Ep. 15: Melissa's story & how your brain remembers pain

In today's episode, Amy is joined by Melissa Melia Dunn—a registered psychotherapist in Hamilton, Ontario, with a private practice supporting teens, adults, and couples. She has a specific niche: women and couples experiencing chronic pelvic pain and endometriosis. She wasn't always a therapist—she spent years in event planning, working with organizations like Free the Children and Lululemon before making the shift to therapy during the pandemic. What drew her to this specific work was her own 20-year endometriosis diagnosis journey. In this episode, Melissa breaks down how the nervous system works, why pain persists even after surgery, and why endometriosis is actually a chronic pain condition that needs to be treated differently than the medical system currently treats it.

Key Components:

• Her 20-year endometriosis journey and the moment she realized nobody explained it as chronic pain.
• How your brain generates pain even after surgery, and why intercourse can hurt after a hysterectomy when "everything is fixed."
• The nervous system's job is to keep you safe, not just to hurt: How emotional safety, relationships, and life stress directly impact pelvic pain.
• Endometriosis is being treated like a structural problem when it's also a nervous system problem. There's a gap in how we approach chronic pelvic pain.

"There's this chronic pain experience, and there are so many tools that we can do. But because this is women only, the research gaps mean we're behind the scene."

Connect with Melissa on Instagram
Check out Melissa's workshop on neuroplastic pain

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🤘 Podcast produced by Binge-Worthy Studio

For informational and entertainment purposes only — not medical advice. We're here to get loud, not to play doctor.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:45

I am so excited to welcome today's guest to the show. I'll be honest, I'm a bit of a stalk, I'm a bit of a stalker, a safe stalker, but a bit of a stalker. I'm always watching for incredible women doing work that stops me in my tracks. And Melissa did exactly that. She's a registered psychotherapist with a private practice in Hamilton, Ontario, where she supports women and couples navigating chronic pelvic pain and endometriosis. And she does it with a level of nuance that I genuinely did not know existed until I talked to her. Before she became a therapist, she spent years inside of some of Canada's most impactful organizations, from the Wii organization to Women's Executive Network to Lululemon. Always finding ways to create ripple effects in people's lives, always drawn to the impact underneath the work. She is also an endo warrior herself and a mom to two kids and a brand new double doodle named Penny. Who knew double doodles was a thing? This conversation is one I wish I'd had 20 years ago. We talk about chronic pain, the nervous system, and what medical gaslighting actually does to your body and why your body is often the wisest thing in the room. If you learn to listen, this is the Down There Aware podcast, and I'm Amy Milne. It's time to get loud. I am so excited to welcome Melissa to the show. Melissa, welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to have you here. I am like it comes up on some of the podcasts, and you know, I've been known as a bit of a stalker and but like a safe stalker. And so I was, you know, watching, I'm I'm always looking for incredible women that I find a connection with, and it is online. Never was an online dater. I married my high school boyfriend, so didn't really quite get that. But I'm meeting some incredible women, and you were one that I reached out to and said, would you be so bold and brave to join me on the podcast? So thank you. And so tell me and the listeners a little bit about who you are.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Sure. Yeah, and thank you again. It's such a pleasure to be here, and I love the work you're up to. Thank you. Um I guess to start, part of the reason I'm here today is because what I do for work. So I'll start with I'm a registered psychotherapist and I have a private practice in Hamilton, Ontario. I support teens, adults, and couples on like a wide, wide range of life's challenges, but I have a niche area where I support um women and couples experiencing chronic pelvic pain and endometriosis as well. Um beyond all of that work, I have two kiddos, a brand new puppy, um, and super active. Love pickleball and hiking and all the I always say like from May to October, you can just find me outside if I'm not sleeping.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Um yeah, I'm married to my husband Taylor as well. Um trying to think. It's a hard, it's a big question, but that's that's okay. We'll unpack it. What kind of puppy did you get? Oh, she's a double doodle. They're calling her because her old her parents are doodles. She's at my feet right now. She's her name is Penny, and it's been a wild, chaotic, cuddly adventure since we got her.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

So you've added like because how old are your kids? They're seven and nine. Okay, so they're high functioning, and then you add a puppy to your life. So the things we do, right? Um okay, tell me about your pro. I mean, I love so tell me how how did you get into psychotherapy? Because we were chatting a little bit before you put press record and you didn't start there. So tell me a bit about your journey there.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

So I was one of those people that just have never known what I wanted to do going into university. It was sort of like throwing spaghetti and seeing what sticks. So I had like a really broad communications, global studies background, and then I went into corporate events. I told you, um I was in the not-profit, not for profit world, and then I went to corporate and worked at a company that promoted and supported women getting into executive roles and helping diversify Canada's boards. Um, I've always been somebody who wants to align my work to things I'm passionate about. Happened to be organized. Uh, the events world just sort of like naturally drew on my strengths. But that corporate, the corporate hours, the high pressure of events um was tough too. I think like tough. I now I know it's tough on my nervous system. I wouldn't have had those words at in my early 20s or late 20s. Um, and so then I actually shifted to um working for Lululemon and and all throughout that, it was all like I was in people leadership um at the same time and more mentorship. And it was always the people, like the connection, the um having conversations about their growth, uh, cultures, like the systems that we work in was always what lit me up or fired me up. And so working at Lululemon was sort of this like stretch of what it would it be like to work for a system that sort of like promotes personal growth and blends as corporate and personal, like getting to be the same person in your personal life and your work world was such a foreign concept um at the time. And then um I had two um two young kids at the time um in 2020, and um pan pandemic came around and just like offered this standstill. And I was like, okay, I think um I gotta make a big change here. And and I knew my kid, kids were gonna be in daycare and um thinking ahead to school hours and corporate world, and I just like got, I knew my own priorities. I was like, there's just there has to be a way where it feels balanced and I feel like I'm spending the time I want to, and so then um feel very privileged and lucky to be able to do so. But I just stepped away from work to complete my master's of psychology and counseling. Um, well, I could be home with my kids. Um not an easy feat. Think I didn't quite realize what that was gonna take. But then after three years, um I worked uh a lot more actually in um family and child therapy. Um, as a young parent, it felt like the most natural. And I I still love that work, um, especially working with parents. Um, and eventually opened my private practice when I was fully licensed. And yeah, it is, I adore the work. I love everything about it. Um, it challenges me. It um, but it's a pretty unique career in that like I'm constantly growing as a person or seeing myself in different ways. And any learning related to this career is like a beautiful way of showing up in my personal life and who I am as a parent and a friend. So I feel very lucky um that I've landed here.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

That's beautiful. Tell me, there's so much I want to ask you. Tell me about why you help couples and women with endometriosis.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, gosh, it's it's a loaded question because it speaks to so much of how things shows up in endometriosis and how complex it really is. Like I think we hear this idea of endometriosis as complex, but we hear a lot more of the medical side around complex inflammatory, there's lesions, um, there can be cysts, uh, there can be immune gut um complexities as well. But there is so much in um, I think I'll likely talk a lot more about this uh while we're together, but this nerve our nervous systems are designed to assess, take in, gather information on all parts of our life. It doesn't just um, they don't have it doesn't have like compartmentalizing abilities, basically. And so um it's also soaking up data in our relationships, how we're treated by others, um, what the asks of us are, how many, how many roles we're juggling, but especially that sense of emotional safety. And so how is communication showing up, how are needs being heard, um, how is pleasure being prioritized impacts um pain during intimacy as well. And this idea of again the complexities. If we have been like uh dismissed or minimized, or experiences along a diagnosis journey have um sort of been swept aside, um that also has a ripple effect in our personal life, right? If a doctor isn't um taking this on with urgency or curiosity or validation, where's that trust that my partner will or my friends will? And so there's like a disintegration of support in multiple areas. And so I do most of my work with individuals. But if there's a partner that's able to be there and has capacity for that and readiness, we can talk about emotional safety and listening and attunement and all like the amazing things that actually our nervous system then um feels and hears and sees as safety, which then impacts the body and our pain system too.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

I wish you were around when I was younger. Like I'm I'm like emotionally caught up in everything that you just said because there's so much that I don't even think I knew until I started really diving into this work in terms of meeting people like you and understanding other people's stories. And you know, before we press record, like we were chatting. Like I thought, well, I was the only one in my group of friends who had anything like this, and I was lucky I probably chose right, but that you know, my partner supported the pain journey and which I was on. However, I've realized as I'm experiencing this in a different way now, how much I didn't share. And I'm not trying, not living in like that re-injury world of like making stuff up, or did I feel? But it's like the nervous system of, but these are the questions you have in your head, right? In terms of like, I'm sure you hear this when you're talking, but like, did I make it up? Was it real? Was I in more pain than I thought I was? Maybe I wasn't in a lot of pain. Like these are all the things, and so it's it's it's actually I find I'm going through more now of like actually processing what happened to me for the first, like for those last 30 years of my life. And it's it's it's very, it's very weird. It it's because I don't have the words to describe it other than it's super weird. Um But talk to me a little bit about nervous system. Like I want I we can go back to the endo piece and the therapy, but uh nervous system right now is like another thing people are talking about a lot. And I've done a lot of work in that space, but I think some people who are like, I know I have girlfriends who are like, what are you talking about? You just go dance really weird in your kitchen. Like, what is this nervous system thing? So talk to me a bit more about nervous system for sure.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Oh, I love that. And you're so right. It nervous system is having a moment. I feel like there's all these things on social media of like just shake. Just be at yourself. Exactly. Um, but what a good, yeah, what a good point. Um, yeah, so our nervous system is our nervous system and our brain are um the key components of how our body, our bodies generate pain and sensation. And I always add that word. Um ultimately sensation are like okay, let me start, let me rewind a little bit. I always I'm getting excited about this, but this idea of if so, our nervous system runs into every single part of our body, and there's these little gnosy scepters, they're called, little detectors that sense temperature, pressure, mechanical changes. So if we if we're in the pain world, I'll describe that first and then I'll talk a little bit more about nervous system and things like anxiety or um sensation. If it, if we noticed a pressure or an inflammation, or let's say we just bump our hand really hard, then sensation goes up to the brain first. The brain takes on, okay, what does this mean? What do I need to know about this? And then the brain is sending down signals, and that's what's generating the pain. It isn't actually coming from our hand that's hurt, or let's say in our pelvis. Um, it's our pelvis isn't actually generating the brain. Our brain is taking on a huge role basically translating and understanding it and then sending out a protective sensation so we can do something about it. And so, but then beyond that, beyond if we're injured or we're detecting pain, there is our brains are constantly trying. You we can picture one of those, let's say an old-fashioned scale where two things are getting weighed, right? A tipping, it's constantly trying to decide um what is dangerous and what is safe. And it's just tipping like this, trying to level, trying to level. How safe are we or what's dangerous? And it's its number one job is to detect danger so that it can keep us safe. And so if we think of this, it shows up in relationships, places of work, um, back when we were in school, or if you're still in school, um, in our in everyday things we do, right? We're constantly detecting, like, let's say we're even driving a car and we see someone speeding a little bit, right? It is like it's a 24-7 hour job soaking in data and then sending us little sensations. So maybe that's a little increase of a heart rate. Or if we're in this a peak season of life, I don't know about you, but June with young kids is like, ha ha.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Yeah. I've got the older kids, but I'm like, I've got a kid graduating and turning 18. I'm like, what is happening? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Yes. So like June. Like, like, yeah, maybe it's just you're required over you're required to overfunction in a way, right? Hold more than we feel is capacity. And so maybe there some bodies might show that as a knot in the stomach or a bit of guarding or tightness. Maybe there's like shoulders or head. That is all your nervous system activated, just saying, like, what do we got to do? Extra boost energy. Uh, we're online, basically. Does that help answer? Or it didn't just say, Do you want me to revisit anything?

SPEAKER_00 15:01

No, no, that's I love that. And and I always think it's so interesting as I'm learning more and getting deeper into it, is that it's it's our it's our brains. Like, I was just like, as you're speaking, I'm thinking about, you know, like when you burn your tongue, when you have tea and it hurts for a little bit and then it goes away. It's like, so why did it hurt in that moment and then doesn't like pain is so interesting because like it hurts in that moment, but then it doesn't hurt anymore. Yeah. And so, like, why? And so did I just forget about it? Like, it's so interesting when you start to like pay attention to it. Because then what I would ask is so then, so those are the moments where we, you know, that immediate pain, but then talk to me more about what stays in our system. Like when our nervous system, like when we're talking, like when I'm like, we can revisit the pain that we felt, or like I'll use my own personal experience as an example that might be helpful. So I no longer have a uterus, had a hysterectomy, and oddly enough, intercourse became painful again. And it was like, but why those things got removed, everything got fixed. And then as I learned and went to my pelvic health specialist, and I was speaking to my doctor, and it was some of that was like my body was holding on to that.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Yeah.

unknown 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Talk to me a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

So if we're injured, there's three types of pain, basically. Um, and so no susceptive is that let's say there's an injury, we get a sprained ankle, we burn our hand. There's something that our body basically sends out a sensation, and then our body goes through recovery, right? And so that should last um between three to six months. Um, obviously, depending on the scale of injury, there's basically a time frame where that those gnosi scepters and your pain system just does its job, and then we should be pain-free. But if we've experienced pain for longer than three to six months, which on the grand scale of things, when we're talking about periods and having pain for 20 years, some case, like my own diagnosis journey was 20 years. Um, talk about longer than three to six months. Um Right. Yeah, the math kind of works there, yeah. Um, and so in after six months or even three to six months, our brain starts playing a bigger, a bigger role in the pain generation. Um, and so there's actually there's research where scans of the brain are lighting up and the prefrontal cortex and the meaning making and memory start getting involved. And so, again, there's let's say a sensation um uh maybe during or after intercourse or just periods as well. It's sending it up. And rather than just saying, ooh, inflammation or ooh, pressure, it's what's the history with intercourse? What are the qualities in the relationship? What are what do I know about how bad this could get or what it starts interfering with in my life? Um, am I gonna have to start communicating things to my partner? How might they listen? And then that's what's sending down also. Um, that's what's also helping make the pain sensation. And so in your story and in so many others, right? Even let's say after an excision surgery or um let's say obviously hormonal uh or pain meds, they're not tapping into that pro process, right? They're just targeting the structural component. Um, and so that doesn't that make sense that pain would still stay because it's taking in memory and experience all these things that are like um that have happened rather than something we can just like tweak with a medication. Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Yeah. And then so do we just shake to get rid of it? What do we do?

SPEAKER_01 18:49

Oh, what do we do? Yeah, there's so gosh, um that that is the question. I guess I can talk a little bit about what I would how I support a client, and I can also share a little bit about my personal as well. I think the first is just understanding that um with endometriosis and chronic pelvic pain, that this neuroplastic pain or this chronic pain experience is a piece of it. And even just knowing that um starts to shift our understanding of what's it like when discomfort shows up or when pain shows up. And so oftentimes when we are diagnosed or we're given the words endometriosis, it's like, well, there's no cure. Um, you can go with surgery, you can try hormonals, but this is you're gonna have this, right? This is just it's complex and and here it is.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Good luck.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Imagine the messaging was actually no wait. There is a piece that we don't, we're not quite there on research yet in terms of having a cure, but we know there's this chronic pain experience, and there are so many tools that we can do, right? Because chronic pain, um, let's say it's chronic back pain, chronic neck pain, chronic migraines, um fibromyalgia, like full body pains. Um, those tools are out there, but because this is for me, this is my understanding of it, like the research gaps, and this is woman only, right? It's like we're behind the scene on wait, but this is chronic pain. Um, I don't as I say that too, like did that feel like a part of your explanation of it, this idea of wait, you're dealing with chronic pain.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

It was I it was never explained to like it was never explained to me that way in the times of when I was being diagnosed with it. But as I've learned about it, I'm like, I did live in chronic pain. And whether it was the three weeks a month that I was menstruating or the times when I wasn't menstruating and I was still in pain and just like leg cramps and like just my whole body when I when I truly go back to owning my full story instead of just trying to like get through life and understanding all of it so I can get it out of my nervous system and I can feel better and stronger. Yeah, the amount of pain I lived in for so long is mind-numbing to me. And I didn't even think of it as a chronic pain, yeah, anything, other than like I'm popping Advils or whatever other drugs you can give me. Like, it was crazy. Like it's it's nuts to me how much of my life I lived and managed pain. Yeah. Oh it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

It is, and it just that it's such a huge piece of it. And I I really struggle to understand why why does that why is that gap so huge? Even just that messaging of like, and I see it as a chronic pain experience, kind of put on top of let's say lesions or um however that endometriosis shows up in the person because we know it can show up in so many different areas of the body or um ovaries, or for me, I also have um adenomyiosis, so it's like in the uterus, but I was able to get pregnant. So, anyways, the I I want to come back to your question of like what do we do? So the first part, and this is often why it can be so powerful to work with a therapist or work with healthcare healthcare practitioner, maybe there's a pelvic floor physio that does this work too, is actually starting to understand some of the patterns that exist in this chronic pain experience. Um, because oftentimes I'll hear like my flare ups just come out of nowhere, or one time I can work out or I can have sex and I feel totally fine. And then the next time I'm in bed for a week. And because our nervous system has been so activated and we're in this sort of vigilance and protective mode. It's really that also impacts the like logical thinking and problem solving. So it's really hard to see our own patterns. But so often what's happening in our environment and what's happening in our life is actually connected to the volume of pain that's being experienced. And so the first step before doing any type of nervous system regulation is actually spending time understanding what is my body telling me about my life too. And so if there's, let's say, I'm working overtime or I have workplace cultures that feel incredibly difficult, or relationship conflict, or based on my upbringing, um, and these are science-backed personality traits that um like often lead to chronic pain, people-pleasing tendencies, perfectionism, conscientiousness, this idea of like I'm over-functioning, I'm I'm caring for others, I'm caring more. If life has required you to um present in that way because it can feel safer or relationships can stay close, those are oftentimes like, okay, when I'm giving more than my capacity, or I'm struggling to set boundaries in this area. If our emotional experience has been suppressed because, like, well, I'm a people pleaser, I can't, I can't offend someone. If it's been suppressed long enough, the body starts speaking through pain. That's the idea. It will actually start producing like tension and pain. Like, else it's not listening. We have to get louder. And then what happens is oftentimes, oh my gosh, I don't have to go to that event, not because I want to just say no, I have a I have I have a reason. Right. And then once you can stay back, it's like, wow, I got out of that thing I don't want to do. And then cyclical patterns can happen. Like now there's something external and tangible and real rather than just my preference and just my like um what I'm up to. Um, and and that I see in so, so many, and and what I saw in myself too when I started some of this work. Like, bodies are pretty darn wise once we start like um decoding what this pain actually means sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah, and it's that permission piece, like using the pain for permission. And I mean, shit, sometimes we should be able to use that because there were times when we didn't feel okay and we did things, like when you speak of being a people pleaser and you know not wanting to upset the Apple card and you know, showing up for your kids or your friends or your partner, your family, even though you're like, I just can't, but you do it. And um it's it's like an excuse, but not an excuse because it's real, but it's no longer that's so that's so interesting. I was definitely not a people pleaser. I'm like, as I'm listening to you, I'm like, but or a perfectionist, but I did them in different ways. And again, I know this isn't a therapy session for myself, but I'm thinking of all the things of you know, just trying like unpacking pain in a way that I can understand it as well in terms of what happens for other people. Um but using that external being able to because also when you've been told, I would think, when you've been told for so long that when you're actually in pain and you're actually being told you're not in pain, like that's gotta mess with the nervous system. Cause like immediately you're like, but I hurt, but you get like this. Was always my thing is like I know I'm physically in pain right now. And because I couldn't show anyone, you don't look sick, you don't sound sick, you know. Like, am I really in pain? Like, that's the whole like mind-body mix with all of this in terms of like, is it real?

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Yeah, and I love that you slowed me, he's just slowed it down on that idea of like pain as being something external or tangible we can hold on to. And that I the way I phrased it, it not in any way all of a sudden work it the body is creating this to get out of something, or it doesn't make it any more real, but that the body it it's working, it's basically helping communicate to the person, or let's say communicating to me or communicating to you, this idea of wait, something feels off. Maybe this particular environment or something, um, it doesn't have what I need in it, or it doesn't feel fully emotionally safe. And then it's just our body's weight, like it often happens cyclically where then it will start producing that sensation, but then it allows us to step back as well, like like take a pause rather than just being exposed to environments or exposed to doing um so much. Um, but that's not to say that then with let's say endometriosis, we can't take out that idea of with lesions and when pain's starting, right? That doesn't, it starts often before that cyclical pattern happens, right? There's um it doesn't make the pain any more real, even when our memories and our like our um that neuroplastic component is in it, but we can just start to decipher it the longer the pain is there, we start noticing that there's patterns in our life that um that are often like um, especially with like emotional expression. Can I safely say how I feel? Um, express things like anger or frustration or communicate like that. Um, that's often when that like tension buildup comes up. I hope that helps, like yeah, no, and I think for so many, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

And I think for so many women, like we've been, well, we've been dismissed, as we know, and then we haven't even been given the space to have the language. Like, if we even just say we're having a bad day because we're not feeling well, or like if you are, it's literally like this, you know, well, you must just be on your period, or like you're on the rag, or whatever all the like bad things we were ever said when we just weren't ourselves, and or if we were speaking up for ourselves. Like as a person who was quite outspoken and continue to be, it when I look back to like the pain that came to me in terms of like, oh, you're just on your period, or like you're just being crazy because of this. Like, we've it's always been equated back to like the pain and because of who we are, like physically, versus like what the experiences we're actually going through. And so it's really interesting to when you speak of like the environment adding to that or contributing to that. Like, I would never have thought of that, like without, and then therapy was never, I mean, I always went to therapy for all sorts of different reasons, but I was never asked in therapy, you know, how's like what's happening with your endometrial? Like, you have a chronic pain issue. Like, never in therapy was I ever asked anything about my illness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Um, and maybe I I I can maybe speak a little bit to our actually around like how much it deserves to show up in something like a psychotherapy and why that matters. I was just gonna shoot, I had a thought on the tip of my tongue of you said something so important. Oh, yes, that idea of like um pain before at like that minimization that happens of like, oh, your mood is off. Are you on your period? Or it was always used as almost this idea of like, this is on you. If you're not showing up to that standard, to that, and that's that sneaky perfectionism, right? Like, can I just show up with um at a five out of ten when I feel like a five out of ten, right? And so those are those earlier days of like um that that conscientiousness or that like guarding, that idea of like what actually gets to show in a that what's emotionally safe to show, what will actually be met with compassion? And then oftentimes then that kind of inner critic shows up of like, like, how do I want to show up in certain spaces or what's what mask goes on to make sure that it feels okay. Um, and oftentimes that's when that like pain feels invisible for so long. Like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna talk about it. I'm just gonna um keep up, or I'm just gonna um I'll I'll address it in the doctor's appointment if I don't get my answers, I'm just gonna push through.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

That yeah, that's that's such a good point. Yeah, like it just it it for my own journey. I don't know what it was like for you. And I'd love to, if you want to share, I mean it's the opposite seat that you're used to sitting in. So sharing some of your story. Um I just got to the point where I stopped telling people. Like I just it didn't matter. Like, what did it matter? Nobody thought that it was on anyone to ask, it was on me to communicate better, but it just at the it just got to a point where it's like I'm just I'm literally living this sad, quiet, painful, yeah, somewhat depressing existence over here in this like compartmentalized piece because I didn't want to be that because then I was like this outspoken, driven businesswoman, mom, fun, party with my girlfriends, like good, I think on the most part, a good wife and good partner, right? And so, but there was this part, it was like this shadow, or I just had this moment of like lyness with the like cloud, but nobody really sees it, kind of thing. And again, you don't hindsight is great, and you when you look back, you can connect the dots in a different way, and our stories get us to where we are, and so I'm grateful for it. But it was like there was just this part that I there was a part of me I didn't ever get to share with anyone. And then because I didn't know anyone who was suffering the way that I was, because it's one thing when you find community and you find a friend who's, you know, when someone's gone through a breakup or someone is suffering from the same illness that you have, then there's you've got ears and you've got empathy. But I didn't have anyone, and I and I think most women with endometriosis, and any of our below the belt health issues, until we've started talking about it really over the last year and a half, most of us lived very quietly with it.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

Oh, for sure. And I don't think that's a simple choice. I think I would I share that as well. And I I sometimes like to tell this story of I um for me, I had a uh four, no, maybe five or six unexplained emergency room visits where it would seem like my appendix or like in intense, intense pain behind the belly button. And I would go to the ER and I would I wouldn't be able to walk. I'd be kind of like doubled over in what I would consider 10 out of 10 pain. And after assessment and all of the wait times, the messaging would be like, your scans are fine. Um, here's an anxiety medication. And then I would have this moment like, I don't think I'm anxious. Like, I'm definitely scared because I think my appendix is going to burst. But um then like this warping of self-trust starts to happen. Like, well, if I can't, how do I tell the story that I had to go to the emergency room, but actually nothing was wrong? And they just thought that I was anxious. And and after multiple times of your scans are fine, you are fine, but the really sneaky thing I found with, I find with endometriosis, and I hear this in others too, is this like there the pain can be there and then all of a sudden it can fade a minute, or it it can be really hard to track, right? And so then you're left with like, how do I put that into words? Or how can I remember something that was so painful and accurately described it? And so then I found what happened was this idea of like, well, if I can't trust myself to go to the emergency room when it's 10 out of 10 pain, can I trust myself to like communicate when I'm overwhelmed or my when my babies aren't sleeping, or I like like I just simply need help? It was all of a sudden this thing of like, do I is my can I like trust my own reality of things, which is a very unsettling experience. And that's so much of the work I get up to in psychotherapy with others too, is like, how do we actually first see that um trajectory and then like build back up the self-trust, like the knowing that was always there, but it just wasn't met with like what we needed.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Right. And it's funny when you say not funny, but when you say 10 out of 10 pain, I always found, and I don't know if this happened for you, but I always felt that like every time I went back to the emergency room or every time it was right before surgery or whatever, what was 10 out of 10 when I was truly living in like before I had been told otherwise became an eight, a seven, a four. Oh, it's not that bad. Like when I think of the pain that I felt in my life, even after my hysterectomy, I'm like, do I need pain meds? Do I not need is it painful? And luckily, my husband was always like, Aim, if you even have to question it, do something to help yourself. Like if you're questioning it right now, take take the pill, take the nap, do the thing. Like the minute you're questioning it, do something about it. And that was very helpful because I didn't even know how to help myself anymore. Because the self-doubt, as you so eloquently played, like, yeah, you're kind of like, is it?

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Yeah, that is the medical gaslighting. Like, I think that's what we're talking about, right? And I think 100%. I think there's like a very long healing journey in that because even still, if my um, let's say just simply not feeling well, or um I I have kind of this waiting period of like, am I overreacting? Am I thinking too much of it? When? And I have to be with myself in that and kind of like work through it. But but there's some pretty lasting impacts of that happening over years for sure.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

For sure. And and I think of I feel for the women, and I'm so grateful we get to have these conversations and that they're happening because you and I are clearly we've done a lot of the work. And I mean, you've sought out so much work that you now do the work for others, and I guess I do too in my own little way. And and and we're doing that, and we've done that where others still haven't. And so, like, that's my hope is that we can continue and not even a hope, it's like, let's keep going because we shouldn't be living alone and we shouldn't be doubting ourselves, and we weren't wrong, and you know, we we deserve we deserve to be heard, not so much on the outside, but I I have found it's like it's and even to what you just said is like deserving to hear ourselves, and to your point of like coming back to that self-trust, and it's amazing when I look at again connecting the dots in times of where I didn't and I second guess myself and I might have left myself in a friendship or a relationship or a job or a situation a little bit longer, even though when we talk about the gut and the nervous system and the knowing, you stay a little bit longer because that was taken from us.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Which is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I guess because now I'm remembering too, I have like beautiful points, and I I couldn't agree more. This idea of like, what do we do too? I think now I taught I sort of give those little tidbits of like first we see our patterns and then start to see our whole like the impact over the years, right? And a lot of times there's grief processing in that too, like the what could have been, or what would it have been like if that wasn't the thing. And that takes work and time, right? That's like the emotional and the psychological layers of living with something chronic. Um and at the same time, what we get to do is um, so I'm trained in pain reprocessing therapy, and I'm also doing um, I'm also trained in somatic embodiment, which is like how do we find safety in the body again? And so that's this idea of rather than really just simple nervous system techniques, those do matter. But first we actually have to see like, well, what are we holding, right? It's almost like if we were just to tap or just to shake. It's like, well, we're on the tip of the iceberg.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

I'm glad we like took a little bit of time to like that all of those different layers. Um, and then pain reprocessing therapy is really interesting. And so it's designed um for chronic pain experiences. And it's this idea of really targeting the role that the brain, fear, and pattern symptoms um show up. And ultimately, it has like incredible results in terms of working and finding more safety in the body and teaching our brain that we can have sensation. Let's say even inflammatory or slight cramping, and the brain doesn't have to go off as if it's a smoke detector or like huge alarm bells. It can go off to match um, there's that fly again, match that like tissue, actually, like our tissue ability, right? Because if our if our brain is sending out these signals saying like danger, danger, this is this is gonna get bad, then it raises the actual pain levels. Um, and we start to wonder like are lesions growing back? And and so often that's not the case. Is my endometriosis going worse? Well, the doctor told me there's no cure and it could come back. So then it starts to be this whole fear cycle that happens. And so we work with that cycle around like fear and coping, but it often reinforces um and then kind of like starts it again of working with it in a different way. So that's a huge part of the work I do. And then those are a lot of those take homes where actually we're learning, we call them micromoments of safety and working with our nervous system when we notice some of those sensations or we notice a pattern happening of like we insert a lot of compassion and curiosity and like just being with it rather than that, like, oh God, how bad is this gonna get? What's it gonna get in the way of type um response, which activates the nervous system? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

And then yeah, totally. And then we're like, oh my God, and then we're in a spiral versus and like we're no longer helping ourselves.

unknown 40:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Yeah. And like, of course, we're wondering those because we haven't we didn't know what was going on for so long. And it has nothing. I'm always so conscious. And all the ways I explain that, it's never a conscious choice. It's like the nervous system is just simply doing what it's designed to do, and um it isn't conscious, even those patterns or those cycles, they're never something that's at our um like forefront. They're just happening to us, basically.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

And I think to your point, it's listening, and that's what I've learned a lot in the work that I've done for myself personally, is like you do need to check in in in like where where is where might that pain be? Where is that stiffness? Why am I feeling this? I mean, I just started seeing a pelvic health. I wish I'd known about them forever ago. But like learning, like I thought I was, you know, I'm not a yoga or a yogi person, but I like I do yoga and I was like, I can breathe, and then I'm breathing for her, and she's like, You're breathing wrong. I was like, great. But all of a sudden now I've like, I'm geggling wrong, I'm breathing wrong, whatever, I'll do the homework. Like, I'm in. But it was but learning to breathe differently and having someone sit with me to do that was life-changing.

unknown 41:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Because I can feel now when I'm breathing short, because I, you know, whether it's menopause or the things or anxiety or excitement, like it's also sitting with like, am I excited about something? Am I anxious about something? But just even to allow ourselves, and I don't know that a lot of us have had that learning yet to even ask ourselves that, like to your point of like sitting with the sensations and am I just breathing heavy because I'm really excited that like maybe later I'll get an ice cream versus like, oh my God, work's overwhelming because there's similar feelings in our bodies.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Yes. And if for the listeners being like, would this apply to me or would it not? One kind of telltale, the idea of your body needing more checkpoints and slowing down is if um if they find themselves going through a boom bust cycle. Like I'm I there's a sense of like I'm living on borrowed time because I don't know when the next flare-up will be, or I don't know when pain will show up. And so there can be this really popular tendency to like, I'm gonna override little early signals that I need to rest, or I'm gonna reach beyond what I I'm gonna go to all the kids' things. I'm gonna show up for work, I'm gonna, I don't want to miss out on anything, but then you have a crash, which is the bust. So perhaps that's a really big flare-up, or a I'm feeling depleted or just like withdrawn, or like that crash feeling. That's the idea of we've sort of been hardwired to override early signals. Um, and again, it's not a conscious choice, but there can be like a mind-body disconnect where it's like it's not an option. I want to show up. And and half the time there are things we really want to do, like the kids' events or the um, you don't have kids, the the fun stuff, like showing up to old friends, anything. Um, so yeah, that's we call that the boom bus cycle, basically.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

That's wild. I was thinking it's funny when you say like just the listening and to I spoke to um a guest this morning, and she was like, one of the things you can start doing for yourself is just when you have to go pee, go pee.

unknown 43:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

And I was like, wow, there we go. Like, how many times do we as women go? And again, you take us all the way back to school when we would have the urge to need to go to the bathroom, and our teachers would tell us, wait. Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, and I and it's again when I'm back in this work and like thinking about all the kids and experiences and stuff, and I'm like, and now I think of like the young girls who might be bleeding in their pants or getting or needing to change their tampon or whatever, and the thing you asked is to go to the bathroom, and then you have a teacher who tells you you have to wait. It's like, how about we just stop telling people they need to wait to go to the bathroom? Because my whole thing, like as a child in newswork, I always was like, if someone, if a kid is telling me something bad is happening at home and it is, then I need to pay attention. If someone is telling me something bad is happening at home and it isn't, I still need to pay attention. Because Either neither one of those is a good thing. And so my whole thing is like if you need to go to the bathroom, whether you just need a minute because you need to leave the room or you just it's too much or whatever, or you actually need to go to the bathroom, let them go to the bathroom. Like it's just, it's it's crazy some of the conditioning and things that we've done. And, you know, and I do add that extra layer for those of us who are female and thinking of our the our young girls out there who are, you know, getting their periods sooner and needing to go to the washroom for different like I just think it's bizarre. I don't mean to get on the whole bathroom thing, but I just think it's like it's one of those very simple things that we're actually taught to doubt so early on with our bodies from a sensation point of view.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Truly.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Override, doubt passed, you can muster through it to the point of pain sometimes, right? Like we've all done it. Like we've all, you know, some of us maybe drank way too much water for their first ultrasound. You know, so I've experienced that, but like whatever. That's a personal thing. I could have done what the doctor told me. I wanted to overachieve. Um so in in the work that you do now, do you do you believe you do it because of the experiences you had? Like I know you spoke of human experience and wanting to help people. Do you think what you went through has really impacted to where you are today?

SPEAKER_01 46:10

Oh, for sure. And I think for me, um, those that siloed healthcare that we have, right? This idea of like, oh, physical, medical, physical body things for me had always just stayed in like a medical body focus bucket. And then I saw therapy and um like emotional psychological care as like, okay, my feelings, my thoughts, my past experiences, relationships. And so even as I was, as I became a therapist and I had already been like I would had my private practice and a full, fully licensed therapist, still trying to navigate my own health care. And I I didn't think to bring them up in my own therapy, or even it was almost like they're just a blind spot. It's like, well, that just simply lives here. There's no answers, but I'll focus in on this. And it wasn't until first I got the diagnosis, um, like the language to understand what was happening, but that opened up like a whole new area for me to process and explore. And yes, I think my lived experience navigating Canadian healthcare systems, delayed diagnosis, but then mostly just even like in my work, understanding like, well, what is that? Now that we look back, what is the impact? How can we put words just like you were saying? Like all the things that now we can see once we've been in them. And then I'm, yeah, my training and my approach is trauma-informed. I work within systems, like the idea of like healing doesn't happen in isolation, right? And so I'm considering the whole picture. Um, and then I when I work with any client, there's this idea of yes, I'll have a lived experience, or yes, I have my version, but the client will always be that guide. Like I'll I just hold this sense of understanding and compassion and a bit of this like ability to really be in it with like really get it. Um, but then what know like everybody's childhood, lived experience version of pain, um, that gets to show up exactly, like so uniquely as well.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

For sure. You shared that took 20 years to be diagnosed. So how does what does that what did that look like? Because you like me were able to have children. So if you'd share a little bit more about that.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Yeah, well, I guess what with what I know about pain, it makes sense to start. But like, so as young as seven and eight, I grew up as a competitive gymnast and then um competitive high diver, actually. And so pain yeah, I'm so crazy. Um injury, like uh things like ankle Achilles, nip, um, uh hip and knee injuries were always just kind of a constant. And I had this idea of like, hey, the body will do what it needs to do. We can tape up, we can push through a bit, or we can modify and rest. So I had this understanding of like bodies fix them, bodies can heal, like pain wasn't scary in a way. Um, and then it's literally the month I quit um those competitive sports. It went from I I was just diving at that time. I got my period a month later, and that was my first version of like excruciating pain. Um, but I I I pushed through it truly because it was these messages of like, um, I have family history of of periods being painful or pain as being a part of a woman. I don't know if you've heard that.

SPEAKER_03 49:35

Yeah, totally part of being a girl. Great.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Yeah, yeah. Um, or even there's the message of like pain is beauty and like different ways we like take care of ourselves, right? All of those messages I consider as like um I truly just had this experience of like this is just is. And I remember hearing in your story where you're like, mom, take me to the doctor. This isn't right. And I remember just being like, that is incredible. Like that sturdiness at a young age. Um, but then I I was on the pill, um, put on the pill late high school into uh mid-20s, so for 10 years, and I saw that as almost just like this band-aid. Like I kind of just forgot about it, and then I went off the pill, and within that first period back, that was um, I think the second emergency room visit, because it was like again, just excruciating. But um the I think I had my answers from the doctor were okay, you're not pregnant. Um, your scans are fine, you're good, basically. And so then it was kind of just this thing. I'm like, okay, I guess we're done. Like I just would move past everything. Um and in retrospect, like, gosh, bringing that information to my family doctor or or requesting a follow-up. Um, but I just there was just this sense, like, um, the messaging was always like, you're healthy, you're good, here's the pill. There wasn't ever like informed information of like what side effects or what would we want to consider if you're coming off of it or anything like that, which I don't, I was young. I just I didn't have that insight to like yeah. And then um for between about 25 to 35 years old, that was when my pain, I believe, like most of that neuroplastic toponent happened for me because it was every month. But I like on top of that was I was working sometimes like 16-hour days. It was the high pressure events, yeah. Um, just even navigating 20s and and then into early parenthood plus a pandemic, my pain went from like period related and cycle related to truly all over the body. Like I would have full neck, back, um, like seizes as well. Um, there was always like this just injury that was hard to hard to like capture basically. It would be there, then it would feel okay, or I would just put on a sock and my whole neck and my whole back would go. Um, and so I just would always go to like physiotherapy or um massages and and then kind of just I I I really think it was kind of like this just something I'm dealing with.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Like there wasn't I was an athlete, I like all these things that you can reason why you would be in so much pain.

SPEAKER_01 52:15

Yeah, and people and physios would say, like, well, if you were in a competitive athlete, your body is going to have um there was like they use the word even like fusion after it. It was like hyper-flexible or hyper, like there was reasons that they would say for that sort of thing. So truly just like ongoing pain um management. And then I actually started therapy myself, um, a different kind of therapy called internal family systems. And that was my first experience of mind-body connection. And I noticed as I was talking about different patterns or themes in my own life, maybe different relationships or the idea of boundaries or overfunctioning, the way internal family systems works is you're actually it's more mindful and you notice different parts of your body kind of holding this experience. And I would notice things like my whole pelvic, like it would feel like a belt around for me, or even my back or my neck as well, would start to show up in this work. And as I moved through sort of that like trauma processing and healing piece, all of a sudden the pain would like like um sustainably like leave as well. Wow. Um and then I moved cities and got a new family doctor and would have a ton of bladder pain, um, like pain in during intimacy and period pain. And she was able to be like, I think you have endometriosis. Um, and it just it honestly, I I think I just cried. I was like, what?

SPEAKER_03 53:42

Oh, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

Yeah. And then I happened to have a colleague who had connections with McMaster's team, and he it was a new gynecologist that just opened up and he is so incredible. And I just like found the right gynecologist that basically, like, um, even in his diagnosis, was like, okay, this there's pelvic floor physiotherapy, there's going to be a nutrition piece, there's going to be um a mindfulness or like a nervous system piece. And he just handed me all of this. And then um that just kind of set all of my healing on a path. And then I had told myself, like, I'm not rushing this to support others. I'm like giving myself what this is gonna need to look like and until I'm in a place so I can actually be the support for others. And then um, I've been doing this specific work for almost two years now with others. So it's newer, but the science is also newer.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

Like I think I'm just right here in it at the right time and with the right healing for yourself, and you know, there's and and that's how I I feel in the work that we're doing right now and you know, bringing the event to life and having these conversations and bringing people together. It's like it is time. And while we're all sort of new in this space, helping each other navigate it, and you know, I had a girlfriend that, you know, we were talking about hormones, and she was kind of like, yeah, but like, is estrogen really saving people's lives? And you know, it didn't for like for years before. It's like, yeah, because the fucking research was wrong. Like, like there's just like again, I understand there's gonna be different thoughts and different and people are allowed their own opinions and such. However, it's like, but we haven't been researched. We haven't, like, we're not even, in my opinion, to a certain degree, like at a place where we can almost even have debates yet because we haven't tried one or the other enough. Like we've kind of gone on the other side of like not caring for ourselves, but more than, well, if we try all the things that might be able to help us, then maybe we, you know, have a like maybe that pendulum is swinging, you know, both ways, but it really hasn't swung this way yet, is kind of, you know, how I feel is is my experience so far as I'm talking to people and living this experience right now in terms of so many different thoughts and opinions. And I don't want everyone to agree with me or think the same way. Like I'm not even, I would say my thoughts other than my own story, and that's the only expert I'm in, is my expert in my story, is listening to all the different things. But what I love is that you know, you're bringing this incredible modality to what you do and how you're gonna help people, which is then gonna inform others, and it's just it's just the fact that there's options is what is so beautiful to me right now.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

Yes, yeah, and then it's I guess finding the options, coming across what works, what can be that order. And I'm like very much, yeah, and it sounds like you're the same, just the way you describe all the different ones, like one is not better than the other, and collaborative care and led by like what's most important by the person and what will be most valuable, and even readiness, like what is my system ready to try on right now? It gets to look different. I think like it's only gonna be the person that or ourselves that know exactly what's right, what that right like combination of support is.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Yeah, it feels very much like we're writing our own recipes, and some are gonna, you know, some are gonna add some flair and some are just gonna go with like meat and potatoes. And I'm like more on the side of like bored of the meat and potatoes because that didn't help me so much. So I want all the spices over here. And it was um, my sister was here a couple weeks ago, and she was like, she's been enlightened into some things, and I've been talking to her about some stuff. I'm ahead of like the game on some things, and she was like, Oh, somatic movement and whatever. And I was like, Oh, tried that and tried this. And she's like, Are you just really well healed? I'm like, I don't know if I'm healed yet, but I'm surrounded by opportunities to try things, and I've said yes to them, right? Like I've said, yes, I'll try that. I went to sound bathing and I I fell asleep. So I don't know that sound bathing is going to be my thing because people snored and I fell asleep. So I have trauma response to snoring because of like people snoring in my life. So I'm not gonna go back there. But the somatic movement, I met some people in California and my coach and stuff, and they that movement piece is like beautiful and amazing, and to challenge yourself and in weird and wonderful ways, I love that, you know, it's the same way as I love lifting a heavy weight and taking progesterone. Like it's just what are all the things? And I'm up for trying them all because there isn't a recipe for us yet. Yeah, like there's just so much for us to like uncover. Like, I'm like, oh my God, I have I'm gonna get off this and I'm gonna tell my Natalie, who's also been on the podcast, who's a young girl who is someone I care deeply about, who's living, who's not getting support, and like she needs to call you. Like, I'm just like there's so much connection that needs to happen because more people need to know about you, more people need to know about this person because we just it we haven't allowed our like it hasn't been there.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

Yeah, and just even the ones you named, right? There, there really is so many different supports and like they are a little spicy and different, but like it really they they matter just as much as like the the systems that are prioritized in healthcare, what we want to, um, and they can strengthen them, I think, because it's not just systems are oh wrong thing, it's just they're incomplete when we think of like how complex the human experience is.

SPEAKER_00 59:30

For sure. I love that. I could talk to you forever. I want to be in your space. I want to, I think we could probably do a whole podcast on you high diving. Like, I'm like, how do we unpack that? I'm like, because you're also like to me, I'm like, you are this like well-packaged, beautiful person. And I'm like, you high dive? This is a whole other moment. Um, yeah, can't even go on a roller coaster now. So it's yeah, crazy things with there. We go. We'll have to have a whole other episode. Well, thank you for being willing to take my DM and for joining me on this. And I know so many people are gonna listen and want to get in touch with you, so how can they do that?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

Yeah, so my website is um the whole you counseling.com. Um, I'm also somewhat on social media. I'm a little bit of a like, do it for a little new break thing, but gosh, reach out there. Um, and I do, if anybody is interested, I have a course that just launched. Um, it's 75 minutes and it's all about what the heck is neuroplastic pain. And I talk about um the emotional and psychological patterns and considerations of living with endometriosis and pelvic pain as well. A lot of what we talked about, but sort of that like for anyone who likes like the deep dive of education, science-backed, like tell me more type thing, um, that's on my website too, if anybody is interested in learning.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:47

Perfect. I'm gonna link everything in our show notes because I I know there are people who are gonna be in touch. So thank you for the work that you're doing. Thank you for sharing. Thanks for sitting on the other side of the seat because you know, as a psychotherapist, you don't always get to tell your story. So thank you for for being open and honest and for the work you're doing. So appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

Thank you for having me and for the work you're doing. Yeah, I'm in awe. It's you're doing amazing things.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:11

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

Well, here we go. We're just gonna change the world together, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

Perfect. Thank you.