Season 1 Episode 6 Ted Barett, One knee catching

This week I dive into catcher umpire relationships with former MLB umpire Ted Barrett.  The argument against one knee catching and a little constructive criticism for a few of the Toronto Blue Jays

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This is Walk Off Slams with Greg Zolan on AM 1150.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Well, the Jays aren't off to the start that everybody was hoping for. They were gifted a couple of games by Oakland in the opening series, ended up sweeping that one. We know what happened with Colorado. We know exactly what happened with the Chicago White Sox. And we know what happened with the Dodgers for sure. Look, I'm not going to jump off the bandwagon. I'm not going to pile on just yet. But I did say that people needed to be concerned about what they were seeing with the Jays. I'm going to say this. The Jays are a good team on paper. They really are. I believe in their measure as a ball club, but I think the fans really need to know what it is that they're looking at. They had an enormous amount of depth in the starting rotation. It's gone. All of it's gone. In fact, they're going out signing retreads to fill in spots in the rotation. It's not good. Kirky's down, had thumb surgery. He out. Barger proving my point about the fitness level of Major League Baseball players. He's legging out a ball in the infield and rolls an ankle or something. Why? Because they don't run enough. These guys don't practice running enough, and they hurt themselves when they're sniffing base hits. Or they've got to stop and start and change directions. Wow. Athletes stopping, starting, jumping, twisting, changing directions, they don't run enough. I'm sorry. They just don't do it. Again, I said the Jays needed to be concerned, or the fans needed to be concerned. And honestly, I don't want to hear that it's early. They just went through the cheapest, easiest stretch of any major league schedule on the planet, and they went four and five in their first nine games. Should have been two and seven if it wasn't for how bad Oakland is fundamentally. The A's gave them, like I said, the first two games of the season. The Jays did not beat them the same way they did not, you know, beat the Dodgers in the World Series. The Dodgers would have had to have given it to them in order for the Jays to win. They were the best that the American League had to send to the Fall Classic, but they weren't good enough. Now, it's easy. I get it. It's easy for people to think, hey, everything's okay. We just won the pennant. Um if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I understand. And apparently a lot of the players, you know, rightfully so, digging themselves to the point where they made zero improvements and zero adjustments to their games in the offseason. Well, teams adjust. Can you the words out? I'm I'm here to tell you, you don't need to throw the Blue Jay strikes. Um, these guys are a bunch of undisciplined hackers, um, and hackers get hot and they get cold. You're gonna ride that roller coaster, and you know what? Riding that roller coaster, it was Arctically cold early on. I mean, literally everybody ice cold to start the season. Now, is it the players' fault that they didn't make any adjustments? Uh, that they didn't make any improvements to their game? You know what? Yeah, I think it's I think a lot of it's their fault because as a player, you need to completely be evolving your entire life. You have to change, you have to try to improve. But a lot of these guys, nobody's gonna say anything to them because they just won the pennant. Um but you know what? Unless you're blind, you know, and I'm speaking for you know front office type people, it's pretty easy to see that all of these hitters are exactly the same guy. One guy has a little more pop, the other guy has a little bit more, you know, barrel to ball skills, but none of them will take a walk. They won't pass the baton. They literally go up there and they look like a bunch of selfish, I-me, gonna get my swing off type of guys. And and I know that's not true, okay? So before anybody loses their mind and says, oh, there goes Zon hating on the Jays, I'm not hating on the Jays. I'm hating on their approach, I'm hating on their will unwillingness to identify weaknesses in their game. I'm hating on the fact that you don't make any adjustments. That's what I'm hating on. Okay? The whole lineup minus Vladdy, they're the same guy. Again, unwilling to pass the baton. Now, I'm an outsider. I'm not privy to what's going on in that clubhouse. I don't know who's a good guy. I don't know who's a selfish D-bag. I mean, they're they're in every clubhouse. I don't care how happy you think you are. When you're in the clubhouse with all those dudes, you know who the good dudes are. Typically, they run them out of here if they run them out of there if they're bad dudes. But as an outsider looking in, if I'm playing against the Blue Jays and I'm watching the at-bats of Toronto Blue Jays players, especially the ones with no track record whatsoever. I'm talking about guys with less than 2,2,500 ABs. I'm watching guys go up there and hack. Hack, hack, hack. Okay, well, there's two, there's two rules of thumb. How do we get out of a slump? Well, you swing your way out of it. All right, cool. Are you a guy that has a track record that we want to allow to swing out of it? Or do we need you to be more disciplined? Do we need you to see more pitches? Do we need you to work the ball up the middle the other way, move runners, have a more team approach to your at-bats? Or are you a guy who's got 3,000 at-bats in the big leagues, multiple seasons of hitting 25 plus, driving in 100, who just happens to be, you know, low tiding it right now? Are we gonna are we gonna be okay with you just hacking your way out of it? Well, yeah, if you've got a track record, do what you do, even if it looks selfish, because you've already proven yourself as a baseball player. But when you're not a guy with a big track record and a long resume to point to, having a ton of success and having worked in and out of big league slumps, um, you need to grind. Here's a prime example of what I'm talking about with no patience whatsoever. One for 17 to start the season with the bases loaded. How do you do that? How do you go one for 17 to start a season with bases loaded? I don't know. Um there's nowhere to put you. Uh so get something in the middle of the zone and drive it. But typically, what happens with the bases loaded is guys are thinking grand slam. Well, I hit a couple of them in my career, a couple of walk-offs. That's why the show's called walk-off slams. Um, and every single time I did it, I was trying to hit a sacrifice fly to center field. So let's get into it. All right. Now, again, because I know what's gonna happen. Guys are gonna get their you know, undies in a bundle when I start picking on their players. These guys, I like this team. I like these players, okay? But if I'm coaching them, I'm gonna coach them. If I'm gonna criticize them, I'm gonna criticize them. So we're gonna talk about the specific guys who I think probably should have made an adjustment over the offseason or maybe should have, you know, try something new. All right. Ernie Clement, first guy. All right, likely a good dude. Seems like an affable guy. You know, you can look across the room and see a guy that's kind of a sour puss or whatever. Well, I'm guessing Ernie's not that guy. But I can tell you right now, his at-bats look about as selfish as they can possibly get. Um, he doesn't have an approach. This guy's looking to get it over with quickly. And, you know, I I really wanted to back up these claims and these arguments with statistics, and you go look at Ernie Clement over the course of his career, 3.46 pitches per plate appearance, significantly lower than the league average. Typically, the league hovers around four per at bat. Well, obviously, this you know reflects his tendency to try to get it in play early. Okay. Um, I'm okay with you going up there and being a hack attack if you're doing damage, but he isn't doing any damage. Um and if before you guys start squawking about how many hits he got in the in the postseason last year, uh, I remember him going 0 for 2 with a chance to win the World Series. And I remember the one in this in game six, probably one of the worst at-bats in a clutch situation ever. He swung at a ball that might have might have hit him because he had no plan other than I'm swinging. I'm gonna swing in case I hit it. Um he's a great defender. I love this guy's glove. Uh I wish he could have more productive, team-oriented at bats. Um, he's aggressive, but he's not productive. You know, I've got an old run production formula that I like to call ZARP. Um point seven five or better, you're a good player. One or more, uh, you're a star. Ernie's less than 0.7. He doesn't produce runs. Um, you know, so typically when a guy doesn't have a lot of power, you look for him to get on base, create havoc with his legs, score a lot of runs. He doesn't do that either. Now I'm wondering, has anybody spoken to him about his approach? Um, because I'm okay with him hacking. I want guys who can do damage, extra base damage. I want them swinging a bat. Either that or walking. So when you swing, do some damage or take a walk. But he won't take a walk. He won't take the obvious walk. And what I mean by obvious walk is he when a pitcher's really wild or they're trying to pitch around him, he's gonna put one of the first two or three pitches in play and get it over with. His OBP is basically his batting average over the course of his career. So uh not good in my opinion. Uh he needs to either do some damage or start having some more productive team A Bs. Varsho. Good lord. 295 career OBP. Love what he did in the offseason, moving his hands a little bit, but I watched him at bat that proved to me he has no plan. He swings at a first pitch curveball, hitting in front of Vladdy, grounds weakly out to second base against Yamamoto. How are you swinging at the first pitch and not smashing something when Vladdy Jr. is sitting behind you? Now Vladdy's got to take the first pitch of his at bat, and he's the one guy that they're afraid of. But you just take the bat out of his hands by not having a plan. They're afraid of him, not you. You're gonna get a good pitch at some point. Barger before he got hurt, I'm watching him. They're game planning for this guy now. He drove in a ton of runs last year. He's gonna get game planned against, and he's gonna get game planned against when he comes back. Springer, we've got to get him going. Now he does it a little unorthodox. He's a swinger. He's a swinging machine and a strikeout waiting to happen. But 399 OBP last year, he was the spark. This guy is the reason why the Jays had such a good offense. On base a ton, 32 jacks, 84 ribies. He's a little unorthodox for a leadoff guy, but he was getting it done. This guy needs to get it going. Now we get to the pitching side of it. So I claim that Hoffman needs to throw more fastballs. What does he do in the offseason? He doubles down on the nonsense. He wants to trick people when he's got 97 in the tank. So now he's throwing split and splitter or split finger or fox, whatever. 39 to 66% of the time. It's a feel pitch. It's actually the toughest pitch to feel. It's between your fingers. Um he used to throw a ton of sliders. He's still throwing 30% sliders basically. So between the splitter and the slider, he's throwing about 70% off speed. 25% for seam fastball. He throws 97 to 100. Let's go figure it out, dude. Instead of doubling down on the nonsense, throw the fastball and get better fastball command. Stop trying to trick everybody. All right. You know, little before he got sent out. This is a guy who had it all wrong. His pitch profiles are all wrong. Sinker goes with slider. Four-seamer goes with knuckle curve. He throws 45% sinkers, and they're 93 to 95. Okay, that's fine if you're facing nothing but righties, you got the ball sinking away from him. But he should be getting lefties out. He's probably going to face, in an ideal world, two of three lefties. That ball's running back into their power. He doesn't throw a slider at all. He's got 5%, 3%, whatever you want to call it, slider, cutter. It's the same pitch. It's 90 miles an hour. The one pitch he doesn't throw ever the four-seam fastball away from a lefty. He throws 96 to 97, too from the left side. Got it all wrong. Why are we not fixing the pitch combos and the profiles here? It makes absolutely no sense. Okay. Absolutely no sense that these guys are continuing to do the same things. People on the outside, people in the know, uh, they got to look at what it is. We're not reinventing the wheel here. I know they're trying to reinvent the wheel with this one-knee catching thing, but a sinker still goes with a slider, a 12-seamer, a 12-6 still goes with the four-seamer. It is what it is. We still have human eyes, we still see the ball the way we see it, and guys need to make an adjustment. All right. What are the odds that they're all going to get hot at the same time, again, a second year in a row, the way they did last year? Got to see more team-oriented at bats and make sure that we are willing to pass the baton. And I think once we get going there, uh you'll see the Jays take off. Until then, ride the roller coaster, Jays Trans, because that's what you're going to get. And when I come back, I've got a special guest. We're going to talk big league catching, umpire relationships. We're going to talk ABS. When I come back on Walk Off Slams, we're going to have Ted Barrett.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

You're listening to Walk Off Slams with Greg Zon on AM 1150.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Welcome back to the program. I am really excited for this week's guest. Um, he has a degree in kinesiology, he has a master's in biblical studies, he was a major league umpire for 20 plus years. Let me throw in amateur boxer who sparred with the likes of Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield. Uh, and for good measure, I'm wondering uh, or I should say this, he's the only guest in the history of walk-off slams to eject me from a major league game. He is the faithful fighter, the spiritual warrior, Dr. Ted Barrett. Fascinating story. Welcome to the program, Ted.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Hey, Greg, so good to be here with you. Yeah, thank you. I guess that's quite a distinction that uh the only guest that throw you out.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

That's right. Yes, you are the only one that I've had on so far that's ejected me from a major league ballgame. And I always get a kick out of it, especially when you and I communicate on on Facebook and whatnot. I always get a kick out of that day in Houston. You know, the the rocket was pitching and he was uh lights out that day, and I didn't like the uh the strike three call, and I went in and took it out on the uh the bat the the bat rack and you got me from home plate because I was causing too much of a ruckus. I think the game probably stopped because I was crying about the call so bad. So um, yeah, you're the only one ever got me that's been on walk-off slams, and uh, and I'm uh really, really happy to have you here because you know I've been you know kind of the opponent of the new one-knee style catching. And you know, you and I come from an era of catcher and umpire relationships that I like I don't even know if that exists anymore. Um, you know, the thing that I the thing that I wanted to to talk with you about um first is you know personally like your your story, we'll get to the we'll get to the catching in the in the umpire stuff. Uh, you know, in my research looking looking into you, I I don't I don't see anything about baseball. You played basketball, you you fought, uh you're you're uh clearly um huge into your faith, your Christian faith, and and I'm wondering at what point did you fall in love with baseball enough to become an umpire?

SPEAKER_02 16:32

Yeah, that's that's kind of interesting the way that uh the the path came around, but uh getting back to the ejection real quick, you know, it's like I had a lot of ejections in the big league, and and that was one I really kind of felt bad about because uh you know, you didn't like the strike three call, and you let me know that, but you were really kind of just taking out some frustration on uh on your gear and uh and the bench, I think, with the bad. And I kind of should have just let you bench, because that's the way you are, right? You would get it off your chest, come back, and then everything's fine. Um, but on that day, I think uh I don't know, I was being a little sensitive and and uh it's funny because I think I I came back and I cussed at you. Well you never do that. And I've never I don't think I've cussed on the field in a long, long time, and I did that, and I think someone got on you for cussing at me, and you're like, hmm, he cussed at me.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Oh yeah, no, I got I got chirped on social media. They're like, Ted's a man of Christ, he's a he's a minister. I can't believe you would use foul language in his presence. And I'm like, he was cussing at me, and nobody, nobody that was in your corner, all your fans on social media. Well, it was just Facebook back then, but like nobody wanted to believe that that Ted Barrett used profan profanity in my presence. And I thought, okay, yeah, I must but I have that effect on people. I make people cuss that never cuss. That's what I do to people. I get them really riled up. And um it it is my personality. And but yeah, you're right. I do I do, I blow up, I vent, um, and then I come back and everything's fine. I mean, you're doing your job, I'm doing mine. And and I come from an era, you know, and this is one of those things where, you know, I I was disappointed when they when they got rid of the National League and the American League umpires separate. You know, I liked it better when it was like that because you know, everybody had their own interpretation of the strike zone, especially when the Braves were pitching. And I could game plan for that. I knew who was a highball umpire, who was a low ball umpire, who who leaned towards hitters. And we knew Mike Riley hated the Yankees, especially in Yankee Stadium. And so, you know, we we could game plan for all this stuff. So I mean we had scouting reports as thick on you guys as we did on players. And so that was easy for me to do. And and and, you know, let's be honest. I'm I'm facing Roger Clemens that day. He's a Hall of Famer, probably the top three right-handed pitchers in the history of the game. And you know what? He deserved the benefit of the doubt on the edges of the strike zone. And that's the way I was hoping that it would end up for me as a guy who blocked balls for you guys when nobody was on base, who tried to give you guys a good look, who tried to be as friendly as I could with you within, you know, being respectful, etc. Uh and then they and then they went and they changed it up where you know they brought in Questech, and whoa, they really screwed me up. I didn't get any sort of, I don't know, not for lack of a better term, preferential treatment on the edges. I'm I'm facing guys in the big leagues that are there for a week and they're getting you know a ball or two off the corner. And and I always like I always enjoyed working with guys like you who get I could have a conversation with about that. And that you know, that goes into uh the relationship parts that that we'll get into. But I'm dying to know, like you're a big guy. You know, if you nobody knows you, you're tall guy, big guy. Um basketball, boxing, like where'd you get into baseball?

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Yeah, so my the sport I liked the best growing up was football. Um and uh so that's what I I pursued. You know, I played, I did play baseball in high school. Um I had actually started umpiring little league, 14 years old. I grew up in North Hanawana, New York, just outside of Buffalo, almost Canada, for your Canadian uh listeners, um right there on the border. But uh moved to California when I was in high school, and uh my dad always said you don't have to have a job as long as you're playing a sport. So I played every sport I could because I didn't want to work. Uh but I got into and I got into college, I played football at uh Cal State Hayward, a small division two school, and he was finally like, hey, you're killing me with the gas, and I'm helping you with the car and insurance. He's like, You gotta get a job. And I thought, man, what can I do to make money? My buddy was working at fast food, he's like, you don't want to do this. So I had umpired a little bit of baseball in Little League. Um so I went down to a local high school association and I said, Can I actually umpire high school games? And I started, this is the 80s, I was making $57 a game, I was doing three, four games a week. Uh this was good money for me. My dad was happy, I was happy. Um, and I liked it because even though I didn't play as much baseball, uh, I always love the sport of baseball. When I was uh 14, my dad uh invited me to play in this league of Stratomatic Baseball with him and his buddies, which was great because I'm 14, I'm hanging out with the with the guys, and and they're drinking beer and playing this game, and I really started to follow the players, the averages. Um, the Sunday paper, you know, remember when we were kids, we wake up, look at the Sunday paper, and it had the batting averages and the ERAs, and in Buffalo, we didn't have a big league team, but I had my players that were, you know, for people that don't know, I guess it would be the forerunner of fantasy baseball. Uh, but you roll dice and you have strategy in front, you hit Run. I just loved the strategy of the game. In 1979, the Pirates were down three games to one to the Orioles, and they came back and won the World Series, and I thought it was the most exciting thing I'd seen in sports. And so I fell in love with baseball. Um and even though I was playing football, uh I would get on uh the bar train and go watch the A's games. My brother and I would go over and watch the Giants games. Um and I started to follow the umpires. And so when I was umpiring high school, I was working with a couple of guys that were in the minor leagues, and they said, You should really try this. I think you could actually do this professionally. And so I set off for the uh Joe Brinkman Umpire School in 1989 in Coco, Florida. And uh I was boxing at that point, and I thought it would just be a nice little five-week break in Florida instead of getting punched in the face. Um and then I got selected and uh, you know, head headed out to uh spring training in Arizona and Northwest League. Uh and then um just kept progressing from there. So that's kind of where it started. So not really a playing background, but definitely a love for the game, you know, uh the romance of the game and all the things that um we love about it, uh I fell in love with. And then you get into the into the game and you find out, well, this is a job, you kind of lose the the romance of it. But there was so many nights, you know, Zonny. Just we stood out there on, you know, a Midwest summer night in uh, you know, standing out there on the bases with a nice breeze and warm weather, and you're just like, I can't believe I get to do this for a living. Yeah. Uh this is really cool. And then the other times, you know, triple A, the four o'clock white out of Calgary to connect to get into Tucson and land at three and have a six o'clock game, and you're like, uh, maybe I should have done something else for a living, but but most of the time the good outweighs the bad.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Yeah, I agree. I mean, triple A travel was the the worst, I thought. I love riding the buses overnight. But uh before I I gotta I gotta ask you, you know, because I you you and I talk, I I I love boxing too, and I you know I I've had you know one amateur fight, I just love the fitness part of it. Who hits harder? Holyfield or or Tyson? Gotta know.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

Yeah, well Tyson hit harder. Holefield was just becoming, he's just moving up to heavyweight when I when I had him. But the the hardest I ever hit was been his. It was uh by big George Foreman. And um you know, I tell people that uh my son was born two years later uh with a headache because it's so hard. Um, but you know, he he wasn't very fast, but he was faster than I was. So uh yeah, I was um uh you know, a big I was a big guy that could take a punch, so I was in demand as a sparring partner. And um yeah, you know, it was it was fun to be in there with those guys. Um but that's another thing. Sometimes I would stand out on a field, you'd working home plate and saying, this is a heck of a lot better than getting punched by a heavyweight.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

I'll bet. No, I I had a couple not quite your level of heavyweight, but I I know what you're talking about. All right, so now we got to get into the baseball stuff, man. I I just you know I came from a different era of catching. We sat still, we didn't turn around on you guys, we tried to give you a good look, we didn't move the ball. Now all of a sudden, around 2016, uh they start putting a bunch of guys in the game who really are not good defenders, they can hit. They put them on one knee, they got them flapping the ball all over the strike zone, they got them moving it on you guys, which I remember I would have had my my head pinched by you know Joe Brinkman, uh by a bunch of veteran umpires. If I tried to move the ball, they would have lost their you know what on me, and I would have never got another pitch. Like when all this starts happening, when they start moving the ball, when they start turning around to talk to you guys in the middle of the game after a call, um the balls in the dirt are getting by, you guys are getting hit a lot a lot more often. What does this do for you as an umpire and how does it change the relationships between you and the catcher, the guy that you're working closely with every night?

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Yeah, you hit on it earlier. Um, when we were just in the American League and the National League and separated, um, you know, we would have you so often. Uh, we'd have catchers. If you remember, you know, we might have a a series between Toronto and Baltimore in Toronto, and then uh ten days later, it's the same two teams uh in Baltimore, but with different umpires. Uh I mean uh the same crew.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

So what I'm saying is, yeah, you would see us so often, we had to work together. We had we had to get along. Um, we had to do our best to get along. And guys like you took pride in the fact that nothing's gonna hit, you know, you get back there and catch and you're like, okay, I don't have to worry about this. He's gonna block everything, whether anybody's on base or not, just because you had the pride of I'm blocking this ball and uh and nothing's getting to you. And then on the the the occasion where you know maybe a foul tip or foul ball smokes me, and uh there's nothing you could do about it, but you're grabbing me going, You okay, you okay, man, you okay, choking or you know, suck it up, or that that type of thing, but it's just in in a fun way, right? Or you know, tell me, I'll touch the meeting harder than that, things guys would say. Um but there was also, you know, it was a mutual respect. You block one, take one in the cup. Um, you know, I'm walking out to talk to the pitcher, uh, giving you a breather, giving you a second. Um, and those those things started to erode a little bit. Even though I remember I was working, I'm not gonna throw the catcher under the bus, but I got drilled in his knee and he never got a glove on it. And stuff happens, right? People get crossed up, but there was no remorse. I mean, it was like I'm back there hobbling, and uh it wasn't like, hey, are you okay or sorry? It was just like he's just looking at me like, all right, come on, let's go. And I was like, you know, uh started getting angry with him, and the manager came out and said, Why are you mad at him? I'm sorry, you didn't even get his glove on it. He said, Well, you know, he didn't do it on purpose. I said, I realize that, but um, you know, show some concern back here. Uh things just started to things that you would never think would happen between a catcher and an umpire started happening. And so I want to get to the moving of the glove because this is such a I think the public doesn't understand um the framing aspect of it that people talk about framing and so when you caught, like you said, not only would Joe Brinkman rip your head off or John Shulok or you know, name any of the guys, but it was a ball. So if you took a pitch outside and you yanked it back into the zone, I called it a ball. Why? Because you're telling me you thought it was outside. Right? So um what you did though is you took pitches that were maybe off the edge and and you you know, I like to use the term quiet. You know, you got back there, you were really quiet. And you reach out and catch the ball, maybe get your get your glove around it. Um low pitches, uh the good catchers would stick them. Um, you know, the the the guys that would kind of drive it into the ground, they would lose pitches. And you know, before the electronic monitoring, the guy sitting in the dugouts, they couldn't tell in and out, but you could tell up and down. Yeah. And if a if a catcher just boxed one and drove it to the ground and I called it a strike, the dugout's not gonna be they're gonna be up letting me know that that's not a strike. And if you took a pitch, which would happen rarely, you know, a guy like you, bottom of the zone, and and you didn't catch it clean, and you kind of dropped it down, and I called it a ball, you didn't argue that it was a strike. You knew it was a strike, but you just say, uh, it's my bad. That's on me. Yeah. Right? And you threw it back and you move on. But it got to a point where guys started jerking pitches. And at this point, you mentioned Quest Tech, which came in, I think, in 2001, and then we started to get graded on that. Um but we all still as umpires, especially the older guys, because a catcher's jerking his glove around, we would ball the pitch. And I remember telling catchers, like, I'm not gonna call that. And then and and they would I said, Don't do that. And they said, Well, I have to. I remember pulling managers aside, uh, Stephen Vogue, who's managing the the Indians now. Um he's a good catcher, a good guy. And I remember him like lowering his head and and yanking the ball down on a high pitch like in spring training, and I balled it. He's like, Where was that? And I said, I don't I don't know, I think it was high because you're jerking it down. And Bob Melvin was the manager of the A's, and I said, Bob, that's um and he was a catcher. I said, That's gonna be really tough. That's tough for us to call. He said, Well, this is this is the what direction we're going, and this is what we want to do. And I was like, Okay, but uh it's really and I don't want to sit there and tell them well I'm gonna ball it. Um, but I did let him know that's awful hard for me to call that a strike. Uh and then it kind of evolved to some of the younger umpires, um, I think the scores were starting to get put out on social media, and so they were saying, We're gonna score really high. So what happened was they started just ignoring what the catcher does and tried to call the pitch whether it was in the zone or not, because they knew the electronic guy was watching them and grading them. So some of us older guys were just we weren't worried about that. We were balling the pitches that they pushed away. And the league at one point would if the catcher uh they called the catcher influence, even though it was a strike, they wouldn't count it against our score. Um, but then they started to take that away. And so people that that think, you know, go back year, two years, three years ago, pre-ABS, people start to rank these catchers like he's plus whatever because he frames and gets these pitches. And I always thought, are they keeping track of how many pitches they're losing? Uh you know, I always said you can't you can't turn a ball into a strike, but you can turn a strike into a ball.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Thousand percent. I know a bunch of catchers that could not could not keep the ball at the bottom of the zone in the zone. And they they yeah, I mean, there were guys who, you know, that I played with, I'm not throwing anybody under the bus, it just, you know, there are guys that cared more about ball control than making it look good. And I and I know I I fucked I I fucked up uh probably four or five pass balls a year because uh I was trying to be a technician, I was trying to make everything look good for you guys. I wanted uh, hell, we all got dinner reservations. We're trying to get out of here in two and a half hours, you know? I'm not trying to sit here and and call 200 pictures a night. Like I if I can make it look good on the edges and nobody knows I'm working, then you know I you know and I know, and maybe the hitter might know. But that was as long as we weren't having to cover a ball off the inside corner, we can cover a ball off the outside corner, no big deal. If I caught it good and I'm and I had 60% of my mit in a strike zone, nobody said a word. You know? But now you talk about the ABS system, uh Ted, I'm wondering like why, and I'm gonna talk about this uh a lot coming up here. It's like why are why are the kids still jerking the ball all over the strike zone when they've got ABS? You can't fool the machine, you're not tricking umpires. And I'm and I really want to know, like, do you guys do you guys look back at when this was going on and say to yourself, hey guys, you're not tricking me at all. I'm just gonna call what what I think is a strike a strike and a ball a ball. Um but this ABS system, it's almost gonna make what they've been doing for the last 10 years obsolete. You don't need to move it, you don't need to be on one knee, let's control the baseball. And then, you know, I guess my final question in uh in a roundabout way is uh like I think you and I agree when when I say uh let's give the umpires an opportunity to fix an obvious mistake. Like we know that that we missed it, uh I know you missed it, you know you missed it, uh, and I'd be like, all right, well, shit, it happened. And you know, it is what it is, but can we can we uh can we live with the system the way it is, or do you do you see a way going forward where everybody's gonna love it, it's gonna become a part of the game that's gonna be here to stay? Like it can you see are there improvements, uh a way to fix this to so that everybody loves it?

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Well, I think uh it's gonna be hard to draw that line, right? You hear people talk about maybe a buffer zone of uh, you know, people I I read on social media people say an inch, a half inch, but you know, at some point it's gonna be um you know, a line has to be drawn. Um and so I think right now uh baseball is saying we're gonna we're gonna make it um the 17-inch plate. And if it's catches any part of it, it's a strike. If it doesn't, it's a ball. And it's gonna be really hard to kind of alter that into, you know, say they do a one-inch buffer zone, anything within one inch of the strike zone, it's then the call is not overturned. But then if it's one what if it's 1.01, um, you don't overturn it. So uh that's gonna be that's gonna be difficult to kind of find a line of demarcation that everybody's happy with.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

Um the thing that I fear is uh you know, just walks going up. Um baseball definitely wanted more balls in play and and more action and more offense um for the fans. Uh but more walks, I don't think, is what the what the fans are wanting. Uh maybe more base runners make more um plays and more excitement, but I I I don't know how it's gonna play out. We'll have to see throughout the course of a season um how how many walks go up. I just don't see any way to kind of draw any other line of demarcation um other than what they're doing. Uh but there there could possibly be tweaks where they expand the strike zone. Um, you know, maybe they widen it. Um who knows? That would take a change in the rules, which would change would take uh, you know, the player union agreeing to it. And um so but there's certain that that possibility of that happening. Um but to your point too, as far as the catcher framing and moving the ball around, yeah, they really don't have to anymore, right? Other than if they think they they think the challenge system um maybe they can get a hitter to burn a challenge. You know, my thing is I'm waiting for the catcher that to intentionally butcher a ball that he knows is a strike, that'll look so bad that the hitter challenges it and the call uh stands and they lose their challenges right away. Now they don't have any challenges as the game goes on. There's all kind of gamesmanship that could happen.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Well, uh I'm watching some guys who already should have their ability to challenge revoked. Like the whole ball is in the strike zone. The whole ball, not just the edge of the ball, the whole ball. And I think some of these kids have a delusional Frank Thomas-like uh opinion of what the strike zone should look like. I used to ask Frank what color the sky was in his world because he he would come back and look at balls in the that were dead center in the zone, and you guys would have rung him up and he'd be like, Okay. And I'm like, dude, come on. Welcome to everybody else's world. You've got to hit it strike. Uh that's gonna be a work in progress, Ted. I know this, and I and I and I know as we go along further with the program, I'm gonna have more questions for you. So I hope you you'll you'll come back and talk to us uh more about this. I know uh with your work with Major League Baseball, um, we kind of have to be you know careful with the the way we talk about it. I I'm certainly careful because I I'm a fan. I I believe uh that like I said before, there should be a way to to uh overturn an obvious mistake. Like we I brain cramp, umpires brain cramp. Um and I think if the uh if the umpire I I I would like it if the umpires had the ability to basically overturn themselves. They'd be like, oh, you know what? I I completely missed that one timeout. Let me check this real quick. Let me check this real quick. That might happen once, twice a game versus what we're seeing now.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

Yeah, I mean, I can see that. But the problem is, you know, as an umpire, I can tell you that when you make a call, um you're you're relatively certain you got it right. Uh and so a lot of times it's not it's not until after that you go, okay. But you know, there's times there's things in the sun, you you know, you're just battling the sun. Um, you know, as it sets in the early starting times, or you know, something you sneeze. I don't know if something happens, but uh very rarely will you call a pitch and then just go, oh crap, man, I really uh I can see it happening. Maybe you call a breaking ball too quick. Or I've had this happen where, you know, I give up on a ball. Uh I remember the first time I worked, um, David Cohn um is in Toronto and he's pitching for the Royals, and Rich Garcia said, Hey, don't give up on this guy. He throws a backdoor slider, and I'm thinking, yeah, yeah, Rich, I have I saw this in AAA. I didn't say that. But and then I got back there and and the pitch comes in and I saw side ball and then wham! Broke over the plate. And uh I I forget who it was. I think it was uh Pat uh uh catcher for the the borders. Um but he said uh first time you have him, kid. I go, yeah. He said you stay with it. Um so something like that where you can you can say okay, hey, let's let's uh let's take a look at this and do a redo. Um but it's also you know, there's all kind of things that uh that uh could happen. I will say this though, if I can defend the umpires for a second. I think they're gonna keep getting better with this ABS system because the guys coming up had it in triple A, but the guys my age, you know, the guys I came in with that are still working, you know, Bill Miller, Las Diaz, Brian O'Nora, um, you know, this is all new to them. And if you think about it, they had a little bit of it, a little taste of it in spring training last year. They had four or five games in spring training this year. Now they're into one, two, three, four games. You know, some guys start off on break. Um, they're gonna have to get repetitions on this. And let's take a guy like Aaron Judge. He sees thousands and thousands and thousands of pitches, he's got the the trip the traject, the technology that you can uh go in and see pitches. Umpires don't have that. And so what you've got is if if I'm Aaron Judge, all I have to do is learn my strike zone. I he's gotten really good at at pitches coming in, he knows if that's a strike or a ball on him.

SPEAKER_03 41:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

But now the umpire, he's gotta know what's a ball and strike on him, he's gotta know what's a ball and strike on Altuve, he's gotta know what's a ball and strike in and uh, you know, like when you played, like you said, with it's just uh, you know, America and nationally, you had to know 30 different strike zones. And you charted it and you studied it. Um and now they've got to know 76 strike zones because they're 76 Pigley guys. The umpires, they've got to know 750 strike zones. And but they're that good that I think they're gonna keep getting better and better and better um at knowing the different zones and the different players. And um it's I think by the end of the year it's gonna be interesting how it shapes out, and then we'll look next year and the year after on how they keep getting better and better. I I really think, especially the young guys are that good that uh you're I think overturns are gonna be at the minimum after a while.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

Well, I look forward to that day, and uh I look forward to talking to you again about this as we see it play out. Uh thanks for coming on, Ted. I really appreciate this. It's nice to get uh an umpire's perspective on something that you know I've been bitching and moaning about for the last three weeks in a row. And I'll definitely reach out and get you back on because uh I think you you we're gonna see some growth by a lot of people, by the hitters, by the umpires, by the game itself. And you know, maybe this is a better idea than originally thought.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

I'll say this, yeah, the the crowd the fans love it. Yeah, oh yeah, they do. It's kind of like it's a new toy now, but it's exciting. Uh even as I go to these triple A games, um, they're they're enjoying it when a challenge comes. They get excited and they look at the board and they cheer or they boo. And uh listen, when the when the fans when the fans are liking what's going on, uh that's a lot better for all of us. Yeah. And man, Greg, so good talking to you and catching up with you. Uh always one of my favorite uh favorite favorite players. And uh again, man, I'm sorry if I when I ejected you, if I uh cussed out you uh it only cost me 500 bucks.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

No big deal.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

I owe you dinner.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

It's all good, man. I'll take you up on that little talk boxing and and you know, ABS system. But uh again, thanks for being here and uh we'll we'll talk again soon for sure.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

All right, thank you, brother. God bless.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

All right, coming up after the break, your favorite segment and mine this Sunday road. In my opinion, the catching position today is a total embarrassment and it's not being taught right. The 1D experiment has ruined the catching position. If it was actually better, I'd stay still because it still wants to work harder than they need to at first. Speed on 1D is a nice rate, but it deprives catchers of necessary strength and explosiveness when they need it most because their legs are in favor. If they can't catch it properly, if they can't block it effectively, they can't throw anybody out anymore, and it's Are being injured at an alarming rate. The stats don't lie. Pass balls are up, wild pitches are up because they can't block it if it doesn't block itself. They're throwing more breaking balls than ever, and yet they're still on one knee. Why do they insist these guys be on one knee when it limits their ability to move laterally? They claim that these guys are stealing more strikes, yet back to the Google machine I go and find out less strikes are being called since 2016, totally disproving their theory. Catchers aren't stealing anything. They aren't fooling anyone, including me. Every base is one quarter of a run, and every base matters. Every pass ball, every block you don't make, every time someone steals a base, it matters. The average catcher used to throw out 30% of would-be base stealers, but since the advent of the one knee style, it's dropped to less than 20%. The real reason guys are on one knee is because there was a shortage of good catching and even fewer guys that could teach it properly. So they added a bunch of guys who could hit but couldn't defend to their lineups. The problem was they couldn't squat and they can't throw. So they put them on one knee and they said, drive in more than you let in. That's simply not possible given the sheer volume of pitches they impact each and every game. Four at bats versus 200 pitches per night, something's got to give. How much sense does it make to take a guy who sucks at defense and put him in the most important defensive position on the field? You put Manny Ramirez in the left. You don't give him the ball club and say, run it for me on the field. Now let's get to the game calling. At least two teams are calling pitches for their catchers from the dugout, further proving my point that Major League Baseball is lowering the level of excellence so everyone can compete, even the pitching coaches. A catcher isn't even asked to think anymore. They'd rather hire somebody who's never done it before and let them steer the ship. Let's see how that works out for them. My last point about the new style, thumb injuries. They're increasing at an alarming rate because of bad hand positioning and bad technique. Given the severity of Alejandro Kirk's thumb injury, I feel like I've got to say it. It could have been avoided. How you ask? Well, if he wasn't trying to move a cock shot and would have been funneling or simply absorbing the ball right down the middle, as I was taught, instead of punching at it, his thumb would still be intact. Example. Two cars collide head on. One moving 100 miles per hour, the other stationary. The impact is 100 miles an hour. Now, two cars, one traveling 100, the other going 50. And the impact is what? 150. You get my point. The foul tip that led to his thumb being broken and dislocated happened on a pitch right down the middle. He was pushing at the ball unnecessarily, or as they like to say, working through it. It didn't need to be moved, nor do any of them now that ABS is here. You can't fool the machine, so why are catchers still on one knee trying to move everything? They don't catch it, block it, or throw it any better on one knee, and they're not fooling anybody. So shouldn't the position get back to catching the ball and controlling it? Shouldn't they get back to controlling the running game or are major league baseball teams afraid to admit that they made a mistake with the one knee experiment? They still haven't admitted they made a mistake by going all in on analytics. It's Sunday. Can you smell that roast?