Relationships That Shape Legacy with Dr. Calvin Lawrence | #LeadWithLegacy | Episode 19

What does it mean to truly lead with relationships first?

In Episode 19 of the Lead with Legacy™ Podcast, Amanda Chambers and Sloane Lott sit down with educator, speaker, and author Dr. Calvin Lawrence for a powerful conversation about leadership, diversity, emotional intelligence, mentorship, and the impact of human connection.

Drawing from more than 40 years in education and leadership, Dr. Lawrence shares why relationships matter more than titles, how empathy transforms leadership, and why some of the greatest lessons come through hardship and humility. From stories of mentorship and student impact to conversations around diversity, inclusion, faith, and legacy, this episode is full of wisdom for leaders at every stage of life.

If you care about people, leadership, and leaving behind something meaningful, this conversation will stay with you long after it ends.

🔔 Subscribe for leadership insights, honest conversations, and practical wisdom you can apply immediately.

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Connect with Dr Calvin Lawrence:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/calvinlawrence-edd/

Learn more at: https://www.calvinlawrencespeaks.net/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Lead with Legacy, the official podcast of IOL Global. Here we will explore leadership that outlives titles and trends. Through conversations with faith-based and marketplace leaders, we will discuss integrity, conviction, and purpose. To learn more about us, visit us at iOLglobal.com. Welcome to another episode of the Lead with Legacy Podcast. We are so honored today to have Dr. Calvin Lawrence. Thank you so much for being here with us today. What an honor to have you here. So you and I connected a long time ago on LinkedIn. So that's how we know one another. You have definitely been an amazing leader in a couple different ways. You have a book. It's called The Happy Leader. And so we're going to talk a little bit about that. But before we um really get going on drilling you with questions, I like for everybody to kind of just tell us a little bit about themselves. You know, let us have some insight about Dr. Lawrence and who he is and what he's got going on. So I'll give you the floor and let you take it away.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Well, thank you, Amanda, and also Sloan. Thank you guys. Amanda is gonna be easy to remember your name because my wife's name is Amanda. So we have a lot in common. And then, of course, Sloan is such a cool name. I just love Sloan. So, anyway, so let me just say a little bit about myself. So I've had 40 some years in education. Now it's really going on 43 out by telling people 41, but I need to add the other two years in because I got another couple of years going. Um, and it's all been in education at all levels. And when I started out, I was a coach and a teacher and uh and it became an administrator. Later, when I got my PhD or my EDD, which is an education version of it, I went into higher ed. So I got a chance to work at the collegiate level for for the last 13 or so years. And when I did that, I was at a university, and then I did the community college at the very end of my tenure. So um I've enjoyed working with students, faculty, and and and people almost all of my life, almost all of my life. And then the last little bit has been me becoming an entrepreneur, going out, speaking, talking about different things. And then, of course, you you you mentioned writing the book, which just came out about a year or so ago. So that's my life kind of in a nutshell, married 35 years to my same wife. Um, and uh, that's how I got to Texas. You married Texas and you don't leave Texas, so that's what happened there. And then we have a son who's getting married in a couple of months. So that's the big deal in our households. Uh, hope that helps a little bit. Do you guys get a little bit of who I am?

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Yeah, well, if you're planning a wedding, then that that is a lot, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Well, congratulations on that. You're gaining a daughter uh as well. Um, and congratulations on the 35 years of marriage. That that you don't see that a lot these days. So congratulate, that's amazing. Well done to you both. Um, that is not an easy thing to accomplish. All right, so we're gonna grill you with a couple questions. Um, and so let's just go off with the first question, then I'll let Sloane kind of take it for a little while from there. So you just you just let us know that you had spent over 40 years in education and leadership. How through that process, because that's that's you know, that's a long process, how has that shaped the way that you lead people today? What have you learned as the biggest takeaways in that process of how to lead or how not to lead?

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Well, well, I'll tell you, uh, Amanda and Sloan, I can I could start all real easy with one simple sentence, and that is that relationships matter. And so over the course of that time, and I and I didn't have this when I first got in, y'all. I've learned how important relationships are. I mean, you can learn all the other things, the procedural things. They'll teach you a lot at the university. We've been talking about university and stuff and whatnot, but it really boils down to relationships and how you interact with people. And leadership is all about that. And if you don't figure that part out, I guess you could be somewhat successful, but you will never be as successful as you could be if you don't understand how relationships really matter. They matter in multiple ways. And so I can say this real quick. I've been taught some things about relationship, even with the little, I started out with, I didn't say this, with elementary school kids. And sometimes they will, they have no filter, so they'll just tell you straight up what it is and what it isn't. And I've learned a whole lot about how important it is to, especially with students, because if they don't think you care about them, then the rest of it is uh pretty much null and void. Some will succeed, some won't, and that's where we miss the boat a lot of times in education. And so I've learned that you've got to establish, you've got to go a little bit deeper, a little bit further. And I think, and we may even talk about this. When the leaders that I have admired over my lifespan have been those types of leaders, and I try to model them. I know I can't be as good as some of them, and I can't be just like them. Everybody's got their own unique style, but I know that the relationship piece, you gotta figure out what works for you, how you can do it well, and then just drill into it because if you can do that and do it good, you're gonna become a great leader, I think.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

I absolutely agree with that. I think the a lot of the leaders that we work with, we really see those that have so much success, they are relationship driven and they are motivated to listen well, right? To to listen to what is being said and to listen to what is not being said, right? So there's so much to learn from that. And as I was going through some of your work, it became obvious very quickly that you are relationship first, right? You're person-centric in your leadership style. And we love that. I worked um with littles right out of college, and you were right. They are absolutely honest. I have heard things about my outfit that I never thought I would, or or my hair, or you know, and um they were so they were funny, you know, and so but they were honest, and you could tell the teachers that did care for them and invested in their personhood, right? Those were the teachers that got the most out of kiddos. Yeah. So to have for them to have success, they had to feel that you really saw them as a person. And that's that's at six, and that's at 36. That's where I'm at. If someone isn't interested in me and I know it, they're not gonna get my best version. I'm gonna put up a blocker because I just feel like I'm not I'm not important to them as a person. Now, also in your work, you talk a lot about diversity and inclusion. You say that's essential. What does that look like at the relationship level for a leader?

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Well, here's what I would say, Sloan, especially in the in the day that we live in. I there may have been a time when diversity, you know, it's always been important, but it's so important now because we're in a global kind of an economy, kind of uh interacting. I mean, you can you can get on the phone and you'll be in and hold up whatever place in the in the state of whatever, and you'll be talking to somebody across the way. Well, here we are, we're talking across wherever we are in terms of distance. And so it's important to know and to be able to relate to people and to not I'll throw this in, buy into some stereotypes, gotten into a stereotype about a certain subculture or group of people, or even us even from a socioeconomic, you can't get into that. You've got to be able to be open. You said you said it, and I and I sometimes forget about throwing this in, but I'll say it because you said it, so the good leaders are listeners, but they're also, I think you can listen with your ears, but you can also listen with some other parts. And if I'm really good, a lot of nonverbal communication maybe is the most powerful. I'm in a room and I'm and I'm there, and I get a sense that people don't understand what's going on. And so I may need to back up. And this is coming from the old Amanda, the old professor in me. I may need to back up because I I gotta scan the room and I and I gotta hope that they're following me. If they're not, then I'm not much of a leader, right? So if they're not following me and I lost them somewhere, and maybe I only have one person who's following me, and the rest of them are like, and so I gotta back up. So a good leader, and just I'm getting to the diversity thing, a good leader has to be able to be able to be open to understand other cultures. What's offensive in one culture may be non-offensive in another culture. I gotta understand, I gotta be, I love it when people travel, and I may not even be able to get into this the way I would like to, but uh, when you travel and you experience other cultures and other places and other even traveling in the country, in our country, in the U.S., is unique because I I'll throw this in because I'm from Virginia and coming to Texas was like coming to a whole nother country. So I had to I had to figure out, okay, the people here are a little different. I'm not gonna throw them under the bus, but they're different than where I came from. And so I need to understand that. And so the diversity of that, even that little diversity piece is a major piece in terms of whether I'm gonna be successful or whether I won't, or I'll come out as a dud. I remember there was something that happened in Texas. It didn't relate to me, so I'm glad it wasn't. But it was a, it was a it was a bad thing with regards to this company that came in. And it came in kind of in a way that I realized how Texans are, and they were a little bit more about what their company was, but they weren't trying to be ingratiating or doing what they needed to do. Well, long story short, that company didn't last here very long. And I was like, I could have told that CEO what was wrong because with Texans, there's a way and there's a way not to. And I well, I can say that by my wife. There's a way I've learned over that's why a man that they married for 35 years. I've learned what the That's good advice.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

That is good advice. That is good advice.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

And so, yeah, you learn, and you got, but you gotta, you have to be sensitive, uh, you have to have empathy, then all those go into the diversity piece. And so where we are now in society, and it it it goes across, it cuts across all fields, education, corporate America, whatever. If you're not sensitive, if you don't understand, you're gonna have problems moving people forward. Your job is to help people to move along with you. And they're they're gonna they're gonna leave you if you're not sensitive to that diversity piece. So it so it encompasses everything. And I don't think there's a leader out there worth his or her salt who is gonna be successful again with regards to moving an organization or team forward unless they understand diversity and unless they embrace it in a way that is beneficial for everybody.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

Yeah, sometimes with the diversity, too, it's just about being open to talk about it. You know, we've had that conversation. We have one of our strategic partners is um Dr. Brian Leander, and he is uh a practical theologian. He works at uh the Berkeley School of Theology, and he has written a book on diversity-oriented churches that we're doing some work with him as well. And not plugging him, but but segueing into that, that some he and I have so I kind of grew up with him because he worked with Iowa with my parents like 25 years ago, and I was working with him then, and so we got to know each other, and so we've known each other a long time. And so we can have some of those really good conversations. Like, what does it look like? What does diversity look like? What does it look like for you versus me versus somebody else? And I grew up in a family that was very multicultural. My grandfather was from Mexico, and so we had a lot of culture, different cultures, different kinds of things, dynamics. I also grew up in a place north of Atlanta that was very diverse. So I grew up in a in an environment that was incredible incredibly diverse. And I was laughing because you said in podunk, because now I'm in podunk. I am literally in podunk, Arkansas, which we love. But it is that I've I've talked about this on a couple of the other podcasts that it was a culture shock when I really got out here and started getting immersed, and I'm like, this is so different, it's slower. And there's pros and cons to both, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

I don't think I could go back to living in the city now because I think now I've learned like that slower pace of life and gardening and chickens and you know, all that kind of stuff. And it's just a different life. But just like you were talking about going from Virginia to Texas, even in our own country, which is a big country, if I go from here to Oregon, it's gonna be very different in Oregon than it is here. And I think we have to be sensitive to those different changes. It's not the the whole diversity and inclusion thing, it's not just the black thing people and a white people thing. It is all the things. It's female, it's male, it's you know, where are we located? Where is our origin? What is our history? What are the things that we've been through? And and being able to have those conversations, not be afraid to have them like, hey, you look different than me, but that's okay. We can still have a conversation and we can talk and we can learn. I think some of the greatest things that I've been able to learn is by those open conversations, like, hey, we're not the same, we're different. I'm I'm a female, you're a male, you're older than me, you're I'm younger. I mean, that goes back to we're supposed to be teaching these things and guiding one another and growing and developing. And that's one of my favorite things. I was, I was just raised like that, you know, like I was kind of immersed in that. And so I I have to kind of do the opposite because I think it's so strange when people don't embrace it. Um and I'm like, oh, that that's really a thing. Like I didn't know that, but it is, you know, and so I'm kind of on the opposite spectrum of it. But I appreciate you bringing that up to you, and I appreciate you being willing to talk about it, being willing to have the conversations. Um, and I think that we should all be better about that. Go subscribe to our channel so that we can have more people uh listen to these conversations and from these great leaders. Um, all right. So, next question can you share a moment where a relationship you built changed an outcome? And what did that teach you?

SPEAKER_02 14:24

I can share a bunch of moments. I can think of two. Maybe I can squeeze the two in. One, the first one, and the second one is a little more powerful. So I'll save that one for for the for the end, you know, whatever bang. So the first one was I call it the flat tire incident. And I had a um, I was at a school, it was an elementary school. I had not made a really good connection with the diagnostician. In fact, for some reason, we just didn't chime for whatever reason. I don't know if it was, it was what it wasn't because I wasn't trying. One day in the school, her tire went flat. She's looking for somebody to help her out. This is now this you talk about ancient history. This is before cell phones got big, so she wasn't able to just bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, and then have somebody come. So I'm the only male in the building at that time. And I guess she just assumed God knows how to change the tire. Well, I did. Thankfully, I knew how to change the tire. You would not believe how that changed our relationship. It it flipped the whole script on how she viewed me. And after that, she became one of my biggest advocates. And it would just, it, so it taught me a little bit about how, even though if I'm a leader, I gotta work, keep working on people, and maybe there's something that I'll do one day that will make that change. I don't know what it is, but you continue to, you don't, you don't write them off. Let me let me just say it that way. You don't write people off. The second one was with a student, and it was a major thing, and it was because I had the relationship with him before that he came to me and he told me that he was thinking about committing suicide. And um, and and it even to this day, it it makes me kind of draw back because, you know, I don't want any, you don't want any student or any person to feel like that their life is worthless, they have no value, they have no worth. That's what this whole thing is all about, right? So, so number one, I got into the right people at the time. You we didn't even do the mental health thing really well back then, but but I got into a counselor and whatnot, and but then I had to do something more than that. I didn't, I'm not a one-shot, one-trick pony kind of thing, if one trick pony kind of guy. If something happens, I have to do the follow-up, I have to keep coming back. I've got to make sure everything is okay. So what I did was I wrote and I did this, and uh I did this in a in a time when I would not have done it, but I wrote this beautiful, I'd consider it a beautiful little kind of a poem, diet.trab to to him to encourage him. And what I did was I explained in the poem all of my flaws and how I was so imperfect. So the title of it was The Late Late Bloomer, because I I consider myself a late bloomer. Everything came to me late. If we went into that in detail, it would take the entire show. But so I think it got across at that particular time. I think we we we saved the entity in that that he decided life was worth living and he was okay. That was the whole crux of it. Someone told me you need to save that, and I did, and I even put it in my book because it's there in a spoiler alert, it's kind of there somewhere embedded, but I tell the story along with it and why I wrote it and how it was written, and why I feel like you know, everybody needs to have someone to do something and say something to them that because you can one sometimes one person or one word will will redirect someone when they feel like there's no hope at all. And so, yeah, those were two really powerful times. One in particular, very powerful.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. That's great. That's our let you go go forward with us. Thank you. That was really good. I needed to hear that. Yes, that was uplifting. That that was for me. That story was for me to hear both those stories to give me some hope. You said you believe you were born for this time, and just in our a small time together, I believe that you are right. You were born for this time. How does that shape the way you lead today?

SPEAKER_02 18:21

How does it shape the way I lead today? I think with regards to to the people who've impacted me, because if I say that, and I'm kind of careful when I say that, Sloan, some people think, oh, well, that guy, he's a pretty arrogant guy. If he says he was born for this time, he's that good, he's that, he's this and he's that. But it's really not that if they get the gist of what I'm trying to say. It is because of the things that I've gone through, because of the people who've influenced me, because of all the impact players that have been around my life, and now where we are with regards to America, the world, all the stuff that we are kind of dealing with, it's almost as if I was born for this time. And and I'll back up just a little bit. Even with regards to my educational background, which I did not have the straightest career path. I don't know that anybody does, but my path goes all over the place, even though it stayed in education. There are roundabouts, there are like turnarounds, there are times when I had to stop out. I never dropped out, but I stopped out for a while just to try to pick it up. Even when we were, I was working on that Amanda's laughing, even when I was working on that doctorate, I had to stop working for a period of time just to get myself uh situated and get a certain number of chapters because I had to get focused. And so it is, it's like there are things that now, when I look back, it's like at the time I didn't need them, Sloan. I didn't think I needed them, but now every piece, like a puzzle, every piece of the puzzle that came into play at whatever time it came into was designed to get me ready for the role and the job I have now. What I can do now is a whole lot different than maybe what I could do 20 years or so ago. And I was maybe in the right place at the time for that particular time. But now, with regards to what I can do, I know that all of the things before came for a reason to put me in a place where I can rely on, get some of the wisdom from that, experience those life experiences that you can't get any other way, but having to go through them, good and bad. Sometimes the bad ones were more impactful than the good ones. I have to say that too, because sometimes those failures set me up for successes later on down the road. And so I just feel like maybe if I had been born, this will help a little bit. If I had been born in the 30s or 20s, things would have been different. But because of where I was born, because of the impact of the 60s, my parents coming out of some of the stuff that they came out of to teach me the right from wrong, going back to what Amanda said, I'll piggyback on that a little bit. Because they, especially mom, she she made sure that we felt comfortable in any environment with any group of people. And maybe even she set me up to help, and I'll throw this other one in there, Amanda, because you didn't you didn't mention this one, but diversity, part of it is these special populations where people think differently, their physical differences and whatnot, that's diversity too. So I throw all that in that mix. And because of that, and because of my background, because I have a special ed background, I'm kind of equipped to do a lot of different things. And I'll end with this. I just recently ran for a school board, and some people told me you need to do it because you need to do it. Because at first I didn't want to do it. But if I think about all this stuff that I've had to go through and been involved in, it sets me up almost perfectly to be an impact player. It's a a board is a part of a team, but everybody should have. A role to play and something to bring to the table. I know I have something to bring to the table, and I'm thankful that I was elected, and I'm thankful I'm in that role. And that also goes to being born for this time, and I've got the goods to do what I need to do at this time in the world.

SPEAKER_03 22:18

Absolutely. And that's not arrogant. You said that might be it's not. It is not. It is accurate, and not only is it accurate, it's biblically accurate. Amanda and I believe that our steps are ordered, right? And so it is no surprise to our father that you are here in this time doing what you're doing. And this is what you were you were born to do, and for such a time as this. And so I just wanted to defend you a little bit. It's not arrogant.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

That's accurate. Thanks, Sloan. I'm according to you if I need defense, if I need a defense attorney, Sloan Lott is the one I got. You just come on.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

Yeah. She can wear a whole lot of hats. She doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

I can see that, yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

Yeah, and congratulations on getting that position as well, because I think that what a what a unique opportunity with all of the wealth of knowledge and experience. Because, like you said, a lot of times we're learning more from the hard things that we've been through. And I can attest to that too. It is the not that I haven't learned from the good times too, but it is the harder times, the more challenging times in my life that I look back and go, yeah, I learned that lesson. And then we try so hard, right? To like our kids and those we're mentoring, to like listen. But we have to remember it is that hard stuff, right? You gotta let them go through the hard stuff sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Yes, yes, indeed.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

Yeah, you and so I am a late-in-life mom. And so that's part of that process for me. My son is six now. I had him when I was 40. And so it's so funny because we joke, we'll be in here and we'll hear noises, you know, and Slone's like, what is it? And I'm like, listen, he just let if he if he breaks the thing, he breaks the thing. If he falls, you know, you just gotta, but it's been a process for me, you know. It's been a process to go, okay, you gotta let go, you gotta let him fail. You gotta let him. If the he if he climbs on the counter and he falls off, then I guess he falls off today. And we just pray he does not break a leg today. So, and and he does that too. He climbs on the counter a lot. Um, he's short like me. So in order to get up there, he's gotta, you know, he makes do. But it is the failures, it is the falling a lot of times that helps us and that it develops us in into the leader that God's created us to be um in walking in that path. I I I'm I'm glad that you're speaking to that. And that because a lot of times I think people are like, Well, I don't want to talk about the bad stuff. It's kind of the same thing with the diversity, like you said. If you're if you're dealing with special needs, and special needs looks different sometimes, and sometimes it doesn't look different. Sometimes we can't see it at all, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Sometimes we can't see it at all. Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

And so when you're going through that stuff, sometimes it's important just to take a step back. And and again, going back to having those conversations, if we don't have the conversations about it, if we don't know about it, um, or we're not able to be emotionally intelligent about a situation because you know, we're so closed off. I think I've had some conversations with some people here in the area that I'm in now, like that, that it's it's there's so much good here. It's so beautiful, it's kind of like a time stop in time, but it's also uh a situation where there's there's an unknowing is that I don't even know if that's a word. I'm making a word right now. It's it's it's not that they're ignorant, you know, it's not it's it's not a stupidity, it's just we don't know because we haven't lived it or we haven't been around it. And then I wanted to go back to what you're talking about. We have the opportunity now to have these conversations from anywhere, right? Just like on this podcast, like we can talk to like we've had people from England and we have some schedule with people all over the world, and it's interesting to have those perspectives and and talk to people and learn to learn from experts like you, because that's what you are now. You're an expert. And so you've gone through the things that you've gone through to help us walk through things in the future, to help our kids and our grandkids walk through those things to teach us and to hopefully we're instilling that in other people. Let's talk, let's just have a conversation about it. Like it it can be different, it can be a difficult conversation, even, you know. That's okay. It's all right to have difficult conversations so long as we can come back at the end and go, Hey, I still like you, I still, you know, I still respect you. Um, and and bridge the gap between, you know, all that uncomfortableness that's there. So yeah, I really, really, really um enjoy having a conversation with you and learning about that and your background in education. Cause like we were talking about before we came on the recording, my dad has a doctorate in education too. And so not only does he have a doctorate in education, but he's also a pastor, or was he retired now? And so I had to grow up as a teacher's kid and a pastor's kid. And so you can imagine what that did to me. That's why I'm in so that's why I gotta go to therapy now.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

No, no, that's why you're so well connected. Well connected and is that what we're gonna call it?

SPEAKER_03 27:12

Is that what yeah?

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

Um so like the bar was high, right? But that's not a bad thing. We should have the bar set high, right? I'm grateful now. I wasn't so great. My dad and I talk about this. I wasn't so grateful then, but I'm grateful now that the bar was that high and that the expectations were there. I think sometimes we don't we don't have expectations anymore because the world says, Oh, you can't, you know, you can't you can't do that, you can't say that, or you can't have an expectation on I do. I have I have expectations for our family. I have standards, you know, we have standards for this family, for this business, for our children, for the people that we are connected with, because those things are important. Um, and it helps shape us and define us into the leaders that we are. Um, and if you've been married 35 years, I'm pretty sure y'all have some expectations too. Because that's a long time. Um, so at the end of this podcast, we ask every single guest the same two questions. And we they do if you've listened to the podcast at all, you know what they are. Um so it's not a secret, but this is just a fun way for us to just see the differences and the diversity in people because no one answers the same. Um, and it it keeps surprising us, like the different answers. There's no one size fit all fits all in this. Um, we're I'm really excited to ask you these two questions. I am gonna let Sloane ask the first one and do the follow-up there, and then I'll ask the last one. All right. Dr. Lawrence, who is a leader who has deeply influenced your life and what did they teach you?

SPEAKER_02 28:42

Ken, do you want do you want a famous person or do you want somebody who's close to me, or does it make a difference?

SPEAKER_03 28:47

It does not make a difference.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

Okay. All right. So I will I'm gonna I'm gonna hedge and try to give you a little bit of a little bit of both. So I grew up in Virginia. There was a guy named Arthur Ash. I don't know if y'all have heard of him, but he was a famous African-American tennis player who grew up just down the road from me in Richmond, Virginia. He was the first and now really the only African-American who's won Wimbledon mail. And but he went beyond that. He was more of a humanitarian, very humble guy. And you guys will, you hang around me long enough, you'll you'll you'll know that this is why I don't want to ever come off being arrogant. That I love humility, I love humble leaders, I love leaders that that try to put all the spotlight on other people and they don't take it for themselves. He was that type of a guy. Prolific writer, scholar, athlete, activist, you name it, all of those things. Profound influence on me in terms of what kind of leader did I want to be. And then the one that I that's a little bit closer to home was a guy who no one would know, but but the people who were close with me, his name was his name was Darnell Johnson, and he was a coach. He influenced me in terms of being able to go to play college football. But it was it's funny, Amanda and Sloan. I kind of followed in his footsteps a little bit. There's some things I know I haven't done that he's done or D did because he passed away. But he became a he was a he was a coach, he became an administrator. I was a coach, I became an administrator. He did prison ministry. I did a little bit. I even had a stint where I was a principal at a juvenile correction center. But he did so many amazing things for his community. Same type of guy as Arthur Ash. Humility was first. You would not, he would not want to draw any attention to himself. Always drew attention to his students, his athletes, always wanted the best for them and went the extra mile. And so I can end it with that. If I can do anything, I don't know that I'm that great a guy, but I'll go the extra mile for you. I'll take the shirt off my back. That's the kind of guys those two men were.

SPEAKER_03 31:08

That's good answers. I love that you have two as well. Um, I actually do know who Arthur Ash is. Um, and so yeah, that was pretty cool. And and nobody's answered that yet. So and it's not, it's not real, it's not at all. The question's not at all about um, you know, who's famous, who's not famous. It's really just who who impacted you. Yeah, who Yeah, who impacted you, who like like you were saying, you know, they impacted the way that you walked in your future and the things that you did and the things that you accomplished.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

I can tell you this too, and I and I I shouldn't be leaving this out because you two both are women of faith, but they were both faithful men. And so those guys, they didn't they didn't hit you with their faith, but the the people who are the most effective to me, and this is like with the going back to those kids, Sloan. Kids don't care that much about you can talk a big game, but they want to see it. And those guys didn't have to talk about a whole lot, but it was how they walk their walk. And so, yeah, those types of leaders are the ones that impact me the most. Uh, I guess I my wife might say I'm I'm talking more than I maybe should sometimes these days. I talk a whole lot more, but I my nature is introvert, and I'm I'll try to be quiet and I try to talk when I need to. And now there's a need to do a whole lot more talking. So that I'll I'll use that as my excuse.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

You are you're not wrong. I mean, we're we're in a time. I think, you know, that's one of the reasons that we're doing this because if once you get to know me well, you will know that this is not my thing either. Um, I spent many, pretty much my whole career behind the scenes as an admin, as an EA. Um, and anybody who's an EA knows that's sometimes a very thankless job, but it's an intrinsic. You you love doing it, you love doing for other people, and you don't get the recognition a lot. I've worked for some really amazing people who recognize me a great deal, but I was always the behind the scenes, and then God was like, Hey, I want you to go up front, and I'm like, that's not my thing. And he was like, Yeah, but it is now.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 33:16

And so it's answering that call to you and speaking when God's ready for you to speak and saying what you know, but I I also agree with you very much that a lot of times when it comes to our faith, we don't win people over to Christ by being overtly in their face about it. Right. We win people over to Christ by the way that we live, in the way that we're different, in the way that we operate differently. I've had people in my career tell me, you just you're different. Because there was a long time in corporate, you know, like it it wasn't a discussion. It wasn't not a discussion, but it wasn't a discussion. I wasn't like, hey, you know, here's what I do. But people would come to me like, you don't do things the same way everybody else does. And I'm like, no, I don't. I operate differently. But it's also not a situation where I'm gonna, you know, pound on you. Now, if you have questions for me, I'll, you know, I'll answer them. You'll answer them. Right. Yeah, but I think that that's more impactful. It's more impactful across the line, right? If you're just trying to be a mentor, if you're just pounding, pounding, pounding, you know, these kids or even adults are not gonna respond well to that. I don't respond well to that. I don't think there's any of us that do. I think there's a time and a place, you know, when you're when you're dealing with some real challenging kids and and stuff like that, um, there's a time and a place where you have some different tactics to it. But as a general rule, I think that people learn by seeing how we're behaving, how we're acting, how we're reacting or not reacting. And so that's that speaks to a lot. All right. So last question. This doesn't have to be the end of the talk, but this is the last question we're gonna ask you, I think. Although I'm interested because you got uh is it a Dallas Cowboy shirt you're wearing?

SPEAKER_02 34:53

I do have a I do have a Dallas Cowboy. They're not doing that good, so I know yeah, but uh I do wear because I am and then and there's a little bit of background history on that too. So yeah, you might share that if you have time.

SPEAKER_03 35:06

Yeah, no, you can share that with us too. So I'm not big into sports, I'm not even gonna pretend to even know what's going on. But when I was a kid, Dallas Cowboys were doing really, really well. And so that you can also date me there. Um, I can date you there. There we go. They were doing very, very well. And so my dad and I would watch a lot of Dallas Cowboys. I don't know why. I guess that was just the team that he liked. And and so we would watch a lot. So I immediately recognize that because I would probably not recognize most other sports member like stuff that's going on. All right. So when you think about legacy, what is it that you hope that your work and your leadership will leave behind to others?

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Uh that's a beautiful ending question. And when I think about legacy, and the older you get, Amanda and Sloan, the closer you start thinking about where do I want to lead to and so what I hope my legacy will be building on top of the legacy, which I love, you know, y'all's y'all's the title of this program is Lead with Legacy. Building on top of the legacy of my parents, my my dad was Calvin Sr. I'm a junior. My mom, mom's name was Irene. If I can build on what they accomplished, which was they wanted to they wanted something better for their children. I can brag a little bit. Sloan on my my sister's a medical doctor. And education was really big in our home. Mom pushed it in a in a way that because she could see a future for us to do certain things. And the other day I was thinking about reading and whatnot, how they had us reading all the time, just reading, reading, reading. I think she would be very pleased with a couple of things that I've done here recently, but that's the same thing that I would want with my son and my future daughter and also future grandkids that would they look back and they thought about uh dad and granddad, what would they think and how would they think about me? And if they thought that he was a bridge builder, he was a guy who was a made relationships really, really count, and he did for others when he didn't have to, then that's enough. I don't have to have any other lofty titles or any uh superficial awards, because you know, the Bible says this, Sloan, about how trophies and the trophy case will dust and decay and all that stuff, other stuff. I can look up now and I see old trophies from some other time when I was running marathons, and they don't even make a whole lot of difference to me anymore. But it's the people that you impact, they're the lives that you impact. Those are the things that will last, that will stand, I believe, forever, really. Because I think even when we get to heaven, we'll be able to meet with some people that we didn't even know we impacted, but we impacted them in a certain way. And so, yeah, that that would be my legacy.

SPEAKER_03 37:56

That's super beautiful. We believe that, yeah, we could got um those treasures that that moths and rust can't touch.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

They won't be able to touch it.

SPEAKER_03 38:05

Yeah. We were having, I think it was in, we host a home group on Sundays. I think it was in that group. I'm trying to think that we were talking about a little of that, that that changes as you grow, right? As you grow in your relationship with Christ, but it's just as you grow as a human being. I think Christ follower, not like the older you get, the more you start looking at that.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

And but I think also as a Christ follower, it comes into like all this stuff is really, you know, it's nice. We have nice things and we're blessed, and that's wonderful. Um but it's the times that you can cherish and the lessons that you can cherish, and it's what it's those people that we are gonna see in heaven. That's what we were talking about. It's like there's gonna be people there that we never knew we entered.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

We never knew how, yeah, we never knew how we touched them, but they'll be there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:50

But we'll get to see them when we get there. It's gonna be so exciting. And we yeah, it is exciting. Also, it it's also kind of like an attitude check, isn't it? It's like, hmm, um, you know, maybe I should make sure that the the people that I'm investing in the things that I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:10

Yeah. Cause I mean, there's, you know, we all have off days here and there, and we're all learning, we're all going through a process of growth. And so it I think it is important to do a self-check sometime. I go, hmm, yeah. Am I really impacting people?

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Am I really spreading and am I really doing it for the right reasons or am I doing it for my yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

Yeah, absolutely. Because yeah, we can have the wrong motives, right? I I don't think there's any one of us that can sit look back on our lives and go, oh, well, I always had the perfect motives, I always had the right mo, you know, I always did the right thing. That would be great, but I don't think we can do that. Um but it is kind of doing that that self-check on yourself occasionally and just going, hey, like, am I am I doing the right thing? Am I impacting the right way, you know, for the kingdom, not for myself. Right. So it's important to do that. All right, so tell us about the Dallas Cowboys.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Okay, so my Dallas Cowboys story in a nutshell. So my dad was kind of like your dad, except he was more of a Tom Landry fan. So he started with those guys. And so even then, though, I wasn't quite convinced about the Cowboys. That was way back in the 70s. My mother-in-law was even a bigger Cowboys fan. So when she knew that I had a cowboy connection, it ingratiated me with the family. And you didn't book mother-in-law, my my wife's mother. So everybody else in that, on that other side of the family, once she said I was good, I was good. Now, so my big connection was I played with a guy who was a star during the time, Amanda, that you were watching the Cowboys with your dad. Charles Haley is a cowboy. If you look him up, he went to James Madison University where I went to James Madison. He was a freshman. I was a I was a fifth-year senior. I used to tell my athletes that I taught him everything he knew. That was back in the day when he was playing, and it made me look kind of big, but that was not true. So when I got to Texas in '88, Jerry Jones bought the Cowboys, and the very next year he brought in Charles Haley. Charles and I reconnected down here. We got to go to games. It was during that run that Amanda was watching when the Cowboys would go in and everybody knew they were gonna lose, and it was like, where are we gonna go to eat? Because Cowboys are gonna win, because they won three Super Bowls in four years. And so those were some good times. We were hanging out, doing all that stuff. So I'm I'm a loyalist, right? So I had to switch my allegiance. I and there's another piece to this puzzle with the team that I grew up with, but I switched my allegiance to the Cowboys, haven't looked back since, have been a Cowboy fan through Vic and then, and I'm really a loyal guy because if they're down, if they're losing, it's still my team. So that that's a that's it in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

What a beautiful conversation we've got to have with you. I'm so grateful that you have been on here with us. What an honor. Um, Sloan, you have anything else? No, just thank you so much. I appreciate the time we've gotten to spin together.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Yes, yes, Sloan. I have enjoyed it. I hope maybe I'll get maybe y'all have to wait two or three years. I don't know. Your y'all's uh list of guests is probably uh very uh extensive. And so I hope maybe during that rotation, I get back on the rotation and I can't.

SPEAKER_03 42:24

We would love to have you back. And you know what? And it is I'm gonna tell you this, Dr. Lawrence, it's not our list, it is God's list because we keep watching it. We're like, and so I'll tell you a funny story. My pastor asked me the other day. He said, we were talking about the podcast, he said, so that's how you make your money. And I said, No. Not how I make my money. Oh no, not at all. Um, that would be cool though.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Maybe one day real cool. One day, hey, don't don't count it out. The Lord has a way of doing some things. Yeah, yeah. You never know. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 42:54

I I I just chuckled at him. I was like, oh, absolutely not. No, this is this is just something that God asked me to do because he asked, he said, Why are you doing it? I said, I have no idea. Yeah, I have no idea why I'm doing it. Um, just because God asked me to, that's why. And so this is just, you know, just something that we're doing, just to have these conversations and get it out to people. And there is no other agenda than that. I we we'd have to really tap into God to figure out what the other agenda is because I don't know what it is. But I'm really honored you're here. We absolutely want to have you back on. I think that we should have you back on with Dr. Chambers. I think you guys would have a lot to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

You can do it.

SPEAKER_03 43:27

So tell us how do we find your book? It's on Amazon, right?

SPEAKER_02 43:31

It's on Amazon. It's also on Ingram Sparks, but Amazon's probably easier to find. Probably, yeah. Uh I it's in paperback and at the Kindle version if you like Kindle. My wife likes Kindle.

SPEAKER_03 43:43

Love Kindle. Um, and so if somebody wants you to come speak um at one of their events or something, how do we arrange that? They you have a website or your LinkedIn?

SPEAKER_02 43:52

I do. It's on the LinkedIn and it's www.calvinlawrence speaks all one word.net. And so if you go on that if you go on the LinkedIn page, you'll find it real easy. Uh, and then it'll take you right to my webpage and it'll take you also to the book if you want to get it from there.

SPEAKER_03 44:10

Fantastic. Go buy the book, The Happy Leader, and learn how to be a better leader. And we just appreciate you so much. Thank you. Thank you for your time. I know it's it's precious, and we just appreciate you being here with us today.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

Well, I have been looking forward to this for a while. I have it circled and double dotted on my calendar. So I am overjoyed and I'm looking forward to it when it's released. Because you got you two are really fun, fun to work with.

SPEAKER_03 44:35

Thank you for the blessing of your time today. We appreciate you very much.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

Well, y'all have blessed me. I think I'm gonna go into this weekend kind of super hyped up. So if people look at me that I'm walking above the ground, that I'll just have to say it counted up to a man in Sloan.

SPEAKER_03 44:49

They they did it to we'll count it to God, and then you got yeah. But you can also send them to the podcast and they can listen to me. I definitely can do that for sure. That's right. Thank you so much. We appreciate you. God bless.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Thank you. You too.