Uambi Reserve with Dr Kaori Yokochi

What happens when we make the night brighter?

In this episode of Finding Melbourne's Nature, we head to Uambi Reserve in Heathmont with wildlife ecologist Dr Kaori Yokochi from Deakin University to explore the hidden world of microbats, darkness and urban ecology.

Kaori explains why darkness is just as important to ecosystems as daylight, how artificial light is affecting wildlife across Melbourne, and why something as simple as closing your curtains or changing the lights around your home can make a real difference.

Along the way we talk about microbats, dark corridors, citizen science, growing up in rural Japan, and why cities still have the potential to be incredible places for wildlife.

I loved every minute of this experience. Kaori has an incredible gift for explaining complex ideas with warmth and clarity, and I learnt something every time she spoke.

Recorded on Trust for Nature's beautiful Uambi Reserve in Heathmont.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'd like to acknowledge the Wandru Warong people as the traditional owners of the land where this recording was made. Over the past few months, I've been walking through reserves around Melbourne, NAM, and recording conversations along the way. I've met with traditional owners and First Nations peoples, conservationists, ecologists, and others who've chosen a place that matters to them. We walk and talk about nature, what lives there, what's changed, and what needs protected. You'll hear our footsteps, the wind in the trees, the birds overhead, and the city not too far away. This is finding Melbourne's nature. If you head east of Melbourne, somewhere between the city and the Daninong Ranges, you'll find a beautiful little suburb called Heathmond. And in Heathmond, there are a lot of houses, but there's a beautiful little bushland reserve. And that reserve is about four hectares in size, it's owned by Trust Nature, and it's called Yuan. It's a beautiful example of the vegetation that used to occur in the area, and it serves as a really important remnant in that landscape. We're joined by the amazing Dr. Kari Okoshi, who's an urban and wildlife ecologist, and she's gonna teach us all about bats and the importance of darkness habitat corridors. We're gonna learn all about the importance of the night and what role it plays in the ecosystems around us. Hope you enjoy this one. I know I really enjoyed recording it. Do you mind starting off and introducing yourself?

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Hi, so I'm Dr. Kaoyo Kochi. I'm a wildlife ecologist and lecturer at Deakin University based at uh Bowwood in Melbourne. Um, but yeah, I know in terms of research, I normally kind of focus on urban ecology side of thing, kind of trying to figure out you know, minimising our impacts on wildlife and so that we can kind of coexist in cities with amazing wildlife and yeah, finding a way so that more people can also interact or you know, come across wildlife guests, uh come to value them, I guess, more. Yeah, become more familiar with them too.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Do you have any fond memories of spaces that you've connected much with around Greater Melbourne?

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Oh heaps of places, I guess. But um, I'm originally from Japan and I was lucky to grow up in the rural Pana area of Japan, but still, you know, Melbourne is a big city, but I'm really always kind of impressed, inspired, and also very grateful that Melbourne has such you know amazing areas of parks and you know in urban areas like reserves like this one that we're in. Yeah, and yeah, it's actually within close reach for a lot of people, most people who live in the city, and so yeah, I think there are a lot of places that have been around Melbourne and just love going. So some of them, like in the city centre, you know, even Royal Botanic Garden, oh yeah, in right in the middle of the city, you know, such a big area, like it's like an oasis. Right, and visits um yeah, it's it's great to have that kind of you know big area that actually most of the time closes to public at night, which I think is a great thing personally for some parks, you know, not all of them, but some parks because that also provides uh kind of refuge for wildlife that might be living in urban areas. And yeah, I used to live close to places like Blackburn Lake, so it's such a beautiful area to just go, you know, walk around. Um yeah, during the lockdown we were lucky that it was within the five kilometres. So with my son who was, you know, with my son who was still very young then, um, we used to go for a walk and just walk around and yeah, just enjoy, I guess, being in nature.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Absolutely. Yeah, and you've worked a lot on this concept of light and dark and the importance of those factors for wildlife. Can you explain that to us a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Yeah, so I've been working um on kind of impacts of light pollution on wildlife, especially microbats or small insectivosbats that live around us in cities. And not accidentally, but stumbled onto this. I didn't really go in thinking you know, I'm gonna study micro bats and do you know light pollution, but I was talking with community groups and oh beautiful!

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Stink horn here, so yeah, that's all.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Um yeah, and they were looking for someone who can um study micro bats, um, do kind of basic surveys and figure out what species they are. So I just put my hand up and saying I can try. And that's kind of how I got into it. But then I knew about light pollution, but I learned a bit more about it and then started to think, okay, so this you know amazing group of animals, microbats that are living with us in cities in in everyone's backyard, you know. If you live in Australia, and then you know, if you've got any backyards, you will have microbats flying around. Oh, look at that! So many animals that are there was just another lizard. Um, but yeah, so I started thinking about them, and then but you know, we do put out a lot of lights, you know, for safety or whatever the reason, and we quite often don't think about how impactful they are because every single organism that live on earth has evolved with the pattern of the light, right? Like the daylight, and then comes night. And it's such a predictive, I guess, and you know, reliable uh pattern so that most of these organisms evolve to actually use it as a cue for their biological processes, you know, it might be you know reproduction, uh, you know, migration, whatever it is. So actually by putting light, we are disrupting that you know predictable patterns of light, and that can have you know massive impact on a lot of different areas for you know many different taxa. So if you actually think about it, light pollution is actually a big, big issue, and we tend to you know notice it because humans are diurnal species and we prefer or we need light to actually see things and you know go about you know doing stuff. So yeah, the more I have been learning about it, the more I'm realizing it is actually a big big issue that we're not actually doing enough. And the great thing, I guess, in a way, about it is that there are actually a lot of things that we can do even individually. So yeah, that's kind of where I'm researching at the moment and see different types of light. Um because there have been some studies, many studies I should say, done on more of a this stationary, you know, uh lights like street lights. Yeah, you know, that's always in the same spot, it's always on at night time. Uh so a few, you know, many studies, for example, on micro bats are showing that you know um few, I guess a group within the micro bats. There are groups or guilds that we tend to call them that are quite sensitive to I guess habitat um destruction and also open areas or lit areas. Yeah, and those are you know those tend to be kind of slower flying species, but they're more specialized in like acrobatic flying patterns, so they prefer to stay in kind of closed, you know, areas, bush areas like this one that we're walking in. So if you set up advantage, you'll probably you know uh record some of these um clutter adaptive species, but those are the ones that um have been found to be most impacted by the areas because they really don't like I guess coming into the areas because there is this you know greater risk of predation because microbats are predators of flying insects, but they are also prey or you know, um owls or cats, so they tend to I guess avoid the areas. That means they have fewer you know um habitat that's available for them. They might have to take longer route to get to somewhere, and that longer route might not be, you know, uh the safer, safest options. So just putting a light somewhere might actually have pretty big consequences for some groups of animals, including those flatter adapted species.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

So would they change how high or low they can fly? Like, is there certain elements of their behavior that they will change accordingly?

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Yeah, um yeah, so previous studies have found that um for microbats anyways, and those species that are impacted more impacted by lights, I should say, because all species are impacted by lights, but they are more sensitive to lights. Um they really tend to try to stick to unlit areas.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

So what they will probably do is A, whether they you know they might not just come out of their roost if there's a light near the you know, roost entrance, exit wherever they are roosting, or they might actually take you know different route to get to their foraging site, and or um yeah, they just reduce their activity in those lit areas. In terms of the height that um you know the usual height that bats fly depends, well micro bats I should say, depends on the kind of guild or species as well. So what we call open adapted species, like um white-striped retail bats tend to fly higher, or they can fly higher uh above canopy, but these um clutter adapted species, um like little forest bats, I guess, and they tend to kind of be lower or within this, you know, clutter like this, like exactly where we're walking. Um yeah, so you know, well, within the um, I guess vegetated bush area.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

And how many species of microbats could there be in a place like this in Heathmont on this?

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Yeah, here. Whoa, I wouldn't be surprised if there were because it's got a really nice, you know, clutter or like a real thick bush as well as a bit of an open area. I wouldn't be surprised if there are like 10. Really? Or 11 different species here? Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

That's huge.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

It is, you know. In the greater Melbourne region, you know, there've been 16 or 17 different species that's been reported, just what microbite species. So there are a lot of them and they're uh not everywhere, but you know, they are around us. We just don't know much about them.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Are they less prone to extinction, uh local extinctions and things because of the areas that they utilize, or is it are they very habitat dependent and we're losing a lot of habitat? What's the plight of microbats?

SPEAKER_02 12:05

It depends on the species, because when we say microbats, you know, they are how many? Well the bats themselves, there are about 80 species in Australia. Yeah, of course. You know, we can't just say one thing about all microbat species, but they are you know species that are more uh threatened than others, just like any other groups of animals, I guess. Yeah. And for example, in Victoria, the um the name is really um I guess deceiving, but what used to be called common bentwing bat are now critically endangered in Victoria, not common at all. Um and you know, some then these are you know cave-dwelling uh species, they need you know caves and um I guess abandoned mineshafts and all that to actually roost. So that kind of I guess specialise specialization I guess does make them a bit more vulnerable and susceptible to habitat loss, urbanization, all that stuff as well. And one thing that uh any bat ecologist in Australia is worrying is that um white-nose syndrome, that um fungus that is wreaking havoc in other parts of the world in terms of um bat populations. Uh there are pathogens that kind of can spread throughout micro bats and they can actually kill you know whole population or um large amount of bats very quickly. But you never know when it comes because it can be carried by humans and like we don't get sick, but you know, we can carry spores and things, all right. You know, boots or whatever it is, and bring it into Australia as well. So yeah, there's a bit of a biosecurity, I guess. Risk for bats as well.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

What's the bat community like? Are they a tight-knit group of people? Yeah, awesome.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

That's one thing I found out once I kind of you know jumped into this realm as well. Everyone I have met so far is so supportive and so like keen to work with each other and help each other, and we obviously all love bats, right? So I don't know if that makes us quirky or a bit different, but I find that bat community to be really I don't know, close-knit, but you know, very welcoming.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Do you have a bat species you're particularly fond of?

SPEAKER_02 14:35

Whoa, I don't know. I find them all interesting, including you know, things like grey-headed flying foxes, the um bigger bats. Yes. Yeah, well I I love it when I can hear white striped retail bat because that's the only you know species that we can humans can just hear the echolocation calls. Yes, but it's so high-pitched, you know, full of human ears. Um as you age, you will be, you know, you kind of lose the ability to actually hear them. Wow. Some kind of dreading the day I can no longer hear the calls.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Your last bat call sort of thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

So that would be how I kind of gauge how good my hearing is happening.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

And what sort of tools do you use to identify bats and um understand bat populations?

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Yeah, so in our research what we have been using is mostly acoustic. So because they echolocate, um, even though it's in ultrasonic range and humans can't hear it, it makes it really kind of not easy but handy, I guess, um for us to actually be able to kind of snoop or listen to who's around, um, you know, what kind of species is around and how active they are in the area. So I use uh what we call bat detectors, which is really um ultrasonic recorders that you can leave in place, so it's all passive. Um so what we will do is we will set up these bat detectors or ultrasonic recorders, set it to just record, you know, at night time, and yeah, leave it in the place for like two, three weeks, um, and then come back, look at the recording, and from the different I guess, um, patterns or characteristics of the call, we can tell most of the species apart. Not all of them, but most of them apart. So that's how we have been kind of studying what species is present in which area. For example, if you put in light, would that change, you know, what species are around and how active they are? Um yeah, recently I had an honor student, um Sarah, who just finished her thesis. Um, so we were looking at, you know, for example, our light festival.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

That might impact, you know, um the I guess species diversity and activity level of different bat species. So yeah, the acoustic is really a great way to go because it's obviously is not as invasive as you know, trapping, for example. Yep. Cup trapping. Um we you know we don't get that real detailed information about bats, like we can't tell you know individuals apart or anything like that, but we still get a pretty good I guess information about what bats are doing, where they are, and that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

So if at this site in Heathmont where we are we put a bat detector out and we find some incredibly rare species of microbats. Yeah. And we're all excited. What can we do to make sure that it stays in the landscape? Or is there other actions we can take to Yeah?

SPEAKER_02 17:57

So those rare species of fish, especially in urban areas, tend to be those clutter adaptive species that I talked about, and particular um, for example, the you know, I'm doing the quotation mark with my hands, common or eastern bent-wing bats. Um they you know prefer to stay in cluttered areas, they're light sensitive. So first thing I will recommend is make sure you know all the shrubs, trees, you know, all those things are in place, and you know, obviously keep area beautiful like this, you know, nice clutter or what we call clutter but vegetations from um understory, mid-story to um yeah, the taller trees, and also don't put in light, please is what I'm gonna say, because even if you do all these restoration work and the re-vegetation work that you know a lot of people in a lot of organizations do, as soon as you put lights in, you might actually be doing, you know, or undoing, I should say, all that effort for some species.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

So if you put lights out and you're seeing more moths, yeah, it's not a good thing that you're seeing more things, you might be affecting other things. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Yeah, and you know, some people think because there are some species who can take advantage of or who can forage in late areas, um, and then people tend to see them more under light because a human can see better under light. Also, there are more, you know, um flying insects under light quite often. Um but that is not necessarily a good thing because if you think about it, you are drawing all those, you know, insects to under light, so that A has impact on the insect population um itself, but also that means that bats will have to forage in the area because the insect is kind of it's called vacuum effect, yeah. But um, insects are kind of drawn in from you know other um habitat where it's not lit, so the number of insects in that unlit area might actually be lower. And we are causing that by just putting the light in. And like I say, lit area, predators actually benefit from lit areas. So predators like cats, for example, um, in terms of our microbats. So microbats might come into lit areas, especially you know, kind of open adapted species, but that also carries higher risk of predation for them as well. So it's not necessarily a good thing, it might be acting as what we call um ecological trap, I guess. Yeah, so you know it looks he draws in animals for some you know reason to certain areas, but that certain area might actually carry a higher risk or I guess uh harming or impacting that particular animal or species, then that's what we call kind of ecological trap. And you know, in the long term, overall he actually has negative consequences.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

This is gonna be a stupid question. But I'm full of them, you probably um they may have all been stupid questions, sorry. But um so is it the darkness itself or is it the darkness plus the habitat? Like, do we need in the same way we have habitat corridors, do we need darkness corridors?

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Yeah, absolutely. I think so. I think we need to start thinking like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

So if like sections of let's say in a in in a great world, the people of Heathmond here all decided they're going to turn off their lights at 10 o'clock, would that be of benefit to wildlife even if the habitat wasn't directly there?

SPEAKER_02 21:49

I mean the habitat being there is you know really important to start with, so that they can actually forage and you know do whatever they need to do. But then on top of that, if we can consider where you know to really yeah that dark corridor so you know um strategically really um think okay how can we make sure there is a you know nice connected habitat which is dark for wildlife throughout their uh urban areas because like I said I don't think it's practical and I don't think you know it's good to actually turn off all the lights at 10 pm it's just not practical but we can think of it like you know um certain areas we will make sure for example along the river because it you know normally is such an important habitat within urban areas we're not going to put light because that is such a valuable habitat and you know we want to keep it dark so that wildlife can actually use it.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

So I don't know if this is jumping a step but let's say we've got this reserve here that's surrounded by suburbia. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

If we wrote to those people and said hey can you just turn your lights off because it might increase the um opportunities for biodiversity or health of the ecosystem that would be an actual absolutely I think so and for those residents there actually isn't that doesn't mean they have to turn off all the lights it actually might just mean closing the curtain. Right? Because as long as the light is not getting out to you know their garden or into the reserve yes that is all we need. So you can definitely use lights inside the house. Maybe warmer light because it's better for humans as well and you know darker warmer lights at night time to help us sleep too. But close the curtains and quite often that's all you need to do especially if you don't have any lights outside. And it's actually you know like I said there's actually a lot we can do individually.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Oh when or have you always had it as a concept in your head?

SPEAKER_02 23:50

I kind of knew about it but I probably got started getting into it maybe pre-COVID I think. Yeah right um started really getting into it so you know I knew the um this concept and I knew that it would have impact on wildlife but then I probably started researching it yeah just around you know 2018 2019 and it started really the research started with bats and you know I'm getting kind of really fully into it the more you know you learn the more you kind of yeah um see that there's you know huge impacts but there's also a lot we can do and a lot I can you know talk to other people and spread the word yeah like this and and is there a there's a community of people who advocate for the dark is there yeah yeah there are um so the probably the biggest or the most um uh what do you call it um yeah I guess the biggest one I guess and very very active one is ADSA so um Australasian Dark Sky Association and they do amazing things it's not just ecologists but you know light pollution doesn't just impact wildlife it impacts humans so human health so there are actually some medical practitioners and medical researchers who are part of this uh association also you know people any people who do astronomy they need dark skies right and also there's a big cultural impact as well especially in Australia for like indigenous people yeah because sky is you know part of their country and part of their uh you know dream time story and so by not being able to see stars you know they might be losing part of their cultural you know history and other important learnings and yeah stories that intertwine with it so yeah there's so many different I guess aspects that's impacted by light pollution and great thing about ABSA I guess is that all those people kind of come together and then and also just people who like to look at the star right starts and they all come together and try to you know figure out what to do and there was this awesome symposium um earlier was it earlier this year last year that brought you know all sorts of different um professionals um researchers um practitioners together in Melbourne for two or three days and all we did was talk about how we can um conserve I guess dark skies and there were people like you know light designers urban designers talking about it as well people from advertising companies because you know they're lit up illuminated um ads and so on as well and so it was really really great and they do a lot of public seminars and things like that too.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Are there different voltages or types of lights that can be used that lessen the effects or is it generally just a light and dark sort of thing?

SPEAKER_02 26:56

But they are less impactful right I guess so it it's not everything all well one thing is for sure the darker the better. Yeah. Right so less brightness I guess is a main thing. Well first of all no light is the best and then darker is better. But even then the colour so for example or colour or spectrum I guess and so redder or warmer colour tends to be less impactful but it's not you know for every single species either. So in general we say a warmer redder colour is better. So that's why I was saying you know in your home you know you might not want to have red light in your house but warmer colour you know those orangey warmer you know nice nice colour is better and darker ones so yeah um for example if you are capable maybe you know put in the dimming dimmer switch in one of your like lounge room um lights uh and then at night time dim it so that it's not as bright and then just close the blind or close the curtain and that will go a long way. Yeah also obviously not shining towards like an upwards because what we want to minimize is that light that's going up. So actually lighting up the surface that we need to see right because light we can only see light when it hits the surface so there's no point putting the light upwards because it's not hitting the surface it's not doing anything to us but it's doing a lot of damage to wildlife and everything. So you know shine it down just the surface that you need to see at the lowest you know level possible in warmer colour and turn it off when you're not using it. So you know things like sensors motion sensor you know if it's outside you know in your porch or you know um yeah definitely don't just have them on all the time.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Saves your energy as well. Yeah that's cheap up what you do.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Um I guess working in urban ecology you must come across lots of different aspects of what's out there and what's in greater Melbourne and so forth. Yeah. Do you foresee Melbourne as and Greater Melbourne as having lots of good opportunities for species to continue to live alongside us or do you see there have been great threats? What are your I know it's a broad question.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Yeah no no it's a good question. There are a lot of threats but the thing is I think people are including us researchers learning more and more about these threats and also learning or coming up with solutions and you know um re uh public as well in general I think well I feel a bit more aware as well um so you know with the help with you know things like social media or all these kind of kind of community engagement and stuff there are quite a few citizen science projects for example all of those help with you know raising awareness and quite often there are a lot of things that public can do and I think I feel like people in Melbourne are kind of yeah coming together or you know jumping on that um I guess we're going to actually do better or minimize the impacts that we have on wildlife. And another big thing is obviously you know it's people as well the general public but also government regulation and things like that are massive as well. So there are lots of petitions for example ADSA actually ran a petition um to Parliament actually um collecting you know the signatures to call for proper regulations of light pollution because we don't have it in Australia um but other countries like France they have it they have you know that having that regulation proper regulation actually made a massive difference for example in France so ADSA and you know called for this petition and I think it ended up being like 12,000 or more people signing it and yeah so you know once you learn about it I think um it's a lot of people most people want to do the right thing or you know wanna don't want to be impacting wildlife and you know people love seeing all the sorts of different birds you know sorts of different things living with us in cities so I am hopeful I think we have big issues that we are you know trying to um yeah work uh with and try to find solutions for but I do you know see amazing people meet amazing people as well who are doing amazing work and also you know very keen to be involved in things so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

What are your thoughts if you're living in Greater Melbourne and you want to do something you're feeling a bit helpless maybe you're feeling a bit overwhelmed by looking over looking after conservation issues in general any thoughts of some steps that people could do?

SPEAKER_02 32:04

Yeah well I guess one thing would be to there are a few different things obviously you can do so joining you know local groups like friends of you know quite often your local park reserves you will have friends of group and they'll be doing amazing work like you know weeding or you know planting um for that particular reserve joining them is awesome a because you are taking action but also you will meet kind of like minded people you can chat about you know all these things and nerd out which is awesome for your awesome for your mental health as well and you know that action really helps you mentally as well I think taking that action you know feeling like you're actually doing something actively you know not just hearing about it and being worried about it but actually taking a step even if it's a small step means a lot and so friends group or you know like Trust One nature you know there are a lot of organizations who are doing amazing work as well so maybe support them and go out and you know find all these amazing reserves around Melbourne um learn about all these issues I guess because once you learn the issues you will probably learn some of the solutions as well as uh like you know light pollutions there are a lot we can do individually as well so maybe start turning the light off and you know start closing the curtains and blinds I annoy my husband every single night I was like we're gonna close those blinds he's like we're gonna open it in the morning again but I was like no we're closing those blinds so it's hit home like it's actually yeah yeah yeah and we've got dimmer switch as well in the lounge room and we you know picked the warmest colour possible um for you know any outdoor but also inside um so uh yeah there are a lot we can do and also one great thing everyone can do is talk about this and you know talk to people because I really think most people are not doing you know things because they want to impact wildlife or anything like that. It's most cases that they are just not aware I guess the impacts that they might be having by just having those you know porch lights on. And so just talking to people and kind of you know maybe suggest hey maybe this could be you know something that we can do and kind of work with them and yeah raise awareness. I think it goes a long way.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

And I figure this light pollution thing there's probably so much to it that we don't understand. Like lots of aspects of ecology but like that concept that this might be having effects on things that we don't realize for another 10 years or something else like that that has impacts so there's probably multiple benefits in doing things.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

Yeah for sure and you know like I say it's human uh health impacts as well so uh on that front as well um researchers are finding out more and more about the impacts of these lights on humans and you know different types of lights it's not just light as well quite often you know especially in urban areas there's noise as well so noise impacts or um yeah noise pollution is another thing that we tend not to think about as well how impactful they might be especially those um that we can't hear so I'm really interested in um looking into ultrasonic noise as well because yeah because now I started looking into bats and like this this ultrasonic range that humans can't hear but you obviously other animals a lot of other animals can hear and especially micro bats they rely on being able to actually hear their own echolocation calls right because that's how they navigate yeah and being able to almost see where they're going and catch these you know insects that they need to eat if that space is filled with noise what is happening to those micro bats so that's why like I haven't you know come across came up with any stuff blows my mind going down because us humans we're humans right so we see what we can see we hear what we can hear but we tend not to think about other I guess parts of you know visual spectrum or noise you know um range frequencies but birds and you know animals um bats you know amphibians they all see and hear in different ways and if you start thinking about it there's so much we don't know yeah it's it's fascinating but also there's a lot to be done I think yeah oh and it's when you get into those intricate relationships where you're like there's an orchid there's a pollinator there's a fungi and you're like oh my god there's things that we didn't realize you know what fungi is actually doing for the trees and yeah it's just such a big thing um what what attracted you to urban ecology what what brought you to that space? I don't know it's just something that we a lot of people have around because you know on earth most people live in urban areas right and then traditionally I think until like 30 40 years ago um there weren't much happening in urban areas because people just assumed this habitat is you know no good and kind of gone these are just for humans but we are more and more kind of realizing and discovering I guess um that a lot of species a lot of wildlife actually live with us in urban areas and if we are you know kind of design and also I guess if we are mindful in terms of how we use our areas or you know how we develop urban areas then we can actually coexist with this you know amazing array of wildlife plants you know fungi whatever it is um and they are you know some of these species that still live in urban areas they are some amazing fascinating resilient species as well so it's I think it's just that fascination that realization but also thinking that this is where a lot of people vast majority of people on earth will grow up so for them to be able to find that connection with nature would be really really critical I think um for you know future generations if we want people to actually care about nature because you have to learn about it first right you have to learn to appreciate it first. And I lived in Tokyo for a year and that sucked for me anyway a lot of people like Tokyo because it's a big city a lot to do but I mean even thinking about it now all the species that I've come across is like you know crows, sparrows and um cockroaches rats there weren't much going on but I was lucky like I said to grow up in rural areas so growing up I had a lot of you know experience in running around in bush and doing a lot of things being muddy and everything.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

So you had that ride since a kid you really grew up with that?

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Yeah I loved I loved animals and I just loved running around and you know covered in mud I will show up to school covered in mud because we will all walk to schools as well especially in rural areas in Japan from you know grade one and there were lots of like rice parties and you know kind of bush areas around me heaps of frogs and you know tadpoles and all sorts of cool invertebrates I'll be in there catching those things that was I was pretty well known I think in the area as this kind of wild kid in a rice party getting muddy. But yeah I'm I grew up like that luckily so I think I think I naturally kind of learned to appreciate it and I enjoyed you know being in nature and that kind of stuff but if you just you know grow up in city uh like place like Tokyo or middle of Tokyo where you don't come across any of those and even the parks are so manicured and you know you only see certain number of you know bird species and stuff like that then I don't think you will really develop that appreciation appreciation you know um kind of you wouldn't learn to really value the nature so I think it's really important to have this kind of you know reserve where people can come and just sit like we're doing now and just you know be immersed and enjoy exploring. So yeah urban ecology in that sense I think is important because then by you know um encouraging that coexistence of humans but also nature will mean that there will be more nature you know that humans can experience and learn to um can appreciate more so when you were this little mud kid yep mud kiddy kid um running around the bush and everything can um did your path towards this seem clear like not really I don't know I I was just enjoying being muddy so but I can definitely you know looking back now I can definitely see how it happened I guess so I was always interested in animals I always loved any kind of animals so you know peples um you know snakes will come across snakes sometimes and I'll just observe it or you know these little bugs and in summer there are a lot of cicadas in Japan uh and you know how they have shells when they come out um there are heaps heaps of them and I used to collect them my mum didn't appreciate you know my box is full of this cicada shells just sitting there um once I think brother my brother and I uh and cousins released some cicadas inside the house which they did not appreciate but anyway so you know all of these things I think you know I always loved animals. A great thing was my mum was also interested in environmental issues and stuff. So and they she knew that I was interested in wildlife right so she I guess when I was like late primary school um early high school she started taking me to all these kind of public seminars about you know this um yeah wildlife issues and stuff like the ones that I'm doing now I guess used to take me there and you know I'll listen and kind of start to realize that it's not all great you know like things are happening to wildlife and some wildlife is you know kind of disappearing so that's kind of when I started a bit more seriously I guess thinking about it wasn't really like you know I want to be wildlife wildlife ecologist but it was more purely like I want to learn more about this and you know by doing that maybe I can find a way I can you know help or contribute to these you know issues so kind of that's where I guess yeah um it started and so your mum would have got to see that come to fruition? Yeah she sure did this yeah when I was in high school um like late high school when you when we were thinking about what to do after high school you know it's what was expected what's expected in Japan is you just going to one of the universities and just do a degree and then go into workforce but I was like I'm not I'm I'm I'm admant I'm gonna I want to learn about you know this wildlife conservation thing. So I was looking for universities in Japan I couldn't find it so uh me being stubborn I guess I was like nah I'm I'm just not well just going elsewhere then kind of thing so I actually yeah decided To study abroad, and I was really lucky that my parents were kind of open to that idea. They knew I was stubborn as well.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

You mentioned your mum.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

Has there been some other people who've been really influential in your conservation career?

SPEAKER_02 44:16

Yeah, well, when I started the you know researching bats as well, uh people like you know, Dr. Lindy Lumsen. Amazing. Yeah, she's amazing. So people like that. It's like, oh, that's so amazing. She knows so much about bats, but she's like one of the nicest people you ever meet.

SPEAKER_03 44:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

And yeah, like you constantly kind of meet those people, right? So that's definitely one of the big reasons why I'm still here kind of doing this. And I really enjoy, you know, working in this area, I think.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

Can I ask while we're sitting here, we're looking out on a bush scene, we're sitting on a nice little bench.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

Um you've got a lens that I don't have, and that most people don't have, right? And you can see something that I can't see. And it's an amazing skill that you have. You you can in fact you can see a million things that I can't see because you're very across so much stuff. But um when you look out across this vista that we can see here, if you put your microbat lens on, yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you seeing anything that could be habitat or that's important um for microbats in general?

SPEAKER_02 45:23

All sorts.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:25

I just love this amount of undergrowth or you know, the understory that we have in this reserve. So, yes, we have this walking path, but that's about it, right? Everywhere else we've got these, you know, amazing understory happening, and that's so important to for you know insect diversity as well, which definitely obviously helps microbats too, but also you know, all these trees, um, mid-story, you know, that um big trees as well that creates this nice cover, also big trees with these barks, you know, just that hung in barks. Micro bats could be just roosting in there as well, species, because they can just find these little nooks, and there's some you know great big trees here that will probably have a little hollows, uh, and those are great, amazing for microbats too. And I don't see lights, which I love. You know, yes, they are houses by nearly quite far away, and yeah, it's it's really really nice habitat to have in you know, like right in Heathmont, right next to train station, pretty much.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

That's fair.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

Yeah, and the shop stands stuff, but yeah, it's this would be a really nice kind of oasis or um I guess refugio for these microbats that's living around here.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Could we be pretty close to one right now without knowing?

SPEAKER_02 46:43

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I reckon we will be. Yeah, somewhere in this tree box. There might be some sleeping on there. Wow. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Well, thank you for illuminating. Or I don't know what the opposite of illuminating is if we're talking about dark.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

No, illuminating is good and we we love light puns. Dark side of the issue within you for shining the light on things. It's great. It's full of those.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Thank you for helping me understand this so much more, and you're an amazing communicator and you've got so much knowledge, and I'm so excited that you're teaching a whole generation of people through your work.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

Yeah, I love that side of my work as well. Uh teaching yeah, the next generation of yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Are you seeing some exciting prospects come through and people who've got yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:33

Well, I I get inspired by my students as well, how passionate they're how knowledgeable they are as well. Some students, man, they know so much about, for example, birds. You know, we all one thing I talk to my first-year students in my class is that we're all here to nerd out, don't be afraid to, you know, then talk about your stuff passionately because maybe you know, coming through high school you might not been able to do it, but here is the place to do it and everyone will appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

So it's a safe place for you.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Yeah, exactly. The place to be anyway. Um, so you know, their amazing amount of um knowledge and passion and also this, I guess, um desire to learn. And I kind of definitely understand up because that's exactly what I had, you know, when I was coming to Australia and you know, picking what to do after high school and things. And it's so exciting for them to be kind of learning from us, but also learning from each other, and then building that really close, I guess, connection and network with each other. And then, you know, in graduates, you know, we see that still going and they're you know, um kind of inspiring each other, helping each other, supporting each other. So yeah, it's I I love that part of my work as well.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

The incredible Dr. Carrie Koshi, I learned so much during that session. I encourage you to check her out online and read some of her publications. Really, really fascinating stuff. She also does some presentations. If you get a chance to see her in public, I'd go along and listen to one of her talks. If you want to check her out on Gardening Australia, she did a recent episode, and if you really want, you could become one of her students at Deacon, which would be absolutely an amazing experience. Finally, if you want to hear more of these episodes, check out Finding Melbourne's Nature.com or check us out on your favourite streaming services, and please send us a review or tell us how you're feeling about the series, because I love hearing what you think. Thank you so much.