Why Great Leaders Focus on People, Not Position | #leadwithlegacy | Episode 13

What makes someone a truly effective leader?

In this episode of the Lead with Legacy™ Podcast, Dr. Jim Chambers sits down with Chris McClure and A. Brian Leander, Ph.D. for a powerful conversation on leadership development, coaching, influence, personal growth, and the legacy leaders leave behind.

This episode explores the difference between managing people and genuinely leading them through trust, care, and intentional influence. Chris shares lessons from ministry, executive coaching, and business leadership, while Brian and Dr. Chambers unpack the role of mentorship, growth, and investing in others.

In this episode, you will discover:

• Why leadership starts with serving people
• How influence differs from authority or manipulation
• Why teachability and coachability matter for growth
• How leaders shape culture from the inside out
• Why mentorship can change the trajectory of a life
• The importance of helping others succeed
• How legacy is built one person at a time

This conversation is full of wisdom for leaders in business, ministry, education, and everyday life.

🔔 Subscribe for leadership insights, honest conversations, and practical wisdom you can apply immediately.

🌐 Learn more about IOL Global:
www.iolglobal.com

Learn more about A. Brian Leander, Ph.D:
https://www.abrianleander.com/

Connect on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/abrianleander/

Connect with Chris McClure:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisrmcclure/

Learn more at:
https://mcclurecoaching.com/

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Contact our team to book a time to be on the Lead with Legacy™ Podcast:
https://iolglobal.com/podcast

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Lead with Legacy, the official podcast of IOL Global. Here we will explore leadership that outlives titles and trends. Through conversations with faith-based and marketplace leaders, we will discuss integrity, conviction, and purpose. To learn more about us, visit us at iOL Global dot com.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Hey, here we are. Chris McClure. It's been way too long since we've connected, but we're really excited to have you on today. And uh also my partner in crime, Brian Leander, Dr. Leander from Berkeley's on with us. We're blessed to have him and I. Between he and I, we might let Chris have a conversation. But Chris, you and I go way back as well as I think you and Brian go back further because I met you through Brian when uh we all lived in Atlanta. And uh that's been quite a few years ago. And so let's start out. We'll just give us a little bit about where you are now, what you're doing now, and then we'll back up to the past. But give us a little history, kind of what you're doing now with uh all this coaching stuff that you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Yeah, absolutely. So back in 2015, I started my leadership coaching and training business. Um it was uh it was one of those left turns in my career path that I didn't ever, I just never expected it, never anticipated it, but it was something I know God ordained and really, really set me on a trajectory. And it actually will go back a little bit, but it started with you guys in a lot of ways in our engagement fit over 15 years ago. And I I didn't see how God was shifting me at that time like like I am now. But I was a pastor for 20 years doing youth ministry, and then I was an executive pastor. I moved to Dayton, Ohio, which is where I am now in the Dayton, Ohio area back in 2012. And my wife and I have three kids here that are young adults now. So we are we are dealing with, you know, teenagers almost a 20-year-old and uh college and graduations and all these things. Yeah, back in 2015, I started coaching and training business leaders and really just a passion of mine of leadership development and really trying to just help outside the walls of the church that I had really been living in for quite a while and just saw a need and was super excited to jump into this world, had no clue what I was doing, still wonder if I do half the time, 10 years later. Um, but I'm having a blast. It's great to connect with the community, connect with different local business leaders as well as even globally now with people. So it's been quite the journey, quite the ride, and a lot of faith stretching and building, but it's been excellent.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

No, that's great. And I'm excited about it because I know back years ago when we first met in Atlanta, you had talked about your real desire. And you could tell you had a real heart for helping, helping others develop and grow. And so when I heard about what you were doing, I was really excited. Brian, jump in and talk a little bit about your past history with Chris because I met Chris through you when you and I worked together at uh at IOL in Atlanta.

SPEAKER_04 3:15

Yes, I met Chris uh in Atlanta when he was in a a leadership role. I think you were an executive pastor then or or I was actually a youth pastor. You guys helped me move into that role more, right? And uh the church he was a part of engaged us as consultants in helping them to develop a strategic plan at a pretty critical time in in their life cycle. And Chris, I remember about you that you ate it up. You you ate up the idea of looking at the church as an organization and uh thinking strategically about that. And so I'm not surprised at all at the trajectory uh that you've taken since then. It's good to see you and hear more of your story.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Yeah, same here. I I remember Chris diving in and really kind of taking the lead on a number of things when we were doing uh our internal audits, our external audits of the community, when we when we were doing our our ministry-based strategic planning process. So I'm not surprised either that you know God has led you off into this direction because really it involves a whole lot of the gift of helps. That's a big strong thing. You gotta be you gotta have a desire to see other people succeed and help them in order to do any kind of consulting work. And uh without that desire to help someone else succeed, you're not gonna get very far. And and that was pretty clear. How did working, let's say, as an as a youth pastor, executive pastor, different roles, how did that prep you now for helping other people with their leadership? Because I'm from my my understanding of what you're doing now, you've got a broad spectrum of um of leaders that you're coaching, leaders, managers, business owners, and so on.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah, I think a lot of it just, you know, I heard John Maxwell say a long time ago, probably 30 years ago, at a conference, that if you want to test your leadership skills and grow, work in a volunteer organization because you know, they're not attached to a paycheck to listen to you. You have to lead them from a place of influence and really working, you know, with them. And and I remember that vividly back in back when I first heard that. And I thought, well, you know, it makes sense. I mean, I was in the church world and that's the reality I faced. I, you know, anybody could quit as a volunteer at any point at a point in time. Anyone could move on, right? So for me, I just knew that, you know, I had I had nothing to hang over their head. I just I needed to inspire and equip and help, right, to to get them to do the things we needed done. And so I think a lot of it was just being in that environment where that was the norm and you just had to do that. It really gave me a perspective that was different than business when you had people with their livelihood and paychecks, you know, at your disposal, in essence, right? To leverage. I think that was a big part of it, Jim, was just realizing leadership when you don't have leverage, like a lot of people utilize, which I would argue isn't even necessarily leadership, but you know, they they think they are in those cases sometimes. And so I think just a lot, a lot about just caring for people and helping people be successful and helping them see the path forward for themselves and how they they contribute. And I think I think just so all of it, and working with teenagers as a youth pastor, right? Like that's even a different animal, right? It's one thing to lead the the adult volunteers. It's another thing to lead kids that are just naturally gonna push back on things. I think it just probably set me up in ways that I like I had no idea at the time what God was doing, you know, 15, 20 years down the road, obviously, but it certainly set the groundwork, I think, for what I am doing now, working with a variety of leaders in different types and sizes of organizations.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Yeah, that's uh you're bringing up something that I haven't thought about for ages. And Brian, I'd like you to dive in. We're kind of free-flowing on this one because we all know each other. And uh so this idea that working with volunteers first in your early development as a as a leader, manager, whatever you want to call it. Brian, I know you did the same thing. You you've had to work with people, you're not paying them, you're not, they're not getting a big paycheck, you're not the boss, you don't have they don't have to do what you tell them to do. And so maybe you could talk to us a little bit about your experience of influencing people to do what they need to do, as opposed to, hey, here's a here's a paycheck and a bonus and a system.

SPEAKER_04 7:50

Well, Jim, you said the word. I think a lot of it has to do with how we relate to them through influence. So, yeah, Chris, I would love to hear more about how you use influence. How do you leverage influence to help to motivate and inspire people who are really coming along in the organization because they're they they want to do something, right? They want to do something well. So, how do you lead people through influence?

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Yeah, to me, it's it's really, you know, I even write in my book, and I know we're gonna talk a little bit about that down the road here, maybe a little bit later, but you know, one of my essential actions I talk about in my book is loving people. And I talk in that about what is what does love have to do with leadership in that chapter? And really what I framed it as and and talk to people about is do you genuinely care enough about the people that you're leading so that you do the things you need to do to help them be successful? Because if you're just in a position, if you just have a title and a role, but you really don't care about them and their personal development, as well as their personal life, even, you're just not going to operate at a level that I think that influence really is impactful and motivating. So when I was a college intern, I was, well, first of all, before that, I was not a reader. I didn't, I was not a great student. I kind of did it just to get through, right? I was never going to be on the Brian Lander track of being a professor. But when I was leaving an internship, somebody gave me John Maxwell's book, Becoming a Person of Influence. That was my first personal growth and leadership book I ever read. And it was transformational in my whole thinking and my whole career path because it showed me that it wasn't about positions and titles, and it was about relationships. It was about really investing in the people that are under your charge. And that could be one person or it could be hundreds of people, right? So how do I care for the people that I'm responsible for? And so for influence, what I've seen in my own journey and my success as a leader is when I care for people, when I show up for them, when I make sure that they know that I'm I'm in their corner and want the best for them and I want to help them, even if it takes them in a different direction. I've had le people leave our organizations over the years where they just knew after like a decade of doing what they were doing that they needed to do something different. And a lot of leaders would have fought to try to convince them to stay and do otherwise. Instead, I was like, well, how do we help you move down that path to achieve that vision? And so I cared about them as an individual first and foremost, and secondarily, you know, to the organization's needs, because I figure we could find somebody to do the jobs that are that are going to be vacated, but I don't want somebody there that is resentful and frustrated and stagnant, right? So to me, I think it comes down to that. Do you genuinely care for people? Because when when they know you care, right? When they know you care, I think you automatically gain some level of influence. And then when you really express it and how you're treating them, I just think that multiplies.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

So how is influence different than directing and maybe further down the road even manipulating? I I really want to amplify this definition of what it means to influence people.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Yeah. Well, I think it's it's what's your motivation, right? I think for me is where are you coming from? So I actually just read a book about persuasion and how persuasion can be positive or manipulative, right? If you're not careful. So I think it's it's kind of the same thing where influence to me is I'm trying to help you be successful in your goals and your vision and your dreams alongside how we can be successful as an organization, as a team. Whereas directiveness is you're gonna, I'm gonna tell you what to do no matter what. Like influence, I would say it includes them. Direct to being a directive leader is more about I'm telling, I'm not including as much. It's it's giving them the checklist and and demanding, and it can be demanding in a even in a gentle way, but it's still directive, right? It's still demanding. Whereas I think with influence, it's inclusive, inclusive, where you're saying, come alongside me, let's let's figure this out. And you make you have these responsibilities, but I'm responsible as well to help you be successful. So that's how I would kind of differentiate is is really what's the heart behind it and your approach.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

So Chris, when you're working with secular leaders, it doesn't mean they're not, might be people of faith, but if you're in a secular organization, okay, not a church or religious or a community organization, something like that. So how do you help those leaders understand the value of what Brian's talking about is the care aspect, the influence. How do you help them to shift? Because I know in my long career of working with businesses, sometimes the folks in these secular organizations don't view their role as a leader the same way you might do that in a pastoral role.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Sure. Well, I think some of it is, you know, helping them understand what do they value, what what do they want if they're being led. So it's it's that whole idea of how it's how do you want to be treated? And and thinking of, okay, well, if you want to be treated a certain way, then why would you not think that others would want to be treated, you know, as well. So I think some of it is framing it that way too. It's you know, it's the golden rule, right? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you and and some level. I also think under helping them understand that when you truly invest in people and you truly do this, what we're talking about, where you're you're you're making it uh as a win for them, then I think what happens is they start to see, okay, this can be a win-win, right? Like if I can make them understand that I truly am for them in their corner, then I'm gonna actually get the results I'm desiring as a leader from them, but I have to kind of go first and show them that I'm I'm willing to put myself out there. So I think so. Some of it, Jim, to your point is keeping the end result in mind, you know, is I remember even I this was you. You I remember you saying this uh back in 2008 or nine when we were going through the you said something about leadership is getting things done through your people.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

And I never yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Yeah, I had never framed it that way. You know, I hadn't thought of it that way.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Yeah, I was talking to someone yesterday in our community who leads uh uh uh a volunteer organization. Um I was saying to her, you know, what leadership is getting stuff done through other people, if you're doing it all. In your in these 18 essential actions of magnetic leadership, I don't have one of your books with me. So tell us a little bit about what you do in those 18 things. How'd you come about that?

SPEAKER_01 14:28

So John Maxwell has been critically influential in my journey of uh because you know, for the longest time, he was the only guy I knew out there that was teaching leadership and speaking about leadership in my, especially my early formative years as a leader. But you know, in his 21 year feudable laws of leadership, he talks about the law of magnetism, that that who you are is who you attract. And, you know, I I had heard that and thought about that and understood it at a certain level for many years. And then I started asking the question is well, well, what what truly is a person that's magnetic? That, you know, we we hear that terminology and you know, especially now with all the influencers in the world and all the things, right? So for me, I started really exploring that. Like what truly attracts people to you, but also what, you know, honestly, a magnet also repels. And I deal with that in the book a little bit too, that you know, you're gonna attract the right people, you're gonna maybe repel the wrong people, and that's that's okay. You gotta be okay with that. So basically what these 18 essential actions are are they're character-based actions. And I'm big on implementation. That's why I call them essential actions, because they're things that if you apply these consistently, and I think consistency is an X factor in leadership, by the way. Uh, but if you apply these 18 things consistently, then you will start to attract people and they'll want to be a part of your team. They'll want to follow you, but they'll also, you'll also build a culture. And that's where I'm going even deeper more and more now, five years later, after first publishing this book, I'm now looking at the next level of magnetic teams. What makes a team magnetic? And so I'm working on that project. But but to me, Jim, it really comes back to it's character based, it's character first. You know, I'm not going to do these actions if I don't have the character to do them. So, for instance, the first essential action is about meeting needs of your people. And I talk about it's not just about having meetings, you know, we have to have meetings in organizations to keep aligned and keep on track for sure. But if you really don't meet with your people, you don't know how to truly meet their needs to help them. And I heard at a conference years ago, I heard a speaker say that he was doing a 90-day review with one of his employees and just asked, How can I help your job be better? How are, you know, how are things going? How can things be better? And and she kind of shyly said, Well, I could use a better paper cutter. And he said, You know, as ridiculous as that request sounded, he said he had his assistant get her a new new paper cutter, and it made her job better, it made her life easier and what she was doing in her tasks. And it just made all the difference in the world. But if he hadn't met with her and spent time understanding how she was doing in her first 90 days, how she was, you know, seeing things and what she needed, he wouldn't have been able to meet that need. So I talk about you meet with people intentionally to meet needs. So that's just one example.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

Great example.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Yeah, I'm talking about uh, you know, are you developing people? Are you equipping people to be successful? But once again, if it goes back to that caring about their their development and their best interest, not just yourself and the organization. So these 18 actions, like I said, they're they they all are basically action steps. I even talk about within each uh, you know, essential action as I walk you through how to do it, but they're they're very much about intentionality. And that's when I'm coaching leaders, they'll even bring that up to me. They're like, Chris, do you know how much you talk about being intentional? And I'm like, I I don't think about it anymore because it's just it's second nature to me that we have to be intentional to do these things well.

SPEAKER_04 17:52

You know, Chris, you also talk about the growth of the leader. So previously you said that the leader influences the growth of their people, and we Jim and I both agree with that. Jim was a leadership scholar that inspired me.

SPEAKER_03 18:11

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_04 18:13

Very early on in my relationship with him, he set me on a growth path. Brian, I think you should do and he Jim's great at suggesting things, but you know what he really means. So, Brian, I think you should do these things. And and to the best of my ability, I follow those things. And I believe they led to some growth. But I want you to tell me more about, especially things that you've written in your book, related to as the leadership, the leader grows, other people grow. Let's focus on the leader. What are some some of the keys to that leader growing?

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Absolutely. So one of the essential actions I talk about in in the book is remaining teachable. My second internship in college, I had a summer internship with a youth pastor, and when I was leaving that for to go back to college that that fall, he said, Chris, don't ever stop being teachable. He said, You have a teachable mindset and heart about you, don't stop being teachable. Previously, just a couple of years prior to that, my youth pastor, who he was a huge influence on my life and in my journey, that he was one who told me what I didn't want to hear at the time when I was going into college. He's like, leaders are readers. And he said, You can't stop growing. And so I've had these two guys in my corner, right, that early on in my career path at 18, 19, 20 years old, who were telling me I need to read, which I didn't want to be a reader at the time, but I was being told if you want to be a great leader, you need to grow and learn. And reading is a critical pathway to that. As you can tell behind me, I've got a lot of books. Uh, that's changed in my career. So I've read a lot now. But it all started back then, but but it was that being a having a teachable mindset, a teachable spirit about me, that I give so much credit to being able to be doing what I'm doing today. And so I think that's a key part of it, Brian, is as a leader, you know. So what I've really developed even recently and kind of got more clarity about even the framework of my magnetic leadership system that I talk about is phase one is really leading yourself, you know, and then phase two is then leading others. Phase three is about building culture in a team and an organization, and phase four is about building a cult uh looking at the organization as a whole, but it's an inside-out job. So I think as a leader, we have to start with us. It can't end with us, but it has to start with us so that we're we're able to pass along and share. It's that whole idea that, you know, you can't pour out of an empty cup, right? You can't share with other people if you're not pouring into yourself. And so remaining teachable is huge. I also talk about, I talk about this term, uh demonstrating nobility. It's about integrity, it's about character, it's about how do you what kind of character do you have? Are you the kind of person that's worth following? Do people really trust you and want to be around you because you have a noble character? And I say even in the book I talk about that's not a word, no nobility is not a word we use very much anymore. I I even talk about it's more, it feels more medieval, right? About knights and shining armor and all this. But nobility being the kind of person that that I think A honors God first and foremost, but B honors your people and and just how you show up. And and so those are personal things that if you're not doing those, um, you're not gonna be able to ultimately have the kind of influence that I think most people really want and expect to have, but it starts, it's that inside job and it's an inside out process.

SPEAKER_04 21:32

Go ahead, Brian. So my follow-up, I think as we move forward, people will grow to see that you are an expert in in the area of leadership and leadership development and how to connect leadership development to the culture of the organization. But I think one thing they need to know about you is that you're a leadership coach as well. So I want to go back to Teachability. Let's talk about coachability. How does a coach help a leader to grow? And how how have you experienced coaching yourself?

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Well, I think some of it is, I think everybody needs a coach. And I think that coaching, and I'm not, that's not just a shameless plug, but I even think if you look at it from the sports world, right? I mean, Tiger Woods, as great as he has been and is and was, you know, he gives a lot of credit to the coaches that he's had along the way to help him fine-tune his golf swing, right? Michael Jordan had had coaches that made him the great athlete he was, and all, and so forth and so on. Having that coach in the corner, knowing that you're not alone, I think is so, so critical. And I think I think it's definitely more common today than it would have been even 20 years ago and beyond, for sure. It's it's much more of a common practice. But I think for me, you know, Brian, one of the times I so there's a client I have, he's a good friend of mine, actually. I've been working with him since the very beginning. He was like one of my first clients. And every first quarter of the year, we get together for a few coaching sessions, and he just wants to get his mind right on the year and with his business that he owns. And I asked him one time, because I started to feel like, well, are sessions valuable? Like I hope they are, but are they valuable? Right. I asked him, I was like, what value are you getting? He's like, honestly, I don't have somebody to talk to about this stuff. He says, I'm leading my team, I'm leading my organization. He's like, I just, it's just great to have somebody that can be objective and be that third party that that can help me see blind spots or challenge my thinking on things. And so as a coach, I think it's and the coachability factor, right, for leaders is being willing to be wrong, even or or be having your opinions or ideas tested and challenged. So I think for me, you know, I ask a lot of questions and I'm and I dig in. I'm very curious. And that's what that's what really led me to coaching is I love people. I love learning about people. I kind of geek out on learning about different businesses and how people are doing things. And I, and just by nature, when I'm asking questions about their business, they end up kind of going, you know what? I I need to think deeply deeply about that. I need to go into that more. And so a lot of it for me is is not coming in as an expert telling them what they should do all the time, right? Like I can consult and help people in certain ways, yes. But many times it's helping them really understand blind spots or to just even verbalize things that they that they haven't shared with anybody. I was actually literally right before this interview, a good friend of mine that I worked with out of church years ago. She's like, I've got so many plates spinning, so many balls in the air. I just can we just sit down and talk. So I'm trying to process all the stuff in my head. She's a highly effective leader and doing great things, but she's scattered and she feels it and she's trying to sift through and simplify. And so, you know, just recognizing that having that person in your corner helping you process things, helping you see things differently and from different angles and perspectives. And I know for me, Brian, one of the things that that's been so valuable about teaching or being teachable for myself is all the things I read, all the things I I learn, and whether it's even going to a conference, hearing speakers, whatever it may be, for me, what I what really hit me, I feel like God said to me one day when I was kind of doing this self-doubting thing years ago, he said, Chris, you are reading and learning in a way for people that they aren't doing for themselves. And so all the education you're doing that you you enjoy now is benefiting. It's like you're a library of resources now for the people you're coaching and training and helping them. And it was just a perspective of, you know what, a lot of people don't slow down to educate themselves, to pour it in themselves. But as a coach, I can come alongside and bring out kind of a vast wealth of resources and knowledge that I've learned over the years, experiences as well as book knowledge. And being a being a coach, sitting down with a leader, talking through challenges or ideas, and even just seeing their potential, because they we don't see our own potential. We don't see the greatness within us like other people see. And we could be our worst critics and having that coach that says, Do you do you realize you do really good at this, or this is a strength of yours, or maybe you need to focus a little bit more on that over there because it seems to be where your success is. That's the thing I love about coaching, but it's also people being willing to submit themselves to the process and kind of in essence letting down their guard and and and their ego.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

Wow, that's great. That's a great question, Brian, and and uh Chris. I think you really dialed in on this idea of being coachable yourself. I was reading this week, I have a so the grandson of one of my early friends in life, is this young man is uh MMA fighter at mixed martial arts, which I can tell you right now is not a career path I would ever go down. But uh I've watched several of his his fights and watched him develop and grow as a young man, a young Christian man. I was actually this past week reading comments from his coaching staff about him. And uh it wasn't marketing promotion stuff, it was you know heartfelt about his work ethic and and uh trying to keep him on track and so on. And so in order to be kind of a superstar, which he's on the track to be, it's not just about his individual abilities. He's got some talent, he's got some genetics that he inherited along the way, he's got some skill sets, but the real key to move from you know an amateur level into a real pro level, it's all about the coaching. It's all about having someone. And you hit on something that I it was a mystery to me many years ago. This is not a podcast about me, but it it it when when I realized that people actually need to talk to someone and that the value of I wasn't really a coach, my career path is more, you know, as uh a consulting person, but I it was a mystery to me why people would pay me just to talk to me. They would just talk to me for hours, they'd call me up. I had yesterday I was driving to a funeral and I had someone say, I need to talk to you now, I need right now, I need to talk to you. And uh and all they were doing for 20 minutes while I'm driving is processing a situation that they're in, and all I did was just listen to ask a few questions, try to kind of guide the the direction of where they're going, not helping up, not making decisions for them, but helping them to make the right decisions that they need to make. And so that whole idea of just listening and having someone to talk to, many of the highest level leaders that I've worked with, and I've worked with, you know, heads of state, heads of governments, military, almost every industry you can imagine, they feel very lonely. They feel very isolated, they're in a bubble. And I don't know if you've seen this, but the higher level or the biggest organizations, or the more important the job, the more isolated people become, particularly with wealth. A lot of the wealthiest clients I've ever had have no one they can talk to. They don't trust people for good reason. Have you found that? That uh just this idea of being in leadership kind of makes you keeps you isolated.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Well, absolutely. I think that people, once again, I think it goes back to imposter syndrome, honestly, Jim. It's yeah, you know, you start to feel like, well, how did I get here? Am I worthy? You know, you go into all the self-doubt spiraling. I mean, I get as a solopreneur with my own business, I feel I, you know, I have to fight that. And it's I'm much better today than I was 10 years ago. But especially when I started my business, I was questioning, like, who's gonna listen to me? I've been a youth pastor and executive pastor. Why would the business world listen to me? Why would an executive listen to me? Why would these team, you know, team members, why would they care? And so there's a lot of this self-doubt that I had, and and I then I started to see it in all these leaders that that other people admired, right? Other people think great things about and are wish they were in their shoes, and then they don't realize how lonely it feels. It's funny you were mentioning, you know, the just just somebody to talk to, right? Like the book Prosperous Coach, I read it uh a while back, and he said, you know, sometimes just talking to a lamppost outside can help people. So, you know, as a coach, just be like a lamppost to them, let them talk to you. Let them, they just need a place to process. And and I think that is so true because I think that as high-level leaders, and and more responsibilities you have, the more you're trying to build that trust and credibility, it can also be very isolating because you're afraid to let your guard down and let people see that you're not perfect, right? And what I always tell leaders is you're trying to protect an image, and guess what? They already know you're not perfect. They can tell you your weaknesses, they can tell you your blind spots, right? Like they know you're not perfect. So if you actually kind of humble yourself and you say, you know what, I know I'm not perfect, help me see things I'm not seeing and being more vulnerable to your team and with your team, I just think it eases a lot of that tension that leaders feel about loneliness and isolation. It's them being real. Now, I also understand for the sake of the business and the and the organization and confidentiality and a lot of different things, they have to be careful about that too. But that's why I love doing what I do because I can be that outside objective person that's not in it every day with them, where they're it, I reduce that risk by coming alongside of them and having those conversations. But yeah, I agree with you. I think it's I think it's huge when when you just listen to people. I actually I heard the story. I was uh Jay Abraham, I was reading one of his books or listening to one of his podcasts not too long ago, and he said he was on this international business trip and he met this guy on a top of a roof in this at this hotel, and and he just asked him a couple of questions. The guy talked to him for like two straight hours. He said, I didn't get a word in about myself, he didn't ask me about myself, and he told me at the end of two hours, he's like, You're the most interesting guy I've ever met. Right? He's like, he goes like he didn't know anything about me. He didn't say anything, but because I just let him talk and let him process, he thought I was the best thing ever.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

Right. Yeah, many years ago, I was invited to um to a conference in the Caribbean where I was kind of living part-time, and um That's a tough game, by the way. Sat in a room for four days with uh uh high-level leaders, financial leaders, and I can't even I don't even have a checkbook. Okay, so I'm in a room filled with I think 25 or 30 financial experts, IT people, banking industry leaders. I didn't say anything the whole time went to the bathroom, and you know, men don't talk in the bathroom, women go in and have a conversation. And so and in the bathroom, the head of state that I was that invited me to this meeting asked me what we should do. Should we go this way or that way? And I just said, Well, you know, with all due respect, sir, I would probably go this way. And that's all I said. We went back into the boardroom with all these people that have been there for days hashing this out, and um, he goes, Well, the meeting's over. I think we can call it a day. Uh, thanks for coming. Dr. Chambers said we ought to go left, so that's the way we're going. People were looking at me like this guy didn't even, he hasn't participated. All he did was listen. And uh, I saw him later that day at a dinner party, and he said, Man, thanks for all the input. You really made a difference, blah, blah, blah. I was like, I have no idea. Uh, Brian, I know you've had some experiences like this where people get influenced by you, but from your point of view, your contribution to it is somewhat, at least you feel it's minimal. Can you talk to that? Because you've had a lot, even more experience than probably Chris and I both about that.

SPEAKER_04 34:48

You know, Jim, I beg to differ, and it's just exactly what you just said. You, Jim, have influenced both Chris and I. And it leads me to a conversation about legacy. We come alongside people, you in a bathroom, you know, Chris on a rooftop somewhere talking to someone, me in a classroom, or as a coach, which I do also. And I don't think we we are do a I don't think any of us do a really good job of assessing how it is that we have been influencing people. Um, we just want to do what we feel called to do. So, Jim, I think of you as a mentor. Or to put you in a in a sort of a category, I think you've been a mentor to many. And and I think most of that has been unintentional. It's just because you've been willing to come alongside people. And I think for me, uh, I think I've been well, I'm I'm I'm in the classroom, right? I teach courses related to leader leadership, and a range of people attend our school. Some are in the nonprofit sector, some are in the business sector, some of them are pastors, and they choose to come to a seminary, right? And that's where I can influence them. And then I coach a range of people across many sectors as well. Chris, it's exciting for me and Jim to see that you are part of that legacy. Uh so when we met 15 years ago, who knew, right? But we saw some things. Jim and I paid attention and we were looking at who was looking back at us. And and Chris, you called me several times looking for clarification and insight and things like that. So I want to ask you about legacy, seeing that we have also three different generations of people in front of us right now. Think about your legacy. What do you think your legacy of influence is going to be?

SPEAKER_01 36:45

You know, it's funny you ask that because, you know, I remember even when once I was really on this personal growth track and real, you know, my 20s and really starting to understand it and get it more. I remember thinking, I want to be that 80-year-old guy that people come to and ask for wisdom and advice, right? I and I thought, but the only way to get there is to keep growing and be valuable to people. So for me, you know, it's it's not about ego, it's not about being, you know, world renowned, so to speak, or whatever. It's not about that for me at all. It's about being useful, it's about being helpful. And it's about being relevant to people's needs because, you know, I just think about the people who have poured into me over the decades of my journey of helping me become who I am today. And, you know, I'm I'm in my late 40s now. I've got, you know, my son's 20 and in college as a sophomore. My middle son is getting ready to graduate high school, my daughter's a sophomore in high school. I'm looking at them as young adults, heading into their adult years of life and kind of what they're paying attention to, right? And and then people that I coach and train, and and even with people that are older than me, but they don't have the experiences or the knowledge and they haven't studied on leadership and personal development like I have, being able to just truly open people's eyes and help them see how valuable that investing in themselves really becomes. And to me, as a from a legacy standpoint, is you know, if if people understand that, hey, I believe God has created them with some incredible gifts and talents and abilities to utilize while they're on this earth, right? But also not just to let them stay dormant, but to truly maximize those gifts, those abilities, and and to see in themselves what what they're capable of doing and who they're capable of influencing, like we've talked about today. Even if it's just the one person in their sphere of influence, they can really make a big difference. And you never know what that one person does for people beyond them, right? And and we hear all those stories of of people who influence somebody who influenced somebody big that we know today. But but I think that for me, legacy-wise, is being valuable, being being useful, being helpful. You know, Brian, one of the other things that really hit me a while back was I believe my calling in so many ways is about coming alongside leaders to help them be successful. So their success is my success, is the way I look at it. If I can help somebody be successful, whether that be organizationally, personally, relationally, whatever the topic of interest is, if I can come alongside them and help them, then you know, I can always be in the background. I don't care about being in the background. But if they can be successful because I've come alongside and helped them and given them insights, wisdom, direction that that helps them move forward, that to me, like that fuels my tank. And that's what I get excited about from my coaching business and training side of things when I go in and work with teams. You know, I work with management teams and the people that they're they're leading may never know me at all. But if I can influence and help those top leaders make a better culture and a better environment for those people below them in the organization, that that just that to me gets exciting.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

You know, you mentioned earlier at the beginning of the podcast about sports stars, you know, Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, people like that. It always struck me when I lived in Atlanta, we'd go watch uh basketball. I'm not I don't know how to play basketball really, but uh love sports and I would go with my son down and watch the Hawks play. And what's interesting is I don't think the guy who coached Michael Jordan could jump. That's what you know what I mean. I don't think that guy could jump, but but the guy that he co that he coached could jump. So somebody had to teach Michael Jordan how to jump. I know with Tiger Woods, because I'm old enough to remember watching him on Johnny Carson as a little bitty boy, his dad was his coach. And his dad's the one who actually coached him. I've had the privilege of meeting a number of superstars over the my career, one of which was Muhammad Ali. And that was a great, a great time to uh uh sit and talk to him personally. But uh he he didn't know how to box. His parents put him in a gymnasium because his teachers felt like he didn't have the mental acuity to be very academic, and he needed something to focus on. It might have been a type of autism in that we didn't know what those things were in those days, but he had learning disabilities. So his parents are the ones who put him in an environment where he could get influence from all these other people. And I remember this it's in some of the biographies and and so about him and about other sports stars that they had to focus on something, they had to get their focus on something in order to be great at other things. And so I used to sit and watch basketball and watch these guys jump up and and dunk these balls, and I was thinking, I bet the coach can't do that. I bet the guy teaching them to do that can't do that. The same way with these other people. So as we, you know, we're getting close to our time schedule here, but I want to go back to the idea of being on the outside, like Brian was saying, you're on the outside helping someone else be successful. You probably can't be that successful in that industry. You're not gonna lead that company the way they do it. Go back again and talk a little bit about the joy, personal joy that you get when your superstar makes a basket, hits a hole, has a home run, whatever the case may be. Talk a little bit about your personal joy that happens. Because I know it's a joy. I've had it, believe me. I I have been like uh the parent of a great, you know, a great superstar when one of my people, one of the people I'm working with, hits a home run.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

Well, first I think that it's actually what I thought was a weakness of not being able to do that job like you're talking about personally. I used to think that was a weakness, but then I realized, no, it's actually an advantage because I had to ask questions. I had to really dig into things to understand what they were going through, which actually helped them be more successful. So the weakness actually was actually was a strength that I had to actually just understand and learn to embrace. So that's that's a big part of that, kind of like what you're saying. Like you think it's a weakness, but really you can really maximize and capitalize on that. No, but the joy of it, you know, one of my clients. I remember meeting with her. I was meeting with an executive team. The CEO of the of the organization was going to retire in a couple of years. They brought me in to work with their top five leaders under her to get them ready for the transition. And through the duration of coaching with this one leader, it became very evident to me pretty quickly that she should be the next CEO. Now, she was in line to be interviewed for that and be potentially considered. But when I started talking to her about, you know, tell me your vision. What do you see, you know, that the organization can become? And she started just doing all the work on her own. I really kind of dialed into that. In fact, I was brought in by the board of that organization to give them kind of an update on what I was seeing and what I was sensing. And I told them, I was like, You've got a you've got an all-star here, right? You've got a rock star that you need to really pay attention to. And long story short, she did get hired to be the next CEO. And she's taken that organization to new levels in the last five years since she took that role. And so for me, it's just been great because she was already a very capable person and leader already. Don't get me wrong. But to be able to be elevated into that role, to be now leading that organization in her, she's about my age in her late 40s. She's she's really got a career path ahead of her that she could do for the next 20 years, potentially. And and that organization will thrive under her leadership because of her vision and all that she brings to the table. But but and even other people that weren't considered for that role, but that were on the team that didn't see their value. One of the women, she's now the CFO. And she she just didn't understand her value. So to be able to help her see what she brought out and and strengths that she had that she kind of took for granted or even discounted. So I mean, story after story like that, Jim, it just to be able to maybe bring people to their awareness of, hey, I'm really actually good at this. I was at a conference years ago, they said, you know, what seems common to you seems like magic to others. And I run into that with people all the time because they're just doing what they do and they don't think about it. And when I can bring that out and show them how valuable that is for themselves, their team, their organization, beyond and beyond, even, it just lights me up because I'm like, they're getting it, they're seeing their potential. And it gives me, I feel like my purpose is to help people see their purpose and then to help equip them to achieve it. And when I get to do that, it's it's it's all that I need to fuel my soul.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Wow, that's great. I know uh Brian and I both we have been in those helping positions for so long now as teachers, professors, so on. You get in a classroom. I I don't do classroom as much as I used to, but it's interesting when a student really gets something, you know, when they it finally clicks with them, that feeling that you have as a teacher, it's it's just hard to describe to anyone else. It's it's just an amazing feeling of accomplishment and worth, even though you're not the person, you know, you're not the one it's clicking for, it's someone else. How about touch base? Tell us about a leader in your life. This podcast really the vision for this has always been my daughter's vision of understanding how legacy is passed on to the next generation. I never even thought about that. I didn't grow up with a dad and uh and and I didn't grow up with a lot of people around me that saw potential or whatever, so it's just all about her stuff. But there's gotta be one or two leaders that have really made a difference. You mentioned Maxwell and uh I've been around him because we lived in Atlanta. He used to come to our church a lot and all that. But what about just regular folks that have inspired you?

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Yeah, I mean, I think even going back, so I would say I got the opportunity to grow up in a church with our senior pastor as well as my youth pastor that that really I think set the tone for so much of how I operate today. I just saw them loving people, caring for people, doing doing what they could to help people be successful and grow. And and they, you know, they were just truly instrumental. In fact, they connected me to my wife and I, we've been together I think it's been 31 years since we've met in high school now, and it was their fault. We, you know, they were the ones. They said, you need to hang out with her in her house. So coming up on our 25th anniversary here, and and she was 15. I was 17 at the time when we met for the first time. And it was those guys that that really, you know, connected those. They paid attention to what to each of us and our families and all the dynamics. And so they were instrumental. And then when I went into college and and had internships, like I mentioned earlier, you know, I had three different internships, and each of those men that I interned under, they showed me something different. They gave me different perspectives, they showed me different ways to do things, and they gave me opportunities. And and, you know, my first internship, I remember making mistakes, and and I wasn't reprimanded for it. I was coached through it and I was helped, you know, to navigate. So all those people have been vitally critical and important in my life, and they were just common ordinary guys, so to speak, right? But they invested in me, they saw something in me, they were willing to pour into me, and and even to this day, you know, I can reach back out to them at any point and and we try to stay in touch at least loosely. But yeah, they're they're they're guys that were just a little bit farther ahead of me, right? Like I think that's one of the things. Like Maxwell, he he's been certainly influential to my journey because of who he is and what he's contributed, but he's so far ahead of me. It feels like he's you know, light years away. The the the people that are five, ten, twenty years ahead of you that are doing things that you want to do, they can be those mentors, those people that they're not so far ahead that they forget what it's like to be where you are. And that and those are the leaders that I think have made the most difference for me. Are they not they're not light years ahead, they're five steps ahead, they're 10 steps ahead. And I can follow them, they can reach back and help me. And now I want to do that, obviously, for those that are following, you know, the next generation behind me too.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

That's fantastic. I'm gonna let Brian kind of dive in here and maybe ask the last couple questions. And before we go, after Brian, um, I want you to talk to us a little bit about your your books and your coaching. How do we get a hold of you? What if somebody wants to talk to you? You know, how do they connect? Where do they go and all of that kind of stuff? So, Brian, I'm just gonna turn it over to you. You've been kind of quiet, which is unusual.

SPEAKER_04 50:30

It is. It is. I'm just uh listening and learning uh from you, Chris, and uh I'm inspired as well. So I I thought five years, five to ten years from now, how do you see as a learning you're a learner yourself, right? You're learning from all of these engagements as you coach people, as you get feedback from people who read your book and say, Hey, Chris, you said something that really moved me. Tell me more. You know, we're all we're leading and we're learning and we're coaching and we're mentoring and we're teaching all together. So I'd like to hear more about how do you see all of this work that you're doing influencing you over the next five to ten years? What are you growing into?

SPEAKER_01 51:18

That's a great question. You know, I look at it, I I I I have that thought because I look at where my family is, right? In a couple years, my daughter graduates high school and and in five years, you know, my wife and I were in a different state of life, you know, with our kids being in that young adult phase. And and so I think about that occasionally, right? Of what do I want to be doing and and what does that mean? And for me, honestly, Brian, it it it comes down to I I want to be doing what I'm doing just multiplied, right? Like I want to be in in more, uh maybe I'm more flexible and fluid with travel and being able to go places that I currently don't do because I want to be present right now, right here with my family at this stage of life. So maybe, you know, for me, I feel like maybe I there's gonna be more time freedom and some things that I that we can travel and do some things and work with leaders in different places. Um so I envision that. I also think that just I look at that and say, well, look how far I've grown in the last five to ten years. So keep growing, keep doing what I'm doing and pacing myself because it's that compounding interest thing of it, of learning as well as just your finances. So the more I learn, the more I grow, the more I can ultimately contribute and help people with. And I also say this to people, you know, I have been very impatient in my journey of where I wanted to be today versus where I even am because I had a great vision. I feel like God has given me a big vision for myself, my business, my family. But what I've had to learn along the way is I'm a work in progress, right? And there are things that God points out to me that Chris, you're not if I gave you those things you wanted today, you wouldn't be able to bear the weight of them because you've got to keep growing. And so I think when I look at those a few years ahead, it's being able to build the scaffolding, build the structure to support the vision, to support the things that I really hope to accomplish and want to accomplish, but in a way that is, once again, valuable and useful, not just for myself, but to others. And and I think a lot of it just comes down to it's just this continual growth and to be able to see it multiply, to to give back and share. And you know, now it's kind of awesome to see my oldest son. He's he's watching what I'm doing, and and I can tell he kind of wants to get in the business with me and he wants to get involved with me and do things. And and I'm not, you know, I've never been one to try to prescribe to my kids what to do. But if that's something that he wants to do, then maybe five years from now we're working together. And he's he's coming alongside of me and helping me with coaching and training and and marketing and the things that he's involved in. So, you know, I think it's kind of like the sky's a limit on one level, but I also think it's just more open doors and and you know, just once again, trusting the process that God has me going through to become who I need to be in order to do the things he's created me to do. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

Hey, talk just a minute before we exit out. Talk a little bit more about what you're doing with this upcoming thing of moving from individuals to teams. Give us a little bit of that so that listeners can kind of grasp where you're going.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

Yeah, absolutely. And honestly, this is really fresh in my mind, just even in the last month or so. So, as I've grown, as I've learned, and as I've invested in my own training and everything, I have all these different pieces of content. I've written a couple books, I've got all these different programs I can tap into for resources and training. And I it just wasn't, it was like I had a puzzle dumped on the table and all the pieces felt scattered, and I didn't know how they all fit together. And so I kept praying about that and just considering, you know, what it meant and talking to other people. And that's where this whole four-phase process that I mentioned earlier really comes into play is you know, start by leading yourself, then learn to lead others, and then build culture that's attractive and magnetic, then build an organization at a scale that that multiplies leaders and impact. And so for me, what I'm really seeing, Jim, is all the different pieces of content, my books, as well as other things I'm licensed to teach and help people with, they all start to fit into one of these four categories. And so, you know, when I'm doing one-on-one coaching, a lot of it I'm focusing on focusing on is leading yourself and helping, you know, leaders see where do they need to lead themselves more consistently, but also talking about leading others. But then when I'm in workshops and training and speaking, so much of it is about skills of how do I lead people in significant ways. And so, like I said, I feel like it's just this out outgrowth that God's giving me this trajectory of seeing it starts with a leader and moves outward to the organization and the community and the world at large, even. And so for me, I'm just continuing to try to be faithful to to put together content and lessons and and you know things that can help people work.

SPEAKER_02 55:51

You think you're gonna have a new book coming out that uh that addresses the next level of all of this?

SPEAKER_01 55:57

So Magn so my my next book is in the works. It'll be Magnetic Teams. So my my first book was called The Way to Greatness. That was that's really a lead-yourself book. It's a faith-based, personal life coaching type book, is how I describe it. And I talk about learning how to be great God's way and your and your faith, relationships, mindset, stewardship, and time. Those are the five things I deal with, five categories of life.

SPEAKER_03 56:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 56:21

My my second book, The Magnetic Leader, is about these 18 essential actions to do as a leader to lead others effectively. My third book that I'm in process with and outlining now and working through is going to be magnetic teams and talking about building a team culture that people want to be a part of, that you build that culture. Because culture is such a deal breaker for a lot of people these days. And I'm trying to help leaders learn how to what kind of what are the team characteristics that I need to build and focus on to help people there. And then ultimately, and I haven't even started this one yet, but I can see the path is how do we then take that to the organizational level? So we're we're multiplying leaders, we're multiplying teams, we're multiplying our impact. So that's what I'm developing currently, Jim.

SPEAKER_02 57:03

That's really exciting because you know, my personal focus has always been not so much on leadership, but organizational systems and strategies and structures and stuff like that. But uh, but you can't do that without the right leadership. So, how do how do people, how do the listeners get in touch with you? Where do they go? Give us a little bit. I know you have a website, you have other resources, but what where do I need to go if I want to get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_01 57:33

Yeah. My hub is McClureCoin.com. That's where I have my information about my books. I I blog weekly there. I also have a podcast of my own, the Magnetic Leadership Podcast, that I actually just uh crossed over. I have a hundred episodes now on my own podcast that I've that I've just crossed over. I interview leaders at times. I also do a lot of solo episodes and just talk about different topics there. But yeah, McClureCoaching.com is is the hub. And then I'm also on LinkedIn. I'm I do daily videos on Instagram and put them on YouTube and LinkedIn trying to just, you know, once again, just right for me, it's a creative outlet, but it's also like I love sharing what I'm learning. And and it's funny because I had leaders in the past go, oh, here's another email from Chris. He's sharing me another article with me, he's sharing another book with me. But you know, when I'm reading, when I'm learning, people's faces start popping into my mind. Like, I need to share this with that person.

SPEAKER_02 58:23

Yeah, but some of your stuff on LinkedIn. I'm a big LinkedIn guy, and I I love it because there's just resources. Both you and Brian, um, I try to keep up with on LinkedIn. I think it's just a good platform. We don't get paid by LinkedIn, but but uh it's a good platform for for folks who want to grow. I would have absolutely devoured it if I would have been, you know, a young leader. Brian, thank you. Looking forward to many, many more podcasts with you, my friend. Chris, I hope that uh we can have you back on. We want to continue our legacy of helping other people be successful. That's that's the whole goal of everything. So thank you guys. Love you both. And you've been such an inspiration to me. So look forward to talking to you both again soon.