Ep. 18: Aimee's story & being strong, healthy, and vibrant through the menopause transition.

Aimee Debow is the founder of Menovate, a corporate menopause education company, and a former telecom executive who spent 25 years climbing the corporate ladder. For 10 years, she suffered silently through perimenopause and menopause while seeing female colleagues experience the same struggle in complete secrecy. One pivotal moment during a major presentation to senior leadership forced her to make a choice, because she couldn't remember anything despite being the expert. She left corporate, took a year to rebuild her health through sleep, nutrition, exercise, and mental health, and came back transformed. Now she's on a mission to bring menopause education into workplaces across Canada, working with companies to build policies, implement e-learning courses, and create space for conversations that have been silenced for far too long.

Key Components

• How a high-performing executive nearly lost her career because no one told her what was happening to her body.
• From 20 expected attendees to 500 showing up (plus people outside the room) and what this tells us about how desperate women are for this conversation.
• Why companies are legally and financially vulnerable if they don't act now: Two countries have already mandated menopause policies—Canada is next.

"Ten percent of women are quitting their job because of menopause. Another huge chunk are taking a step back. That is a huge loss to the company."

Connect with Aimee on LinkedIn
Check out Menovate.ca

👉 Click here to join the movement at downthereaware.org

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🤘 Podcast produced by Binge-Worthy Studio

For informational and entertainment purposes only — not medical advice. We're here to get loud, not to play doctor.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:45

25 years in corporate, leading teams, driving change, building a career she loved. Then Menopause showed up. Mid-career, mid-stride. And when she went looking for support at work for resources, for one honest conversation, she found nothing. Silence. So she got allowed. My guest today is Amy Debao, founder of Menivate, and she's on a mission to blow the doors off one of the most underdiscussed realities in the workplace, Menopause. Not the awkward lunch and lure, not the pamphlet in the boardroom, but the honest practical no-shame version. And it keeps happening. HR sets out 50 chairs hoping maybe 50 people will show up, then watches the room fill up while a few hundred more join online. Afterward, employees say the same thing every time. We've never heard this at work before. Thank you. It's about time. Because this silence has a cost. It costs companies their best people. It costs women their well-being. And Amy decided that that was a bill she wasn't willing to keep paying. Today we're talking about what happens when a workplace finally brings the conversation into the open and why supporting women through menopause is good for people and uh really good for business. This is the Down There Aware Podcast. I'm Amy Milne. Let's get loud. Okay, I am so excited to welcome Amy to the show. Amy, welcome. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me here today. I am beyond excited to have this conversation with you today. I um I kind of found you online. I was, you know, looking for female voices that are standing out on LinkedIn because I think um, you know, women's issues in the workplace are completely, I mean, we're all underserved on all areas. And, anyways, I came across the amazing work that you're doing and I reached out to you. And I'm so grateful you're here to join us today. So please tell our amazing listeners who you are.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

So I'm Amy Dubeau, and I'm the founder of Menovate. And it is a company that does menopause education, but very specifically corporately. So I do menopause talks, I work with HR and policy, and I have a series of six e-learning courses that I sell into and work with companies to put into their e-learning platforms. And I'm super passionate about what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Yes, I have heard you speak um in front of a large amount of people, and you are very passionate. So I'm excited to bring that fire to the podcast today. So all of these things tend to start, all of the things we're doing in the women's health issue uh place seem to start with personal experiences. You know, this is what started for me for this podcast and for the event that we're we're producing to raise funds for women's below-the-belt health issues. And I know, so I can't wait for you to share that your journey to what got you to what you're doing started with a personal one. So please tell me.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Sure. So I worked corporate, mostly telecom for over 25 years. And I love what I did. I did all different roles and continued to climb up the ladder. And for the last 10 years, I suffered tremendously with perimenopause and menopause. And so that journey looked had various stages. And I would say the first five years of it, I really thought I was severely ill. Um, I did go to the multitudes of doctors, uh, was dismissed, like many women are, and nobody pieced it together. So I saw a neurologist because I really thought I had dementia, severe dementia.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

I couldn't remember anything. Um, I had two severe frozen shoulders that needed surgery. So I was in, I went to ortho. And yeah, nothing was pieced together. And every time I would say, is this hormonal related? They look at me like I was crazy. So those were that was the first five years of the journey. And then I started doing my own research because I knew that this couldn't be just, you know, all of these things happening. There have to be some correlation. And as I started doing more and more research and reading papers, especially in the UK, because they are significantly ahead of us in men on this topic, I realized, wow, I'm in perimenopause. Like this is classic perimenopause. So I had anxiety that I had never in my entire life had, frozen shoulders, as I said, skin and nail issues, heart palpitations, face wats, night sweats. So I had a lot of them, and they were in very, I was one of the 25% of women that had very severe symptoms. So all almost all of my body joint hurt had some impact. And and that's quite normal as I've gone through the journey because estrogen receptors are in over 400 parts of your body. So you, different parts of you respond differently, and different women's receptors respond differently. So their lack of the estrogen in those areas responds differently. And so mine had this really intense um response to it. So now I knew what it was, and I started to look around and I was in a unique position. I was the chief of staff for the president of one of the largest telecom companies in Canada, and I would see women coming in and out of the office with the same things as I was suffering. So these dark circles under their eyes from not sleeping, and the, you know, putting their hair off in a ponytail and sweater off and on when they're sweating. And as I would approach them, they would not have the conversation with me. There was just so much stigma and so much don't don't like, don't put that label on me because I don't want anything that goes with it. And I had an epiphany moment. So I was presenting a very large project to the senior team, and I lived and breathed this project, and I knew everything about it. I I had a team, I was working on it day and night and months, and I, you know, prepped the slides and I was ready. Then I went in to present and I hadn't slept much like I hadn't on most nights. But the worst part was here I go, this great opportunity to present, and I can remember like nothing. So that was a moment I knew something had to change at work. That, you know, woman needed to be supported. We needed to have the conversation. Um, most of the people in the room that day were males. And so, you know, I didn't feel the ability to say a word about why I was struggling through this presentation. And I did really struggle through it. And that really was my turning point. So I put my hand up very shortly after and said, I think it's time for me to go. And I took, I had a really great, you know, relationship and I left. And I took a full year to get healthy. So I changed everything in my life from how I eat, how I sleep, how I socialize. And I, you know, I'd love to get into it more with you, but I really changed everything. And at the end of the year, I felt amazing. I just felt like another human being. And I thought, women need to feel this way. Like we should not be feeling the way I felt for the last nine years and feeling so alone and struggling at work where you spend, you know, we had a little bit of a quick conversation before. Yeah, you know, menopause doesn't stay home, it comes with you to work. Sure does a single day. So that was, you know, that's the that was my beginnings of the journey. And then once I started looking for corporate roles again, and I went, no, I I want to do something different. I want to make a change where women at work feel safe and ready and power and power to have this conversation at work. So I created my kids' company.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Yeah. Yeah, which I mean it's it's just so much of what you said, and you know, we we thought it was okay to not feel okay, like for forever. Like it feels like until you know a year ago, before these conversations really got right, like we're seeing them pop up more and more and more in the workplace, was you know, and still is like there's still taboos around it in terms of like, you know, I lived through it with painful periods and endometriosis before my hysterectomy. And you how many times can you call in sick because you've got cramps when nobody like really believes you, anyways? And so you just work through it, and then let alone stand up and say, I've got frozen shoulder parameters, even if you can remember your symptoms because we can't remember anything. And it's just we deserve to feel better, we deserve to have the roles that we're in, and we deserve people to understand what's happening to us, and that's what I love about the journey that you're on is that you're through it. This is all about how to help others, you know, moving forward. So before we jump into what happens when you work with the company, tell me, because I know people are like, okay, but how did she, what did she do in that year that made her feel so good? So tell us about that journey for you.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

So, you know, I obviously I really believe that perimenopause, menopause, post-menopause. And so I'm still post-menopausal, and there's still things I'm going through and will continue to go through. But the things that I really focused, as I said, was exercise, sleep, nutrition, and mental health. And so I definitely work with my medical professionals to make sure I'm on the right medication for me. And that right away is already a challenge because finding a doctor in Canada that's not, if you can afford it, is private there a lot in Canada right now. And if you can't and you go do find a GP, it's really hard to find one who's willing to have a proper conversation and a pro. So, so, so I've done I did a lot of work on that side to find the right match and the right person. Um, and even once you do, there's a lot of you know, balancing to get to the right levels of what you're taking and what you need. But on the other side, so in my talks, I do talk about so sleep is so important. It is so underrated for women because and men, but more for women because we're up all night taking, you know, yes, you're during your menstruation. We're taking a lot of the the up at night with um, even if we are on Mat Leave or not on MAT leave with with all like multiple times and years um with babies. And then in menopause, you know, sleep is really impacted for a good majority. And I'll tell you, I more than six years didn't sleep over three. I didn't sleep more than three hours a night. And yeah, I thought that was totally normal. Like that crazy, you know, and my doctors told me that was normal. But when I finally got some of the right support, you know, some doctors would say to me, not sleeping is as bad as smoking. And I'm like, well, yeah, it's torture.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

It's like it's like a form of torture keeping people awake, like for real.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

So if you're not sleeping, you can't then exercise, you don't have the energy, you can't make good choices on how you eat, you can't be a good employee, you can't be a good spouse or a partner, and you can't be a good parent. So it impacts all your life. So for me, sleep is so important. So it was whether you someone chooses to go get medication for it, which again, oh, there's so much stigma around it, but there's a ton of new medications to help women, everyone, to help people sleep. And actually sleeping is so much better than not taking a medication. And then, you know, putting a whole, literally creating like sleep as a job, like a whole structure around making sure that sleep is important. So sleep nutrition. So you hear a lot now. There is that we you talked about a lot about this on social media, but it's really about not just eating protein, right? It's about finding the right balance between protein and fiber and carbs and fat. As women, we've been told for many years to starve ourselves and be skinny and you know, cardio only. And it's so important for menopause during menopause, and not only menopause, just as you age to be strong and not skinny. And and I'm so happy with this trend of you know, seeing many more women in the gym. And so, yeah, so I weight train four times a week. I um eat a really good, hearty amount of protein and fiber and whole foods and vegetables. And so, so all of these pieces work together. They're not one. Like it's great if you're sleeping, but if you're not doing any exercise and moving. Totally right. It's but but the more you sleep better, the more energy you have for exercise. And the more you exercise, the better you feel. So your mental health, like so they're all intertwined. And so I know it's unusual to have this ability to take a year, but it was this luxury I had and I gave myself because I truly fundamentally believe that woman going through perimenopause can feel amazing. And I do like I feel, I wake up every day energized. And that's really a great message I want to come through is yes, menopause is inevitable because every single woman is going to go through it, every single one. But it doesn't have to be horrific, like it can be so positive and so energetic, and you know, a time of rebirth almost, right? So you're no longer gonna have get pregnant, good or bad, but you're not like there's so many great things about this time of your life. And that's what I try and work with companies to understand how important it is with just a little bit of support, how much financial, cultural, you know, work productivity benefit they get from it. So there's a massive upside for companies to talk about it at work.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Well, and I just can I'm so grateful you did that for yourself because if that is what you get to impart on others. So, like you said, you know, taking a year off isn't a luxury everyone has, but you've now figured out, you've cracked the code on something so you can share that information, right? Like it's it's one of those things when we talk about quantum leaps and things like that. If you can, you've done the research for us, so now it's like, here you go, here's a prescription. And like you said, we all we're all different, and various pieces will be different for us in terms of the hormones and what we're taking. However, like the fundamentals of like sleep and eating well and working out, those are those are positives regardless. That's one thing that we're always talking about in our group of friends is like all the information out there right now is actually some most of it is healthy. Like I have friends who've never lifted a weight before. I also weight train four days a week. My sleep hygiene, I my friends joke because I go to bed at 9.34. I used to be the gal, you know, who would be the last at the party and the first up in the morning. So that three to five hours sleep was normal where I'm like, no, no, what I don't I need to be in bed by 9.34. Like my kids, if they see me on the couch at 10, they're like, what's wrong with mom? Um, because I've just I've realized you can feel good. And it's so nice. And I mean, for me, I lived most of my life on wallet, suffering from endometriosis. And then, you know, I'm living on this side of surgical menopause. And so there's there's little information about there out there about perimenopause and menopause. There's almost nothing about surgical menopause. And even in the workplace for that, it's a significant time amount of time off. And then you need to still get better and and and and so I do agree with you. This whole strong over skinny is so beautiful. And it's, you know, it's not about losing weight, it's body recomposition and just changing that language and is is is going to change people's lives. Like it just, it really is.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Well, it's about living longer, so longevity and living lifespan, right? Well, what health span instead of right. So, you know, my mother unfortunately didn't have the knowledge that I have, and she is living, and and I'm living with her through this of five spinal fractures, right? So she has spinal fractures from no call, from nothing, just from not having bone health and uh not good bone health, and it's purely a menopause-related, non, she didn't do any weight training. She didn't, you know, she didn't, she was on um hormone therapy for a very short time and then taken off of it like a lot of women of her generation. And then she didn't have the protection or the coverage. So, I mean, I talk a lot about, you know, owning your own health journey as well. I know you talk a lot about your health journey. And so we have to self-advocate. Like we have to make sure that if something's not feeling right, you go checking in, making sure, you know, have we had our bone density checked? Um, unfortunately, in Canada, the average woman is gets a bone density at 65. So way, way too late. By 65, you already had spinal, some sort of hip, right, spinal, wrist fracture. Right. You may not even know about it. So getting a baseline of your bone density, most places in the world is 40. And that's what we should be doing and advocating for ourselves. So there's just so I agree, there's a lot of knowledge, there's a lot of, thank goodness, there's a lot more talk. But I will say the experiences I have at work, it's still so silent. For the most part, most companies that bring me in, this is the first time their employees are hearing the word menopause being spoken at work. Um, and that happens over and over again when I come because it's really quiet at the beginning. And then it's like a flood. You know, they really, really want to talk about it and they want their employees, their employers to hear, and they want a space to be comfortable to have this conversation. They want to know what benefits they have and what accommodations can they be given. And it's just so penned up and so needed that once the door is open, it's pretty crazy. You know, there's almost always somebody who leaves in tears and says, like, I have been suffering and I didn't put this all together. Thank you so much. Like, now I know. So it's really rewarding. Um, and the feedback that I get from companies and employees is just remarkable. Like it's, it's, it's literally life-changing for some people.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Yeah. Well, and I think when it comes to the workplace, I mean, it's like any all these systems have to catch up to like our benefit plans for those who have them, I understand not everybody does. And for those companies who have benefit plans for their employees, most of those benefit plans don't, if it's called a benefit and it's not working in our benefit, it's not really a benefit plan. And so, you know, I mean, I want to dig into more what happens in the workplace with you and the things that we can do to change it. But like, if the if the bare minimum of benefit isn't even matching what women need, that needs to change. Like, this is policy life changing from like ground up. And you, you know, it's like we use women, it's been taboo. We can't, we don't want to tell people we're pregnant before, like basically the day we go give birth, because maybe we won't, you know, be able to like keep our jobs or get that promotion. Or, you know, like one of my guests, past guests, Yolanda, who was dealing with infertility issues, and she's at work getting these horrific phone calls and uh about it working or not working, and like who does she go to? Like, we're just not supported. And so if we've all never been supported, why would we think we're supported now? And I think, you know, I I will share as a plug for you, Amy. When we met, my girlfriend Sarah, who works at Spinmaster, she had like two weeks before told me about this like amazing menopause talk that they'd had it work and it was so great and the room was full. And then we put it together when you and I met at that talk, and you were like, they ran out of space. So, like, people need to hear this. Like, you Amy needs to be at your workplaces because it's not one or two people that show up, it is hundreds. Like you told me there's people outside of the room, they had to telecast it, there was people online. Because if you are introducing that conversation, and what a great thing that this company was bold enough to have you there. So, so tell me, so tell me in our audience, like what happened? Like, how do we get how do you even arrive at a workplace and then what happens when you're there?

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah, so Spin Master was amazing. I really appreciate and and I got such positive feedback from you know their employees. But yeah, that day that I arrived, we were setting up and um There was about 20 seats. And one of the one of the leaders that was helping to organize said, Oh, should we take a few seats away? And I was like, What, what, why? And they're like, Well, but you know, people are working from home. I'm not sure if we're gonna get enough. And yeah, hundreds, as you said, showed up. So both in the room and online. And I think they were surprised uh to see that. And and that is kind of my slogan, right? Like expected 20 and 500 showed up because um, so going back to your question, uh I will meet with usually the head of HR or one of the um uh either an ERG or a woman's group. It depends how I come into the company, but we agree on the time. So usually an hour, an hour and a half session. I've done cocktail parties, I've done lunches, we've done it in a restaurant, I've done a breakfast. It really doesn't matter the format. I can do it um online, I can it uh, or I can do it in person. Um, sometimes we do it a lot of the time we do it hybrid. And and I give a talk about, you know, what is this topic of perimenopause and menopause and and what's happening in your body. I mean, it is shocking how the most impactful thing on our lives, so this hormonal change, that females are not educated, never mind male or everyone else in our life that needs to as well. But really, when I go in and I I just did a talk actually at an amazing company who took a while to convince because they said, you know, we're mostly a male-dominated company and we're a startup and we only have 20 and 30 year olds. And I'm like, great. So perfect, you know, this is when you also need to learn what's going on. And they were the most engaged audience I have had because they don't know what's going on during their period, they don't know what's going on during pregnancy, they don't know what's happening in parimal, and it's a continuum of hormonal changes. I mean, you really are only not hormonal for your first 10, 11 years before you get your period, right? The rest of our lives, we are in some sort of fluctuation of hormonal. And they just wanted to take all this information in and learn. Beautiful. And and so we do need to understand. We need to know what's going on so that we can share with our partners and our employers, and so that it just becomes this normal. I mean, I think if it's so lucky as females, we get to have this fluctuation in our in these hormones for our whole life. Why? So we can bring other humans into this world, right? Right. And and that is just what happens for a female because of how we're built and what we do, right? It as our our side of everything else incredible that females do, but work wasn't really built for that. It was built for someone who doesn't have hormonal changes at any stage of their life. So so going back, so I come in and I'll do a talk. Um, I'll obviously ask questions, and then I bring a questionnaire for the the people that are in the audience. So not only do um I start educating, which is the core to bringing menopause into the work, is to start educating. So educating HR leaders, educating employees, think educating the executive team, and anyone involved in policy as well. So, you know, really starting to educate is the core number one. And so that that's why I started this business, right? To start educating. And so that I will do this talk, and then I leave this. I said there's a questionnaire, and so that I give feedback back to the company so they get a whole bunch to learn as well out of this talk. Um, and that's number one. Usually it sometimes happens in different order. Um, and then that's usually number one. And number two, I will come back to do a second, which goes deeper into you know, how do you talk to your manager? As a manager, how do you talk to your employees? How do we go deeper in this conversation? Like there are so many other ways. How do you get senior female leaders to stand up and start talking about I'm going through like just normalizing it, right? When you have a leader who is willing to say, I'm going through it, it's normal, I'm gonna talk about it at work. It opens up the rest of the employees to feel safe to have that conversation and go, yeah, it it's like it's a normal, natural transition that each one of us is gonna go through, some of us worse than others, and some of us are gonna need some accommodation, and and that's okay. Um, but so that's top, that's one. And the two is I told you I have these e-learning platforms. So that allows there's one for males, there's one for HR. So as I said, there's different versions of it, and there's different people who need different forms of the education, but those people can um employees can watch at their desk. So they just take an hour, they watch it at their desk. It can be a private if they don't want to come to a talk. So, you know, it's a different way of learning from different people. So I offer both of those um options. And as I said, sometimes it's the e-learning first, then it's a talk, the first a talk and e-learning. But it starts with this education. That's really where it starts and opens the reduction of stigma. And there's one more side to it. And you know, this is great for culture and employees and females to feel better. But I get unbelievable engagement from males as well. They want to know, they want to learn, they want to, you know, often they'll go, okay, now I understand my wife. Like, right. So they want, they don't know what if if many of us don't know what's happening, then they really don't know. But they want to. And so engaging the males and allies is just at work and everywhere, but specifically at work, because a lot of corporations are top heavy of males. Um, it just bit builds empathy, right? Of what someone's going through and how to have a proper conversation. So I work through some of that as well.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

I love that. Because I think, like I was I was writing down notes and um, as you were saying things, and it's that speak a little bit about it. Maybe it's still so new that you don't, but to me, there's this like I wrote down the word accountability because I think of, you know, when we listen to some of the doctors speak right now, and they're like, we learned about menopause for 20 minutes, and then, you know, we learned about everything else. And these people who learned about menopause for 20 minutes are the ones who are telling us they know our bodies better. So you now have been invited into these workplaces, and there's like this pat on the back, like, look, we did it, but what's the accountability? Like, what are you seeing post you showing up? Like, you know, it's great for us to have the conversation and people come into the room, but then what kind of accountability and is is ongoing and that keeps happening that you've seen? Like maybe it's both sides. Maybe you see nothing and it's a great conversation. Everybody leaves going, like, oh my God, that was great. And or other people are like, yay, and how will we do more? Like, what are you seeing?

SPEAKER_01 30:02

So for the most part, I think it is a relatively new topic for companies for sure. There are handfuls of companies, both in Canada and the States. Um, as I mentioned, Europe is quite a bit ahead. Um, but there's still lots to be done there. Um there are some that have, you know, handfuls of companies that have been talking this for one or two years already. And so, you know, they've done multiple talks. They've done so some of the things I do is I'll do a review of the benefits. And so that's like a next step, right? And so many companies have these benefits that apply to perimenopause, menopause, postmenopause, like psychology and pelvic health and physio, but they're never tied that these are menopause denifies. And so when you ask part of my questionnaire, like when I ask the employees, do you have menopause benefits? The answer is always no. Even though they probably have, you know, even a wellness um bucket as well, right? So making sure they understand both the corporate take responsibility to say these are our menopause benefits or benefits that apply to menopause and make employees um aware. As I said, having a senior female champion or even a male champion, but as long as there's you know an HR lead on menopause is really important. So is this happening at many companies? No. But there's a lot of things that can be done. You know, are there a chat group? Is there uh you know, a meeting that male and females both can come and have, you know, a weekly conversation about? So there's many things that can be done. Are they doing all of these? No. I think there's these are the baby steps. So the beginning is yes, they start with education, which is great. But I do talk about this is not a once in a you know, one-time thing. This is being a multi-generational ignorant ignoring at work. Yeah. So it's going to take time and lots of repetitive repetition to get this started. Like there's still many times after I leave a company, if I came back, like they're like, well, I still don't, you know, I'll talk to my girlfriends, but I'm still not comfortable talking about this at work, right? So we have a long way to go. And um I do think it does start with the education part.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

So whether Oh, 100%. I mean, you have to give it language. Like I even think like when I was teaching way back when I was a child and youth worker, and I used to, because I don't have a filter and it was all right, and I didn't, I was teaching um body health to like in grade five, you know, you learn about getting your period, wet dreams, you learn about, you know, your body parts, what they're actually called, and all that kind of stuff. And I loved it because I happen to work in an inner city community. And so I had a lot of kids whose parents were younger than me. And I was like, so we're gonna like, I need to educate you on your on what's happening to your body. And you know, I was I because I was never taught, I literally took tampons and put them in water. We played and touched pads, like we did all those things so that we could normalize that, and so that people had a name and a thing and and they knew what it was, and they weren't ashamed by it. Like again, it was just little old me doing the best I could in that group, but at least we talked about it in a in a non-judgmental way. And that's still tough for people to do in the school system to teach puberty, let alone what we're trying to do and undo it. And then with all of you know, the layers of of his history and how we're supposed to be and who women are and how we're supposed to show up. And it's just it's it has to start with education, it has to start with the uh with the conversation. And and I'm not surprised by your response in terms of like, we have a long way to go. This is just the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Yeah. So just the beginning. So two things I don't think I covered that I mentioned to you. So, like, you know, the benefits for a company though is also enormous, right? So as I said, like the ultrafot, but the stats are really staggering. So 10% of women are quitting their job because of mad lots, right? So they're not You're a perfect example. You left, you took a year off. So you're a high performer. I talk to the executive women all the time, like heads of banks and very high-level, high performing, and they quit because they thought they were burnt out or they no longer have the confidence, or they're not willing. So the 10% are quitting. Another huge chunk are taking a step back, so they're not putting their hand up for so that is a huge loss to the company, right? Women at the right age with the right history of the company and uh leadership roles, plus they're doing all sorts of extracurricular stuff in the company, they just walk out the door, and and it's really expensive to replace that and replace, you know, even just look at the just the core cost of hiring, you know, someone to read. Totally, but all the institutional educational loss, sick leave is costly as well. Productivity loss is costly as well. So there's a lot, ma billions of dollars of loss if you don't deal with this. And and it's only gonna be a matter of time before this is mandated. So in the UK and Australia, they both are the two first countries that have mandated that workplaces start having proper menopause policies in place. So UK is in 2027, any company over 250 employees must have an actual, a tangible menopause policy.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

And um, just a few weeks ago, I was called to the House of Commons. And so it's great to see that Canada is has just formed a committee and they're looking at you know what laws and policies need to be in place for companies, and not only companies, but you know, our education, uh, our health system and everything. But the fact that it's hit their radar shows that this is really an important topic and that companies might as well start doing this now because it's you know, there are legal implications, there are financial implications, and there are cultural implications. So I think the ones that talk about this at work and have it out in the open have not only cultural but financial benefits from it.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

Oh, huge. Like the whole, I mean, we know we keep women healthy, and the world is a healthier place. Like, and we're 51% of the population, like we're we're you know, we're not just a couple of cuties sitting in a corner. Like we are significantly important to this world. And I think the other piece, and I don't know how much you focus there, but the other piece is that surgical menopause piece is that there are women in their 20s having hysterectomies in their 30s, in their 40s, well before perimenopause even hits. And there is little to no information for that. A 24-year-old who's just had a hysterectomy who's now in surgical menopause, does not have a group of friends that look like you and I that is talking about it. And the layers of what a young woman might be going through in terms of the loss of being able to have children, all of a sudden in surgical menopause. Like, there's a whole core cohort of group that this isn't just 35-year-old women plus or 45 when perimenopause. Like, it is literally our life, like it can happen at any age that a women woman has to have a hysterectomy that puts them into surgical menopause.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

100%. So I do talk about it. I mean, I think for the most, the average human that thing menopause is an old lady thing. Totally. That is a hot flush, right? Like that's the standard knowledge. So even step one is the fact that this starts many, many years before in your late 30s or early 40s, already is like that's the height of your career. Like you're not huge. This is like late 30s. Some of people are just the beginnings, even of their career.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

And then lots, as you just said, and also the trans community, right, are also affected by it. And surgical or any, there's there are other health things that put you in menopause as well, right? Um, and most surgeons do not warn you. Like if they're doing the surgery, they're doing the hysterectomy. And I often get people calling me, oh my god, I'm like gonna have a hysterectomy. And I'm like, have you talked to your doctor about what the post-hormone response is gonna be? And they're like, No, my surgeon won't talk to me about that. There, they their answer is we'll we'll deal with that after, but you can't deal with it after. It's so profound. Once you've had your ovaries removed, you're immediately in this intense menopause that you're not like sometimes that can be worse than the hysterectomy is. Like, this is now a life-impacting, as I said, over a hundred symptoms, 400 parts of your body that are now, and and you can't wait. Like you have to, they have they need to have a conversation early on in the conversation of your need to have your uterus taken, or sorry, you need to have your ovaries taken up. Yeah, let's talk about what's going to happen in menopause because yeah, it's quite shocking.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Yeah, and you bring up a point too. And I mean, I was put in drug-induced menopause in my 20s. I was put on a drug called Lupron, which I know is still actively used today. And I was in my 20s dealing with menopausal symptoms, and I had them really rough. And this was when um the uh the study had come out, and my mom was going through menopause and the HRT was like literally banned. What are you talking about? So, like I'm walking around with hot flashes, I can't see. I'm I'm like, I've got heart palpitations a little bit, and I'm like 23 years old. And I like kind of knew about menopause, but not really, because no one talked to me about it. My mom wasn't talking about it, and like you couldn't find an article or a person. And so, you know, I think it's important that while this is absolutely 100% happening to the 100% of the population that is 35 years and older, it is also happening to a significant population under that as well. And so going into the workplace and the work that you're doing, you know, invites all ages and all stages of people in their careers to start the conversation. And it's that's huge.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Yeah, and I mean I I I think also like there's so many layers of this. Like there's when I just talked, you know, I just talked to this group and uh there was several women, not the young group, but a different group, but they were like, we went because females are having babies later, they literally go straight from pregnancy into perimenopause. And and you know, the question is, am I postpartum or pre-menopause? And so, you know, the that overlap is becoming even closer, right? So the age is is overlapping a lot. So yeah, there's so many intricacies and complexities of it, but the more we have this discussion and the more companies are willing to be supportive and add in accommodations and have the conversation, the better all of our lives are. Well, that's just it.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

What do you what does what would be um someone who's listening is like, oh my gosh, I how do I get how do I talk about this at work? Like, what are some of your tips for even going to your leader? Like it uh starting the conversation. Like, I'm Amy and I'm at work and I don't know what to do, but I'm in it. What are some of the things that you've learned along the way that are helpful?

SPEAKER_01 42:07

So I would say like take a look at your benefits, see what's covered and what you can piece together as would help you. Um obviously, so the first start is if you're starting to feel this or any changes in your body, um, mental, physical, emotional, right? Um, start tracking your symptoms. So on my website, I have a tracker, it's their standard, you know, piece of paper, but you can do it with AI, you can do it whatever way you want. But it's really important to track your symptoms. I love that, the intensity of them and the frequency of them. And then the real important piece is which ones are impacting your life because there are different things you can do for certain symptoms, and you want to address the ones that are impacting your life. And that's when you know you have to go have a conversation with your doctor. So that's you can start that like through your menstrual cycle. That can be at any age. It's so important to really, what are you feeling? What's hurting to have this conversation with your doctor? Once you've done that and you've gone to doctor and you know, you know, it if should you be on HRT, should you not? I would look at the lifestyle changes. One is all like how could because that helps starting the more you build bone density and muscle mass early, the more you exercise, the more you eat better. Obviously, all helps you transition better. So those are your outside. The inside is I tell people to treat the conversation with their boss like a meeting. So book it in their calendar so it has significance. Make sure you have enough time. So don't book a 15-minute, like take an hour if that's what you need. Go in prepared, like you would a business meeting, factual. So it don't make this emotional, make it factual. You don't have to give your whole health um history right, but you have to say, here are the symptoms I am experiencing. Here are the commogations I would like to receive. These are the things that would help me. I'd like you to understand what I'm going through and ask them are these accommodations acceptable? And if they're not, could they take it away to HOC? And, you know, if you can't feel comfortable having that with your boss, see if there's an HR leader you feel comfortable having. And if neither of those feel comfortable, because in many companies they don't, is there a female person you can trust and that you would, you know, that have more senior than you or equal that you feel comfortable at least starting to have a conversation to practice with to get comfortable? Right. Do that first. And then move to your boss.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

I love that. And then if I'm the boss, what am I doing for the first time when I'm sitting there and I'm like, whoa. And especially if I'm the male boss and I'm like, what? I don't even I don't know what to say. I don't know what the right thing is. Like, what is some of the guidance you offer there?

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Yeah. So I have a whole hour course on that. Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. So, first is be educated, right? Like half your employee base is gonna go through this. So it's it is part of your job. You don't have to be a doctor, you don't have to be a clinician and any, you don't know need to know everything, but you need to understand the core of what it is and what's going to happen, because you owe that to your team, right? So, and and it's super helpful for your personal life as well. So one is it's okay to say, like, I don't know, right? Like, yeah, I haven't had the training, let me take this away. But, you know, like any other business meeting, like empathy, listening skills, and keeping it neutral. Like, again, like don't make a joke that that's really true. Um, take it seriously, listen, empathetic. And then, like anything else, similar to if you were gonna have a conversation, if someone came and said, I am now pregnant, or my wife is pregnant, I would like to put in for a formal leave, right? You would go back and find out what the rules are around that and come back. And so, same thing. You you take this to your HR lead and you say, What do we have? Do we have most of the time you're gonna find you have nothing. There is no, which right now most companies do not have a policy in place. And so it's great because that will start a conversation to help the company. And then obviously I would say call me, right? So call 100%. Call call somebody to bring in that education, eat employees, employers as well, right? Managers, leaders. It's really important that they know how to have this conversation because they can get themselves into trouble if they don't have the right conversation.

SPEAKER_02 46:51

Yeah, very much so. And I think that bringing yourself in and is that a company like yours does keep it neutral. It does, it it helps neutralize the conversation. It makes everybody in the room, puts everybody in the room on the same level in terms of like people may have a varied degree of knowledge, but you get to be that, you know, like I was teaching puberty. You get to be the person so there's like no one that has to look like they have all the answers. The questions can be asked. If they're uncomfortable, they can then, you know, ask you sidebar afterwards or email you, or you know, it just you can take sort of that initial uncomfortableness out of it, which I think is so valuable, especially in the workplace. Um, sorry, let me just ask the one. Yeah, no, please, please.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Also, as an employee, like I would demand the education, right? Like as a employee, I would go to your HR and say, you know, what do we have? Why have we done no education on this? Or if we've had one talk, it's not enough. Like, what more are we big doing? Like, who else are we bringing in? What other plans are we putting in place? What policy are we adding? What, you know, you as an employee have a lot of say and a lot, you know, obviously some people don't feel comfortable rocking the boat per se. Right. So you get a few females together, right? Or you do you approach a male ally who you think is support. I mean, I've worked with many HR leads that are unbelievable on this topic that are male. Like it doesn't have right.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

No, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

And so I would say, like, make sure you're advocating, advocating for yourself to HR, that this is something you want to hear more about.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

Yeah. And I think you can do that at any age as well, right? If you're a 30-year-old listening to this, like you can still add your 100% guarantee is that you're gonna get to that stage in life. So at any stage, start questioning your company and asking them to support the women in your organization, no matter what side of the fence you sit on or what age and stage you are, you know, to your point earlier, like that this is we know it's gonna happen. So the earlier the better. Yeah. At the end of the day, I have a question for you. Have you seen? So I'm kind of flipping it from the positive side of things. It's like, so if I go to work and I've told people, have you had feedback or have you experienced where now you're just blanketed with that must be because you're in menopause? Or now it's this conversation of like whether it's the employee or the employer or the manager, where it's just like, oh, that's your menopause. Like, are you seeing that at all? Are you hearing any of that where all of a sudden, you know, you you you out yourself to a certain degree, and you're like, oh my gosh. And now am I apologizing all the time? Like, are we now like where are we in terms of like, so now we've opened it, but now what do we deal with with people, humans, dealing with the uncomfortableness of it all?

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Yeah, of course, right? Like, of course, there's gonna be, is it gonna impact my job? Is it gonna impact my promotion? Is it gonna, you know, my similar to how, as you said, used to keep your pregnancy hidden. I I think that happens a lot less because it's there's equal Matt and Pat Lee both. It's just like, I don't think as much, because I I wouldn't say it's gone that you know you get hired or you don't get a promotion because of it. But if we don't fight through this, we'll never break it. So I just I yes, it's there, but I really encourage people to push through it, right? To say, this is happening. I'm still incredibly productive. I want to come to work, and and that's what people miss is that we don't want to feel bad. We don't want to feel sick, we don't want to not sleep. We want to come and give to a company the best we can give. And at that stage, that's what we can do. So give me a little help. Yeah, I might need to come in an hour later because I haven't slept all night. And once a week, I might need to work from home different than you know, everyone else. I'm gonna give you so much more, right? And I'm gonna stay and I'm gonna be a loyal and productive. And I'm not taking sick leave because I've gotten, you know, my bed, I'm utilizing my benefits. You gave me an extra day off to go get the hormones I needed.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

And that is so small in comparison to what we want to give and are able to give. So I really try to just plow through it almost in that yes, it's not easy. Yes, we are trying to break something that's been there for a long time, but I'm unapologetic about it now. Like this is what we are, this is what's going to happen. Let's start supporting so you get the best from us.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

Right. Because it's actually more common than the common cold.

unknown 51:55

Like, right?

SPEAKER_02 51:56

100% of the population doesn't always get the the, you know, 100% of the 51% doesn't always get a common cold. Like this is this is real, and we deserve the care and we deserve to live really good fucking lives. Because couldn't agree more. Why should we not? But we've allowed ourselves up to up until now. What does perfect world scenario look to you, Amy, in terms of how the workplace in the world treats all of us ladies?

SPEAKER_01 52:27

Well, I mean, I that could take a long time, but yes. Yes, that's what I meant. That's what I meant in the menopause side of the world. So I would say that your employee has employer has a menopause policy, like a formal policy, um, where they incorporate a lot of the things they currently have for other health issues or transition, not even health, like just transitional periods. So a proper policy in place, proper defined accommodations that they offer, um, a proper benefit defined benefit plan, lots of education, resources on their website, um, taboo has been broken. As I said, humor has gone away. Um a uh support group or lunch and learn type program is ongoing. Um and not, I mean, I often say my two busiest months are March and October. Not often they are, because it's International Women's Day and Menopause Month. And I'm like, menopause doesn't only come to work two months a year. So nope, you know, it's gotta be every month, ongoing. And and really, I would say it's what your employee base needs. So ask, right? There should be a questionnaire part of what you do every year on other topics that includes what do you need from the from your employer for menopause? And so, and and that does really differ, right? So, like a nurse or someone working on a factory floor that's wearing a polyester uniform, right, with a mask and a head covering is gonna have a very different need and accommodation than a woman working in an office, right? Like there are different, so it's it's really important for your employee base to have a voice in this conversation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:18

And to be thinking about that, right? Like it's again, you just didn't paint us all with one brush with that statement. It was like every different workplace has different needs for what we need to be doing when we're we're in that circumstance. And I think, you know, one of the things that my past guest Simon said was when he said, you know, believe, you know, he said, sit, listen, and believe. And I just think it's you have to believe those of our all of our symptoms may be similar, but they also we may have nuance to how we're feeling. And, you know, I think we all need to be open to listening to what those differences may be and treat us as individuals, not just as a group of women going through menopause and that we're all grouped into this like lump sum of people. It's like there are core principles to what we're going through, but we're also individual. And, you know, our socioeconomic, our home, all of our life situations are gonna be unique. And so while there's some general practice that needs to be put in place, there also needs to be some nuance to being treated like a human and an individual. 100%. Yeah. Well, I know that there's gonna be everyone on this uh who's gonna be listening to our conversation who's gonna be like, oh my gosh, how do I get Amy in front of my employer? How do I learn more? So how can people get a hold of you, Amy?

SPEAKER_01 55:36

So the best way is to go to my website, so menovee.ca, or feel free to email me personally, so amy at menovate.ca. And um, yeah, there's forms there. Send me a direct email, uh, reach out to me on LinkedIn. Um, I'd love to talk to you.

SPEAKER_02 55:53

Yeah, you sure would. And I and I appreciate that, Amy. And we'll link everything in the show notes. And I would just like to say that you spell your name, Amy, the way that I always wanted to spell my name when I was a kid. I got really bored with my three letters. And so every once in a while I would like switch it up and write it the uh the way that you spell your name. So um, Amy, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for taking your personal experience and advocating on behalf of the rest of us. It is so important, and the work that you're doing is life changing work for so many, myself included. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

Thank you so much for having me. I look forward to talking to you again and uh to hearing from your your uh listeners. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.