Ashley Watsworth, a 19-year-old Canadian who traveled to England to spend time with um her boyfriend in England. Right. So um because today is my turn to tell a crime story to you, I would actually um start with telling you the background of who Ashley was. Okay. And then I tell you who Jack is.

SPEAKER_03 8:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Oh wow. I was so very careful in choosing was an is.

SPEAKER_04 8:22

Yeah, because apparently in in in English, so if everyone is telling me, she's like, it's so confusing. Like sometimes you use like the present tense. Do tell the past story. And it's true, like sometimes you'll say, and then he goes to the store. Yeah, and then he comes like you know Hold on, I think this already happened in the past.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Why are you using present? Come on.

SPEAKER_04 8:45

It must be so confusing for second language learners because we we don't I don't really know why I do it, to be honest with you. I have no idea.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

We're gonna do some linguistic analysis at some point in our podcast. At some point, right? But I'm so excited about that. Okay. Okay. So let's come back to Ashley Wordsworth case. So Ashley was from Fernand, British Columbia, a city in Okanagan Valley.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

Okay. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Um, she was described as bright, outgoing, she was also adventurous, compassionate, and she played uh tennis, she played clarinet, um, she enjoyed hiking, camping, off-roading, traveling. So she had a lot of hobbies, right? Right, right. And I think she's pretty social that way. She spoke French and she had been accepted at Thompson Rivers University.

SPEAKER_06 9:36

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

Oh shit. Whoops. Whoops. This is The Priest.

SPEAKER_04 9:42

Oh, it's not even no, it's you I think it's my mom's phone. Oh shit. My mom's looking for her phone. Okay, we're gonna have to put this on pause for a second. What the hell? Everyone, I uh yeah, my mom and I have uh an identical phone. We seem to have a very similar brain. I don't know how. We both ended up getting the same color phone and the exact same case independently.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

And uh was that was that in the recording?

SPEAKER_04 10:10

That was in the recording, yeah. Yeah, that was definitely in the recording, the um the phone going off. So, okay, get back to the story. What?

SPEAKER_01 10:18

You did not delete it?

SPEAKER_04 10:20

No, I didn't delete it. I didn't delete it. I'm just gonna keep it in the thing, you know, it keeps things interesting. Let's go. Let's go. All right, so back to the story. Back to the story.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

So where was I?

SPEAKER_04 10:32

You were talking about the university.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

She just got a cut in the yeah she got accepted at Thompson Rivers University. Yeah. So one detail about Ashley that stood out to me was that she reportedly made an effort to befriend international students at school. Okay. So she was really nice, right?

SPEAKER_06 10:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Because she understood that being far from home could feel lonely. So she tried to make people feel included.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Yeah. So she's naturally caring toward people who felt isolated. And uh her family said Ashley tended to look for the good in people. Um she believed that people could improve and she wanted to support them. And this is very important because Ashley should not be described as simply naive. But she was compassionate.

SPEAKER_04 11:24

You know what? This is why while you were saying that, before you even said that, too, is that you were thinking about that. I was thinking that because I was thinking, well, not that she was naive, quite the opposite. I was thinking that like a lot, it's unfortunate that a lot of these cases that we talk about, these people are often described as smart, as like as outgoing, yeah, as like, you know, very social, has lots of hobbies, you know, they might be athletic, part of all these groups. It's really sad to see because a lot of these people are actually they sound like they're really good.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Good people and they want to be compassionate.

SPEAKER_04 12:00

They're compassionate, and that's you know, part of what makes them targets, right? Because they're more likely to give people chances, which is really sad, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Like you don't want that to change in the world, but at the same time, it's like we have to be very cautious, and that's really, really hard for people who are very compassionate and passionate at the same time. Exactly. Because they only see the good in people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:25

Okay, so back to it.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Yeah. Okay. So um, yeah, that's kind of her personality from the report that I read. Right. And then um now I'm gonna tell you about Jack. So Jack, uh Ashley's boyfriend. Uh his name is Jack Sappel. He lived in Clemsford, Essex, England.

SPEAKER_06 12:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Um, he was approximately three and a half years older than Ashley. So he was around 21, 22. Yeah. Okay. And people who knew him described two very different sides of Jack's personality.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Really? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

So he could appear affectionate, charming, um, and emotionally vulnerable. But he was also described as socially isolated, intensely jealous. Um, he was also possessive and quick to become aggressive.

SPEAKER_04 13:22

So what was this who described him as these things? Do you know? Does it say or is it?

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Like former classmates, for example, reportedly remember that he could suddenly snap.

SPEAKER_04 13:32

Right, right. But then who were the people that said he was compassionate and kind and all that?

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Like, well, I think it's probably just mix, you know, because from the report that I read, like former classmates reported him as this. A former teacher described him as intimidating. Right. Um, particularly toward the female staff.

SPEAKER_04 13:51

Huh.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

So it's Okay, okay, okay. Some kind of uh Yeah, there's a mix.

SPEAKER_04 13:55

There's there's a mixed uh set of messages being knew him. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Okay. So that combination probably made him difficult for Ashley to understand, right? Because one side of him he's really nice. Really sweet, really sweet, but another side, you know, there's a demon inside him. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:18

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Yeah, I don't know how to describe that. But it's kind of like two opposite poles of personality.

SPEAKER_04 14:24

Did he have like bipolar disorder or something?

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Uh not that I know of from the report that I read.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

Well, I guess bipolar would be more of like, you know, super depressed and then manic stages, which doesn't quite fit. Maybe it was like borderline personality disorder or something. Who knows? Okay. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Yeah. Uh but the question is, why do you think she could not see uh who he really was? Um like from the instruction, sometimes we can get a sense of his own personality.

SPEAKER_04 14:55

There's there's so many ways so many reasons why she couldn't or she did notice and she chose to ignore, right? So there's there's a lot of different sides to that, right? Like she might have known that he had those sides to him, but she chose to pay attention more to the positive aspects of his personality. Um you know, a lot of people, it could have been something like what someone who really wants to fix things, right? Fix uh damaged person or you know, something like that. So I mean it could be that, or maybe she just um she was just blinded by love, right? I mean sometimes you you really just can't see the negative, or or even worse, is when it's a gradual shift, right? So maybe it started off as all positive and then he started introducing negativity slowly, and then it became more and more and more. And the thing about gradual shifts like that is that you don't tend to notice them right.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Because that's very subtle.

SPEAKER_04 16:00

Right. If it's a subtle shift, you don't really notice it if yeah, as opposed to something where it just like changes overnight, right? So I don't know. I I don't know these people, but that's a possibility.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

I agree with you, but the report also said that actually Ashley saw two different versions of him, but maybe she decided to just see again the good in him. And again, like she believed that oh, people could improve, right? And uh it's not wrong.

SPEAKER_04 16:28

No.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

And of course not. We we just don't know what to do. And probably she thought that it's not something that she needed to be worried about at that time.

SPEAKER_04 16:36

Right. Well, a lot of people, you know, have difficult relationships. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad relationship.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

It's just it's probably dynamics different, right?

SPEAKER_04 16:46

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Yeah. So um how they met now, okay? This is one of the details that really changes how we understand the relationship.

SPEAKER_06 16:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

So Ashley and Jack did not first meet on a dating app as adults. Okay, they connected through Facebook in 2015.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

So Ashley saw Jack on the page of a mutual friend um and edit him as a friend. So it's just Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 17:12

So she reached out to him first. Yeah. Interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Um, so Ashley was approximately 12 years old. She was pretty young.

SPEAKER_06 17:23

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

And Jack was around 15 or 16. Oh. When she edit him as a friend. Because she just saw, oh, my friend has him as a mutual friend, and uh maybe at that time she just wanted to have a friend from another country.

SPEAKER_04 17:39

At at those ages, isn't it? I mean, like depending on where they were in their developmental stages, but usually there's a giant transition between twelve and fifteen.

SPEAKER_06 17:50

Right.

SPEAKER_04 17:51

In terms of like maturity, in terms of physical development, that sort of thing. So it's that's yeah. I wonder what they looked like at that time.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Yeah. Well, she was very young for sure when yes studied, right? And at first they were more like online pen poles, you know, like in the past, I think that was pretty it's a trend that you have friends from other countries and especially um well from the uh non-speaking, non-English speaking countries perspective. Sometimes the students like, oh, I want to practice my English and I wanna have pen polls from the other countries, or even not in that context, but I think that's something that was kind of a trend in the past a few years back to have the online. So they talk about their lives and gradually became confidants. And within a few months, Ashley was mentioning Jack to her mom, to her dad, and also her sister too.

SPEAKER_04 18:48

Okay, and what did they think initially?

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Well, her mom was pretty cautious, uh, but Jack sent uh some photographs that appeared to confirm that he really was a teenager living in England. So over time the friendship developed into a crush, and later on um they also had an on and off romantic relationship.

SPEAKER_04 19:12

That makes sense, okay. But they had never met still, obviously. No, they had not met in the city. Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

So there were periods when they did not communicate at all, you know, on and off. Uh but when they were in contact, they spoke frequently.

SPEAKER_05 19:30

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Okay. So British Columbia, as we know, it's eight hours behind England. And Ashley sometimes woke very ear woke up very early to talk to Jack while Jack stayed awake late at night.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

So that's kind of like the dynamic of um long distance relationship.

SPEAKER_06 19:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Right? Jack also sent her some gifts. Sometime he also sent her clothes, money, um, jewelry, a handbag, teddy bears.

SPEAKER_04 20:02

Interesting. Was he rich? Or was he just uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

No, okay. Exactly. But they shared a dream.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

Because even just like shipping fees internationally, I'm like, that's that's actually already expensive. Like Amazon shipping feeling.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

I don't know. Yeah. So they shared a dream that one day they would finally meet in person. Okay. Alright. Um, so although they have never been together physically, I think Ashley probably felt that he was already a major part of her life, right?

SPEAKER_04 20:38

Well, yeah, of course. She he's been there throughout her, you know, some years. Yeah, some very important developmental years in her life.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

She had known him through important parts of her adolescence. Of course, for both of them, right?

SPEAKER_03 20:51

Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

But there is a difference between knowing somebody through just conversations online and also know the people or know somebody in person.

SPEAKER_04 21:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Like their everyday life. It's it's totally agree.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

And that's why like when you know, when I was back on like dating apps, I I think that like I always tried to like get a in-person coffee date or something or whatever, like quickly because I didn't want to waste time talking like back and forth for like days on end and then meet in person and realize we have no chemistry. Because it you're right, you can you can like you can have that online dynamic, but really not. When you meet in person, it's still all right. Yeah, and you're just like, oh shit, I made a mistake. Yeah. So okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Okay. Um okay, now I wanna tell you about some parts that Ashley did not really see from Jack, right? So at the beginning I told you that Jack's personality It's like he's really charming but he could also snap um sometimes. And she could not Ashley could not observe how he behaved when let's say he got frustrated with the other people.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

He could not see how he responded when let's say a woman tried to leave a room during an argument which happened to them later on. And she did not see the complete picture of Jack's criminal history.

SPEAKER_04 22:32

Oh shit, he had a criminal history too. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yes, he does. But before we jump right to it, there is this context that in 2018, when Ashley was about 15, so they have known each other for three years online. So Ashley um asked to visit Jack in England.

SPEAKER_06 22:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

But her mom refused because she was too young. And I would do the same thing if I if I were her mom.

SPEAKER_04 23:00

15-year-old going to another country on their own. Yeah. Nah.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 23:06

I mean, it's one thing to let your 15-year-old like stay at home alone. That's fine. I mean, I don't see a problem with that, but yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

I mean, yeah, but that was the first context that she was thinking, oh, I should probably visit him in England, you know? Um, so yeah, the mom refused because she was too young, and then during the pandemic lockdowns in 2020, both of them, Ashley and Jack, began communicating seriously again. So they got an idea that, oh, let's meet soon in person.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Right? So the plan was becoming a real plan now.

SPEAKER_06 23:43

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah. But that is uh the early warning sign, or maybe not ease, but there are some early warnings about Jack's personality.

SPEAKER_04 23:54

Right. Well, I mean him well, I guess she didn't really see him snapping and stuff, but yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

That personality that I meant. Okay. So even before they met face to face, there were several signs. So Jack became jealous about boys Ashley knew in Canada. Um, and then during the argument, sometimes Ashley blocked him.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

So instead of respecting that boundary, Jack created new accounts. It's kind of like stalking her.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Oh shit, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:26

And he also contacted Ashley's friends and uh Ashley's sister to reach out.

SPEAKER_04 24:31

Under a different name or under his own name?

SPEAKER_01 24:34

His own names.

SPEAKER_04 24:35

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

But he uh tried to contact uh their f her friends and her sister. To get a hold of her. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah. So if Ashley said, I don't want to talk to you, he simply found another way around it. Oh wow. So if he she blocked uh his number, uh huh, then he would create some other accounts to get a hold of her. Wow. Like through anybody that he could think of, right?

SPEAKER_04 25:01

If you don't if she doesn't want you to talk to her anymore, just drop it. I don't get it.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Yeah, but both of them were teenagers, that's true.

SPEAKER_04 25:09

So it's probably just frontal lobes and not totally developed at the point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

I need to reach out to her and so on. So that kind of behavior can sometimes be misinterpreted as romantic persistence or I don't know, it's it to me it sounds like it's an obsession right now.

SPEAKER_04 25:30

It's no more about But you know what, you know what's really interesting is in like the in like Hollywood, for example, or like movies that we watch, they have completely shifted from the way that they used to be portrayed. So like let's say 20 years ago or something, you'd watch romantic comedy, and the girl would shut the guy down, right? They first meet, the girl shuts the guy down, and then they have the guy pursue her over and over and over, and he shows up to her work and he brings her flowers and he does all this stuff, even though she keeps saying no. And it's like, and now like people are just you know, and that was portrayed at the time as as persistence and romantic, and like, oh, he really cares, but now it's like, oh, you're creepy, yeah. Well, it's so and and it's it's probably a different context, the gift. But it's so it's so interesting to see that, right? And I wonder sometimes about like, well, you know, what is he thinking in those contexts? And you know, what what makes him think it's okay to, you know, not respect her boundaries? But it I don't know, I just I just find some of those romantic comedies a little bit promo problematic, like in the past, where they would just like not take no for an answer, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Anyway, yeah, you're right, but um maybe it's just the different years, different context. But at that time, it's probably genuine love persistence, right? Like uh I want to show her that I really love her.

SPEAKER_06 27:05

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

But the person was probably still respectful in a way that hey, I'm you know, I just want you to see this. I just want you to know that I love you.

SPEAKER_04 27:15

Yeah, yeah. But there's a difference between like doing it. I guess that's a fine line though, right? Yeah, that is a fine line for sure. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Yeah, so with that kind of thing, as you said, people might um see that Jack loves her so much because he refuses to give up. So if I were maybe Ashley's friend and I know that oh her boyfriend was trying to reach out to her through me, that is something, but I would probably have some bias, like, oh, he probably wants to just talk to her and she does not give him a chance to talk to her to to him or to her, sorry.

SPEAKER_04 27:55

Right, no, I get that. I I understand. Yeah, yeah. But I mean everyone has a different perspective, right? So yeah. Okay. So then what happened?

SPEAKER_01 28:02

So some of Ashley's friends also reported that um Jack's attention was becoming more obsessive than loving. So in 2018, he tattooed Ashley's first name on his arm.

SPEAKER_04 28:17

Oh wow. And this is while they were broken up, like while she was blocking him.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Um they're on and off. Like we don't really know like in which months that they're on the relationship, and or they broke up for a little while and then they came back. But in 2018, he tattooed Ashley's uh first name on his arm.

SPEAKER_06 28:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

Okay. But I don't know, the intensity is probably not the same as intimacy.

SPEAKER_05 28:41

I know, probably not.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Yeah. So in March 2021, Jack reportedly sent Ashley a threatening voice message about one of her male friends and said he would kill her.

SPEAKER_04 28:58

Oh, wait, he said he would kill Ashley? Mm-hmm. Oh fuck. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

So that was that was a sign, right? There be even before they met in person.

SPEAKER_04 29:07

Oh wow. Wow, wow, wow. Okay. And she's still like that is a huge red flag.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

That's a huge red flag.

SPEAKER_04 29:15

It doesn't matter how mad you are, if you say you're gonna kill someone, like that is not okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Yeah, but when people are in love, they sometimes are just blind.

SPEAKER_04 29:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

And especially if uh this is your first love as a teenager, for example. I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 29:29

Yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Okay, now let's let's talk about Jack's history.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

We come to the information already, right, that Ashley and her family apparently did not fully know about Jack's criminal history, and who thought about that, right?

SPEAKER_04 29:44

Yeah. Of course. You wouldn't assume, especially for like a teenager, right? You wouldn't assume that they had a criminal past already.

SPEAKER_06 29:51

Like anyway.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Yeah, by the time Ashley traveled to England, Jack already had a criminal record. At his sentencing, the court heard that he had eight previous convictions covering twelve offenses.

SPEAKER_04 30:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

That's a lot.

SPEAKER_04 30:09

Holy shit, what were those convictions for?

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Um, his record included harassment, criminal damage, and uh breaches of restraining orders.

SPEAKER_04 30:20

Oh wow. Holy shit, did Ashley know about all this stuff, or did anyone know about this, like these convictions and stuff? You said he she didn't know like the full history, but did she know any of this?

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Well, it says in the report at his sentencing, right. So they knew like very very late about the criminals. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

So this is the first time they found out okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

And he had also been subject to several restraining orders involving family members or former partners.

unknown 30:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

And uh yeah, I want to be careful here because not every claim reported about him resulted in a conviction.

SPEAKER_06 30:56

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

But even though we see um there are eight covering twelve offenses, so that's a lot of disturbing. In one earlier case, Jack was charged with false imprisonment, common assault, and coercive or controlling behavior involving a former partner.

unknown 31:18

Fuck.

SPEAKER_04 31:19

Guaranteed if the parents knew any of this. Well, they would not let her fly to England. Like you get you have parents that are gonna be like they're gonna be like, hell no, I'm not letting you go anywhere near that guy.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

You probably can find um other Canadian guys. Yeah, pretty sure.

SPEAKER_04 31:42

Pretty sure she can find someone else. Someone else out of the you know, eight billion people on the planet or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 31:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Yeah, and uh there are some reports, for example, another former partners of Jack reported that he had put a hand around her throat, prevented her from leaving, and repeatedly contacted her after she escaped.

SPEAKER_05 32:06

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Damn, that's another woman um also reported that Jack smashed two of her phones and threatened her with a knife.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

Holy crap.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

I know it's disturbing.

SPEAKER_03 32:23

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

And those accounts are not convictions?

SPEAKER_04 32:28

Not convictions, but they know about them from the record. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Yeah. But when they are considered alongside his confirmed convictions and restraining orders, we could really see the visible pattern about Jack's behavior.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

So so we know everything. So yeah, exactly. I but like so we know that you know they had this long-standing relationship and she wanted to go see him. Her parents wouldn't let her when she was 15 or whatever. Um he did have some past that he kind of hid from her. But what you know, we haven't even heard about the crime yet, or like what happened when they were in England. So like what happened there?

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Yeah. So let's jump to when Ashley traveled to England. In November 2021, Ashley traveled to England on a six-month visitor arrangement.

SPEAKER_06 33:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

So based on the strongest reporting, this was the very first time Ashley and Jack met face to face after probably about six years of online dating through Facebook, right?

SPEAKER_06 33:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Um, so Jack met her at the airport, and then Ashley changed her Facebook profile photograph to a picture of two of them. You know, like it's but it was very exciting for somebody who finally sees the person in person.

SPEAKER_02 33:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Yeah. And she moved into his one-bedroom home on Tennyson Road in Kelmsford. And at first, the visit seemed exciting. They explored England, they visited London, uh-huh, um, they took photographs together, they adopted a kitten. It's looked like, yeah, she's really ready to move forward. Yeah, it sounds like it's moving forward, yeah, for sure. Okay. And Ashley appeared cheerful when she spoke with her family about him and about her experience in England.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Yep. Um, but the question again is we really don't know what they are facing because people just see the post from social media and they look very happy. And those moments maybe were genuine at some point, but then maybe we're not. We don't know what's inside, right?

SPEAKER_04 34:49

That's true, you have no clue. Some of the some of the happiest couples you see on quote unquote happiest on Instagram or like Facebook or whatever, there's some of the most like, you know, not not disturbing, but you know, problematic relationships that you see sometimes, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Maybe, right?

SPEAKER_04 35:08

But sometimes they're awesome. So you never know. Awesome. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Yeah. So she may have felt very happy during those moments, but the photographs capture just again seconds. Um uh those pictures, I don't know about that entire relationship. And then another detail was Jack was unemployed.

SPEAKER_04 35:26

Ah, okay, so he is okay. Because remember, I asked if he was rich earlier. Yeah. I mean, maybe his parents are, I don't know, but maybe his parents are. So how did he have a place if he was unemployed? I guess.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

I don't know for that detail.

SPEAKER_04 35:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

But Ashley could not work either while visiting, right?

SPEAKER_03 35:45

Right, okay. Of course.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

She didn't have any status, so she could not work while visiting. Jack was unemployed. So they spent nearly all the time together. Um Jack had a few friends and increasingly did not want to go out. So he and they uh started isolating isolating themselves.

SPEAKER_04 36:04

Everyone else. And that's dangerous because uh then the the only social surrounding you have is with the person that you're with.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 36:14

Those and you and you stop, you know, recognizing what's normal and what's not.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Well, for a lot of people or internationals, if they don't really have friends around, then social will be uh the places for them to connect with friends and family, right? So I think it makes sense that Ashley put pictures on uh the social media and all that because you know it will trigger some interactions with her former friends or the family back home and see how they're doing.

SPEAKER_04 36:45

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Yeah. Okay. So um Jack did not like when Ashley was speaking with the neighbors as well, and he did not want her attending church or socializing with people she knew through church.

SPEAKER_04 36:56

It's like when we talk about cults, like they they they you know, the the leaders often. Yeah, they they try to isolate everyone from society so that no one will tell them that what they're doing is not okay. Right? So, yeah, that sounds like what he's doing too.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Yeah, so Ashley was in another country, no other people that uh she was allowed to socialize.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

And that's pretty intimidating, you know?

SPEAKER_03 37:25

Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:26

Of course. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Um by December 2021, so remember she went to England in November.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

On November 2021. And by December 2021, Jack's behavior had escalated into physical violence.

SPEAKER_04 37:42

After only a month.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

After only a month of uh them knowing each other in person.

SPEAKER_04 37:47

Wow. Okay, that's that is that is like if that's not a red flag to get the hell out of there.

SPEAKER_06 37:53

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 37:54

Oh, and I'm not victim blaming by any by any chance, just you know, for anyone listening, don't don't don't ever stick around for that.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Yeah. So on Boxing Day, um, he reportedly sent his mom a message admitting that he had hit Ashley.

SPEAKER_05 38:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

So he told his mom what he did to her.

SPEAKER_05 38:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

And he had become angry after discovering that. And years earlier, Ashley had blocked two British phone numbers. And Jack assumed that the numbers belonged to other men. So he probably thought at that time that she was cheating with um the other two British men.

SPEAKER_04 38:35

It could have just been spam.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Could be, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:38

I mean, that happens all the time.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

Well, they could communicate. But again, they were teenagers, baby.

SPEAKER_04 38:42

Okay, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

And around this time, Ashley began saving photographs of her bruises in a private Snapchat folder.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Oh good.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

Um, she told her sister about some of what what was happening.

SPEAKER_02 38:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

But Ashley reportedly threatened to stop speaking to her sister if her si if her sister told um their mom.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:06

That's uh that's yeah, that's not good.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Yeah. Why do you think she protects him though after he hurt her?

SPEAKER_04 39:13

Well, people man, human psychology is very, very complex. I think um, you know, she probably wanted to protect there's there's multiple things that could be happening, right? But one of the possibilities is that um she's we've talked about like, you know, sunk cost reasoning before, right? Where you basically you've put so much time and energy or whatever resources into something. And even though you know that if you go do something else, like intuitively you know that it will make you happier, right? Yeah, you still have this tendency to think, well, you know, I've already gone this far.

SPEAKER_06 39:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:00

You're right, you're right. It's like it's it's very, very difficult. And also her perception of what is normal and what's not, because she's been isolated, is also heavily skewed, right? So now she doesn't really, you know, she so she there's tons of things like that happening. And then, you know, you described her as this person that was very kind and social, and you know, and and maybe she thought she could change him, right? Yeah, it could be one of those things where she was like, Well, you know, he's got some trauma that he's got to deal with, and that's fine, he could improve, and maybe yeah, he could improve and I can fix it.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

He will heal someday. Yeah, well, I think your reasons, uh the ones that you just share, all of them are valid because we could really understand. She told her family that, oh, this guy is a really nice guy. I have been dating for several years, and I have now eventually I have met him in person, so she probably also wants to kind of protect not only about their relationship but the image that people know about him, and especially she traveled abroad internationally. That's a huge effort. It's not him coming to see her, it's her coming to see him.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

Right, right, right. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

That's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Yeah, it's it's just a very complicated situation.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Um, in early January, the violence also happened again, and Jack reportedly struck Ashley in the head with a heavy glass beer muck.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

And Ashley called her sister crying.

SPEAKER_02 41:36

Shit.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

And Jack then made her clean up the broken glass.

SPEAKER_04 41:40

Well, made her clean it up. Continued showering. Like, oh, you I like he smashes it and it's like now clean that up. Like, what?

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:50

Man, it's so sad to see how like how brainwashed a lot of these people become, like, with situations of abuse like that. Yeah. Man. Yeah. Okay. That's horrible.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

And then Ashley's sister also told her to just come back to Canada as soon as possible. It's not safe there. So I could I could understand how worried she uh was about Ashley being there.

SPEAKER_06 42:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Yeah. But shortly afterward, another apparently calm period followed. So the violence and then going down again, just normal situation, another violence. So that kind of dynamic is not healthy. Right?

SPEAKER_03 42:31

Yeah, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

But then after that, Ashley posted happy photographs again because of that moment. Yeah. I don't know if it's just I don't know if we can describe that as a pull and push relationship or what.

SPEAKER_04 42:43

I would say so, yeah. Could be or could just be her trying to justify staying in a negative environment. Yeah. She'll she'll latch on to the positive aspects of the relationship, even if they're very few and far between.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

Yeah. Well, that must be very confusing too to the family, uh to Ashley's family, because their sister knows about what had happened.

SPEAKER_04 43:11

Um but that'd be so hard to be happy.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

So do I believe in what she said or you know? So one day uh Ashley is sounded frightened. The next day the photographs look normal, happy. But I would say that's kind of like abusive relationships already.

SPEAKER_04 43:30

If you knew that like right now, like your sister, for example, was in an abusive relationship like that, would you go fly home and even if she said don't say anything, wouldn't you just go?

SPEAKER_01 43:44

Oh, I would.

SPEAKER_04 43:45

I absolutely would. I would. I if one of my siblings was in an abusive relationship and I just and they're just like, Yeah, don't tell anyone, don't worry, like I'm fine, and then like was posting all these happy things after being beaten, I would probably say, uh I don't Like I wouldn't tell them. I would just go and then I would show up at their door and be like, hey, we gotta get out of here. Like this is crazy. Don't put up with that.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

Yeah, but I have watched some podcasts about leaving an abusive relationship. It's really, really hard, right? Because you've been attached to that person, and maybe that kind of dynamics of pull and push has been your new normal.

SPEAKER_04 44:22

Mm-hmm. And the other thing too is that like now that like in the the the victim in these cases too has to be willing to actually leave too, right? So we say that you know, I'm saying, like, oh yeah, I'd go fly out and tell them like we gotta go. But like of course I'm not gonna, you know, force anyone to do anything. I would try to get them, but you know, to get them to come home, but like I'm not, you know, they're only gonna they're not gonna listen unless they want to, right?

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Like, so yeah, it should it should be. They have to make a decision.

SPEAKER_04 44:53

Yeah, exactly. Because even if you like literally dragged them out of there, like they would just go back if they weren't ready, you know.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Yeah, you're right. It's kind of the cycle that could be in repeat. Exact until the person said, Okay, this is enough for me. Enough is enough, you know. But it will take some time for most people.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

And a few days before her death now, Ashley actually um secretly left the house while Jack was away.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

So she was trying to escape from that. But she probably didn't think that she would die, right? Right. She kind of noticed that, okay, I think um it's crossed the line and I need to make a move.

SPEAKER_04 45:36

Yeah, so she was making some plans to leave, is what it sounds like. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

So she met two church friends in a local park. Yep. Um, and these two friends sense that, oh, something was wrong. And about a week before she died, Ashley told her mom that the relationship was not going well, and she really wanted to come home.

SPEAKER_02 45:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

So Ashley's family has got a sense that, okay, something is not going right. Um my daughter told me about this, but they got a plan. So she has got a plan to come back to Canada. By February 1st, her family understood that the situation had become dangerous.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

And the family did arrange a flight for Ashley to leave England two days later.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

Really? Mm-hmm. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

So Jack knew that she planned to leave.

SPEAKER_04 46:34

And that's probably what sparked whatever happened. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

So he snapped.

SPEAKER_04 46:40

He snapped because he realized that he was gonna be left and he could not accept that.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

At sentencing, the judge later described him as facing the imminent loss of control over Ashley. Okay. Um, well, this is not just a loss of relationship, but maybe for Jack, this is a lot of the the loss of control because he likes to control people or the world.

SPEAKER_04 47:10

A lot of a lot of these cases tend to revolve around that control, yeah. Power control, trying to, you know, make sure that the narrative is the way they want it to go. And if it if anything falls out of place, it's like this big chaotic thing that kind of like puts them into a spiral.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:29

But so what happened exactly? How did how did she die?

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Early on the morning of February 1st, 2022. It was okay. She came there in November, November, December, January, February. Um, a neighbor heard a woman screaming. And Ashley went to the neighbor's home. She was really scared. Um, she was hysterical. Ashley said Jack had bitten her.

SPEAKER_05 47:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

She also said he had thrown their kitten against a wall. Wow. You could imagine that.

SPEAKER_04 48:03

Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

He threw a kitten against the wall. It's just like in the movie that I watched.

SPEAKER_04 48:08

Wow. I think of the scene from like um I mean, it's not, you know, it's that scene from uh, what is it? The Anchor Man, where like Jack Black takes the dog and like kicks him over the bridge. It's it's funny because it's so outrageous, right? Like, who the hell would ever do that? That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:27

Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Yeah. So she ran to the neighbors, she told the neighbors what happened. Yeah, then Ashley said something terrifying, and she believed that Jack was going to kill her.

SPEAKER_04 48:37

Oh shit. And she told the neighbor this.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the neighbor offered to take Ashley with her to a medical appointment, but she refused. So Ashley refused the offer. She also asked the neighbor not to call police.

SPEAKER_04 48:51

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

You know?

SPEAKER_04 48:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

Um, the neighbor then went next door and spoke to Jack. And I think they're just trying to calm him down, and Jack appeared calm. He apologized. And the neighbor left for her appointment um at approximately 9:30 that morning.

SPEAKER_04 49:11

Right, but that probably just pissed Jack off even more.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:15

Right? Because now she's involving other people, and he's probably gonna say, Oh, this makes me look bad, and blah, blah, blah, and then blame her for like her running away to someone else. Like, dude, it's not it's just yeah, but also it gave Jack another opportunity, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:35

Because the neighbor left the house for whatever reasons, because maybe the neighbor just thought it well, you know, it's just a normal situation.

SPEAKER_04 49:42

Yeah, if you think he's calm and he's gonna run away, he's and he's you know, he's like, Okay, yeah, the it's been diffused, everything should be good. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

Yeah, so she offered Ashley somewhere to go, like the neighbor, but nope. Um she confronted Jack. She may not have understood how immediate the danger was. That's the neighbor's situation. And Ashley also had asked her not to call the police. Um you know, just kind of like complicated situation. Um afterward, Ashley used Jack's phone to call her family in Canada. So I think Ashley got a little bit of chance. So she took uh his phone to call the family in Canada, and because of the time difference, it was around midnight in Canada.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Yeah. Um Ashley. And they didn't get the phone call. Nope. Ashley said she really wanted to come home.

SPEAKER_04 50:34

Shit. So she left like a voicemail or anything?

SPEAKER_01 50:38

A message.

SPEAKER_04 50:39

Yeah, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Yeah. So, um, yeah, that is the emergency messages approximately around 11 22 a.m. and 12 30 p.m.

SPEAKER_04 50:52

I feel so horrible for the family.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

I know.

SPEAKER_04 50:57

Because imagine getting that message the next day and then realizing that like and you're gonna be thinking, like, oh, I could have done something, but like you can never blame yourself for that. Like, but I don't know, I would probably be tempted to blame myself too, even though I shouldn't. It's just like I don't it's human nature, right? You you try to like say, Well, I I could have done all of these different things, but like it doesn't change the outcome that Jack was the one that did this. Yeah, you know, he was he he's the the perpetrator, he's the one that caused everything.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Yeah, yeah. She uh tried to reach out to relatives in uh BC and uh Ashley also tried to even contact the church in Clamsford, and one of the messages was it's Ashley. I need your help. It's an emergency, please. Oh yeah. Okay. So the thing is she had recognized the danger. Yeah. Um she had asked for help. Her flight had been booked as well.

SPEAKER_02 52:09

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

But then something happened inside the house, right? So Jack strangled Ashley. He then retrieved a kitchen knife and also attacked her repeatedly.

SPEAKER_05 52:27

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

The sentence in court heard that Ashley uh suffered um approximately 90 wounds.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

Holy crap.

SPEAKER_04 52:35

Yeah. So she was fighting probably and probably and he was his his scrap and he just went at it at her. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 52:50

Yeah, and the judge later called it brutal and cowardly. Again, Ashley was 19 years old and uh she was attacked because she was preparing to return home.

SPEAKER_04 53:00

Yeah, someone like that that can't control their temper and they've had multiple convictions and issues in the past, no, they cannot be in really bad. They cannot be in society. Yeah. That's just wild. Yeah. Well, I hope you got life in prison without any possibility of parole. Is that what happened?

SPEAKER_01 53:22

We'll see here.

SPEAKER_04 53:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

Um so remember that Ashley sent some messages to the family and relatives back in Canada, right?

SPEAKER_06 53:30

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01 53:31

Finally, the Ashley's family eventually woke and saw the emergency messages and then they contacted Jamie. So Jamie, I think Jamie was one of Ashley's local church friends in uh in Clamsford. And Jamie went to the house with another friend and two men from the church. Uh their intention was to remove Ashley from the house and take her somewhere safe.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

Right. Yeah. So it was too late at that point.

SPEAKER_01 53:58

Yeah, in England. Basically help her. Nobody answered the door, and then Jamie called the police. So to answer the question clearly, Ashley's church friend called police after Ashley's family saw the emergency messages and asked local friends to check the house.

SPEAKER_02 54:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

So then police got the message. Police arrived shortly after 4 p.m. Um officers forced entry at about 4 13 and Jack was still inside.

SPEAKER_04 54:30

Ah, that uh that's what I was gonna ask next. Did he like stay inside? Like what did he try to cover things up or was she just still there?

SPEAKER_01 54:38

No, apparently he did not try to cover things up.

SPEAKER_04 54:40

So what was he doing?

SPEAKER_01 54:43

I don't know. He was probably just you know, like thought, whoa, what did I just do? But immediately before the officers entered, he had been on a FaceTime call with his sister. So Jack told his sister what he did to Ashley.

SPEAKER_04 54:56

Oh. And what was he like remorseful at least, or was he I mean, not that it makes any difference to the outcome, but uh you know it's a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

Well, he appeared calm, that's what the report said.

SPEAKER_04 55:10

Calm.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

Mm-hmm. He called his sister, he even showed uh Ashley's body to his sister through the uh FaceTime call. And officers found Ashley on the bed. Yeah, so the paramedics attempted to save Ashley, but she was pronounced dead at the scene. And uh Jack told the officers that he had gone psychotic. He admitted that he had strangled and stabbed Ashley. So he did not come for anything, he just s admitted guilty um later on in the court.

SPEAKER_04 55:46

Sounds like he just couldn't control his anger.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:51

It sounds like that's a r you know a common theme in his life. He can't seem to control his it makes you wonder about like his you know, his brain and like how it functions relative to like most other people, right? We have you know the our frontal lobes and our executive functions, um, and we have things that allow us to inhibit or suppress those urges that we shouldn't be doing. But some people have dysfunctional frontal um processing that does not you know doesn't work as well and and and you know allows those urges to sort of go through.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

Yeah. Yeah. So talking about the mental health and the legal responsibility, uh Jack actually claimed that he had been intoxicated and he had lost control. Um that is the toxicology report as well. The toxicology uh report shows that he was detected cannabis and um some amount of anti-anxiety medication. He underwent psychiatric evaluation and he was found fit to plead and stand trial.

SPEAKER_02 57:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 57:06

Okay. So they I think they assume that well, you should be responsible for what happened. It's not somebody who does not have a lot of people. It's not like he doesn't know what he's doing, yeah, exactly. Yeah, for mental health or something. Yeah. So mental illness does not automatically mean a person cannot understand right. No, exactly. Yeah, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 57:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 57:28

Yeah. So Jack Zapel was charged with murder and held in custody in September 2022. He appeared at Clamsford Crown Court. When the murder change was put to him, he pleaded guilty because he admitted the crime. There was no full murder trial. The prosecution did not need to prove the case before a jury, and uh witnesses did not have to testify through every detail of the relationship.

SPEAKER_04 57:55

Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

And the court then just moved to sentencing. And uh his plea was considered the judge calculated the minimum term. A guilty plea uh can receive sentencing credit because it avoids a trial and prevents witness and so on, right?

SPEAKER_06 58:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

So Jack would still be sentenced to life imprisonment.

SPEAKER_04 58:17

Oh good.

SPEAKER_01 58:18

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 58:19

Okay. Life imprisonment, but does he have the possibility of parole after a certain number of years? Like, so if he, you know, is under if he's in prison for a certain amount of time, he can be let free.

SPEAKER_01 58:32

Yeah. If he's like on good report. Okay. Um on October 10, 2022, Mr. Justice Moray sentenced him to life imprisonment with a minimum term of 23 years and six months. Uh okay, so it's not a parole board would assess whether he remained dangerous.

SPEAKER_04 58:51

Right, so he does have parole plus. He does have, yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Yeah, he must have at least that period before he can first be considered for parole. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:59

Okay. Well, at least 23 years is a long time, right? Years and six months. Wow. Wow, wow, wow.

SPEAKER_01 59:07

Yeah. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 59:08

That's a that's a tough one. Holy.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:12

Damn. Well, thank you for telling me that crime. It was I know. It's yeah, it's a it's a dark they're all dark. They're all dark cases where it's but this one, you know, at least this one wasn't premeditated, you know, like the others that we've talked about, where people do things and plan things out and like it's super. No, I think it's a person who snapped who cannot control the emotion, the anger, and yeah, exactly, which is which is much well to me, uh, you know, it's not as bad as someone who's actively planning to do things, right? Because then you can't even argue that that you lost control. You didn't lose control, you just actively tried to do something. It's like you're you're fully aware of everything you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Yeah. So yeah, that's today's case on Tell Me the Crime. It's about in international love that does not turn well.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:12

Yeah, well, we're a different case. So we're not like that at all. No, no, no, no, we're not.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

But I could really understand though, like the excitement of uh Ashley the guy in person.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:26

It's so sad.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

Yeah, it's really sad. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:28

Yeah. So anyone internationally going to visit someone they've never met before, please do your research.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

Be careful.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:37

And always have an out. You know, make sure you're talking to your family and friends constantly. Don't let them isolate you. That's when it becomes dangerous. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:47

So that's true. That's why, like in the maybe visa applications or kind of PR or or citizenship applications, now the um officers would like to assess the socials and oh yeah. Real proof of the relationship.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:04

Right, right, right. That's fair. Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. All right. Well, thank you, everyone, and uh yeah, we'll see you next week for Tell Me the Crime.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:15

Bye.