Season 1 Epsisode 9 Josh Towers

Jays update.  Varland in as closer.  Josh Towers talks modern day pitching.  Instant Replay - Roast

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is Walk Off Clams with Greg Zone on AM 1150.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Well, thanks for looking up for the Blue Jays. They are playing better baseball winning series after series, which is good. Unfortunately, when you only win two out of three, you only gain a game on that 500 mark. So you got to play three to gain one spot. But it's better than the alternative. Good news for the Blue Jays, they are starting to get healthy, and it's kind of convenient that they're starting to play better ball. Guys are getting a little bit of wind in their sails. I mean, let's be honest. When you start the season the way the Jays did, you know, right out of the gate, Cody Ponce gets injured and he's going to miss the entire season. Who knows whether he'll be the same when he comes back with the new knee? Uh you know, just one thing after another with the Blue Jays to start the year. But as I've said in the previous shows, they just needed to tread water and they've done that. Now they're getting their uh guys back, Springers back. As I said, Yesavage. Looks like Barrios is gonna be coming off the DL soon. Nice outing in AAA. Um his health is no longer in question, I don't think. But let's dive into uh Trey Yesavage and his complete befuddlement of the American League. You know, I I've I've said a couple of times, you know, I don't get it because he's pretty much a one-shape pitcher. Now the speed difference between his fastball and his split are good. His arm slot is uh different than a lot of guys. It's very uh high. In fact, they say it's the highest arm slot angle-wise uh in Major League Baseball, which can be difficult. So you're talking about pitches that come out of the same slot with the same arm speed at 10 10 mile an hour differential, and he throws strikes. He he gets up, he gets it up there. He throws hard enough that you gotta respect it. And then meanwhile, he can throw that split at the speed differential that he does. You know, if I'm if I'm game planning against Trey Savage, I I'm telling my guys how we're gonna do it. So I'll keep that to myself for a little while longer. I've I've shared it with a few people, but you know, I'm not a game planner against Trey Savage. I kind of want to see him go out there and continue to dominate for the Jays. Eventually the league's gonna come, you know, they're gonna catch up. Somebody's gonna discover the idea of looking for pitch shape instead of trying to guess with him. Um and I and I've said he doesn't throw his breaking ball enough for it to even be a factor to me as a fan. In fact, when he pitches, I sit there and I try to guess with him because that's what I like to do. But I'm right about 90% of the time that the shape of the pitch is gonna be straight. I just don't know how fast it's gonna be. So I liked what I saw the other day. Uh only three strikeouts in 5.1 innings, but he only gave up a few hits and a lot of weak contact. He didn't strike out a whole bunch of guys. So he he faced 16 batters and struck out three of them. That means 13 guys did something with the bat, and it was weak contact. You know, sixteen outs of weak contact. Four guys got hits that was pretty dominant. And you know, they they yanked him uh in a situation where you know they're pretty much in charge of that ball game, and it was smart to get him out of there. Um although at some point here in the in the near future, you gotta take the gloves off because the bullpen's been overworked already. Um and you can't sustain that. You know, you if if you're thinking you're gonna do it, you're gonna be making trades, you're gonna be bringing up a lot of guys from the minor leagues to cover innings. You know, my estimation of a quality start is different than major league baseball. As they say six innings, uh, three earned runs or less. To me, it it's seven. You know, I I want seven out of my starter, especially when I'm paying him $30 million. And that's a minimum. I've got higher standards. Uh I'm really excited, I think more excited about Springer's return than anybody else's, because I've said it, he's the straw that stirred the drink last year. That the production that you got out of that spot in the lineup is tremendous. Uh power, run scored, run production, uh just awesome. And, you know, I I've I've said that you know, there are guys in the Blue Jays lineup that need to evolve, and I'm still waiting for Varsho to evolve. I'm still waiting for Ernie Clement to uh evolve. I know he's a popular guy. I love the dude. Don't don't take me for not loving on Ernie Clement. I just I love his bat-to-ball skills. So could his approach be better? Yeah, he's he's the softest 300 in the game. Plain and simple. I mean, the guy does not produce runs, he's leading the world in doubles or he's up there, and he never scores. You know, and I use my my ZARP uh run production formula to determine whether or not he's a good player or not. He's a tremendous defender, he's got a great attitude, he's a fun guy, he looks like a looks like a joy to be around. You know, there's something to be said for that. But when you go up there and you you're feast or famine, it's like, okay, no plan whatsoever. I'm gonna swing at everything. Uh never gonna take a walk, especially when you're hitting in front of Vladdy. I'm gonna get it over within a couple of that bats. There's a ripple effect there. There's a ripple effect. You if you're sitting there and you're hitting in front of guys that are doing damage and you make quick outs, first pitch, second pitch outs, what do you think that does to the rest of the club? It means a guy that has a chance to hit the ball out of the ballpark with frequency has to take a pitch right down the middle. And he has to be 0-1, which if you know baseball, you know that the batting average for major league hitters when they're in 0-1 counts, it's below 200. It's not good. I mean, Bladdy deserves an opportunity to swing at the first pitch when he wants to as well. And when you got a guy at the top of your lineup who is a hacking machine, yeah, it's great when he's three for four with a double and you know, but he doesn't score. His run production, according to my formula, is less than I think it's 0.6 right now. That's not good.7's when it starts to get good, point one or one point zero is elite. So you better be catching everything on defense, and I mean everything, if you're only going to be producing 0.6 runs a game, I mean I could I could pretty much get just about anybody to do that if you give them enough at bats.6 is pedestrian. So as I said, time for him to evolve. You know, maybe he could, maybe he couldn't, but I think he could because his bat-to-ball skills are crazy good. He just needs to be better at deciding what his plan's gonna be up at the plate. And it can't just be I'm just gonna hack because I don't like sitting up there. I'm uncomfortable waiting. Well, yeah, okay, I get it. But you know what? You got nothing to lose. You're gonna play every day. They're not gonna throw you to the curb because they're not getting much offensive production out of you, anyways. So try something new. Maybe get on base. On base percentage is a big deal, especially in front of guys that can actually do damage. And when Barger gets back, the guy can do some damage. Vladdy can do some damage. Set the table. Set the table. Yeah, I guess I said and even when you're 0 for 4, if you've gone through a lot of pitches and you've worn out the pitching for the rest of your boys, those are productive at bats. One pitch pop-ups, when you swing at a first pitch non-strike, that's a weak at bat, that's a throwaway at bat, and as I said, it has a ripple effect on the rest of the lineup. Varsho, same way. Like, we got to get a plan. We got to understand what our strengths and weaknesses are, and get good pitches to drive. Start moving, moving runners, start having an idea. Uh nine-on-one approach. What is your role? You can't just be I'm a selfish guy, and I'm gonna swing out of my backside every time I go up there in case I hit it. There's gotta be a plan. And I I think the Jays are gonna get healthy, but man, could they be good if these guys just went up there with a plan and had more productive professional at bats. This is not home run derby. It's not I just don't I just don't understand how these conversations that haven't already been had by coaching staff, by teammates. Because I know if I was if I had to hit behind him all the time and I had to, you know, take a strike 60% of the time because he swung at the first pitch and made a week out, I'd be pretty salty. I wouldn't let it stand. There's no way. Because yeah, he's hitting 300, but he ain't doing nothing with that 300, it's soft. So, you know, we we got we got evolution that needs to take place, in my opinion. Now, I'm not the hitting coach, and I'm certainly not the GM. So if they're gonna live with it, that's on them. But not something I could live with. Uh Louis Varlan is proving to be lights out as a closer if you look at the results. But I'm here to say, careful. I told you to be careful what you what you looked at when you saw the Jays open the season with a three-game sweep of Oakland. Well, I'm here to tell you I love Varland in the closing roll. But I'm also here to warn you, he's too cute. Yeah, he's a handsome guy, but I'm talking about the way he pitches. Too cute. The other day in a in a save uh against the Red Sox, he showed all three guys that he retired three different pitches to do it. Unnecessary. The fastball was electric, the breaking ball was sharp, the changeup was good, I get it, but that's just too many things to show them, especially when you're up three runs. And that's why I'm gonna explain to people what I mean by that. I think his two-pitch mix should be fastball breaking ball to righties, fastball change up to lefties. So, yeah, he got it he got a three-out save, no damage, no, no traffic, no nothing. To to the naked eye, to the untrained observer, that's a save. But to me, the Red Sox hitters, all three guys that got a chance to go up there, they saw everything that Louis Vlane has. So that and and they're gonna play the Red Sox a lot more. So now the next at bat that all three of those guys have, they know exactly what Louis Vlan has. Every single pitch. He's got nothing left in his back pocket to show them or to get them out in a long A B. He threw max effort fastballs, max effort curveballs, max effort changeups, and he showed them every piece of his arsenal. Every arrow that he had in the quiver has been spent. I get it. You know, and and I'm okay with that a little more in a one-run game, because at the end of the day, we just need to get three outs. But when you have a three-run cushion and you have electric stuff like Louis Varlin has, you don't need that many toys. You don't need to spend the whole quiver. Just get them out quickly and show them as little as you possibly can. I'll equate that to a starting pitcher. When a starting pitcher shows the starting lineup for the opposition, every pitch he has first time through the order, there's no mystery. Absolutely no mystery whatsoever. When when you let them behind the curtain and you find yourself in that six, seven pitch at bat, well, if you've already showed them everything you've got, there's nothing left to trick them with. You can't change speeds, you can't change locations, you can't change planes. They already know it. They've seen everything you've got, and that's the biggest difference between my generation and this generation. They will show you everything they've got in one at bat. Not necessarily an inning, not even a first time through the order. They'll show it all to you in one A B, and they wonder why it takes them 115 pitches to go two times through the order, throw, you know, get through five or six innings. 115, that was a complete game CG back in the day. Now they're using up their entire pitch count in five innings because the guys are spitting on borderline pitches. They're fouling everything off because they already know what's coming. So I'm just saying, I love Louis Varland in the closing role, but that dude needs to be a little more stingy and a little less giving when it comes to what he's showing uh people uh from save to save.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Leading off the latest MLB news.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Well, there's been some early surprises in Major League Baseball, you know, and I'm gonna touch on them quickly. I don't really need to get too deep into it. Uh Oakland, wow, you know, I wasn't expecting that. I'm gonna I'm gonna say it out loud. They're leading the the AL West. Now, is it because they're that good or because the AL West is that bad? I'll let you go to the standings and check it out. You'll probably come to the the same conclusion that I have come to. The AL West is terrible. Um The Phillies, wow, got their manager fired, Rob Thompson gone. Uh all those stars in Philly uh playing really poorly. And now we got a very unique uh situation where we have a father-son manager GM situation. The son is the GM, not the manager. The son is the GM, and the the dad is the manager, and we're talking about the Mattingley boys. The Mets are an absolute gong show. I wanted to say another word that goes with show. It alliterates with show, but I'm not going to because I don't want to get in trouble. Uh they're a gong show. Their coaching staff is a joke. Their players are checked out. They they have no motivation whatsoever to be good. Um but one thing that's not a surprise the Cincinnati Reds. Terry Francona is a genius. He's an old school manager, he knows the game. He's probably one of the few guys in the game who is all in, accountable. He he gets to do pretty much what he wants. I would imagine that he he is the situation that you look for where you have a credible experienced baseball guy who understands the metrics, who who uses them as the tools that they should be used as, not the ruler. They are information that is used to make decisions. Uh congratulations to Terry Francona and the Reds for the start that they have got going so far. Uh that's always fun to see because it just hammers home my point that there just aren't enough baseball guys in the game of baseball these days. Love Tito. When I come back on Walk Off Slams, we are going to sit down with a former teammate of mine, Josh Towers.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

You're listening to Walk Off Slams with Greg Zahn on AM 1150.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Welcome back inside the beautiful downtown Kelowna studios of AM 1150, News Talk and Sports. You are listening to Walk Off Slams, and I am your host, Greg Zahn. This week's guest is a former Blue Jays teammate of mine, drafted in '96 in the 15th round by the Orioles. Loved working with this guy because he just made pitches. He had impeccable command, always always knew where the fastball was going. He enjoyed an eight-year career compiling a 4.95 ERA that in today's game would get him paid ridiculously high. Uh best year was with the Blue Jays in uh 2005. I may have caught a couple of those games. 200 innings pits, 13 wins, a 371 ERA. That's like those are all-star numbers. Um 2009, final year in the big leagues, ended up with the Yankees. Wondering if he got a ring, and his name is Josh Towers. Welcome, Josh. How are you today? I'm good, buddy. How are you? I'm good. I never got to ask you that question before. Did the Yankees give you a ring?

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Yeah, I was uh I was in spring training the next year with the Dodgers, and I got a call. I was actually at like an outdoor mall with Scott's girl walking around and I got a call and they said, What's your ring size? And I was like, I'll tell you in two seconds, because the jury showed right in front of me, and I walked in it and told them. I always thought it was cool, man. Like, I didn't like that ring does you remember like uh AJ Berlin? So AJ had that ring with the Marlins. Yeah, the second one. He was showing up on the point. He was showing up on the point sometimes, and AJ always told me, like, uh, I didn't earn this ring. I was like, What do you mean? When we were part of the team, he's like, no, no, I didn't really play like I wasn't, I didn't earn this. I didn't really hear what he meant. Uh they give me a ring, and it hit me immediately what AJ was talking about. Like, I didn't earn that ring. I mean, I I the things that I did in the minor leagues with certain players that impacted them. There's definitely things that I did when I was in the big leagues for the month with AJ Burnett because the pitching coach can really figure out how to get AJ locked in. And I remember telling them, like, do you mind if I just take over? Like, you can just follow us around and kind of like listen to how I how AJ and I get along with the life. I'll be his pitching coach for this month, and he said, Yeah. And so I was able to help AJ get locked in for the first place. I played twice, man. I was just the 25th guy. I was the complete backup to everything that goes extra in some part of me whatsoever earned that ring. But they were cool enough to give it to me, and it was a licensing check was the same thing. They didn't they didn't break it down to like days of service. It was either a quarter, a half, or a full. That's it. That's that's how they did it. The way they looked at it was like if you spent one day in the big leagues with us, you were a part of our team. And before that, we we wouldn't have won in every win as equal. And I remember man like being so appreciative of that organization. Not because of that, but I learned appreciation before that, but like watching that be the finale of my time with them because when I was with the Rockies in a late, I remember sitting down in a meeting and they had gone to the World Series the year before. I don't remember, but um, they played that 153-game playing game where uh Holloway scored a run and was late extra range or something, and then there's no replay, and they call them safe, and it was you know controversy. But for that, they didn't make it in and they got to the World Series, and there was dudes in that team that had like five wins. There was dudes in that team that had a ton of it back, and every everything obviously mattered. They played 153 in three fucking and they wouldn't give guys rooms that had like five wins because they got traded like in June or July or something, and it was it was I watched that organization do that, and then I ended up on the Yankees, and I thought, well, this is there's so much more that goes on than what people think with why people play as well as they do, or the respect that people have for organizations and staff, and seeing the Rockies be the complete bottom of what Major League Baseball is and seeing the Yankees be the pinnacle with just crazy and back to back years to get to witness this.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Yeah, it's there was amazing the difference.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Dude, Marcus, remember Giles the second baseman for the Braves?

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

How many years in a row did they go to the freaking playoffs and he was their second baseman? Dude, he was in camp with us for the Rockies. And we were talking about this. They didn't give certain people playoff shares. How about this? Uh Hop said the Matheus, the active release masseo therapy guy. Had it not been for him, he would not have had the year he had. He said this. They didn't even tip this dude out. He goes, hey, how about this? Like you guys got that huge, you know, world period share. Why don't you guys all just collect $1,000 and put an envelope and send it to him now? And our manager, who I do not have respect for, stands up and goes, Hey, Mark, because maybe you stick around a little longer, we'll listen a little louder until that happens, sit down and shut the blank up. And I was like, Oh my god, what did I just witness? And the next day he quit, and I was like, Yeah, this is no wonder why people aren't along for this place.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Yeah, it's mind-glowing. No, it's I played, I played for so many different organizations, and you there's a reason when you know, when you and I were with the Blue Jays, you look at the fact that the Yankees and the Red Sox were drafting like somewhere between 27 and 30 every year. And yet they were sending guys like Pedroya to the show, like AL uh Rookie of the Year, MVPs. It's like you they get it. They under you understood. And I and I I played against the Yankees and so did you growing up in the Old. Organization. The whole career. And you just know they're taught a different way of doing things from the get-go. They have class. They're not looking at, you know, 50 grand here, 75 grand here, like it means anything to them because they're talking about billions of dollars made and they've won 27 times. So uh yeah, you're gonna get a ring.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Our whole our whole career, we were just like fans. We were taught to hate the Yankees. We were taught they buy their players, and then you start taking a deep dive, and you're like, no, they drafted all those guys. They don't buy any more than anybody else. We're all kind of taught that. I was there one week. I was in AAA, I was there seven days, and Brian Cashman came down to AAA just to check in. And I was like, What are you doing here? And he's like, I like to come check in every now and again. And I was like, ah, you don't really see GMs down in AAA for no reason. And he said to me, he goes, Let me ask you a question. I go, what's up? And he goes, What do you think? I go, What do you mean? He goes, Well, you've been here a week. What do you think about this organization? And I said, permission to speak freely? And he goes, Yeah. And I go, Well, it was always F the Yankees. I go, I played against you my whole life. You guys are always the best. Like we, you know, it's always we hated you guys, right? Because you guys were always so good and we couldn't catch up. I go, Brian, this is the best ran organization I've ever been in. I've been here seven days. I said, I know what I'm doing tomorrow already. I go, it's four o'clock. Look on the board. That's tomorrow's schedule. I already know what time I need to be here and what my responsibilities are tomorrow. Who does that?

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

You know, it was just like the little details. I mean, I can talk all day on this. It was unbelievable. I mean, you said it about money. I don't know if I ever told you a story. I I was uh having the best year I've ever had in 09 because I only went back to play to prove to myself that I can play baseball. So I wasn't planning to go to the big leagues or anything. And uh, dude, I was in the midst of like a 40 scoreless inning streak in AAA. I get a call on my cell phone, and it's Brian, uh GM cashman of the Yankees. On my cell phone, we had just got to Lehigh Valley, I think. And he goes, hey, I need uh we went 18 last night. I need somebody up for extra innings just in case we go extras again. And they'd send somebody down, but they couldn't recall because they didn't send them down because of injury. He goes, the car will be there in like 10 minutes. He needs you to get in it. And I said, Hey, Brian, to be honest with you, man, I'm good. I was like, Well, you call Flacco or somebody up. He's never been to the big leagues, he deserves it, dude. I was like, I didn't really play this year for that. Um, so you know, maybe call somebody else up. And he goes, uh he goes, we go back and forth. He takes the call, he comes back and he says to me, Does your wife like writing those insurance checks? Because you might as well on the major league team uh open day, you get major insurance. If you're not, you can keep it, but it's a few grand a month. And I said, That's a low blow. And he goes, how much money you'll make? Because if I send you back down in two days, you know how much money you'll make in two days? I said, Yeah, it's about 50 grand, Brian. He goes, uh, what does she think about that? I go, she doesn't even know. She doesn't even know anything. And I said, Why are you calling me, by the way? Because this isn't how guys get called up. The manager calls us in the office. I've never seen a GM call a player before. And he goes, I had a feeling you would say no. I said, Brian, that's impossible that you would have that feeling. I said, No one in the history of baseball has ever turned out an opportunity to go to the big leagues. So I know I'm the first right now. I said, but you didn't know I would say no. Now you got my attention, though. Why? How do you know that? And uh he clicks back over and it was my agent. He had called him first for some reason. And he goes, Joel said, get in the car. And I got Brian, one more fight of not going to the big leagues, Greg. I go, Brian, it's two o'clock. The game's at four o'clock. I gotta go through New York traffic. I'm not gonna get there by the fourth inning. He goes, Good, I don't need you so the tent. Get in the car. He hung up on me. And that's how that went.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Yeah, well, I can't it doesn't surprise me. You don't surprise me that's with that story, and and him having a feel. I mean, look, I I I I look at the baseball executives today and I think to myself, well, how many of them really have a feel for uh baseball? They have a feel for business and statistics, but uh I mean I look no further than the pitching that's happening today and how different it is and the focal points. And I know you you were a pitching coach in the Mets organization for a blip. You're a throwback guy, you were a fastball command guy first. I mean, uh when I look at the metrics that are being thrown around today and how focused they are on that stuff, and the fact that, you know, I I will argue till the day I die with my last breath that the radar guns are inflated, like you probably would have thrown like 95, 96 miles an hour in today's game.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Yeah, I I capped out at 96, but I liked I was very comfortable between like 87 and 92 because I can control it the best. If I started the game at 91, 92, I had too I was too amped up and I couldn't get the ball down. So like if I started at 86 or 87 and I progressed to 92 or 93 as the game went on, like that's how my body works the best. Yeah, if I wanted to throw 96 every pitch in today's game, that that wouldn't be an issue. How about this stat I saw today? The percentages of basically pitcher starters that go uh seven innings during the season. So I looked at it back in 05, and now that time it was always like 35, 34% of the guys go seven innings throughout the course of the season. Obviously, back in the day it was more like 45, 44 percent. It's it's dropped down every year to the amount of times a starter goes seven innings. 11% of the time a starter went seven innings last year. The average was 35. That's crazy. Wait, how do you win games if you're what do you learn about baseball as a starting pitcher if you're not going deep? How do you set your bullpen up if the starters aren't going seven innings? I it's mind-blowing. You pay all these guys all this money to pitch five innings, nothing's on the line. You don't learn anything in five innings. I used to tell Gibby that. I said, Gibby, why do you keep pulling me after five? He's like, I don't know, JT. It's just like I just I don't know, it's just this feeling I have. It's it's nothing you, it's just this feeling I have. And I said, I said, John, I don't have to work out. I don't have to run. I don't have to do anything to go five innings. I can do that in my sleep. I said, if you keep pulling me after five, I'm never gonna leave the bar. I said, John, I don't have to do anything to go five innings. I'm not letting anything. I said, if you freaking keep me working out on the bar, you might want to start letting me go five out or six or seven or eight innings, dude. Like, this is ridiculous. I can do that in my sleep. Well, what's on the line? What did you learn? Where's the stressful pitch? Where's the situation that holds any value in the the game? I so I can't get a win, but I can get a loss.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Well the where's the value?

SPEAKER_02 28:33

The Kansas City Royals the year they won the the World Series with nothing more than a just a kick-ass bullpen, that ruined the game. Because literally, you're you're bang on. I'm I'm looking at the Blue Jays rotation, and I'm looking at a guy like like Dylan Sees with just off-the-charts stuff. Stuff. It's he is ERA somewhere between four, three, and five for his career. How does that happen? Because the guy doesn't understand how to pitch.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Well, you're right. But and that's the thing too, like Dylan Sees, uh as soon as the first pitch of the game happens, I'll tell you if he's gonna get rocked or he's gonna dominate. I'll tell you the first pitch. And the thing is, is he doesn't know how to change it. Once it happens, he doesn't know how to back off and change things to get back into a pitching mode because why? Because he's probably never really learned the psychology of pitching. But Dylan C's stuff is some of the best in baseball. If he's if he's flat, if he's flat in the first inning, if that ball's up in the first inning, he's gonna give up seven. If he's downhill in the first inning, you're not touching the guy. Yeah but I don't know if he's never recognized it or the pitching coach has never recognized it, but the ability to back off and create a downhill angle to be successful, they don't have that ability. And it's like, well, what are we afraid of? We were in Boston, Greg. You were catching me, you don't even know this Boston, and I was getting rocked the first couple innings, and I just couldn't get the ball down. So I I decided I was gonna back off velocity and get on top and just pitch downhill. So from the third inning to the sixth inning, I took my velocity and I was like 83, 84 miles per hour because all I wanted to do was get back and create a downhill plane so that ball was pitching downhill and bottoming out, and I went scoreless those innings. Then I got cocky in the in the last inning and I started to go back on it, and I got rocked. But and I remember uh Gibby in between and and Arnie in between were like, yo, are you hurt? And I'm like, no, but uh the way I was pitching was clearly not working, so I had to make an adjustment. So what do I care how hard the pitch is if I'm getting them out? Why do I care how hard the pitch is if they're crushing me? So like I literally backed off like six miles per hour just to create a downhill angle so I can finish and get the ball downhill, and it worked, but like almost got pulled out of the game because of it. And it's like, where is my ego in velocity that supersedes winning the baseball game or being successful?

SPEAKER_02 30:53

Yeah, they're they're they're they're focused on the wrong things. Now, you and I both know you need a certain amount of velocity, you need a certain amount of location, all this, you need a certain amount of movement stuff, all that stuff. Yeah, finish is a great way to put it. Thank you. You got to have finish on your pitches. And uh bottom line is is these guys are you know they're all I I'm surprised any of them can turn their head because they they they throw a pitch and they immediately go right to the radar gun. What was it? What was it? What was it? Was it you know and and I and I'm like, you know, I'm getting ready to build myself a t-shirt that says, hey, what's your spin rate? Just kidding, I don't give an F. Uh that pitch got hit out of the yard.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

But you know what I do, you know what I do care about? What's your true spin? Tell me that. I don't care about your spin rate. What's your true spin? Because is it is your spin rate 2200, but your true spin's 1800, which means it's slowing down as it gets to home plate, or is your true spin 2200 like it comes out of your hand because it's actually finishing on the same pace that it's starting? What's your true spin? Like that's the most important part, or your induced vertical. But like, yeah, like if I don't care how hard you throw, if that ball is slowing down and changing off its lanes before it gets to home, you might as well put it on a T and tell them what's coming.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

Yeah, well, that's that's another that's one that's one of the things that made Mariano's cutter so amazing. Is it it went all the way to the batter circle and then it changed lanes? All these other guys out here that are throwing cutters or what they call cutters, they're baby sliders, and they announce themselves as soon as they leave the guy's hand.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Right, but that's the thing too, right? It's like you can't look at somebody, that's the cover of the book. You you gotta go and read the book to understand it. Yeah, okay, every we all have the same stuff. Everybody can throw a cutter, it's a slider that I just don't get around, whatever. Or how I place my fingers in pressure. But why does every batter in the world know Mariano Rivera is throwing a cutter away and why is he successful? Why does every hitter in Major Baseball know that you're right-handed and it's a one and two count and Josh Towers is throwing a four-seen fastball down and away? Why can I tell you what's coming and you still can't do anything with it? Like that's the question that needs to be answered, and we don't have long enough to talk about that. But but when I when when the hitter knows what's coming, when I know the hitter knows what's coming, that's the most successful place I can be in if I have control. Because now I know you know what's coming, and what is your tendency as a hitter? It's to swing. So you get what you're looking for right out of the hand, you're swinging. The problem is you can't tell the difference between one or two ball lengths on the naked eye, but one or two ball lengths is a lot to your barrel. So you're still gonna swing, but I can instead of throwing it on the corner, I can throw it two ball lengths off. To you, it's the exact same pitch, so you're swinging no matter what, because you got what you're looking for. And now I hit the end of your bat and you roll over and you can't figure out how you miss it. Gabs are genius.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Yeah. Yeah, I I say this, I say it all the time, man. You're you're hitting, you're hitting the nail on the head. I was like, there's two options here. There's a pitch that's different than what he's looking for, or you can give him what he's looking for and throw it in a place where he can't hit it, especially when it's breaking ball. Because hitters are stupid, bro.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

So, so I maybe uh you just summed it up, and I think it's simple as pitching is. I can give you what you're looking for, but I can locate it. Here's the top of your zone that you hit a home run. Well, guess what? Three inches above that, you can't get to it. All right, so I have to have the ability to know and do that. And the other part is what you just said. You're looking left and I fell in right. Well, why is that capable? Because that's what pitching is, that's what chess is. So now you got the two very simplest parts of how you pitch. Zig when they zag, give them what they're looking for, but have the ability to just throw it off that line by one ball length or two ball lengths. Hey, you know what? You sparked my brain. Remember in 05, dude, when we were rolling and I was dealing, and we were playing in Tampa, and Aubrey Huff uh struggled with Carl Pavonner's backdoor cutter, and so you and I were going to the well on that, and we took a perfect game into the seventh inning, and you called a backdoor cutter, and he flipped a single into uh short left field, and I thought you were going to murder me on the field. We had a game in the seventh inning, and you lost it on me on the field because the kids it ended on the corner. So it started out to play and it finished right on the corner, but you wanted it like two inches out, and I just got it to the corner just enough, and we lost our perfect game, and I thought you were gonna murder me.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Oh, I'm sure I wanted to because I I lost so many damn no hitters in perfect games after the seventh inning in my career. It just I was never gonna throw um strike. I was I was done. So I'm gonna ask you one more question. You because you were talking about the like people don't realize that hitters have hot, cold zones, okay? Um and and just outside of those hot zones are usually the chase zones because uh as hitters we look at an area and we're like, oh yeah, that's my spot, that's my spot. And uh you hit the nail on the head. Ball a ball or two off of that hot spot is uh a spot where I can get off the barrel, either get on the hands or I can get off the end. Yeah. What are your chances? If you're yeah, exactly. It's all we really want. What are the chances? And I want I want people to understand this. Parents, if you're listening out there, it's not about max effort, because I already know the answer to this question. Josh, what are the odds that you're gonna hit your spot three inches outside that hot zone if you're throwing every pitch max effort?

SPEAKER_00 36:23

You can't throw every pitch max effort. It's impossible because you'll run out of gas. Because where do you build the timing and the stamina to do that? Because you don't run max effort, you don't throw max effort, you never throw a bullpen max effort, you don't play catch max effort, and you don't do that max effort long enough to build the stamina to do it. Two pitches, ten pitches, twenty pitches, fifty pitches, a hundred pitches. So you have to pitch in the zone that you build the endurance with your muscles and your cardio to actually control for as long as you need to control it. I always said that. We don't throw it 100%. I finish every pitch. There's 100% finish on every pitch, but as far as trying to throw it as hard as you can, well then you have to train throwing it as hard as you can, your muscles, your cardio, your endurance. And then you have to train your timing to be able to do it as hard as you can so you can locate it, which is impossible. And so I always said this like we might throw it like, you know, maybe 90%, but you uh you have to have the ability to add and subtract off of every pitch and control it, right? So that's energy through the pitch. That's not my line. I can't throw harder and miss my line. So I have to have the ability to add and subtract off of every pitch, and yes, that includes my fastball. Um and so I I you ever notice when pitchers are sick or like pitchers, when starting pitchers start to get uh almost a little bit tired, that's when we become our best because that's when we start to control ourselves and and not blow energy or not get out of rhythm or get off of timing. But to throw as hard as you can, max effort, that's an impossible feat. And so can you go, if I'm doing my 25-minute cardio run the day after I pitch because I have to flush, I have to build the stamina to pitch nine innings, I gotta build the stamina to pitch a full season. I do all my sprint work and stuff in between that that simulates a pitcher. But if I'm gonna like try to throw Max Effort, then I gotta go do a 25-minute sprint. I gotta play catch every time I ever throw at Max Effort. You that's impossible to do.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Well, I gotta say this. Why would I want to disrupt timing?

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Yeah, no, you you you there there's a pl there's a work spot there. Now, I I'll just say this before you know I let you go. Because I I'm really excited about this summer. I mean, for those of you who don't know, uh especially here in the Okanagan, uh, you know, Josh is gonna be the pitching coach for me and the Kelowna Falcons this summer. Uh you want to see some of this genius on display. You want to have a conversation, a high-level conversation about pitching. Uh come and sit down and talk with this guy about baseball. I'm I've got a a front row seat to it. Um I know I've been on the receiving end of a ton of pitches, uh you know, the the masterful uh uh command. But when you when you listen to a guy who's been there and done it, been on a big league mound, who understands metrics, who understands uh mechanics, uh that's when you get the the the proper marriage. And so I'm looking forward to uh uh getting you up here to Kelow Bud and I can't wait to see the magic that's gonna happen with this pitching staff. So uh again, I know we've had we've had you on before. I'm gonna have you on again because I love to talk about this stuff with you. Um you know it's it it's it's it's a beautiful thing, and people need to understand uh that this is uh this is what it what it looks like when when you talk about high-level pitching. So uh I'm gonna I'm gonna let you go. I really appreciate you being here again um and look forward to having you one more time, my man.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Absolutely. Thanks, brother.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

You got it. When we come back on uh walk off land, uh uh you get a chance to hear the uh Sunday roast.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

And now the Sunday roast with crap on.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

In my opinion, instant replay is no better than flipping a coin. In a recent Cubs pod raise game, Major League Baseball umpires completely dropped the ball on a slow roller up the third baseline. Anyone with eyes could see it came to rest in foul territory, but because of the umpire's line of sight, it was ruled a fair ball. The umpire did not get himself into a good position and blew the call so bad that Major League Baseball apologized for it after the fact. So why didn't they go to the tape? Well, it's not a reviewable call. Really, you ask? How on earth is fair or foul not reviewable? It is once the ball passes into the outfield, but it's not on the infield, making me wonder why we have instant replay at all if not to get the call right? Here's a list of reviewable plays. Uh potential home run calls, non-home run boundary calls, meaning calls involving a decision regarding whether a live ball bounces out of the field of play, strikes the top of a fence, or hits a railing, are other obstacle in the ballpark. Was it interfered with by a fan reaching over the fence? Was it successfully caught by a fielder proximate to a stadium boundary, or did it leave the field of play and become a dead ball? Other reviewable plays involve fair or foul if the first landing spot is at or beyond first or third base, tag plays, did he leave early? Is it a catch? Collisions at the plate, you know, the buster posey stuff. Was he hit by a pitch? Interference on double plays, uh, keeping it soft and floral, now we have a posey rule and a pansy one. Moving on to finally, where were the runners when the play became dead? The instant replay rule covers a lot, but is it really making a difference and do they actually get it right? I would argue not even close. I sit there night after night and watch irrefutable evidence being ignored, leading to the question, what are they looking at? I'd be looking at a play trying to get it right. Forget about their safety net of the rule that protects their decisions by saying the call on the field stands unless the evidence to overturn is indisputable. It's umpires watching TV in a room. Umpires are the ones being challenged on the field, and wouldn't you know it? The percentage of overturned calls has remained static at around 50%. One for them, one for us. How can they screw it up twice even after watching it in slow motion? Flipping a coin will get you nearly the same result. Major League Baseball needs to rewrite the rule. It's either fair or foul. He's out or safe. And whose idea of irrefutable are we using? Well that differs week to week because the guys in the room, they differ week to week. So many calls are in need of changing and yet they aren't. Maybe it's time to get unbiased former players in the replay room instead of umpires. Umpires are always going to be on Team Umpire, and there's only one team of those at each stadium. Former players only see players and would have less of a reason to protect their own, given the fact that in every situation protecting one is penalizing the other. It's hard to believe how many calls I see being missed when they have the benefit of high-tech free frame and multiple camera angles. When you remember the buffer zones of ABS and the protection clause of so-called indisputable proof, you've got to ask yourself, is this all just a waste of time? Why can't we review every play and why can't we get obvious calls right? Why does instant replay even exist if not to get it right? I understand umpires are human, prone to error. ABS has shown me how great they are, but the gloves are off. The protection is gone. Instant replay in ABS already throws umpires under the bus in front of the entire world. I'm not a fan of it, but if you're gonna do something, do it right. If the best we can do is 50-50 split, then why don't we flip a coin for it? The fans would go bonkers. Can you imagine? The call on the field is being challenged. Heads for safe, tails for out. It's Sunday. Can you smell that roast?