Unlearn — Cal Callahan on Letting Go of Who You Never Were

Book: https://amzn.to/48phRtl

The Great Unlearn Podcast: https://www.thegreatunlearn.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cal.callahan/

Cal Callahan spent 18 years as a trader at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange — checking every box that was supposed to add up to a fulfilling life. Great career. Financial success. Wife, three kids, the whole picture. And then one night in Las Vegas, hiding behind tour buses during the Route 91 mass shooting, he realized something was missing.

That was the beginning of eight years of what he calls intense existential inquiry. Not from a place of having nothing — but from a place of having everything and still feeling like he hadn't lived the life he was meant to live.

His new book is called Unlearn: Letting Go of Who You Never Were to Become Everything You Already Are.

In this conversation:

• Resume virtues vs eulogy virtues — the moment you start questioning what you actually want to be remembered for
• Why the things that made you successful can become the things that keep you stuck
• The Las Vegas shooting and the realization that he hadn't lived the life he was meant to live
• Why men in particular struggle to feel what they're meant to feel — and what they use to avoid it
• The difference between being a good guy and being a good man
• How psychedelics, men's groups, and plant medicine accelerated the unlearning
• Role vs essence — and what it feels like to finally know who you are
• Where the podcast name Nothing Is Wrong actually came from

🎙️ Nothing Is Wrong is a podcast about trading self-improvement for self-discovery — so you can stop fixing your life and start living it. Not in the future. Right now.

Follow the show: 

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/nothing-is-wrong/id1887103237 

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4hudjKRYzS3oBqspMwpz2R 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nothingiswrongco/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I found myself there hiding behind the tour buses as the shooting was happening. And just in this state of like, man, if if I don't make it out of this situation, there was a part of me that felt like I hadn't lived the life I was meant to live. And yet, if you had told me when I was a lot younger that I would have acquired all these things and built this life and had a wife with three kids and the friendships I had, I would have said, No way, this is exactly what I would have hoped for. But there was something that was missing.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Cal Callahan is the host of the great Unlearned and the author of a brand new book called Unlearned. He spent 18 years as a trader checking every box that was supposed to add up to a fulfilling life. And then one night in Las Vegas, hiding behind a tour bus during the Route 91 mass shooting, he realized something was missing. He shares a great perspective really on all things life. I'm Brooks Coleman. This is the Nothing Is Wrong podcast. And here's my conversation with Cal Callahan. All right, welcome back to the Nothing Is Wrong podcast today. I have a very special guest, Cal Callahan. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Yeah, thanks, Brooks. Thanks for having me, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Yeah, of course. And uh super exciting day for you yesterday. New book launched on Amazon. And I read this uh this description of it yesterday, and I was like, all right, well, I'm gonna read that to kick this off because it couldn't be a better uh a better description of this journey in general. So here it goes. So your book is called Unlearn Letting Go of Who You Never Were to Become Everything You Already Are. At some point, if you're lucky, the life you've built will stop making sense. The strategies won't deliver, the titles won't hold weight, the mirror will feel unfamiliar. That's when the invitation shows up wrapped in confusion, pain, or a faint whisper you can't ignore. That's what happened to me. A trader at the top of his game, a father on autopilot, a man doing all the right things, and quietly unraveling inside. This is the story of what came next: a journey through the uncomfortable middle, through the reckonings and revelations, through the peeling away of every should until only truth remained. Unlearning isn't about fixing yourself. It's about freeing yourself. It's about meeting your life as ceremony and your mistakes as medicine. It's about waking up to the realization that you've always had what you were searching for. If something in your life doesn't fit the way it used to, this is your permission slit. You're not broken, you're remembering. Yeah. Beautiful, man. I feel like I could just hit end on the podcast right now.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yeah, yeah. I'm just really kind of feeling into you reading that. And uh yeah, it brings up a lot for me. Just it's you know, I think for so many men in particular, you know, we hit uh midlife crisis. It's funny, I was talking to my uh he's kind of my business partner and and and really close friend, and we were talking about kind of the book launch, and he's like, Cal, for lack of a better term, you're kind of like the midlife crisis guy, you know, like in the sense that this book and certainly with my podcast, I'm exploring these challenges that I've gone through and others, you know, as I bring people onto the podcast. And it and it's it's super challenging because the the for me, the crisis really becomes it's an opportunity. Um as we start to awaken to a new way of being in our lives. You know, I love the framework of I don't know if you've heard this concept of resume virtues and eulogy virtues. And these resume virtues are simply those things that we work on through the early parts of our lives to create success and to really build the resume. These are the things I'm good at. This makes me hireable and can create, you know, financial abundance and so on and so forth. And and I think at a certain point we we start to orient towards these things that we want people to remember us by. You know, at our funeral, in the eulogy, what are what are people going to be saying about me? Um and for me, it was like, yeah, it's it's not like that I was a traitor and that I did this and did that. It's like, who actually am I? And when those things start to pop up in life, it it doesn't really jive with the story that I was told growing up on what uh fulfilling life was all about. Um I think that's pretty common for a lot of us is to have this framework of like, oh, I do this, I'm gonna be successful, and I'm gonna be happy, you know, forever and ever. And, you know, in my experience, it's just not the case. And so there's like a reckoning between these two things that needs to happen. And for me, like I kind of swung away from the resume for a bit into the eulogy stuff, and that's not it either. But it's really for me, it's about really exploring the greater meaning for being here, whatever that means for each of us. And then through that like inquiry, so much of the things that I was taught were just not true. And um, you know, the further I I kind of dive into those things, you know, I don't want to say it was all a lie, but so much of it is untrue. So much is is given to other people's experiences that they're telling us this is what you do, but when we have our own experience, it doesn't deliver like we thought it was going to. Um, and so I I really want the book to be uh almost like uh not even really a guide, like a companion along that journey of like, look, here are all the ways that I felt out of sorts where my things weren't making sense and and how I explored the unknown, you know, the stuff that I hadn't really maybe experienced on my own. And, you know, the I had the good fortune of being surrounded by you know some really important mentors along the way that that helped guide me and let me know, like, you're not crazy, yeah, man. Like it's very different than what we're told. And you know, so the book is is definitely vulnerable. Um I've certainly shared a lot of this stuff on my podcast, but just kind of in one, you know, I would say very readable, very accessible, you know, kind of book. It's I think it can give people, I hope my hope is it gives people some peace that, you know, again, with with the name of your podcast, nothing is wrong. Like, nothing is wrong. It's it's it's uncomfortable. But but we know in our own experience that that's where the real growth and understanding and that's how we get to know who we are in those moments. Um and so now when I when I'm feeling that bit of tension in my life, instead of you know reverting into my cave or going into a shell and not wanting to feel the things, I try to just be aware that, okay, there's something here that wants to be released. There's an old part of me, there's an old story, there's something that I believed from a long time ago that it still has its grips on me. Um, you know, and so hopefully I can and kind of face it and then move through it rather than have that pattern continue to repeat and repeat. You know, and and a lot of the work I've done with different plant medicines has has helped bring those things to light. That's been super helpful. Being a part of men's groups, you know, I've had a few that are really powerful. And you know, really in these men's groups, it's not all about doing this men's work. You know, one of my men's group meets once a week, and we don't do anything structured around men's work, but on a given Monday when we're together, there are groups of guys that may be going through some stuff and they'll be talking about it in a smaller group. Sometimes it's the the full group, but ultimately see, ultimately, I haven't been on this journey on my own, and I think that's one of the big challenges for men today is they aren't as fortunate to be in a community like I'm in where it's very uh top of mind, you know, that we're questioning these things and we're curious, and um, and so hopefully, you know, through the book and the podcast, it lets people know like you're not alone. And even though my story's different, the the themes are very consistent, I feel like, across, you know, kind of most men's experiences.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Yeah, I feel I love how you highlighted for men specifically. I mean, mine a lot of what your story brings out for me is just this drive to I need to contribute, I need to be useful to everyone else. And for me, that turned into, you know, I was pretty good at math, I was pretty good at school, and this clinging to like how can I show I'm smart? How can I contribute right now? And having that running makes hanging out and just connecting terrifying. Because it's like, what do I do? How do I be useful here? Uh so that what that's like as I you know, as I've heard your story uh in a few different podcasts and and heard you talk about it, I think what really has resonated for me is like you are you in you in your 40s, 50s? Yeah, 54. 54, okay. It's like you're not some person who's you know living in Bali without without kids and and uh a spouse and a career. Um for for people that aren't familiar with you, can you share just a who you thought you were 20 years ago or or whatever resonates like because I think that's so key for people to hear instead of just somebody you know kind of just talking about things to talk, you've really lived this this full circle journey.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Oh man, I appreciate that. Yeah, and I think I think that's why I felt so compelled to start sharing this on you know with the podcast back, you know, maybe six years ago now. Uh because I felt like I had lived a pretty kind of normal life in that sense. Um and in a lot of ways, like a lot of men, to your point, like over-identified with this uh achiever, provider, this idea that to your point I wanted to be useful. I wanted to matter. You know, in a group of people, I wanted to be someone that could be relied upon to gather resources, to do whatever. I wanted, you know, just like a lot of us, so that whatever the the lens of achievement looked like, you know, it's really what we're taught. And um, you know, I started out of college. I went to Chicago. I was a trader uh at the Chicago Mercatale Exchange and the Board of Trade for, I guess, I was there for 18 years, I traded for 17 years, and you know, I was good at it. And definitely enjoyed that identity of being a trader, and I was really into fitness, I was in really good shape. So I was checking a lot of these boxes that a lot of men think they're like great, ooh, these are cool things for my resume. And that's great, awesome. Do those things and show discipline and structure and resilience and do hard things. And that like I think that's amazing to have those practices. But for me, it became kind of every everything for me, you know, is being, you know, my my wife and I actually just celebrated our 26th year anniversary yesterday too, which was kind of cool that the the book launch happened then. Um which wasn't necessarily on purpose, but when when I was getting ready to launch the book three plus months ago, they're like, okay, you need to pick a date. It's a it's gotta be a Tuesday, because that's when Amazon, you know, launches, and it's gotta be at least 10 weeks from now. It's like, okay, so I went 10 weeks out, and then my wife and I were in Japan for two of the Tuesdays, and then I was in away last Tuesday, and so I was like, okay, I guess it's this next Tuesday, and it's our anniversary. So even though it looked like I planned it, it was like literally like the first open date that I was back here in Austin. So anyway, um this over-identification for me in particular as a provider, you know, I had kind of checked that box of providing, and let's just say, in a um financial sense, you know, for my family. Honestly, quite a long time ago, and even as I started to do this work, I recognized that there was like some dissonance between like over-identifying with that that archetype of you know, the father, you know, really providing, and uh it took me a long time to really get through it. You know, when those feelings come up for me when I'm not providing enough, it's a lot shorter kind of refractory period where I kind of laugh like ridiculous. Like, of course you have. Like what is required now is like deeper presence, like literally just being there, connecting my wife, my kids, friends, and then just seeing what magic comes out of that. As well as like bringing in those, you know, kind of putting those resume virtues in their proper place. It's a classic when you're a hammer, everything's a nail. And so for me, it's really zooming out and not like checking to make sure all our assets are doing exactly what they need to be doing. And and just being in these different seasons, particularly over the last couple years of of having to throw out my financial playbook that I'd used for the last 25 years, and it it ain't working anymore. You know, so that's been quite a uh it's been pretty confronting. Uh it's been relieving, but also uh I'm being asked to do it differently when when when it worked for a long time, but not for the reasons I thought. I thought it was more because I had I had more of a hand in it, but so much of it was luck, too, and just like getting real honest with myself about you know kind of my strengths in that area and yeah, and just allowing that to be in its proper place, and and so it's again, I think the book really lays out this uh honest assessment of how I was kind of doing all the right things on paper, but it it lacked you know an authentic um orientation to this other piece, this kind of legacy piece.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Yeah, it really seems like it it'd be easy for for someone to see like, oh, you're on the other side of this long career, a lot of financial success, whatever it may be, material success. And I think it's like it's easy to imagine that oh the problem like problems aren't aren't as or quote unquote problems aren't as challenging, but like as I'm listening to you talk, it's like this mind of ours will just find a new one, right? Oh yeah. Now we have how do we keep it? Now we have it, how do we grow it? How do we do this and this? So yeah, it's so it's it's hilarious, but uh also so perplexing to just think about this. Everybody hears it. Everybody hears, hey, it's not gonna make you happy.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

And we're just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but yeah, I think it is. Like I but I'm just gonna do it. I'm just gonna keep doing it. Like, what do you think was was this a slow burn across your career? I mean, I know I've heard you talk about the the Vegas shooting, yeah. That that was kind of a wake up, but as you look back, was there always kind of a hint of like what were the moments along the journey that you were like, this is kind of a fucking scam here? Like, this isn't making me happier.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Yeah, there were some whispers. It's funny too. In the book, I literally say, if someone had told me that having this financial success wouldn't make me happy, I'd tell them the pound sand. Like, of course, I would be different. Yeah, literally, as you're saying that, I'm like, I almost said that word for word in the book because it is so common. Yeah, like I'm the exception, like who's to say? Like, plenty of people look happy when they've had financial success. Um, I I would say the last couple years of trading, which would have been like 2012 and 2013. I just got the sense that like that career was coming to an end, and I felt like I was just wasting my time. And the business was kind of slow in the pit, and we were taking more risks to make less money. It just was didn't have any of the energy for it. And so I read a book by David Data called The Way of the Superior Man, and when I was reading that, like one of the chapters just like totally hit me, and it was like, oh, you're just you're at the end of this cycle with this career that you know you maybe thought you were going to be in longer. Now, granted, I was there for 18 years, but I got friends who are still there 25 plus years later. And, you know, for me, I wouldn't have been surprised if I was there for 25 years, but there was kind of the perfect storm that the firm did, you know, we didn't make money for a couple years. I was taking more risk as being a partner. I'm like, what am I doing? And I was getting into fitness and lifestyle and really learning a lot about that, nutrition and life coaching. That's kind of drew me into something that was more important than you know, just kind of growing the bank account. So yeah, I would say leading up to that, so 2013 I leave and then in 2017 I find myself in Las Vegas at the Jason Aldean, you know, Route 91 festival, but the Jason Aldean show on that Sunday night, and that's when the the mass shooting occurs, and what's interesting as an aside.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

A lot of people forgot that that even happened.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Which is a whole nother podcast conversation that deals with so much of the cover-up of that experience. Like that, the the the biggest mass shooting on US soil was out of the news cycle in three days. Like that is just fascinating. What the hell is that? Right? Well, I I have a good friend of mine here who he lives in Austin now who did a podcast with uh Tucker Carlson, Ian Carroll, at the end of the year, and he he unpacks it over the course of like two and a half, three hours, and it is fascinating. Again, for another time.

unknown 21:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

But you know, I find myself there I'm hiding behind the tour buses as the the shooting was happening. And just in this state of like man, if if I don't if I don't make it out of this situation, because we had no idea really what was unfolding, um, I was like sad, not the right word. Word uh unfulfilled, not quite the right word, but there was a part of me. That felt like I hadn't lived the life I was meant to live. And yet, if you had told me when I was a lot younger that I would have acquired all these things and built this life and had a wife with three kids and the friendships I had, I would have said, No way, this is exactly what I would have hoped for. But there was something that was missing. And it it kind of took me a while to figure out what that was. But when I got home to Austin the next day, uh that was on a Monday, then on a Tuesday, I got together with a group of people to do some NAD plus IV therapy. And some of those people were Lance Armstrong, uh, a dear brother of Kyle Kingsbury, who's shows up in the book a fair amount because he took me through my first medicine journey. But he was really the linchpin for me, the portal for me to start to get to know myself in a new way. And certainly one avenue was through the use of psychedelics, but it was so many other things that I hadn't been exposed to. And I just started to look at life through a different lens. And it was about 18 months later that I realized, like, oh, I'm just trying to figure out why I'm here because it's it's not all the reasons that I was told. And so that was the big wake-up I would say would be Las Vegas, even though it took a while for me to understand that that's what was kind of awoken in me. And then since then, you know, it's been eight plus years of this fairly at times intense existential inquiry of like, you know, like why am I here? And I'm willing to try all the things to find to really discover my blind spots and to understand the stories that I've been believing since I was a little kid. Um, and some of those things feed directly into the things that made me successful as a trader. So it's great. Like this wanting to be useful, wanting to be loved, wanting to be liked by people. And it drove particular behavior. Great. But it wasn't until I kind of made peace with those things and let go of the story that I'm not lovable, that I need to be liked, that I need to be a particular way in a particular group. Like as I've done the deeper work, I've really started to understand who I am. And I get to show up as that person in any setting. And that's something that's I would say really only happened uh over the last year. And in particular, I would say over the last four or five months, I've gotten a real clear sense of who I am. And so I have deep deep comfort no matter who I'm with. Uh, and that feels really good to not have to track, okay, what's what's the avatar I'm showing up, you know. Seriously, it's so fucking tiring. You don't know until you know that this is what I was doing it my entire life. Subtle, but it was happening because I could feel like I get into certain groups. I I just feel a little off. You know, I feel a little the the the the words didn't flow so easily, and I was maybe trying to present a particular way, and you know, as I just said, fuck it, like I don't need everybody to like me. I'm not gonna say things to just stir it up, but I I am who I am, and if I can just be impeccable with sharing who that is and getting more and more clear with who I am, and again, continue to do the work to see my blind spots, and again, I'm surrounded not only by you know an amazing wife, um my wife Peyton, but um, but friends that really hold me to that. And if I'm saying some bullshit, they're gonna let me know. Maybe with humor in the beginning, but eventually they'll be like, dude, what the fuck? You know, what's going on? Um, and then, you know, for anyone who has kids, like, there's really no greater teacher than those kids. They do not care. And they like the the nice things and all that, don't get me wrong, but at the end of the day, they call me on my bullshit because that's like I'm their dad. And so that is, you know, I feel for uh, you know, I think about people who have a lot of influence and they have financial success, and they're single. Um and they're my age. Like you're able to really insulate yourself. Um and it's I don't think people do it intentionally, but it just it's it's really comfortable. But your kids, you can't be insulated from your kids, they're gonna let you know. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Yeah. The uh so we have an eight-month-old our first, and uh it's just so funny to me that like well, there's so many layers to this, but I'm like wanting to go meditate, you know, and I'm like, why don't I just use sitting with my daughter who's crying or needs attention? It it's such a funny thing because I look back to before having her and you know, the control with the routine and the meditation and whatever other practices I have. And now it's like, no, there's no better personal growth tool than having this. I mean, she was a screaming, crying baby for the first couple months, and there's no better practice than just sitting with that and allowing it. And you know, there's not there's no one to blame. You can't blame this baby who has no idea what the hell's going on. Just sitting in that has been so much more powerful than everything I was doing combined before. It's so so amazing.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Well, I love that that this early on in your your fatherhood journey that you are aware of that. It's be fucking years, years upon years. And so I always love, particularly when I hear dads that have this level of presence already. Um it's because we do, we we have all these practices and we do these things, and they're really useful. But as you just reframed, like, can I be the calm in this chaos that's actually happening in life? It's not me sitting there meditating, which is great when the thoughts are going and trying to quiet it, whatever your orientation is to meditating, but there are so many opportunities, and in you know, I think for our kids, they show us, you know, I'll just speak for myself, they've shown me where I'm not free. You know, so can I just be relaxed when two of them are fighting? Right? When my boys are in their teens and they're fighting while they're playing basketball, they're gonna be fine, even if they start throwing punches, they're gonna be fine. Do I need to break it up? Or do I just need to let them work it out and me know that they're gonna be okay? Because in almost every single case of an incident like that, both of them are okay. You know, me intervening is actually going to stun the cycle that they need to go through to repair whatever happened. And so there's so much of that control that wants to come in, like, hey, calm down, stop that, cut the shit. What the the the and I think we all understand that where that comes from, but like just allowing it to happen, you know, and you can certainly be a part of the repair process if it's necessary, but there's so many ways, especially as the kids get older, that you know, it's like new levels, new devils, they just start to show, you know, they've shown me new areas that I didn't realize that I needed to work on. I mean, my kids are 23, 20, and 18, so it's you know, and I would say over the last three or four years, it's it's been it's been a ride. It's well, it's they continue, I would say, and part of it is just my awareness to it, but I've grown so much through my relationship with them over the last couple of years. Um and they're giving me that opportunity, which is so cool.

SPEAKER_04 31:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

I I that that's sticking out to me a lot as you as you describe this, the appreciation for discomfort or anything that comes up. Because that I think that is such a catalyst to everything. I mean, that that's everything. Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

We know, right? The shittiest things we've been through, there's been gold on the other side. It may take a while.

unknown 31:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

We don't want to go through the shitty thing. You know? Um, and again, part of what this work has allowed me to do is when I'm in it, hopefully it doesn't take me to I'm out of it to have an appreciation for, okay, like what's being asked of you right now? Because this sucks. I don't prefer it. I'd rather have things chill, go out and play golf, whatever, and just be in flow of what I want to do, but I I'm I'm being asked, yeah, to to sit with stuff. And uh I think it's really hard. I can just speak for the male experience, but it's really hard for us to feel the things we're meant to feel. So we're not we're not taught that. You know, we fucking grind on, we get it done, just we're the rock. And all these things can be true. It just becomes much more uh it benefits everybody when when we can actually hold those things and feel the things we need to feel. And I think that's why a lot of us go to nicotine and caffeine and booze and cannabis and all these things, because it allows us to not feel and so I I say with a lot of my friends, I've gone through it plenty with this like dependency on these different substances that change our state. And I don't necessarily think of these things through like an addiction lens. I feel like they're just giving us an opportunity to not feel what we're meant to feel, and it's less about a chemical dependency and more about a lack of courage or vulnerability to sit with the things. And in a lot of cases, men just don't even know it's an option, they haven't been uh no one has demonstrated that for them in their lives as they don't even know it. Uh and again, so hopefully the book sheds a little bit of light on that. Like, again, I love I love the name of your podcast. Nothing is wrong. It's just doesn't mean it's always fun, but it it's these things need to happen for us to change and grow. We need to let go of these old layers that no longer serve us and get curious about what they are.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Yeah, that feeling piece. Uh I'm curious as you in your journey, because trading, obviously quite analytical. Uh for me lately, especially the last year or so. I mean, number one, because for the longest time I was, oh, I'm an overthinker. I am an overthinker. I just need to get out of my head. I didn't redirect that anywhere, like to the body and to my feeling. And there's there's definitely a lot of there's like some weird resistance or frustration or shame or guilt around now. I'm kind of bringing awareness to some of that numbness, like when I'm not contributing, when I'm not working, when I'm with family and not exactly feeling much at all. And that's gonna that's been a challenge because it's like, you know, I'm I'm I'm here, I'm like, what what can I feel? What can can help me, you know, be more here? And there's some quietness there, and and I'm starting to notice it thaw out a little bit. But did you experience that at all? Like when you started pursuing this, was there were there things that immediately came up to feel, or did it, you know, do you think the psychedelic work and other practices really accelerated that?

SPEAKER_01 35:46

I definitely knew that the psychedelic work and breath work, and uh I went to a few silent, uh week-long silent meditations and and and and really just got curious about all these things astrology, numerology, human design. Like I I just wanted to be able to look at all the different lenses of my existence. Yeah, one of the biggest challenges, I love you you brought this up because one of the things I kept running into was as I was doing the work and I would come back from ceremony and I'd be in integration, and I would notice things changing, and my relationship with my wife changing, and then I would get back into an old pattern, and and we would have some tension, my wife and I, and then I I would beat myself up like, when are you ever gonna figure this out? When are you ever gonna like, come on, man, like you were doing well, and now you're right back where you started. It's such a challenging process that if I could give anyone advice through my own experience, we're we're trying like I had a friend explain it to me. You're running a 10-minute mile. You're putting in all this work, now you're running an 8 30, now you're running an eight-minute mile. You're still not running a four-minute mile, but you've come so far from where you were that like let's look at the progress. And when you step back into an old pattern, it's just information that it's still there. So maybe that's something to put a little bit more focus on on how do I show up for my wife when she comes to present her needs so that I'm not feeling like I did something wrong. That's not her language. That's my like, oh no, have I done something wrong? Am I in trouble? You know, like kind of like an eight-year-old's mindset. And so now when that stuff comes up and I'm a feel like a little off, I kind of give a little chuckle to myself, like, oh, there you go again.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

And it's like I try to bring a little humor because I'm doing the best I can, just like everybody else.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

And I have grown a lot and I have revealed a lot of these blind spots, but I'm always going to be doing that. And so for me to think that there aren't going to be any more blind spots, silly. And so when they come up and I get into one of these little patterns, it's just information for me. Like, oh, this is one to work on. But I think it's very easy for us who want to do things right. We want to get to the end of the task, whatever it is. We need to give ourselves a lot of grace. And I think that's been one of the biggest shifts I've felt over the last year or so is just seeing, like truly seeing that this is just a journey that I'm here to learn about myself. And the more information, the more things that can reveal parts of me that I'm not seeing, amazing. And just try to have fun with it, be curious, and know that it's it's ongoing until I'm not here anymore. But I think that's we could put a lot of pressure on ourselves to be better. And I think just creating so much of awareness around these things can be challenging because it brings up all these things that we didn't know we were maybe needing to heal or let go of. Um, but without the awareness, like we're just going through our lives thinking we're doing it exactly how it's meant to be done. And I think as we start to awaken, there is that tension, you know, that midlife opportunity to to grow into other parts of ourselves that are more the legacy piece while carrying the gifts of that resume world.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Yeah, beautiful. I think the the curiosity you bring to all these practices is so key because uh it can very quickly, for me, it very quickly turned into just a filter for, hey, what else is wrong? What else needs to be fixed? And the way you're describing, I mean, there's a million practices out there, right? There are so many options. And going at it with curiosity, uh, and I think anchoring to what's getting in the way right now, not I mean, I one of my mentors calls it rummaging. Like, let's not go rummage for stuff that's wrong if it's not wrong, you know?

SPEAKER_01 40:47

Uh but yeah, we're we're good at making ourselves wrong. Really good. And as you said earlier, you know, you can be very much in your head and overthinking. Like I identify with that, certainly a lot more in the past. And I didn't have a ton of curiosity. Things were very black and white for me. That was how I was brought up, that's how my mind was oriented, it made sense. And then as I started to get curious or realize that I didn't need to have a position on everything. In fact, I didn't need to have a position on anything besides my own experience. And even that is my subjective experience. And as I got into that, I started to let go of the kind of the intellectual kind of the overpowering nature of that that the mind can bring. Um, you know, the classic that the mind is a wonderful servant and a terrible master. And I think getting, like I love that framework because as I've stepped deeper into this work, you know, I would say even two years ago I was at a medicine ceremony and I was having a really difficult time. It was like I would say the most challenging um slash terrifying experience I've had. And I I kind of came out of the the space with with one of the sitters.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Yeah, just like I just it just doesn't make sense. I don't I don't understand. I don't get it. I don't get it. And finally he said, Can I offer you a piece of advice?

SPEAKER_01 42:35

And then like he's like trying to figure it all out and it didn't necessarily land in that moment, but about a year later, it all made sense. And the reason I bring it up is if things aren't gonna make sense when I get real curious about the way things are going, they don't make sense in an intellectual sense. It's just there's such like our reality is governed by laws of existence that are so beyond my comprehension. And I think, you know, my own framework growing up, everything made sense. And I think that's how we're we're brought up, where we, you know, kind of indoctrinated into this system, and this is how it all works. And as we start to peel back some of these things that aren't true, it leads to other things that aren't true, and it can be very overwhelming to try to make all these things make sense. And so just stop trying to figure it all out for me and get curious, be in the wonder, be in the I mean, really just be in the mystery of what the fuck this is. Because if you think you can explain it, you you don't get it. It is so fucking wild. And so when I can just really kind of rest into that, like holy shit. You're not stay there too much either, because you gotta get shit done, but but really just remember there's no way for me to understand this. And really try to trust what I feel, much like we did when we were young babies, and you know, once upon a time, we really had access to that intuition. And I think this work allows us, particularly as men, because women are are much better, they're much more intuitive, and I think they hold on to it uh much better than men do. You know, a lot of our programming comes in and we we override the feeling with the analytical mind. Uh and you know, you brought up trading, yeah. Like I was a trader for 18 years, like you, who's good at math. And actually what made me good at trading was was when it got hectic in there, it wasn't so much that I was doing math faster than everyone. I just had a feeling about this trade was good, this trade wasn't, and I didn't always get it right, but it was ultimately when it when the when the shit hit the fan, I relied on my intuition more so than anything else. And so there's an element of that that I've kind of recognized, you know, post-trading as I've gotten into this work. It's like, oh, when when I was guided by that, it was so much easier. And so I really tried to trust that now. Whether it's uh meeting someone for a coffee or doing a podcast or whatever is the invitation, the mind comes on first, and it's like it gives its yeses and no's, and it's like that's all fucking noise. Like, do I really want to do this? And if it's yes, then I know exactly why. And if it's no, I may need to get curious about why is it that this is a no? And then now I have the ability to say no and speak clearly about why, without making up some excuse that maybe is partially true, but not really. Uh, and so this whole idea of, you know, I love the the four agreements and uh Domigu Ruiz's work, but it's it's really can I be impeccable with my word? And I've only gotten to a point where I'm much better at that because I know who I am. And in knowing who I am, I know what I want, I know what feels right, and I know how to say no with clarity and not the distortion of like a weird message that I've sent out plenty of times when it's not absolutely true. You know, so really just getting clear and clean on the response back, and I've I'll rewrite them a few times with less words, like, what am I trying to say? And so it can be challenging. But it also it, you know, I think I've gotten over the fact that uh I'm gonna hurt someone's feelings. Like, that's not true. Um and what people really appreciate, I believe, because I really appreciate it, I appreciate it when someone's direct with me. If it's a no and they're direct, like I fucking love that. I maybe would love it to have been a yes. But the no I received, like, got it, thank you. And and all those men and women in the past that have done that for me, they were just like, I feel like planting little seeds in me, like, this is how you this is how you're impeccable. This, like, do this. And it took me so long to be able to do it. Um, you know, I have friends be like, oh, he's so short with his responses.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

It's like I just appreciate that he doesn't give a fuck. And he's done a dick about it, but he doesn't care.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

He's just this is who he is. You know, I've had some friends that have they've just always known who they are. And I I really admired that and just wondered if I'd ever have the ability to do that. Um, but I feel like I've I've gotten to a place where I I feel like, yeah, I do that in my own way now. Maybe not as uh as abrupt, you know, and terse with the response. I still, you know, have a little bit more love in there, I would say. But that's perfect. You know, that works for me.

unknown 48:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

It is so funny to think. I mean, even the smallest stuff, when it's a no, this immediate jump to like, what are we gonna tell them about the re to justify this no? It's exhausting.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Exhausting.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

Yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

Oh uh because then you know, a lot of times for me, I would give it the maybe response and push it off. And that's just the hanging over your head. Versus it's sometimes it's difficult. Sometimes it's someone you know pretty well, and they want, hey, let's get together, it's been a while. Like, I I don't want to. Like, I I'll I mean I like hanging out with you, but right now that is so not a priority, and and that's the part that I still struggle with.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

You know, I got a few of those that are outstanding right now that I'm like, how do I how do I say no? Because I I I kicked out the maybes just to buy a little time because I I I don't have a good answer for that. You know, those are like the the more Jedi level kind of responses that I I'm still uh still in the dojo working on.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

My wife calls me out on those all the time. Oh, how so? So uh are you familiar with do you know Mark England in Lifted? Oh yeah, Mark's been on the podcast a couple of times. Yeah, huge fan of Mark, yeah. Oh, hell yeah. Uh I guess I'm not surprised by that at all. Yeah. So I've been, you know, studying with them for the last year or so, and you know, he calls it soft talk. Probably, maybe, possibly, think, might, feels like, sorta like, you know, one day. And uh I do that all the time. I mean, I my wife's like, hey, you know, XYZ, birthday part, whatever. I'm like, yeah, maybe or pa like it, it just it keeps you from making a commitment to yourself and to other people. And it when you start, I mean, Mark has an inlifted has the soft talk challenge, they've got a piece of paper you can print out. And he gave me a wooden I have a wooden yeah, I got one in my podcast studio. Yeah. Love it, love it, yeah. It's great. I mean, and it's like holy, holy shit. You know, when you start first start to notice these things, how often you're doing it with with yourself and with other people, even in your own head. It's constant.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

Yeah, and for you, the the the beauty is you get to practice with your wife, like that's a safe space to do that, you know, where you get to say, I don't really want to go to that, or whatever it is, right? Versus, you know, with with friends, because it's a little it can be a bit challenging. I mean, unless they're close friends, then you could be honest with them. But the ones that are like just outside that out inner circle, it's yeah, maybe they're trying to build a relationship and you'd like to, but just like not right now. Maybe in six months, there's like a different flow where it's like, yeah, let's let's do this. Yeah. But I I think, you know, in this what I found, I had a really difficult time with boundaries. Um I was prone to saying yes to things that I didn't really want to do, but I wanted to be a good guy. I wasn't necessarily working a job while we were here in Austin, so I had a lot of free time, and oh, I can give my time here and I can do it. It it just really came out of not knowing who I was, is back what I was saying earlier, like just not really understanding, and so then still trying to be the good guy and show up for people. Uh it's funny. So I heard someone say the other day, I'm not interested in being a good guy, I want to be a good man. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's it. There's a fucking major difference, you know. I've spent a lot of my life trying to be a good guy, and you know, trying to be a good man as well, but like the good guy thing I think was leading, and now it's like I just want to be a good man, and understanding who I am has allowed those boundaries to really tighten up and not be so leaky. Um and then you just become more trustworthy. You know, I've got I got a I gotta I got a really close friends, and I've got, you know, one buddy love him, love him, love him, but he's terrified to um challenge me. And I got my other buddies who don't give a fuck. And so who do you think I'm gonna share the most intimate things with when I really need feedback?

SPEAKER_02 53:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

I mean it's not real feedback if it's only one affirmative every time.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

Yeah, and so you like in being honest with people, uh, as challenging as that can be, uh you know, you're you're building trust. And and even in my relationship with my wife Peyton, when she's seeing me spending time with this guy and a fucking guys who just, in her opinion, she's like, what are you doing? Why are you giving him your time? Like he's just trying to get something from you, or he he's it's very transactional, and I can maybe sense that, but again, I was just like not, you know, super clear on who I was, but she could see it. So she's seeing this lack of discernment, she's like, Well, you're not like super trustworthy. Not in the sense that she's afraid I'm gonna go do something with somebody, but the fact that like you don't really know who you are, so how you know how can you really be trustworthy? And I just started to recognize that, and I think, you know, I'm at a point now where I'm super discerning. And uh I think for those listening, when people want your honest opinion, man, they really want it. And um, that's how to deepen a relationship. Um, you know, I I I want to encourage this one friend. Like, I I kind of gotta let him know. Like, there's there's stuff that I'm not sharing because you don't call me out, you don't challenge me. Like, I need you to if you if you want this to deepen, because there's room for us to grow, like I need you to call me out on something that you don't agree with. I may not agree with you, but I need pushbacks. Like, this is what the brotherhood's for, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:09

Yeah, the relational aspect takes it to a whole nother level. I think uh I think my inner journey was confined to alone in a room for a long time. And it goes that I mean that limits it. I mean, our life is relational, you know. What else what else is it if it's not in relationship to others? And uh I went through Joe Hudson's course.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

Have you paid attention to his stuff? It's so funny. I was just with a group of brothers last week, and one of our guys, he does a lot of great work, has been working with Joe and his wife. Is that right? Yeah, and he's like, Holy shit, this guy and his wife are gangsters.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

Dude, you gotta you should uh get him on the on the show. He's it's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

Really?

SPEAKER_02 56:59

It's he's got like live coaching on YouTube and stuff, like this dude, but he's what's cool is he started, you know, he he he breaks it up into three awakenings, right? The head awakening, the heart awakening, and the gut awakening. So like gut, more nervous system or kundalini, whatever you want to call it, uh energy work, you know, that sort of level, heart emotion-based, obviously, feeling based, emotion-based, and then head, which is, you know, that more traditional, you know, Buddhist path or whatever you you want to call it. Uh and it's cool because his journey was the first, you know, he spent like seven years or something like that really focused on just just necked up conscious evolution of your mind only.

unknown 57:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 57:51

And then his journey with his wife led to the emotional component. And so it's the way he brings and and the way he reads, he's he's amazing. But, anyways, all his work is relational. It's like you're you're on with somebody else, it's eye contact, it's holding all these things in relationship to another person, which I mean, it was like this is his intro course, it's like the connection course, it's called. And uh, it was like three weeks of two days a week of a couple hours, and you're going through exercises with a partner, you're verbalizing Pain, they're challenging you to like make judgments about the person in front of you, and it is freaking cool, man. Like uh it was it was really hard, but so intimate and so cool and and and powerful. Um, I don't even remember why I started talking about that.

SPEAKER_01 58:42

Well, I'm curious, like, how did you so you how did you end up launching the podcast? Like, what was you know your journey to get to questioning all these things? You know, I mean I I see it very similar to you know the journey that I've taken in like so how did you what was your you know kind of entry into this?

SPEAKER_02 59:03

Oh man, um so I have a health and fitness coaching company that I've been running for like five years now. And I got into health and fitness in high school. Um, I was super delayed like growing up, like puberty-wise, and that's kind of what drew me to the gym, and then it just turned into this obsession nutrition, fitness, and then college, you know, majored in finance, just like shutting people out, optimize, optimize, become the best. And I don't know, something cracked pretty quickly for me. Like I went and got a job in wealth management, and I was just like, fuck this. I I, you know, I even if the money was, you know, I was like, fuck this. So I I actually went and became a fireman because I was like, I want to do something. I mean, really, I think I just wanted to work out and have it jive with health and fitness. Uh and then I started online coaching. And, you know, early on, I think I mean, I started social media, things like that. And I think that the coaching just turned into another replacement after I got in really good shape. I was, you know, I wasn't very connected with other people. I was just obsessing, so I wouldn't go out, I wouldn't go do things, I wouldn't eat certain foods. And then I think that kind of got replaced by look how smart I am online, you know, look at my content, look at what I know. Uh and then I started helping people, and I really quickly realized like it's like it isn't about I mean, yes, people are very misled by information with nutrition and how to get in shape. So, yes, there is some refining and like clarity that needs to be provided, but it's it's it's shit going on, you know? Um and then that was like at the same time. Um, but I think I mean I I can't talk about this without saying I did a five MEO journey a couple years ago. And I've heard you talk about that. Uh holy shit. So that and that and that kicked off a a deep year for me. I mean, I I had scaled the business a ton in the first two years. There was this hint of like, I'm not providing as much psychological and and mindset support to these people as I could be, but I I think I kept that push down. And then that journey saw a lot of these patterns even even further, and and that's kind of what kicked it off. Um it's funny to me because I've thought about this and I'm sure you've you've seen it like I can't count the amount of times I've heard people talk about psychedelics and be like, it's not about the psychedelics, man. You're you know, you gotta do the work. And it's like, okay, but five minutes ago you were just talking about how you've done 150 ceremonies or what, you know, whatever. And it's like, I mean, it's just hilarious to me because it's like I can't deny that that that five MeO fricking cracked open so, so much. And yeah, looking back, oh my god, all the hard work has been since then, but holy shit, did that help turn the ship a few degrees, you know? Yeah. So so, anyways, like, you know, this is kind of right now, it's uh I'm just doing it to talk to people that that I I want to connect with and learn from. Um, and we'll see where it goes. Uh, you know, the the main thing is is uh health and fitness coaching. And um, so yeah, I think you're like my probably 10th or so. Yeah. And uh dude, it's already been a challenging practice with turn trying to turn on this mask, trying to get the validation, and then also sitting back and being like, hey, just let this person share their amazing wisdom and not try to be knowing or smart. And it's been a fun new journey, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:16

Well, you did a hell of a job today with with that, doing exactly that. And that's uh I appreciate that because that's how I want to be in my podcast too. Like just kind of roll the ball out and you know, go off what's being shared and what's alive for the guests. Um and I still do it for the same reasons that you're doing it right now. I just I just want to meet cool people, I want to learn and ask questions, get curious about what they have to share. And other people listen, great, but it's first and foremost, it's it's for my own curiosity and and as you know, I'm what six plus years in, there's something I think that happens with, you know, what certainly happened for me, my ability to just listen and follow the threads of what's kind of most interesting. And I think that's one of the greatest benefits of having your podcast, you know, having your own podcast, is that you're called into deeper listening and deeper presence, especially when you have the orientation that you have, where it's like, I don't need to show everybody how smart I am. I want to give space for the guests to share what they're here to share. And then it's just like tuning into that. And you know, like I've gone through periods where I've had a bunch of questions prepared, and and now I unless I really know nothing about the person, which is super rare, I usually am friends with the person that's that's coming on, or I've had some sort of relationship. Um I don't I don't do any prep. I just really want to talk about what is alive for them and ultimately for me on that given day. And there'll be some things about their work that I'll definitely want to highlight, but ultimately let's just have a conversation where we're just two people in the pocket talking about whatever, and if we're really connected, it's not gonna matter what we talk about. It'll be cool, interesting, insightful, honest, vulnerable. Uh no one's the expert, and just people sharing their own experiences. And um, yeah, the podcast has been an amazing place for me to really get to know myself better.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:52

Yeah. That's cool, man. I it's uh I mean, around that time, that 2024 was definitely. The darkest period of just like what the hell is going on? What am I doing? What have I been doing? That's when I found your show. I don't know, I don't know how I found it, but just so many uh amazing insights I've gotten from it. So yeah, I mean, definitely, definitely one I've been as I listen to you now, it's total change in listening now. Like there's a consciousness to how is Cal bringing up questions? How is he sitting with you know, like the the engagement of it? But either way, um yeah, dude. Uh what one note I have written down here that has come up a few times that I I'd love to hear your current take on is just that question of who am I? I mean, it you know, it really I think nothing distills it down better than that. Let's be more who we are, be become more us. Uh and it seems to me it's it's more of a question in a state, or it's more of a state of being than a question that has an answer to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:03

Does that seem Yeah. Yeah. I I mean, I I really for me. I know that for certainly for like a lot of my friends, uh I'm I'm kind of like the tip of the spear that's that's going out and trying different things. It could be psychedelics, it could be different practices, working with different somatic healers. You know, I'm just kind of trying it all. Um and so I know I'm just I'm curious and I'm I want to be on the kind of front end of of trying these different things out. But ultimately, like I'm again, I'm like, I'm here to like uncover my blind spots, um, and then just show up. I mean, really just with impeccability, just to the the more clear I get on who I am. Um Yeah, I kinda I guess to show up as a bridge for people who haven't explored these different things, and and whether I talk about it on the podcast or talking about it in our men's group or however, need to go out and then bring back what what I found on the frontier, so to speak. And so I really want to be a guide/slash explorer in that way, uh, and then certainly bring on people that have done the work that I haven't done to bring that into people's awareness, and then if it resonates for me, I'll go try it. It's a really just always trying to stay in the the mystery of of this whole experience. It's a just soup just try to stay super curious, not wedded to any you know, ideology or dogma or any of that. Just get like be open, open to what's out there and change my mind if if new information is revealed.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:12

So much more fun than it's so much easier.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:18

That fix me meant, oh my god, because it it's like I'd find some new, you know, it's like, oh, bioenergetics. What a cool practice. I I'd go into that. Oh my god, I'm so broken, and I have to fix. And now it's just like, oh, that sounds super cool. Like, let's just see where it goes. Let's try it out. See, you know, it's it's it's enjoyable instead of like anxiety provoking. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:46

Uh there are plenty of opportunities for us to find out where we're not well, whether it's through doing blood work or doing some, you know, biofield work, and there's so many different ways. And to your point, I think like finding those things out is great. And when things aren't optimal, awesome. That means you have an opportunity to upgrade. It's just an opportunity. If things are working great, awesome. What's the next thing? You know, but if that's if that's our singular focus is fixing ourselves, which I can I can speak to my experience of feeling like for a number of years I needed to be fixed, it's never gonna happen. There's we're we're we're always gonna have things that uh are suboptimal, fine. You know, I think one of the things that we really struggle with as a society, I would guess, but even in particular for men, is contentment. You know, that feels like the opposite of achieving and providing. But for me, it's like, why keep, you know, why be on the hamster wheel the entire time? You know, hop on it when it's necessary, and then kind of rest into what's been created and what's going well, and the things that are your areas of genius or your gifts. Um, but I think uh it doesn't really vibe with our culture of grinding it out and and you know this achievement-based, you know, how we're we're really put put those people up on a pedestal, the ones who have been the most kind of successful in the traditional sense.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:36

But it doesn't need to be that way, in in my experience. But you know, you're fighting against a lot of uh what's out there. Certainly we see it on social media and Instagram, right? Like people trying to help people, great. But if that's all you're seeing, um I I ended up on following just even like a lot of friends that that were having that consistent message of like coaching, and it's like I'm just not in a season. If if if that's in my feed, I'm gonna intuitively I'm going to think of ways that I'm not optimal. And I feel really good, and I'm not being ignorant to like what maybe needs a little more attention, but I just try to like carefully curate like I like funny shit on Instagram, a few conspiracy things in there too, but I try not to do too many because then the feed gets gets into that. But I like to laugh mostly, and it's like I had I had a friend, he was on the podcast, I don't know, a year and a half ago, and my guy was putting out he puts out old clips all the time, and he put his clip out, and I I didn't follow him anymore because he was very like just the stuff he was putting out was amazing, but I just I just wasn't in a season of wanting that. Um meanwhile, I had almost 2,000 people I was following, and I got it down to 300, so there was like a lot of cuts I had to make. Um and it was nothing personal, but he uh he kind of butthurt because he went to like he was gonna repost it, but he didn't be some kind of weird reason. It was a clip of mostly him, but he didn't like the way he looked on the video. It was kind of weird. He's like, I don't know if it's gonna get as much traction on my feed. And I'm like, You're fucking way overthinking this, dude. I don't care if you post it or don't post it. You know, like I don't know who like, you know, does the collaboration or not, but no one has ever reached out to me when they haven't and said, hey man, I would do it, but I'm not gonna do it. It was it was all weird. And he's like, Oh, you didn't even follow me. And I was just like, Yeah, man, like I would just I gave him like the reason, like nothing personal, but I kind of told him what I just told you, and and then he he unfollowed me. It's like, what's in the lame? Like, I guess we weren't really I mean, we weren't that close anyway, but I'm like, bro, what are you doing? Like, you are just way overthinking this thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:13

Yeah, that's hilarious. I mean, yeah, I'm at this point, especially with the in lifted stuff and really getting just so much of my practice lately has just been what can I feel in my body? Where you you get on Instagram and like you said, this this knowing, this drive to know and narrate. I'm just like words, words, words, words, words, like less words, please. Like less words, because yeah, I feel you. And my ex Twitter, my Twitter X feed is definitely more my shadow side of this pursuit, where it's like if I scroll through my X feed, it's like, oh, there's a nutrient deficiency I'm missing, and another supplement I need to add. And it's just like I pull back and I'm like, I didn't even know I had all of a sudden I have 10 problems I didn't even know existed until five minutes ago. You know, it's like it's amazing once you start to realize how much that's shifting your your state. And yeah, I but it is cool when it's like, hey, I can get on there. I love watching videos of people like fucking around in public and just like messing with people. It is so funny. Like people are hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:26

Um Yeah, and like and yeah, it's it we can we can be be unconscious of what the feed is showing us. I mean, I've gone through seasons of following a lot of conspiracy stuff, and when you start watching the like they'll obviously just feed you more, and then what ultimately happens is I start to see it everywhere. It's like anything, right? And so if that's what I want, if like the month of April, like I'm just going into that season, okay, but it I've gotta be really careful about what I click on and who I follow. Uh, because ultimately, like right now, like I just like the funny shit. You know? Some heartwarming stuff too, mostly just the funny stuff. It's just I want to go on there, laugh a little bit, and then kick off.

unknown 1:16:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:22

Yeah. Um dude, what's the uh what's on the tip of the spear for you right now? What uh what lights you up that you've been into lately?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:34

Yeah. Ooh, that's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:38

Um I will say this, my wife and I just went to Japan to go back a couple weeks ago. Like, I can't wait to go back. I've never been there before. It's amazing. We're in Tokyo, Kyoto, and a couple other places that were a little kind of out of the city, out of the urban life, but uh I really I want to do a little bit of traveling, a little more traveling this year than I've done in the past. So I want to go back to Japan in the fall. Um there's a chance I might go to Colombia, Ecuador to do maybe a little bit of medicine work with some beautiful elders. Um and so yeah, I'm I'm curious about stepping a little bit deeper into the medicine work. Not in the sense of like doing a bunch of medicine work, but really tracking those elders um that really hold such an incredible container. Uh, and I've had the the great fortune over the last couple of years to sit with, you know, the best of the best in a sense, you know, like really just special humans. And so there's a lot for me to be learned uh in those spaces and in listening to their stories, and uh so very humbled in those experiences, and um, I would say that's that's really alive for me right now. You know, I've done a handful of medicine work over the last eight years. Um Yeah, and it's been it's been really powerful. Um so I'd say that those are a couple of the things.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:29

Nice. Yeah. What's uh if you don't mind sharing, what's like your what medicine has been most I'm sure they're all different in different ways, but what's top of mind as far as the most impactful and transformative?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:46

Yeah. I would say that I had some really beautiful experiences on Aya, ayahuasca. Um very kind of profound, and then I had sat with 5MEO a few times, and I what I realized when I sat with it the last time about a year ago, uh, I hadn't gotten to a point where that everybody talks about. So the first couple times, like I I got to a certain place, but not the breakthrough full melting into oneness, you know, really for me it gave me the felt experience that I am held. This thing is there's so much out of your control, there's so much out of my control. So just surrender to, you know, what is. Uh, and so that was that kind of took that concept from an intellectual understanding to like, oh, I know what this feels like. And the mind had no place in that experience, as I'm sure you can remember. Uh so 5MEO was was really beautiful. And then I really enjoyed sitting with Wachuma. Yeah, that was yeah, really gentle, but there's I would say I don't get as much um post-ceremony integration work, I would say, from the Wachuma. Or I haven't yet, uh, as much as I have with with ayahuasca, but I would say those are kind of the ones that I would say, you know, I lean towards. Yeah, how about you besides 5MU? Have you sat with anything else?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:38

So uh I had done a couple mushroom ceremonies prior to the 5MO. I was also on an SSRI for those. So that's been a whole journey for me. Like I went on that mid-20s. Um, I ended up coming off for the 5M. That's a whole can of worms. I'm I'm gonna try to find somebody uh to come on the podcast to talk about that because there's an extra element of people get withdrawals, there's like a lot of health impacts from it. Um so, anyways, so so anyways, they can blunt an experience quite a bit just because it's messing with your serotonin receptors and stuff. Uh the 5MEO I came off of it prior to that. Um and then about six months after 5MEO, I did a series of five ketamine treatments. Dude. I mean, compared to, and I imagine this is kind of I've never done ayahuasca, and um with the mushroom ceremonies being blunted, I imagine this is like a milder version of what those can be. But after that, five MEO, obviously, the five MEO, you're not really working with any ego contents, let's say. Because it doesn't exist. It's so which, like to your point of that felt sense of of going there, even though it's like, you know, is that experience true for me right now? Of course not. But that glimpse, I mean, gosh, I'm like, you know, of course, there's so many factors in in getting a healthy experience with these things. But that being said, I'm like, oh my god, if everybody just I mean, it cuts through the uh obviously. I mean, that's a whole episode, but anyways, after that, you know, I kind of came out of that. It was my first like true, like deep experience.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:44

I dude, you went right for the right from Mount Everest, damn, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:51

So, like, I mean, it was six months of it was it was tough, and then the ketamine was like, so it's obviously more mild, um, but holy shit, those journeys were as far as working with patterns and ego contents and or whatever you want to call it. I mean, I hadn't looked into any parts work or anything like that before that, and then I learned about it after, and looking back at my experiences, it was like it was it was really, really helpful as far as working with childhood things and more stories and and patterns. Uh so yeah, man. Um, those are those are mine. I I definitely um feel called to back to back to it, but you know, with the eight-month-old and and things right now, and that I mean, grant very understandably that destabilizing 5MEO experience was a little destabilizing for my wife as well. So it's uh yeah, it's under sensitive uh conversation because you enough, it it'll cut through, it'll show you some shit real quick.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:12

Yeah, I definitely had uh as I started my journey, uh my wife had her concerns because things were changing, and she's like, What's that mean? Well, who who are you gonna turn into, right? Uh, which I didn't have the answer to, but I've also I've had extensive work with ketamine and yeah, that's a very similar experience in that the stories that we're believing become very we become very aware of them, or I became very aware of the stories, and then as a contrast to that, I became very aware of what was actually true within me, and it like kind of turns off the mind in some ways, and it allowed my heart, my soul, whatever of like my essence to become super clear. So it really just kind of quieted, it almost like took the brain offline in some ways, and so I found it extremely useful because it doesn't there's not a it's a little bit more on the nose, yeah, of like what to your point, you're using that with parts work, it just identifies things pretty clearly of stuck points and stories and um where other psychedelics can be more like what the fuck was that? I can maybe pull a few things from that, but um yeah, I feel like it's it's almost like more of like an uh instructions manual for moving forward with kind of identifying these yeah, stuck points.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:57

Yeah. Yeah, that's actually where this podcast name came from. One of those sessions. I mean, that that pattern of something's wrong with me, the shame or the the the badness, the I have something to hide. It was a beautiful like five sessions because it was like one of the first ones. There was a very strong experience of the exhaustion of trying to keep things down. And it was like this experience of being in the depths and just like whack-amole of just nonstop. Oh, we can't, ooh, we can't have that come up, we can't share that, we can't, you know, just controlling. And with that, also just some just letting go of the experience in general, which is was so hard for me. Like, yeah, hey, just let it happen. Like, we don't need to make sense of this. We don't need like you said earlier, we don't need to wanting to have, ooh, like I went into this and I discovered that this thing that happened, and it's like just let it go, just be in it. And then uh one of them actually was like a profound, you know, uh like just total, you know, feeling of oneness, which was wild to me um compared to the other experiences. Like it was so strong. But anyways, on the last of the five, the first few, there was this point I would get to in this, you know, uh this image of of the depths of me of that we wouldn't we wouldn't open. Like we wouldn't go fully down. And then the last of the five, I went down there and it was like oh my god, there's nothing. Like I was like this expectation of, hey, there's something in here that you you know you can't share, you can't handle. And then it was this beautiful just Oh my god, nothing's wrong with you. Like, and it was it's so funny because all of those the most Simple phrases you hear in your life that they either hit or they don't. I came out of them with like you know, the I'm trying to think of a couple other, but that one was huge. Like nothing is wrong. But like truly feeling that nothing is wrong. And feeling it fully, like it's just been a pointer, like for me and a reminder, you know. Um so and and ketamine too. I mean, I think it's so it's way less daunting for people because I'm like, you know, I've told my parents, I've told, I'm like, hey, you should do some psychedelics. They're like, what the hell are you targeting?

SPEAKER_04 1:28:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:40

And uh, but I feel like ketamine is it's you know, you can go to a clan, like it's more approachable right now. So um, yeah, but what's interesting, I'm curious your thoughts on this. Uh, you know, after those five, I went back for like a like a couple months later, I did one at the same place. Then a few months after that. I mean it was kind of the last two. It was like there's not much else. I I my takeaway was like, I think I've gotten everything I've I've I've wanted to get from that medicine. Um, like kind of a closing of just hey, there's not much more exploration here.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:23

Yeah, I think that's great. I think it's common, and you know, we kind of get to these get through these kind of seasons, and you know, we're seeking, we're seeking some healing, and so we'll seek out different again, in this case, psychedelics. And then we just feel kind of complete. And for me, it's in those seasons where it's like, okay, now it's just time to play and put all this into practice and integrate. And then down the road, if I'm feeling a bit stuck and I don't know my way out, then I'll just trust the call that something is gonna present that will be like, yeah, I gotta go do that. That feels like the right thing, rather than okay, what's the next thing I'm gonna do? And you know, for me, I just try to trust that call. And a lot of people will talk about that. You'll know when it's time. I know you've probably heard that, and trust this and just trust your intuition on it. And if there's any hesitation, other than just general fear of the unknown of the experience, which is very common no matter how many times you've done it. Um, if there's no fear, then just trust that you're gonna get, you know, what you're meant to get. Uh but yeah, I'm not feeling particularly called to do medicine work right now. And if the opportunity presents for me to do it, some of the lighter work, you know, like a Wachuma, I'd be down. I don't think I'd yeah, I wouldn't want to sit with ayahuasca next month, but I could sit with Wachuma, you know, so I don't really want a completely blast it open experience which I can generally bring where Wachuma can be much gentler. Uh and I'm I'm curious about eboga at some point. It's just not quite ready for it, but I've had some friends that have had some just wow, yeah, amazing experiences there. So I'm still a few out there that I'm curious about, and I'll just wait for the the timing.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:52

Yeah, it's cool that uh it's just cool to hear the experience of people that have have done quite a bit of it. And it seems like most of the time, and you know, granted this might be survivorship bias, but most of the time the people that really explore these things tend to do less of it over time than more of it. Which is frickin' cool. Like what a beautiful I mean, yeah, it's fascinating stuff. Uh yeah, and I always try to keep that in mind. Like, I'm like some of these perspective shifts, you're it's so obvious looking back. And you it's hard to even relate to the state of mind before having that shift. Uh, but it's it it's so real at the time. Like uh it's so fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:44

Uh it's not until you start to embody it that you see like because again, it becomes such an intellectual thing, it all makes sense. Right. Like I get it, so why can't I do it? And then you're in the kind of pursuit of that, and then once you start to walk it and embody it, you're like, oh, it's much easier now. I have a felt sense, and again, I think that's the that whole journey to get it from your your intellect into your body is like it's the work in my experience, and it takes just continuing to show up with the prayer of whatever your prayer is at whatever your altar is that I'm here for this, and I want to know what I don't know, and with humility, and it's um you get on the other side of some of these things, you're like, oh god. I was making it so hard, but it was because I didn't really know. I knew about it, I didn't know it. And when you know it, it's that embodied experience, you know, the embodied experience that five MeO can give you of oh wow, I'm so held. Like, sure, I have free will or whatever, but like there's so little in my control, and that's beautiful because like in that experience, you're like, how could I have ever doubted this?

SPEAKER_02 1:34:14

That right there, like that really the feeling in that place where it's not just then, it was always, and all the times you thought you you weren't okay or you weren't whatever that's been super like so powerful to me because I I just think about that and I'm like at some point you know, well right now, but I'm just not realizing it. Whatever, like that's a whole other that's semantics. But at some point, like this moment too, this right now too, like you said earlier, you know, appreciating it when you're in it and you're you're forgetting or whatever words you want to use. Like just remembering that moment of this applies to it all. And there weren't moments I wasn't here, I was just so off, like except I forgot. Like that's the most awe-inspiring part to me is just trying to remember that like it's it it it creates your North Star.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:29

Yeah, the trust. Yeah, it's going back to that remembering. I agree that that's like we've forgotten for many different reasons. We've forgotten, and the experience of psychedelics can give us that that lens into what it felt like, what it looks like, whatever. And so then the you know, part of the work is to remember that when you're not in the medicine, as you're integrating and going back, when things feel really chaotic and hectic in your world, and you're anticipating, trying to sort out like what's coming down the line, and and a lot of times we are preparing for the worst, and so then that's in our field, versus when I look around right now, in this moment, we're in this physical space, like things are right. Yeah, my mind could easily turn to well, you gotta worry about this, and this is coming, and this is gonna right now, how am I? Great, okay. And then maybe you can drop into some of that feeling of being in the medicine. Amazing, but just the remembering of what that felt like, yeah, it's it's it can take you, it can get you back a piece of that that feels really good. You know, I don't feel like, you know, I did it a year ago, and as beautiful as the ceremony was, I don't know that I would do it next month either. Yeah, I don't know when I'll do it again. Um, you know, some of these other medicines like Wachuma, like I I am interested in deepening my relationship with it, understanding it more, like co-creating with the medicine. I think that's kind of the next path for me with some of these things. It's less. I mean, it's on some level, it's always about exploring like my my own self, but really I want to deepen the relationship so it's not like me just hopping on for the ride. It's me learning how to work with it. Um which is is I've I've felt m a little more of that, but I know there's a lot of a lot of room there, and I get curious about what that experience could be like.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:58

Yeah.

unknown 1:38:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:01

Amazing. Well, I've been asking every guest this question. You can give everyone a you get ten minutes with everyone on earth to to have them do something.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:14

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:16

It can be anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:18

Uh what would you have everyone do?

SPEAKER_01 1:38:25

Well, if it's recency bias with probably five MVOs.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:31

You know what's funny, you're the second guess that it said that out of like 10 million.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:37

I mean, it cuts through the bullshit. Yeah, it does. Um I actually don't know if I have a better answer than that.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:50

I think there's and I don't want to be misunderstood and and put out the message that everybody needs to do all these things. I don't believe that, right? Um But I think for a lot of people, myself included, there's such a hard, crusty shell of this avatar we've built, and we've put so much time and energy into creating uh our identity. And it's for me, it was only when I kind of dismantled that in many different ways, mostly through the the use of psychedelics was I able to remember like who who I am beneath that. Um and so I just think it it it can accelerate that growth, you know, in healing, but really the growth and understanding and getting to know ourselves and being able to see ourselves and hold that version of ourselves with such grace and care and non-judgment. I think it's one of the beautiful things that these medicines can do. So I really do think that that work is is important for a lot of people, and it's gotta be done the right way. I know that goes without saying maybe, but it's it's really the facilitation and um, you know, there's stuff to be learned from not proper facilitation too. I don't recommend it, but I I've had that and there's lessons in that as well. But but there's um we've been we've been told that these things are dangerous. And in some cases there is an element of that. But given our society's reliance on sugar and caffeine and nicotine and alcohol and fucking opioids, like what are we talking about? Like these are the safest things on the planet that change you for the better. So um, and it's amazing, there's a big, you know, I would say renaissance happening, but you know, obviously with maps and Rick Doblin, he's been doing this for 30 plus years. But now with President Trump, with Joe Rogan talking about pushing FDA um executive order through with regards to Ibogaine, like yeah, that shit really works. It changes people. Um so hopefully that's the beginning of more to come.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:48

Yeah. Well said. I mean, God, the limited data we have, it's yeah, like you said, alcohol? Are we like yeah, like you said, what are we talking about? It's not even remotely cloud.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:03

Uh and these are these are part of the things, right? These are in that basket of like as you start to awaken to some of these inconsistencies, like this doesn't vibe. All these things are good that have been in our society, and these things are bad. And yet when you have the experience of both, you're like, what are we even talking about? But they keep pushing that narrative. And there's a lot more that comes with just that piece, but in the awakening of you know, things that simply aren't true that we've been told are true. And the more courage and curiosity I feel like we can have in exploring those things, it allows us to let go of this identity we've built because it really only hampers us, it puts us in a box, our own box. Um, but as we start to let go of those things, we get, I think we get to the essence. I get got to the essence of like who I am. I'm still doing some of those things, but I don't identify with them like I did in the past. And uh in the beginning, it's pretty terrifying because that's all you know is this identity. And as it gets peeled away or blown away, and you're in this kind of dark night of the soul. Finally, you get to the point where you feel so free from not having to be that thing, you know, because it is a role versus like an essence.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:41

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:42

All right. Well, I'll uh I'll throw obviously the great unlearn host of the great unlearn. I'll throw that below. Is there anything else you have going on that you you want to shout out or share?

SPEAKER_01 1:43:52

No, that's it. The podcast, obviously, the book um that again should be available for uh uh it should be back in stock. It is in stock. I don't know. They've got some glitchy thing going on right now because I got the books a while ago. Anyway, we'll figure that out. But yeah, just the book and um the podcast. Awesome. Yeah, appreciate it. Yeah, I'll post that below too.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:17

All right, see you all next week. Thanks, Cal.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:20

All right, thanks, Brooks.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:25

Cal's podcast is the great unlearn, where you can find on all podcast platforms. And then his new book, Unlearn, Letting Go of Who You Never Were to Become Everything You Already Are, is available on Amazon, and I will link that below as well. And as always, if this conversation resonated with you, share it with one person who needs to hear it. That's how this show grows. I will see you next week.