SABA Leader Connect
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SABA Leader Connect
Leader Connect S2E16: Trevin Wax
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This week on Leader Connect, we talk to Trevin Wax, who is vice president of resources and marketing at the North American Mission Board.
Hi folks, welcome to State and Team of LinkedIn Connect. Uh this year we're going to be focusing a little bit different than on just our associational ministers, but we're going to be reaching out across the state and Southern Baptist Convention to bring others into this opportunity for you to get to know them a little bit and find out how you might use them in ministry in your local church. So we hope you enjoy this episode. Hi folks, welcome to another episode of Leader Connect. And we're blessed to have uh Trevan Wax with us today. Trevin is the vice president of research and resource development with the North American Mission Board. Do I have that right, Trevin?
SPEAKER_00I think now it's resources and marketing, but we have to do a lot of research too.
SPEAKER_01So we updated your title a little bit. Okay, well, good. Well, welcome to Leader Connect, and we sure are glad to have you with us today.
SPEAKER_00Well, I appreciate the invitation. Glad to be here.
SPEAKER_01Well, tell us, if you will, a little bit about what your role is at NAM and a little bit of your background.
SPEAKER_00So uh I'm coming up on just five years since I went to the North American Mission Board to help develop a resources team that would uh be involved in putting together uh resources, free resources for pastors, for church planters, for uh some of our compassion ministry and disaster relief volunteers, some of speak into some of the training that we do with uh with church planters, um, help our evangelism team with their resources, just whatever we can do to to um uh to help advance the mission for uh uh pastors across the convention. That's been our our goal and our desire, and it's been an honor to serve there.
SPEAKER_01Very good. Well, and uh how where would they find these resources that you're speaking of?
SPEAKER_00You know, I'm thinking that the the most applicable thing I could say to most of the pastors that would be listening to this would be to go to nam.net slash pastors. And what you'll find is a pastors page that Ken Witten has been involved with, that our team has helped put some some good resources together. There's uh an email newsletter we send out once a month that is it's just things for pastors, you know, whether it's a checklist for ministry or preparing for Christmas stuff coming up, or uh, you know, just something that'll encourage uh the heart of the pastor. Um, there's that, there's also a lot that's relevant, even though you know there may not be um uh as many church planters listening, but I I guarantee there's probably a lot of pastors that you've got in your association that are uh doing some revitalization work. Yes. And uh I would just encourage uh one of the podcasts that we have is Revitalize and Replant uh with uh John Mark Clifton and uh uh with Mark Halleck. And that's a that's a great resource. That entire team, they do good work. Uh, I'd encourage that as well.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Good, good recommendation. Thanks for sharing that. Well, I I want to begin our conversation uh in the topic of church health. And I came across a quote of yours uh that I want us to try to unpack a little bit, and I'll read the quote because I won't get it right. Uh, the greatest challenge facing the church isn't simply false doctrine, it's being slowly discipled by the culture. Uh, can you sort of unpack that for us a little bit?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, I think sometimes we we we're almost we've got our antenna up and we're ready to respond quickly when we see something that is out of line with what the Bible teaches or what we believe the Bible teaches. Uh, but that's not generally always going to be the way that um uh you know that we get off track or that we drift from the truth. Sometimes it's the things that the culture can uh, you know, just the ways that we fit into society, the ways that we can uh accommodate our preferences, the questions that we're asking. These are the ways in which we can we can drift from the gospel. And maybe we we maybe we haven't disregarded the truth of a particular doctrine, like we still sign off on it, but our values, the way we live, the way that we interact in the world, we are more formed by the culture around us, by the people around us than we realize. And I think that's the the danger that we have to look for. It's not just, hey, do we believe the right thing? Yeah, but are we living in a way in which we actually our lives align with the truth?
SPEAKER_01That's that's awesome. I I agree with that wholeheartedly. Uh, and in your travel around the convention and being in a variety of different churches, what are you seeing as um, I hate to use the word trend, but I don't know a better way to say it, happening in churches, good and bad?
SPEAKER_00Um good and bad. Well, if we want to look at the younger generation, I think one of the good trends that I'm seeing is there's um a desire for closer relationship, okay? Uh uh kind of moving off just not everything being on the phone, but being in in person about particular things. I see that that's a good trend. Another trend I see is uh among younger believers is there's more of a hunger and a desire for rootedness in the sense of um understanding where we come from, uh in like church history, history, yeah. Yeah, doing some deeper digging into theology, kind of understanding, hey, this, you know, if uh uh the the root. I think some of that is when the cultural winds are blowing, the the tree's gotta have roots that go down deep if it's gonna stay standing. And I think there's that need that that that some younger Christians feel to to to to go down deeper into the roots. Um negative examples, I wouldn't say just completely negative, but um, you know, all of us in some ways have been shaped by uh a culture of what the sociologists would call expressive individualism, which just is that sort of you be you culture, be true to yourself, you know, follow your heart, chase your dream, pursue whatever you desire the most. Which sounds good. It does it it it does sound good. And you see this in like movies and music and TV shows. It sort of sort of passes for common sense in our time. Yeah, but I think one of the things that is uh a negative trend that uh a lot of pastors will tell me that we see this in our congregations is a lot of times you'll have people in church uh because they think the church will help them do that, be the best version of themselves they can be, achieve the goals that they've got, have some kind of moral foundation for their life. And uh the good news is a lot of those people are in church, the bad news is they may not be there for the right reason. So we've got to almost do some counterformation in our preaching and our teaching and our discipleship in order to say, hey, the the biblical storyline, the biblical vision of what God intends for you is so much greater than the be true to yourself worldview and mindset that's so prevalent today.
SPEAKER_01Well, can you can you elaborate on that a little bit more? How would you uh compare and contrast those?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, I think um I think one of the places you see the biggest contrast is in the the question of sin. So uh, you know, we look at the scriptures and where we see sin as, well, sin is the breaking of God's law, it's the the breaking of relationship with God. It's um, you know, it's it's a it's a we we we we notice that there's like that vertical dimension of what you know sin is is falling short of the glory of God, right? That's what sin is. Um in in our culture though, the the first and greatest commandment is to be yourself, and the second is like it affirm whatever self your neighbor wants to be. And so for us, one of the things we have to realize is when we are talking about sin, we have this sort of vertical dimension. But a lot of people, when they are thinking about sin, they're not thinking so much about falling short of the glory of God. Yeah, they're thinking failing to be true to themselves. So the greatest sin for a lot of people in our society is to fail to be true to yourself or to fail to affirm the self that your neighbor's trying to be true to. And so it's this weird reversal where a lot of the, you know, those of us that believe the Bible, that want to live according to God's commands, that want to embrace even the moral vision of Christianity, the sexual ethic of Christianity, um, suddenly we're seen as the greater sinners because we're we're preaching a kind of conformity, a conformity to Christ, a conformity to his ways, to his laws. And so uh, you know, where you can note, where you notice this comes out the most is um uh the solution to sin from a biblical perspective is repentance, right? It's that we turn from our sin, that we trust in God. The solution to sin from a worldly perspective, expressive individualism kind of perspective, is reassertion. That I I reassert my claim to be the ultimate leader in my life, you know, that I want to be the authority in my life, the ultimate authority. And so I think that's that's really where you see this come down. Sometimes you can have people, they might be going to church together for the longest period of time, but where you see that difference is when the question of sin comes about, and then suddenly you realize, oh, these people may, we may all be in the same congregation, but our orientation toward God, toward others, to the world, to ourselves might be vastly different, even in the same, the same congregation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, uh, as a word to our pastors, obviously, this is something that our culture is significantly dealing with. How does a pastor lead the congregation to be healthier in that respect of not pulling that cultural mindset in but sticking with the biblical truths that are there? How would you encourage a pastor to do that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's such a good question. I first I would tell a pastor um don't think that you're going to keep that mindset out of the church. You need to already assume that it's in the church. Yep. Okay. And if we're honest in us at some level, you know, this is a water we're swimming in, we'd be foolish to think that we're not influenced and shaped by our culture at some level.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, so first I would just tell the pastor, hey, assume that you have people in your congregation that at various levels and stages of their spiritual life uh are influenced by some of these cultural narratives and other worldviews more than more than you realize. So just go ahead and assume that. It's not just a problem out there, it's also a problem in here. And that's been true. That's not anything new to us. It's not new in Southeast Alabama, every every generation. And no matter where you live, you know, you the church has to deal with how do we not be syncretists, you know, how do we stand apart? So I think first first word of counsel to the pastor is assume it's there. Second is um to to to do what we can in our preaching and teaching to differentiate and help people's eyes be open to some of the things they may be assuming are true, but the Bible would actually challenge. Um, and that means we've got to do that for ourselves, but that means also for for our churches in our preaching, in our teaching, we want to have this element of you have heard it said in the world, but I or the Bible, Jesus, he says this to you, you know, and it's better.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, so that that's the second thing. The the third thing would be to say, um uh we need to lift up examples and celebrate examples of people who swim upstream this way. Okay, missionary stories, stories of people in church history who who went against the stream, uh, stories maybe of even people in your congregation who have done the harder thing because they're seeking to follow Christ. They've done the thing that doesn't make sense to the world. Yeah, they they turned down the job that would have paid better in another state because they their first priority, they they they say, you know what, I'm committed to my family, or I'm committed to this here, or I'm you know, the Lord's calling me to that. Things that don't make sense from a worldly ladder climbing success story, you know. Um, and then the last thing I would say is um uh in in in in in trying to push back against some of some of this mindset, um don't simply you know shout against the mindset that isn't biblical. Um, you've got to do so in a way that shows that the reason why we believe some of the false things we believe in the first place is because underneath that is a deeper longing that God has placed in our heart for something true. What happens is our longings get misdirected, our desires get disordered. Uh that's what that's what sin ultimately does. You know, we turn in on ourselves. Um, and so what you want to do is it should, the way I would say it is it should feel, you know, preaching and teaching in a way that that pushes against the culture should feel less like a screed against the culture and more like a prison break. That we've been chained to these different ways of thinking, and the Lord wants to set us free from that. The Lord wants to give us a better, richer, more glorious vision of who he is and wants our joy and happiness to be found in him. Uh it's that's what we're after. That's what we want for people is a closer relationship with Jesus that brings about the the lasting joy that he promises.
SPEAKER_01Sure, absolutely. Well, when you uh since our major theme uh is church health, when you think of a healthy church, what are some things that you think of are components of a healthy church?
SPEAKER_00Boy, that's a question that could take us a long, uh a long time to answer. Um uh it's sometimes it's easier to talk about an unhealthy church than it is to talk about a healthy church, in part because it's kind of like this with our physical bodies. We don't think about health as much when we're healthy. We think about health when we gotta go to the doctor, you know. Um, so I think I think sometimes that's the case with the church too. Um, you know, a healthy church is a church where the the majority of the congregation, where there's a a level of covenant commitment to each other, okay, uh to live in community, to encourage one another, to hold one another accountable, where where repentance is fresh and free, forgiveness takes place when we rub up against each other and we do the you know, we offend each other, or um, authority is not completely located in just the you know, the one pastor or just the the board of directors or the deacons or the you know however it uh the the church polity may be or the structure. You've you've seen it all, I'm sure. You know, committees to you know to trustees to deacons and elders, and we can have a conversation about about polity, but um the you know, the the the authority is such in the congregation that the church sees itself and the leaders as all under the lordship of Jesus Christ, first and foremost. Um, a healthy church is a place where God's word is opened and expounded upon faithfully, the gospel is presented, uh where there is uh um an evangelistic uh fervor in the congregation where people are happy to talk about Jesus, happy to invite other people to uh to see Jesus. Uh, and of course, it's a place where you know the ordinances are are practiced, where you see people baptized and where we we celebrate coming together to meet the Lord at his table uh together as a community of faith. And so um, you know, those are just some of the things that uh um I think are so important for the health of a congregation. And we generally speaking, pastors listening here, we're usually having to work on a bunch of those all at once in a congregation. But that's yeah, that's the nature. And and and when when a healthy church is when things are going well in a church and the church is healthy, boy, doesn't discipleship come easier. Absolutely, not that it's easy, yeah, but it sure is easier when there's a when there's a uh a body of believers who believes the gospel and is committed to living it out and reflecting the truth of the gospel and how we relate to one another.
SPEAKER_01Well, you you mentioned a couple of interesting words there, one of those being disciple, uh discipleship. Um, and we've been uh spending a little time focusing on Gen Z and Alpha and uh some interesting things that are happening in those generations or will be happening in those as they advance through and how they want to connect, the Gen Z want to connect with the older generations. How would discipleship work or look with those two coming together to disciple one another, in your opinion?
SPEAKER_00You know, I it's it's got to happen relationally, it's not a program that can do it. Now, a program can provide the context, okay, but I think what we see across the board in in our country is um uh the uh a program can facilitate and can help put people together, but relationally is where we have to we have to see this. And the good news here is um if you look at the statistics and the surveys and even the anecdotal evidence of Gen Z or Gen Alpha kids that you talk to, there's a hunger and a desire to learn from older folks. This is not a we're not in the 60s or 70s where it's just sort of everyone's sort of just you know dismissive of uh uh the older generation. This is a there young people are looking for direction.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um and and I think there's I think the challenge here goes both ways.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um I mentioned earlier a little bit about the about phones and phone usage or whatnot, and that you know, some of the some of the younger generation is is learning how to to to put away and be more present, put away the phone more than then I think I think it's something actually I've seen this happen before. Well, I'll have you know multiple generations around a table. Yeah, and you'd think, oh, it's the gen alpha kid that's gonna be on their phone the whole time, and no, it's grandma. Yeah, grandma can't put up the phone, you know. Um and so I mean, I think we've all got room to grow there, but um, there's some good challenge that can happen across the board um with uh uh you know across the generations, I think if we're uh if we keep those relational lines open, those communication lines open.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I know you said you've had some intergenerational folks sitting around the table. Um what what were your what was the goal when you got brought those folks together? What was their conversations like uh to facilitate that relationship building, if you will?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh a lot of time that that's gonna happen in the context of family. So first and foremost, we we need we need we need that those intergenerational relationships to happen family-wise. It's more difficult in our time, and I'm sure the pastors listening to this know a lot of people don't live close to family, they don't live close to extended family. They may, you know, there's some people like myself. I mean, I live in the town I was born in that I grew up in. I mean, I went all overseas to Romania and did missions and wound up coming back here. But I mean, I've got deep, deep roots where I live. But I'm a lot of people, my city's really grown a whole lot in the last 20 years. A lot of people here don't have that. Um, people don't live close to family. And so the question then becomes well, what does it look like for the church to be that kind of support system, that kind of family where you know, older folks, you know, can consider themselves not just grandfathers and grandmothers to their own, you know, grandkids that may not live close by, but how do I how do I love and support the the kids in my congregation? You know, how do I how do I help the frazzled mom that's you know about you know when it comes to parenting and things like that? Yeah, I don't recommend younger people going to older people and saying, Hey, will you mentor me? That's kind of an awkward thing. I just recommend younger people seeking out older people saying, Hey, can you tell me about what this was like? Or you know, did you ever have this when you've been married 40 years? What was it like at this stage? Like help me out here because you what and I I put the I do put the um I I put the the impetus on the younger generation to seek out the older, but I then I I I encourage the younger, younger, the older folks to realize, you know, until the Lord takes you home, you're not shelved. You've got you've got uh you've got insight and wisdom to give, and you need to be ready to give it. Uh to look for opportunities to be able to to speak into to the lives of younger people who are looking for that kind of uh counsel.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I like the way you were headed with that conversation, uh, in that it's not a younger person walking up to a senior adult and saying, Hey, can you explain the book of Revelation to me? That's right. That's right. It's about, you know, hey, man, I'm struggling here. Y'all been married 45, 50 years, and we're three years in. And what kind of things did you deal with? Now the context may have been a little bit different, but the problems are generally the same. Uh, through gender.
SPEAKER_00Humans are humans.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00People are people, yes, regardless of the generation. It's definitely the case. And I do think, you know, there's something really special too when it's older men and younger men, older women, younger women. I mean, we see that in the scriptures. That's right. That's right. And that that that pattern is is there. And it's a it's a beautiful thing when you see that fleshed out in the life of a local church. That's where even in an older church that may be more established. Um the the multi-generational aspect of a church can be one of the real strengths of a uh of an established church that's going through revitalization. Really can be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I you know, we have several smaller churches here and they're primarily senior adults. And I say, if you guys will play to your strong suit, you have an advantage because you've got years and years and years of walking with the Lord. And if you'll put yourself out there, these younger people will be attracted to that opportunity to come worship together and get to do life together with you. And exactly what you said, they may not have parents or grandparents close by because we are such a mobile society, and people don't live and stay in their hometown like they used to, uh, as near as much. And so they're looking for those folks that they can count on and and uh draw wisdom and strength and encouragement from. So you're spot on there. Good job. Good job. What else are you seeing in church life uh in the way of um pastor? I know there's pastors have a variety of styles of preaching, some preach empty, some preach books of the Bibles, some take just seasons of uh pastoring preaching. Uh are you seeing one take prominence over another?
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, I can give you my personal opinion on different things uh uh related to this. I I can because I don't see one trend that's dominant when it comes to preaching and teaching. Um I do think what, and this is different than probably 40 years ago, but I do think expositional preaching is more the norm rather than the exception today, okay. Or is is is more of an expectation than it used to be. Um I I say that expository or expositional preaching, broadly speaking, sure people have different definitions of exactly what that looks like.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but uh but I also noticed that there's a um, you know, that it that doesn't always work out in itself today uh in the way that maybe 20 years ago. The the way that expositional preaching kind of came back on the scene was you preach book by book. And I mean, just sort of the John MacArthur style of just I'm gonna go through. And I see I see less of that today. I see more of um seasons like if if you're gonna go through a book, for example, like Gospel of John or something, you may do several chapters of the Gospel of John for a season, then you're being another book for a little season. Maybe you'll have a more thematic or Christmas advent kind of a thing, and then you go back to the Gospel of John and do some more. And so may you may finish a you may finish a book of the Bible over a few years with a bunch of other series in between. I see that happening more as just, you know, I think pastors, I think the reason for that is pastors realize we live in a more and more transient society, especially in cities. Um, and you don't have people sometimes, you'll have people only in your church for two or three years sometimes before they're moving on to the next career or whatever. And so pastors are having to think, okay, well, I'm not gonna spend if I only got two years with this person, potentially, I don't want to spend just a full year just in one gospel. They need to have a steady diet of other kinds of biblical books and genres and things like that. And so I think that's one of the reasons why you'll see some of that taking place. But um uh I do, I I do think, and I'll just tell pastors this. I and I say this myself too, I'm constantly trying this on my when I'm going and preaching different places, different conferences and churches and interim pastorates I've had. Um I I tell pastors you almost always preach longer than you should. I just say, uh, you know, the pastors are like, oh, I I can keep everyone for 45. I'm like, it's probably more like 35 that you can keep them. You know, the pastor that says, no, I can do an hour, it's probably more like 40. You know, like I just would encourage pastors, um, do do do the homework and get that, you know, crunch that down. Get get down to the the basics, give a a great, a great meal, prepare a great feast for your people. Um, but but you you you want to make that as as as concentrate and potent as possible. Uh so I I tell pastors, just don't overestimate your ability and don't overestimate your your congregation's attention span as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's right. That's right. And that's that is one of the things that I think culture has uh created that climate where we the attention span is not what it once was uh in all generations. Uh TV and other things have programmed us to take commercial breaks and do all of those things. So yeah, you're right. It's hard to maintain a uh one of my pastors. If I can't say it in 20, 25 minutes, it's uh you it can't be said. And so I think he's on the right track there that you know uh ton of things to share, but you may not need to share it all.
SPEAKER_00Have you heard that uh I think it was I it may be legendary, but I think it's true that the that uh quip from Abraham Lincoln where he said, uh um I I I I didn't have enough time to write you a shorter letter, so here's the long one. Because it is, it's it's work, it's hard work to it is to to you know to to chop down to the bare essentials and to try to. I I just personally I love in preparing sermons, I love the constraint of knowing. And the way I do it is the way I format, you know, I kind of I like to write everything out and then go over it a bunch of times to where it's not like I'm reading it, I'm you know, but I've got it all in my head and it's in my heart and I've got it on my got my notes down. Um, but whether you preach from a manuscript or from an outline or whatever it might be, I love the constraint of of knowing, okay, I got to get this into this window. Yeah, and that that that constraint helps me creatively, I think, to be, you know, to try to be as creative as possible as a preacher.
SPEAKER_01Good deal. Well, I'm gonna ask you about one other term here that uh picked up in some of your writings, uh cultural apologetics.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Uh can you unpack that one for us a little bit?
SPEAKER_00So traditional apologetics is generally focused on making an intellectual or rational defense for the gospel, right? And you've got different, you've got different camps of apologetics. You have your evidentialist type, you know, the Josh McDowell evidence that demands a verdict type. You've, you know, you've got your um uh like a William Lane Craig, or you know, you've got your um classical apologetics where you prove the existence of God and then you use evidence to prove the resurrection of Jesus and you kind of move uh uh through that. You've got um a presuppositional apologetics, which is this idea that you know uh we can't even have the apologetics conversation until we realize the underlying assumptions uh that we have as people and kind of how to unpack the, you know, uncover the heart there. You have eclectic types like Francis Schaefer, who would draw on different different types for for whatever. Cultural apologetics is not, doesn't really stand in opposition to the other camps. It's more of a way of saying, you know, some of what we do in the apologetic task when we're defending the faith is not simply providing rational reasons for Christianity, but also demonstrating the beauty and goodness of Christianity alongside the truth. And it's answer it's asking the question um uh not just what you know what Christianity in opposition to other belief systems, but it's seeking to uncover the fact that everybody comes to the faith with a belief system already, even the atheist or the secularist. They have a belief system. So cultural apologetics wants to uncover that, to show that belief for what it is, but then to show how the gospel is not only true, but also more beautiful and better than the story that that's being told there. So it's it's seeking to emphasize the beauty of Christian truth. And we find that that's the case in a lot of young people. There are a lot of younger people where the the question maybe 20 years ago was Um, I don't believe Christianity because I don't believe it could be true. Is Christianity true? A lot of the questions today is is Christianity good for the world? Okay, is it beautiful? Is the church a force for good in the world? Like there are a lot of the apologetics answers that we have to ask, I've got to lean into those directions. So cultural apologetics isn't meant to supplant all the other approaches, it's really meant to bring a different, it's like having a number of golf clubs in the in the golf bag, you know, it's sometimes you're gonna use a different club for different things. Sure. That's probably not a good analogy because we don't really use clubs when we're talking to people about the gospel. But but you get what I'm saying. Like we want to we want to target and we want to refine as a way of loving our neighbor. We want to speak to the person across from us, to the to the real heart issues that they have. And cultural apologetics is one way of of of um removing certain obstacles so that we can allow the light of the gospel to really shine through with people when we do evangelism.
SPEAKER_01That's very good. That's very you I'm gonna pick up on that last word that you said, the evangelism. How do how do you see the evangelism approach uh different today than it was, say, 20 or 25 years ago? Uh I know in some of some churches um they don't even have invitations the way that we've accustomed to in most church life, you know, coming forward. So are what are you seeing in the way of evangelism?
SPEAKER_00Well, too little of it, unfortunately. Um I think we'd all say that, and I think most pastors resonate with that, that it's a it's a challenge for, I mean, quite frankly, it's a challenge for ourselves, not just for our congregation. You know, I've been you know convicted by the you know the question of well, if everyone in my congregation did evangelism as well as I do, what where would we be? You know, like I think we all have to ask that question. Yeah, sure. Um what one of the things that's changed, several things have changed. Uh, one one thing is um we we see less in terms of programs for evangelism, uh, in part because people come to the to people come with from so many different backgrounds. You remember I I was trained in faith evangelism back in the day, and I love faith evangelism and I love doing faith evangelism. But one of the things about faith evangelism when the when it came out when I was trained in it was in the southeast where I was serving, most of the time that that that approach to evangelism really does assume some level of familiarity with people because you're looking for either the faith answer or the work answer when it comes to heaven. Well, now with a lot of people, and you'll find this true even in Southeast Alabama, a lot of this, a lot of it today is uh you go up several steps. You can't assume people even have the sort of categories. Oh, that's right. God, sin, heaven, hell, you know, where people are coming from all over the place. Yeah, so that makes it more difficult to do the sort of formula kind of evangelism. Although I will say, biggest evangelistic resource that we have at North American Mission Board is the one that was developed by Jimmy Scrogans at Three Circles. I mean, that is that has gone far and wide, is translated and all over the world. I mean, I still find that to be a helpful evangelistic tool that can be adapted, very easily adapted to whoever you're talking to. So I still think there's a place for that. But I think where we've got a where we where most evangelism is what is centered today, the conversation is how do we get to know our neighbors and start wherever they're coming from and then bring bring the Lord into the conversation in a way that is actually answering their their heart needs. Yeah, that's harder than a formula. Uh and it it takes intentionality in our part. I love how Calvin Miller used to talk about how the he used to say the um the art of evangelism or no, the the task of evangelism begins with the art of looking around, really seeing the people that the Lord puts in our path. Yeah, and I I feel convicted by that because a lot of times I just I mean I'm a tunnel vision kind of I'm going there and doing this and doing that. I know a lot of that, you know, I'm a task-oriented, but the Lord does want us to open our eyes and see the people he's put next to us, the neighbors he's brought into our community. And I I think that's a challenge for all of us, not just our own people and our churches, it's a challenge for us as church leaders and pastors as well.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And it it is that word you used intentionally. Uh, otherwise, we can go through our day and and miss the opportunities because we're focused on something else and and sharing our faith or uh having gospel conversations isn't on the list, or if it is, it's down here somewhere, or people feel unqualified. Well, that's true.
SPEAKER_00And I just want to tell people listen, just talk about Jesus. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, evangelism is just talking about Jesus.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly right. You know, right. Well, Trevor, thanks for sharing with us today. And I want to give you an opportunity as we close out our time together. Uh, is there any particular word of encouragement uh that you would like to share with our pastors and leaders uh in the area of uh growing a healthier church? They may already have a reasonably healthy church, but every church can be healthier. We can all do things a little bit better, we can all exercise a little bit more or eat healthier to make our bodies healthier. But what can how can a pastor help his church become healthier?
SPEAKER_00I think the pastor needs to think about the long game, not be frustrated in the short term. Obviously, the apostle Paul had lots of reasons to be frustrated with the churches he was writing, you know, like we some more than others. Yeah, uh, if the apostle Paul had challenges in his churches, who are we to think we're not gonna have challenges? That's right, for sure. Um, think of the long game, trust the word to do the work over time, uh, and make small steps, you know, prioritize and preserve the unity of the church as well. There may be some things you want to incorporate into your church that is going to bring about health over the long haul. Sure. That's great. You want to do that in a way, though, that continues to prioritize and strengthen the unity of the church. So do that carefully, you know, uh uh wisely. Uh you know, you're moving the the church in a particular direction, in the right direction, uh under the authority of the Lord and the authority of his word, together with the other uh pastors that you may have, or if you're a single person on staff, you know, with your deacons, with other leaders in your congregation, but you're you're you're you're trying to just move the church and leave that church better than you found it. And at the end of the day, I just encourage pastors with this. Uh I've done several interim pastorates, but there's a sense in which we're all interim. Yeah, well, true. Most of the time the church is going to be, it was there before we got there, and the church most of the time is going to be there when we're when we leave. Yeah. And so we need to be thinking about where where we want, where the Lord would have us to help take that church in the time that the Lord gives us to serve that church well.
SPEAKER_01Good word, good word. Well, Trevin, thanks so much for being with us today. And uh, folks, thanks for watching and listening to another episode of Leader Connect. And we hope you find it helpful and we'll continue the conversation.