Is There Really a God? | Creation Demands a Creator | Echoing Truth Podcast

Is there really a God?

It’s one of the oldest and most important questions humanity has ever asked.

In this episode, we explore the powerful evidence for God’s existence through:

•  Creation and intelligent design 
•  Morality and conscience 
•  Truth, purpose, and meaning 
•  The problem with atheism 
•  Why the universe points to a Creator 
•  What the Bible says about God 

If creation exists, does it demand a Creator?

Can something truly come from nothing?

And if God is real… what does that mean for us?

Using Scripture, logic, and biblical teaching inspired by John MacArthur’s theology, this discussion tackles the deepest questions about life, truth, and eternity.

Key Scriptures Discussed

•  Psalm 19:1 
•  Romans 1:20 
•  Genesis 1:1 
•  Hebrews 3:4 
•  Romans 2:14–15 
•  Ecclesiastes 12:13–14 

Featured Question

 “Is it harder to believe that God created everything… or that nothing created everything?”

About the Podcast

Echoing Truth is a Christian theology podcast devoted to rediscovering the unchanging truth of God’s Word and applying it to our modern world.

Hosted by Todd Demoff alongside his wife Amy and a close friend seeking to understand faith within today’s cultural landscape, the show combines biblical teaching, theological reflection, and thoughtful conversation.

Truth doesn’t need to be reinvented.
 It needs to be echoed.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

In an age of uncertainty and spiritual noise, there is still a firm foundation. God's word is steady, his truth is sufficient. This is echoing truth. Anchored in scripture, engaged with culture, helping you stand firm.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

All right, welcome to Echoing Truth, where we bring God's truth into the conversations that matter most. Um, so we're gonna begin a turn. And I know that we started several weeks ago um uh a series on prayer. And I think for us, I'm still going through that series, but we're gonna take a little turn with the podcast and begin to answer some hot button topics that we know people are looking for answers on these topics, and I think that they're gonna challenge our faith because they're big. I mean, and today we're just I'm gonna lay it right out there. Is there really a God?

SPEAKER_04 0:57

Ooh, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Powerful, tough question. I mean, it's a tough question. And I guess I'll ask you guys this. Have you ever debated that in your life?

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Uh, with myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Yeah, yeah. I mean, inward, have you ever come to the point where you're like, is there?

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Yeah. Yeah, when I was a kid, um, I remember laying on the trampoline, looking up at the stars, going, There's gotta be something. Before I was actually saved, there's gotta be something. There's such a big world out there, yeah. And yeah, it's just I think that's a question all of us have to struggle with at some point in our lives.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Yeah, I've been blessed to be a Christian all my life. So I grew up in a family that, you know, just I was introduced to faith at age five. And so God always existed in my mind. I don't know a reality in which God doesn't exist. And um, you know, going through Bible college and and just, you know, being in God's word all of my life, really, um, it's sometimes hard to understand people who question God. Um, and so I'm gonna get right to my point, which I guess this is what I want to talk about today as we contemplate this. If someone comes up to us tomorrow and poses this question to us, is there really a God? Do you feel ready to answer it? Yeah. Because if I was, this is where I would start.

SPEAKER_04 2:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

That creation demands a creator. Yeah. And I think it's probably the most obvious starting point for me in answering a question like that. Um, and I have scripture, and I think what I want to do in just trying to answer this question for people who are genuinely seeking, and maybe even for ourselves, and we can just chat about these scriptures, is answering this question that it that it's satisfactory to us, but we're also confident that if people could hear it and understand it and contemplate it, that it could change them, maybe persuade them. Um, I think about Paul, who always was making an argument, you know, that that people would would hear them. And I think as we deal with these hot topic questions, um, that we could just kind of chat about it enough that we can answer some questions. So I've got some scriptures. Let's start in Psalms, Psalm 19, one, and it says, the heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Amen. Great starting point, right? Scripture just immediately declares that God is. In Romans 1, um, it it's a little broader, but I kind of want to read the whole thing because I always reference Romans 1 when it comes to our culture today and where we are. So listen to this. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who by their unrighteousness suppress truth. Because truth is out there. We can get it, we can, we can understand it. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them, for his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made, so they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Again, declaring that God has made himself known to us. We can perceive it even from nature around us every day. And yet there are those who still ask this question is there really a God? Yeah. I find that absolutely uh astounding. A couple more. Oh, go ahead. No, I want to hear.

SPEAKER_04 4:46

I was thinking, you know, Nathan just jumped right in and said, Yeah, I I've thought that. Or not Nathan. My gosh. Lincoln. Um my brain. That's me. Um it's it for me, you know, listening to these scriptures, it again, I'm very much been raised since I was like seven years old being taught the Bible. And so it like it almost makes my mind I have to stop and really, really think about it, which I'm because I just believe it. Maybe that's a simplicity of my mind, but I feel like that's where I fall when is there really a God? I stop and my mind just automatically says, of course.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

But maybe that's the danger too with Christians as a whole, is that we do almost take it for granted. Yeah. Um, I I had this random thought, and I don't want to bunny trail here, but I had this random thought as I was outside this morning with my coffee, just trying to enjoy the morning. It was beautiful. Animals bouncing around. And and I've been going through the Old Testament, right? And enjoying every moment of it, just God revealing who he was through the Old Testament. Not the most exciting thing that people talk about, but it's been exciting for me. And I've been going through it for months now. And I had this thought as I was sitting there that God has revealed so much to me about who he is in the Old Testament that I didn't want that to leave me. Do you ever have that thought that just being in God's word, you know how it fuels you, it reminds you, it it um it was like supercharging my faith. And I had this random moment that um I as I go through it, I'm like, I don't, God, I don't want to, I don't want to forget this. So that comment, I guess that's what I think about, is that sometimes we're so as Christians, we're so used to hearing this.

SPEAKER_04 6:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Does it become too common?

SPEAKER_04 6:43

Or the base of what we believe is solid. So I mean it makes me want to be better at being able to communicate it with somebody. So I have to be thinking properly, like having the right arguments, like you're saying, in my mind. I think that's yeah, important. And we have super helpful.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Well, deflecting to scripture just as a whole, I think we need to be quick to do. Yeah, that's why I want to read these first because this is our base point, right? And answering a big question like, is there really a God? It's truth. Hebrews 3 4 says, For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. So again, scripture revealing the creator. Love it. Genesis 1:1, in the beginning, God. Uh as glorious as is, right out of the gates, it is God. Psalm 92, before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. So scripture reveals God as creator. There's no doubt, right? That as Christians, we know um, without a doubt, that the Bible declares there is a creator. So creation demands a creator. And I guess in thinking about this and answering this question, again, if I'm standing next to someone who's like, Come on, tell me, is there really a God? I guess that's the first question I'm gonna pose them who created all this?

SPEAKER_04 8:11

Where did that all come from?

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Right. I mean, are you ready to say nothing came or everything came from nothing? Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Yeah, we talked about that. Like I'm a car guy and I love cars. Where did that come from? You are a car guy. So if I see something really cool, I want to know who made that. Yeah. And so I know it. How can we ignore that out in the world when we see something that's beautiful? Like you mentioned, you're out drinking your coffee. And I've had those moments too, and I'm like, wow, that's just beautiful. So if you're an unbeliever, what do you say? You go, wow, that's pretty that that randomly came together. Yeah. Right. And knows what to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:50

And it functions, mechanically works, and everything is uh over the top awesome, bringing us to question it. So I think when you say where did it come from, and you say, Well, it just came from the Big Bang. Okay, well then this is like sixth grade science class for me. I remember being in sixth grade going, Well, well, where did the Big Bang come from? Yeah. And the the science teacher looked at me and went, Well, we don't know. Like, that's not an answer. So we have to believe by faith one way or the other. Either it s began with God or by what?

SPEAKER_01 9:35

I know I'm gonna hear that too. That's what's uh frightening is if I'm standing before someone, they're saying, is there really a God? And and I talk about God as creator, that there's going to be some discussion about now evolution, the Big Bang, it all came from a star, stardust. That's where we came from. And how how can I I just I guess I'm just amazed that anyone's mind can assume that the complexity of life could randomly evolve into anything. I mean, we've uh and I know I re I realize this is a very, very deep discussion. I'm not gonna go down the create or the evolution uh rabbit hole right now. I think we'll get to that. For sure. But but intelligence, this kind of creation that we can witness requires an intelligent creator, an intelligent designer. And I I use this all the time. This is my car, is my watch because the idea that this little thing that we now have strapped around us, which is now an amazing computer, can read your heartbeat. It can you can talk to it, it can talk to you, it reminds you of appointments in a in a in a day. I mean, it's really amazing what we got packed into here. It it would be insane in my mind. And I'm sorry to use those as strong, that strong language there.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

How dare you!

SPEAKER_01 10:56

But it would be insane to me to think that I could put rubber and metal and wires and gears in my pocket, shake it up, leave it there for even a thousand years, and it's gonna turn into anything other than a pocket full of rubber, wire, metal, whatever I put in there. Nothing's gonna change. And I do not evolve into an intelligent created thing.

SPEAKER_04 11:16

The design that that was was made by an intelligent person, a very intelligent person. That brain that that came up with this, or the team of people that came up with this, but then you you even let's think about the brain, right? Like that actually was able to create that. We're saying that this brain magically or somehow evolved without any designer. Yeah, the most complicated thing in the universe really is our brains because it's creative, it creates things, has to be bigger than us. It must be bigger than us. Yeah, intelligent design demand well, creation demands it, the the intelligence there.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

You know, and I I this is probably another point, but think about uh who we are. We're creators, we like to create you. Like to work with your car build things, thinker, electronics. We are created to be creators, right? Because we're created in the likeness of God. So we we have the same desire to create, form, and fashion and build and find logic and then set it loose as God did. It's like we are a reflection of that creative brilliance that who God is. He put it within all of us, so we witness it on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_04 12:33

Well, Drew is making a puppet right now, and it's just so cool to watch him, like the way his mind is working and how he's like literally fashioning it and making it and making his mouth move and doing it's creating a uh well, you know, in that in adamant object, but uh yeah, the creation process excites us, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Yeah, which I think is just again a reflection that creates needs a creator, yeah. And I think it's I don't see a good example anywhere here on uh among humanity that would ever say that's not true. Yeah. I mean, what what doesn't need a designer? No matter what you start with, no matter what project you're doing, there always has to be a design, a starting point, and uh an intellect that that guides you. So it's it's really difficult for me to understand any argument against this when it comes to is there really a God? There has to be a creator. So let's just talk about that. Who is is is God real? And let's look at these scriptures. But Christianity demands one big miracle, and I think we just have to be honest about that when we're talking with people. Like I'm I'm asking for you to believe in one miracle that brought about everything. The atheist, the the God denier, the creator, creator denier is basically believing in many miracles, all right, to turn into everything, right?

SPEAKER_04 14:05

Talk about long ago and far away, right? Long ago, far away, a petty fairy tale that feels much more hard. It's much harder to believe that there isn't a God in my mind than there is.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Yeah, I I love this, and I think this was uh uh a quote from John MacArthur, but it was says, if you see design, now think about this. If you see design, you already believe there's a designer.

SPEAKER_04 14:31

Oh, yeah, we wouldn't question it in any other form.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

You're just deciding who the designer is, who made this jacket? Yeah, we do this every day. Look at that car, was that Ford? Is that Gia? Who made you know? Uh, if we watch a movie, we're like, who produced this? Yeah, we are adamant that in everything else that we witness in life, when we see a design of any kind, we immediately think, Who did this? Yeah, I need to talk to them right now. Who wrote this? Um, but when it comes to the to God and the creation, it's no, there was nobody, there was nothing. So I find that fascinating. Um, other thoughts when it comes to answering this question is there really a God?

SPEAKER_02 15:11

Yeah, I I like your analogy with the watch. The watch was developed not just to be a hunk of something that sits on your arm, it has a purpose, right? It has a design. Right. So there are things that are built into that. Not only does it have a physical design that it fits on your wrist, it's adjustable, it has a magnetic, by the way. I don't even see that. Oh, that's yeah, that's even more complex. It's even more complex. So, and then and then beyond that physical design, there's a um software design. So there's now software built in. So a human has functioning different parts that work together, right? So that's like the physical piece, but then unseen to us, there's DNA, there's purpose within each of those cells to do a job. So you have structure of different pieces with different parts working together like your watch to accomplish a goal. And so I, you know, yeah, it is funny that we can say, Yeah, that's that's an Apple watch. Apple, a bunch of engineers at this company put this thing together. I'm gonna get some stock in Apple because this is brilliant, right? And and there are people that actually there are robots and machinery that has created that and put that together. Well, to go one step further, we are produced by what? Was there a little machine putting us together during conception? No, it's it's an automated process, right? And and when we believe in the Bible, it says that God stitched us together. So, how do you get us without any machinery or anything that like you were talking a miracle? That is a miracle, and then the other side of that, if you say, Well, there is no God, okay. Well, that's still a miracle. How is this functioning body coming out that's more complex than your watch without any machinery or anything so that we function? Because we we function with multiple different moving parts that are more sophisticated than that, than a car and everything else. Yeah, so those those kinds of things it has to ask the question is there a God? Is there a creator?

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Yeah, the amount of miracles you have to believe uh to get God out of the picture is it really is astounding. Um if your starting point is God did not exist, there is no uh designer, there is no um creator. The the amount of faith you have to have in nothing is really astounding to me. And and the only answer I can think of, and I'm just being real honest with you, you have to check out intellectually to come to a conclusion.

SPEAKER_04 17:54

Well, I would think that what happens is our minds go to um somebody smarter than me gave me the answer. I'm trusting the scientists, I'm not a scientist, I'm not looking at the evidence like they're looking at the evidence, and they've looked at the evidence and they've very clearly come up with this idea, and it must be true because they're scientists. So I feel like the teacher is telling us things and we just believe it and say in our mind we couldn't possibly comprehend it. That's it's so outside of our ability to understand it that don't even don't even try. Just trust us, we've done the research and it is this way. Well, but we God has made us, He's made us to be looking around and observing things. That's what science really is, is observation. And when you uh really observe God's world, you find that there is a designer. It's very practical, it's very simple, it's very in your face, it's it's not hard to understand. And I think that was by God's design.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:06

Which is beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

You know, I yeah, I think uh I think it's astounding how how our culture today, and I I just to speak about about the things we deal with in our culture, how much we trust others. You know, I and and given you know the educational system that we have today, I mean I could list all kinds of things that I do think uh our culture is beginning to see uh a distrust with some of these answers. And people are genuinely seeking. I think this is a great time to answer a question. Is there really a God? Because it's becoming very obvious to the everyday human that we can't trust anyone. Our government fails us, scientists fail us, um, the education system is failing us, and and it's being exposed that the answers given really have no merit. Yeah, we're you know what I love about the Bible is that it's the most proven book on earth. I mean, it is it has been scrutinized for centuries, right? I mean, proof after proof after proof, it's been proven to be exactly what it is, truthful. And I think you can't deny that. I think to deny that would require um, you know, a lot more than most people are willing to even try to attempt. Um so I I I think you know, when you talk about creation demands a creator, I think that there is um so much truth to that that it should shake people up and bring that into that. How else do you answer that question for people? I guess um is there really a God?

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Yeah, I think I think you point to scripture. Um, I think that's the first thing that you have to do because uh somebody who is going to become a believer, scripture will cause them to chew on scripture and struggle with it until the conversion happens. So um and and I think that's our commandment is that we we give God's word because it's alive, right? And so I think that's where I think I think that's where you start. I mean, we we could always go down the path of trying to convince somebody of certain facts and like, okay, fine, I believe that Jesus lived, I believe, you know, these certain areas, but I think you still have to give them the scripture and and see how it works in them, right? That's our job. We we let God do the heavy lifting. So when someone says, Is there a God? I think we're responsible to answer on our own accord, but it's not our job to convince them. That's the job of the Holy Spirit and the job of scripture, especially when you use scripture because it it does not return void, it tells us that, right?

SPEAKER_04 21:50

Well, and if I can bounce off of that, yeah, with with scripture, we either believe because none of us were there at the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

That's a good point.

SPEAKER_04 21:58

We weren't uh no, this is. An observable science, it's it's historical science. So because none of us were actually there, we have to presuppose something. And so we're choosing to either have faith in the Bible that God in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, that that He's telling us what He did, or we believe man's word, which is built on the fact that there is no God. So there is every person has to make a decision in their own mind who they're going to have faith in. And that's the basis of this question. If we choose to trust the Bible, that's where we find out about who God is, that God is eternal, that helps with creation because he's outside of time. If God is eternal, he was always there. It's not everything that we see has a starting point. And so it obviously will have an ending point. But God is outside of that. And so it helps my mind know that okay, this guy God is outside of time and he is eternal. That's part of his attributes, and I can learn more about this God who gave me a book to understand him more.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Yeah. And I think that is that's the the challenge. So do we believe in these things that are difficult to believe in first? And then do we believe in God did them? Or do we believe in God first and then we can believe that all these difficult things happen? And I think it's I think it's the belief in God. And and then everything else, you're you just you you have faith that he's capable. And I I like how you mentioned that. Because he is uh he's not uh he's not uh finite like we are, he's infinite, he's eternal. He created everything that we see here, so we can't say, oh well, you you now fit into what you've created. So it had to have star it had to have started outside of you. Well, no, he's already outside of, he's in a different realm than what he created. And I think that's another thing that um I think some people struggle with when they say, Well, how can God create something out of nothing? Well, because he's God, right? And and it goes back to as if we can compare him to us. Yeah, and so that's the we can't do that. The big topic of you have to have some faith in certain areas, and that's part of uh being saved, is that you have faith and God's just separate from us, he's completely different, way more powerful than we could ever imagine, and he has abilities that we can't even imagine.

SPEAKER_04 24:40

I think we share some of his attributes because we're made in his image, but there are some that are 100% only for him. And it's makes us want to worship him more when we do study his world and we see what he's made. It makes us want to bring glory to God, which is is why we're here.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

A question like this just shakes it should shake people up for the Christian. The question, is there really a God should shake us up to say, if so, are we even doing what we're supposed to do? Are we walking in the way we're supposed to walk? I mean, this question has a lot of uh twists and turns to it because for the believer, for those people who are gonna say, Yeah, of course he's creator, he's God, you know. The the next question would be, well, what is your response to that? Is your everyday reflect that? And then for the reb, the the unbeliever, the the the Bible denier, the God denier, the atheist, um, you know, I they're living their life, and I have to assume this is just the truth that our culture has buried um us in stuff, right? Entertainment, activity, work, just buried us to the point where do you even reflect on origins? Do you even think about whether there is a God or not? Do you even care? And I think that you know, this question when it comes to those we work with, those in our neighborhood, uh, those in our family, you know, I I this is what I feel like I witness that life has just buried people to such a degree that they're not pondering this question. No, I think centuries ago when life was simple, quiet, slow, it it probably was um you were confronted more with that because your life just slowed down. I mean, again, I not to keep bringing up my coffee outside, but when you go and you stop and you and you tune everything out, it's amazing all of a sudden the things that flood into your mind. It's it's kind of like the three o'clock in bed thing, you know, all of a sudden everything's clear. You're like, oh my gosh, I have so much to do. What am I doing? And I I do think that if we could stop, slow down, that maybe this question, is there really a God, would be pondered more. But I do think that the enemy of our soul, which we know Satan is out to steal, kill, and destroy, is so effective uh in our culture today of just burying us. I mean, we go home, TV goes on, it's it's what can I binge? It's what work can I do? I gotta mow the lawn, I gotta do this, I gotta go there. And I I just honestly think um, as great as our answers are, I have to wonder whether anyone's asking this for those who are distant. And I would also challenge believers to say, if your answer is absolutely, of course, God exists, he is creator. The obvious question then is how real is he? Are we walking the walk? Are we um doing what he asks us to do? You know, it should be a change, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:38

I mean, there that's that's where I feel is what you're saying is if he's creator, then he owns this world and he owns us, and if he has a way that he wants things to be done, and it we should know we should know what it is. And do we do we um do we want to be outside of that accountability? Is that why we're trying to get rid of the idea of a God or you know obviously when when you look at God and his even in our world, we I mean this is another point, but about the morality side of things, like you know, not even the physical things, but what we perceive as right and wrong, it it translates to all different people groups.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Well, which actually brings me to the next answer or answer to this is it really God? The moral law requires a moral lawgiver. How can we know what it how would there even be a right and wrong if there wasn't a creator? I mean, when I buy something, I get this ridiculous manual. Right. I I hate manuals. I I always throw them out and I get the PDF versions because I have to like you know zoom in. And what what is a manual? Obviously, it's just this maker saying, Oh, here's what you gotta do. I mean, we don't even we don't even take care of our stuff, by the way. Isn't that hilarious? I if you if you're in manuals, they always have troubleshooting areas, but they also have maintenance. Have you ever read the maintenance? You probably have. You're a maintenance guy. The cars will change. By the way, you have to clean this thing out every year or it's gonna fail. And then when it fails, we're like, what happened here? Yeah, why is it broken? Well, you didn't clean the vent out, so it it just died.

SPEAKER_04 29:14

That goes to another whole thing of everything goes from order to disorder, yeah, yeah. Not from disorder to order. That's a good proof that of intelligent design.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Coming back to this moral law requires a moral lawgiver. I think any any uh rational person wants a boundary, right? A right and a wrong. But in in order for that to be defined, there's gotta be a standard. And God sets that standard. If God isn't, if there isn't a creator, then there's no standard. So then who's making it? Who's creating it?

SPEAKER_04 29:46

And well, I think we've seen that very clearly in our world today. There's all kinds of standards that aren't that's where we're going.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Yeah, it's changing. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 29:57

Good is evil and evil is good.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

And I would make that as an appeal to someone who's questioning God. I would say you want God. Yeah, yes, you want order, you want order, you want the laws that God has established because it safeguards all of us. I mean, look at what we're descending into today, which again, I just go back to Romans 1. It's chaos, nothing is right. They we can't even define genders today. Yeah, um, people are afraid to answer what is a woman. I don't know, I can't answer that. I'm gonna get trapped. Um, as if God hasn't defined that clearly, as if a three-year-old couldn't answer that question 10 years ago. Yeah, but now we're so afraid, and that is what happens when you eliminate uh that the moral God, the creator God who designed it, and said, This is how I want you to live. Um Romans 2, 14 says, The law is written on human hearts. That that is that is our conscience, that is the moral law that's been put there. That's why he can say, without a doubt, we have been made aware. Um, Romans 1 says, Although they knew God. Why? Because it was written on us. This moral God, this this creator God established this moral law. And I think that that is a great answer to people saying, Well, is there really a God? Yeah, and you should be thankful for that.

SPEAKER_04 31:15

Yeah, well, we want justice and justice more than ever today, right? Everyone wants justice, but it I mean, that's a a proof that there is a right and a wrong because if somebody hurts somebody I love, I want justice. I want it to be this isn't right, it needs to be fixed. That's a God-given order that's built in us because it's written on our hearts. We know when it's when we're wrong.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

We know down deep. A lot of our laws are written from the Old Testament, Deuteronomy. Yeah, and it it has order, it has structure, it has um, I don't know if I want to use the word fairness, but a a process to get to the truth. And that's what we all want. When there is a crime committed, we want to know the truth, and there's only one, right? So I think that comes back to um if there is a God, there's only one, there's only one truth. Yeah. And how do how do we get there? How do how do we get people there?

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Do we really want to live in a world of opinions when it comes to justice? Right. I mean, no, no one wants to live in that world, but it does feel like we're sliding into that nowadays in order to push an agenda or and the unfortunately justice is becoming muddled. I think law is becoming so muddled even in this country to the degree that the moral law giver is being denied to such a degree that we're descending into chaos. And I think all of us don't, we don't I don't want to go to court over something and be judged by opinion. Yeah. Um, we want to be judged by what's right and wrong. So yeah, I think you know, if again, if I'm looking face to face with someone who's like, I don't know, uh, is there really a God? I'm gonna say you want, you want God, you want a designer. Yeah. Um, I agree. Yeah. What other uh I guess responses would we have if that question's posed to us?

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Yeah, so I I always go to there's scripture. That's that's my belief, and I think that's for all believers. Um, so you have an unbeliever and he's going, okay, well, since scripture is a fairy tale. I don't believe in scripture. Okay, well, let's let's take scripture out of the equation, and so I'll go to my next uh set of notes.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Which I traditionally would never do.

SPEAKER_04 33:28

I don't think we should ever. I don't know, but we can add to it. Right, right. You can add to it, not to it.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

That's a good correction. So I would I would say, okay, so we'll we'll pretend that the scripture that I shared with you is is not real, but now I have external, we'll call it scripture or historical evidence because that's what I feel the Bible is historical um evidence. So there are documents that you guys can look up. Um that's good. So there's a Roman historian named uh Tacitus, and the book is called The Anals, A-N-N-A-L-S. Um, book 15, chapter 44. It confirms Jesus was executed under Pontius Pilate. So Pontius Pilate was a real person that's in the Bible. So now you have to struggle with that. If the Bible is a fairy tale, then why does it have why does it have these facts in there? So it's during Tybertius' reign, and that his followers believed he rose and continue worshiping him as divine. So and there's many more. I've got five others that also these are these are people that were in power, um, or people that were historians. And back in the day, um, being a historian was much different than it is today. Um, so these are accurate accounts of history. So if I'm giving you scripture and you're saying, well, it's a fairy tale, then now you have to struggle with I give you uh uh things that are outside the Bible that are referencing that the Bible is true. And so that's that's where I would I would go. And and not to go too much on a tangent, but as a believer, we believe scripture is true because when we hear it, we're like, Yeah, I have no problems with that. I believe in white. Comes from hearing, exactly. And and we've got more scripture that we could go to on that. But um, so I think you if if once somebody hears scripture and they hear some other evidence that's even pointing to scripture is true, we wipe our uh the dust off our sandals and we we move on, you know. So we can't make somebody believe, we can only give them the evidence that we have that we feel has has converted us and and let them chew on that. So good though. I I don't want to follow that too. But go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 35:38

Can I follow up just on what you were talking about with history, which I found this absolutely amazing? And I know you're gonna put this link, and we'll probably have an entire podcast on how the word of God is true. But um, with the historian that you just pointed out, um there's a uh video that talks about the different historical manuscripts that we have and the gaps of the how many manuscripts we have and how from from the moment that was done until it was actually written, handwritten. So the one guy you just said, what was his name? You gave an example Tacitus. Okay, Tacitus. Um, and it talks about him in this video. There's like two handwritten manuscripts, and I think there was 750 years from the time he actually said those things till it was actually written down. And we have two manuscripts, so that it goes through like Plato and through all of these people that a lot of people will say this is true historical fact because we have these manuscripts. With when you look at the word of God and you see how many actual manuscripts we have within 50 years of them actually being written, it like there's thousands of manuscripts, thousands. So to believe those historical accounts and not believe the Bible is silly. It yeah, it because of the proof we have actual proof. So we'll have that linked in there too, so you can watch that because it is it's it's undeniable.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

And you do have to do the work. Um, this is where uh study research comes in because when we talk about the Bible, which I do think should be our next one, I already put that down. Yeah, um good topic. Uh the how proven of a book it is. Uh, it was hilarious because I saw some statistics about even our history books that are in schools are less proven than, you know, I mean substantially less proven. And they're written about, you know, historical things that are just 50 years ago and they're inaccurate. Um, so it is outstanding when you think about the historians you're referencing that um, again, apart from scripture, which I'll just say this, you know, and I love the answers in Genesis remind you never set the Bible aside. Never. It is our presupposition, our starting point, and don't make um don't make uh apologies for that. But I don't think we reference historical documents enough because um, and I know John MacArthur's so big on that. I love how fun to unwrap it is because very few pastors do the work to unwrap historical references and it brings so much pencil.

SPEAKER_04 38:17

All of it together. Yeah, so fun.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Yeah, and I'm going down bunny trails, but I just heard in one of the sermons um that I was listening to, um, where you know, modern pastors today will try to take scripture and try to interpret in light of you know our culture. They'll they'll they'll not use biblical culture, biblical um reference in order to try to relate to today's audience. Yeah. And and he was like, you're missing the whole point because when you when you and this is again, John MacArthur will take you back into the understanding of that day and age, why Jesus used this reference, why he pointed out this, and it brings so much depth and understanding. And if you don't do that work, you you misinterpret and you come up with uh many times just different results to what the meaning is. So I'm getting in a tangent, but I love this truth, and I think that it should be a reminder when we're asked, is there really a God? Just check out how much historical truth there is surrounding the Bible itself, which ultimately says there is a God.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

And I want to add one piece to that. Back in those days when people were um communicating historically, they would verbally tell each other. And then they had amazing memories. It's not like today where we are, I think we're used to having a phone and other electronic devices. So I don't think we don't have to remember. Yeah, we don't have to have that capacity. But back then, it was extremely important that the things you were regurgitating were exact, they were truthful because there was a high price to pay if you if you became a slanderer, a liar, or whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Um and so when when you go back to those times, when people were documenting things, this was the truth historically. And you didn't get people that are telling lies. And and so that's what I want to help people understand that if you're if you're if you're struggling, well, that was written a long time ago, and you're trying to place the way we are in society today to back then, that's the inappropriate application. Things were much different back then.

SPEAKER_04 40:27

But would you say people didn't lie? No. Well, I mean, I think there is false stuff from back then, but not at not like we think about it today.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

And and so when you have these um these uh historical documents and they're pointing to other historical documents to support them, I think you can confidently say that that is truth. And and so that's what I'm getting at. Oh, I see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_04 40:50

Well, yeah, and I think the fact that what is it? Um in a court of law, you have to have two or three witnesses, right? Like to show. And I think the this is and what we would say is a witness. Yeah, there was no. And I was reading a book about it. Um give you the name of the book, but um, the idea that there wasn't there's no logical reason for them to lie about that, you know. So because of that, you can't assume that that is a lie. You know, there's there's thought processes that go into putting that into position.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

And you also have to do research on the and a lot of these historians, they weren't, I don't even think some of them were Christians, right? Yeah, they were complete independently. Some of them hated historians Christianity here, right? So uh that's why it survived all the uh generations, because uh I mean, obviously, it's hard to question that. Yep. Um, I love this, and this is kind of surrounding what you brought up. Man doesn't invent God, yeah. He tries to suppress him. People have said, oh man created, you know, Christianity is nothing more than some conceived idea. God is just this idea that man is in this hopeless state and needs someone to cling to. And uh, I know that came out of the Freud era and the the so-called intellectuals of the 1800s, 1900s. And I love the argument that John MacArthur brings up because he's like, man wouldn't invent God.

SPEAKER_04 42:26

Not well, not this God, not our not the true God.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Doesn't invent God, tries to suppress God. That is man's inclination, is is his point. Man has created gods, but our desire is to suppress God. Yeah, we don't want an order over us, we don't want a law over us. Our sinful nature wants to thrive in the decline, in the the the the sinfulness of our human nature, right? So it's an interesting argument that you don't hear often because it just gets swallowed up by other things. But as he was presenting, I'm like, you know, that is so true. It is not our inclination to do that. We will make ourselves God. Yeah, we will put ourselves in power. But when what human, even today, then, would create a God as merciful, as powerful, as independent, as loving as as the God of the universe? We wouldn't do that. The gods man create are much like men, yeah, who crave power and corruption and authority, the Greek gods, the these were these were uh evil beings, right? So yeah, I find that fascinating. I thought that was an interesting thought, and you have to link that one too. Whatever there's a study we were going to study that is um yeah, God, Satan, angels and demons, or something like that. One of his his series, phenomenal series, but it's it's in the uh the part he's talking about God, and uh he brings that truth up. So I thought that. Was important. I don't know that I would use that as my starting point to argue with someone who's saying is there really a God? But I would for someone who's probing and say, you know, have you ever thought about it? Would you create the God of this of the Bible? Yeah. Can man even conceive of such love, mercy, grace, and put that as our authority? And I don't, I think the answer is no. We we wouldn't do that.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

Um, and I think another another good question that we could I would I would say it's a debate versus an argument with somebody that's questioning a God. Um, is there not a God? Ask them, well, is there not a God? And they say, No. Why? What so let's hear your argument um of why you say there's not a God, because I think that would give you an opportunity to kind of see what the where their mindset is uh to be able to help. Um yeah, and what would we hear? Yeah, we we would well, you know, I've got some examples. Uh there's a God, but he doesn't care, right? The the hands-off kind of God. He he's created everything, but he really could care less about humanity and the struggles, um, or the people that go, Well, there's something smart out there, we don't know what it is. I mean, there's a lot of intelligent design, so there's some sort of creator. Um, or God is whatever you want him to be, kind of like what we're doing today. Or we we we take um God and we mold him into something a little bit different, right? So it's convenient for us, yeah. Um, or or science has replaced God, that's like the atheist. So uh there's a lot of uh God replacements out there. Um, but so so I still think for us to really get at where that person is coming from, ask them well if there's no God, why? Why isn't there a God? Give me your proof and what where do you see no creator at all?

SPEAKER_01 45:44

So that's my thought. I I I'll and we should wrap it up with this. Uh this this is my closing thought to this. You guys can chime in. But think about what God tells us to do for those unbelieving people. I mean, I I think of the reference of the shepherd and the sheep, the lost sheep. Yeah, leave the 99, chase the one. You know, God's God's answer to reaching the unbeliever, the denier, is to love them, to go after them, to devote attention to them. And and I think as Christians, that's a tough thing for us to do. I it's you know, you feel attacked when Christianity or your faith is put in question. It's easy for us to respond with you know what you're talking about. Um, but God's answer again, a God that man would not create, his answer is to love them, to go after them, to give truth, give truth to them, you know, and and and not stop, continue, um, all the way to the point where he calls us to um love our enemy. Yeah. Uh this is the God of the Bible. This is the creator who formed and fashioned us and made us who we are. Um, I love that God. That's an amazing God. That's a God for us to know. He's unique. Um, I understand, I take such comfort when I when I contemplate the universe and and all that we are and all that we live in, when I think of that God. I uh I think of the people in today's world that are full of anxiety and fear. And I think if you just know this God, this God made a way, and I know, I understand all the arguments. You know, the first thing you hear from a lot of people is I don't understand a God who would who would send people to hell. Um, those are the types of things you hear. And and I look back at them and say, I see a God who made a way of salvation for you for all mankind, who who has eternity carved out for you, who has made a way. That's the God I see. Um, choose that God today, choose him because he chose you.

SPEAKER_04 47:53

So I just want to bring Hebrews 11:6. I I just find it awesome that it was our memory verse a few months ago, and it's just been echoing in my mind as we've been starting this whole journey that um that if we believe that he exists, that that is what God asked, that we would believe that he exists and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. So if you're in the position where you are at that moment and you're like, I choose to believe, I am going to have faith, I'm gonna believe the truth about our eternal and creator and our our eternal God, our creator God, that that he is, and then know that he's a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. So he wants us to seek him. It gives him joy and pleasure. And when we bring him glory in that, in that in that search for him. If you're if you're struggling in something and you're not sure, you have to lean in to God, not away from him. Lean into him right now and seek him. He will reward you, he will show you more of himself. And it's precious because he loves us that much. He wants us to know him.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

And faith comes from hearing. You know, it's it's easy to make an argument, maybe stir a thought in in someone. But my encouragement to the unbeliever or the seeker is dive into God's word, read it, let the Holy Spirit bring revelation and truth. Because he does what I can't do or you can't do, none of us can do. But when you get into the word of God and you and you read and you hear, he brings understanding and and will open your mind. But uh one more thought: God's unchanging nature gives certainty. And thank God that we serve a God who is unchanging because man, our culture is just shifting on us. We feel like our ground is always shaking beneath us, always splitting. But our faith, our peace as believers comes from knowing that God is unchanging and that we can put our trust and hope in Him. His promises are true and they remain true forever. So that's my closing thought. Um, obviously, there is no way that we can feel like we've answered a question like this. Is there really a God in every twist and turn? But I think we've done pretty good just answering some thoughts and sharing some scripture and um hopefully it makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

Yeah, I think our short answer is we we are accountable to give our answer for that question. Yeah, it's good, but it's not our uh job to convince them. It's it's scripture and the Holy Spirit to amen to that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:34

I hope those are seek him helpful.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

Yeah, very good. Seek him. All right. Well, next week we might be diving into is the Bible true? Yeah, um big topic. Um so yeah, tune in and we'll um see what what happens with that. But I look forward to the conversation.