Ep 16: Simon's story & how men can support women through menopause

In today's episode, Amy is joined by Simon Salt. Simon is a speaker, writer, certified menopause coach, and creator of The Quiet Transition—a Substack dedicated to helping men understand and support the women in their lives through perimenopause and menopause. Eight years ago, his wife entered perimenopause and spent four years being dismissed by doctors before finally getting a diagnosis. That experience nearly broke their relationship. Instead of walking away, Simon dove into research and discovered there was virtually no information written for men trying to understand what was happening. In this episode, Simon talks about his journey from personalizing his wife's symptoms to learning to listen, why men and women research menopause differently, and what partners actually need from each other during this transition.

Key Components:

• How Simon went from personalizing his wife's perimenopause symptoms to realizing it had nothing to do with him, and what changed in their relationship that led him down this path.
• The gap in men's understanding: Why there's plenty of menopause information out there, but almost none of it is written for men to understand.
• A framework called "sit, listen, believe": How men can actually support their partners instead of trying to fix them.
• Why men research impact while women research symptoms.

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🤘 Podcast produced by Binge-Worthy Studio

For informational and entertainment purposes only — not medical advice. We're here to get loud, not to play doctor.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:44

With that, I am excited to welcome Simon to the show. Simon, welcome.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

Hi, Amy. Thank you for having me. I'm Simon Salt. I am a speaker, writer, creator of The Quiet Transition, where I write for men on how they can best support the women in their lives, whether that's personal or professional, through the menopause transition. And I'm a certified menopause coach.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

I love it. When I um those who listen along know that I like to like stalk, but in a friendly way, stalk people. And I found you online. And I am just so interested in all the people that are here, you know, in the fight, in the journey, in all the things that we're doing to better women's health and an understanding. And coming across you being a man in the menopause space, just like blew my mind. And so I'm so excited to jump in to this conversation today. And I know by the end of it, and people listening are just gonna also have their minds blown and be so much better for it. So, Simon, how does a gentleman like yourself get into menopause?

SPEAKER_03 1:57

Um, so my journey starts eight years ago when my wife went into perimenopause. And we went through four years of what can only be described as hell. Wow. Um where she was dismissed by four successive um doctors. Told dad it was aging, told that it was diet, told it was lack of exercise, told that it was repeated UTIs, told it was yeast infections, all of the things that dismissed her. And obviously the age-old favorite, your labs are normal.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Right. Exactly, because that's the easiest thing to tell someone.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

Yeah, absolutely. So um but our relationship was changing dramatically. Um the biggest change, of course, was intimacy, both physical and emotional. Um and so I actually um I think it's common amongst men, I personalized. Because if it's not about her, right, and the relationship is changing and her meds are normal, and the doctors say there's nothing wrong with her, it must be me. Right. That's changing the relationship. So what is it? What am I not doing? What am I doing? What am I not saying? What am I am I saying? Is it just me generally? Has she no longer attracted to me? Is it something that I'm not fulfilling within her? You know, all of these different things that that end up centering, and and this is one of the things I come back to a lot in these conversations is women are taught to center men in society, or certainly in Western society. We women are meant to be in the male orbit, that's just the way culture sets us up, and so men typically will center themselves because that's the way they're taught. You know, they're at the center of whatever's going on. We're also taught to be fixers and solution providers. And you can't fix something that isn't broken, she's not broken, right? You can't provide a solution for something that isn't a problem. So where do you go? So you also suffer this loss of identity. If um if this isn't my role anymore, then what is my role in this relationship? What am I supposed to do here? What's the value I bring? If I'm not fixing things, I'm not providing solutions, what do I do? Right. Right. Um and then so we went through those four years of total dismissal. Finally, she found a doctor who said, Oh yeah, this is paramenopause. That was really the first we had heard of it. Wow. You know, that was the and my wife's a researcher. Right. So she digs in on these things. Right. And um, so she did. She started to dig in and find out, well, what is paramenopause? What does this all mean? How does that relate to the symptoms I'm having? Unfortunately, I didn't at the time. Right. I was still at that stage of, okay, well, now you have a word, you have a lift of symptoms. What's that got to do with me? How does that impact me? So I'm still personalizing and internalizing. Right. And um, we hit a turning point in our relationship, and it just snapped for me that this wasn't about me. Um, this was her experience and my experience together, and we were having two different experiences of the same situation. I was experiencing it my way, she was experiencing her way. What we weren't doing was communicating about how those two things could come together. Right. And so I guess 18 months ago, um, I started to dig in on my own and do my own research and found that there's lots of information. If you look for it, there's information. Doesn't get out too many women yet. But there is information there if you dig for it, but very little of it is phrased and framed for men. Um, it's either medical and clinical, right, or it's written by women for women, which is obviously as it should be. Right, of course, of course, of course.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Of course, yeah, no judgment. Like it's that's where we're at, right?

SPEAKER_03 6:26

I mean Yeah, but there isn't a way for men easily to translate that unless they're spending the time in the space and consuming a lot of it, which I do, right? Um, to then say, okay, how does it impact how I see my relationship?

unknown 6:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

How does it impact what I'm doing? Um, and it's to move them, you know, my work, I see it as to move them from not knowing anything to having a list of symptoms to actually experiencing what those symptoms mean.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

Right.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

For the person in front of them.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

Right. And it's it's it's so awesome. I'm so grateful for your work. And just to even start the conversation as a man on the side of all of this, like I, my story for anyone who's listened already, I my husband um was a big part of the reason I was diagnosed with endometriosis. And so he lived, you know, Eric lived this insane journey with me over the years of my poor health to a hysterectomy to then, you know, like one day you're here and the next day you're in full-blown, you know, menopause. And so the journey Eric has lived, and there was so much during that time that was obviously all about me and my health, because it was the part that was failing. But he was along for the ride, and there was, you know, you just the way you just spoke of what your experience was while your, you know, your best friend, partner, lover was going through all this stuff, like you are part of that relationship and your needs weren't being met either. And there were no words for it before. Like, if I think of some of the arguments and conflict that Eric and I experienced around intimacy, one, I dealt with pain because of endometriosis, but then like through this whole, you know, surgical menopause journey, you know, again, am I broken? And, you know, in his like, are you not attracted to me anymore? And then the hormone balance of, you know, all that being out of whack. And no, I don't, it's not that I don't want you. I don't want me. I don't want anyone. But there's no place, there hasn't been a place for the conversation about what's happening for you. And as I was listening to you, it's it made me think. Um, I like to equate things to things of like the the caregiver and the in the person going through an illness, right? Like when you're, I had to take care of my mom when she had cancer. And so everybody was all about my mom, and so they should be. But as a caregiver, my role had changed. I was no longer a daughter, I was a nurse, I was, you know, a an Uber driver to appointments. And so there's a shift in identity. And if you don't know, like this whole, you know, man dealing with partner women in lives of this space. If we don't know enough about what's happening to us, how the hell do you guys know what's happening to you for your partner? Right? In your basic needs, like you said, you men fix things. That's innate. That's innate.

SPEAKER_03 9:33

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know, you bring up a good point there about needs being met. And I think it's that's part of um the adjustment for both people. It's how do I meet my partner's needs now? And that's a conversation that both people have to have. So they have to redress what are my needs? Because instead you understand that what those needs are, right? They can't be met. No. And so um, I think it's really important that we focus on what are the new needs for the partner, the woman that's experiencing this, as well as what are the needs that the man now feels he is not getting met, and how can those needs be met in different ways? Right. You know, so for example, one of the things that I bring up with men is you need a hug. Right. She's having a hot flash. Last thing you're gonna get is a hug.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Right. Because literally, when you're boiling from the inside out, the last thing you need, you probably need a hug, but that's the last thing you need, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:43

Yeah, exactly. And that could come right at the moment where you come home from a really bad day and you need that, you need to let it out. You need to vent, and you need a hug, and you need comforting. And you're not gonna get that. Not in that moment, right. And I and that's part of this adjustment of okay, I'm still wanted, I'm still loved, right at the moment is not the time when it can be expressed. But that doesn't mean it's gone away. Right. And it's that adjustment in um how your needs are met and when they're met. And I think that's really important um adjustment for both people in the the relationship to make. It's you know, and one of the things we talk about with the drop in estrogen and is the unmasking, women's unmasking, where they decide, well not they decide, where their biology decides they don't want to put up with stuff anymore. The things that have worn them down over the years are no longer gonna be accepted, and suddenly a male partner is presented with, but you've always done those. Why were those not an issue before? Like the last 20 years. Why was that not an issue? And now suddenly you're telling me I don't do enough, right? And that can come as a shock because that partner may have felt they were an active partner in the relationship, right? And they did what they didn't realize was the emotional and uh mental load that their partner was carrying, um, especially in running a household. And it's all that invisible labor that happens that men are often not aware of, and not because they're stupid, not because they're uncaring, they're just not aware of it. These things just happen, and they've always just happened. Maybe when they were growing up as a boy, as a young man, these things just happened as well. Right, right. They grew up in a household where these things just happened. Um, and they get to that point where that's not just gonna happen anymore, and they need to pick up, and that's an adjustment as well. They need to pick up some of that emotional and mental labor that their partner now needs to set down and not only needs to, but is not going to do anymore.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Right, like literally, we're out.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

Yeah, exactly. Nope, that's not me anymore.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

It's no longer on my other duties as assigned.

SPEAKER_03 13:24

Right, exactly. And and you know, this this um one that I come back to a lot um for women is what's for dinner? That age-old question, and they don't want to answer that question anymore, right? They're done, and so somebody else has to answer that question, and maybe that's a division of labor across people. Maybe there are children in the house, right? Maybe it's time for them to step up as well, right? As dad stepping up, so there's there's a lot that goes on in this adjustment of um, you know, uh duties of adjustment of um getting needs met. Because suddenly from the male perspective, suddenly your partner has new needs. Right. They haven't got new needs, they've always had those needs, they just didn't express them because they were masking. Now they're expressing them because they're not masking anymore. Right. And um, I think that's really important. One of the ones I use as an example with men is um you say you help, you go grocery shopping. That's great. That's a good help. That is significant, and that's good, and that's a a piece of physical labor that you can take on. Yeah. But did you check the pantry? Did you check the refrigerator? Did you meal plan? Did you check things like laundry detergent? Right. All of those other things that end up on the shopping list that you then take to the grocery store. Right. That's the emotional labor, the mental labor piece that you're not kind of catching up with, that you need to catch up with. That it it expands. So that one job you were doing, which is great that you were doing that, has to expand. Right. It's a bigger job than you were first seeing. Even if you've been grocery shopping for years, right? You probably weren't doing that other piece, or maybe you were doing it together.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Right. Well, it's it's it, you know, in my household, we have um, my husband is the cook, and so I've always been lucky on that. My kids, he's a firefighter, so when he goes to work, he's gone for 24 hours. So my kids love it because I mean, I know how to cook, I've always enjoyed cooking. Eric just he loves it and he's good at it, and you know, we're so grateful for it. But the kids love it when he goes to work because I'm not interested in making dinner, like it's actually not a part of my schedule, and so I can understand that. So we eat out or we get sushi, which Eric doesn't like, so it all works out. But it's just, it's this, it's this transfer, it's like this evolution. Like I love the word evolution, and and I think what's happened is this evolution has been happening for years because we're humans and we evolve, no new thought. But there was like this quiet evolution that we as women couldn't put words to. And so, like, I all I could think of when you were speaking is you know, that midlife crisis moment where, you know, traditionally like men went out and bought themselves a sports car and traded in their wives for someone younger and like no shit. Because basically, and I'm not saying that that's okay, but we didn't have this point in this meeting. Like, if we think of midlife, that's when women's lives are like are changing in such a way that we even had language for. So if we don't have language for it and we don't even understand it, because I do I remember the day where I was like, I don't feel like myself. And how do you explain that to someone? Like until we're, you know, where we are today, which isn't it's further ahead, but we're nowhere near where we need to be. But all of a sudden, you just don't feel like yourself one day, but yet you're supposed to keep doing the same things and showing up. And you have literally no control over the things that are happening in your body, and yet we're supposed to still show up as the wives and the partners and the friends and the coworkers and the colleagues, and like you said, do the things we did before, but we may not find joy in them. We may not be able to get out of bed, we may be in pain, we may be not in pain, like all the things, and then our partners again, not fair enough, but I don't have the right words for it. But all of a sudden you're like, I can't live here anymore. Because to your point, too, like what is innate in nature to care for? If you can no longer care for me, what's my role? And so to be able to, you know, give language for both sides of this is, I mean, we know divorce is prevalent at this age and stage in our lives. Maybe this will change for people as we educate each other and are empathetic to one another. And and again, I love that like you're here taking care of and helping men so that because we still got to do our stuff over here, but it's this, it is this huge role evolution. It is. Um, and everybody manages it differently, right? I've got some friends who are like, I don't understand this menopause or perimenopause thing, like I'm doing fine. And then I've got others who are like, can't get out of bed, and like, oh my god, my partner doesn't, I don't know if I even like my partner. I don't even know if I want to stay married to my partner, my partner doesn't understand me. Like it's pretty common language that we're all experiencing, but for so long we've kept it to ourselves. And I would say, which is why I'm so grateful we're having this conversation and for the work that you're doing, because not only do we not have the language, but like we need people like you to be educating our partners and our male counterparts so that you can be doing it, so we can do our thing, and then we can come together, right? Because we have to care for our, like we have to care for ourselves physiologically and emotionally. Like there's so much where it's an adaptation of role for our male counterparts in in education. And if you don't like what why did you go down the rabbit hole? Why did you decide you wanted like what was that calling to be like, I want to understand this and help people?

SPEAKER_03 19:26

Basically, because I'd been so confused and so distant, and I needed to find a way back. You know, it was very much a make or break situation for our relationship.

SPEAKER_05 19:42

Right.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

I didn't want to break the relationship, right? Um, I I wasn't interested in buying a sports car or trading her in for a younger model.

SPEAKER_05 19:50

Right. Um you loved her, you love her, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

So um, and I've I'm a voracious reader, so reading was my thing. Okay, and so I I wanted to know. I wanted to know, and and to be fair, she was very helpful at the beginning in sending me articles. Here, read this. Maybe this will help. Um, as she was coming across them and learned she would send them to me. Um, interestingly enough, I now send things to her.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Yes, I love that though. But that's so great because you've created a conversation where again, like I equated, I I know that this episode will go if nowhere else to every single one of my friends and their partners. Like, you know, I might as well say hi to you know, Stephen and Bob and RJ, like, because I know my partners, partners are gonna be listening to the this because there's there's not enough out there. And it's even just to start the conversation, like that's not even happening in some relationships that I know, not the ones I mentioned. But like, there are women who are like, how do I even send my husband this? Like, I don't even know if this is me. Like, what how do you even start that conversation in terms of sending information?

SPEAKER_03 21:14

So I think it's interesting. Um, and I I occasionally will throw up stats, and these are US-based. Yeah. Um, but uh there's a survey that was done of men's attitudes towards uh menopause transition. 73% of men said they were involved in these conversations. 73% of women said they had to start them. So men don't typically initiate these conversations, even if they have the information. And part of that is fear. Right. They're afraid of saying the wrong things at the wrong time or doing the wrong thing at the wrong time.

SPEAKER_05 21:55

Fair.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

And so there's a fear that has to be overcome, and it's not going to be overcome if both partners stay silent. Right. So at some point, somebody has to feel brave enough to initiate this conversation. And I come up with a framework that I use with people is sit, listen, believe. So sit down and set aside time. Don't do this over dinner, don't do this during chores, don't do it driving the kids to school. Actually, sit down and set aside time where you're alone. And so that you can spend time doing this. And put it time bound. We're gonna sit down for five minutes, we're gonna sit down for ten minutes.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 22:40

Um, I had a really good conversation the other day. Um With Nakhali Haya, um, who said when you time bound it, it reduces the fight or flight response in a man. When you say to the to a man, we need to talk, immediately his fight or flight response will kick in. And he's either gonna ret re respond with a fight influence in instinct, or he's gonna flight. He's gonna pull away. One of those two things is gonna happen. If you say, Can we talk for five minutes? Now he knows okay, five minutes, I can I can live through five minutes. So that's like sit piece. The listen, please, and this is true for both partners, but especially for men. Listen to what your partner is saying, don't just wait for your turn to talk. And then the the last part is the believe. And this is especially true for men who have started to educate themselves. So maybe they've now got a list of symptoms. They know what a hot flash is.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

Um, they may even have done enough digging to figure out what the biological reason behind it is.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:51

That none of that matters. Listen to what your partner is saying because it's her lived experience that's going to be your best education. Right. Because a hot flash for her is going to be very different from a hot flash from some other woman. Or something you've read online or TikTok influencer. These are not the same people. The person that you're most interested in is the woman in front of you. And listen to her lived experience. And I give an example of this. I'm a yoga teacher. Cool. Um when my wife has hot flashes, she doesn't have them all the time, but when she does have them, uh typically they happen in the mornings. Okay. I know not to invite her to a yoga class first thing in the morning. Adaptation. I listen to her, I understand her lived experience. I know what a hot flash is, I understand the biology behind it. Irrelevant if I don't understand how it impacts her. And I know I've written about this. Women research um symptoms. They want to know about their symptoms. What is this meaning for me? What is why do I wake up at 3 a.m. in the morning? Right. That's that's symptom research. Men research impact. Why is my wife changing? Why isn't it the way she used to be? Why is she awake at 3 a.m. and cranky the next day? Right. That's an impact search. So men look at impacts. And when in this in this survey, a lot of men said they felt the impact on them personally of the paramenopause of paramenopause and the menopause transition. And they also felt the impact on their relationship. So that's what they're going to research. That's two very different conversations.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Very.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

Um, when they bring this together, it's two very different perspectives of looking at the same thing. So that's important to understand is a woman is experiencing these symptoms, and a man is experiencing the impact of those symptoms. And so they've got to come together and understand this is what this symptom means for me. Right. Then the man can understand, oh, okay, that's why it has this impact on me.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

I think that's so that's so important because even and I'll say it even for you know, women dealing with women too, that just in terms of like our lived experience is different. And, you know, I like I sometimes have found it's like, well, you're like this because of, and it's like, no, no, no, like I might this might actually have nothing to do with menopause. I might just be very abrupt today, or I might just not have slept well, or I'm just no longer available for that. That might have nothing to do with it. So it's like it is that understanding of I love that sit, listen, and believe. I think that believe piece is so powerful. I felt seen just by you even saying those three words because our symptoms are different, how we show up is different. The core of who we are, like again, as we evolve as human beings, but you know, I didn't, I'm no longer, I'm not, I'm not not Amy because I'm going through surgical menopause and this change. I'm Amy with like this thing that's happening. And so I also don't want to be forgotten for who I am. I don't want this like perimenopause, menopause thing to become my identity. These are things that are happening to me. And I, Amy, regardless of these things, need to understand what these things are. Just like you, Simon is a partner and Eric is my partner, or my all the other people is like, this is happening to you because of these circumstances. And so, you know, you still have to be these two people, and you're kind of like avengers on the like, how are we gonna manage this whole thing? Um, and if we're still trying to figure out our symptoms because we're so under-researched, and you know, every day you flip a page and it's like, oh, my shoulder hurts because it's frozen, because that's menopause, you know, then there's like all these things that become a list. And I want to be very sure, like even in my own relationship, that my list of things that are happening to me are not all of a sudden just like thrown into a bucket and we just carry around the menopause, perimenopause bucket as like this is who you are now, if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

No, it does absolutely, and you're absolutely right. Not everything is paramenopause, not everything is the menopause transition. People can just have off days. Right. And it's got nothing to do with parametopause. Right. And and it can become too simplistic for partners, especially to say, oh, well, it's hormones.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Right. That dismissal, like sometimes it's like say, you know, well, I didn't it's probably just that. And it's like, but sometimes I don't even want that to be an excuse, right? Like it's not, it's not an excuse for for behavior. I don't want to put a label on it. It's it's not just this like blanket now that at 35 years old, everything that happens from now into 60 all gets thrown in this basket either. It's like we've got to still, which is why I love your like sit, listen, and believe. Um, because when I tell you I'm just having a shit day, don't turn around and tell me it's because I'm, you know, you're probably having a shit day because of, you know, your hormones are out of whack. It's like, nope, just having a shit day. Someone stepped on my foot, like, has nothing to do with that, right? Like I might be feeling that my freaking best today, but then something happened, but it has nothing to do with my health, right? Like there's this, I'm I'm I'm interested to watch, and you and I are in the field, and it's like I'm interested to to watch and be a part of trying to keep the conversation, like finding that balance so that we don't go so like it has the potential to go this far, right? Like it has the potential to go either like, you know, not paying attention at all to everything is always this. And so that is there's so much power in like the believe in terms of what's happening to you and also finding for men and for women to understand how we um understand and take in information. And that's something my husband and I are really good at. He's also a ferocious reader and he'll he's reading this book called It's a Guy Thing. And it's about, you know, it's funny when you said the five-minute thing because Eric in this book it was, you know, women go into a store to like shop and look around, men go into a store to like find a thing. So why is your partner frustrated when you're just like wandering through a store? They actually don't understand why you're not there to buy a thing. And so, you know, there's so much just in who we are as humans and as the sex we're living in and who we are and how we're identifying at the time is going to have a massive impact on how we go through this transition of life and evolution.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

And I think that it's important that men realize this is a long-term learning experience. You know, anywhere from four to ten years or longer. Um, you know, my wife has been in paramenopause for 10 years now, and no signs of coming out of paramenopause yet. Um, so this has been a 10-year transition for our relationship, and that's a long time, that's right the way through her 40s that we've been experiencing this transition and learning. And every day she shows up as a different person because she doesn't know. When she wakes up in the morning, it depends on what her night was like.

SPEAKER_05 31:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

It depends on what pain she's in that morning, what her level of pain is, um, what's hurting. You know, is it just a headache? Okay, take a couple of adril, fine. Is it this random hip pain that's showing up every now and then? Could be that. Right. You know, so there's a there's a lot for a man to adapt to. Right. But I think that what they need to realize is they've got time to adapt. Right. You don't have to adapt overnight. Right. Give yourself some grace that you are going to adapt slowly, but they are going to adapt. And this is comes back to this adaptation. It's also a time for the woman to adapt in her relationship. So, you know, we were talking about, uh I was talking about shopping lists. Um, this is a time for women to recognize it's time to step back because it's impossible for a man to step in if she's still occupying that space. Agreed. So if she no longer wants to occupy that space, learn to step back and allow him the grace to make mistakes. Because maybe this is new experience for him. You know, he's not going to load the dishwasher the way you do it.

SPEAKER_05 33:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 33:09

Being very simplistic. Yeah. But there's going to be things that will annoy you. Try and step back away from those and let him learn because you've got a long time to learn. Right. It's not he has to learn it this week.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Right. I think that's so important. It's like we need to offer ourselves patience and grace on both sides for ourselves personally and for our partners that we're choosing to go through this time with. Yeah. And I think that's so huge. Like when you're, you know, you have to be a beginner and an expert all at the same time in life all the time. And so now you have to in this stage of life for all of us as well.

SPEAKER_03 33:48

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's really important for couples to recognize that this isn't an overnight transition. Right. That this is going to be around for years, possibly a decade or more. Yeah. And over that time, the experience is going to change because, you know, there's depending on what you read, there's a hundred different symptoms for paramenopause and the menopause transition. And so a woman can experience any or all or none or a few or some on one day and some on another day. And that's going to change over the life of the transition. Yeah. And that's she's not going to be the same as she was eight years ago. My wife isn't the same as she was. She's not experiencing it the same as she was, partly because she's very privileged in that um medically uh MHT was an option for her. And so she's able now to um experience things differently because she's on MHT. Right. And we we recognize that as a couple, that's a privilege. Um, not every woman has that option or that access.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

Right. And also I agree. And when you do start to take the, you know, the care of the doctor and the hormones and all the that also doesn't change overnight. Some of those things, you know, do I know a a lot of my girlfriends who went on estrogen and within two weeks they're like, oh my God, like the clouds part in the thing, but then you go on progesterone and it keeps you tired. And you know, like everything takes time. And, you know, I I love, like I said, the sit, listen, believe. And I feel like then the like bubble over that is like patience and kindness for each of like for both sides, right? Like you, you need to have patience and kindness for me, and I need to have that for you. And I and I think that that's so important. When you're so a man is like, oh my God, Simon, like, my what do I do? Like, where do you start? How you know, like you said, sharing information. Where do you get involved in in helping people?

SPEAKER_03 36:00

So um, yeah, so definitely um come find me at the quiet transition. Um, I'm happy to help. Um, and I write and I interview experts in the field. Um, and so it's not just me and my opinions, it's actually you know grounded in science. For sure. Um, and then I mean, I do consume a lot of medical and clinical information through PubMed. Um, so uh I get a summary once a week that tells me all the latest research that's going on. So I read research papers. I'm not suggesting the average man read research papers, right? That's why there's you. But there's yeah, and but there are some good reliable sources, and um, you know, I think that's part of a man's education and educating himself. And yes, it's it's very helpful for a woman to start the ball rolling. Read something, pass that on, say, hey, this is something I read, this is useful. But what I think is really important for men to realize is it's not their partner's place to educate them. The partner has enough going on and they're trying to educate themselves as well. Right. You can't rely on them to send you all the information. You get a starter pack, then you need to roll with it and start to look for yourself and find things that are relevant to you and your partner's experience. And that's that's where it comes back to that believe piece. Right. So some of the things you you read and you hear are not gonna be relevant because that's not your partner's experience. Right. The way you're gonna find that out is I read this. Does this apply to you? Is this how you experience? No, that's not how I experience a hot flash. Hot flashes for me are this, right? You know, um, itchy skin is this, itchy ears is this, right? Meat ick, my my new favorite meat ick where a woman just cannot stand the thought, the sight, the sound of meat. Oh, just not no, just no, that's not happening, which changes the conversation around what's for dinner, yeah, dramatically. Now we're all vegan. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

That's so interesting that you say that. And I just sometimes I equate the experience hormonally to like what I went through. I was lucky enough to have babies and I was pregnant. And there was times where I like looked at chicken and went, oh my god, never in my life. So it's it's interest, that's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 38:37

Yeah, it's a very similar, you know, time of life. Um uh pregnancy and postpartum is a is a similar uh, you know, surge of hormones and and change of hormones. So yeah, I mean, I think that's the important piece is yes, go out, find this information, definitely educate yourself, but keep bringing it back to your partner, and that's where that conversation can start, is just asking the right questions. And those right questions are how does this impact you? I read this, I saw this, I listened to this. How's that feel for you? Is that something you experience? And and believe the fact when they say yes it is or no, it isn't. Okay, no, it isn't. I don't need that piece of information anymore. Set that to one side, look for something else. Because that's really what you're trying to do is right bring the pieces together as part of your education.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Yeah, I think I yeah, like I think about if I was gonna send Eric something when you're just and in your, you know, where you where we talked about where like women are trying to figure it out and the impact and women are like symptoms. It's helpful. I even think of like, where do I, how can I be helpful too, to say, you know, hey Eric, I read this article because these three things popped out for me. Um, this is lived experience for me, or I'm feeling these things, or you know, and I happen to have an open dialogue with my husband about these things where some people may not. Um, but just as like a tip, maybe say, like, this is why I liked it. I want to highlight this point. And then I would say on the boys side of things, because it doesn't always happen, is ask the questions like you just said. Like say, hey, what like if I just forward you an article, a quick email back or a conversation would be like, what stood out for you? Yeah. Because it might be like a small, it might be a sentence, and then we don't want to leave you guessing, because if you're like, oh, again, you're figuring, you know, everything's figure outable, and you're like, oh, this is what it was, and then you're assuming this was my thing, right? Like there's right, it's we still have to uncover why that's of interest, I would think is a good place to start too.

SPEAKER_03 40:46

It's got to keep coming back to the lived experience, it has to keep coming back to that, and understanding what this experience is like for your partner and what that means for you as a partner, right? So, what adjustments are you gonna have to make? Because the biggest adjustment, I think, the biggest adjustment I had to make was understanding that my partner, my wife, is not the same person every hour of the day. It can change hour by hour, or simply the person she woke up as is not necessarily the person she's going to bed as. Because of things that have happened during the day. And you have to be able to allow for that, allow that grace.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Right. And I think it's also if we remember, you know, we love each other, and there's like if you're coming from a place of we are in love and I love you and support you, and you love and support me, and we're going to lead with the understanding that I'm not gonna wake up and be an asshole today just because I woke up to be an asshole, like you kind of almost like need to remove that piece because if we, if we know our baseline is love and kindness and the desire to keep this relationship working, then to me that helps alleviate taking it personally. Not every time is it gonna feel great, but if you always go back to we're we're starting from a place of love, like I think of my friends who are it's dating, but when they get a K, or like you send your relationship, like you're texting and you get a K, like you can read into that letter however you want, but if you're coming from a place of like we love each other, we're good, then that K is like, all right, I'm just gonna give you some space. This isn't about me. This isn't happening to me, it's happening to her. How can I help out? You know, just like if you wake up and you're not having a great day, how can I just, you know, it's it's starting from a baseline. Like you think it's always like, hey, are we in this? All right, let's be in the mud, but let's know that we're always coming from a place of of love. Like I'm not waking up one day to just hate you. Like I don't hate you, right? Like I think there's some of that that needs to happen too, so that you're starting from like an even playing field.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

Yeah, and I think it's important you you're talking there about um having a social circle, and women quite often have those support systems. Men as they age typically decline in their support systems. Yeah, that's true. Their female partner becomes their support system. So it's really important for women to understand that men probably aren't talking about this anywhere else outside of their own relationship. They're the person they're talking to about this, they're not going to their male colleagues at work and saying, you know, my wife's going through this, is your wife going through this? Does she experience this? How are you coping with this? They're not they're not having those conversations.

SPEAKER_02 43:54

Right, not yet, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 43:56

Yeah, yeah. And so women probably are having those conversations. What's what's happening with you today? Or God, I I had this happen. And you know, I know it's because of this, but I hate him today. Right. So my wife has these happen and her friends talk her down. Um, she talks her friends down. Yeah, we talk about those things. Um, I'm very lucky in that her friends and some of her work colleagues who are in paramenopause understand the work I'm doing and are happy to talk to me through her.

unknown 44:33

Right.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

So I get this broader exposure to what women are going through, you know. For sure. A funny experience happened the other day where uh one of the people that my Wife works with who is a senior exec at a multinational, said, I think I'm gonna become a plumber. Okay. Yeah, it was just like, I'm gonna give all of this up. I don't want this anymore. Right. I'm gonna go back to school, I'm gonna study to become a plumber, and I don't have to deal with all of this.

SPEAKER_05 45:03

Right.

SPEAKER_03 45:05

Now she didn't next day. She was back in it. But that was her reaction that day.

SPEAKER_05 45:11

Right.

SPEAKER_03 45:12

Now, how does her husband or her male partner react to that? Right. When she comes home and says, I'm done, I'm gonna go back to school and become a plumber.

SPEAKER_02 45:22

How does he? What would you advise that gentleman who had his wife come home that said, I want to be a plumber?

SPEAKER_03 45:27

Wait and see if she still wants to do it next week.

SPEAKER_02 45:30

Got it.

SPEAKER_03 45:31

Because I like probably doesn't. You know, this is transitional.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

Right. That's hilarious. You bring up workplace, and I think um I'd love to have some of your insight and have a conversation about workplace because there's men in the workplace, and you may or may not be married, you may or may not, you know, be into women, you may or like there's all of a sudden you're there with these women of various age and stage. And so how do you navigate that? Like, how are you working with men to navigate that right now?

SPEAKER_03 46:05

So so I think the first thing I remind everybody is regardless of your age and gender, you know someone in the paramenopause or menopause transition. Right. You absolutely do. That's just a fact of life. Yep. Um, so when you look at the people you're working with, know that somebody, maybe not all of them, but at least somebody in that group that you work with, co-workers, people you manage, people who manage you, are in that transition. So that's the first thing. Second thing is it's an HR nightmare for most organizations because they don't have policies in place. Yeah. They don't have training in place. So this is something that men typically are navigating again on their own. So, really, at this point, if there are no clear policies, if there are no clear guidelines for men to operate within, then it really has to come down to grace. It really does. It really has to come back to there's a probability. And again, like you said earlier, don't assign this immediately. Right. Don't say, well, she must be in paramenopause because she's that age, and so therefore, this is a hormone problem. Right. Don't assign it immediately. That shouldn't be your first assumption. But if you see a repetition in pattern, then understand that this, you know. So for example, brain fog in within the workplace gets seen as a performance issue. Don't go there first. Yeah. That's not not your go-to spot. This isn't necessarily a performance issue. Right. Look beyond that. Look, try and look for something that may be influencing that performance issue before you start putting people on pips.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

Right, right. And the brain fog, I mean, I know that from like that's one of the first things before you even know it's happening to yourself and you're forgetting things. And people are like, you know, how could you have forgotten that? Great question. I don't know either. I've never lost anything in my life. How? Like, I'm also trying to struggle with that, right? So yeah, I like that piece of grace. And how do you do you? And I think this is nuanced, and we're still at the new stages of this, but how much do you lead with curiosity in the workplace in terms of like where the that like that to me feels like so unbalanced and so uncomfortable right now? I think it's like, how much do we know, or or maybe we can't, but how can men help influence this HR nightmare? Like, where how can we be advocates for one another?

SPEAKER_03 48:49

I think that that's absolutely the word is advocate is actually making noise within your environment. And unfortunately, male voices are heard more than female voices. That's just that's just fact. Um, and so you've got that voice, use that voice. Right. Say, hey, look, this is something I'm experiencing. I think this might be a reason. We have no guidelines, we have no policies in place right now. Give me some guidelines, tell me how I am supposed to handle my employee, my co-worker, my manager when they appear to be different. Right. Very different. And I think one of the other pieces that gets missed, and I talk about the ripples, um, we end up in this, we can end up in this cycle of conflict with partners at home.

unknown 49:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 49:53

That doesn't stay at the front door for either partner. Right. So the male partner can take that to work and then it becomes a game of kick the cat. It rolls down the hill until somebody is the cat and they get kicked. Right. And one of the things I come back to all the time is people don't leave jobs, they leave managers. Yes, agreed. And so when that manager changes, male or female, because of this transition, and nobody's looking at that bigger picture.

SPEAKER_05 50:25

Right.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

And certainly men are not in that picture at all within HR policies. HR policies are focused on women, just as they are for maternity leave and there's no paternity leave. Right. There needs to be a bigger conversation around men getting support around this transition because it's going to impact them as well. If their partner's awake at 3 a.m. in the morning, they're also coming to work groggy, impatient, snappy, because they've been up since 3 a.m.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Yeah. Well, and I think when you say ripple, like I even think of, you know, if you're living in a situation at home that is frustrating, and obviously that we can equate this to multiple things that are happening, but we're talking about this one is like if you are dealing with perimenopause and menopause at home, and you're having a and you're you have a limited view as most do right now, until we continue to s to spread the word as we are. You have a limited view. So to you, like when you said ripple, I thought of like a man leaving home with, you know, his preconceived notions of what a perimenopausal woman is, and then goes to work and just like then labels his colleague um the same. And all of a sudden now I may not even, I might be 25 and you don't even know it. Like I'm nowhere even nearer. I'm trying to get pregnant or whatever. But just that ripple effect of the cause and effect is like if this is happening at home and this is my lived experience, then I'm gonna go to work with this lived experience if we're not educating and helping and policies and procedures, and you know, ultimately the education, that then that woman is just getting painted with the same brush. Because when I said the word curiosity, I know you can't just be like, hey, Amy, are you going through perimenopause? Let's talk about that. Like we're not comfortable enough in the workplace yet. Maybe we will, maybe we won't be. But um, you know, it's just to me, there's also that if you're having a shitty experience at home, man or woman, we're taking that into the workplace with all of that as well. And again, with the preconceived notions of what perimenopause menopause has been like painted. Um, because we've got to do a lot of uneducating people as well, I find, through this whole thing. Like, you know, it's we think of things we've said, like I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy. I might be having a moment, but I'm not crazy. There's something physiologically happening to me. So like, don't ever say you're acting crazy. Like we've seen it in movies and stuff, and like you often end up punched out. Like, these are things we'd rather not be having happen to our bodies. Like, it's hard enough for for us in the workplace as it's been to even get to the places and spaces we are, and we're not even there yet. And now, you know, the best thing for us is this education is coming out. But again, it's that pendulum. We want to make sure it doesn't, again, you just don't get like smudged with the same brush that like now if you're having a bad day or you don't like a suggestion or whatever, it's just you're just this, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 53:33

Absolutely. I mean, I think that's it's all too easy to do that, to give to um put people in boxes. Yeah. Um, and I think that's that's definitely a danger, is we move into more education, and that's why I think it's really important for men to get well educated, not just have lists of symptoms.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

Right. I think that's so important. I could talk to you forever, Simon, and I am so grateful um that you chose to do this for yourself, for your wife, for your partnership, for your marriage, and now for other couples and men. Um, because you know, we know this is a third of our lives. This we we want to be married and in love and you know, exist as healthy human beings as best we can. And I think there the work that you're doing is next level. It's so important. And I know this episode itself will be passed around. Um, and I know people are gonna listen. So, how does someone get a hold of you, find you? We'll put it in the show notes, but how does someone get a hold of you?

SPEAKER_03 54:45

Uh thequiattransition.com. That's the easiest way. That goes to my Substack where I have podcast, I have great long form writing, short form writing, long form video, short form video. Um, it's the same on YouTube. So if people prefer to watch videos, I have short clips and long videos. Um, and then for couples, um, and you can put this in the show notes, but I have a free guide. Um, amazing. So it's broken down by where you are on your journey and what resources are going to be most helpful for you on that stage of your journey.

SPEAKER_02 55:20

I love that. I love that. Thank you. This has been enlightening and amazing and beautiful. And I look forward to supporting the work that you're doing to help um all men help us with this so we can help each other. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 55:37

Thank you for having me.