Building Healthy Ministry Structures with Josh Updegraff | #LeadWithLegacy | Episode 20

What happens when faith-based leadership meets strategic planning, operational clarity, and sustainable organizational structure?

In Episode 20 of the Lead with Legacy™ Podcast, Amanda Chambers sits down with Josh Updegraff of Kingdom Planning for a powerful conversation on ministry leadership, project management, stewardship, burnout prevention, church operations, and creating sustainable systems that truly serve people.

Josh shares how his background in both project management and church ministry shaped his mission to help churches, nonprofits, and Christian businesses lead with clarity, structure, and purpose — without losing sight of people or the leading of the Holy Spirit.

This conversation explores:

Leadership and organizational strain
Stewardship and risk management
Sustainable ministry structures
Church leadership and burnout
Faith-based operations and planning
Delegation, mentorship, and serving others
Building resilient teams and healthy cultures

This episode is packed with wisdom for ministry leaders, business owners, nonprofit leaders, project managers, and anyone seeking to lead with both conviction and compassion.

🔔 Subscribe for leadership insights, honest conversations, and practical wisdom you can apply immediately.

🌐 Learn more about IOL Global:
www.iolglobal.com

Connect with Josh Updegraff:

LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/josh-updegraff-17233a93/

Learn more at:
https://www.kingdomplanning.org/webinars

Support the Lead with Legacy™ Podcast:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2600300/support

Contact our team to book a time to be on the Lead with Legacy™ Podcast:
https://iolglobal.com/podcast

#LeadWithLegacy #IOLGlobal #ServeGod #ServePeople #FaithBasedLeadership #ChristianLeadership #LeadershipDevelopment #LegacyLeadership #KingdomLeadership #ServantLeadership #LeadershipPodcast #AmandaChambers #PublicServiceLeadership #LeadershipWithPurpose

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Lead with Legacy, the official podcast of IOL Global. Here we will explore leadership that outlives titles and trends. Through conversations with faith-based and marketplace leaders, we will discuss integrity, conviction, and purpose. To learn more about us, visit us at iOLglobal.com.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Lead with Legacy podcast. Um, I am so honored and blessed today to have Mr. Josh Updograph here with us. We're gonna have a really fun conversation today. Josh is doing some really interesting stuff, some stuff that's kind of in the wheelhouse of IOL previously. And so we're gonna we have a lot in common and we can have um some good conversation. Uh before we jump into the conversation, though, we're gonna do a shameless plug and say um that if you like what we're talking about and you don't want to miss an episode, um, make sure you like and subscribe. We're on YouTube, iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Spotify, Bus Browse, all the major podcasts. Thanks to my team for doing that. You guys are amazing and I appreciate you so much. Um, and if the conversations are valuable, you can support us as well, but not necessary. We just are glad you're here and you're listening to what we have to say today. So, Josh, start us off. Tell us who you are and and why we're talking and what your background is, and just tell us a little bit about you and and your company and what you guys are doing.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

Yeah, for sure. So my background spans about like two tracks that have kind of run parallel for most of my adult life. On one side, I have over 15 years in project management and operations, working through the kind of organizational stuff that shows up in systems, processes, and people trying to coordinate across uh both of those platforms. But on the other side, I have more than a decade in church ministry, primarily in youth and worship leadership, where I learned early that you know the relational and structural don't actually compete with each other, but they complement each other. So the company that I started up is called Kingdom Planning, it and it came out of recognizing that that strain that I was watching organizations navigate in the corporate context was also showing up in churches and nonprofits, only they were much less aware of those types of situations and not by their own doing. These things happened especially when you care about the mission and the people that you work for and work with, but they just didn't have the language or frameworks to name it. Leaders were often carrying weight that had a structural source, but because no one had named it that way, they felt it was personal pressure or just part of the calling, right? You know, such like uh working a hundred hours a week and just being like, Oh, you're in ministry, man, just deal with it. But um, so I started planning to give leaders a way to see what's happening beneath the surface, name it, and make informed decisions about it. Um and as far as personally, I um I'm married to my wonderful wife Hannah. We live in northwest Pennsylvania and her great grandparents' old farmhouse. So we got a little bit of property out here, and we love it. We we uh yeah, we love taking care of the land and and our spare time.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

We said you're a project manager, you don't have any spare times, right?

SPEAKER_03 3:32

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Well, I'm again, I'm so grateful to have you on. It's funny, not funny, because I'm like everybody's a project manager, but it's true, right? Because pro uh there's projects everywhere. Even the projects you guys are doing on your property there, those, you know, that's a project. And so it's so great to have you here. Also, interestingly enough, um, for those people who don't know, when my parents um started IOL Global way back 30 something years ago, um, this was the same general idea was what they were doing. Um, and they did for 30 years, like ministry planning um and things like that. My dad has some some stuff, some proprietary stuff on ministry-based strategic planning. Um, so this is in my wheelhouse as well. We, you and I got connected on LinkedIn just kind of out of the blue, because LinkedIn's fun like that. We had some mutual interest, faith-based interest. And I said, Hey, why don't you come on our podcast and talk to talk about what you guys are doing? Um, because I love the mission of what you're doing. And so I just wanted to have a conversation. Um, and you're also starting a podcast, right? And so I'm gonna be a guest on your we're gonna reciprocate, and I'm gonna be a guest on your podcast. So tell us about the podcast real quick.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Yeah, so um right now the podcast consists of five uh leadership clarity field guide modules. Um, I have documents on the website um for those that like to read through modules, but I sometimes with project management the information can be kind of heavy.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

Um reading it could put you to sleep rather quick quickly. And I understand my voice could probably do the same thing, but I'm hoping it keeps people more entertained than just reading a 10-page document. Um so I have all five modules up on YouTube and Rumble. Um, but as well as the website, it just links to the YouTube and Rumble channels. But um, I'm also gonna be doing my lead and deliver podcast, which is closely tied into my newsletter. Um, I'm gonna be doing a podcast. Um, the goal is every week to talk about the topic that we talk about in the newsletter that I put out every week, as well as having live guests on. I have a few guests already lined up, excited to get it kicked off. But yeah, we're just gonna be talking about like strategic planning, leadership, and project management. So all the fun stuff.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Fortunately or not, fortunately, I know a lot about all of those things, or maybe a little bit a lot about a lot of, I don't know. Um, but no, I love what you're doing. I'm I'm super glad to have you on. All right, so I'm gonna ping you with some questions today and see how we do.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

Um awesome.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

So you've worked in both corporate operations and ministry. How have both of those things shaped how you lead today?

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Right. Um, it's it helps to understand that those two things don't have to be separate, right? Um, a lot of the people that we're aiming to help with kingdom planning are Christian-owned businesses, right? So people in the corporate r world that want to promote God in the business space. It's not just churches and the nonprofits that have this problem that we're addressing, it's Christian businesses because they see themselves as stewards and shepherds of the people that they work for. So but each world handed me something that the other couldn't really provide separately. Corporate operations taught me that structure isn't the enemy of people, it's what protects them.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

When roles are unclear and accountability is undefined, when decisions don't really have a home, uh, people absorb that confusion and it stresses the heck out of them. Um good structure removes ambiguity, and removing ambiguity is one of the most caring things the leader can do for a team.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Agreed.

SPEAKER_03 7:27

Ministry taught me that structure without meaning collapses under the pressure, right? You can build a really clean org chart and still have an organization that loses its way the moment things go go hard because nobody is connected to the lie beneath the work. They know what the mission is, but you lose it when you're in proximity to it all the time. Ministry forced me to hold on to purpose as a non-negotiable, not as a slogan, but as a structural anchor. So, what I bring into every engagement is both of those backgrounds now. I'm not interested in clean processes that don't serve the people that are delivering them. And I'm not interested in passionate vision that hasn't been translated into operational reality because at the end of the day, you can have this amazing vision, but if you can't execute, yeah, like execute clearly, then what's the end goal, right? What's the true purpose?

SPEAKER_01 8:29

I love that answer. Good job. Big words though, uh, for some of I agree wholeheartedly. So I I'm a pastor's kid, so I grew up um in the church. I've seen a lot of messes in the church. I've seen a lot of good things in the church. Um, but when I reopened IOL, you know, I I've talked about this in a couple other episodes. My heart, God just really laid on my heart that, you know, He wanted me to put out this, this, I don't know, you call it a slogan, you call it whatever it is. It's the truth, it's my heart to serve God, serve people, which was a little bit of a difficult challenge in the beginning because I've been in corporate for a long time. I mean, that's why I wanted to ask you that question as well, because we have this corporate world, right? And then we have, you know, our faith base and and our Christianity and all of that that we're following. And so meshing the two can sometimes be a little bit difficult. But what I have found is that once we do it and we do it well, it's a really beautiful thing and God really blesses it when we listen um to really what the heart of the Holy Spirit is trying to tell us and like to do this or to do that. We were talking beforehand um about this podcast, and and and when I really felt like God was telling me to do this podcast, and there's not, there's not a monetary reason before it, you know, it's really just to have these good conversations, talk about what other people are doing. Um, and so I think that's really important and it's a great answer. And I love your big words in it because it isn't just an org chart, right? I mean, org charts are great, actually, you know, like we can make those all day long, but it really is what we pour into the people that we're working with and working for, um, and how we treat them, how we, you know, we can say, Oh, they, oh, you should lead like this, but do you lead like that? Are you leading like that? Um, are you know, are you leading like Christ would lead? Are you I love what you said about um, you know, you can have the passion, whether it's a church or or a corporate organization, you can have the passion all you want, but you have to execute right and you have to get your team behind that. They have to understand what are you passionate about? They can't, you know, you can't say, oh, well, we want to do this, this, and this, and we want to put it out, but we we can't give you any why or reason behind it because people need a reason. Um they need a reason to get behind what you're doing. So I love it. All right, so you talk about the same kind of general idea. You talk about the relationship and the structure. How do you balance caring for people with driving those results?

SPEAKER_03 10:46

Well, I think the framing of that as like a balance, and if care and clarity are on opposite ends of a scale, is where the leaders get stuck, right? The most caring thing you can do for someone is tell them the truth clearly, right? One of the things my wife and I do all the time, right, is we tell each other the truth, but lovingly. And the same thing at my nine to five, right? My boss and I have a great relationship where I can tell her, you know, hey, I 1000% don't agree with this position. Can you tell me a little bit more about why we're doing it this way? And so we can give each other feedback, but um it's it's it's not loving if you let things slide, right? Vague feedback, undefined expectations, unclear roles that don't feel caring to the people that are attached to those roles. It feels it doesn't, it's not caring. It feels like fog. People can't do their best work inside the fog. It's if they don't have clarity. No how no matter how much love you have for that person, right? What I try to practice is what I call structured honesty, right? The care shows up in how you deliver clarity, not in whether or not you deliver it. You earn the right to name the hard things by demonstrating that you see the whole person, not just their performance. So building relationships. I'm a very relational person. I love building relationships, getting to know people and partner with them, not just drop them. But once that relational foundation exists, clarity isn't a threat anymore. It's a gift. You can be like, hey, you know, I don't I don't see it this way, but tell me more about it.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

Let's let's get to the root issue and solve that thing together, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Yeah, I think that's really good. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I think us be having the opportunity within our teams and with our churches and you know, our marriages, our our friendships to have the ability to be honest, but like you said, lovingly, kindly, right? Um but to say, you know, like if if one of one of the people that are working with me on our team now came to me and said, Hey, you know, this, I don't understand this. It's my job to make sure that there's clarity on that. One thing that that I I like to do and that I implemented when I reopened the company was, hey, if there's a job that you don't really like doing, you need to tell me that you really don't like doing it. Um, because it doesn't really so serve a whole lot. Like there, there's gonna be things, and I've told all of them this, there's gonna be things you're gonna have to do that you're not always gonna love. Same for me. Um, but as we're growing and as we're developing, if there's a if there's a job, uh a portion of what we're doing that I've assigned to you that you really it's not in your wheelhouse, you don't really like it, you're not passionate about it, um, then tell me and let's work on, you know, getting getting that out of off your plate, off your list. For instance, for a long time I was doing like the video editing. It's I can do it and I can do it well, but I don't like it. It's really, really time consuming for me. And it's one of those things I have like squirrel disease where I like get pulled this way and that way. And um, it's hard to find in my life right now that focused time to sit down for hours and hours and hours and do it. Um, and so I was really thinking about that. Like, okay, what am I gonna do about this? And then like literally God just like dropped dropped Amy. Um it she was already in my life, um, but she, you know, she's like, hey, what if I did that? And I'm like, what if you did do it? Um, that would be so lonely for me. Um, but the same, you know, the same across the board. Like, for instance, you know, we were talking about some accounting stuff the other day, and and I I knew my assistant did not want to do that, but I was just joking with her. I was like, Do you want to do that? And she's like, No. And I am honesty on it though, right? Because if there's something, we would all have to do some things that we don't really want to do. But I don't want to give somebody some big major project or job that's like just something that they really, really can't stand to do, or don't excel at, or don't want to do because it's not gonna be the best of them, right? Um, and there's things that Sloan does exceptionally well, and she loves doing them. So I love for her to do them. But that that piece that you're talking about of giving your team the opportunity and the ability to be honest with you and say, I don't really like this, or I don't really understand this, or what, you know, what can we do differently about this is so important. I think that in churches and in corporate, they kind of get stuck in this rut of like everybody like you have to do this because there's nobody else to do it, so you just have to do it. Well, what if we found a way for somebody else to do it? Um, or you know, what if what if we prayed about that God would open up a door? Because the thing is too, is like let's go back to the the video editing with Amy. It was a it was a blessing for both of us, right? That I want I had been praying about getting that off my shoulders and off my to-do list, and then she had been praying about an opportunity, you know, to make some extra money. And so it was really a blessing for for everybody. And so and I saw that a lot growing up in churches. There would be people in positions in volunteer positions too, where they're just having to take on the world when really there could be other people that could come on um and help in those roles. And sometimes we just need to ask, right? And we need to ask other people for help. So good answer.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

Or people just don't realize, you know, that that's an opportunity, you know, that that's an option. Because like a lot of times in the church environment, they see people in leadership and they're like, Oh wow, that must be awesome. But I can't do that. But we have to come alongside of them and be like, Yeah, you can.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

You can, and we'll let you.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Trust me, you can.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

We would love that.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

A hundred percent, yeah. We've had um, so our family hosts a fellowship group on Sundays, like in kind of an old-fashioned potluck, um, at our house. And then we discussed like whatever whatever the sermon was that that day. And when this kind of scenario first came about, there was a leader in our church who had kind of like come come up and said, Hey, you know, we're looking for leaders to to host these small groups in their homes and all of this. Um, and we had been really praying about like what are we gonna do? We want to serve, we don't know where to serve. And we kind of just had been like for a long time had really been praying about it. And then it was just like immediately we looked at each other like, that's it, that's the thing we're gonna do, we're gonna do this. And we love it and we enjoy it so much. But I now that we're in, so we have a core group of leaders who all do this and we all meet, and we've talked about a lot, and I and I've said several times like if you don't ask people, they don't know. They don't know that they can serve or that they can't do something. And so I think in in church and in corporate, you need to ask your people, right? In church, you need to ask the congregation, you need to say, do you want to serve? How would you like to serve? You know, there's people all the time who will serve, who will do things, who will donate, who will, but we don't ask them because we're afraid, well, we don't want to overwhelm people, we don't want to bog people down. But if you don't ask them, they don't know. And they might be praying and searching for a way to serve, but they don't know how to do it. And then in your corporate teams, if you're not consistently, you know, talking to your teams and saying, hey, you know, what is it that you're doing that you don't like? What isn't, you know, what is it you're doing that's not working? Am I hurting you? Am I impeding in what you're doing, or is something else impeding it? Then we really don't know. But like you said, giving them the opportunity to be honest about it too.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

Absolutely. Yeah. And it's it's one of those things where you can do all of the ministry volunteer fairs you want, but the real people thrive when you build a relationship with them. Yeah. So the the better idea would be to get to know them through small groups or getting to know your flock and getting encouraging your staff to go up to get to know people personally and highlight their strengths and be like, that person has this gift, let's put them in this role, or offer them that role and let them excel in the gifts that they're good at. Because then you won't have to even address anything you don't want to do because you have a whole lot of people that do want to do that.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Good. I love that. Yeah, that's yeah, that's that's my heart about all of that as well. It's like um, there's a lot of things that we can do, right? I can do a lot of things. It doesn't mean that those are, you know, the best things that I should be doing, um, or really where my gifts and talents are. Um, and so we sometimes we got to do those things anyways, and that's okay. So we still have to clean the toilets, and that's fine. Um, but you know, there's other things that you know we can excel at, and that if we're honest and and we have that opportunity to say, um, this is some people really like cleaning bathrooms. I'm not that person, right? But there are people who really do, and they really excel at it, and they're very good at it. Um, and sometimes we keep them from doing it. We've talked about that in our church too. Like, we keep people from doing those things because we think, oh, we don't, you know, there's not gonna be anybody who wants to do that. Well, how do you know? You haven't asked them. Um there might be 10 people that want to do it, you know. All right, so um, you have said that leaders are carrying a pressure that they haven't had space to process. What are you seeing that others might be missing in that?

SPEAKER_03 20:16

So the most common thing I see is the hidden strain, organizational pressure, pressure that is real and accumulating, but hasn't been formally named or addressed because it doesn't look like a crisis yet. And I I caution people all the time, right? The best time to buy fire insurance isn't when your house is burning down. Right, right. Proverbs 22, 3, which is the verse that our company is built on, says the prudent person foresees danger and takes precautions, the simpleton goes blindly blindly on and suffers the consequences. So um, you know, planning isn't just discounting father and him showing up and the Holy Spirit doing the work, right? It's not. It's it's it's Solomon says it twice in Proverbs, once in 22.3 and once in chapter 27. It's the same exact phrasing. So if Solomon says it twice, it's probably a good thing to pick up on. Just like if Jesus says something twice in the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

I was like, when they say it more than once, you should probably like perk up a little bit and listen up, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

Right. But it shows up in a few consistent patterns, right? And I I go over these in my leadership field training uh clarity guide. Uh the shit decision bottlenecks uh where authority and accountability don't light up, so decisions keep flowing upwards to people who are already overloaded. Role confusion where people have titles but not clarity about what that role actually is. They don't know where their authority ends, and someone Else's begins. Key person dependencies where this happens all the time at the church in the church level. It happens in Christian businesses and faith-based businesses as well, but this is really clear in churches. You can see it. The secretary that does everything outside of teaching. So we're a significant portion of organizational effectiveness is tied to one individual's relationship.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

Knowledge or presence and capacity drift, where the load on leaders quietly grows past sustainable levels.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Without anyone acknowledging that that's the case. Because leaders in the church tend to be like, oh, I can pick up this one thing. And then they pick it up. And then they pick up another thing. And before you know it, after like four years of being there, they control 20 things. And there's no like SOP to state what they do so that they can hand it off. So none of these things announce themselves. They just simmer underneath the surface. And by the time they surface visibly, the cost of addressing them is super high. Um, and we see a lot of like people just burn out and or you know, have anxiety attacks or what have you. Um, so it it's not feasible to ask that of your people, but if you don't know that it's there or can't see it because you're so close to the work, yeah, that's normal. Our job isn't to guilt trip people or take over the church for them and say, hey, step aside, you're doing a terrible job. No. Our job at kingdom planning is to say, have you considered that this might be taking place? Are you looking for it? And partner alongside of them and their leadership team so that they can come up with a creative solution together.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, much of that is is what my mom and dad did uh over the years. And so I I I'm glad to see somebody else carrying that torch as well and doing that. Um, because I was thinking about when you were saying that, you know, you like you have you do you have the church secretary, you have that person who had the best of intentions, right? So let's let's say like, I don't know, we'll pick a name. We'll we'll use money. Let's say so. Amanda's the Amanda said, Hey, you know what? I see you need some admin work at the church and the church is growing. Let me jump in and help you with some of that admin work. And then all of a sudden it's like, well, Amanda's the yes person. We were talking about this earlier with somebody else. It's like, oh, okay, yeah, I'll do that too. And then I'll do the accounting, and then I'll take over the ties and I'll take, and then then Amanda's so bogged down and so like stuck in it, and she's the only person anybody can go to, right? And so anytime anybody needs anything, if you need a check, you got to go to her. If you need um to know what the tithe reporting is, you got to go to her. If you need to know what pastor's schedule is, you got to go to her. And there's no second or third person. Um, what happens when she burns out? What happens when she gets, you know, done and just can't do it anymore and she has to walk away? That's not what we want. We want to set up people for success in our churches and in our corporate settings. We want to set those people up for successful, either volunteer or paid positions. Because we know in churches these these positions are very rarely paid. And if they are paid, they're very, very, you know, low-level paid jobs. Um, and that's okay because it's ministry work. Like I'm happy to do that work, but don't bog me down and don't make me the only person. Let's make a second or a third. Um, let's make a Sally and a and a Dan who can come in and and do those things as well. Um, because I might want to go on vacation, but I can't go on vacation because everybody, you know, I'm the only one that can sign the checks. And it shouldn't be that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:42

Yeah, and that's and that's what I talked about a little bit today in my newsletter, actually.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

I didn't read it, so there you go. No, yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_03 25:52

It's like, it's like, what's what's the what is that what is that cost? Like if if someone drops out, if that person dropped out for six weeks due to like some unfortunate incident or what have you, would not say that we're trying to replace them, but would someone be able to step in and do the job effective effectively? Is there some kind of standard of procedure? I should have clarified that's what I meant by SOP earlier. But the standard of procedure book in place for like kind of like a how to do my job for dummies book, and could they contact all the people that they needed to do? Could inventory be done well? Could the relationships with vendors be kept up? Like what would be missing if that person was gone for six weeks? And it's it's not we don't create these standards of procedures or we don't create these backup options to say we know that you're gonna leave us someday, um looking forward to that time.

unknown 27:02

Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

It's it's like no might be, but not most of them. Yeah, right. No, it's like it's it's it's saying, hey, let me make your life easier. Let's write this stuff down so that if someone has to step in, they can help you out. Or if you have to step out of the office, someone can step in and know what you do on a daily basis and take up the role momentarily while you're out.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Yeah, I think a couple of things about that. One, there's a corporate partner that we have with, I love that their model in this is very similar. Is like, um, and they have a specific wording for it, which I won't share, but it's like there's always a second and a third, right? So if I can't be at the meeting today, my second can step in for me, right? And you wouldn't know any different other than my face looks different than hers. Um, she can do the job, she can relay the information, she can do all the things that need to be done. And I absolutely love this model. It's one that I have throughout my career, different times, I've been able to implement in different ways. I love it in the church because it gives more people the opportunity to serve. And I cannot preach that enough that um we have to give people the avenue to serve. They they want to serve, they want to be serving, but there's this kind of misconception that it's like, oh, so-and-so does that, I can't do it. Well, yeah, you can. In fact, so and so will probably love if you you know, if you helped out, um, because it's overwhelming. There, it's not that we don't want help, it's that we have we need to be asking for it. And here's a second to that is that whoever the person is, right? Whoever this this entity, this person that we're talking about that has this quote unquote control over this this area or the section whether it's the receptionist, the secretary, whatever, you have to be humble enough to allow those people to come in and be your second and third, right? Um, because that's an opportunity, right? It's it's a ministry opportunity, it's a mentoring opportunity, but we get an opportunity to step back and show somebody else things to do and allow them to serve, whether it's corporate or whether it's church, to serve in in different capacities and to train other people. One big thing that I'm really, really big about, we've talked about this several times. I want people that are better than me. I want people that are smarter than me. I cannot do everything. Um, there's no way I'm gonna be able to do all the things all the time. And so in the church setting, in the corporate setting, we need people who are better. We need to not allow um this kind of spirit of defiance and in control of, you know, I don't want to let go because they might, you know, they might do it better. I hope they do it better than me. I hope that they excel better than me. Um, and that I get to see the fruits of that and what God's doing in that. And so, you know, we need to be open, open to that, open to having other people and mentoring other people and training other people. And I love that's part of your model because it's so important in corporate and in churches. I think sadly enough, I think it's probably more important in the churches because you know, I I think I really think it's a situation of people don't know. My dad talks a lot about that to you, is like people just don't know. You have to ask them. Um you know, some people are saying they think it's normal. Yeah, they do, yeah. Um, yeah, and it and Josh, if you're just handling it all, why do I need to handle it? You know, why would I do it? You know, or or why would why would somebody else need to come in and do it? Because Josh takes care of that. Well, I mean, Josh is taking care of 55 things, you know, and he might need a break and he might want to take his wife on vacation.

SPEAKER_03 30:38

Right. It's it's one of those things where people just think, like I discussed earlier, like we discussed earlier, that it's just part of the calling of being in ministry, right? Like working a hundred hours, doing 500 things that you don't need to do that you could hand off to someone else or delegate. People just think, yeah, that's what ministry life is. You just have to do that. It's like not necessarily, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Not all the time, no. And I think too, you know, and I'm sure you've you've heard this and talked about this as well. You're you're keeping blessings from other people. Serving is a blessing, right? And so if we're not allowing other people to use their talents and their strengths, then we're we're keeping them from doing the things that God has designed and purposed them to do. And that's not fair. If you take on the world or you take on the church or or the corporation, and you're not allowing other people to serve you or to serve the church or the corporation or to serve God ultimately, then you are taking away a blessing from them, and that's not fair. Um, and so I think, I think it, I mean, that's kind of harsh, right? People don't want to hear that. Like, that's not very nice, Amanda. But that's the truth. Um, you know, it might be that I really, you know, need some healing. And in order to heal, I need to serve people who are hurting. Um, or I need to, you know, I might be a phenomenal cook and I could cook meals for people who are sick or who need it or, you know, are having a hard time. But if I don't, you know, Heidi Sue is in charge of it all and won't let anybody else do it, you're taking my blessing away too, or my healing away too. So I think that's something important to remember. I think we get caught up in even in even in corporate, because I've been there in corporate too. Like we get caught in, like, I have to do it all. No, you don't. You don't have to do it all. So, all right, next question. You frame risk as stewardship, not just management. So, what does that change for a leader?

SPEAKER_03 32:32

So I think the word stewardship reframes like that whole question, right? Risk management tech, like if you're being technical, it's about protecting assets, managing liability, and ensuring continuity, right? But stewardship asks what's been entrusted to you, and are you managing it faithfully? When a pastor sees his congregation as like some sort of trust, you know, like people, resources, a mission. The question of organizational health, it stops being an administrative concern and becomes a moral one. Getting your organization into a structurally fragile place isn't an operational problem. It's a stewardship failure, unfortunately. The mission suffers, the people suffer, and it's very preventable. The the framing shift changes the urgency, right? Leaders who would never prioritize a risk audit suddenly take it seriously when they understand it through the lens of faithfulness to what's been entrusted to them.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:45

And they definitely they definitely take it seriously whenever a crisis hits, right? So it's like, you know, I'm not gonna name a church or anything, but there was this huge scandal that just happened recently, and the church in their apology said this could have been mitigated if at the beginning of this we I just went to the leadership team and said, Hey, we need to talk to our congregation publicly about this and say, Hey, this is not what we stand for, but that didn't happen. So, like things like that is is preventable, and it's through the Proverbs 22, 3 principle, right? If you think it might be a risk and it's something that's preventable, let's take a mitigation step and plan for it. So when that thing comes up, you can just flip open your plan book and be like, we got this, and it's not it's not mitigating the power or presence of Holy Spirit. Right. Holy Spirit operate you're allowing Holy Spirit to operate more fluidly because you're not so anxious during these situations that your actions is tampered with, right? It's like you're thinking clearly during these situations, and you're allowing the grace and the humility and the care for your congregation that Holy Spirit wants you to have flow more freely during the crisis situations when you already have a plan for it.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

Yeah. Well, and if we're being fair, leadership and planning is in the Bible. It's not if we we didn't invent this lately, you know, it is biblical to plan ahead and and to be good stewards and to lead well. Um, and in order to do that, we have to have those mitigation plans. What, you know, what if this? What are what is our stance if this happens? Because things are gonna happen. Look, things happen in church all the time. People leave churches because things happen all the time. Because we are all human, we are all fallible, we are all sinners, and so these things are gonna, there, there are gonna be things that come up constantly. And so it is how are we as a team, as an entity, going to deal with these things, not if they come up, when they come up, because they're gonna come up. So-and-so's gonna get mad, or something's gonna happen, or so-and-so's gonna do something they weren't supposed to. How do we deal with these things? What is the process? And you can't map out every single scenario, but you can have a good process in place of, you know, these are the general things that we, you know, we most likely will encounter. And if so, how is our team going to handle them? And then to having that team and empowering that team because, you know, what if Pastor is off on a mission trip and this happens, can't, you know, he can't mitigate the risk, then who's gonna mitigate the risk? Who's gonna deal with it? Who's gonna, you know, clean up the mess and sweep the floor up or whatever from whatever happened? So I I love that you guys are implementing and talking. It is a stewardship issue. Um, you know, are we stewarding the people? Are we stewarding our teams? Are we stewarding the finances, whatever the case may be? Um personally, corporately, in the church, all of the above.

SPEAKER_03 37:05

Right, and it's a loving thing to do, right? It's and it's it's not it's not something that's fear-based, it's something that's logic and why like the Holy Spirit wants us to use discernment. And part of that discernment is finding what could cause a break in the body. Like, like if you, for example, right, if you're like out riding a bike and there's a curb there, like right in front of you, you're not gonna say, you know, if I hit that curb, Holy Spirit is this gonna, you know, have me fly over it. You're gonna try to avoid the curb.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

So, you know, that's same thing you said with the like the homeowners insurance or the fire insurance or flood insurance. Like if you're living in a flood zone and you don't have the flood insurance when it floods, you can't be like, oh, well, you know, I mean, there there is a reliability on Christ, right? And that we're supposed to have. We have intelligence. We were made as very intelligent, purposeful people, and we have a responsibility to plan forward in these things, um, to have savings or to have insurance or to have the things that we need because things are going to happen. They're gonna happen in our lives, in our marriages, with our kids, with our families. And we need, you know, I I don't think that you can sit around like like you said, having the anxiety, what if this happens and what if that happens? Um, that's not a good place to live, and it's also not biblical. But having plans in place, like, you know, if this does happen, you know, how are we gonna deal with it, or how are we going to traverse this with, you know, these certain things? Um, you can't map out everything, but there's a lot that you can plan for. And I love that you guys are doing that and helping people to see that because sometimes as leaders, we get so bogged down in the leadership of it, right? In the everyday, the Monday, and so-and-so's got to do this, and I've got to delegate that, and I've got to do this, that we don't step back a minute and go, hey, what if we just planned for? You know, if if this person is ever out, then this is gonna get taken care of, or whatever, you know, whatever the case may be. So all right, I think I would love to have you back on too and have some conversations with Dr. Chambers, my dad. I think you guys have a lot in common. You guys could have some really great conversation as well, and he loves to be on the podcast, so awesome. First question though, is who has influenced your leadership the most I have a uh personal um personal story.

SPEAKER_03 39:37

There was a my first supervisor at um a company uh back in 2021. I had just been onboarded. Um she really took me underneath her wing and just like showed me that I had more potential than I thought that I had, and had more knowledge and skill than I thought I had. Really opened up my eyes to yes, I can be successful, I can do this, I can be the person that God made me to be. And so she was really influential for me, but also there's two lay pastors at the church that my wife and I got married at, and they're the most amazing people and they married us and we get together all the time, and not only are they leaders in the church, but the husband owns his own business, and the wife works with him in his own business, and you know, they really model for us what a gami marriage looks like without I mean I had two Christian parents, and my wife has two Christian parents, and we love both of them, but you know as you grow up, you don't often look to your parents as role models, you look to them as your parents, right? And so having that couple to show us what a godly marriage looks like and to lean on for counsel and advice has really been really been key because having a healthy marriage is the center of my life. Um I can't my wife is everything to me, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

That is so wonderful too, and I love that because that really plays off of like Titus too. We're talking about you know, leading the younger and guiding the older too, which is is a ministry that I'm in with the ladies at our church as well, is just trying to do that mentoring. And I think it's so important. Um, because you're right. Like I grew up in a in a in a godly household as well, with with two very Christian loving parents, but we don't all grow up that way. And even if we do, we don't want to listen to them. Um, it's really important that we have people in our life that can kind of show us those things and guide us because they have a way, especially if the people that God has specifically handpicked to put in our lives, but it's a reminder too um of that Titus II principle that we should be reciprocating that as well, right? So, and I'm sure that you and your wife, um, who is so beautiful, um, are are doing as well, but you find people that God leads you to in the future, and and you help um restore and build and um walk through life with them. Fellowship is so incredibly important. So when we're isolated or we don't have that kind of mentorship in our life, it's very difficult. That's when we start getting really bogged down with anxiety and grief and frustration. And so we need those people that we can go to corporately and privately and discuss things sometimes because you need a sounding board sometimes. So this is beautiful answers. Good job. You did it.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

When you think about your legacy, what do you hope that you will leave behind?

SPEAKER_03 43:07

Yeah. As far as far as business and the company that I run, I want the organizations that I work with to not I I don't care if they remember me or the company that I work for, but I want them to outlast the strain that could have broken them. Um that's the concrete vision, right? Leaders who were on the edge of burnout finding relief and uh peace, and churches that were fragile and becoming resilient, nonprofits who whose mission could have been derailed by something that was preventable, navigating that moment with wisdom and discernment. But the legacy version, I want to be known as someone who Followed, you know, Holy Spirit's leading and led my family well and helped normalize the conversation that we're having with the church because it's a conversation that needs to happen. The idea that a faithful mission-driven leader should think carefully about structure um and risk and sustainability is not typically accepted universally in industry and nonprofit culture or even in faith-based business. There's still significant resistance to it. Like we were talking about early, because you know, you can't be a spirit-led if you have a plan. Um but um if the I know if the work I do moves the needle at all.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:55

And knowing that leaders, a generation from now, are having these conversations because of what I'm doing, that's what I'd be saying.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Josh, thank you so much for being on with us today. Um, I super appreciate it. You're a super smart guy. Um Thank you. It's you guys are doing some really cool stuff. I'm really, really honored to know you guys and and to get to know you better in the future as well. Um, looking forward to the conversation on your podcast um as well and and some future conversations. And it would be our honor, um, is our honor to support you guys um in your mission and kind of get the word out to people um about what you're doing because I think it's good work. Um, like I said, it's it's a lot of the work that my mom and dad did growing up, so it's it's near and dear to my heart. And and I think you are right on mission, and I think that people can benefit from from the structure um in the planning um that that you have. I grew up in a very planning household, so I like to plan a lot.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

So um Yeah, I do too much.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

That's true. You can be too much of a planner, that is a thing as well. But yeah, I really appreciate you being on with us. Thank you so much. And I hope you guys continue to thrive and to grow what you're doing and your mission. And um, and I know you're doing corporate and kind of launching this thing. And so um, I very much have a passion for helping people um kind of get the word out about what they're doing, and so I'm honored to do that with you guys. And if there's anything that our team can do to help you, don't hesitate to reach out because we we definitely we definitely want to be a catalyst to help people get where God's trying to get them to be. And and we know that sometimes it can be a little bit of a struggle, um, but that's okay because there's there's a lot of good in the struggle too. So um I met with the tax guy last night and that was a struggle. So yeah, right. I was on the way to Bible study, and he's like, Well, I have some bad news for you. And I was like, All right, and so I listened to what he had to say, and I said, Okay, well, what's the good news? And he's like, There is no good news. I was like, Okay, thank you for the honesty. Oh, I appreciate that. And I I told him I said, I'm just gonna go right in here to Bible study, we're gonna pray about it, it's gonna be fine. And so, yeah, and we went and met with him last night, and I told him the same thing. I was like, you know, I I know that God called me in to do this work, and so he is gonna work it out, and we will figure it out one way or the other. So, but you know what they say, death and taxes, is you know, so that's where we are. But um, we will be praying for you guys for sure in the ministry that you're in, and then let's stay in touch. So, before we go, tell everybody again how they can get a hold of you. We'll put the links in the bottom, but you're on LinkedIn, Josh Uptograph. Um, and then you guys tell us your website.

SPEAKER_03 47:44

Yeah, our website is kingdomplanning.org. We have a bunch of awesome stuff on there. We have free resources for if you're a leader um in any type of Christian business, nonprofit, or church. We have the leadership clarity field guide for those looking to see what kind of strain they might have lying underneath the surface. We have a YouTube and Rumble channel as well, where the module videos for that leadership clarity field guide uh live. Um but yeah, and all of our email information, ways to contact us are on the website. So um, of course, we have Facebook, Instagram, all of the usual spaces, all the requirements nowadays, so yes, ma'am.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Yeah. Well, thank you, Josh. I really, really appreciate you so much. I appreciate your time um and just the opportunity to have a conversation with you. It's it was a fun conversation, so I appreciate you so much.

SPEAKER_03 48:51

It was. I'm looking forward to being back on.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, thanks a bunch.

SPEAKER_03 48:57

All right, take care.