22 REO - Exploring the Art and Future of AI

Exploring the Art and Future of AI with REO

Dive into a thought-provoking conversation with REO, an innovative artist blending traditional skills with cutting-edge AI technology. We explore his background, views on digital art, NFTs, and the ethical implications of AI in creativity. Whether you're an artist, tech enthusiast, or curious mind, this episode offers insights into the evolving landscape of art and technology.

Key Topics

• REO’s artistic journey from music production to AI art
• The influence of traditional methods in AI-driven creativity
• How NFTs are reshaping ownership and monetization for artists
• The concept of art as performative versus static pieces
• Ethical challenges and scams in the AI and crypto space
• The role of AI as a tool for deeper self-expression and storytelling
• Future potential for AI in film, series, and immersive experiences
• Balancing innovation with responsibility in AI development

Timestamps

00:00 - Introduction and REO’s artistic background

03:13 - Transition from music to AI art tools such as After Effects and 3D software

04:35 - The entry of AI into REO’s work through NFTs and digital art experimentation

05:16 - The evolution of AI tools from novelty to powerful creative aids

06:09 - The impact of the NFT craze on digital ownership and artist royalties

10:08 - Reimagining ownership, royalties, and fan engagement through blockchain

11:08 - The importance of ideas over tools in AI art

12:38 - REO’s process for creating art, combining experimentation with intentionality

13:21 - The significance of sampling, borrowing, and influence in art creation

15:37 - How audience perception shapes the meaning of art

17:43 - The power of art to evoke conversation and social awareness

19:09 - REO’s current work's thematic focus on societal issues and symbolism

23:35 - The democratization of art tools and the new role of ideas

24:38 - Building relationships with AI as a creative partner

27:13 - Significance of imagery, fire symbolism, and storytelling in REO’s work

28:07 - Deep dive into "Love Again" and its themes of passion and relationships

33:24 - The tool as a reflection of human intent, not inherently good or bad

34:13 - Ethical responsibility and intentional use of AI in art

37:24 - The evolving landscape of influence, originality, and inspiration

39:39 - The illusion of originality and the importance of tools

41:19 - REO’s "Dream Feed" project on dreams, subconscious, and storytelling

48:50 - Challenges in safeguarding digital art and preventing scams

51:07 - Future projects, potential film franchises, and storytelling ambitions

57:27 - The excitement and fears surrounding AI’s trajectory

60:36 - The importance of control, ethics, and avoiding dystopian outcomes

62:47 - The emotional and sensory power of AI-created experiences

66:54 - Nostalgia for limitations in art and the search for imperfections

68:45 - Predictions for NFT 2.0: social integration, fan investment, and blockchain empowerment

72:29 - The importance of shared experiences, community, and co-creation in future art forms

76:23 - REO’s focus on storytelling, film stars, and legacy projects

79:01 - The collaboration of traditional craftsmanship and AI speed

82:07 - How AI enhances self-discovery and artistic authenticity

83:15 - Closing thoughts and contact info for REO

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to ShootYZ. Today's guest sits right at the intersection of art and technology, a space that raises one of the biggest questions in the creative world right now. Does the word AI need to come before the title artist? Or is that distinction already outdated? Rio is at the forefront of this conversation. What makes his perspective so grounded and so necessary is that his work didn't begin with AI. Long before these tools existed, he was deep in the craft, building visuals through programs like After Effects and Photoshop, putting in the kind of time, repetition, and discipline that defined digital artistry for the last two decades. And now he's brought that same foundation into a new era, using AI not as a shortcut, but as an extension, a tool to enhance ideas, push boundaries, and explore creative territory that wasn't previously accessible. The same way we've always used technology to write, to design, to imagine more clearly, and to execute more freely. This conversation isn't just about AI. It's about authorship, evolution, and what it really means to create in a time where the tools are changing faster than the definitions. After listening, you might find yourself answering that question for yourself. Please enjoy this conversation with Rio. First of all, I just want to say, Rio, I really appreciate your time. And um I love your work, man. I really, really love your work. AI has been uh a focus of conversation for the last two years. And um, you know, when it comes to AI artists, I don't know, you're whenever anybody doubts that it's an art, I always send them to your page because I'm like, well, check this out because I think I think you're gonna um I think you're gonna change your mind. What is your uh artistic background before AI?

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Um I've had a very long background. I mean, I started out drawing as a kid, breakdancing, was super into music. Um, but I I mean I was always drawing since since I could, you know, walk. Um and then I moved into the music uh industry. I was a music producer for many, many years. Uh produced for like Beyonce, Little Wayne, Bruno Mars. And while I was producing, I'd always be like, oh, your album cover should be this, or your music video treatment should be like this. Or would it be cool if you and I was always creative directing kind of unknowingly? And and you know, the artist would be like, Man, that is dope. Or can you can you make that for me? And sometimes I'd like to sit in Photoshop and make it, and um, and then eventually, like just through the industry, I I got into a lawsuit and was like, man, I I kind of discovered myself and I bought a camera, I started messing with 3D software, started using After Effects. So I've had like a whole career at successful things outside of AI. I mean, just in the last three years, three, four years, I've been using it more. But I think that's why I don't feel the guilt that maybe someone else has felt because I put in more than 10,000 hours, you know, in each of these kind of skill sets. Um, and I know what I can do without it. I'm just using it as a tool to kind of progress ideas that might take way more money, way more people, way more convincing, you know, people to kind of come to my side and sit outside and shoot this thing. And like, you know, it's like sometimes I just I I need to see it exist first. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

So because I saw some uh a clip on your website with Yoji Yamamoto, and that was way before AI was introduced. So how did you was that after effects or how did you execute that?

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Yeah, those after effects, I mean, I shot New York Fashion Week um a few times, and uh it was it was really cool because we we would shoot, we was a program with Tumblr where they'd have young photographers um shoot and then you'd have 15 minutes to go back and make something out of what you shot, post it, and then go back to the next show. And um, I think through some of that people saw, and then um I got flown out to uh Paris Fashion Week for Y3, and it was kind of like doing the same thing. Um, and that it's so interesting because like in between the shows, I would shoot the celebrities in the audience and remember those like wiggle portraits? Like I used to, I was one of the the people that was kind of really doing that. Shout out to Mr. Gif at the time who was really killing that stuff, and so it was like I was trying to always like tap into different things, you know, getting some stuff content for myself, but then like also doing something for YoG. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

When when did AI first enter into the picture?

SPEAKER_02 4:43

AI was starting to be a thing when I was like really in the NFT world. Um, I was doing 3D work with uh Cinema 4D and uh Octane Render, um, like really difficult kind of 3D software, like playing with a lot of stuff. And I would see some homies of mine like playing with it. It was so funny because you'd like you'd ask it something, and then 30 minutes later it would email you a link to this like really shitty, like you know, squiggle. And it was just like super interesting to me. And I was like, huh. And then, you know, I remember Mid Journey version one came out, and I remember playing with it. What was so interesting is kind of like it reminded me of a thing I used to do as a kid, like where I'd ask somebody to take a pencil and just you know scribble on the page, and I'd take it and I'd look at it and I'd draw things on top of it and turn it into something, like using my imagination to kind of take something. That's how I was kind of treating mid-journey. It would like give me half of a face, and then I would go in and draw the rest of it, right? So I was like, oh, this is kind of a cool thing because I can type an idea I have and it kind of spits me something that's like 20%, and then I take the rest of it to the finish line. But as the technology kept getting better, it was like 20%, and that was 30%, and that was 60%, you know, and then it was like, oh wow, like now I'm able to do way more difficult things and just like kind of really paying close attention to it. Um features were were coming out.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

What was the NFT craze like for you?

SPEAKER_02 6:21

It was a beautiful and a scary time at the same time because you know, I right before the pandemic, I had made like pretty big splash living in New York and was working with all these brands, and I had a different style at the time. I was using After Effects and I had this kind of duplicate uh figure kind of thing. And so like Nike, Sprite, um, Calvin Klein, Christian Dior, like these people were sliding my DMs on Instagram. Eventually, um, I got hit up to go work at Beyonce's company and then started doing things like Beycella at Coachella, and like I was started doing like tour stuff, which was really cool because that was like music and art at the same time. Um, and then when the pandemic happened and everything crashed, I was like, man, tours are like the first thing, you know, live shows are the first thing to kind of get canceled. So I didn't know what was happening. But in that bubble of COVID and Clubhouse started, and like all these artists started to come together. And it's I've been going to Art Basle with a thumb drive, being like, I'm a digital artist, like I make art, but I just use a computer, you know. And people were like, that's not a real thing. That's you know, and it was just really hard for people to understand. The most that they could kind of get from digital art was like a screensaver, you know. Um, and so at the time, digital art was having this sort of renaissance where you could own it. And previously, the only thing you could do is like sell a TV with something plugged into it that was showing your art, it wasn't true ownership. Um, which I think is is is really hard because I can get hired for my services. A brand can hit me and I can make something for them and I can get paid, but I can't get paid from selling my own artwork to another person. Well, NFTs were the solution to that problem. And so it was really beautiful to start to see that thing happen. The unfortunate part is it it really did expose they had this quote called Wag Me, which was like, We all gonna make it. But it kind of felt like there was an opportunity to build something new that wasn't kind of like the gallery system, the thing that kind of plagues real artists in the in the world, you know, painters and sculptors and stuff. It it started to just transfer over and it was the same thing. And then there was a lot of scams, there was a lot of like bad act. I got scammed out of a lot of money. I know a lot of other people that did, and it wasn't we all gonna make it, it was like kind of very 1% of the people made it. And so yeah, and then it all crashed, and it was kind of this giant failed experiment, you know, to kind of legitimize digital art, but it got attached to this word NFT that kind of thinks still leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Do you think that there's you know, certain things come and go and they leave bad taste in people's mouths, like you say, but then sometimes they just need a little bit of time to evolve and then they come back in a in a different form. Do you do you see that possibly happening with NFTs?

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Absolutely. I think the the the concept behind NFTs was is still amazing. Um, I think the word, of course, is is the thing that's weird, but what it is is like, you know, Basquiat getting um making a painting and then selling it to, you know, a collector for$10,000 in the 80s, you know, and then that collector selling it to a gallery, you know, 10 years later, 15 later, 15 years later for millions of dollars, Basquiat doesn't get any of that money. It's it's a sale that then all of a sudden, you know, like as many times as it's sold, the original artist does not get anything for it. The concept of this digital art that like every time the work is sold, the original artist gets a 10% or whatever's negotiated kickback on that sale, which I think is what should happen. I mean, me as a music producer, same thing, like royalties, you know, we wait so long to get royalties for songs, and it's like the numbers are always kind of like mysterious and stuff. Well, the way that this worked is when that item was sold, it doesn't the money doesn't go to a third party, and then they get to decide when we get the royalty. That money's it immediately split and to me and the part goes to the person that's written in the contract. I think even when it comes to like fan bases, and imagine if I could say, hey, I was you know a Drake fan from the very beginning, and I have this ticket that's an NFT, you know, that can't just be like photocopied and printed out and said, Yeah, I'm a fan I'm a legit fan. I can say I have this thing that I collected, and that means I'm I'm a legitimate person, you know, it in this fan base. I think there's like all of that stuff is needed. I think that experiment failed, but the technology and the mindset behind it, and one last thing too, is like we have this pressure to get like millions of people's eyes on our work, right? We need for in Spotify, if you get a million plays, it's like$4,000, right? That's not enough to live on. That's like, you know, that's just a splash in the bucket. But the thing with NFTs, it taught me was like, you know, a thousand true fans, you know, if a thousand people pay you a thousand dollars over a year, that's a million dollars. If ten thousand people pay you a hundred dollars, that's a million dollars. Like, I don't need the whole world to like me. I just have to find my tribe. I felt like in NFTs, I was I was starting, I was seeing that happen. I was starting to see people in my tribe and get really successful off of it. And I think as an artist, like I'm willing to give my fan base like the best version of me. But I think a lot of times we delude ourselves because we're trying to appeal to everybody, you know. Maybe my music, maybe my art is I'm trying to make everyone happy so it's not its purest form, you know, as opposed to like making what I really think should exist and then looking up and all these people in line to support me, you know? Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

The the thing about the the NFTs, I I totally understand. I I thought it was more of so let's say an artist um uses other art in order to create an art. Like let's say um whether it's screen printing or or whatnot, like somebody has a they take a photograph that another photographer took, but then they then turn it into a print or some type of painting, then the NFT somehow uh allows that original photographer or the original artist to get a piece of that. Because if somebody buys a bascuat for$10,000, there's no guarantee that in 10 years it's going to be worth$10 million. Right? So that person is taking a chance because they saw something that they believe in. And the, I mean, art art dealers aside, that person is then rewarded because, hey, I saw this and I liked it and I paid$10,000, which was astronomical at the time, and now I'm getting$10 million for it. Um, I'm not saying that the artist doesn't then deserve a piece of that, but it's as if like if I sell a car and somebody buys it, and then they take care of it for three or four years, and then they sell it for twice as much, the person that originally sold it's not gonna get anything.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Right. But that's that's a product made by a company. That's not an artist. It's like the same thing with royalties, like sampling Puff Daddy made it popular, you know, to take the Isley Brothers song and make it for, you know, notorious V.I.G. And then that song's on the radio. He took someone's art, yes, put something else on it, put it out on the radio, and when that money comes in, that artist deserves the kickback for it. You know, and I think that what's weird about art is that people don't look at it that way, even though it's the same thing. You're sampling right what I made, you know?

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Right, right, right, right. Understood. Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. Um so when I think of let's say performance art, right? You need to go to uh a space and experience that art. You can't take it home with you, right? Right. But people still do that and people are still paid a good amount of money to perform. Not not talking about singing or or dancing or or but actually performative art. Do you see your work uh uh as something like that? Like people can come and if if there's a whether it's walls or whether it's interactive, that people can then pay. And I I guess what I'm saying is do you see some of your work as almost like performative art?

SPEAKER_02 15:37

I don't think so. I don't I don't see it like that.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Um because I look at like in for instance, some of your work on Instagram, and I I see it, and I'm like, this is so amazing. And I could see how somebody but somebody can't buy that, right? But if if there is an event or you have a show and there's all of these rooms that people then go in and experience, that that's that's my connection. Does that well that's does that does that leave a bad taste in your mouth saying it's performative art? Or is that do you understand what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 16:12

No, uh I do. I mean, performing for who? The audience? I mean, is that what we all do? We're performing for an audience. Like, I mean I'm making this I'm making this work because it's something I'm thinking about. I think also in this day and age, a lot of people's complaints is that like, you know, when certain wars were going on, Marvin Gay made what's going on. You know, like an art an artist that was at the the certain part of their career spoke out about, hey, this is isn't this weird, T y'all? Isn't this kind of like interesting? Asking questions. I'm not telling anybody what to believe. I'm telling everybody, you know, what I'm just asking questions. And I think that it's less and less and less like that now because everybody's kind of shucking and driving and being a clown for the camera, you know, because they want to get on. But I think um one person once said, I'm gonna probably misquote it, but the the piece isn't finished until someone is viewing it. Right. You know, like that's a part of the art is the relationship between the audience and the work. You know, one of my favorite things in the world to do is like when I have had things in art basil, um, and I've had my digital work up with projectors or screens to just kind of stand behind and hear the conversations, even my less political work, you know, just things like beautiful things or but using tools that are kind of interesting and hearing the conversations, like I love that because I don't get that when I post it online. I mean, I see some comments, but I don't get that real-time feedback, you know, which I think, and to answer your question, is what the audience brings to the work itself, you know? Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

What can you walk me through your process?

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Yeah, I mean, I I make what's so interesting about my page is that like this some of this more black and white stuff recently has been blowing up.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

But I mean, if you can scroll back and see all kinds of experiments and me trying stuff, um, sometimes Well, I learned a lot when I went to your website because I I was I was inundated by your in a positive way by your by your Instagram where I was just like, whoa, this is there's there's something really going on here. There's there's a story being told. Um there's something beautifully dark about it. But then when I and it's a problem that a lot of us have is okay, well, how do you make money off of this? How how do you, you know, how does this person um because it's not so much like, oh, well, how do you make money? It's more of like, wow, this this is really something and it holds a lot of weight. How then how does he monetize this? And I know that's just a a horrible way to just automatically go to, but it's more of um it's more of an appreciation that I really hope that this gets the um the proper recognition that it deserves so this person can continue to do this. That's what I mean. But then when I went to your website, I see like, oh, of course, this totally relates itself to music videos, and this totally relates itself because one of my first things was like, man, if he added some narration to this or if he could make films, and then I go to your website, I'm like, oh, this this brother has done films. Like he does make films. So let me go back to um my original question. What walk me through your process?

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Yeah, like I I was started out by saying, well, first of all, thank you for what you're saying. I I um and I have some thoughts on that too. But to answer your question, it's like it really depends on where where I'm at. Like I have stuff that's more fashion forward, you know, making fashion films. I think me shooting New York Fashion Week, being into fashion myself, like I like exploring things that are just like pretty, you know, for the sake of like, hey, this is just beautiful to look at, versus like sometimes it's like I have a story that I want to tell. I I think about something that that man, this would be an interesting, you know, thing, whether it's a conversation I've had with somebody. Sometimes it starts out like that. Sometimes, um, especially for this more recent work, um, I'm like listening to podcasts or like watching news clips and just like kind of seeing the state of the world on my doom scrolling, like, and I'm like, man, I I'm also a big fan of political cartoons and like how they can say something kind of one image, you know? Um, and I'm thinking to myself, what is going to be an immediate thing that people can understand? One of the um compliments, favorite compliments I received recently on my work was somebody from another country that said that they typed it to me and I had to translate it, but it was like, I love your work because it transcends language. Like there's no words, there's no narration. And and we from you know, Iran or from Brazil or from wherever can look at this and be like, oh. And I didn't even realize that I I was connecting with people that way. I just kind of was like, this is kind of where the tools are right now, and and this, and I'm just trying some stuff out. So I think a lot of times it's it's um it's just a lot of experimentation, but I but I tend to like um start with an idea, and then other times I'm just kind of like just like shooting in the dark, and then something will happen. I'll take it into Photoshop and edit, edit, edit, you know, put it back into AI, take it out, add motion to it, bring it into After Effects, add some things to, you know, like it very But yeah, but a lot of times it does start with an idea in my head first.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

And how much how much is it like understanding how to prompt whatever AI you're using?

SPEAKER_02 22:16

I think that uh prompting used to be a way bigger deal than it is now. I think um these things are starting to move towards the agentic way of doing it where you're speaking to a chat, you know, and kind of say, hey, like I want this, this, and that, you know, and then it kind of, you know, shows you something. Like even on Mid Journey, it's it's funny, like you go on the Explore page and you'll see this really beautiful image, and then you'll click, you know, click on the prompt, and it'll be like a a girl sitting by the window, you know, and it's just because it already understands, like, okay, out of all the millions and billions of images I've made, the ones that have been downloaded have looked aesthetically like this, you know? And that tends to be what people go for and like. It's constantly learning, right? So I think it's it you it's less and less and less about what you prompt. I had a friend of mine uh point this out too the other day, which was really beautiful. It's like before art used to be about kind of that 10,000 hours, like your technique, how you drew, how you played the guitar, how many hours you practiced. And that's really what people looked at and respected. Like, oh wow, that took a lot of time, you know? And I think now with AI, since everybody has the same tool, that's the other thing. So some other musician could have a studio with all the gear in it, meaning their music could still suck. Right. Or someone's just in a bedroom with a laptop and they're making the most amazing music. Tools definitely limited sometimes, like how well some people's art looked or music sounded. I think now that everybody has the same tools, if you have the internet, you know, in a browser, like you can make things that are at this level. And I think now what he was saying is it's about the idea, executing art on a certain level, you know, being around other incredible creatives, learning all these different softwares and stuff. I I can add that to the idea. And that's that combination, I think, is I mean, I think that's what people see in my work. It doesn't look like I just like type the first thing and then put it in there and like, oh yeah, and I got lucky. It's not luck, it's really hard work. It's like I prompt something and I don't get what I want. And so I have to Photoshop it to get closer, and then I put it back in. And it's a lot of trial and error, but it's way more than people even think or understand. A lot of people will tell, man, I saw your stuff and like it made me want to go download Mid Journey, and I tried it and just that you know that shit is hard. I'm like, yeah, it's it's not plug and play, like it like a lot of people think, you know, it is.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Yeah. Do you feel and this might be a funny question, but um to because I I don't I don't use Mid Journey or anything just because that's not what I'm using. I use I use ChatGPT a lot to help me out with with uh with text. And I almost feel like I have, especially when you start using voice prompts, I feel like I have a relationship with ChatGPT, as weird as that sounds, because it's like ChatGPT is my assistant. So I don't just rudely tell it what to do. Sometimes I say please, and I'm like, why am I asking? Why am I saying please? Do you feel like you have a relationship with AI?

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Absolutely. Absolutely. I I don't necessarily have one where I don't talk to mine in that way. Um I just don't choose the like my the voice version. But I it but it's so so funny too. My girlfriend will be talking to Alexa, and I'd be like, you better be nicer to it. You know, it's like I I do have a feeling that who knows, like someday, like the way that people kind of treat it, like maybe it'll remember, you know, who knows?

SPEAKER_00 26:03

And that's I that's that's part of it for me too. Like, hey, you can look back. I was always really nice to you. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Exactly, exactly. But I think that this relationship with uh this tool, I think it's at least mine, the profile that's building on me of the things that I like, the things that like even this one that I use called Rev. Um, it'll say stuff to me. It'll be like, oh, I saw that you downloaded those two options. You know, it's like, okay, so you like those. You know, it's like it it's constantly collecting data on what works and and how to make me happy, you know. I think it started to kind of definitely pick up on, you know, you have this thing that you've been doing and this story that you've been telling, and and it maybe it gets easier and easier each time I use it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Yeah. And you so you're referring to the stuff that's on Instagram now as your new work. Um, and I I want to get back to that, but I wanted to talk about um love again. Okay. Um did you sh did you shoot a lot of that? Or where does the actual the the imagery come from? That's all mid-journey. Wow.

unknown 27:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

That's and the one thing I wanted to say is, you know, you use a lot of you use a lot of fire in in your work. And and I understand, like, so for instance, um, there is a image of a horse running that's burning. And normally that would be such a a haunting image, you know, but the way you use it, I'm able to appreciate the beauty of it because I'm not thinking of, oh well, they set a horse on fire or whatever the so I can actually enjoy the imagery of a powerful horse and the beauty of a horse, and then the beauty of a horse on fire, and then get behind the the meaning of it. But can you talk about what Love Again is about?

SPEAKER_02 28:15

For sure. And to your point about the horse, I mean, that was really because it's the Chinese year of the fire horse, right? It's like this powerful symbol. And I think in my work, I I've always been a fan of symbolism. Love again um is this video where I I'm also hesitant, man, because I love like you know, Christopher Nolan and like these other directors, where it's like, do you talk, you know, about what it means, or do you let the art kind of speak for itself, you know? Yeah, and I'm I'm because I love talking about what it means, you know. I'm I'm very intentional about like why I'm doing things. Um, but for love again, I I'll just say that like fire in that in that video for me represents um passion. And you know, there's a there's in the limitations sometimes, especially at the time that I made it, which was almost two years ago, where it's like making a consistent care character was a lot harder. So in my brain, I was like, this video should be about all of us, you know, a bunch of different types of relationships, mothers and their children, you know, grandparents and their kids, or you know, love and all like between uh partners, like and in the video, you'll notice that like there'll be times where both people's heads have fire coming from them, which is kind of like they're both in love, they both have passion. And then there's some moments where only one person has it, you know, and there's some where like neither have it. And um, and yeah, there's just a bunch of moments where I show, like, there's one moment where uh a bride and a groom look like they just got married, and there's a big pit of fire in front of them. The groom is looking at it, and you know, the the bride kind of looks back at the camera, even referencing the biblical story of Sarah, you know, when they told her not to look back at Gamora and she she turned and looked. It's like, what are you what else do you need to look at? Like, um, kind of leaving those kind of themes like out there of like just all these different kinds of relationships and and you know how they go together or don't.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

How long did it take you to make that?

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Um, that was about I think it was like two or three weeks of kind of like I I made it in in a few pieces. Like at first it was just gonna be like a sh like one verse kind of thing, and then and then Tim was like, oh let's let's kind of make it a full video, and then so I spent another week or two like kind of fleshing it out, but super proud of that. Unfortunately, I had to get taken down because of issues with the song um uh sampling and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

But right. So are are you going to what are you gonna do? Are you gonna do something else or do another track to it or no? I mean, it is what it is. I I think I've made it, I I I created that moment and um yeah. Yeah, I'm proud of that for sure. It's amazing, it's beautiful, it's gorgeous. Um one thing people whenever people have pushback about AI, I I try to rem remind them that when the camera came out, people had pushback about that because they're like, Oh, you just pushed a button and took a picture, you know? Exactly. And it's like, um do you think that um that traditional artists underestimate AI? Or they over underestimate or overestimate it.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

I don't know. I I I think I I'm on both, I can see both sides, right? I think what you said is a great example. I I've read a book that was talking about Picasso and him coming up during the time that the cameras invented. The painters were terrified because you got to think they're they're charging these people for all this time of sitting and letting them paint them. So you could have a portrait for two weeks, you know, someone's sitting there, not longer. They're getting paid all that time to do this. All of a sudden, this technology comes out that it's like you click a button and it's done. You know what I mean? And and so what but the beautiful part is is that Picasso then decided to all these people that survived off of making art from what is actually in front of you. He said, now I'm free to make what's in my mind. And then he was able to make um, I forget the name of the painting, but it was a bunch of uh prostitutes in a brothel. But it was like the first time, like Cubism, you know, was the beginning of modern art because he wasn't trying to make a landscape or a portrait of somebody. He was like now able to create something that didn't exist really. And so it started revolution, you know, which now we don't even second guess it, you know what I mean? Because we we expect people to just paint, you can paint whatever, but that's not what the mindset was. I think that this has always happened. When the car was invented, the horse people were upset, you know. When just like the internet, you know, the cell phone, like all these inventions, the the tool is neither bad. A knife is not good or bad. A knife can cut somebody free or it can stab somebody. Fire can can keep you warm and keep you alive, or it can burn your whole house down. It's you can't villainize the tool, you know, but what you can do is say, you know, I'm going to be one of the people that holds this tool responsibly. You know, me being an artist that has put in the 10,000 hours, the 20,000 hours, and being able to use it. Another thing I want to do and feel responsible to do is to show people that you can use it to create something that still connects to people. I think once you get the dopamine hit, it doesn't matter. Like afterwards, someone can be like, oh, that's AI, I hate it. But you already, you know, it it got into your into your brain and said, wow, and it made you think, you know, and that's what's important, you know, that that people walk away. I think people walk away, you know, either inspired or maybe asking a question. And I'll end this last part with one of my favorite quotes. It says, art and love are the same. If I love you, I have to make you conscious of the things you cannot see. And beautiful art does that, it asks those questions, it asks you to say, you know, is this okay? Is this not? You know, and that's what I'm trying to do. And if people want to be mad or say I'm making slop or whatever, I'm not making Pokemon fighting Dotzilla, you know what? And hey, people can do that if that if they want to, but that's I don't think that's the same thing. I don't think what I'm making is slop, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

What do you think the biggest pushback or the biggest criticism is that that you get?

SPEAKER_02 35:37

That it's slop, that I'm that I just press the button that I'm stealing from other artists. I think that's a funny argument too, because you know, even when I was using After Effects or even as a music producer, I got stolen from all the time. And you know what? I also stole because was that quote? It was like great artists steal. Stealing in the sense of gotten away with it. It's like a lot of people, you know, music-wise, like think about like reggae music. It has Motown era, like they they sound the same, but there's a lot of same chord progressions of reggae tone. Like it's when is it copying or when is it the genre? It's like those inspiration is a funny thing. And I think that you know, whenever I was stolen from, when my work was stolen from, I didn't make any resistance from that. I couldn't do anything, I couldn't really sue somebody. I I inspired it. And I and I had to to take note from like James Terrell, you know, when when uh uh Hotline Bling came out, you know, they stole the all the look of James Terrell for the video. And they went and asked him and he's in his 70s, and they're like, yo, how do you feel about this? They stole your work. He's like, Man, that's amazing. He's like, Drake introduced my work to so many new people that I would have never reached. And I think that as you get older, that's how you have to think about it. If I'm not being stolen from, if I'm not inspiring, then my not my work is not, you know, reaching people, it's not touching people. And I remember when I first started making music, I wanted to sound like Timberlin. I wanted to sound like you know, Dr. Dre and Pharrell and and all my beats were sounding like it, because you you get to a point where you're like you're trying to match the bar. And if those people set the bar, if I can make something it sounds as good as them, then I'm on their level, which is not true, but it's how you think. And I think that once you get to that point, when you have the skills and you have the thing, it's like you take those influences and your job as an artist is to blend them to where they're unrecognizable. You know, it's a little bit of this and a little bit of that, and a little bit of this, but you can't really put your finger on it. It's the problem, I think, with sometimes with this new era we live in with the internet, is that people become famous right when they meet, match their peers. And they don't have the time to blend those things. So it's just a bunch of influences that never got blended, you know, and and people are praised for that. You know, people are applauded for sounding just like this person or looking their work looking just like that. So I just don't I don't like this idea that you stole from someone else because when you watch The Dark Knight, everyone's like, oh, this is the most amazing movie in the world. Have you ever seen Heat? Yeah. It's the same movie with Batman. It's like it's Heat with Batman. Like, but that's okay because you know, it's the inspiration. You're taking it to a new generation. You're you're showing an homage, you know, to your inspirations.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Yeah, I mean, most of Quentin Tarantino's films, the scene for scene are taken from other films, but they're just yeah, they're just they're just they're just you know, just a little different. It's uh it reminds me of um Michael Jordan was interviewed, and there's always this GOAT conversation. They're always trying to say who's the best, and they asked him about it, and he just said how it's such a silly conversation because whenever you say that, you're disrespecting everybody that came before you. And he's saying, like, I'm I would not be Michael Jordan if it wasn't for Dr. J and all these other people that showed me the way, and then I just fine-tune that. And now everybody that comes after me is taking what I've done and they're fine-tuning that. And I just feel like it also reminds me of in when I was in film school when um the teacher asked one of these students what they wanted to do, and and I think the answer was I just want to do something that nobody's ever done before. And he was like, Well, you're never gonna do that, everything's been done, it's just how you're gonna do it, you know? Yeah, it's just it's just how you're gonna do it, because every story's been told, every everything's already been done. You're never gonna do anything truly, truly original. It's just how do you learn to use these tools? And that's all I see AI is is is um is a tool. Um, I had this conversation with Tony, my previous guest, the um telling him that, you know, for a while I got a little um paralyzed by just all the negative information that's out there. And not not that that's anything new, but it just seems like in the last two years it's been very, very heavy. And um, anytime you open up your phone, you're just inundated by all this negativity and and and death and and um just a lot of things that make you feel very helpless. And the easy thing to do is to just put it down and just go about your day. But um, you know, part of me feels like I'm not doing anything about it. And another thing is like, you know, with my work, I don't really feel like it's helping anything in, you know, the current uh climate of things. And and one thing that's helped me is this podcast because I'm able to talk to other creatives. But when I see your work, I kind of feel like this is the answer to all of that because your work is very political, but it's not like political in the way where you're trying to sway anybody's opinion. It's more of like the current state of the world, and this is just the imagery to it. That's how I see it. How how would you explain your your current work?

SPEAKER_02 41:27

So the concept uh is called dream feed, and it started out as this thing of like I um I don't remember my dreams very often, like very very rarely. But there's moments where I like have a flash of like, oh wow, wait a minute, you know? And I'm fascinated with this concept of the ability to like record your dreams in the future, and to be able to kind of like have a collection of these things and the intimacy of a dream. Like sometimes it's a dream you would have that you wouldn't share with somebody, you know, your partner or maybe your family, because it's like maybe it was the big reveals too much. Yeah, or or maybe it's something you did, you know, or whatever, and you don't want to plant that seed in someone's. So I'm fascinated with dreams, even though I don't tend to have them very much. Um, the dreams that I relate to is like accomplished this one day, you know, kind of this custom dream. Like you have control of that dream, I guess, but in the and when you go to sleep, you it's random. And then the idea that randomness, I could post like three or four things back to back that aren't related to each other. Um, and some of my favorite things, there's actually a book called The Mysteries of Harris the Burdick that I was reading as a kid. And it's it's an interesting story of 14 stories that only have a caption and a title. It's just one image and a caption and a title. And as a kid, your brain is just like, wait, what happened before? What happened at the end? Like, you're just kind of dropped into this moment into the scene. And that for me was super inspiring for my work now, which is so interesting because I found that book in my all my list of books when I was moving recently, and I was like, oh wow, I did I forgot that this inspired me. It's all in black and white. Um, the story too is interesting because apparently this guy went into a publisher, had these 14 story, 14 stories, but just the image in the caption, and then he presented to them and they loved it. And they said, come back tomorrow. Want to put these out, and he never came back. And so it's just these like 14 images with not no other context. So anyway, I was just like, hey, I want to do something similar and kind of show these dream things. I think the first one I did was a was a girl uh with an afro smoking a cigarette standing on a car. As like five cops like were looking at her. And I was just like, you know, that was a a vision I had where I was like, man, this would be really cool. Or like just random people in business suits and doing things and work. And then all of a sudden, I did this one that was um with featured death, the the Grim Reaper. And that thing hit a million views, and I was like, whoa, like I didn't expect this to reach as many people as it did. But it was interesting because again, that that relationship to the audience, right? I'm making things, but then I'm seeing I made this. And then I'm trying to understand what about that connected with people. What I could see is that this is the one thing that we all have in common. No matter your race, no matter your religion, no matter, you know, gender, anything, we're all going to die. And the fact that we, you know, tend to forget that sometimes, or maybe we don't. Maybe that's all we think about when you read the news or whatever, you know, you open your phone. And it's for some reason, I feel like that like that will really click through. And then as more stuff started happening, and and ends with the war, or things with gas, or things with people in power, I started to just again have more questions. I think the thing that about this work that's really interesting to me is I do, as you see with Love Again and some of these other things, like they're not political at all. Like they're just I'm I'm telling a story or I'm just like speaking on things, but I tend to flex what's kind of in the open tab of my mind, you know. I think it's hard to ignore what's really going on in the world. And anytime I post something that's not political, it doesn't get the views, you know? So then I feel like a slave to the algorithm in that way that it's like feed me, and I have to feed it what people want to see. But I don't want to be seen as a political artist. I want to be seen as an artist who speaks on what I'm going through, what I'm feeling, what I'm like seeing, you know. So I'm I'm also conscious of that. I think in certain countries too, like there's been artists who've been silenced, who've been, you know, had their work taken from them, and like all these things because they're looked at as powerful, you know, because they that seed that an artist can plant, that that a song, that a whatever can, you know, unify existence.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

And I'm I'm conscious of that too. Like, not scared, you know what I mean, but just conscious of like how much do I want to be known for that versus somebody that that just is honest.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Yeah. I see because when we say political, there's there's political where people are trying to nail home. Um I I always think of political like somebody's trying to persuade you to think a certain way. And there's there's there's there's telling the news, which is very rare these days, and then there's this is what you should think. Um but then like just off the top of my head, you have the one where um I believe somebody's sitting on a car and they're at a gas station, old school gas station, and there's um like a snake that looks like a um uh a fuel pump. And it's behind them. So that that is very a sign of the times because of gas prices. I mean, gas prices and just oil in general. I mean, that's a sign of times the last 50 years. But that one hit particularly hard just because of everything we're going through. Um was that uh intentional uh because of the times or I think you're mixing up a couple of them.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

The one that that I have is is soldiers fighting a giant snake.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

Uh okay. Yes, I am mixing too.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

Yeah. Nozzle head. Yeah. And that was definitely inspired by this idea that we're going into the Middle East and everything is about oil, you know, and like we're we're are we really fighting the people or are we fighting this idea of controlling oil? Like who who's in charge of the most of it? And this resource that, you know, is kind of this ancient idea not into, but it's like an expiring concept. You know, there's so many other sources of energy that we should be, you know, working towards that, you know, I think a lot of people don't want to because there's money and power in doing it. So yeah, it's it and and I think that that way of like talking about it in my mind, I I think about that, you know, I'm like, man, how can I say, how can I ask this question, you know, with with an immediately identifiable thing. And that one I was really proud of because of just how it came together. But it was really hard to make as well because they I didn't understand, you know, a gas pump and everything. I had to like do a lot of Photoshop. And and that's again that thing where a lot of people think I'm just like hitting a button. And one one of these days I'm gonna do something where I'm gonna show probably like how it started and and how it got there, like you know, kind of redeal my process visually to show people like 20 steps that it took to get it like that.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

How um how long does it usually take to do something like that?

SPEAKER_02 49:32

I know that's kind of an arbitrary question, but yeah, it's it's it's hard sometimes it knocks it, I knock it out of the park right away, like the idea is there, you know, I talk to Mid Journey and then it like gives me a few options and then I you know I make some tweaks and then it just like sometimes it takes me a week, you know, to to get the right thing. There there's this one that I that I I think kind of got slept on. It was this like right when they I had that uh the kid who got abducted by ice, you know, by and it was like he was used as bait and something like that. Idea that like what if like the kid had like supernatural powers, you know, and so he's like sitting there, and it was a it was in my mind, I was like, what happens to the soldiers? If I make them all explode, you know what I mean? That's like super like crazy. If I make them just all lift in the air, like and so it took me a long time to like land on like what should happen in that scenario, and then also kind of prompting it, oh getting messed up results, like you know, this would mess up, that would mess up. That's another thing that sometimes you don't get exactly what you want and you got to wait, and then all of a sudden the program like updates to version four, you know, and then you try it and it works, you know. It's like sometimes the idea, you know, is too early and the technology can't really do it. I I've definitely had that that issue before.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Have you uh thought of marrying your your films and your current work into a like a series, like a a like almost like an anime series?

SPEAKER_02 51:15

No, I haven't. I think also to be honest, it's it's really hard to post consistently, like three times a week, and do three posts, like this nine ideas a week that I have to kind of come up with. If you think about a political cartoon, it's kind of making one a week, right? But it's like this output is also something that I feel is a pressure of its own, which I'm grateful for because I mean, I also have a job, I have a day job where I I run AI at an agency, you know. So I'm I'm working all day with the tools and getting better at the tools, and then when I get off work, then my you know, this other thing starts that I'm doing. But yeah, just during the week, I'm like listening to again the news and everything, and then ideas kind of come. Um yeah, so so it's interesting. Sometimes, yeah, sometimes I'm like, where does this go? Like, is this a longer format format thing? But I am making longer things, like I just filmed that's like two minutes long for a for like this where they had like a famous screenwriter write a scene and then they gave it to like six or seven AI artists to interpret that scene, and they could add something in the beginning or finish the story, and they just will kind of go. But a very legit screenwriter, so that was like a really cool opportunity to be like, all right, how would I envision this? And it's dialogue, and it's you know, it's like the next level of my work, which I've always wanted to be a filmmaker, but these tools have really enabled me to to experiment on my own, you know, and kind of see if this is worth telling, you know.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about your quote unquote day job? Because I I feel like um, especially with with younger artists, I always tell them like, hey man, there's there's other ways to make money with what you love to do that fuels what your, you know, your your art is. You don't always have to make it just doing what you do. Like you can also make money for another organization. So what what exactly do you do?

SPEAKER_02 53:31

So I'm a senior AI artist um at an agency, you know, a lot of times with pitch decks. Like it in the past, it's it's a big like an imagination of, you know, hey, we're gonna do this, but now it's like we're gonna do this, and we're gonna show exactly, you know, if they take a big brand that's gonna take over Times Square. And then, you know, there's like famous characters from franchises, and then like I would make that look real to present and get the agency, the job, you know, right? So that's kind of what I've been doing for the past year. But ironically, like before all of this, I was freelance, you know, for this is my first actual kind of corporate agency, excuse me, job. Before that, I've been freelance, you know, the whole time, like getting hired by brands to and and what I would use my Instagram for to answer earlier question you had is like, how do you monetize this, right? Yeah, it's like I would use my Instagram to show this is what I can do. And a lot of brands would say, Oh, can you do that? You know, that's how I monetize it. The problem that I I wish that we could solve is with the NFT kind of thing, where I have work that I've made that I would love to sell and have collectors and have a way to legitimately sell that art. Like if I if the NFT world was happening right now and I was making the work that I was making, I'll probably be able to make a lot of money off of this work. But right now, all it can do for me is really get me other work for other people. So there's so that that is the the kind of conflict of interest of it. But I think taking this job has been something that I've had to learn how to pivot multiple times in my career. I told you as a music producer, you know, music as soon as I got into it, streaming became a thing. We started making way less money than we were before. You know, I start doing art, you know, start doing visuals, I start doing tour visuals. COVID happened, pivot. You know, it's it's I think as you in this time specifically, trends just move faster and faster and faster and faster, things become extinct. You know, this probably pretty soon, I'm gonna be honest, where I think AI, art, you know, movies like I want to be a filmmaker, but what happens when Netflix releases this feature where you can be like, hey Netflix, I want to watch the Matrix 7, and I want me and my friends to be in it, and I want, you know, me to fight Tom Cruise at the end. And then we watch that. But then when I talk to you, we don't have a water cooler moment of like, hey, did you watch that new movie that came out by this person? It's like, is everything bespoke then? Because it's it's much more in some ways, it's much more fun to kind of like have that sort of like customization to to whatever we're listening to or to where we're watching. That's one of the big questions I have about the future of art. It's like how much of it will be all of us gathering around this one thing and talking about it versus like just creating our own.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

Yeah, I didn't even think about that. That because there are people are already doing that where they're kind of putting, I think it was like Joe Rogan fighting um John Wick. And it was like when you watched it, you're like, God, this looks this is real. Like this is this is real. So I didn't even think about that. I don't know if you remember before they tried to do movies where um the the audience uh could vote for which direction the movie went, and they kind of filmed a bunch of different like Van Denerich? Yeah, exactly. But that never really that never really took off. Yeah. Um so I don't I don't know. I get you kind of answered it, but what what what excites you the most about AI and then what scares you the most about AI?

SPEAKER_02 57:35

So because I just watched the there's a documentary called the AI doc. You heard about it? It's just it's in the theaters now, and it's like I think you should go see it. It was super interesting because when me and my girlfriend went, we were the only people in the theater. And we're watching it, and it's like all they're talking about is like how dangerous all this stuff is. And I get a lot of hate, you know, online where people say, Oh, you know, you're part of the problem and this is slopped. But meanwhile, you know, these companies are racing towards, you know, AGI. And the the fear that I didn't know that I didn't know that I learned from this documentary is like if like China and Russia are both running towards AGI with no um guardrails, no moral kind of things in place to stop us. Um, I think the US is then saying, well, we have to race and use those guardrails because they'll get there faster than us. The ramifications of them getting there faster could mean like the next version of a world war, which is they just wipe out our banking system, or they turn off our Wi-Fi, or you know, just so many things that could happen. So that's what's kind of weird is it's this new mutually assured destruction thing where everyone's just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we know it's dangerous, but we have to beat them, you know, and that's scary because if someone like a Putin got it or some, you know, whatever, it's like what they would be, what they would do with it. Um that's scary. And the idea of bringing kids into this world, you know, I think every generation has felt that way, you know. Um, it's scary. But in my lifetime, man, I I've seen things change so much, just the exponential curve of just how wild it's been. I I I I there's a there's a utopian view of it where AI could cure cancer, you know, it could look into all these diseases, it it can spot. There's even been cases where you know it looked at CAC scans, PET scans, and it was like, you know, uh, oh, this is cancer, and it detects it way before a human could, you know, or like just all these different, you know, developments um with health, with um, you know, there's a possibility that, you know, less than a four-day work week, like, you know, or universal income. And like, but do I trust that that humans would allow that? I mean, there was like COVID was a huge experiment on if everybody's home, all of a sudden everyone's in the street, you know, George Floyd protests and stuff. It's like when we're less busy, when we have less things to do, we have more time to be outraged about how messed up the world is. And I don't think that that's how any of this is built. Having no time and being exhausted. And now we're getting really political, but I just I mean, it just it's just kind of things that I'm thinking about.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

Yeah. I mean, I for me, the the the tools, the artistic tools of AI, it's just it's just a sign of the times. The only thing that scares me about AI is who's in control with it, who's in control of it, you know, and like you know, the whole thing that happened with anthropic and them trying to put some guardrails in and like that, that that's super telling. And if you watch any, there's an interview with um with Sam Altman and Tucker Carlson. Um, whatever you think about Tucker Carlson, you should that that interview is fucking scary. Yeah, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:15

Yeah, and he's in that documentary too. He's in a documentary too. And and again, it it's I I think that that's what's so interesting, is it's very misplaced when people say, Oh, this is slop, when there's people that are not about where this is going, and they just want to be the first trillion dollar company or whatever. It's like always this greed in this again, it's the tool is neither good or bad. It's like always whose hands it's in. I'm worried about that for sure. But like you said earlier, I think that if I can use this technology, I think it's also ironic that I'm using this technology to speak on things. You know, I'm aware of that and kind of tongue-in-cheek about it myself that like, yeah, I'm using this technology to say, you know, have you thought about this? And I'm in no way, you know, any kind of like person or savior or anything like that. I think I'm just I'm I'm along the same ride that we all are. You know, we could we could all be living such a different existence in in a few years. And I've heard people say things really arrogantly like people, you know, this AI will never be able to make music as good as real people. And I'm just like, yes, it will, because it's trained off of everything that we made. Like, I I think about this idea, right? Imagine Spotify. It knows every song I've ever liked. It knows all the playlists I've had, it knows like all my influences, it knows the music I've produced. What if, you know, it what if it has access to Chat GPT and understands my mood? You know, I've had a bad day. And then it's like it starts playing music. It just makes music that it knows is going to put me in a good mood. But it's music that's net new, right? It's like I'm just never, just not a real artist, but it knows what I like. It knows the chord progressions that I gravitate to, the tempos, the drum sounds, and it just starts to do it. And it's and it makes me cry. It's the most beautiful thing. It puts me in a good mood. Am I that's all but that's AI? I've already experienced the dopamine. I've already you know cried, I've already like been touched by this thing. And I think that like that's the thing that people don't get. And every time someone said it'll never do that, I've watched it do it like four or five times in the last few years. And so what's scary to me is about all the things that we we haven't even thought of that it's gonna be able to do. I I think we're kind of at that point. Like, how much better is this video stuff gonna get? Like, I mean, what's after like we're the uncanny battle was like this thing that we hit where computer graphics kind of you could tell that people weren't real and like the lighting was fake, and like you know, it's like but now you know did you see that thing that NVIDIA released where it was like a graphics car to take old video games and add a layer of like pop of it?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:37

No, it's yeah, I just saw the three thousand dollar supercomputer that they're gonna have come out. I don't know if that's part of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:44

Yeah, it might be, but it's like think about that. You're you're playing like a PlayStation 1 era game, but it looks real because it's just a filter that's that's on top of it's doesn't require any other computing power or the game company to like you know now. They they resell things, it's like PlayStation because it's a remake, right? It's like you're taking this old game and we're adding these graphics, but it's gonna do that to everything old movies, like you'll be able to watch you know something very new, but have like an old film noir aesthetic. You can just filter everything you're watching to to you know be how you like it. I I'm excited about it, you know, but also like man.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:29

I don't I don't understand that. So it's a it's a it's a hardware that you would add to existing software, or how do how would that work?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:39

It's a graphics card that has a filter that is on top of whatever you're playing. Um, and so it uprezzes it, you know. Um I'll I'll find the video and send it to you. But okay, but yeah, I mean, and there's been the backlash too, because people are like, oh, the nostalgia is part of it. But I mean think about this when whenever you have old like uh photos from your childhood and maybe this is about to say yeah as like torn or something and like you can put it in nano banana now and it'll like take off all the cracks or replace certain things and or the people actually start talking and moving around. Yeah, exactly. Yeah but imagine that being like you know old home videos or like the distortion is gone in music that you couldn't really hear yeah it's just it's going to be able to change everything and we're not in an uncanny valley anymore where like you can't even tell the difference you know between life and the one other thing I want to say too that that I I love thinking about is whenever people talk about like the six fingers and oh it looks like AI and stuff like that. I think people are gonna miss those days um because you could readily tell you right um I think the limitations of the time become its defining characteristic so vinyl is a great example people add those sounds to music now to simulate what something sounded like people add film grain I do it all the time in my work to simulate the limitation of a 16 millimeter you know video camera people um are big on Polaroids because now they have a camera they can you know their phone can take whatever but it's like something about waiting for it to print out and like we love the nostalgia of limitations so where we're headed now is this idea that everything is too perfect you know like what as as a culture or will we have a setting where it's like hey remember that old style of mid-journey where like the eye was messed up and there was extra fingers and stuff like that's cool like I want my rollout to look like that you know reminiscent of that time yeah I I I think that's such an interesting you know kind of topic yeah like the 90s filter the 70s filter the 80s filter you know uh trying to make things look like VHS it's uh and and you hear it all the time oh that that that image is too clean you know you need to yeah it's just way too it's way too sharp yeah these are all things people say um I could talk to you forever man I I just one one question I wanted to ask you is um so the way that everything is going right now there there has to be a way to sell digital art so what what is what in your mind what if you could predict what would be nft point 2.0 I think that uh it's gonna be just something that's embedded into like your social medias you know um because and one of my friends is trying to build something along these lines I've always thought about leaderboards right like so you have uh stock say you have stock in Apple and you say like you said earlier I believe in this company I think it's gonna go places and I'm gonna invest in it and if I'm right I get rewarded for it I think the same thing should be able to happen for if I say I see say someone sees my work on Instagram and they're like man I believe similar way of Patreon like they could give me a dollar a month or whatever and people invest in me and then those tokens those shares you know say I do become this huge artist and those shares are now worth a certain amount of money they can sell those shares and be rewarded for the fact that they believed in me. I would make a cut from that sale right because I'm also the artist I'm also part of the ecosystem of why it you know became big but my fan base is rewarded one thing that they did in in the NFT world too was like music right so you could be a part if I put out a song my fans paid for the song and then every time that song is streamed and they made royalties my fans would also make part of the royalties so then they're incentivized to share it to people to like get more people involved and then like I was saying earlier this concept of a leaderboard imagine if you know Justin Bieber on his website had a leaderboard this in the world is the number one Justin Bieber fan. They own the most merch they listen to the most music they do this how many people would be fighting for that top spot to show and screenshot it and share it on their socials like I'm right now for 30 seconds I was the number one fan you know and then again all that money they've invested not like ever maybe every piece of merch had an NFT component maybe if the Coachella concert tickets maybe it's a special because but they would also have like um events uh the NFTs that came with events you know to show that you were there like all those things are incentivized to to sh to give back to the fan I think that we're nothing without the audience right with the people that really believe in us and I think 2.0 would mean that we really find our trial much easier I think we're less driven by algorithm and just trying to appease to everybody and really just like making what we think we should should exist and then other people supporting us through that. I think digital we we don't call it digital photography it's just photography. We you know I think that's such a limitation the term digital I think as we move into the future we're gonna look back and laugh at the idea of calling something digital it's just you either make you know you made it you like we're part of it it's the tool that's it but it doesn't mean that it's any less beautiful like I know 3D artists that spend you know hours and hours sculpting things and making things and like they can't stop it. You know it's like they get hired by a brand to make something for them but those artists should really be uh be able to it should be a legitimate you know and regardless of like galleries or like institutions being able to kind of gatekeep and say this is art this isn't like I think there should just be a system that exists for for all kinds of mediums to be a way of living which could also open up the middle class of art and music which kind of becomes non-existent because only the one percent of people on Spotify get to make money. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:16

It's it's about people selling us things those people make the most money which is odd isn't it like yeah what's interesting about the the leaderboard is that then the the top fans who jumped on you early could almost be looked as like investors.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:38

So like the Warren Buffett of of fans like oh they were on Justin Bieber who else are they on who who else are they on to that that nobody else knows about yeah so then it gives the fan like that type of clout of like no they're not just like some like fanboy or girl like they they inherently know or have an ear for talent when other people aren't saying like you know yeah exactly great taste yeah that's it so but it would still be blockchain so the blockchain is still I mean I think so I think that that how do you guarantee how do you guarantee that those royalties go to where they're supposed to go like the the thing about NFTs that that was scary was there was a lot of uh scams scams there was a there's a lot of really smart like some of the smartest people in the world that were presented with this idea of like okay you know I see a hole in this that could be exploited and I could do the right thing and tell them or I can exploit it and make all this money and it's crypto so no one would ever find me and I could feed my family or my mom's in the hospital and I need to pay like people can justify anything and I saw that happen so many times. And it's scary because it's just like with I I saw one quote I I really love masks too masks is another subject in a lot of my work too if you if you go back but someone said um the only way to know a man for sure is to give him a mask you know it's like if you if no one knows who you are when you're saying the truth is going to come out and I think when it comes to crypto it's kind of the same thing when when when your identity is hid you know people's true intentions kind of come out and that really was this experiment of just okay most people are gonna take the the bad choice. Maybe but I'm just I think that I think there has to be for 2.0 some kind of new way of protecting people I mean nowadays now the phishing scams on emails are like even way better and harder to detect you know let alone like you open up an email and the next thing your whole wallet is hacked and you lose all your money, all your NFTs, like everything you get drained.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:11

It's it's yeah it's a scary it's a scary place.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:16

So I want to end on a positive note uh not that this hasn't been a very very very not that this hasn't been a very positive conversation what um what can we expect next from from Rio? Where where where is your work going now?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:31

Yeah man I'm I think I'm gonna keep asking questions I think that's that's only that I'm aspired to do I think I'm gonna continue to creep towards longer content. You know I've made a you know a handful of music videos I just made this two minute short a dialogue um mean another friend of mine named G shout out to G is another great director we have a few um short film concepts we're kind of like fleshing out and putting together but I I'm I am headed towards making you know a feature length film like that's where in and more of them I would love to create a franchise something that like a Star Wars or a matrix or something that is the hero's journey the new I remember when I walked into the Matrix and walked out a different person and that feeling that I that movie I want to be able to give that to a new generation you know that feeling of like someone knows me. They like I I I did a f and like all the things that are coming at me in this life like I can overcome them and and that because that's been the the story that has really transcended you know Joseph Campbell's a hero with a thousand faces right it's like how we've related to um you know the Odyssey and just even the Bible like so many stories about this character that has risen above um I I think that uh that's that's where I'm headed and I'm excited because as a music producer I always I usually score my things too um you know me being into interior design into fashion like and and all these characters I think it's the first time uh that I felt that all my little side quests all make sense as being a director because I can speak to those different things now. And yeah just telling more stories like really that's that's kind of what I want to do and what I'm gonna continue to do, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:43

Amazing. I feel like you're such a perfect example of of what AI can do because you have such a catalog of work that you've done in your career before AI was implemented that shows that you've put in the hours and you know everything on the back end and now AI is just simply getting you there faster. Yeah and and helping you. And that's why I always like refer to ChatGPT as my assistant because you know it's just helping me. It's just helping me do what if I had money I would have a team of 10 people that would do what ChatGPT is doing. And if you had more money or more time you would have a team of people helping you get to where you're going. So when you know when people hear or see this I I hope they they they get that from this podcast because um that that's how I feel and when I look at your work I I'm like this brother needs to put a series out like he needs a a a person like just like you said somebody that's gonna be the vehicle to tell that story and just go through all these worlds you know um whether it's like a series that you know is is uh episodic or it's just almost like the Twilight zone where there is no through person but this is your world that you're taking us through that that's that's actually something that I'm super excited about.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:09

I mean even um Black Mirror being another really inspiring thing for me too and um along those lines I've I've been watching old episodes of Alfred Hitchhart presents and that's another thing too right these these moments we people are are really fascinated by the surreal and um and just how it kind of can relate to real life.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:34

Because we all go there when we go to sleep.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:36

We all into this world that we can't really explain. Exactly and and if there are even like again like people always say man what did that dream mean? You know like it's up to interpretation. I love you know when I Inception was a huge inspiration to me because it's you know all about dreams and like when you walked out of the theater you're like what like what you know I I felt like I was in a dream watching that whole thing and and then later on it like the little things kind of trickle in and you're kind of like oh okay yeah I I love that that feeling in in film when you when you kind of yeah you walk away with something you walk away a little bit different. And um yeah that's when I I want to like I said I I think wanting to give that feeling back. I think someone once told me that life pours into you and at some point you have to pour into it right or else you're just full and just there's nothing left. I think I'm learned I've been poured into my whole life and have been gently pouring out but this this giving that feeling back to the next generation for a younger kid to to feel like I did when I watched some of those movies and be like man I want to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:52

I want to speak to that like I'm super excited about about getting to do that you know this is a perfect example where people always think that AI is taking us away from the self where I think if if we embrace it it's bringing us closer to the self and it's giving us the tool to really tap into the self which is isn't a very literal thing. It's way more abstract than than we think.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:15

Yeah so yeah I couldn't agree more I mean I think that like we've been saying this whole time it's a tool like I mean who's can use it for for what it's great at or you know it's just about you like how are you going to implement it? And that's what that's what the the question of it asks like it's just a chat box right it's just a chat box right like what are you going to ask? What do you want to know? We have the internet we can ask Google anything and what do people spend their time doing on the internet just doing nothing when you have access to all the information you know to learn whatever you want to learn it there's no there's no excuse now. Yeah exactly awesome so if somebody wants to get a hold of you I know you have your Instagram and your website what's the best way of of contacting you yeah there's my uh email is also in my bio link you know you can shoot me a DM or send me an email um and yeah that's kind of the best way.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:18

Real uh an hour and almost a half went by in in in what feels like 20 minutes. I really appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:23

Yeah man thank you again man for reaching out and this was great bro I loved all the questions that you asked I think there's a lot of people that wanted to ask me those same ones so it was good to kind of like think through it and and and answer them too.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:35

I appreciate you man Yeah man used to bro awesome thank you for listening to Shoe Wisely if you found something in this conversation that inspired you moved you or made you think a little differently please share it with someone who might need to hear it. Your support means a lot and it truly helps the show grow. If you enjoyed this episode please like subscribe and leave a review or comment on your favorite podcast platform. Those small actions make a big difference and help more people discover these conversations. I'm your host Amir Bahimi and remember create with intention live with curiosity and always shoot wisely