I Love Mondays- Episode 8, March 11, 2026

I Love Mondays-with Mike Heller... an "OG Wednesday" with longtime sports reporter and columnist Tom Oates

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

I love Mondays with Mike Hell.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Broadcasting line from an undisclosed bunker in the Badger State. This is I Love Mondays with Mike Heller. Powered by determination and a little bit of duct tape. Here's your host, Mike Heller.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

All right, so here we go. Uh, this is the second time I have attempted this to do this show of my own technical abilities. So listen, so far, uh eight seconds into this deal, uh, we're pretty good. And that's the goal. That was the goal to get it started and to be able to go live without issues out of the gate. So here we are. Um, and immediately, and I appreciate this. And when we get these things, I appreciate it because George said that was perfect. Love it. Thank you, George. Out of the gate, we get started. You know, uh, we're introducing a new segment today on the program. It is called an OG Wednesday. We're gonna try and do OG Wednesdays. So nobody better than uh an OG Wednesday to uh visit with Tom Oates, one of my favorites. He'll join us in about 10 minutes or so. He's standing by. I have him backstage. He's in the green room. There, I mean, the green room is filled with uh with great drinks and peanut MMs and Twix candy bars and all the good stuff. So Oatesy's probably taking advantage of some of that. We welcome in on a Wednesday. There's uh a few things to cover on I Love Mondays on this Wednesday. One, I might be into it more than many, but the world baseball classic took on a very interesting twist last night when Team Italy beat the U.S. eight to six. And Mark DeRosa, who is the U.S. manager, who's normally an MLB network host analyst, and he's really good. And he's gotten a lot of praise for how he's managed this team. Like he's many people say he's the perfect manager for this team until yesterday. And yesterday he misspoke on an appearance at the MLB network because he talked about getting players off their feet because they'd already clenched a spot in the quarterfinals, which they hadn't. And then when they got beat by Team Italy 8-6 last night, their pool play is done. They're three and one. Italy's three-o. Mexico is two and one. Mexico and Italy play tonight. If Mexico wins, then the U.S. has to have Mexico score more than five runs to get in. If Italy wins, the Americans are are into the metal round, so to speak, the quarterfinals. But if Mexico wins, and let's say they win four to three, the U.S. is out. And Mark DeRos' comments yesterday, he says it was a misspeak, but he didn't have a number of players in his starting lineup. Bryce Tarang was one of them. Uh Bryce Harper was another. As far as not having guys in his starting lineup yesterday, giving them the night off, that was an issue. Bryce Harper, Alex Bregman, Bryce Tarang, none of them started last night. The USA was shut out for the first five innings. They rallied but got beat 8-6. So the best team that you could put together for the team USA is counting on Italy to beat Mexico tonight. Or if Mexico wins, that Mexico wins by scoring more than five runs. Kind of goofy, but the USA could be out of this tournament. It's part of the vagries of having uh, you know, essentially a single elimination tournament. The USA was 3-0. They got beat last night by Italy and could be out because Italy and Mexico could both advance if Mexico wins tonight and doesn't score five runs. Kind of kind of goofy. One other note from last night before we get into some real stuff. Bam Atabao in an I don't care deal. I get it. He scored the second most points in an individual game in NBA history. He scored 83 last night. So it's Wilt, then Bam Atabayo, then Kobe Bryant. Now, let's not be fooled. Nobody saw the game in Philadelphia for uh Wilt to score 100. And I mean nobody. There's no video record of it. I have no idea how that game catered to Wilt. Did they do it on purpose? Did they have an agenda? We know that there was an agenda once Kobe got going. Get Kobe the ball, get him his shots. Last night I didn't watch. Are you kidding me? You think I was gonna watch that NBA game with Bam out of bio and Miami against Washington? Shoot, I didn't even, I did. I tuned into a little bit of Buck's sons last night, but I ultimately don't know why. But I didn't watch a moment of Bam. And I get I get home from uh pulling a shift at the red and white wine bar. It's on Main Street in Wannaky. Uh I get home from that, and my son, 23-year-old Jackson, uh walks in the room. He goes, Mike, are you seeing what Bam Atabayo is doing? And I looked at him and kind of chuckled. I said, Are you kidding me? Have we met? You think I'm watching Bam Atabay in Miami and Washington? He goes, I know, but he's got 83 or 81 points. I said, I want to see how the game shook out. So here's how the game shook out. Chamberlain uh had a 100-point game that has stood since 1962. Kobe is number two on the list going into last night with 81. Bam last night, his final numbers, 43 shots from the floor. He was 20 of 43. 36 of 43 from the free throw line. He shot 43 free throws last night. Were the officials complicit? Was Washington in on this deal? 7 of 22 from three-point range finishes with 83 points. Only Wilt has scored more. And I run this second in the show today, and I don't care. And I think that's the reason I'm putting it out there is that I don't care. I didn't watch, and I wouldn't watch. And if you said, hey, we're gonna replay that, you want to watch it now? No. The answer stays just the same as it did in the uh immediate no. And then the other story of the day is the Max Crosby deal to Baltimore, and this one is fishy. From Vegas to the Ravens, and then the Ravens deny the trade based on a physical. They have the right to do that. It's part of the deal. You have to pass the physical. Trades do go away based on a physical. But then I'm wondering to myself, because now they're in on the Trey Hendrickson deal. It's happened. Baltimore has agreed to sign Trey Hendrickson. Sources are telling uh Adam Schefter today. Four years,$112 million deal could be worth up to$120 with incentives, according to Schefter.$60 million fully guaranteed,$20 million signing bonus. Did they back out so that they didn't have to give up the two first rounders? And they found something in the medical that gave them an out to it and just felt like they worked out a better deal on Trey Hendrickson than they did on Max Crosby because they don't have to give up draft choices, just the money. And then Vegas, in between then and now. And listen, bad franchises do dumb all the time. And I can actually say that because it's a uh a podcast, I don't have to mouth it. They do dumb shit all the time. Bad franchises do. And to me, the Raiders have been a bad franchise for a really long time. A really long time. Since uh the Gruden day. After after Gruden leaves, I don't think they've been good ever. Because after they made the deal on Max Crosby, which wasn't official until later today, and now it's off the books, they then went out and spent like drunken sailors, also knowing that they had two first-round draft choices coming. Well, now they're still on the hook for Max Crosby and they don't get the draft choices. And they signed all the others. I I say this every year during free agency. Bad franchises are bad for a reason. The Jets are bad from the head down. I mean, above the neck, they're bad. Their leadership cut off the head of the snake. Their leadership has been bad for a long time. Leadership in the with the Raiders has been bad for a long time. Now, I know they got Tom Brady as part of the dealings, and maybe that smartens them up a little bit, or maybe not, because this looks terrible. And it looks bad. In some sense, it looks bad on the league. And then, you know, Trey Hendrickson leaves Cincinnati in the AFC North and goes to the highest bidder, the Baltimore Ravens, in the AFC North. Meanwhile, a couple of notes, and then I'll uh thank our sponsors and bring in an OG Wednesday with Tom Oates, if I can figure out how the computer works to do that. Uh the Packers did sign Sky Moore. Sky Moore is going to be a return specialist. I like the move. I don't know if I love the move. I I love that they're giving this a shot because they're terrible in the kick and punt return game. I mean, terrible. They were 32nd, I believe there's 32 teams in a league. They were 32nd in punt return yardage a year ago. That's an issue. Um so it's a problem. And they addressed it in going against Guy Moore, who did have uh at least one very long punt return and a 98-yard kick return last year. His numbers were highly competitive in the league and certainly buoyed by a couple of explosives. And that's what you need. The Packers haven't had an explosive in the punt return game in forever. And so they've addressed some of that. And then the other moves that happened after we did the podcast yesterday is that Elton Jenkins signed with the Browns two years,$24 million, and Romeo Dobbs signed with the New England Patriots four years,$80 million. Some of that money's fake. Um, but those are the reported numbers because the agents kind of have control of what numbers go out right now. Uh, those numbers are never going to be those full numbers, but those things did happen. So, you know, when we talked about this yesterday, the subtractions from the Packers, Malik Willis, Rasheed Walker, Elton Jenkins, Romeo Dubbs, Rashawn Gary, Colby Wooden, uh, Kingsley and Igbari, Quay Walker, Nate Hobbs. Essentially, all of those other than Malik Willis are starters. And if I do the math right, that's eight. Eight starters. They knew it, like this isn't a surprise. Um, some of it financial and others for for other reasons, but that's kind of where we sit on this front. See if I can um can do this on the fly. I do want to thank our sponsors. Listen, uh, a show like this, as we get off the the ground and and try and run, we're this is our eighth show, eighth show. We started last Monday. It's an hour-long daily called I Love Mondays. Um, and and I'm very excited about it. After uh I was let go from iHeart in September, I had six months that um you're not allowed to work. It's called the non-compete. So I didn't do any broadcast for six months. Now I'm back in the fold. And in doing so, I had to lean in to find sponsors. And I did with great help of both uh personal, friend relationships, but also great businesses. So I Love Mondays is presented by the neuroscience group out of the Fox River Valley. In sports, if you trust the right team for your health, it's no different. Neuroscience Group brings together specialists in neurology, spine, and pain management, working together to get you back at full strength. Go to neurosciencegroup.com. Neurosciencegroup.com. Fantastic people. They do great work. And I hope you support them as you're supporting us on the show. I Love Mondays is also presented by M3 Insurance. Proud to serve clients across the country with world-class expertise and individual attention tailored to your business. No compromises, no matter what. With M3, you get it all. The personal guidance you need to protect and grow your business. So if you're involved in that side of your business of securing insurance and benefits for your employees, please visit m3ins.com. That's M3INS.com. Program also brought to you with our partner sponsors, Pottawatomi Sportsbook and Casino. Bet Above the Rest. This goes out to all my fellow sports betters. If you've got the itch to bet on sports, the best place to do it is Pottawatomi Sportsbook. It's your place to bet above the rest. Pottawatomi Sportsbook Hotel and Casino in downtown Milwaukee. And the Mike Heller Show, also presented in part by Habish, Habish, and Rotier. All injury updates, including mine, are presented by Habish, Habish, and Roter. 13 locations to ensure you get a hometown attorney who understands your life and the impact of your injury and is personally committed to your recovery. All right, this is the part that we do here. We do this. I push that button and I bring Tom Oates into the show. And I do that. Look at that, Oatesy. Look at that. You hear I hear you. This is fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Your technological expertise is very impressive.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Yeah, exactly. Um hey, uh, you know, this is an OG Wednesday, and you're my first OG. You good with that? And OG stands for um original guy, old guy.

SPEAKER_03 14:53

Uh there are different Wednesday. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Yeah, it's it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

Um I'll try not to yell at any clouds, okay?

SPEAKER_02 15:04

Let let let me uh let's start with uh what's in what I think is in your wheelhouse, and that's um on the Packers. That you just probably heard me mention, and you know this, all the guys that are gone: Willis, Walker, Jenkins, Dobbs, Gary, Wooden, Enikbari, the other Walker and Hobbs. None of those, essentially, none of those are a surprise, but it is a significant group of departing players because other than Willis, they're all starters.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

There's no question it's a it's a sizable, significant group. And uh, you know, they needed more players anyway. So now they have to replace the ones they lost and add it because I think we uh we can all agree that their depth got to them at the end of last season and was part of the reason they faded right at the end. Um, but I would I I guess I would a cautionary tale here is this is a process, and I'm sure they have a plan. Uh, I mean, I I've known I know these people, I've known them for a long time. They're they're good at what they do, and I'm sure they have a plan. Now, in the NFL, plans don't always, or any sport, plans don't always go as planned, but I'm sure they have a plan uh to rebuild this roster. As you said, the guys that left, some they really liked. I'd say they like really liked Koy Walker. I'd say they really liked Romeo Dobbs, but in Walker's case, and I would put Rashawn Gary in this in this in this uh bucket, is the production wasn't matching the salary. That the Koi Walker was going to get his production, it hasn't matched that. Rashawn Gary's production, he was a good player, didn't match the salary. In Dobbs's case, I just think you can only throw so much at a at the at any particular position. And they've thrown a lot of money at the wide receiver position between with Watson, Reed, and and uh Golden, they have a lot of money tied up in the wide receiver position. And I, you know, they probably could use that money better elsewhere, but I think they really liked Romeo Dobbs. I think they really liked um Quay Walker. Um you know, they they they I'm sure they they have to like Rasheed Walker. He he stepped in and made them look good, and and I thought did a pretty good job. So, you know, this is the economics of the game. The question is, have they made enough cap room and given themselves uh a chance to rebuild this roster? And uh that we won't know that sitting here on the day, which is actually today is the first day of the NFL's of the NFL's 2026 season.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Well, when I think, Otsy, of what this offensive line looks like, uh part of the question with that is they're they're gonna rely on what Goody has done in the draft because the three guys that are in there for sure, Jordan Morgan at left tackle, Sean Ryan drafted at center, Zach Tom drafted at right tackle, coming back from an injury. And then Goody went out last year and got Aaron Banks, and he did not perform at the level, but I believe that they must think that that was injury driven, otherwise, they might choose to have gone a different route. Offensive line play is like a referee in a boxing ring. When it's really good, you kind of don't notice it. You don't notice what they're doing because they're not making mistakes and they're not having your quarterback get hit. I'm I wonder about the offensive line. It's not an area that I have any visual expertise in, but the offensive line is uh critical. And I there are some question marks in what they've got rolling forward.

SPEAKER_03 18:49

Well, I think if you look at uh at how they ended the last two seasons in the in the two playoff games they lost, their their offensive line uh or the the Bears game and the Eagles last year, yeah. Their offensive line failed them. And and it failed them uh in several ways. One of which there were injuries, but that means they didn't have enough depth, quality depth. Right. And another there were there were individual failures of players that they had placed uh um uh a lot of faith in. Um I'm a uh I you know they've seen Jordan Morgan for two years. Jordan Morgan has never played his his ideal position, in my estimation. They must think he's ready to take over at left tackle, which is where he played in college. So you have Jordan Morgan. I thought Banks down the stretch played much better when he when he got injury free. Uh Ryan, Sean Ryan, I thought was was a uh find in in what he did. Um uh at left right guard Belton has a long way to go, but at least he got his feet wet toward the end of last year. And Tom has to stay healthy. I mean, think about how many snaps Zach Tom. Their best offensive linemen played last year. But that also uh raises the question of um depth. And you can't go into a season with five quality offensive linemen. You just can't do it because they're not going to stay healthy. You're going to have to replace you know, one, two, or three of them for a spell or for a long term or whatever. So the the offensive line needs to be a real focus, as does the interior defensive line.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Let me go backwards before we talk about what's going forward, uh, Tom, and good morning to James, who says good morning to me. He didn't say anything to you, Tom. Um James and I go way back.

unknown 20:43

Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Um, the decision to extend Brian Gudakunts and Matt LaFleur after the season ended, we didn't understand how Ed Policy would work. He didn't extend them before the season, said it just isn't in what he likes to do. But your reaction to those two decisions for Matt LaFleur after losing the final five, some of it certainly directed towards injuries. But those two decisions by Ed Policy, uh, your reaction?

SPEAKER_03 21:13

Well, Ed Policy has worked with these guys for a number of years. He knows them, he knows how good they are, how good they are. He's an experienced NFL guy, so he has some some kind of a measuring stick in his own mind of of what works and what doesn't work and who's good and who's not good in the NFL. I think both Brian Gudekunst and and Matt LaFour are pretty highly regarded around the NFL. And I think they're regarded well within the building. And uh I don't have a problem with it. I I think they've they've maintained uh uh a strong roster uh throughout the tenure of both of these guys. Um I thought their depth the last couple years really hindered them, um, but they've They've positioned this team to make a run. And after what Seattle did, I don't see how if you have a decent roster, you're not thinking I can make we can make the Super Bowl. Because no one had Seattle in Seattle's roster in the Super Bowl last November or September or whenever. Um so I I I think they've done a good job. I don't think they've done a great job, but uh as I think as we uh as you look back at the whole postseason thing, when you fire someone, you better have a plan to improve. And I didn't see any of those coaches out there that I thought was an improvement over Matt LaFleur, for instance.

SPEAKER_04 22:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:42

Um you know, and uh it kind of depends what you think of John Harbaugh. And I, you know, I'm I'm of the opinion that uh his defense made him look like a better coach for a lot of years, made him look like a better coach than he was. But uh regardless, you have to have a plan to get better. And you know, look at look at the Packer, the Packer organization. The two general managers in the Super Bowl this year came from the Packers organization, right? Which is the same organization where John Brian Guterkunst learned his craft. It all comes from Ron Wolf through Ted, and then on to Ted Thompson, and then on, and then on to you know, uh Elliot Wolfe and John Schneider and Brian Guterkunst, and now uh the guy in Miami that just left Green Bay. Uh the the Green Bay system is very highly regarded around the league. Uh obviously there are everyone, every GM puts his own touches on things, but there's a system in place. And you know, I I think their leadership is fine. I do I think it's nearing the nearing the point where you you might bail. Yeah, and you know, give it a I I'd give it another year or two, most certainly. And you know, the extensions uh provide for that.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

And and then, you know, I've I've been on the mindset, maybe I'm curious as to whether you agree with me. Money is not a significant issue for the Packers in this. So if Matt LaFleur failed this year, if the Packers were not a playoff team, if coaching appeared to be an issue, just because he was extended doesn't mean that he is not still on the hook if he doesn't perform well. And it could be a an extension that is one year and then a buyout, correct?

SPEAKER_03 24:32

No question. I I mean, I you know, with players, uh spending money with players is a different thing than with coaches because there's a salary cap on players. There's no salary cap on coaches, okay? So um uh that's a pretty uh well-heeled organization right now, okay. They they have a lot of uh money in the kitty. And uh thanks to thanks to a process started by Bob Harlan, 30 the late Bob Harlan, and what a great man he was, um, started by him when he became president in 1989. And and we've all seen what happened, you know. In 91, he he hired Ron Wolf and then Mike Holmgren, and and we've enjoyed more than three decades of great football since then. Um so I don't know that money's an I guess I have a long way of saying, I'm not sure that money is an object for this organization. And then Mark Murphy came in and started the whole Tidal Town thing and and turned Lambeau into a real destination. And uh they've got money. So if they need to buy out a GM or a coach, I certainly think they can do it. And there are no cap ramifications, which we always talk about with players.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

So you brought up Bob Harlan. It was it's on my list to go there. He's one of the unique, and certainly your your time covering the Packers is is right in the wheelhouse of the changes he made. He's one of those unique leaders in sports that is as nice as he was successful. And many times nice guys are there, but they don't find success, or successful guys are there and they're not very cooperative or nice in dealing with the fan base or the media. He's a a rare exception, in my view, uh, to that. And I know you had a lot of experience with uh with Bob Harlan, the late Bob Harlan. Uh, I'm gonna let you talk about what his value was to the program.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

Well, uh there's two things. There's personal, and then there's what he did professionally. Uh, we had a we had a little pregame ritual where I would roll by in the press box and we would discuss college basketball. He loves Bob Harlan. Bob Harlan's from Iowa, where every citizen in the state considers himself a basketball coach. And he went to Marquette, and he was the S ID at Marquette when they hired Al McGuire. And then he went to the St. Louis Cardinals, and then he went to the Packers in uh well, what was it? Sometime in '81 or '71. I seven, I can't remember. But uh, that was a little before my time. But um just uh he was a college basketball uh guru. He he loved it, he followed everything from recruiting to everything. And he loved, you know, he was at Marquette when Al got there, and then obviously he reveled in the Marquette success, but he was just as interested in the Badgers, just as interested in the Big Ten, just as and we would we would have a little discussion every every pregame on college basketball. I made the point that now he's got Sam Decker to talk to because Sam Decker uh married Olivia Harlan, who's Bob's uh granddaughter. So uh uh, you know, but I really uh I think the the the story that really needs to be told is this guy sat in his office and answered his phone.

unknown 28:03

Right.

SPEAKER_03 28:03

Because fans could fans could call him. The owner of an or you know, he's not the owner, but he was the president. An NFL team would talk to fans from his office, honestly, he would answer his phone. I mean, that in one example, it tells you exactly the kind of guy he was. And uh he was he was uh persuasive in a very uh easy-going way, but very persuasive nonetheless, and and very staunch in his beliefs. But there was never any acrimony, everything was he was just such a a wonderful guy to deal with, and um uh everybody's gonna miss him. I mean, there's just uh what he did for the Packers. I mean, I we could talk professionally here. I think when he got to the when he got to the Packers, their kitty did not have a lot of money in it. In fact, they couldn't even afford to go out and spend on it on a on a big free agent because they couldn't roust up enough money for the signing bonus. And um, but he he he put that on track right away. And then in and then he hired Ron Wolf in '91. He didn't he didn't like run the coach out immediately or run the GM out, Tom Bratts and Lindy and Fonnie. He didn't run them out, he gave them a chance, and uh found the situation uh wasn't going anywhere. Hired Ron Wolf, who then fired Lindy. And I guess the the moral of the story is he changed the structure of the Packers. Bob Harlan viewed his job as uh I'm here, coach, GM, whoever you are, player, I'm here to support you and give you everything you want to do your job properly. That was the way he viewed his job. And he invested all the football power in it in the general manager, in Ron Wolf. And then Ron Wolf hired Mike Holmgren, and Ron Wolf traded for Brett Favre, and Ron Wolf uh then signed Reggie uh White the next year, and the the whole program was off and running. And and the the next big thing he did was he took the Packers out of Milwaukee, and that was acrimonious debate, if you remember, because Milwaukee was. Milwaukee had saved uh the Packers as a franchise on a number of occasions by by playing games down there with in bigger stadiums with uh uh so they could make more money. And so that was a huge thing. And then the renovation of the stadium in the early 2000s when they put the luxury boxes all the way around, and and uh that was a huge thing. That was also he stumped the state. Uh he and his staff uh built up all kinds of of uh uh support for that, and it still was a pretty narrow decision. So uh, you know, all those things have turned the Green Bay, turned, in my opinion, the Green Bay Packers uh in the right direction. The one mistake, and he admitted it, was he gave the general managership to the head coach when Mike Sherman was here, and uh he he always said, Oh, I couldn't bring in someone over Mike's head, but Mike Sherman wasn't wasn't qualified to do both those jobs at the same time. And I'm not saying Mike Sherman was a bad coach. I I he was not qualified to do both those jobs at the same time, and probably wasn't qualified to be a general manager. But uh, and Bob admit, he said I was kind of in a box there and I and I didn't make the right call. But man, what a what a great guy. And so many great moves, and I probably forgot a few that that really put this franchise, really put this franchise right where it is, where it's on the road to where it is today.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Oh, see, one of the things I talked about in the open of the show, being critical of the Jets and or the Raiders andor franchises and programs that have leadership that is not proven to be successful. And and when you bring up Bob Harlan, I equate it to Donna Shalela, Pat Richter, Barry Alvarez. And to me, that's what Bob Harlan did with Ron Wolf and then the hirings that went on. It's also a kid.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

And Mike Bulgran was very significant.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

Sure, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

I also the 49ers were uh were the elite organization in the NFL at that time, considered to be the most well-run organization. And uh uh and Mike brought all of the 49ers, he brought their manuals, their road trip manuals and everything, playbook, right to the Packers.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

So you're right, which was akin to what Barry did with Wisconsin football. He had had he was he was with Lou Holtz. He just won a national championship, and he brought a winning plan and attitude to the program. I mean, I I I think of the same thing in uh with Attenasio and the Milwaukee Brewers. He has put the right people in place and then given them some of the tools, not as many financial tools as some fans would like, but he gave them the tools with David Stearns and now with Matt Arnold to hire the right people and do the right things and do it through scouting department. And I think all three uh have a lot of parallels, and that's why I bring it up when we talk about Bob Harlan, because it matters.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

That's that's a that's a good point. There are some parallels there. There's uh I thought David Stearns uh had did things that the Brewers are are benefiting from, you know, when he what is it, 11 years, 12 years since he was hired, whatever. Uh he put them on the right path, but it was a new owner, Atanasio, who brought him in. And I don't think, I mean, uh Doug Melvin, I thought did a pretty decent job too.

SPEAKER_04 33:59

He did.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

Uh they got to the they got to the playoffs in 08, and uh hey, all the credit in the world goes to Doug Melvin for putting that little stretch together where they were a pretty good team, eight and eleven. And uh uh and but all that came after Atanasio got there. So he also did a very similar thing with all three general managers that he had. He he gave them uh excellent amount of money, but he said, you know, do what you do. Um, I'm not gonna get too involved here. Uh and then, you know, in some cases they hired some, well, they really hired, I thought Council was an excellent manager, and the guy there now is an excellent manager. Um, so yeah, there's there's definitely some parallels. And and and let me say this what uh Barry Alvarez had great support from above. Okay, yeah, that was critical. Mike Holmgren had great support from above. Mike McCarthy had great support from above, and that was critical to winning Rose Bowls, Super Bowls, whatever. Uh uh, you have to have that. And and you know, with the proper amount of meddling, you know, I mean, owners have a tough mind to walk. And you know, it's their baby, but it seems to me when owners get the more owners get involved, the less success you have, because that's not their area of expertise. So, but there are there definitely are some parallels. The Brewers have had a great run. Uh, they haven't capped it off with a with a World Series yet, which you would certainly like to see. And you know, you can say the Packers probably should have one or two more Super Bowls over the last 25 years. You'd probably be right. Um, but it's hard to win Super Bowls, it's hard to win national championships, it's hard to win the World Series, uh, especially when you're not necessarily dealing right from the top of the deck in terms of resources. So yeah, that's a that's a very apt comparison. And I think Bob Harlan started all that. I I think I think I'm with you. Uh hiring of Ron Wolfe and the changing of the structure, because prior to uh Ron Wolf being coming on, Tom Bratz and Lindy and Fani had equal say, the GM and the coach. And it didn't it didn't work. It didn't work. Lindy was a more persuasive man than Tom Bratz, and I thought Tom Bratz was a better football man than Lindy Infani, and it just didn't work.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

Oh, T, let me let me bring into the UW a program that you you have uh covered and opined about for a long time, front and center. Um let's go, let's you talk about resources. You know, uh David Stearns was given resources. Uh the Green Bay Packers, their their GMs and head coaches have been given resources. Let me ask you about what has not gone well with Wisconsin football over the last three years. And we can go back and and I don't want to, but you can go back and relitigate um the decision after Paul Chris to Jim Leonard to Luke Fickle. But part of the college landscape that we don't know from a transparent standpoint is what you dedicate financially to your programs, not in how much you pay your coaches, but in how much you pay to uh acquire and retain your football players in this case. What do we know or maybe not know about why Wisconsin football hasn't been as successful the last three years and how it is they're trying to change that model going into the 2026 season?

SPEAKER_03 37:41

Do you want me to come back next week and we'll do an entire show to that?

SPEAKER_02 37:46

It is it is uh an open-ended long conversation, but uh you know, thumbnail.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

And much of what's factored into this is the rapidly changing landscape of college sports. But I thought mistakes were made at the very beginning. I I'm a firm believer that at Wisconsin it's a little different institution than than a lot, a lot of of schools. And it seems to me Wisconsin's always better off when it has when it hires people who know the lay of the land. And I I'll go to my grave saying that. Okay. Or and in Barry's case, when Barry was hired, he had a really good understanding of Wisconsin because he coached at Iowa for all those years and he played at Nebraska against Wisconsin. He knew how Wisconsin won and why Wisconsin won. And and then he had his great background from Hayden Fry to Lou Holtz to Yeah, and and uh so he he he had a better understanding. What surprised me about the Luke Fickel hire is that Luke Fickle did not show, in my mind, a great understanding of how Wisconsin won. This is a guy who grew up in Columbus, Ohio, watching the Buckeyes, played against Wisconsin for the Buckeyes, coached against Wisconsin at Ohio State for the Buckeyes. How did he not know what Wisconsin won? How could you walk in, how could you watch Wisconsin over all those years and put in an air aid offense? I just, I mean, like I said, there was there were some really bad mistakes I thought made right from the start. And Wisconsin uh strayed too far from what makes Wisconsin win. And and and you know, hey, look was Luke Fickle, he's a good coach, he had success. He's a he's a good coach. But the lack of understanding, either from him or his boss, Chris McIntosh, of what makes Wisconsin tick. And then another early indicator was recruiting. Uh the wall built around the state was something we heard since the day Barry Alvarez got here till the day Paul Chris left. And then uh all of a sudden uh Luke Fickle seemed to think that he was going to go elsewhere to get players. And now, recently, this in the last three months, he's been talking about the need to recruit. Well, some of us may have been saying, oops, a while back from the beginning. He was passing or missing on on uh on good state players, which have always been the backbone of this operation. I mean, they they simply have, but and then I uh but uh a complicating factor was NIL and and the transfer portal. Um and it put developmental programs like Wisconsin, it put them in a bind because they had to change some of the some of the way they operated. There's no question. And I thought Wisconsin was behind an NIL, behind some other schools. I don't think there's any question about that. I'm not sure they uh had the or displayed the foresight to to anticipate the landscape.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Yeah, that's a miss, isn't it? I mean, to me, it's it's just a miss.

SPEAKER_03 40:57

It's just a miss. And all of a sudden, what's it, Luke Fickel, after his third season, now they're throwing all this money into it. Well, other teams, other programs have been throwing that money into it for two or three years now. And Wisconsin's just getting on board. Um it appears with the large transfer class they have that they do have more money, that that wasn't an idle, idle promise, that they're they're operating with more of a of a uh operating more like some of their brethren in the Big Ten, let's put it that way. Now, are they gonna ever have as much money to spend as Michigan and Ohio State? No, it's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

What was what was your reaction when Kellner kind of made the radio tour last uh November and said we're bottom third in player spending in the Big Ten, and next year we're gonna be top third. You you recall he did I mean he did the radio car wash uh of interviews last November. Uh he's front and center, he's the lead booster. What was your reaction? What is your reaction?

SPEAKER_03 41:57

Ted was sent out to give that message, and you know, uh we all know Ted, he's a really good guy, and uh, but you know, he's he he's he has a big stick around that athletic department. He he's a big donor, and uh fortunately uh he has a very good understanding of sports, you know. He he played basketball at Wisconsin, so um uh I I mean I I think he's right, and I think that was the problem, and I think they sent him out to spread that message that we have identified a major problem and we're going to work to correct it, which is exactly what they should have done. And yeah, my my point is they should have done it two or three years earlier, but uh and they finally came around to they finally came around to uh we better take this NIL and transfer portal business seriously. They finally um came around to we better still develop talent here and recruit the state kids and develop state kids. And they they've kind of come around to all this stuff that in my mind they probably should have been on right from the get-go, no matter who they hired as coach.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Right. Let let me shift to the other one, the one that's going on right now. Greg Gard and Wisconsin basketball with a tremendous finish, and and you know, their win at Michigan, their win at Illinois, their win at Purdue, the the blowout win at home against Michigan State. Those kind of uh kick out make us lose the memory of some of the bad ones, the losing against Indiana, the USC loss, the the on the road at Oregon loss. But this team, OT, and the transformation that Greg Gard has led, and he's had help, but but he's make no mistakes, he's the head coach. What they have done and how they've reinvented themselves is one of the great stories in Wisconsin uh basketball history, how this program went from who they were five years ago offensively in the thing and keeping up, and what they've done. And they sort of did it, um. Independently. It was Greg that went out and got the money. He and his assistant coaches, because they weren't given the money to go spend it. They had to go raise their own, but they brought in the right guys. And AJ Strawberry was he the right guy. He might have been the transformational guy. But then John Tanja and now Nick Boyd and the way they've recruited, it's a really impressive go, what Greg Guard has put together. Now a lot of people will judge what happens next week, not this week, but what happens next week. Can they get to the following? Um, just your view on what Guard and this program has done.

SPEAKER_03 44:36

I I think this. I think the pivot he made from the way this program operated and operated very successfully for a long period of time. Uh, I even go back to Dick Bennett, and it was a defense-based system. It was a develop, it was a developmental program, it went four fourth and fifth-year players, and it it operated that way under Dick Bennett, it operated certainly under Bo Ryan and Greg Guard for the first uh two-thirds of Greg Guard's tenure, it operated that way. And then, but to to be able to pivot from that and still maintain and still be a winning program and and do the things they have done, um, I just think it's phenomenal. I really do. I I I I can't stress how hard that that is, and especially in college sports. In high school, you know, where you can't recruit, or theoretically, you can't recruit. Yeah, you know, you have to deal with what's sometimes you're gonna get a team. Uh I remember Jerry Pettigue had a state championship team that had four guys, 6'5 or taller. He also had a state championship team that didn't have a guy over 6'2, and he totally changed the way he played. That's good, that's just good coaching. I think it happened, it's having a little bigger scale uh in in college sports. And but Greg Gard has really pivoted, and and you know, we're all used to watching this great defensive team and working the ball on offense. And uh, we all learned what Bo considered a definition of a good shot selection, a good shot selection, and no turnovers and all that business. We're all kind of conditioned to it. And sometimes you see some of these shots go up and you cringe a little bit, or you see somebody break down the lane through the middle of the defense uh for a for a layup or a dunk, and there's no help, and you you you cringe a little bit. Tell me you don't, because I know I sometimes I laugh and think, man, I'd like to be sitting with Bo at Palm Springs and see his reaction to it to a 25-foot three-point shot. Yeah. But uh, but you know, to guard's credit, and and and Greg has said this in numerous press conferences, you know, I have to give him some leeway. I have to give him some latitude. And this is a program that for 20 more than 20 years, uh, since Bo got there, didn't didn't give that kind of latitude. Right. If if if uh if uh Sam Decker got on a heater and took a heat check shot, he'd be sitting over on the bench, even no matter how hot he was. But um there was not a lot of latitude in Leeway given. And now all of a sudden there is. And that's just uh to me, in my mind, that's great coaching. And I think they've uh shrewdly recruited to that to that style of play. And I also give a lot of credit to the staff, and and I I'll even include the departed Kirk Penny in that, who who gave them some some offensive direction uh that really I think I think helped the program. And the current staff, uh uh, I think they do a great job. Um, I just uh it's it's just amazing. Uh, you know, the stentions Oregon loss is still hanging. They'd be a four seed if they hadn't lost that. I I'm convinced of that. They're probably gonna end up a six. But I mean, that's really if you think about it, their only bad loss. The other low, uh, low low-rated team they lost to is USC. But USC was a high-rated team when they played them, and then they lost their best player for all kinds of reasons, apparently. Um, and and and they've gone down the tubes. So that hasn't helped Wisconsin. But but by and large, uh the the losses were understandable. The the the weird thing about the loss, some of the losses this year was the margin of the loss. Ohio State uh they got over raced a couple of times, and that's that just doesn't happen. It hasn't happened. But uh three point when you live in by die by the three-point shot, I think there's a lot more volatility in what goes on than um than we're used to seeing.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Yeah, and and then the you know, the other programming state, um, they've got uh their own cross to bear right now at Marquette. And Shaka has avoided the transfer portal, and maybe uh they're paying a price on that, and they're gonna have to adapt. And listen, college athletics is all about adaptation uh in what's happened in the last five years. You uh adjust or you're gone, and Marquette's gonna be gone from the tournament, obviously, but they're gonna have to adapt and adjust in what they do rolling forward.

SPEAKER_03 49:22

When I think of Shaka Smart, who I think is a good coach, and I think he's a great fit for Marquette, and I've said that all along. Uh, he's trying to take the high road. You know, I want, I want to do it the way it should be done or used to be done, and probably still should be done in college sports. I I give him all the credit in the world for that. I just don't want to see him go down the tubes uh hanging on to that belief when the reality is I look at Clemson and Davos Dabo Swinney. Okay, look at him. Yes, you know, they used to own the ACC, and now they're losing to Duke and Wake Forest and everybody else. Um, and and because he decided that he was gonna take the high road, and I applaud him for doing that. I applaud Shaka for trying to do that at Marquette, but uh I just hope it doesn't cost him in the end. And I mean, I guess I would have to say that this year that uh they're gonna see the light, he's gonna see the light, that he has to participate some. And you don't have to jump in with both feet, but you have to participate some and and uh and and and get a little better talent than than what he has. It was interesting that they beat UConn, but UConn's been all over the map this year. As as for as much talent as they have, I'm not sure they're a uh a great uh uh a great coaching job this year by a guy who just coming off a couple national titles, but yeah. But uh uh anyway, I I I mean I think Shock Smart can make it work at Marquette. Yeah, and but I just think he has to change what he's doing. And some of his recent comments indicate that maybe he's come around to that way of thinking.

SPEAKER_02 51:13

Yeah, you see that Darren said, Oh, come on, Tom, University of Kimberley up here in the valley has recruited for years. Yeah, I listen, we we've all known over the course of time that high schools have gone out and tried to entice uh a family to uh to open enroll or to come on the you know, if you live in Kacon and just move over, uh you know, buy a house in Kimberly.

SPEAKER_03 51:38

Well, well, open enrollment has changed everything. Oh heck yeah. I mean, you know, uh you know you you couldn't get into Xavier and Appleton, so you had to exactly right. Right? But yeah, everybody always accused the private schools of of uh recruiting. But I've got news for you in in in the big cities and in other places, the public schools, Milwaukee, for instance, for years, uh but open enrollment changed that. And he was kids started moving around to public schools just as much as uh as uh as they did in private schools. I had I had a friend who went to who went to Milwaukee to coach at one of the big uh private high schools in Milwaukee, and he said, and this was years ago, uh like 30 years ago, and he said, I knew the recruiting among the private schools was gonna be bad down here. He said, But I go to a seventh grade game, and the coach from Vincent, the coach from Bayview, the coach, the coach from Milwaukee, Washington, the coach from Milwaukee, Hamilton would all be there watching a seventh grade game. So uh it it's you know, that's just it's almost like an it's an accepted fact now in in high school sports.

SPEAKER_02 52:52

Yeah, yeah. Oh, so you good? I mean, i life is good for you. I and and uh don't think you I mean you listen, nobody grinded.

SPEAKER_03 53:00

I just got back from three weeks in Hawaii. How do you think I am?

SPEAKER_02 53:06

Uh jealous of that. Uh fantastic. And uh listen, it it's great to visit with you. I appreciate you taking time. This is a pretty long conversation we've had today. Well we both figured it out technically, which is, I mean, I would bet against that.

SPEAKER_03 53:21

That was a real hit and miss on my end, though, I have to tell you.

SPEAKER_02 53:24

No, we're we're we're good, and and I would love to do it again. I appreciate you. Uh uh I always have with your work and uh and a friendship as well. Thanks for being here and doing this with me today, and and I hope we get to do it again soon.

SPEAKER_03 53:39

All right, Mike. Good luck with the with the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 53:42

Appreciate it. Thank you, Tom. Tom Oates uh joining us on the program. And listen, that's kind of cool for me. Um I I've talked with Oatesy on my radio show a lot over a long period of time. Uh but Tom, you know, he he left on his terms. Uh I didn't get to leave on my terms. One of Tom's colleagues, um, Mike Lucas, didn't get to leave on his terms. Um I love his perspective. He's done it all. Covering the Packers as he did for all those years, I was talking about the grind that that he would do because he was always on site for the Packer game, but he was almost, almost always on site for the Badger game. So that meant, you know, if Wisconsin was playing at Penn State and the Packers were playing the the next day in Houston, uh you got to find a way to get from there to there commercial, not on a charter. So uh I appreciate the the uh the work that Tom has done all these years. We we had a kind of a uh natural connection because we're both from Appleton, but he brought it up. He went to Xavier, I went to East. Um just uh fantastic dude, and his work has been uh well received for a very, very, very long time. And in the industry, super well respected, but also by the organizations. And sometimes that's not easy when you're a columnist because you're gonna write and say things that sometimes an organization doesn't like. That'll be a conversation that we have at some point down the road. But uh really good stuff, and I appreciate him doing it. Uh, let me give you an update on what's going on tomorrow on the I Love Mondays Thursday edition, which is always we've only done it once, but it's always Vinny Rettino. He will join us at length tomorrow in his time here, brought to you by Pottawatomie Sportsbook and Casino. I look forward to that. And when he joins us tomorrow, we we will be exactly two weeks from opening day at American Family Field when the White Sox come to Milwaukee to open the 2026 season. All right, now uh we work on these things to see if we can exit properly. So let me do this on the front end and again thank our sponsors. From our presenting sponsors, M3 Insurance, that's M3INS.com and neuroscience. And with neuroscience, go to neurosciencegroup.com and our partner sponsors, Pottawatomi Sportsbook and Casino, and Habish, Habish and Rotier. All of them are a big part of what we do. Uh, I appreciate your support of the show, but with that, we also appreciate your support of our sponsors. So the process of exiting the show now gets underway. There are things I have to do. Um, let me start with this on the end and this on the end.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

I love Mondays with Mike Heller.

SPEAKER_02 56:59

And tell you that we will be back in tomorrow and doing it again. Vinny Rettino joins us Thursdays on the program. Thanks for being with us today and for again tuning in and supporting I Love Mondays with Mike Heller, the podcast.