Is There Really a God? | Why Creation Demands a Creator

Is There Really a God?

It's one of the oldest and most important questions humanity has ever asked.

Look around for a moment.

The stars above you. The oceans below you. The complexity of DNA. The human brain. Love. Consciousness. Mathematics. The precise order of the universe itself.

Did all of this really come from absolutely nothing?

In this episode of The Echoing Truth Podcast, Todd, Amy, and Lincoln examine the evidence for God's existence from a biblical worldview and explore why creation itself points to a Creator.

In This Episode:

* Why creation demands a Creator

* The design and order of the universe

* Why something cannot come from nothing

* How conscience points to a moral Lawgiver

* Why people reject God despite the evidence

* The role of Jesus Christ as God's ultimate revelation

* How truth, morality, and meaning all point beyond ourselves

Whether you're a skeptic, seeker, atheist, agnostic, or lifelong believer, this conversation challenges us to examine one of life's most important questions:

Is there really a God?

Key Scriptures

📖 Psalm 19:1

📖 Genesis 1:1

📖 Romans 1:20

📖 Romans 1:21

📖 Romans 2:15

📖 John 14:9

Memorable Quote

"Creation exists. And creation demands an explanation."

Questions We Discuss

•  Can something come from nothing? 
•  Does design require a designer? 
•  Where does morality come from? 
•  Why does humanity long for meaning? 
•  Why do people reject God? 
•  What makes Jesus unique? 

About The Echoing Truth Podcast

The Echoing Truth Podcast exists to help believers think biblically, engage culture faithfully, and explore life's biggest questions through the lens of Scripture.

About the Podcast

Echoing Truth is a Christian theology podcast devoted to rediscovering the unchanging truth of God’s Word and applying it to our modern world.

Hosted by Todd Demoff alongside his wife Amy and a close friend seeking to understand faith within today’s cultural landscape, the show combines biblical teaching, theological reflection, and thoughtful conversation.

Truth doesn’t need to be reinvented.
 It needs to be echoed.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

In an age of uncertainty and spiritual noise, there is still a firm foundation. God's word is steady, his truth is sufficient. This is echoing truth. Anchored in scripture, engaged with culture, helping you stand firm.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

All right, well, welcome guys to another episode of Echoing Truth. And I know today we had an amazing podcast last episode where we talked about is there really a God? And I felt like as we reviewed it, we looked over it, and I think this is a really important topic. There's a lot of people who you would be surprised have questions when it comes to is there really a God? In fact, I had a conversation with someone in my family who I said, hey, did you listen to the episode? And they're like, I already know that God exists. I said, Well, there's others around you who don't. So it still might be relevant. Um, and uh, so I found that funny because I think that's how our minds think. But as we looked over last episode, I think all of us came to this conclusion that there were so many more things that we wanted to share that I don't think we got to. So our goal today, as we go through this episode, is to pull out, I think we've extracted almost 15 or more great points, I think, that we wanted to share. And we uh each took a couple of them and uh trying to prepare our thoughts. And we're gonna kind of, I want to say loosely, speed through this conversation because there's a lot of points. Yeah, but really try to emphasize, I think some of the things that we missed that are really important. I think some of the things that relate to science or history that that maybe we just we touched on, but there's so much more that we can point to when it comes to is there really a God? And I don't want to move on from this topic. I know we talked about going into um talking about the Bible and and the sufficiency of scripture and things like that, but I didn't, I don't think either any of us wanted to just move over this topic without making sure that we we did a thorough job. Um, so let's just do that today. I'm I'm just gonna we'll just dive into it. Um and maybe each one of us can just take some of these thoughts, launch out in your thoughts. We're gonna have a timer um that are in our minds, I guess, um, per per point we want to make because we want to move um efficiently through some of this and make sure that we're answering this question from a lot of different angles. And I have to say this for anyone who might be watching or listening to our podcast. If you have any questions, you can contact us anytime. I would love that. Yeah. Through our feedback. Yeah, feedback that might say, hey, uh, I love what you said here. Could you go a little deeper on this topic? Or I have a really, really tough question. I would love you guys to focus on. So or they have a disagreement. Or they have a disagreement. Great point. I would love that. Um and welcome it. Uh, I think it would be fun to just kind of dive through some of those um those topics. So let's uh let's just jump into the first one. I think, Amy, what are your thoughts on it?

SPEAKER_06 3:07

I think our very first one was something cannot come from nothing. So that's a good point. It's a great way to start off the conversation. Um I when I think about that, I I immediately go to there has to be a source. There has to be something. Because the the actual definition of nothing, although is debatable, I guess. I didn't even realize that. Honestly, there's actually more than one definition. So scientists have come up with a new definition for the word nothing that that actually is something. So I I don't know how they're getting this definition because now I'm I don't know how they're serious. Yeah, I I could go back and find I probably should, but my brain's been through so many things. The in essence, the thought process is that nothing is not actually nothing, it's just something that has always been, and so because it's always been, it can produce something. So interesting, it's it's not logical or or rational in my mind. And I'm a very simple person in my way that I think, and so I'm gonna just put that out there. But at the same time, I think most people rationally looking at things, which we've talked about it last week a little bit. We talked about how you know when we see something awesome, we were like, who did that? Yeah, and I I love that that argument because we we all do that in in our daily life. Um, but uh coming from a biblical mindset and a biblical worldview, we're gonna say that nothing does, nothing comes from nothing. Like you your nothing cannot be the source of everything. So, in that way of thinking, we have to then acknowledge that there is something outside of the created universe that is the actual source, and he must be bigger than everything else that we study and see. So, um, a couple of the points I wanted to acknowledge were um that in scripture there's quite a few points that we can look at. Um, but Genesis 1.1, I love because it is the very first verse in the Bible, and it states in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now there was a scientist or a theological, he was not theological, he was a scientist slash like philosopher, I guess. Um, who his name was um Herbert Spencer, and he was given this like he was given um uh uh what's the word?

SPEAKER_01 5:42

He was said that he was like the one who came up with the I love how she gets she always has such deep stories and characters and personalities, and but I'm curious.

SPEAKER_06 5:51

Okay, he was credited with identifying the essential categories of reality. Okay, so uh which are time, force, action, space, and matter. Uh yet the Bible has already stated all five of these in the very first verse of the Bible. So uh in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. In the beginning, time, time, yep, God, which is force, yep, created, which is action, the heavens, which is space, and the earth, which is matter. So they gave, you know, the scientific community uh credited him with this, but when you look at it, it it all points to exactly what we're saying. There was a creator God that is not nothing, he is the something that created. Yes, he was he's eternal and he has created.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

I think the most important point that you're making too, because I know last week we talked about creation demands a creator. Um, and I think we highlighted some of this, but this idea that um our world today continues to try to present um an argument to this origin. Something had something had to be, right? So this idea that they're now taking this idea of nothing and saying, well, there was always something, but we're not gonna say it was God, right? Um or intelligence or anything. I don't know what they're trying to say nothing was, but they want, they demand that there has to be nothing. Um, which really is, you know, as we were talking, because we were talking about this the other day, is really just another form of religion, yeah, to be real honest, right? I mean, it's saying believe in this something that we're calling it, right? You gotta have faith in it. I mean, it takes extreme faith to believe that there's just everything came from nothing. Yeah. And I feel like to be honest with these in, you know, these um intellectuals who are trying to basically oust God from the origin of everything, um, that you just have to be honest that what they're really selling is just another religion. Yeah. It requires enormous amounts of faith. And um, we were even talking fantasy and imagination. Um, and I feel like they revel around that idea that um that is going to satisfy this need to know where everything came from.

SPEAKER_06 8:04

Right. And, you know, I think everything that we're gonna talk about today, this is the basis of it because it is the biblical worldview and that that God is outside of. So we're we're looking at it as this is our ground, this is our foundation. And you have one, you have two foundations. You either have man's word, which is who are you trusting? So a combination of scientists over time who have come up with some kind of theory that goes against most every single law that we observe, rationally observe, which is what true science is, or we take and it's very simplistic when they go back to it that it you know there was just this matter, or it was just there, versus us. So we're saying there was God, and you're choosing which way. But everything that we're about to talk about today, every single one of these points is pointing to creator, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Foundation.

SPEAKER_06 8:57

Foundation. We have to have a foundation.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

You know how satisfying it is to be able to say this is who was and this is how it all happened. There is something so refreshing and and God was, yeah, he is the beginning, he is eternal. It's so um it fills everything in versus this crazy idea of faith in a bang, right, uh a star.

SPEAKER_06 9:24

Well, it gives purpose a cell, right? That purpose that we need to live. I mean, I think everybody wants to know that they're not just a blob of cells, that there's actually a purpose in them being here.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Yeah, well, you're not you're getting into other ones.

SPEAKER_06 9:37

Yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

You're getting into other ones, but yes, great point. It demands a criteria. Okay, yeah, we're gonna move. What's the next one?

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Let's what else we got? So the one that I was uh really curious and interested in is university universe is finely tuned for life. We've talked about that. We touched on it in our uh previous episode. Um, so this is outside of just saying, well, I'm gonna believe in in the Bible. Well, if you're not a Bible believer, there are some things that you really have to wrestle with in science that other um scientists have stutter studied and have discovered. I'm trying to merge those two words together. And so, like the laws of physics are precisely balanced for life to exist. Precisely. Yeah, it doesn't say relatively or kind of close or a crapshoot. Um, it's they are precisely balanced for life, and some of these um really um they're compound. So you have gravitational pull, you have um the amount of oxygen and and um other gases in the environment that we live in, we have uh how close the moon is, how close we orbit to the sun, how close we are to other planets. I mean, it is immense the amount of precise uh items. So even uh secular scientists have to admit that those odds, they're staggering for for you to say that all this just randomly occurred to make it precise. Yeah, that doesn't happen, right? I mean, I think as kids, we've we've thrown you know paint on on a wall or you know, taken a crayon and randomly drew something on the wall, and it probably wasn't beautiful, it probably wasn't precise, you know. So that's I I really going to a uh more logical mindset, I also have to agree with that. Yeah, so I'm not I so I'm a believer, but if I put that aside, it it really you have to wrestle with these facts. So uh let me give you some scripture where God um declares these items. So the heavens declare the glory of God. So we've all looked up at the stars and or have been places and we're like, wow, that's beautiful, and we've talked about that. Um, and then the sky above proclaims his handiwork. So not only the heavens declare the glory, but the sky above proclaims somebody's work, right?

SPEAKER_06 11:53

Would you say that even a tiny change and there wouldn't even be stars? Yeah, exactly. If you didn't have exactly the amount of gravity that's needed, or you know, the any tiny little thing, stars wouldn't even form or well, the light wouldn't have reached us, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:07

So they're they're saying that it takes so long for the light from that star to get here. Well, God created everything to be um as is when he created everything, so we don't have to wait for these things to to glorify him, right? So he already made the light from the stars reach us so that we can see them. We didn't have to wait, you know. So it's all those things. Uh and then Romans 1:20, for his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly per perceived ever since the creation of the world. So once again, he's claiming there's creation of what we see in the things that have been made so that they are without excuse. So this is kind of going towards judgment, too. We don't have an excuse, we see creation all around us, and yet we still ignore it. Yeah, but when we see like a new toy or a new car, we were talking about that last time, we're like, oh, who made that? Why don't we do that now? I mean, maybe we take it for granted, and I think it's also part of our uh sin nature. So a couple other couple other things I wanted to mention. So some of the uh precise um items that have to be in place for us to exist, the gravitational constant, fine structure constant, the baryon to photon ratio. I mean, this is getting into very scientific, deep uh type theology, dark matter density, amplitude of primordal fluctuations. All of these you guys can look up, they're exact and they're complex. It's not something has to be blue, something has to be green. There is even deeper molecular structures that have to be in place and the way that these things move and react to each other. It just gets so deep, guys, that we we can't sit here and say that's random. No, that was uh that was just by accident. Yeah, I mean, it blows my mind, and there's so many of these things our planet being massive enough to hold an atmosphere. We talked about that, be small enough to avoid degeneracy, because if it's too tiny, then it it falls apart and some of the matter that it's trying to hold together, having the right chemical composition. We talked about the gases and everything else, orbit a star with a long stable lifetime. So it goes on. I've got a ton of them, but all these things show us that uh this was uh an intention, yeah. There's one on our planet that supports life, and uh God has made claim to that. And of course, he doesn't go into the scientifics because he would have confused the people I think writing it, maybe even some of the people today, if he went into the scientifics of it, but he still claims it. He says, I've created everything that you see. There's a start and there's gonna be an end. And it is absolutely amazing. So thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 14:41

Well, you know, is there really a God? And what you're saying is the the world, the universe is so finely tuned that it points to God as creator, it has to, it needs a creator. I mean, I hear what you're saying, and this could be an entire uh several hours of scientific data to bring up all the points you're making, but how detailed and fine-tuned everything has to be, and it just makes me wonder how every scientist that studies this doesn't naturally just just see that it requires a God. Yeah, get saved, right? Get saved because it's too perfect. I mean, the mad to imagine or have faith, as we talked about, in this evolutionary process from nothing to get to a point where it's so finely tuned that that even now we can barely understand it, even in our research, right? I mean, I hear that time and time again when I'm reading scientific stuff. They're still trying to understand where the complexity came from and even how they could they could perceive it in our human minds, but it could not have come from nothing.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

And so the the counter to that argument, so let's say you don't believe in God. So what what theories make sense? Right? So if you say, Well, I I don't want to believe in a creator, I don't I refuse to believe in somebody who wrote the Bible and that he created everything. Well, you really have to line that up against your alternatives. What are your alternatives? And and you have to think logically, don't don't be angry about it, just think logically. How could you have to, and like you said, it's another religion, you have to put a lot of faith into all of those other counter arguments that say we came from this, this, or this.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

So yeah, go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say, based on that, I think and a lot of this that we want to share today, you have to use your mind deeply. And I think that might be where the struggle is today, that um our generation believes very quickly in things that are told to them. And rather than engaging their mind and coming to rational thought on a topic, you have to ask, where did this all come from? And then analyze the the answer from nothing. I mean, a rational mind shouldn't be able to process an answer like it came from nothing. Right. It it should immediately reject it based on the things that we know and we can see today. I guess that's what I hear when I when you're sharing that. It's too finely tuned, right? Just like if you're looking at your engine in your car, you're not like, well, I don't know how this came about.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

Yeah, someone shook this box of parts for a few million of years, millions of years.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

You're probably marveling you're marveling at the engineers behind it. Like this was brilliant. Wow, that was brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

And I think some made better than others, right? So some cars made better, some engines engineered better than others. Well, this engineering that we're seeing is already perfect. It's yeah, it holds itself together, it stands up. And sure, there are degradations in it, but those those are degradations are because of the the stress that we put on the environment and other things. I mean, that's kind of going deeper into stuff, but um, yeah, I mean, so that just goes to the point. We we have to conclude that this is creation, this is so uh cool and works so well that there it's gotta be created, and then you have to ask yourself, from where? And and if that creator created it, he has he's I'm sure he has announced it, right? Everyone that does a painting, signs God, that's his signature in the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Clearly seen throughout all time. Yeah, it was laid out for us in the scripture that we just read in the beginning. God, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 18:24

Well, and I would say we use our minds to try to understand something, and we're made in the I mean, we believe we are made in the image of God, He's our creator, and so He's given us a mind to be able to think, to be able to understand these things, but that wouldn't make any sense if we were if we were starting from nothing.

SPEAKER_04 18:43

Right.

SPEAKER_06 18:43

We wouldn't even have what are we the the the complex complexity of it all doesn't line up with our brains even be able to formulate that kind of a thing. Yeah like why would we even ask the question?

SPEAKER_02 18:58

Yeah, and that would be a topic we can get into, maybe why people resist that. And there's so many things we can reference biblically, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

I know we talked about the other day and we were talking about it takes faith. I would love that to just be a topic one time we talk about the the faith it takes to put God or take God out of the picture of of creation and and the current scientific thought today, its origins, and why it requires so much faith. But let me just continue this because I kind of feel like what I want to share just follows up where you guys are at. Yeah. Um, and again, I always want to start, or we should start with is there really a God? Yes. D DNA confirms this. DNA is information. And I love this. It DNA is not just chemistry, which I think we all just want to see it. We've seen, you know, uh a CSI show where like DNA will find out who the killer is. Yeah, but it's more than just chemistry, it's it's information. And you we have to, again, this is where we have to apply our minds. Where did where I know I'm trying to get that right? I keep pushing my hair up. Um, but it's more than chemistry, it's it's information. And and this information, and just think about this. In every other area of life, information always comes from intelligence. Yeah, information doesn't accidentally occur or come about. So, why would the greatest information system in the known universe suddenly be the lone exception, right, to this whole thing? And you've never seen a book write itself. I think all of us can agree with that. Yeah, um, software doesn't code itself. Yeah, good point. Um, and or language doesn't invent itself. And no one would really argue that point, but yet we do. Yet people are asking to believe the most complex information system in existence happened by accident. Right. And I think that that should be a kind of a wake up for all of us. Why is that even being sold today?

SPEAKER_02 20:54

And the structure is the same for people, but because there's a different coding in the DNA that makes you taller, me shorter, you have blue eyes, and yeah, it's just and it's all in that same spot within the DNA. So we we each as humans each have two eyeballs and a nose. Um, and and that's what's amazing about that DNA structure. It doesn't say, well, Todd might have four eyes, right? And Amy might have six. So it's it and it all has a structure, but I'm just gonna change the color of the eyes, maybe the size, the shape of the eyes. That that right there is fine-tuning the creator.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

It's information that had to come from intelligence. And I think we need to we need to grapple with that. If if there are those who are out there struggling with is there really a God and are and I love science or always deflect a science, then you gotta grapple with this DNA issue. It's it's more than chemistry, it's information and it demands that there was a creator or an intelligence behind its design. And I I love this because um DNA, uh, you know, this substance, it functions like a software or code or a manual. And I love this. Listen to this. DNA contains digital encoded information, error correcting systems. I mean, this is how we function every day, storage systems, replication systems, translation systems, all built within our DNA code. I mean, there is no way that happened accidentally. Even secular scientists describe DNA using information language like code or letters or instructions, and the idea that it's just some um goo or you know, just some kind of just you know thing. You're missing the whole dynamics here. It's information that came from intelligence. Um, now why is this significant? This is why I want to share this. Information always comes from the mind. If you look at books, it always has an author, software has a programmer, blueprints have engineers. We have never scientifically observed meaningful coded information arising from non-intelligence. Yeah. That's fact. It's never been observed. It can never be found because it always requires intelligence that it's coming from. And that's really the key to my argument when it comes to this. Does it prove God? Absolutely, it does. And DNA is more complex than human software. Um, inside one human cell, listen to this, contains billions of information units, billions in one cell. Extraordinarily compressed data, right? I mean, when we were doing computers the size of, you know, buildings, uh, God did this at the beginning of time. Yep. Um microscopic. Microscopic replication, instructions, self-correcting mechanisms. I mean, scientists compare this DNA to a programming language. Yeah. And it demands an intelligent creator. Um, now, how does this relate to scripture? Because I know we always want to bring it back to scripture. Psalm 139, 14, I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Um, David wrote this thousands and thousands of years ago, before microscopes and genetics ever came onto the scene. And yet, scripture is telling you that there was an intelligent design. Uh, there was a purpose, there was a craftsmanship to who we are. Uh, there was intricate information poured inside of us. And I want someone who's listening or thinking about this, maybe for the very first time to go, do you have purpose? Absolutely. Oh, yeah. You were formed with such intelligence and care and precision that you that should wake up our spirits and our and our minds and our uh our the hope that we have for the future to know that that was all put within us. Um, Psalm 139, 13, for you formed my inward parts, you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I mean, um just imagine that the beauty. Rooster. I I'm just gotta get this right. All right. Um, but I just find that super amazing when you think about this. Hebrews uh three, four, for every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Yeah. And we can prove that all throughout history. Yes. I mean, look at today, we have complexity in our society. We have buildings, electronics, Wi-Fi, computers, all this stuff. Back in the day, we didn't have those things. Well, today would you say, well, those came from nothing? Right. There we were the creators, so we are in the image of God. We are creators. God built us in his image. So we love to build, we love to create, we love to be creative by painting stuff and you know, just overall making this world uh um um different because we're building out things, infrastructures.

SPEAKER_06 25:37

Yeah, isn't it isn't it a beautiful thing when you start with that? How much more science when you when you start to like when I think about studying God's planet or studying his creation, it makes it so much more exciting. Yeah, because we already know where the beginning is. And so as we study, we start to understand who God is more and more and more. And the creator of this DNA, even this is just crazy exciting. Like to know, be able to even know that God that he gave us that ability. It's so cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

And I think it's important to clarify that science, um, you know, we should avoid saying science proves God. I think uh what we have to recognize is that science can show astonishing complexity, fine-tuning information systems, and it's evidently that is strongly consistent with everything the Bible says. And that's where the connecting point is.

SPEAKER_06 26:32

Yeah, when you start with that, though, is what I was saying. If you start in that right place, yeah, it makes science so much more exciting and it makes less stressful as well. It's it's you're not trying to find something out of nothing, you're trying to understand it.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Yeah, it eliminates the blind randomness. Um, I I think for me, science was always an exciting topic because I was always God-centered. It was always my worldview. Yeah, and as I learn more and more, I'm like, oh, of course. Um, I'm not struggling with that. Um, this doesn't make sense. Or please tell me how everything came from nothing. And trying to struggle and grapple with these um almost I'll have to say it, kind of like mindless ideas. So um that's that's just the best way we can be intellectually honest today. And I think that's important. All right. Well, I think we covered that. What else? What else do we have to talk about?

SPEAKER_02 27:26

So um we have moral law, right? So, where did this morality come from, right? We say moral law requires a moral lawgiver. So if evil is truly evil, there must be an objective standard of good, right? Why do we have either one? It would just be all evil or all good, but we we have so Romans 2.15 says they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them. So we are aware of good and bad, and that that's what that's getting to. It's written on our hearts. Well, where did that come from? Why why would I I understand we have murderers in this world, but murderers in most people agree that are wrong, except in the heart of the murderer, right? So that's the exception. We all can agree if we're in a stable mindset, murder is wrong, stealing is wrong. It doesn't make me feel good about those thoughts or those ideas. So so who gave us that law? So these are more things we have to wrestle with. So where did this come from? So Ecclesiastes 12 14 says, For God will bring every deed into judgment with every secret thing, whether good or evil. So God here is acknowledging, yeah, that there's there's good, there's evil, there is a moral law, and I'm the giver of that moral law. And not only that, but I'm gonna be the judge of it. Uh well, we have judges today. So if I, you know, get into a car accident and I've been drinking and driving and I hurt somebody, I'm gonna go in front of a judge, and he has his set of moral laws. Well, where'd he get those from? Right. So it it so all of this has to come from something, just like we're talking about creation. Where did all this come from? And why is it why do we have what the structure that we have here today? So and we can go even even further into that. So, and I know this is such a um uh could be a controversial topic. So, our constitution was built off of Deuteronomy. Yeah, Deuteronomy is the old testament. So, I just want to give a few examples here for people that are like, nah. Yeah, let's let's let's challenge that. So that's fair. Here's some key Deuteronomy verses and the founders. And our founders, I think all of them but one were Christians, but the one still believed in the Christian faith. But what did I don't think he was like a church churchgoer? I don't have the exact name off the top of my head, but anyway, so that they're basing all of uh what they wrote on Deuteronomy. So Deuteronomy 116 through 17, impartial justice. So here's the theme. So judges must be fair, unbiased, and treat all people equally. So this is biblical, and this is why we have um the great justice system that we have today. Now, obviously, if you have a bad judge, that that messes up this uh this theory. But if we were to follow it, which is what we're talking about, we're echoing truth. If we were to follow this truth, so um the um excerpt from the Bible says it says, judge righteously, you shall not be partial in judgment. So we're supposed to do the right things. So if somebody kills somebody, somebody steals, there has to be a righteous response to that bad action. And God's doing these things, not because he's mean, yeah. He wants a society to flow and work well, he wants us to be able to uh be loving towards one another, but obviously with sin we can't. So that's why he put uh law into place and in these judgments. So the influence that this particular example had on the Constitution, so it's the basis for equal protection under the law. So everyone can agree that we have that in the constitution. It inspired the founders' rejection of aristocrats, uh, arist aristocrats and class-based justice, right? We're not supposed to, it's kind of getting there today, like the wealthy seem to get off.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

But but we're also getting further and further away from God. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

So this is why this is great to have as a foundation. We can we can see where we should be and how we're moving away from it and what it's doing to us. And it also reinforced the idea that justice must be blind. You can't say, well, look at this guy, he looks like trouble or the color of his skin. I think that's what God was getting at. It doesn't matter what you look like. Yeah, if you did something wrong, you got to own up to it. And if you're innocent as well, just because you're um a tall, skinny white male or whatever that that prejudice is, he's probably not guilty. Yeah. So God is removing prejudice, which people should praise and be happy about. So I mean, I've got more um throughout Deuteronomy, but Deuteronomy is like it's a tough read because it's it's it's very legalese, but it's uh it's great for those of us um who do read through our Bible and for those of you who are curious, just to go through there and look at how strong it is on upholding law and being fair and responding to stuff that we feel is wrong today. Like it even talks about if if you um murder somebody and they had a baby in the womb, it talks about stuff like that. It's and we have those kinds of laws in place today. Yeah, it's just amazing. I mean, we can reference the Bible about quite a few things, but Deuteronomy is is the influence on our constitution. That's why, in my opinion, we are one of the greatest nations in the world because of our justice system when it's applied properly. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Yeah, I uh well, and whenever you talk about morality, uh I mean you have to ask yourself, yeah, who who arranged this? Yeah, where did this come from? I mean, I I'll be right back.

SPEAKER_06 32:52

You guys keep going.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

I think I think honestly, um, it would be easy for us to um look at the origins of our own country, if you know, you're setting things aside and say, you know, how did our, you know, I'm almost I'm almost crossing over because I have a point later that I wanted to share that was a lot a lot about this as well. But morality, you know, how did it get to this point? And why are we one of the greatest nations in the world? I know that that's argumentative for some people, but undeniable if you look at it objectively. Um we definitely stand out. We do. And I think you know, our justice system um has been something for a very long time that has been very unique and and and defined us as a nation. And it's unfortunate that as we see morality decline, that it's going to then leak into all these things as well, um, even in our law system. So that's a great point. But I think what you're ultimately saying again is you need a moral lawgiver that has instituted these things and it has flowed through society. Yeah. And it's a visual for us to say that there is a God, again, an intelligence who put all this in motion.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

Yep. It has to give a structure, um, once again, so that we can be um easy to work with and deal with. I mean, you can look at families like your parents probably focused on certain things within your family, and that made you different from the next door neighbors. And so that was a lawgiver coming down and saying, okay, here are the laws, kids, here are the rules. And you know, there are some kids that uh clean their room better and maybe um after the bathroom they're they're cleaner and wash their hands. And it's because they had a uh a law-abiding person of that house that said these are the rules.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

And I'll go a step further and be not controversial because it shouldn't be, but you look at the family. Um, God instituted a uh a mother and a father. Yeah. And when those two institutions within the home are functioning correctly, and that's a loving relationship, that all by itself, instituted by God, ordered by God, changes the entire dynamics of a home, right? I mean, statistics, if I was prepared for it, would overwhelmingly say that that order will radically shape the way your kids, your family turn out. And I think that that is amazing truth when you think about that alone. But to your point, I think about my family, you know, the way that my mom and dad laid out the rules, the the fact that we were given um definition to our daily lives, that we were given chores, that we were given a God-centered um focus in our minds completely changed us, our family from everyone else on a street. Yep. Um, and it was obvious, it was very apparent. Why are we different than the than some of these other families on the street? Um, and some of them were trouble.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

And so that that goes down to the micro level. Like we talk about micro and macroeconomics, and we'll call this micro uh laws and macro laws. Yeah, it slows down. So we see now at a macro level, we're we're having bad judges, so bad parents, um, bad laws that are being written, or not upholding those laws. And so if you go back to back to a micro level and you have parents that aren't uh being parents to their children, well, the children in most cases end up being wild, right? Like wild animals. And yes, and so it's really important to be a good parent and to have laws and structure just like a society should have laws and structure.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

I mean, you're introducing some big thought here because I mean, we're also living in a time right now where uh if you're on Instagram or TikTok, you're seeing these videos of of um uh men walking down the street, punching uh just flat out punching a woman and lights out type of situation or stabbing nowadays, is actually becoming a reality. And why is that? Because we flooded our country with individuals who have no God view. Yeah. Um they are every bit almost animalistic, tribalistic in the way that they think. And they're bringing that culture into our country. And and you're seeing it. I think for the very first time, we're seeing this stark difference of what happens when you have a God worldview for the most part, or you know, orchestrating our systems, and then you see that infusion of that non-God. I I am whatever I want to be, I do whatever I want to do, um, mentality and how it affects us.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

So, yeah, that's really interesting. So that was great that you said that, Todd. So that is the argument. So you came from a country that did not have a Christian or Christ-based set of morals and laws, and now you're coming into a country that does it doesn't fit well. It doesn't work. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

You know, and I know this is a very hot topic today, but that's where you know people are saying Western culture just is not, and when I guess when you say Western culture, which again I'm gonna talk about in a few minutes, but um, it's not cohesive with other cultures that are radically different, that God is uh not present, yeah, or or it's a whole different religious entity altogether. So good point, very interesting. Um, welcome back. Yeah, um I guess emergencies happen, but yeah, um okay, well, I'll jump into my next thought because that was a deep one. Yeah um is there really a God? Yeah, human consciousness is not material, and this is a I just love this thought here. Um here's my core thought with this thoughts, reasoning, creativity, morality, as you just mentioned, self-awareness, point beyond simple chemistry and physical processes. And you have to grapple with that. I mean, our whole goal here is to continue to just showcase the reality of God, and you have to grapple with this human consciousness. It's it's almost kind of hard to get a bead on what is that, you know, what is our consciousness? Um, Genesis 127 says God created man in his own image. I mean, there's he's speaking of something far, far bigger than just our physical bodies, right? Um, that there's something here. And I love this. A computer can process information, but it doesn't wonder why it exists. Humans do.

SPEAKER_04 39:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

I just love that. That's a great quote. Science can study the brain, but it still cannot fully explain the mind, which kind of brings me back to something we talked about the other day. It can't explain the mind, the consciousness, or the soul, no matter how much we study it. Um, and I believe that points to God Himself, our creator, and that He we are in fact created in His image and the complexity of who and what we are are amazing. I know these are kind of bouncing off each other a little bit. I kind of feel like we're hinting to it, but I think we're kind of circling a lot of the same scientific realities that we don't talk about enough. Yeah, our consciousness, the thing that that that bears, you know, you know, when you do something wrong, you you lie or whatever it is, you feel it. Where did that come from? Yeah, it didn't come from material nothing or nothing that somehow you know morphed into some something, and then suddenly we have a consciousness. Right. I can barely say that word today. I don't know why. Um big one. But chemicals do not explain it. Um, matter alone cannot fully account for self-awareness, morality, abstract reasoning. I mean, where do we get that? Yeah, if if not God. And we had to create that. Like we have AI, and we had to write that into AI. And it's such a bad right comparison, but you're right. We have to try to make it mimic it do this.

SPEAKER_06 40:42

Actually, when I was talking to Chat GPT, it says it is not conscience and cannot cannot have an opinion on things like this. Yeah. Which I thought was really funny.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

As any man-made thing is not going to have that um awareness. Um, humans don't merely react like machines, right? We don't do the same way. We reflect, we create, we love. I mean, which is unexplainable, right? To a machine. Uh, we worship, we feel pain. Someone can squeeze our arm. We feel pain.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

Like, oh, that's yeah, emotion.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Yeah. Um, we question eternity. I have has a computer ever said, will I be around forever? Yeah. Are you gonna delete me? Are you gonna delete well, maybe? Um, but we do, yeah. And I think that's where this question is so relevant to those who are out there who might be going, I would love to know where everything came from. I love to know where I'm going. I love to know what the purpose of all this is. But the human brain, it is a journey. The human brain processes information, but consciousness experiences it, and it's so unexplainable.

SPEAKER_06 41:51

Uh, it's so hard to another level of awesome like that cannot be fathomed without intelligence.

SPEAKER_02 42:01

Yeah, and why do we have it? You know, dolphins, dogs, they they have their own certain attributes, but we have the most unique attributes where we dream about things, we can imagine, we can uh create certain things out of out of uh like not thin air, but like we can create an alien. There's no aliens, but we can create stuff like that. Where does that come from? How do we have the ability to create?

SPEAKER_01 42:27

Yeah, how do we feel right and wrong? Yeah. That consciousness of what you were just talking about with morality. How do we feel that? Yeah how do you know that even as a you see it, even when you're in a baby, you can see where they know boundaries, yeah. Um, where they are, it's it's you can visibly see that they recognize that's wrong. Where do they get that? Um, and and so especially when we we reinforce it as parents. Absolutely. Yeah, uh, and why are we doing that? Because we're we're teaching or a God orientation. Yeah, um, but science can't explain it, and I think that that's um amazing. It can't explain awareness, it can't explain identity, which is what everyone's searching for today. Um and it's because this this teaching, this atheistic worldview, we came from nothing, erases all the beauty that God put in us, and it leaves people empty and searching without answers. Yeah. When God is the answer. Um, if humans are only biological accidents, why do we possess meaning, morality, purpose, eternal longing? Where did that come from? But scripture explains it clearly, time and time again. Yeah, um, humanity is uniquely created in the image of God, yeah, and that explains everything. And you know, to your point, if that's our starting point, uh it fills in all these gaps. And then as we learn scientific truth, you're like, ah, okay, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_06 43:57

You know, I I watched a video which actually I shared with You the other day, um, where the their scientists had taken a uh a piece of the brain as small as half the size of a uh a grain of rice, and the amount of I'm just gonna go I I we have to share that link. We'll have to we'll connect it because you can't I can't I can't even yes. So when when you take the amount of intelligence that would have had to create something like this, like our brain, I mean, it it has to be, I'm not gonna expect you couldn't expect um Daisy, my little granddaughter, to create something um like she can't even, you know, she's she's six months old, she's not gonna be making a um car battery, let's say, right? She's she's not even close to that point. So we know that looking at the the brain, after just watching that little tiny video that blew my mind, that it whoever created the brain has to be way more intelligent than the person looking at it going, what? Yeah, well, so I mean, come on, let's just smart enough to study the brain. It's just logical. We can't even figure it out. And so that makes us have to point to something much bigger and outside of ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

And I think it it just it's But you gotta watch that video because it even pointed out that there's things that they were discovering. We're talking in that half half of a grain of rice that they don't even can't even explain, never saw before. Um, and they don't even know what it does. Yeah, so we re we'll reverse engineer it eventually, like we always do. Uh into a computer, yeah. Um, but anyway, I think that's really profound. What else? What else do we have?

SPEAKER_02 45:47

Um, so another topic that uh uh points to creator, God, um, beauty has no evolutionary necessity. So we we talked about like uh emotions in creating like art, um in transcending certain points of view, um, and then eternal awareness. Um Ecclesiastes 3 11 says he has made everything beautiful in its time, also which goes back to the stars being where they're supposed to be in the light. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end. So it's just once again, God has pre-written because we were created by him. This is why we struggle with these things. If God didn't write it in our heart, why would we struggle with it? There'd be no struggle. We would just say it's not real. We all came from this or from that. But um, anyway, so it and it goes back to maybe nature versus nurture, how we were raised and whatnot, but it's also a spiritual awakening. So, one thing I wanted to mention with uh Ecclesiastes in mind, so how God made everything beautiful in his time. So, some of the top most beautiful places on earth that demand a creator so I want to go. We all have a bucket list, right? Getting older, we're like, I want to go here, I want to go here, I want to see certain things. These are well worth looking just at a picture on Google, whether it's a photo that somebody took or you know, a satellite view. Banf National Park in Canada has turquoise water, glacier curves, mountain ring masterpiece. I want to go and it it it's like a screensaver coming to life. When you see something like that, it it's it's like seeing a beautiful painting or a picture. That picture, um, if it wasn't painted, was created, right? It's because it's it's something we can go and see, it's a real place, and it makes you say, Wow. Okay. So if you're if you're not a believer, where did that come from? Why your beauty? Yeah, and intricacies in in just that picture, the way things flow. If it's a waterfall, how does that water flow flow a waterfall work and flow? All these things have a design, yeah, right? It's an engineering masterpiece and the colors and how they're created. And sometimes it's because of how, like when the earth was um taking shape or when the flood happened, um, things grinding against each other and it shined certain types of rocks to have this beautiful color and pattern. So now I'm going really deep, but another one's Bora Bora in uh in the French uh Polynesia, crystal clear lagoons, uh bungalows, coral reefs, volcanic peaks. Yeah, it's just another place you look at it, and it's changing because volcanoes and why not everywhere, Bora Bora, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:35

Yeah, the differences, yes, not to interrupt you, but the differences in these beautiful places you're talking about. If it if it was just some accident, why not all the same? Yeah, right? But the beauty and the differences between these places you're referring to, why? Where did that where would that come from?

SPEAKER_02 48:52

Yeah, because there are like glaciers that are beautiful, you know, places where it's frozen that also has beauty. Um, so last one I'll talk about the top five. I'll just I'll mention so Santorini, Greece, and Patagonia, which is uh Argentina and Chile, but the last one's the Maldives. It's a chain of tiny islands floating in neon blue water. Everything is crystal clear, perfect beaches. The sand is is like a texture that's unreal. Um, the clarity, the corals all visible from above, like if you were flying over. It's just absolutely beautiful. So these are all places all over the world that people want to go to see. They want to buy a poster, they want to have a screensaver, um, calendars, or watch a documentary on uh you know the Discovery Channel. Why? Because it's so beautiful, and you want to be able to see something like that with your own eyes. Why? Why it demands a creator?

SPEAKER_01 49:47

Yeah, we were the to have that desire put in us alone is is such a significant truth. But the the complexity you talk about the macro and the micro, I think of these places, and as you just keep going micro all the way down to the complexity of a grain of sand on the Maldives, and how that grain of sand is different than a grain of sand in another part of the world. But even just in that grain of sand, the things that they're discovering, uh, which I think I saw this thing, someone put it under the most amazing microscope, and they were all um sea crustaceans, yeah. Little tiny shells, micro that they look like shells. Yeah. When you when I they you know, it got down, there was like just four of them, just in inside this grain of sand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 50:33

Same thing with snowflakes, absolutely each one is like a masterpiece, each one is is uh is an actual has design to it, it's just absolutely beautiful. I mean, you look at a flower, the the I it still floors me. I when you stare at a flower and start actually looking deep into it, how intricate and and special and beautiful that flower is.

SPEAKER_04 51:00

Yeah, it feels like no matter what turn you go, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:02

Anything that you of God's creation that you look at, it just is is something you can study and look at. I think that's isn't that God he gave us the curiosity in our in our humanity to want to study his world and how much joy we get out of it, how much glory God should get from it. Because when we actually have the right foundation, we can then bring glory to God, which is part of the reason we exist.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

I mean, it's not like when I look at this complexity of a flower, I'm like, wow, that nothing is amazing. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I never think that. Of course, I have a God orientation, so I immediately think, God, you are masterful. Yeah. But if I didn't, if I took God out of the picture and I'm staring, I we have this lilac bush in our backyard, and every year they bloom, and I always take photos of them. I get real close. Yeah, and uh, and then I like to zoom in because our cameras keep getting better and better. Yeah, and as you zoom in, I'm telling you, it's it's awe-inspiring. I don't first of all, that I am awed by that. Yeah, is a reflection of God's image on us. But just inside of this creation, this thing, there is no chance it was accidentally put that designed that way. Yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_06 52:09

But the more and more you study, the more and more that becomes even more clear.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

Yes, you would think. Yeah, you would think. Um, so that's what we're trying to prove out. What else? Um, what's our next thought here?

SPEAKER_02 52:20

Yeah, so I uh doubled up on topic. So in I love that uh remember the game civilization? Oh, yeah. So every civilization, every civilization has sought God. And in that game, like each civilization you pick has their own deity and it gives you plus one for strength or whatever for your uh for your uh civilization. But so all throughout civilization, they've all sought a God, right? So we were designed to worship, but sin is where we fall off the mark, and then we end up worshiping something we're not supposed to. So all across history and culture, so humanity, humanity is instinctively uh sought after the divine. So Acts 17, 27 says that they should seek God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yeah, he's actually not far from each one of us. So we're drawn to God because he's our creator. Just you know, it's kind of like we were talking about the analogy of the family. Our kids are drawn to us. Yes. We are kind of like their their mini God. We're we're their their leader, their teacher, right? And so um, I think that's really important to understand. It there's a hierarchy going from micro to macro. Yeah. Um, so we've got um we've got a lot of major world religions. So this is where we fall off the mark, and this is where people go, nope, I'm not gonna believe that God of the Bible is the true God, but I'm gonna go pursue something else. I'm gonna go believe in something else. And all of these are man-made, right? They were written. Our Bible is written by man, but in the Bible, it actually has God saying, I am, I am the I am, right? He's he's claiming he is have no other gods before you exactly. And so there, so I did a research, I did some research. So there's roughly 12 major world religions: there's Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Sikhism. I mean, there's some that I haven't even heard of. So Christianity is uh one that falls into all these categories. So why all the different religions? You have to ask that, right? If if God is our creator, then why did he create our religions? But he didn't create other religions. So we all seek a God. And there is uh an evil one that lurks in this world. His name is Satan, and he is the master of lies and confusion. This is his strategy. God gave us free will, so we're allowed to create these strategies. He allows it because he knows that without free will, true love and true choice to love and and honor him won't come. So that's that's the downfall of freedom of of will. So 1 Corinthians 4 1433 says, For God is not a god of confusion, but of peace. So why is all there this confusion? If God's not a uh a god of confusion, we talked about this earlier that there's moral law, God is morality, uh has has morality, and in following Christianity has the moral path that keeps us in line. But when we start wandering out of that, things get a little shaky, right? With other religions. And I don't want to pick on anyone because each one of them has an example, but like Islam targets Christians in a lot of cases or uh Jewish people. There's there's a hatred there, and uh that's that's falling away from what God had commanded. So God is not a God of confusion, so that's why we have all the confusion because we have an enemy, uh Satan, that's causing the confusion. So the implication comes from that confusion is human sin, spiritual deception from the evil one and his and his minions, uh and Satan himself. So you have to ask with all this confusion, where is which one is real? And there are people out there, um, Lee Strobel is a good example. He was an atheist and he went out to disprove Christianity. Yes, and he ended up becoming saved because he's uh he's a very um logical thinker and scientific, and everything pointed back to God. Yeah, I love that, which is beautiful. So, what I encourage people is to s to think through is why why all the confusion? Well, we know that it's sin, and because we have an evil one that hates what God has designed, and so how do I find the truth? Well, seek and he will reveal himself with all these different religions. You should be able to, using a logical mindset, don't let your emotions take over. You should be able to see which where the truth is. And so I thought that was a really important topic. Um, to help people get grounded, you have to be grounded.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

It's a deep topic, too, because I mean, when you talk about civilization over the over the centuries and and the God views that have erupted, I mean, you have to go all the way back. And again, this is the the biblical truth that in the you know, God created man, everything was perfect, and then sin entered. Yeah, and then from there is it's been a constant battle. Mankind continues to want to to sin and create gods. I mean, really, that was the the first sin was you could be like God.

SPEAKER_05 57:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Um, and there's something in us that that drives towards that. And I think of even godlike, you know. Yeah, we want to be godlike. I mean, we power is still to this day what we're drawn to, uh, control power. And I think of my my journey through the um uh the the old testament that I'm going through right now and watching um how God was leading the people of Israel and they continue to be drawn to other gods. Yeah, even with his faith, right? Yeah, even with his faithful close relationship with them, speaking them to them to them directly. And then even so, when he finally brought them into the promised land, I know I'm getting biblical here, but um, historically, he brings them in the promised land. He says, I've I've I've I've been true to my word, I brought you to this land, it's amazing. I'm just asking you to continue to follow me. Do not, you know, he wiped out all the civilizations that were in that region in order to purge these gods, these idols, this way of living that was con uh, you know, uh against God. And yet they did. They immediately fell right into that desire to pursue other gods. Yeah, so what a great point is you look at civilization as that these world religions continue to be at odds. Christianity remains um constant and unique, and unique in so many ways. But again, that we could that's such a bunny trail, we won't go down, but probably would be interesting at some point to talk about the uniqueness of Christianity to many many of these other worldviews. So yeah. Okay, great, great point. What else? Um as we're moving along, we're about wrapping it up.

SPEAKER_06 58:56

The resurrection of Jesus has historical evidence.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:00

Um, so things like the empty tomb, eyewitnesses, martyrdom of disciples, um, the explosive growth of Christianity, it all demands an explanation. So why? And I know we kind of we this was something we talked about last week too, but um to highlight it that I know um no one's dying for something unless they have have some reason to believe that that would bring you to that point of that. So we have you know, so many different historical accounts, um undisputed historical accounts of the resurrection of Jesus. Even from non-Christians, even from non-Christians, from and we've talked about that last last week. So those that's an entire and we could do just a podcast on that. I'm sure we could talk about all the different things that are laid out in that, but that is something that you know you you have to square with at some point is what do you do with the historical account of the fact that Jesus rose from the dead?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

Well, let me jump on that because it really it hints towards one of my thoughts, and I think I probably share a bunch of scripture. So let's jump into that. The Bible's prophecies were fulfilled. Yep. And specifically, because we could talk about all the prophecies that were fulfilled, we'll talk just about the ones relating to Jesus Christ. Because again, what we're talking about here is the reality of God. Is he real? And I think when you track this and you see that prophetically it was fulfilled in the Bible with the person of Jesus Christ, you got to grapple with that truth. You cannot escape this truth. The Bible contains prophecies written centuries before Jesus was born that describe his birth, his suffering, death, burial, and resurrection with astonishing accuracy. I mean, think about that. Over uh centuries before he was even born, it was laid out. No other religious figure in history walked into centuries of written prophecy and fulfilled them publicly, perfectly. Think about that. The uniqueness of who Christ is. And I think it's why to this day people still reference Jesus as a real person. They don't deny him as a real person, they want to question who he was. You're right. They they they have to because you can't erase them out of history. It's clearly and publicly documented.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:20

And he was here for 33 years. Yeah. So that's like a blip on the on the human scale of how much he has radically altered humanity in 33 years of life to the point that 2,000 years later we're still have uh cre Christianity is thriving and and living on. That is miraculous.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:48

This is one of the strongest evidences uh for Christianity. And I don't want us to glaze over it because it's not just evidence for Christianity, it's proof of God in this scenario. Prophecies written centuries, preserved publicly, can't deny, and then fulfilled historically in Christ. Strongest evidence for Christianity.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:07

Yeah, you you said um historically and the timeline. You had said 2,000 years later. Well, for all the people that say, well, God's not real, well, you better talk to somebody about the fact that we're in 2026 because we're on God's calendar. Yeah. We're at 2026 because it references the death of Christ. Yes, yeah. You know, before Christ, after death. So is that what it yeah? And why would I think pretty much almost the entire world agrees that we are in 2026? That that's powerful right there. That got we are on God's calendar.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

Yeah, I I and again, I know that's a bunny trail, but the influence of Jesus Christ on so many things is extraordinary. Um, and how it's lasted all the way till today. But the moment he stepped foot on earth was already fulfilling centuries of prophecy about him. Um Jesus isn't vaguely he doesn't vaguely resemble the prophecy that has been given. The argument is that Jesus fulfilled specific, detailed predictions, impossible to control naturally. And we can't ignore that. Um, and just to highlight a few, because I don't want to go too long on this, Micah 5.2, the birthplace of Christ. This was 700 years before Jesus came, was was prophesied, but you, oh Bethlehem, and it talks about from from you shall come forth for for me one who is to be ruler in Israel.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:37

Yeah, Micah 5.2.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

Fulfilled in Matthew 2.1. Um, why this matters? Mary and Joseph didn't have any control over uh the Roman census and and the timing of all this. Bethlehem was a small, um, insignificant town. Um, no one would have chosen it purposefully, right? I mean, it was it's it's off the radar. It's um yet the Messiah's birthplace was specifically named centuries ahead. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:04

Um I'm sure many other babies were born there. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:06

Yeah. Yeah. Why, yeah, absolutely. Isaiah 53, the suffering servant, it talks about again. This is 700 years uh before Christ. Isaiah 53 is astonishing on this because it it describes his rejection, the suffering, the substitutionary death, uh, the silence before accusers, his burial, um, and ultimate victory, all laid out 700 years before he even came.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:32

And that and that goes back to where we talked about creation is precise. Yes, God was precise in his prophecies. Yes, and I maybe that's why people have such a hard time with it. It's like it's too exactly to believe that. How silly is that? It's too good to be true, but it is. They get frustrated and they quit, or two, they they become saved because they're like, there's it's just too much evidence. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

I I think that you're gonna if you reject it, it's out of just um pure desire to reject God, right? Um, rather than rational thought. And I think that's what we're encouraging people to do. If if there's anyone listening that's actually searching, um use your mind, use your thought, engage the mind to look into these details. And I believe that you will discover the truth of the Bible, the reality of God, and ultimately, maybe even more important, you find hope and peace in your own life to deal with the fear and anxiety that you're dealing with. Um, but yes, uh rejected by his own people, fulfilled, he would suffer innocently, fulfilled. He would bear the sin of others, fulfilled. Um, he was silent before his accusers. Um, a lamb led to the slaughter, it says in Isaiah 53, pierced in death, um, all fulfilled, bare. Buried with the rich, which I thought was really unique in Isaiah 53. It says, with a rich man in his death, and obviously we know that he was buried in the tomb of the Joseph of Arimathea, who was a rich man. Yeah. Down to some and a real person, by the way. Yeah, not some mis yeah, mystery person.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:16

I think the way that they buried people when you were a criminal was just in a in a pile with others. Like it wasn't it wasn't at all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:27

And why would it go against the norm? Because God is powerful and precise. Yeah. He wanted to make a statement. He wanted to say, hey, I am powerful enough to make a statement a thousand, two thousand, seven hundred years prior, and it will happen.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:39

Yeah. And I think it's also why uh he stirred up such a hornet's nest. Um and really for me, struggles uh when I look at the those who the Jewish people who ultimately crucified him, the power struggle that they were trying to hang on to in not recognizing him for who he was, it should have been apparent to everyone. It was for some. Um, but it shows you that there is the ability to suppress truth. Yeah, which I think is ultimately um, you know, where this goes is there's just a a willing suppression of truth when it comes to who Jesus Christ was, rather than an objective look at it. Yeah. Um awesome. I I think it should shake us up when it when we think about um, you know, looking at who who who God is, the reality of who God is. Yeah. What else we got?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:31

So um I took one other topic, uh, how Jesus claims to be God in the New Testament. Um, I think that's powerful because that is unique from all of the re all of the other religions. So Jesus made explicit, unambiguous claims to his divinity, to who he is. Buddha never claimed to be God, Muhammad never claimed to be God, Confucius, uh Krishna, which is divine uh mythological system. Um Hindu texts, uh, they describe like avatars and but not a like a single creator entering history. Jesus said, I and the father are one. Before Abraham was, I am. No one comes to the Father except through me. So these are identity statements that he's saying who he is. It's just not just a teaching where the other religions are saying, Well, here's a teaching, here's what I want you to do, and how I want you to act, which God does, but he also claims himself. And then the Bible presents God as entering human history. No other uh document has this kind of um transcription. So other religious texts they describe visions, dreams, philosophies, moral teachings, spiritual principles, but the Bible claims that God speaks audibly, right? He actually spoke and people heard him, and also through his uh printed word, uh God had appeared physically, but no other religions have that. God acts in real time. And we as Christians, as believers, have experienced that. And and I would almost argue that uh non-believers that have seen a miracle, that's also God acting in real time, because God has that ability even to this day. He he did it a lot in the old testament, but I still think it still happens today. Um, and then God becomes human in Jesus' form, and Jesus was the only uh person or human that did amazing things that were documented both in the Bible and outside of the Bible, miracles that people couldn't explain. So the the in in it's historical, these are historical claims. These are this is not uh a fairy tale like um we're gonna talk about the um the seven dwarfs. This is really this is real stuff, guys. This is stuff you can find if you look for it. There are historical documents that uh prove all these items. So once again, is there a God? Yes, yes, there's so much evidence that points to it, and um, you can use these uh calmly in a debate with somebody who's asking you these questions, whether you're Christian or and talking to another Christian to strengthen them, or uh the unbeliever that is looking for answers.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:09

Can I mention um I know that in different religions they have Jesus, they have a a view of Jesus in those different religions too. Yeah. Um, and I just want to encourage anyone who's listening to this that you know, I know Islam has a view of Jesus. Yeah, he was a prophet, but but the Bible very specifically shares what Jesus has actually said. So it's like what you were saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:38

So learn who Jesus is.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:39

You have to learn who Jesus was from the Bible. And if you're seeking who Jesus is, please go to the Bible. Because they're linked. That is most important. It is most important to find out the truth about who Jesus is. I love that you know, in the old testament, you hear God saying, I am that I am. You know, tell them that I am has sent you, has sent you. And like to Moses, he said that. And then you go into the New Testament to New Testament, and Jesus is saying, I am the way, I am the truth. I am the door, I am. He is stating that he is also the I am.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:17

Yeah, yeah, and I just He makes a declaration he is God. Yeah. No, that's significant. I I I think um all of it, and I I just love how it's linked together. When we have the a question like, is there really a God? It inevitably leads to the truth of the Bible. It inevitably leads to who Jesus was. And when you buy into one, you buy into all. And I think for those other religions that have embraced some things, uh, a creation story, Jesus, the the man, Jesus, then uh the one who's seeking should say, What are the true origins here? Where did this man Jesus come from? Well, he's recorded in the Bible. Dive into the Bible.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:02

Well, and wouldn't you say that if if someone is telling you that you, you know, they believe in Jesus, but only Jesus, and they don't believe in the Old Testament or Genesis to be very, very disappointed. There, you know, you can't that is uh where Genesis is what holds all of the foundational teaching of what we believe. So when you undermine Genesis chapter one through eleven, it really makes it hard to share the gospel with anyone. So keeping that intact, if you're in a church that doesn't believe in Genesis, the that Genesis one through eleven is actual literal historical account of what happened in the beginning, that could be a real issue. So because it's gonna be it's gonna be put throughout the entirety of what they're teaching then. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:53

So that's great. Yep. I think we covered that. Um I I got a I got uh one I want to share. Um humanity universally longs for meaning. Oh, yeah. Um, let's just talk about the the seekers out there who have that empty hole. And again, I think this speaks about our humanness, that we are drawn to eternity, we're drawn to meaning, we're drawn to purpose. And when God is pushed out of the picture, people don't stop worshiping. I think that that's true. They don't they just start worshiping lesser things, or or other, yeah, other things, right? Other things, things they create, lesser, they're just lesser. They're not God. And you can give people pleasure, success, and freedom and as much as you want. But if you remove God, they still wake up asking, why am I here? Yep. It's never removed because you dumped stuff on them. And so here's what I see. We live in the most entertained generation in history, yet also one of the most anxious, yeah, uh, lonely, and spiritually restless people. Yep. Um, and why is that? Why why is that happening? Because removing God does not remove humanity's longing for him. And I think that no matter how much you work at it, you can't erase that desire to know truth, to know meaning, the origins. It's it's embedded in us. And the human heart keeps searching for infinite meaning because it was never designed to be satisfied by temporary things. No matter how much we try, and we do, we desperately try to fill those gaps of our day. But I think all of us have experienced at some point waking up in the morning and just feeling that that struggle. Even believers, even Christians wake up sometimes. And if you're not nurturing your spirit, you're waking up with this emptiness. And unless you begin to immediately fill that with God's truth, we talk about just reading the Bible, prayer, and and drawing in, you carry that emptiness right into your day. And I just think about how many people today who are pushing God out of the picture and trying to fill it, this void with so many other things are still ending up empty, anxious, fearful. Um, because ultimately they're looking for that meaning. And and I I think humanity, the fact that humanity is is longing for this meaning is is pointing to God. Um, purpose, eternity, transcendence are built into us. We desire to find it and to know it. In fact, Ecclesiastes 3.11 says he has put eternity into man's heart. And we got to grapple with that. Yeah. Um, what what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:35

Yeah, we talked uh we talked a little bit about that earlier. Um, I I think it's an impossible void when when we reject God, reject a creator, reject uh the the moral hierarchy, the the macro level of where we came from. That stresses us out. I mean, I was when I was a kid, I wasn't raised in the family dynamics that you guys had. And I always remember um as a kid looking up at the stars and going, what is out there? And I, you know, I would plead with whatever was out there, what there was creation. I knew there was something out there, but I didn't know what. And I, you know, I went through phases as a kid. I'm like, maybe there's aliens, maybe there's this and that. And that's because I was also on the school system. And I mean, yeah, I was searching. Yeah. And then um, so you you look for these answers, but it is a void. I remember how restless I was and how it bothered me and got saved at 12. And I'm like, that makes sense. I it wasn't a problem for me to hear scripture and go, I do believe that, and I trust that it's real, even though I don't understand all of it at the time. Uh I I believe in it. And and I think that's you were talking about today. You have people, they have a bunch of stuff. We have people who are wealthy, and they're some of the loneliest people out there. When they can have anybody, it doesn't make sense to us, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:51

We think that should fulfill them.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:52

Well, and I would say, you know, I'm not picking on them, but I would say probably most of them are void of Christ and a creator because they do have all these things. And so I I agree. I think I think that's the um the struggle our society is having, especially in America. We are a consuming nation. We've got so many things, much more than other countries. That's why everyone wants to come here. I mean, we've got tons of stuff, stuff that they never have seen before. And it it replaces if they um you know worship that or that becomes more important than God, or they don't know God, that becomes their God, you know, that whether it's cars, their house, uh, their job, money. I mean, it goes on and on and on. Um, so I think that's uh you've hit it on the head. That's that's when we put that outside, it creates a void that cannot be filled.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:43

Yeah, and here's what happens when when this is our modern crisis today, a society that pushes God out, anxiety rises, depression rises, hopelessness rises, um, identity confusion starts taking place because we push God out, addictions rise, and it's everything that we're seeing today um in greater proportions. Not that it didn't always exist, it's that it just the the more we push God out in greater numbers, the more these things take over our society, and we're seeing it. Meaning, uh, meaning is just collapsing on people because they can't find it, and they're desperately trying to fulfill it with success and politics and entertainment and social media and everything, trying to plug in these gaps, but that we know that doesn't satisfy it. Just keeps leaving you, none of it satisfies, it just leaves you empty. So when God is removed, this is this is it, this is what I would consider today. When God is removed, purpose becomes subjective, um, morality becomes unstable, which is a hundred percent what we're seeing today. Identity becomes self-created, literally what we're watching happen. Yeah, and life becomes accidental, which is the the big bang, the mystery, the nothing. Um because God is out of the picture. And without God, humanity struggles to explain why life has any meaning at all. Um, why are we struggling? Why are we presenting this, the reality of who God is and is God real? Because I want to solve this for people. I want people to know that he is in fact real, and that his message for us is that he has put us together, that we are fearfully and wonderfully made and created. And um, I don't want people to struggle with this reality. I it's sad to think that so many are dealing with this. Um Ecclesiastes says, eternity is already written in the human heart. And because of that, if God is pushed out, oh, that that hopelessness would just take over. That longing for forever, for purpose, for truth, for transcendence is is evidence that we were created by God for God. And so I would hope that we embrace it because that's when you really find out who you are and what God wants to do with your life.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:57

You know, I remember, I mean, it's been a long time. Um, Rick Warren's like purpose-driven life book that came out, long it's been a long time now, but the idea of like um that seeker, you know, um thought process. I know this is an entire other podcast, but the idea that, you know, you can live just live the life in front of people and kind of like pushing out the idea of having to say or share what you know is right, like speak the gospel, you know, tell people the truth. And I think that the church today has been for years not really knowing the word of God like they should, like we should, and not we because we don't know enough, we don't think we can answer the questions because scientists scientists say this. So that I'm not really yeah, because they're smarter than me. And so I'm not sharing my testimony anymore. I'm not telling people as much about Jesus. When a question does come up, I just step away versus speaking the truth because I'm just gonna love people. Do you see how that like, and then then we have this spiral down. So I think there is some um where we were talking the other day. Why are we not shouting this from the streets? Like, why are we not telling people about the truth of what we are talking about right now? Because every person has this want. Every person is seeking something. It wants every person wants to know the answers. And I think we have critical, uh we're at a critical place right now where we have to share the truth, no matter what, because that's where the answers are. We do have actual tangible answers to give people, which is what this is about. But okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:36

Well, that's setting the time aside in our life to do that. Yeah. To be honest with you, uh, it's um, you're right. I mean, the truth is at our fingertips, but I do agree Christians are not engaging the mind enough. Um, we we go after emotion. Um, we're unfortunately being fed by very weak pastors who are not teaching depth and truth as it should be. And let's just face it, more and more churches will not stand on these definitive truths, especially from Genesis, just fearful that they're gonna alienate people rather than give people truth. Yeah. So I think it is. It's harder and harder today to be bold about the black and white. And that's why we want to talk about uh is God real, the reality of who God is, because I think it's a bigger question in our society than we're willing to accept. Um, and I would even argue in our churches it's a bigger question than ever before. I think people grapple with some of these truths. So, and I know we're circling a lot of these points we're making, some are overlapping a little bit, which I think is all right. But um, let's let's rip off a few more before we wrap this one up.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:46

Yeah, let's I think that's the beauty of all these topics that they are all intertwined and they all point to each other. I think that's the beauty of Christianity. So I think it's a good point. Um so uh one one other one. I keep saying one other one. I've got ugly more. I forget. There's a lot, yeah. There's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:05

We thought this was gonna be brief, but I'm thinking this is okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:08

So Christianity explains human nature accurately, right? We we talked about sin and moral law and how um we replace God with other things. God talks about these things in the Bible, which that's another like prophecy almost. Like God, yeah, He knows us, He wired us, He knew all these things were gonna happen. So the Bible explains both humans' dignity, our pride, and our brokenness better than any other worldview. You don't see other religions going, you're gonna be this and you're gonna be this. Um, you know, you're gonna you're gonna have your moral side and your immoral side. It doesn't talk about that, but in the Bible it does. So Romans 3.23 says, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. What I love about that is it doesn't say you as a Christian, you're any better than the the person of the world. I mean, there I think there is a there's there's some harmony that we have or peace that we have knowing that we're saved, but we're still sinners, right? So we're all in the same boat that we've all been born into sin. So people who are listening, that um if you're not saved, we all fall short of the glory of God, which absolutely puts a uh even playing field um out there. So this verse captures two realities for every person out there, and we already know these things are true. So we we we have dignity or the glory of God inside of us, and then we're all broken. So there's the dichotomy, right? The the two sides of us, and so we all have sinned. And here's why that matters. So the Bible explains that the human condition, this human condition very accurately. So why why um why do humans have these amazing things like being able to produce art, have love? We talked about that, sacrifice creativity. Um, well, it's because we were built. We have a creator, we have a God. There's a there's a God. Why do humans do terrible things, right? The other side of that, where we're violent, selfish, corrupt, cruel. Guys, I'm guilty of those things, even being saved. I've had my bad days where I'm short with somebody. Doesn't mean I'm perfect, but what it means is I'm I'm forgiven. And and I'll also reflect, I'll be like, oh, I shouldn't have done that. And if I did hurt somebody, in most cases, I'd go back to him and say, you know what? I'm sorry, I was having a bad day. We forgive me, or or um would you give me another chance? Whatever that conversation is. So this is all explained biblically. We don't have to wrestle with, well, why? Right, why are we this? Why are we this? It's written in the Bible. God didn't intend for us to have sin, but unfortunately there is now sin, and that's why we have um the darker parts of us, and we all have them. And so um, I I really love how the the Bible explains this the humanity of us. No other religion does that.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:01

That's actually really um it's powerful when you really start going down that thought pattern, you know, why why do we do what we do? Yeah, um, and how do we fix it? Right. So, as you were talking, my mind immediately went to Ephesians where it talks about the lowly walk, yeah, the walk of the believer, because once you identify why, you know, the why of some of the things we're doing, uh the sinful nature that's in us that drives, you're right. No one else will describe that for you. Um, and I think that that's the power of the Bible is that opens up who we are, our desperate need for Christ, and our and our need to ask for forgiveness and to repent of our ways. Yep, and then how to walk, how to do this correctly. Um, who else does that? I mean, in in such um vivid detail.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:55

Not the other religions that we always talk about, you know, the otherworldly views. Yeah, no, and and so unique.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:01

Let's just talk about the real power of it. Um, it's really not up to us. Um, we couldn't save ourselves. And that's so that turns over to the powerful work of Jesus Christ, who um apart from him, we would all find ourselves lacking. So um very powerful thought. Yeah. Um I I have a thought too. Um, and this is a this is a this is one, I guess, for those who are intellectuals. Yeah, I think whenever you talk about the reality of God, you you come across an intellectual individual who uses, and I say that loosely, um they will use uh high speech, big words to try to disenfranchise you a little bit and unsettle you. But the laws of logic require an ordered mind. Um, the atheist uses logic to argue against God while borrowing the very rational framework that. Only makes sense if God exists. That kind of rationale. If the universe is truly random and meaningless from nothing, chaotic, why does it obey mathematical laws with breathtaking precision? Why would that be? And I love this because I've dealt with people who immediately resort to this lot, this crazy human created logic to try to um you know pull you apart from God and make him seem ridiculous and simple and childish, um, almost demeaning you in their efforts to do so, but not recognizing the fact that they have the framework of logic and why they're even using the mind to try to battle with order and they're borrowing the framework that God put in place, right? To argue against it.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:54

To argue against it.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:55

Because certainly everything from nothing, that kind of chaotic, we know it cannot happen, but even in this idea that it would, that something so irrational and chaotic and just accidental turned into such logic with mathematical precision is is I'm sorry, it's illogical. It's it's non-thinking. And I find that kind of humorous that individuals will resort to logical dis uh arguments, should I say? John 1 1 says, in the beginning was the word. And and watch this because this is really cool. I don't know if I've always seen this, but the Greek word for the word logos, um, which is which is the word is reason, logic, rationality, order, meaning. So he says, in the beginning was reason, logic, rationality, order, meaning. And that was given to us by God. That was put in place by God and and done so in the beginning. Uh, it didn't evolve, it just was because an intelligent creator put it in place for mankind. And John is declaring the universe is ultimately grounded in the rational mind of God. And aren't we thankful for that? That even those atheists, if if you're an atheist and you're arguing against it, the rationale, the logic that you have was given to you by God. To it's unfortunate that we use it for the wrong things, right? I mean, obviously, creativity can all be used for the wrong things, but it was given to us by God. He set that in place. Um, and I just marvel at that. And logic is not material, it didn't just ooze from some amoeba that somehow evolved over billions of years. You cannot weigh logic, touch logic, or observe logic physically, and and yet atheists will still depend on it to try to argue against God. Yep. Um, I just think that it's profound. I think it's kind of humorous a little bit. Um, I think it brings the thinking mind of Christians to the right place where we have to acknowledge and declare that God gave us this framework of logic. He put the laws together, he tightly wound it. I think you were mentioning early on, Amy, that you know, the the in the beginning, um, all the pieces, how it was formed.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:25

Um so I think that's there's a there's a uh a philosophy of of thinking um called brute fact view, which is the simplistic view of the universe just is like law-like, no deeper reasoning required.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:44

Yeah, okay. Don't ask, don't look behind the curtain, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:31:48

It just is. Just deal with that, just deal with it. It that's just the brute fact of it. It just is. Okay. That is there this logical thought that they're just refusing to take the step one step further and say, logically speaking, that's just nonsense.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:09

So again, it's I would like to take the brute force and just acknowledge that God's that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:15

Um he is eternal.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:18

Yep. I think it's uh it's the beginning of a good idea.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:21

The brute fact is this God is, he does exist.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:25

If the universe is ultimately random, accidental, and irrational, then human reasoning itself becomes unreliable. Well, and brute force then can't be compatible.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:34

No, that's not that's my whole point.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:36

Yes, so yeah, why why has all why have all these theories changed so much and people aren't going, yes, I can't believe that. The Bible has been consistent, but the theories of millions of years, billions of years, trillions of years, now brute force, now you know it's stretching it out, coming up with ideas, yeah, stars that somehow produced mankind.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:57

Yeah, now I'm sure aliens are in that mix too. But um, from yeah, so I think human reasoning itself becomes unreliable. Um, why trust the brain if it's merely just chemical reactions all shaped by survival instincts? Yep. Uh why would you ever trust that? And mathematics itself, if you were to look at it, is deeply ordered. We rely on it, it's a constant physics, gravity, chemistry, planetary motion. Uh the DNA structure, like we talked about, is is fixed, it's deeply ordered to the point where mankind can barely understand it. Yeah, um, it's complexity. Math is discovered, not invented. Um, and why? Because creation reflects rational order. Yeah. And we can actually lean on it. I think some of the greatest discoveries, uh, creations have come from mathematical uh equations that have come from logic that ultimately reflect a creator, yeah, God. Um, but turning to scripture uh as an explanation for this, the Bible says creation is not chaotic. Uh, Colossians 1:17, in him all things hold together. Thank God. And um upheld by Christ. The intellectual, I guess, tension in this, when you start thinking about this, is that the skeptic often mocks God uh as this irrational concept while simultaneously relying on rational thought and objective truth and logic and ordered laws that are by nature only created by God.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:33

Yeah, and can only exist with God.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:36

Yes. If there's no rational creator behind the universe, why should we trust human reasoning at all? Exactly. Is I guess the point I want to make when it comes to saying God is real, he is true, it is um apparent.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:50

And it's the most reasonable base. No matter what, yeah, it is the most reasonable base. Even ask chat GPT, ask any, any, it it even scientists will say it is the most reasonable base.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:05

But what if okay, well I would love to get in that topic of why do we reject reject his his his creation? But yeah, I it's I I love that God has put so much in front of us, and we've we talked through scripture, we've talked through um things that we can visibly see or research, and yet there's still gonna be people out there who go, nope, not gonna, I'm not gonna accept it.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:35

Yeah, yeah. So I'll I'll say this one last one as we wrap up, and we've definitely covered a lot today. Um, deep down, people already know. I believe that wholeheartedly. Um, Romans 1 says humanity's problem is not that God is hid, the problem is that people suppress what has already been made visible. Yeah, um, people deny God intellectually, but they still live every day in a world shouting his existence, uh shouting evidence for him. The Bible doesn't say that people can't see God's evidence, it says that they suppress it. Yeah. And I think that that is a profound truth. And I would encourage those that are struggling to see God as real, or even as Christians, maybe the question is popping up too often in your mind, is this real? Yeah, and let's just face it, I do believe a lot of Christians have those moments where they uh, you know, the the world is so effective at dismantling um God's like the God view that they find those weak moments. And I would hope that this would encourage them to look differently because he has made himself clearly known, clearly seen. You know, he doesn't say that we don't we can't see that, he says that we suppress it. And I I I hope that if there's anyone out there that's struggling, that they would battle that. And and I would start with Romans 1, 18 through 21. So I'll just read it. For the wrath of God is is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made, so they are without excuse. I know I read that last week. It is one of the most profound scriptures. I think it's it's a um relevant word for today. It is in a world that is so aggressively turned against God and scripture and truth, and has become so unsettled and unreliable to the point where it's very difficult for us to trust anything. And um what we can do is we can trust God, we can trust his word, we can trust Jesus Christ, um, his work for us, the work of salvation, his resurrection, and his return that we are hopeful for. Um and so I guess it's a matter of surrendering.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:12

Yes, surrender. Yeah, we need to repent of our sin and believe. Yes, yeah, that's what he requires of us.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:20

Yeah, yeah. For the Christian, it's it's being faithful, right, and being humble. For the non-Christian, it's uh it's really a sin problem. It's seeking versus denying. And and we talked about that last time. We can tell you all these facts, and for an unbeliever out there, they could still say, Well, I still don't believe. That's because it's a spiritual uh change. Once you're once you're saved, you know, right? It's one of those things like when you uh go to Disney World, then you know, right? You know it's a cool place to go. Yeah, been there done that, and I truly believe it's a it's really cool. And the same thing with once you experience salvation, then you truly know. And the people that haven't been saved, of course, they're skeptical, but they haven't experienced it. So I think uh we're all saying on two sides of this for the Christian, here's here's what you need to defend your stance, your your beliefs at any time. And for the unbeliever, we're encouraging you if you see that there is a problem with the logic here of there is no God, look in God's word, trust, yeah, and search, truly search with all your heart, and God will reveal himself to you, and you will find something in scripture that is going to change your life.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:36

Yeah, which is where faith comes from.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:37

Yep. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:38

Yeah, uh as we go through this, I and I obviously we're wrapping this up, but um, I think that we've we've covered this topic the best that we can. I think there are so many resources out there. Yeah, maybe we'll have more links that we can put up on the on the post that I would encourage everyone to just watch, um, look, look deeper into. Um, next week or next podcast, we're gonna dive into another topic. We'll just move on. We've got a lot of questions that we want to answer um that I think we know are relevant. So we're gonna tackle some more in our own practical way. But um, thanks for joining us. It was good chatting today. That's great. Look forward to the next one.