Project Leadership That Delivers Results with Benjamin Chan | #LeadWithLegacy | Episode 28

What separates successful project leaders from those who struggle to gain buy-in, build trust, and deliver results?

In this episode of the Lead with Legacy™ Podcast, Amanda Chambers and K. Sloane Lott sit down with project leadership success coach Benjamin Chan of Clymb Consulting to discuss leadership, project recovery, emotional intelligence, coaching, organizational culture, and what it takes to lead people effectively in today's rapidly changing workplace.

Drawing from years of experience rescuing troubled projects and coaching project managers, Benjamin shares practical insights on moving beyond technical expertise and developing the leadership skills necessary to inspire teams, build trust, and create lasting impact.

In this conversation, you'll learn:

• Why technically strong project managers often struggle with leadership
• The importance of emotional intelligence and self-awareness
• How culture influences project success
• Why coaching can transform project outcomes
• How leaders can better support their teams
• The role trust plays in effective leadership

Whether you're leading projects, teams, organizations, or simply looking to grow as a leader, this episode offers practical wisdom you can apply immediately.

🔔 Subscribe for leadership insights, honest conversations, and practical wisdom you can apply immediately.

🌐 Learn more about IOL Global:
www.iolglobal.com

Support the Lead with Legacy™ Podcast:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2600300/support

Contact our team to book a time to be on the Lead with Legacy™ Podcast:
https://iolglobal.com/podcast

🔗Connect with Ben Chan:

LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/pmcoachben/

Website:
https://www.clymbconsulting.ca/

Link Tree:
https://linktr.ee/clymbconsulting

#LeadWithLegacy #IOLGlobal #ServeGod #ServePeople #FaithBasedLeadership #ChristianLeadership #LeadershipDevelopment #LegacyLeadership #KingdomLeadership #ServantLeadership #LeadershipPodcast #AmandaChambers #PublicServiceLeadership #LeadershipWithPurpose

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Lead with Legacy, the official podcast of IOL Global. Here we will explore leadership that outlives titles and trends. Through conversations with faith-based and marketplace leaders, we will discuss integrity, conviction, and purpose. To learn more about us, visit us at iOLglobal.com. Hello, and welcome back to the Lead with Legacy podcast. I'm so excited today to have Sloan Lott, my director of operations, who's incredible. And then also I am just thrilled to have Mr. Benjamin Chan here. He is just incredible. If you don't know him, then you should. If you're not connected on LinkedIn, you should connect. And I'm sure that after you listen to this podcast, you will definitely want to if you haven't connected with him yet. For those of you who do know him, you know how incredible he is. Um, and so and what an honor it is for us to have him on the show today. Um, he's an absolute superstar. We're gonna talk a little bit about that too. But Ben, I'm gonna give you the opportunity just to go ahead and just tell us who you are, what is it you do, what industry are you in, and just tell us a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Sure. First of all, thank you, Amanda and Sloan, for inviting me onto your podcast. It's just amazing to go and be here. And yeah, if you don't know me, my name is Benjamin Chan. I'm a project leadership executive coach, helping transform project managers into confident, strategic, and resilient project leaders and really working with organizations to help their project managers deliver better and more effectively so that their key strategic projects get to the end. They hopefully get to success, or be able to go and redivert it and understand what opportunities are available for them. So for me, my background has been through computer engineering and management consulting. And with that came project management. As I progressed through my career, I really found myself being a specialist in rescuing projects. Um, not any specific industry, not any specific type of project, but really just trying to fish them out of the fire. And that's where I noticed there was a bit of a gap of how are project managers being supported? Because so many of the project managers, if the project's going in the wrong direction, they get replaced. And in my opinion, I want to be able to go and one, be able to go and help the project manager grow as well as being able to go and help the project reach success. And so for me, it's providing that third option for organizations to be able to go and help their project managers be more successful outside of just traditional PMO governance and processes that they're establishing. And that's kind of, I guess, a short form version of my journey here.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Yeah, I love that. Thank you for explaining that. You also do a lot of speaking engagements as well. Um, you're pretty what I would consider a pretty famous speaker. And so we want to highlight that as well. Shout out for that. If you need a speaker, Ben's available. Well, he may not be available right now, but you can get on his schedule. And also, so let's talk about a little before we move forward. You're in Canada. And so we're way down here in Arkansas, and you're up there in Canada. So have you always lived in Canada? Are you are you from there or how did you get there?

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Yeah, no, born and raised, my parents were immigrants from Hong Kong. They actually did their university education at uh University of Texas in Austin, and that's where they met. And at some point, they somehow got to Toronto doing work and then settled in in Calgary in Canada. And yeah, then they had me and they got stuck. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

So amazing. Amazing. That's a great story. And so it was it last you have you might have to create moves it. Last year you took a trip. Was it was it to Hong Kong and you guys went and saw all these amazing? Was is that where you went?

SPEAKER_00 3:47

No, I think I don't know. There's so many different types of people.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Well, I mean you're taking a lot of shit. You went to like a popcorn factory or something.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Well, that was in uh Japan, yeah. We actually went out to the cup of noodles ramen.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

That's what it is. Yes, okay, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Yes, where is I should have I should have researched that first. No, no, no, that's okay. Um, yeah, where they were talking about how the Nissan company got started and how the founder worked through their you know bankruptcy to be able to go and create one of the largest, I'll say instant noodle conglomerates in the world.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Yeah, no, I remember reading that. It's been a little while. I should have, I should have read it, but it just popped in my head when we were talking. I was like, I know you was like at a factory. And now that you said that, I remember that was really interesting. And so um, what I think is fun, Ben, is that on LinkedIn, you kind of share, and I know it's not like your whole life, you know, it's all it's all um social media, but you do share some tidbits like that trip and stuff, and it's fun. You're also super big into superheroes. And so tell us a little bit about that. How's that where does that come from?

SPEAKER_00 4:53

So for me, I've always been a comic book fan, right? I remember even in elementary school in grade three, I would have this one comic book that I really love to go and read. And during my spare time, I would take it out and just read it during breaks during class, so much so that the cover was completely torn. It's not worth anything whatsoever. But even then I would remember the storylines and all those type of things. And so that's something I've just always really grown up with, right? And you know, back then comic books was kind of a nerdy thing. Now it's more mainstream as people see, you know, the the DC universe and Marvel cinematic universe come to life, and now it's kind of like, oh, now it's a cool thing. So for me, it's kind of a interesting transition where I've always grown up with it, and now it's something that's more popular. And I think for me, the things that really resonate with me from comic books is just that, you know, there's people that that are born with it as well as people that develop superpowers, and how it integrates with my coaching approach is really helping people understand what are their superpowers, right? And how do I bring those to the forefront to be able to go and solve the problems that they have. If I look at, you know, Batman or whatnot, he doesn't always use the same tool out of his utility belt to be able to go and solve the crime, as well as with X-Men and Mutants, you know, they have to use their powers in innovative ways to be able to go and defeat the villain, right? Whoever or whatever that might be. And I love using that same type of analogy with my clients of, you know, what made you a hero in one project might make you a villain in the next. And so being able to go and understand how you're using your your your powers appropriately, right? People used to call it soft skills, I think. I call them power skills. I I know PMI has changed that that aspect as well, where they call them power skills. Right. So for me, it really just I guess reinforces the the area of there's the technical knowledge pieces, but then there's all of these elements of ourselves, our authenticity, of our own culture that we can bring into these situations. And sometimes we may not necessarily know the appropriate way to apply it. And for me as a coach, it's being to understand how how do we grow, what other skills might I need to add to my utility belt or add to my arsenal? And then how do I use them appropriately, right? Because you could still get yourself in trouble even if you have the best superpower, right? So for me, that that's where that analogy from the comic book world going into the work and environment, right? The corporate world, that's how I find that relationship just really fun and also a little bit more engaging than just the standard, hey, just be better. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

Well, it's kind of giving you a niche in the market, right? Because project management can be a little dull. So it's giving you a bit of a niche to to kind of play with. And I I love too that now you kind of have more of an opportunity with AI as well to kind of create some cool graphics with that and stuff. And it's a it's a lot of fun to follow you. Now, there's some people that it's like, oh, okay, well, they have you know this or that, but Ben Ben Chan is a fun one to follow. So I would highly recommend that. All right, let's get down to business. You've described yourself as a project manager who was parachuted into troubled projects in order to get them back on track. So, in in that arena, what patterns did you repeatedly observe or do you still repeatedly observe? And what do those experiences teach you about the real causes of project failure?

SPEAKER_00 8:33

I think a lot of the time if something's behind schedule, usually, right? And sometimes there's the over budget piece of it, is like, hey, we just have to work harder. Right. That's usually the default behavior of we just need to put our back into it and just grind it more because that's how we're gonna get it done. And I'll be honest, I used to go and believe that as well, right? Starting up inside of my consulting career, be like, I just need to go and work harder rather than thinking about how do we work more effectively. And what that looks like can be things around process, it can be governance, but there's also a lot involved in terms of the people side. And it is a side that sometimes we ignore because it's easy to ignore it. If you put a process in, it's like, ah, it's the process fault. If we put governance in, uh, you know, it's just the governance portion that's broken, right? But you don't have to have those tough conversations with people around, hey, how maybe your attitude needs to change, or maybe their capability isn't there, right? When someone says I can't do it, what does that exactly mean? Does that mean they they actually can't do it because they don't have the tools, they don't have the capability, maybe they don't have the motivation, right? And so sometimes that pattern of just being able to say, you just need to take a stranglehold on it and and really buckle down and do it, it's like that's a very surface level way of being able to go and solve it. And when that doesn't, when the team doesn't respond to that, right, that's when they say, we need to go and change out the project manager. Because they say you've kind of lost the room, just like you know, when people watch sports teams, right? Football, for me, it's more hockey, right? It's that oh, you've lost, you've lost the room. Yeah, you've lost the room. So we got to go and have a uh a coaching change, right? And to an extent, that might be that might be true, but a lot of it is also because the coach is more trying to reinforce their way of doing it. And sometimes it's more of just how we're communicating, how we're working together. If I keep yelling at my team to go and work harder, you know what? I might actually get the opposite result. They might just be saying, I'm done with this. I've worked, you know, 80 hours per week. I'm so done with this, I don't want to work harder anymore, right? Yeah, I can say then it just continues to perpetuate.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

In my career, never have I had somebody yell and and pound the gavel at me that made me want to work harder.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

I mean, I'm a pretty hard worker, I'm pretty self-disciplined, but no, um, being mad at me or angry at me or frustrated at, you know, me for something that's out of my control is is usually not the way to motivate me to get things done. Yeah, I love that Yance. That's it's really important for us as leaders to remember that that we need to be encouraging of our teams and aware of what they're walking through, right? Sometimes personally too, because there can be personal struggles that are that are holding back what we're capable of doing for a little while. And if we're just understanding of that as a whole, I think that we can get a lot more accomplished together. Like, hey, if you're struggling right now, let's, you know, come in as a team and help help you out and and help continue to move the project forward instead of just stalling or everybody losing lack of motivation. And so that's that's a really, really great answer. Yeah. Um, I'm gonna let Sloan take it for a little bit, ask a couple questions, and and and we'll just kind of dialogue from there.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

Uh all right, Benjamin. Why do so many technically strong project managers still struggle with stakeholder buying in, communication, and team motivation?

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Well, I want to say that a lot of those things aren't trained, right? Like you don't get a lot of training on those type of areas. And employers, I would say even more so now than ever, are expecting people to get trained on those type of things and build that capability on their own dime and in their own time, which is difficult, right? And so they're having to go and learn on the job. And also, I think from the technical project manager perspective, and I'm not trying to go and knock any of the talk technical project managers. I was one of those, you know, we come up from an accidental perspective of you're really good at doing the technical work. Now I want you to go and manage people to go and do it. Here's the thing there's a huge mindset shift that needs to go and happen when you're moving away from the technical work and then now having to go and lead people. And again, they don't have they don't necessarily have all the training and the the support to be able to go and lead appropriately, right? So even from a Gallup poll and and this was you know a little bit dated, I'll say, but it I think it still applies back in 2016, where a Gallup poll was done and it and it showed that one out of ten people are have have that natural capability to go and lead people. That means nine out of ten people have no clue. That is not good. Exactly. They're modeling off of things that they know or things that they've seen, right? So maybe you get it from your parents, maybe you get it from your teachers, maybe you get it from bad bosses and good bosses, and you're trying to go and determine how do I lead appropriately, right? So what happens when you move into that from into a technical project management space is you assume people are still a technical problem. Hey, if I give this to you, I I provide my input and then output will magically happen, right? That is an assumption, it's not necessarily a correct assumption, but it's a it's an educated assumption based off of what they currently have. And so I think that's where that struggle is, is that that area isn't really trained on. It's not really focused on no one tells you how to go and do it. You go through trial and error to to work through it. And it's good from the perspective of you get to learn a lot of what to do and what not to do, but it is a very stressful type of way to go and learn, right? So that to me, I think is is kind of that large gap that a lot of people see. And and I think part of it too is it's also hard to work from an empathy perspective in those type of situations. Rather than saying, hey, you know, I'm wondering why aren't they able to go and get this done? What is what what are they going through that I need to go and support with? And instead it's like, can you just get it done? Why aren't you getting it done? And I don't mean that from an empathetic perspective either, right? It's just like you you better have a good reason as to why you're not getting it done. And and and you work from a command and control because that's very natural, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

So not good necessarily, but and I think there has to be like there has to be a happy medium, right? We can't just, you know, as a leader, we can't just go, hey, do, you know, do whatever you want, everything's willy-nilly. Um, but where uh to go back to you, you have to train your people and train them well. If you would have expectations of them to do something that's outside of their normal will house, you can't have the expectation that, oh, you're just supposed to figure it all out and know it. Like you said, you you really need to train your people to to be able to complete the task that they're gonna complete to the best of their ability. If they have no knowledge, um if there's no knowledge base there, I mean it's it's not to say that they couldn't get it done. There's a lot of things that I've learned in my career that I just learned by doing. I'm not yeah I'm not gonna say it was all bad, and and we learn by failing too, right? But we don't want to fail a whole project because we didn't train our team or give them the tools, like you said, to do the things that they need to do and do them well. And so that's where wonderful people like you come in, where you come in and you train teams or where you consult and you give advice. And so you have a consulting company. And so you do, is that right? I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Yeah, I do consulting and coaching. So there's areas where I am working to go and deliver or provide advice. And other times I'll work as purely as a coach, basically helping them understand what will work inside of their situation, right? And the this is where I really find coaching to be really powerful, is that when I go into these engagements, is that I don't know all the details of their context, their situation, right? Who's their boss, how's that environment, what's their culture like, all those type of things. But they do. So rather than me telling them, hey, you know, you should go and tell your sponsor to go and buzz off because that's what worked for me, right? Right. Sure. That that that could be one way to go and do it. And then they come back to me uh, you know, a while later and say, hey, yeah, I'm looking for a job now, right? That's totally not what I want to be able to happen.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

Let me give you my resume.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Exactly. But instead, it's being able to go and help that person in their situation to say, what is the best solution I can come up with? And I work through them with questions and being able to go and work with them to develop their action plan to move forward, rather than me just saying, you need to go and do this. They I work with them to go and figure that out.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

That's so good and so important. Um and I think that not enough, not enough people, not enough corporations or industries take advantage of that. I know not even remotely on the same level as you, but I I do some executive coaching and things like that. And it is, it's like you kind of have to dig to kind of figure out, well, what's really the source of the problem? And sometimes the source of the problem is not at all what we think it is going in. But yeah, the answer I don't think I'm not gonna say never ever, but I don't think the answer is to tell your boss or your superior to just, you know, I'm not doing it or whatever. So all right, Sloan, what's next?

SPEAKER_03 18:15

I feel like that was just a reminder for me not to come and tell you I'm not doing it. She's just getting her caveat in there so I don't get a little wild after this podcast. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't. Okay, Benjamin, which leadership capabilities have the greatest impact on helping project managers deliver successful outcomes?

SPEAKER_00 18:34

That's a tough one because I don't think it's any one skill. I always view it as they're all going to be combining together to be able to get to that success, right? If I just say, hey, you just need to have emotional intelligence, okay, well, it doesn't mean anything if you can't communicate properly, right? It doesn't mean anything if you don't follow it up with action. It doesn't mean anything if you don't have integrity around some of these things. It's like, yeah, I'm emotional intelligent, I'm not flying off the handle. But if you're not also then pushing that outwards to then create an impactful action, then that's lost, right? But then also doing emotional action, you know, or doing action without having that emotional intelligence in place, that also can put you in a bad spot. So it's it's tough. I can't pinpoint it on on one single thing. But I think the way that we can think about it, especially with working with people, is that you're constantly going to be working through a position of trust that will hopefully elevate you in how you're delivering and how people perceive you. And every action that you're doing, whether it's a decision or or or whatnot, and any anything you're also choosing not to do, right? It's a little bit of a transaction into your into that trust bank that you're having with the other individuals, whether it's your team or your sponsor, another executive. And so I think really just being thoughtful around that and and if anything, I will say maybe not the most important thing, but where it has to start from is self-awareness. Self-awareness of understanding yourself and knowing who you are, how you're thinking, what are the thoughts going on there, and then dissecting it and understanding is that rational? Is it not? Am I flying off the handle? Or am I just spouting things off and putting things into Twitter or whatnot without a thought, right? So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Yeah, that's a that's a fantastic answer to a really complicated question. And and I like that you brought up the fact of integrity because I think that that's a common ground that maybe we could all decide if we were all in a room, right? That we could come to agreement on integrity. We might have different beliefs, we might have different backgrounds, we might come from different places, but integrity as a whole to do the right thing regardless of what you know, some there there's times when we're like we're tempted or whatever, like, oh, it would be easier if I just did this or if I just did that, but that's not the integrity of the situation and doing what's right regardless. And sometimes that's really, really hard, especially in corporate. Um, it's hard for people to kind of get past that and go, well, I gotta do the right thing regardless. It might cost me my job sometimes, right? If I do the right thing. Because there might be people above you that aren't doing the right thing. I mean, that becomes really, really difficult, becomes a really, really nasty kind of area to be in. Um, and so I I like that you brought that up because I think it's an important part of uh of the discussion of how to lead well. And I don't know that you can lead well without integrity. And and we were talking before we came on, you know, leading isn't just for the top. Um, leading, you know, you need to lead wherever your position is. Whether you're leading yourself well, um, like you said, with integrity, or whether you're helping to lead others into their next position or into a better, you know, situation. Situation or lead through the project. So let's talk a little bit about that. What what's your take on leadership as a whole, not just from the top?

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Yeah, I think everyone can go and lead wherever they are, whether they're employees, whether at the bottom, whether at the top. It's just it everyone has that capability. And if anything, it's more of a matter of perspective and mindset, right? So I I want to just loop back onto the integrity piece because when we talk about people doing the right thing, and us as leaders, whether you're an employee or a team member, project manager, executive, and whatnot, we all have our own interpretations of what is right. And that's always a little bit tough. That's true. Someone that's always following a process may think they're doing it right. Someone that has a very good customer focus is like, screw the process, we gotta do what's right for the customer. Right. They also feel that they're right. And so the funny thing for me, again, relating back to the comic book side, is like the best villains are the ones that think they're the heroes. They always feel like they're doing the right thing.

unknown 23:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Right?

SPEAKER_00 23:07

And we can see that. Yeah, we we can see that in our world right now.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

And so part of it is our interpretation of what's right or or wrong is somewhat subjective to a certain extent. There are things that are objective, but there, but when we're working in a lot of these gray areas, a lot of that can be subjective. And when we are looking at it from, I think part of it is when we're working in our either lower positions or higher positions is understanding what are the different perspectives coming into play, right? Again, that's kind of the emotional intelligence side of it. How are they viewing it? How are other people viewing it? And how am I viewing myself inside of these things? The area of even say, you know, quote unquote low-level employees. And I'm not trying to go in and diss them at all. I I I very much respect people that are even in the fast food industry, right? Sure. I meant for a lot of people coming into university, coming out of university and whatnot. And I use the example of a fast food worker that sometimes they're working there and they're flipping the burgers, and they're just like, yeah, I'm just doing this because I'm flipping burgers and just doing that. But if you understand your perspective of, hey, look, there's this whole optimized entire process that's been able to go and be created in such a way that I can get a meal in two minutes or less, right? We go back a hundred years, two minutes or less to get a to get a you know, meal, that's crazy. That's insane. You would never be able to go and see that, right? And so when we take a different perspective as to what we're doing, what impact we're making inside of our job and the larger impact we're having on it, as well as what else is flowing into it, then it gives us a greater appreciation of what we're doing and how we can lead from that position.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

That's really good. Yeah. And back real quick, back to the integrity piece, too. That's so important that you said that, that not everyone's expectations or understanding of what the what that is are the same. And I think that's really, really important for leaders to listen up to because that's why it's so important that you communicate what your expectations as the leader are. Our expectations of this organization are X, Y, and Z. Because if you don't discuss or put that stuff forward, then your team does not know. And so, like you said, there may be somebody that's like, hey, customer service is number one. I'm gonna die on that hill. And that may be part of the expectation of the organization, right? But it may not be across the board. It may be because I I would venture to say, hey, our customers are very important. I always want you to treat our customers with the utmost respect and to treat them fairly and with integrity, as you know, what's right within our organization. But also, I would go so far to say as that for me and in the way that I lead, I want everyone to be able to treat my employees or the people who are on my team with kindness and emotional intelligence. So if somebody comes in, um, let's say, let's let's just use like a hotel, for example. If somebody comes in and is like screaming and yelling and throwing a fit at the employees, that's not tolerated. And so we need to know what the differences are. Like, yes, customer service is very important, right? It's very important that we always treat the customer nice and things like that. For the customer to come and treat our people with, you know, huge amounts of disrespect and stuff. That doesn't mean that our people are just supposed to cow down. You shouldn't yell at the customer either. But I think there's a happy medium. So I think that's why it's important as leaders that we're very, very clear about what that means in our organization because you're right, it's not the same thing for everyone. And so if we're leading in an organization from the higher up, we need to be clear to everyone across the board as these are the expectations. Sloane, you got anything on that?

SPEAKER_03 26:58

I do have something on that. I, you know, it's been the last couple of years. Benjamin, I don't, I don't know. It's probably not like this in Canada. This is probably an American thing, but in all of our hospitals and doctors' offices, we have signs that say, do not harass our staff. It is a felony to harass, you know, medical care workers. And I just remember thinking, who would have to say that? Why do we have to why do we have to let that be the expectation? You know, why do it shouldn't that be the expectation for everyone? But it isn't. And so that was always it's still wild to me that there's still, I mean, prominently in every doctor's office, every medical facility, we have the reminder that it's it's a felony to to do that. And I think that's so wild, but some people I guess have to hear it.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Well, this is this is an interesting point because I think society has changed in such a way that we have a lot of these beliefs and values ingrained into us, right? And let's say if we go back to the medical example, right? Of one, maybe it's their frustration is around me first, right? Around I want to get the service that I think I deserve and that I'm entitled to, right? As well as, you know, I'm not gonna dive into all the other things necessarily politically around it, but also things around, let's say, anti-vaccination and deep belief deep-seated beliefs on that, and then the conflict that it comes in with medical staff and their expectation to be able to go and deliver the services that they need to be able to keep up with our Hippocratic oath, right? And so, yeah, it's just I mean, part of it I'm gonna blame is a little bit of social media where you feel like, hey, I can blurt anything out into the world and I'm entitled to I got that right to be able to do that, and that can very easily bleed into the real world where, hey, when you're away from the computer, that doesn't matter. I can yell at people in caps on Reddit or Instagram or Facebook, whatever it might be. And you know what? I think I can go and do that in real life too. And so the lack of consequence sometimes that, you know, now you gotta put those signs in there to go and say there is a consequence to that type of behavior.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Yeah, it's crazy. I don't feel like that's a a positive evolution in in humanism. I feel like I feel like that's kind of going backwards, but it it is sometimes we I I think I think you're right too. I think the the social media is a is a big aspect to it. It's like, you know, when we say, oh, you can say whatever you want, it doesn't mean you should. It doesn't mean that you you you should be blurting out everything that you want to say. Sometimes that stuff you need to you need to deal with that internally um with your own self, or you might need to have a private conversation with someone, with, with a mentor or coach or something and say, hey, this situation's going on. But I think we have kind of gotten into a culture of like, oh, well, we can just kind of spit anything out that we want to, and it's okay, and you have to accept what I say. Well, first of all, it's not okay, and it's it's not, I'm not gonna say normal. I think it's good to express our emotions and things that we're feeling, and um, I think it's good to express our opinions on things, but you can't, you can't force that upon other people, and especially in settings like Son's talking about, like in a medical facility, there's just common decency, I think, that's just not appropriate.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

It is, but if I bring it back to the leadership perspective, right, is that there's this there's a fundamental rewiring of how our psychology works and how we work and build relationships with other people, right? And social media is one, COVID quarantine and the whole thing across the world, that's been another, right? So university students are going into classes, going, I don't know how to make friends. How do I meet people, even though they're in lecture halls and stuff right now? Because there's a couple of years in their formative years where they were not able to go and practice it and do it normally, right? And social media has exacerbated that. And so when we look at how the leaders have to go and work with this, and even people seeing themselves as leaders, right, they have a very twisted view of how do I go and build a relationship or trust with others? How do I relate to one another? And instead of actually talking with people, they make assumptions or they swipe left or right and then hold and then it goes away, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Yeah. Yeah, very valid point too. Um, I'm I'm old. You know, COVID, I think, you know, it it I'm not gonna say it wasn't effect, but for a couple of different reasons, I'm in a little bit different spot. One, I was already working from home at the time. Um, and so it I was already home. I was already like in a home remote environment before that was quote unquote the the norm. And so there was that. And then in addition to that, um, I'm I'm just old. And so I was already like primed. I already knew how to like I think it was, you know, but I but I've seen it. I've seen it in people that I know, in in younger people that I'm around and things like that. There is there's a disconnect. It's not there's positives from it too, right? There's things that they can bring to the table that I can't bring to the table because I was just in a different spot. And and Slone's much younger than me. And so she brings a different perspective as well, which I'm so grateful for. And I think it's important too in the leader roles and when we're setting up our teams and we're choosing who who to be on our teams and not, it's important to make those diverse teams because there is something that everybody can kind of bring to the table. But we do have to be mindful that we're not, we were not all raised the same. We are not, we've not all walked through the same things, we're not all of the same culture, we're not all of the same beliefs. Um and it's important that we kind of try to come to a common ground at that table in our teams, um, and that leaders try to facilitate the I would I would go so far to say is like the kind of like meshing together of all of that. Because it is, it's it's kind of a strange time. I mean I think about I think it's kind of a strange time, but then I think back like a hundred, like you said, like a hundred years ago or something. Like it was it was probably a strange time then too, right? Like there was things that happened, there was things that went on um that was that were that were strange then as well. Um so we just kind of have to adapt to that. All right, Sloan.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

All right, Mr. Benjamin, here we go. How can organizations better support project managers before performance issues become crisis?

SPEAKER_00 33:20

I think it's understanding what their support mechanism is. Right now we're seeing a huge trend of one is layoffs, just organizations getting rid of people outright. And the people that they're there, I'm seeing more and more where training budgets and things are also being cut. And that means that project managers, leaders, employees, whoever they might be, they're on their own to be able to go and improve themselves and figure out what do they need support with, right? And yet they go into their employee reviews and they get hammered saying, you need to do this, you need to go and do that. Great, but we're not gonna support you with actually achieving any of those things. So I think part of it is understanding whether you're you're going to support people for the long game, or you're just trying to go and squeeze out what they can out of them and replace them, right? And that's a tough dynamic because I know there's also the rise of the gig economy where people are taking a lot more temporary pieces, or they'll have a full-time job and still work other positions on top of it, right? And so that's also a risk to the organization, but that whole loyalty piece is also out the window as well. I think people have now just said, I don't need to be loyal, there's no pensions or anything unless you're inside usually a public position, right? And so loyalty is kind of like, hey, I'm gonna go with the highest bidder, I'm gonna go with whoever's gonna pay me or does what I want to go and have. And so then it then starts to go in spiral. I don't need to go and support you because you're gonna leave anyway, and I'm gonna leave anyway because I'm not being supported. So you create this, you're right, you create this cycle that goes down. And so, you know, I've been I've been more emphasizing actually over the the past little while and speaking with different PMI chapters about what is the importance of culture inside of your project team and understanding how it fits within your organization. And it's not necessarily I don't want to necessarily tie it to loyalty, but you're more inclined to have people go and stay and work through that, reduce that work at worker attrition through culture rather than just trying to throw money at it and blasting people to just get work done. Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:46

Yeah, I 100% agree with that on a really, really high level. I'm gonna let Sloan talk about that a little bit, but but first, like I can I can attest to that I I have in the past very much been much more motivated to work in environments for less money than if the culture and the environment is positive, if it's encouraging, if they're willing to teach me and guide me. Because I very much think that there's a lot of value and benefit and trade-off in learning different things, learning, having the autonomy to learn those things, having the the quiet and the peace and the time where you're you're paying your people to learn and grow and develop. I'm a huge proponent of that. I've talked about that on some of the other episodes. You have got to pour into your people in the way of allowing them to learn and grow, whether it's emotional intelligence, whether it's a specific, you know, test or item that you're asking them to do. If you put them on a project and you have expectations of them, we need to be clear of those expectations, but also allow them to learn and grow into those roles. Um, so I'm gonna let Sloane has been in the trenches on this. Um I'm gonna let her speak a little bit about that too.

SPEAKER_03 37:02

It is, I have been at them at a before this job, I was at a place where there was not any support at all. And anything that you did to grow professionally was uh viewed as a threat. And so you it was um, you became the villain because you were doing professional development and growing. And so that was a very difficult place uh to be in. Um, of course, I I wasn't then excited about growing professionally, right? Because I knew that there was gonna be backlash. And so then you have this place where no one's growing professionally. The people that are trying are finding themselves in trouble for doing that because they're a threat. And what do you have? And that was a very stagnant culture. And I can tell you this our stakeholders felt it and they saw it, and our customer base felt it and they saw it. They knew um that it that it was stagnant, that we were going nowhere, there was no growth, and it was more of well, it's good as it gets, you know, if you don't like it, don't come back. You know, and that was that was that they didn't come back. Yeah, they didn't come back. Like, okay, no problem, you know, and so it was it was tough, and I'm very thankful for the most part. Miss Amanda, she really pushes me out of my comfort zone. And so like I'm I'm thankful for the support. But then sometimes I'm like, listen here, boss, I'm feeling really chauffed right now. But she knows, you know, I I need to do it for me, I need to do it for our organization, need to do it for our customers, our clients. And so she really encourages me to continue to be continually growing professionally. And so when you have that, you're very appreciative. I'm very appreciative. When you come from a place where it wasn't like that, yeah, you're doubly appreciative. And so I am on the other side of that. And I am so thankful and I'm thankful to to be here with Amanda and at IOL Global and to be supported. It is important. Even when she asks me to do really hard things, I know she's gonna be there and she's gonna support me. And it's okay to make a mistake, but we're gonna fail forward.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

So yeah, and I I mean, I'm not gonna say like I'm 100% excellent all the time, but I've had some really, really good years of training and example of that. And again, I'm a huge proponent. You have got to give your teams the ability and the freedom to learn. You know, a lot of times with with Sloane and Amy, I'll say, hey, you know, here, here's something like a a webinar or a course or whatever. I want you to take the time, paid time, and I want you to go to it and I want you to learn and I want you to absorb it and whatever. I cannot, I can't really stand on that hill any higher because it's just so important, I think. Now, can your employees or your team members or whatever, can they constantly be learning all the time? No, I need you to do work too. Um, it's important that we get the the job done or the project done. But I think it's important that we're well equipped to do it in a multitude of ways. And and to be honest with the feedback about it, like, hey, this really wasn't that beneficial. Let's not do this again, or don't give it to another employee to do. So that was kind of a soapbox we went off on.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

No, absolutely. And I think part of it is when an organization looks at being able to support their employees through training or whatever that might be, is whether they're gonna view it as an expense or an investment. Yes. Right? Is this going to go, you're gonna take it and it's gonna go nowhere, or is it gonna help our organization in the end to be able to grow and reach the goals that we want to, right? And I think again, you know, I I'm gonna go back to a little bit about the coaching side of it, not necessarily my coaching, but any any type of coaching is helping people where they're at. And that's the really important thing because you say, you know, we we still want to be able to go and deliver what we can. I can't have you just doing training all the time. And the beauty of coaching is it's helping to advance you in where you are right now, so you can see those results and actions, hopefully in a very short period of time, and that's a continual thing versus hey, I go to a you know, uh, a one-day workshop and I'm gonna try and practice maybe one thing that I've pulled out of it, and but I don't know if I'm doing it well, and then you go back into a default state, right? For me, it's like I like to go and do the the workshops, but then it's the coaching alongside of it. So we actually see how are we integrating all of these things into a day-to-day basis to actually make impact and changes in the way that you work and the results that you're seeing.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

Yeah. Wholeheartedly agree. And that's one of the things that I admire so much about you, Ben, is that you're not just in it for a day workshop or, you know, a webinar or whatever, you're in it for the long haul with your clients. Something I have respected about you for a really, really long time. And I think that that's another niche that you have in the industry as well is that you're there, you're available, you're willing to have these conversations with people and help them in their growth, but not just for the moment. It's for the long haul. And I think that's so important. Super shout out for that. All right. So we want to be respectful of your time, of course. And so on this particular podcast, we ask every single guest the same two questions when we follow up. Um, and nobody has answered the same yet. And so we're gonna ask you the same two questions. I'll let Sloane ask the first one and then I'll ask the last one.

SPEAKER_03 42:21

All right, who has had the greatest influence on your leadership and why?

SPEAKER_00 42:25

So I can think of two. One is my mother, and just, you know, her struggles and being able to go in and raise me. I think there was a lot of countercultural things, at least from an Asian background, that she ingrained uh within me. Um now she passed away when I was in university and such from cancer. But the lessons I took from her have really just resonated throughout my entire life and being able to go and work through that. And I think the other one would be uh my old uh boss before I went uh into independent consulting and coaching, is uh Robin Ald. He really gave me kind of a different perspective of how to look at project management as well as how to look at the different uh relationships involved, as well as providing different opportunities for me to be able to go and see what leadership looks like for myself. That has been where I've been able to, I'd say, pivot into a lot of different industries and a lot of different projects that I would say I wasn't super well equipped to be able to go and do. But he certainly pushed me into going into these areas that I would have never dreamed of.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

Yeah. Um, so on two counts on that. Um one as a boy mom, um, every mom hopes that that will be the answer one day. And I also lost my mom to cancer. So I understand that there is um a love and connection there. So one great answer for number one. And number two, I also have had such a unique Opportunity to have some great people, great leaders in my life to pour into me like that. So shout out to Robin and to be able to do that for you as well. Because you have definitely you definitely shine. You definitely have great emotional intelligence and and mentorship skills and coaching skills. So before we go to the next question, I'll just shout out like anybody looking for for this type of um you know consulting or um coaching, highly recommend Ben. Highly recommend that you check him out, follow him, see what he's doing, hire him because he's amazing. All right, last question we're gonna ask you. What kind of legacy, Ben, do you hope that you leave through your leadership and the impact of your work?

SPEAKER_00 44:41

I think if I just boil it down to a very simple concept, is I hope people can just do better. That's it. Just do better in what they work, do better in how they treat people, do better in in how they can go and elevate others, help them make more leaders, and be more thoughtful around it. Think there's a lot going on right now in the world where we can see people saying one thing and then doing another, right? They can look really good on paper, and then once I get in there, it's like, oh, you're not exactly what was advertised. I'm hoping people can see, you know, the authentic things around me of both the good and the bad, right? There's gonna be times I I may fly off the handle, who knows? Um, definitely things I need to go in control about. Even things around project management. Like I'll make a confession right now. When I was in university and engineering school taking project management courses, I fell asleep in half of them, right? So it this wasn't my destiny to be a project manager, but I hope it allows people to just continue to go and improve themselves and hopefully, you know, that will just continue to go and spread. So yeah, quite simply, just helping people do better.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Sound advice. And I I like it. Um, I think that I'm I'm a big believer of that as well. I think we should wake up each day with with it at least start the day. So and I try really hard every day to start the day as like we're gonna do better today. It's gonna be, you know, um, yesterday we had one of those days is like I had every day I have a notebook and I just put on there, you know, like my little checkoffs, what I'm gonna do for the day. Um and I had three things. And I was like, oh, this is gonna be a pretty decent day, right? And I so I had three things, boom, boom, boom. It was gonna be the end of the day when she was getting ready to leave. I was like, Do you see my checklist? I have done nothing, nothing on this list. We just got hit with Microsoft wanting to act insane. This wanted to go crazy, that one. And so sometimes it's like that, right? But even in those moments, what sound advice that is is just to do better, do better, have a better attitude, have a better attitude when things don't go your way. Um, or when you know Microsoft shuts down or deletes your bookings pages or whatever. Just do better.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

Also, Microsoft, do better because we need our bookings pages, exactly, right?

SPEAKER_00 46:53

That's what we want.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

Yeah, we just want you to do better too, so we can do better. Mr. Binchan, what an honor to have you on, truly. Um, I know we've we've worked on some projects in the past, um, and I've gotten to know you a little bit there, but um just a super honor. There is no doubt in the conversations that we've had in the past and just and just kind of watching what you do, that you're just a wonderful soul, um, so kind-hearted and so good, and you just really want everybody to win um and do better. And also your northern accent, I love it. I so I don't know if you know this, I don't know if we talked about this before. I I grew up until I was eight in North Dakota. Um, and I got to go to Canada once. Um, I was pretty little, but I do remember going over the border. Um I was with my grandparents and my parents, it was a pretty like momentous occasion. So your northern accent's great. Um, a lot of people in the south will tell me I still have a northern accent. I'm like, I don't hear it. They're like, oh, you do. They're like, Yeah, you do. Um but anyhow, it's it's it's interesting to hear because you probably don't notice it as much as some of us, especially some of us way down in the south of of America. So honor to have you on. Thank you. Thank you for all that you give to the community as well. Because I know that you give a lot. Um, you do a lot and you give a lot of yourself. And so um, I hope nothing but the best for you and pray blessings over you and your family, and just hope that you can continue to flourish and and do amazing things because I I love seeing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Yeah, no, thanks so much for having me onto your podcast. It's definitely an honor and a pleasure being able to go and just share my knowledge. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

You're a super smart guy. I I don't know if everyone knows how incredibly brilliant you are. When we've had conversations in the past, I walk away every time like he's so smart, way smarter than me. So um, yeah, it it's truly an honor.

SPEAKER_03 48:51

Sloan, do you have anything before we wrap up? I was just gonna tell Benjamin we appreciate your time, and I'm gonna go today and I'm gonna do better. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

We can always do better, right?

SPEAKER_03 49:00

Even if it's just in one area, better today. Yeah, that's it. Thank you for your time, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Thank you.