I Love Mondays-Ep63, May 28, 2026

An update on the Packers and Josh Jacobs. The Brewers amazing run continues, now leading the NL Central by 4-1/2 games.  Plus Vinny Rottino takes us through the sign stealing controversy withe the Brewers and Cardinals.  Enjoy

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

I love Mondays with Mike Heller.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Broadcasting live from an undisclosed bunker in the Badger State. This is I Love Mondays with Mike Heller. Powered by determination and a little bit of duct tape. Here's your host, Mike Heller.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

So here we go on an I Love Thursday. That's not what it's called, but you know, we love Thursdays when the Brewers have an off day after winning a series, sweeping the Cardinals. That is the storyline for us today. However, as we get underway on a Thursday that will feature Vinny Rettino from Brewers TV, uh brought to you by Pottawatomi Sportsbook and Casino Bet Above the Rest, we're going to begin in a moment with a Packers and Josh Jacobs update. That is the number one story as it plays. And it's it's it's both uh a legal story and a football story. And I mentioned this yesterday on the show that we're gonna make it a football story as much as possible, not to do any disservice to the legal situation that is at play and the seriousness of it. But we talk about the sports impact here. We talk about our teams and the impact on the Green Bay Packers is gonna be what we spend most of the time talking about, understanding the gravity of the legal scenario that's playing out, and not to diminish in any way, shape, or form the importance of that side of the equation. It's just I we don't we're not talking the legal system here. We're talking about teams, and uh so that that is part of the conversation. So uh we'll we'll go through a little bit of this um because James says good morning, Mike, on a beautiful Thursday. And it is a beautiful Thursday. We'll have a great patio night tonight at Red and White Wine Bar and Bourbon Bar, Wine and Bourbon Bar in Wana Key on Main Street. We have our first patio old-fashioned Thursday. That means we're not a cocktail bar almost ever, except on Thursdays when we do old-fashioned Thursday. We'll have a uh cheese raffle tonight that will go towards um a charitable donation. And we've got live music on the patio, and we're making old-fashions. It's a fun night. Yeah. So if you're in you know the Madison, Wana Key area, south central Wisconsin, you could road trip. Come on down. Uh, we'll do that, you know, all evening long. We we open at four, but that event begins shortly after six o'clock. Uh so yeah, James, it is a beautiful Thursday. And Mike, uh, good morning, all and a brilliant sunshiny day that we have here getting a little warmer into the weekend as well. So all of that is good. Let me uh touch base on the storyline as it is in Green Bay. So I'm gonna just read this a little bit because it's easier for me to go through that process. This from Rob Domowski, Packers running back, Josh Jacobs, was released from jail Wednesday after his arrest on several domestic violence charges pending further investigation. The Brown County District's Attorney Office announced that the investigation remains open and ongoing. Quote, after reviewing the available evidence in this case, the Brown County District Attorney's Office is not yet prepared to make a formal charging decision. District Attorney David L. Lacy said in a statement quote, our office has requested additional investigation, as there is reason to believe that additional evidence may exist that would impact whether criminal charges are appropriate and what charges would be issued. Mr. Jacobs will be released from custody at this time. This was yesterday, and a final charging decision will be made by that office at a later date. Jacobs is 28. He was booked Tuesday. Uh, according to Brown County Jail Records, um, he was released yesterday. His attorneys put out this release: quote, we are extremely pleased that Josh has been released from custody and that no criminal charges have been filed against him. Attorneys David Chesnoff and Richard Sconefield and Clarence Ducock said in a statement Wednesday, as we previously stated, quote, we encourage everyone to keep an open mind while the matter is fully reviewed. We remain confident that once all the evidence is gathered and evaluated, it will confirm that no charges should be brought against Josh in the future, end quote. So uh one note from the from the line at the district attorney's office, and that is that our office has requested additional information, additional investigation, pardon me, as there is reason to believe that additional evidence may exist that would impact whether criminal charges are appropriate and what they would be issued. So they have reason to believe that additional evidence may change how this proceeding moves forward. I I I'm not gonna play, I'm not gonna play pretend on this that I that I know what direction this is going to go, but that line is to me a little bit telling. Uh I I've heard others say, and this is accurate, that one of the storylines that will be at play here is that once you're accused of something, the court of public opinion will always be in that corner. So I don't know that Josh Jacobs' position in the public eye will dramatically change by however this rolls forward. But from an NFL standpoint, because if they they will investigate this on their own as the Packers will, the NFL has a policy with domestic abuse charges in their investigation, regardless of legal outcome, that there's a minimum six game suspension if they deem this to be worthy. Doesn't matter what the legal system does, the NFL's investigation, if it yields the result that uh that there was a domestic violence scenario that played itself out, Josh Jacobs would be suspended for at least six games. So again, way too early in this process to understand what happened and how it will impact. I know from a court of public opinion, Josh Jacobs uh will be viewed differently by uh by the general public as it rolls forward. From a Green Bay Packers standpoint, they're gonna they have been doing their due diligence since they probably first became aware of the scenario on Monday and an arrest on Tuesday. And they have to do football-related stuff. The Packers don't have depth at the running back position. And if Josh Jacobs is not available for any period of time, uh the Packers are in significant need to go out and get somebody that can play the position at a very high level. Their offense is predicated on him. All right, one other note before I get into um into a deeper discussion on the Brewers. I'm gonna stay on the Packers for a moment. So I was thinking about this on our long drive back. I was thinking about how we have viewed the quarterback position and how we view it in the NFC North, in particular with Caleb Williams, who is obviously a young talent in Chicago, and then compare that to Jordan Love and compared both essentially to a first ballot Hall of Famer who is now on a retirement tour with the Pittsburgh Steelers and Aaron Rodgers. So let me go. These are base statistics. Okay. So bear with me on this, but I don't think it's very complicated. It is a simple comparison of their first two years as starting quarterbacks. Now, the difference is that Rogers sat for three, Love sat for three, and Caleb Williams did not. First two years as a starting quarterback, Aaron Rodgers combined in those two years, completed 64% of his throws. Jordan Love, first two years, 63.7. It's a half a full percentage point, one half a percentage point below. And three points below that is Caleb Williams at 60.3. So again, Rogers, first two years, completion percentage, 64.2%. Jordan Love, 63.7, and Caleb Williams 60.3 completion percentage. Yards, which I don't love because it's a function of uh how you have your passing attacks structured in your offense, how much you rely on running game, things like that. But in the first two years, Aaron Rodgers averaged 265 yards per game, 265 throwing yards per game. In the same two first two years for Jordan Love as a starter, 235.9. So roughly 25 yards per game lower. And Caleb Williams, 220 yards per game. So again, Rogers 265, first two years, 265 passing yards per game. Jordan Love, first two years, 236 yards per game. And Caleb Williams, 220 yards per game. Touchdowns to interceptions, and again, a function sometimes of how you run your offense in the red zone. Do you you rely on a ground game to get it in? Do you have receivers that are good in the red zone? Well, these things come into play. But touchdowns to interceptions, uh, all three have valued the football. The interception totals continue to lower. So Aaron Rodgers, first two years as a starter, 58 touchdowns. That's the most of the group, 20 interceptions, that's in the middle. 58 and 20 for Aaron Rodgers, first two years as a starter. Jordan Love, 57 and 22, almost identical to Aaron Rodgers. Almost identical. Uh, and both played 32 games in the first two years. So Rodgers, 58 touchdowns, love 57 touchdowns. Rodgers, 20 interceptions, love 22. Caleb Williams, first two years, 47 touchdowns. So 10 or 11 below Rodgers, 10 below Love, but his interceptions are low at 13. He's thrown just 13 picks. Part of that is when a play breaks down in Caleb Williams' world, he runs. When play breaks down, Jordan Love is not a runner, doesn't run very much. Rodgers ran a little bit more, but again, not very much. And then rating, if you believe in quarterback rating, the average rating for Rogers in his first two years as a starter was 98.5. The average quarterback rating for Jordan Love in his first two years as a starter, 96.4, and Caleb Williams 89. That is not a prediction of who they will be as they roll forward. I'm just saying in the first two years of play that Jordan Love and Aaron Rodgers both better than Caleb Williams. Caleb Williams came on last year, especially late in games, but his full game performance still leaves something to be desired. We are highlighting, we are a highlight culture. Our sporting fandom is built on highlights, which makes us misremember how a player played because we see the highlights and go, oh my God, he was great. We look at last year's highlights at Caleb Williams, and you would think that he's the best quarterback in the NFL. But those were highlights. And at his highlight best, he's amazing. At his every play, normal, there is room for growth quite a bit. And that'll be the charge for Ben Johnson in Chicago and for Caleb Williams to take that step. We already know that there's greatness there. And it's one of the things that I think is a separator that Jordan Love has been very consistently good. Like he is steady. Less highlights from him, but steady. And I like that part of it. I've said this before, I'll say it again. If I if you told me, hey, pick your quarterback that you want to build around for the next five years, I would pick Caleb Williams over Jordan Love because the ceiling is higher. Now tell me, you got the next five games to play. Which quarterback do you want? I'll take Jordan Love because I think I'm going to get a consistent, really good performance. There's room for growth on Love's side too, but I would take the ceiling on Caleb Williams because if you're gonna, if you're gonna gamble on futures, you would take the one with the greatest return. So just I wanted to point that out. When you're talking about quarterback play, I don't want people to give Caleb Williams too much credit just by looking at the highlights. And I don't want people to lose sight of the idea that through the first two years as starters, that Jordan Love is ahead of where Caleb Williams is. Jordan Love, after two years as a starter, just a year ago, was ahead of where Caleb Williams is right now, statistically. I think those things end up being kind of important to point out when we're talking about how this uh how this conversation will play out. We'll get to it obviously in September when they start playing games, but I wanted to bring that up. Uh let me uh thank our sponsors as we roll through and uh and welcome in our first guest or our guest today, Vinny Rettino. We are presented by one community bank, whether you're a first-time homebuyer looking to purchase or build a new home or ready to refinance your existing mortgage. 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So uh it's important to us there. Let's bring Vinny Rutino into the program uh from Brewers TV. Vinny, good morning. How are you? I'm doing great, Mike. How are you doing? That was a great uh little uh deal that you just had over the last little bit with uh Brewers games. They they have played, I'm running out of superlatives with them, but they're impressive in just about every way you want to look at them. And this series against the Cardinals had it all. It had great pitching, timely hitting, and controversy of which we'll get into in a minute. But let's talk about the good things from the Brewers standpoint. What are you seeing maybe even now that's different than when we talked a week ago or two weeks ago because it's getting better?

SPEAKER_03 19:02

Well, the thing that's so impressive, Mike, is the fact that these young players, not only the guys that are just starting to establish themselves at the big league level, but the ones that are already established at the big league level, yeah, they're taking jumps themselves. So that's that's what's impressive to me is the fact that these kids, and they are kids, it's a it's a team full of kids, especially on the position player side of things, especially on the uh the starting pitching side of things, they're taking these big steps forward. And this team is really, really good now. Uh I mean, I mean, Mike, they're they're gonna run away with Asnel Central, and I say that confidently. Uh, you know, it's not a hot take. I mean, especially after watching what they did to the St. Louis Cardinals, it was fun to watch because I can't stand St. Louis, the St. Louis Cardinals, and I can't stand their fans. I'm just I mean, it's like they they just totally steamrolled them, they dominated them. I know that yesterday's game, Dustin May, that was his best performance of his entire life, and that's what probably the St. Louis Cardinals are expecting from him, although he had a five ERA last year. They sent him on a one-year two $12.5 million deal, and he pitched out of his mind yesterday. He pitched with some emotion because there was some controversy that, like you said, we're gonna get into. But and the Brewers ended up still winning that game. That's what they do. They they hang around, and then because they're pitching and defense is so good, they're in every single game. They hold teams down in terms of their runs, so the run prevention unit's unbelievable, and then they they go ahead and then just they steal it from them. That was such a uh it was a sweet and satisfying victory knowing that you did it to the St. Louis Cardinals.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Yeah, um my guy Zach points this out. Let's go here a little bit. The ability to win in all different ways is impressive. Shootouts, barn burners, they're able to do it all. And and yesterday was one of those great examples. Uh, they don't have anything going. It's not for lack of effort, but but May was so good yesterday. The Brewers don't have a hit. He makes a uh a mistake, uh uh, I think it was a slider, right over the heart of the plate that Garrett Mitchell um, you know, flips out there and drives it to the gap in left center. It's a bad defensive play in left field. Um, a good left fielder makes the play. He is not a good left fielder. I wondered about Ollie Marmel in that situation when you're in a one-run game that they shouldn't have made, a defensive replacement with only three offensive outs to work and you know six defensive outs to get. I thought that was a mistake, but that is another way because on the very next hitter, St. Louis made another mistake on a bunt, and the Brews didn't take advantage until they got two outs. But when they got two outs, they took full advantage, and the Cardinals made three mistakes in the inning because Mason Wynn committed an error that put the Brew ahead.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

And that's what that's what's impressive. So there's a subtle momentum. There's momentum that happens in baseball, right? It is subtle, and so you're you're right. So what the Brewers got to a fur good point on the Ollie. Marmel mistake. I love pointing out Ali Marmal mistake. I love pointing them out because you're right. I you know that Torres is was an infielder with the Brewers. In fact, he was a catcher even in the brewer system. He was in the brewer system way back in 2015 or 16. And so the the the double, then the bunt. That is a Nolan Gorman. That is a total blunder. That's a mental mistake. And I know Levering pointed it out that it was also Dustin May. Dustin May kind of gave up on the play. That was very, very strange.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yeah, I just I just wondered you understand the plays. It looks like Nolan Gorman is he's straddling the cut out of the grass as though he's either supposed to come in or he's faking coming in so they can maybe get the out at third. Did you have a sense as to whether the play was called for him to stay at third or read the bunt and play it if it's down the line?

SPEAKER_03 22:51

So the only time that you don't go and get that baseball is if it's bunted right back to the pitch. Now the pitcher should be going towards the third baseline because that's going to be his responsibility, part of his responsibility, okay. But yes, if he can get that bunt and throw the runner out at third, you got to have him by a long shot. Remember, it's a tag play, that's not a force. Correct. So you're taught as a third baseman to go ahead, and if that angle is towards you and it's a good butt, you go get it because you need to get the out. So that was a blunder on both their parts. And but you're right. So the fact that the Brewers they almost didn't capitalize on getting a run. Right. Because you had the punch out to Andrew, you had the the ground out to first base by Sal Freelick, then the punch out to Andrew Vaughn. So then all of a sudden, the momentum you can feel it. It's like, oh my goodness, you're gonna get out of this thing, and then and then Yelich comes through.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Brewers fans have have bitched about this for years. The contact play was not on, it was a read play with Sal Freelick at the plate, first and third, nobody out. Freelick is is the hitter, Mitchell's at third, and it's a read, not a contact. Brewers fans have hated the contact play because there is some easy out at home played on the contact, but that was a read play. I think you pointed that out in the telecast.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

It was a read. As soon as they go for the double play, right? You flip it to second, then that's when you can have Garrett Mitchell scamper home. But you don't want to make the first out at home because now you don't a sack flight doesn't get you the run. So that is a little bit of a nuanced play right there. Uh, but I thought it was the right call because now you have Andrew Vaughn pinch inning against JoJo Romero left on right. Romero's been great, threw him a nasty backdoor slider, but then again, that's where the momentum shifted. Like they're gonna get out of it, and then Yelich comes through. So, this is the many different ways that the Brewers can beat you, is because they're never out of an inning. They never feel like, okay, that guy didn't get to run home with less than two outs, so we're all gonna give up. Uh, some teams feel that way, okay. And it's not like they're consciously thinking, okay, we're all gonna give up now. But that's that's some not the Brewers. Yeah, Yelich comes through and has that huge base hit. So it's just it's just a fun brand because they're all in it together in Murph. Murph doesn't allow you to think any other way, right? So he kind of pulls you back into that mindset.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

I I always I think of this, and I didn't look up the stat in advance, but but I'm pretty sure it's true, and it was mainly true a year ago. The Brewers have more errors committed against them in games. The uh the opposing team commits more errors than I think anybody else in baseball. And and some people will think, well, they get lucky. And and you and I like gonna look and shake our heads at that because it that is because Milwaukee is fundamentally strong and so fast on the bases, and what they do puts pressure on defense. That's a great defensive shortstop in Mason win. That ball was smoked, and it got him in the heel of the glove, and he never had it. That's a significant play in the inning, but we just chronicled three of them. Left fielder missed judge, and that ball's well hit as well, but a good left fielder makes that play. He took a flat route, he needed to be going back. He had a miss read. He's not a great offfielder. Mistake number one, mistake number two, who's gonna take the bunt? Nobody takes the bunt. Mistake number three, Mason win, a great defensive shortstop, makes an error. Those things aren't by happenstance. Great teams that do what the Brewers do with speed force errors out of their opponents.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

Think about so think about if okay, I'm gonna do this from the the pitcher's perspective. Okay, so you have a you have two outs in an inning, you get a quick two outs, and all of a sudden you have to face Sal Freelick with an eight-pitch, nine pitch at bat. He ends up on first base with a catcher interference. Okay, it's happened five times, or he just gets an infield hit. Um, okay, so now runner on first base, and you thought you were out of the inning. The defense also thought, okay, this is gonna be a quick inning. Not the case. This is what the next guy will have a seven, eight pitch at bat. He'll walk or he'll get another infield hit, David Hamilton will get a bun hit, and all of a sudden now it starts to build the pressure on the pitcher. So so the pitcher's out there laboring after he thought he was gonna have a quick inning, and all of a sudden, because and this is how this works, I'm telling you, the defense behind a pitcher can feel the pitcher's energy. Okay, so if if you want to help a guy that you know is struggling out there now, all of a sudden went from a quick inning to now struggling with the bases loaded and two outs and the floodgates about to open, you want to make that play for him really, really badly. Okay, and so now all of a sudden a ball gets hit at an infielder and it's booted or it's rushed or it's bobbled just enough. And you just mentioned the team speed that this team has is third best in all of baseball. I think it's Phillies, then nationals, then Brewers in terms of they measure overall team speed, average team speed. So everyone up and down this lineup can run, they put the ball in play. That's why they get so much uh so much, so there's so much pressure put on defenders behind the brewers, and they they do, they create more mistakes. I wish an analytics department, I'm sure maybe they do, they would count mistakes, not just errors, but you know, mental mistakes, base running blunders, um, you know, just little things. And I wish they would count those things up. I guarantee you the brewers cause more of those than any other team in baseball against their opponent because again, it's just it's relentless, it's relentless pressure. How would you even how would you equate this to a team like let's say in the NFL um or in the NBA or college basketball shot? You know, it's a team that just is constantly in your face in basketball, just pressure defense that just is creating more errors and machines.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Yeah, there's turnovers. It's it's full court pressure. Uh with the Brewers, uh, when they are at the plate, it's full court pressure. Sometimes it's by forcing late shot clock stuff with long at bats, and sometimes it's by the full court pressure that they put on you with traps that uh force other teams into committing errors, or a catcher that can't throw out a base runner getting a great jump. Uh all of those things are the equivalent of what you're talking about, yes?

SPEAKER_03 29:09

Yeah, or like a Micah Parsons, you got to double team him, right? Uh, because of the pressure that he's creating on the quarterback, and all of a sudden there's a blown assignment. 100%. Yeah, that's exactly what the Brewers are doing. It's night in, night out, it's relentless. I mean, they don't take nights off. Um, even in this Cardinals game yesterday, you thought you actually I never thought that they were gonna lose that game, despite how well Dustin May was pitching. It it was one-nothing, and you knew that okay, where either where is the big hit gonna come from, where's the big swing, big home run, or where is the mistake coming and when is it coming on the Cardinals side? You knew it was coming and it happened in the eighth. It was it was beautiful. In fact, there was a no-hitter, and I even said on the on the call, I said, I can't wait for a bloop and a blast. I said, let's hope for a bloop and a blast, and then bring in your ebay to do another crash chop on the cardinal. I didn't say that.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Well, you were thinking, but that's what I was thinking, yeah. Uh, all right. So I had two avenues to go to next. One is um, and I'm gonna hold on the cardinals just one bit. I know you kind of led me into it, but I want to do one other thing first. I kind of in my own world, with a couple of stats, ranked the Brewers' offensive contribution from player to player. Some of this is my own personal bias, but most of it is is kind of built with um with some numbers behind it. So offensively, my number one guy is Jackson Churio. I know he's not doing everything right now, but I think the Brewers' offense flipped when he entered back into the lineup. My number two guy is a healthy Yelich. We're seeing a little bit of that now. He's gonna be, I would think, primarily, if not exclusively, a DH, which creates a dilemma. Um, but he he'd be my number two. Tarang is three, Contreras four, Jake Bowers is five, Garrett Mitchell is six, Andrew Vaughn is seventh. Okay, so I've gone through seven. It's hard to get all of those guys in the lineup on at the same time, specifically with Vaughn Bowers and Yelich, because uh two of them need to be in a you know split in first base with the other one being a DH and Yelich is your DH. So we'll get to that in a moment. But the left side of the infield is uh the conversation. This is this is where I sit. I love Joey Ortiz for his defense. I wouldn't do anything different there. You can platoon a little, I think, but I want Ortiz's glove in the lineup uh every day. And some people might not like that, but that's where I live. He's a uh a 529 OPS guy, a 195 batting average, but those numbers have been creeping north. He's been better. He's a 0.3 war, so he's still a plus war from that front. But third base is Renifo and Hamilton, and I love Hamilton as your utility player in the lineup fairly often to give somebody a day off. But we're gonna get into trade deadline conversation pretty quickly, and it seems to me that the Brewers are in a position to do a rental at third base to see if they can get production. Would you live in that world, Vinny, as we're a little less than two months out from the trade deadline?

SPEAKER_03 32:27

The only thing that I would wonder is if if that guy is going to one, play Brewers baseball, whoever, and I don't know if there's a ton of ton of names out there that could potentially be that guy. And two, is he gonna be better than let's say a jet williams or a cooper Pratt coming up? Now, now Cooper Cooper Pratt coming up would play short. He signed for eight years and he's an exceptional shortstop, but is it is it is it a situation where all of a sudden you are you know blocking, and I know it's just a rental, but you know, the the potential for Jet Williams to really do something at the big league level and help you out. I think that would be the only conversation. And then what would it cost? You know, it didn't cost much last year for Suarez to be traded back over to the Mariners. It was a it was a low cost for that. So, you know, the Brewers are not gonna give up prospects. I think it's just the you know, ones that they feel highly on, and they've got a number of them down there, so um, I it's a good question, Mike, and it's something that I'm gonna dig into a little bit more just as as we approach this thing. But yeah, I think I think I would, you know, is there a situation, Mike, where all of a sudden you make a big move for guy a guy with um more control? Well, you know, sure. You know, I I don't know if that name is Bobby Witt Jr. or what you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

I I mean I'm dreaming there, but but that's that dilemma, right? Because uh a couple of these guys are placeholders for Cooper Pratt, for Jesus Made. Uh and if you're placeholder, what what do you you know yeah, so that that does trick that up just a little bit, and then I wonder how much is there inner concern, I don't know if they would reveal it or not, about the lack of numbers from Sal Freelick. Because now we're not talking about a small sample set, we're talking about, you know, uh a 50, he's played in 51 games, he's played more games than anybody else. He's a 0.1, negative 0.1 war, 217 average, and a 590 OPS. Where's where's the concern level? Because as I talked about earlier, when you got Bowers, Vaughn, and Yelich, which you want their bats in the lineup every day, Yelich is going to be your DH. Uh, Bowers can play some left field, but if he plays left field, Churio and Garrett Mitchell belong in your outfield on a daily basis. What's the Sal Freelick conversation? Like in your head, what are you thinking that they're thinking on this?

SPEAKER_03 35:06

Well, we know how Pat Murphy thinks about this. So he loves Sal, he's an everyday player. I I agree. Like at some point, like you you thought that Sal was gonna start getting a little more of those, you know, soft base hits, find some more holes. He he still hasn't, he hasn't really found the barrel a ton as of late.

SPEAKER_04 35:25

Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

You always feel like it's around the corner with Sal, though, just because of the quality of the at-bat, the long at bat. We saw that a bunch last year. 910 pitch at bat, and all of a sudden it's a base hit up the middle. So, or but you know, what we haven't seen much of him this year is you know the ambush. Uh, every once in a while, pitchers, I think they're starting to realize what Sal does is he will ambush you if you try and get ahead ahead of him with a first pitch fast. I saw that a ton last year, end up hitting 12 home runs. It wasn't all ambush home runs last year, but he hit 12. And so you're hoping, and you're kind I'm I'm kind of in agreement here, and I and I love Sal too. At some point, there gets a level or a line of of how many at bats does it take to all of a sudden you you start to you need to see the production, you need to see some of the value here with the bats. So that's the only thing that I would be where is that? It's it's gotta be coming up soon where all of a sudden I agree. Like, does Jake Bowers then play play left while while Chirio goes over to right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

I'm gonna those conversations happen. I don't know if that they will, but um when we get this deep and you're playing a third of the major league baseball season so far, and your OPS is 590, you're hitting 217. Uh, they need they and I want it to happen because he's such a valuable entity on the field um when he's on base and when he's playing right field. The the value to him is extreme. It is, but we can have offensive production there.

SPEAKER_03 37:03

Well, it is because okay, so you're not driving in the runs, 63 RBIs this year or last year, just you know, it the production's just not there so far this year. But how many is he saving? So a run driven in is is a you know, I would even argue that a run saved in the outfield is is more valuable because that's an out runs, you know, a ball that sneaks in in front of you, misplayed and right, all of a sudden, like that snowballs into more than just one run. That's one base runner, but it would have been one out, and then that's when big it big innings happen. So, you know, you can almost argue that his defense is more valuable than the fact that he's not hitting.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

All right, let's go to this is where I wanted to be the whole time, but uh I I wanted to do due diligence about who the Brewers are and some of their conversation before we got into controversy. I don't think there's any doubt that I think it's really clear now that the whole scenario that played out with Abner Yuribe was a reaction to what was going on in the series and Ali Marmel and what he was what Marmel thinks believes he saw from the Brewer's bench, and a particular uh Vogelbach, who Marmel thinks he was sending in that there was a tell on the mound, and that that the signal was coming in from the Brewer's bench. You can steal signs. I want you to talk about this. You can steal signs, but is there an unwritten rule that says you can't relay them from the dugout? It has to happen from somebody on the field. Fill in the blanks here.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

That's a gray area, it definitely is. Mike, I'll say that if that was happening when I was playing, where a coach was kind of peeking in, maybe. So back when the catchers used to have to give finger signs, a coach could peek in at first base if he wasn't hiding his signs. You know, that's you know, poor on the catcher. But at the same time, if he was relaying the signs to the hitter at first base from the first basis coaching box, that you would take exception to that. Now you would tell your catcher to figure it out, stop giving your signs away, right? So you would take exception to that. It was a gray area. Now, back when the game was policed between the players, you would drill a guy or or pitch him up and in. So, okay, now that was all unspoken, unwritten. All right, and then the other team's like, Well, have your catcher figure out. So yeah, the game is different now. In the fact that, like, we saw the Dodgers relaying signs at second base. Mookie Betts, or or was it tiaskers was relaying signs to Tiasker Hernandez or to And Andy Paez or both, they were very demonstrative at second base. So the game is is changing in that regard. Now, are they trying to get into the head of the pitcher? Now, that's another question. So I think I think if you are if you relay signs from the bench now, I think that is a gray area, but it it also should not. Ollie needs to be smarter about how he's telling his team to take exception to that on camera, telling him, okay, be smart, pointing at his head, and then we're gonna drill you in the in the ribs if this stop if this continues. Like figure it out, Ollie. Like, that is wrong. There's cameras everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Did you see the the foul territory podcast that uh I retweeted out a segment of that last night? So the former players talking about this, and and they said kind of the same thing. If you're relaying signals, um, the the other bench is gonna say, hey, hey, we're we'll figure this out, it's on us, but you're gonna get somebody hurt doing that, you know, because that's the way baseball enforces its own rules is if you're doing something that's that's a gray area or an unwritten rule in baseball, you're gonna get somebody hurt. That's what Marmol was saying slash doing um when he points to his ribs when Yelich is at the plate, because and that's the reaction from Eurebay, and I think we all got it right on Euribe. You can't do what he did, let the manager handle that. But that's the genesis of this, and it's real. And the cardinals, uh, you know, it's a podcast, I can square if I want to, but uh uh, but I almost went F the Cardinals, but they have always played by their set of rules. Our rules, the cardinal way we do it right, you do it wrong, we set the rules. And this is another example of that, which makes me hate them just a little bit more because they set what is like Marmel is playing the holier than thou card. Part of it may be true, but you know, do it in a different way isn't that what Murphy was saying when they were talking in between innings, just mouthing over. We'll pick we'll you we will talk and get this settled down.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, don't don't like yes, the Brewers, if they were relaying signs, they should have done it in a more subtle way. Or yes, yes, but at the same time, Ollie cannot make that that uh that gesture. He can't make that gesture. That's gonna that's gonna be Yankees, right? Exactly back in the day. Oh, yeah, exactly. With Pedro Martinez, right? But and Don Zimmer. But at the but at the end of the day, um they've lost. Here's here's the thing about the Cardinals way, Mike. They've lost the license to have that. Correct. Yeah, they've lost it. Now it was annoying, we hated it in the past, but at the same time, they backed it up on the field. They did, and it was annoying as hell, right? That they were so good for so long. But now that's not a good base. That that is a decent baseball team that's playing the game okay. They're not gonna finish in second place in this division. I don't think uh, you know, there's too many holes in that lineup and in that pitching staff. You and and Ollie, you're you're not Tony LaRussa, which I hated Tony LaRussa. I'm not saying, but but I mean he had the track record, he had the wins behind him, the World Series rings behind him. So, okay, he's not you're not Tony. So stop trying to act like the Cardinals' way is a thing anymore. It's it's sorry, it's not until you guys start winning it for another decade straight, which is not gonna happen. So you can't you can't police the league anymore. You certainly cannot police the Milwaukee Brewers at American Family Field, at our home field. If you have something to say, which again was gray area that the Brewers may have tiptoed that line, do it in a different way. Talk to Murph. Don't don't come out and start shouting with Daniel Vogelbach in between, you know, in between batting practice sessions.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Yeah, weird. It's weird behavior. So many questions. All right, so. The the game changed when they went to pitchcom. But obviously there are tells either from how the catcher reaches in to send the signal, you know, on his on his uh shin on his uh catching gear where he's got that remote control like on his knee pad, or the pitcher has a tell in how he takes the sign, how he reaches into the glove. All teams are fully aware. We're not we're doing everything the same way every time. We do not want to give a tell, but my goodness, how good that must be if they're not using technology in order to get signs just by what a cat they must be getting it from the catcher at times as much the pitcher. No, yes.

SPEAKER_03 44:46

I I think I I in terms of touching the the keypad, I don't think now I haven't heard that. Um I think sometimes when catchers set up in or out, you see that you know, every once in a while William Contreras will will deke. Flip spot, yeah. I'm setting up in or I'm I want the pitch up here, and then it's a pitch down in the dirt. So I think when catchers get lazy, I think there could be a potential to relay that sign. I think what they're getting is is the the grip from the coach's box. I think I think I don't have confirmation on that. Voge, though, however, was saying we don't we're not doing that. So your pitcher in in game two, McGree, we're not relaying it. That's what he was saying. McGreavy was throwing 91, 92 mile an hour balls right down the middle. Let's let I mean it's I mean, this is uh 2026 pitching now, so that's gonna get hurt, you know. So uh they were saying that that you know Yelich Yelich had it night one against Libertor. Okay, well, that was a hanging slider as well. Sure. So, you know, and from everything I understand about Christian Yelich and how he hits, he hits off the fastball, doesn't sit pitches. So I if if Voge's adamant about saying we're not relaying pitches, I I believe him. You know, this is a this is a guy that's really um you know astute and you know takes the game, approaches with a lot of integrity. So, you know, I'll I'll ask around. I hadn't actually had an opportunity to ask around. Um, and I guess if I hear something that I'm not supposed to say, I'm not gonna say it on the podcast, but it's in it's interesting, it is very interesting. I I do think that that's how around the league, not just Brewers. Yeah, I think I think that they are looking in. If you're gonna be a guy that's not gonna hide, so they're looking in the th the in the coach's box to see what grip you're gripping, what pitch you're gripping, they can go ahead and and relay that somehow. I don't know how they would relay that. Obviously, they're not banging on trash cans anymore, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:44

So, but but I do think you former players you like on that foul territory podcast, they were saying if you're doing it in ways that are unwritten, somebody's gonna get hurt because the other team will react to those scenarios as they play out. We just some people hate unwritten rules. I typically like them, however, I'd like to kind of know what the book of unwritten rules includes on relaying signs.

SPEAKER_03 47:11

Well, you tiptoe the line until until someone gets drilled. Now, now saying someone's gonna get hurt, come on, you you drill a guy the right way, you you throw four seam fastball, aim right for his rear end, and and you drill him.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

I mean, and that hurts, but it's not going to typically cause an injury.

SPEAKER_03 47:30

Keep it below the head, keep it below the head, and and okay, that's how you police it. And if you want to retaliate, then okay, then there's a brawl, which again, I I do like that drama that's played out in the game of baseball as well. But if you are gonna be obvious, Devin Williams used to tip every single time that he threw his changeup, he probably still does, still can't figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

And we saw that against the Mets. I mean, they it ended the Brewer's season that uh because it was obvious that the Mets in the ninth inning there knew what pitches were coming because they were sitting on pitches that are everybody swings at.

SPEAKER_03 48:05

And I and I love those guys on foul territory, they do a great job, uh, especially uh you know AJ, I enjoy listening to, and Eric Kratzy's phenomenal and some of the other guys. But I I disagree with the sentiment that if you I would say tiptoe that line of unwritten rules, and if someone's gonna get thrown at, throw at them the right way and then move on. Like that's just part of the game, it has been part of the game for 150 years. So it's definitely unwritten, it's that gray area, but the game has a way of policing itself. I just hated the way that Ollie Marmal was going about his approach to the whole situation.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Well, uh, you've seen the Cardinals five times, you're gonna see them eight more times, including a makeup of of a rain out in St. Louis. Uh, so there'll be this will come up again uh when you see them again. It was different when you were playing them 19 times, right? Right, because then it was gonna live and breathe through the entire season. Now at 13, it's certainly a a little bit less. Um, let's talk about what is going on on the the road trip. And you and I haven't had a chance to visit, but those two pitchers that go back to back one and two in the rotation for the Brewers, Miz and Harrison, it's it's um it's so it's it it is it's so impressive what they have done. They do it in different ways, and I it's a lovely scenario to go right-handed with Miz and living it 103, and then you follow up the next day and and you go left side, and it's a two-pitch combo, and just it's lights out. I run out of ways to describe how good they have been.

SPEAKER_03 49:40

Well, Mike, what it does do is it it firmly places the Milwaukee Brewers in a World Series conversation, those two guys. It really does. I mean, you who was their who was their ace last year? I mean, I know it was Freddie Peralta, but Freddie would get through five innings, uh, 110 pitches, you know what I mean? And it was a coin flip whether or not he was gonna give up a three-run home run. And you know, he was he was awesome. I'm not taking anything away from what Freddie Peralta did. But were you just like, yes, we have Freddie on the mound in game one in the playoffs? Like you were like, okay, we got to score some runs here, and we gotta have our best bullpen arms ready and ready to fire, ready to go. Like now with Jacob Mizarowski, what he's doing, he's gonna if he keeps this up, he's gonna win the Cy Young and he's gonna win it handily. He's gonna go. I mean, you cannot hit Jacob Mizerowski with what he's doing, you cannot even square him up. If you get a hit off him, it's because he puts it in one perfect spot that you were looking for it and absolutely cheating and selling out for the fastball because it's 103. Yeah, that's the only way you're gonna square him up and put a barrel on the baseball. He's that dominant. I've never seen anything like it from a starting pitcher. So, what he's doing is like, okay, he keeps this up, keeps going on this role, and it's been five starts in a row now. Yeah, then then all of a sudden, like game one, you have to face Jacob Mizarrowski. So, yeah, it puts them firmly into that World Series conversation that we're always like, all right, we're gonna get in the tournament, but we really have to be playing awesome in order to win. And and you still do, you still have to be playing great, and you got to be hitting and you got to get hot. But but the fact that you have that one-two punch now, and Kyle Harrison, he's he's you know, obviously he's not on that same level as as Ms. But let's say Miz wasn't on the team, you'd be very you'd be very happy with Kyle Harrison taking the ball in game one, yeah, the way he's been throwing.

SPEAKER_01 51:38

These two guys, Miz and Harrison, have collectively started 21 games and they've given up 22 earned runs.

SPEAKER_03 51:46

I mean, that's ridiculous. And and both of them to start the year weren't you know totally locked in like they are right now. These guys are totally locked in. And what's so impressive to me, Mike, and I've said this a couple of times, the fact that like let's say you watch Justin Verlander's career unfold, coming out of old dominion, coming out of the draft, that you saw the delivery, and then let's say you you fast forward 10 years and he's won a Cy Young in a World Series, yeah, and all of a sudden, like the delivery evolved over time. Now you look at look at him now, and it's even evolved even more, it's got more efficient and it repeats it even more nowadays, but not this year. Uh but you know what I mean. But Miz did it in one offseason, like he complete like it's a subtle change of what he's been able to do and how he's been able to stay balanced. He's been basically repeats it every time, yeah, and then he stays balanced through release and through finish, and he basically finishes towards home plate instead of peeling off and taking a left turn towards that's what he did last year.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

And we saw him, you know, deer legs last year, you know. Uh Fawn, you know, young deer. Um, and that doesn't happen anymore. He like you're talking about his balance, and that comes from core and leg strength that he's added to who he is.

SPEAKER_03 52:58

He's stronger, he went up two pants sizes, and and he did this in one offseason. It's not, it's unheard of, it's unheard of. You see guys change and even swings, you see guys' swings change and evolve over time, but they don't make these drastic changes in one offseason and have them stick. He's done it, it's the pitching development that's been the bread and butter of the organization, and um, it's uh it's the reason why they're gonna be good for a really, really long time. Uh in the as the position player guys uh develop.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

Was Yelch's fundraiser? Was that was that last night? Or that was coming up.

SPEAKER_03 53:34

No, that was an off day before the St. Louis series. A week ago. Well, did you go? No, I didn't go.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_03 53:40

Yeah, I mean you were on the list. Um, I I think I could have got I think I could have gone. I I've been working a lot, right? So I wanted to stay home with my my wife and kids.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

You've got kids, I mean there's a life. Um so uh listen, uh I I love our visits. I appreciate you being here um and kind of breaking down this the controversy in that game, and there so much of it is unwritten. I didn't understand um how there before you would steal signals with a runner on second or a runner on base if he could see what the catcher was putting down, but now it's pitchcom, so obviously it's tells with the way a pitcher reaches into the glove where he might set up something he does from a mannerism, and I think it's super interesting. I don't think it's discussed enough, and the the weeds of baseball become uh really important. Uh, enjoy this uh this weekend Brewers on the road in Houston. Uh you are no involved the weekend. Yep, just watching it from home.

SPEAKER_03 54:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

All right. Uh appreciate it, Vinny. I look forward to these visits. We'll do it again next week.

SPEAKER_03 54:42

Likewise, Mike. Thanks, man.

SPEAKER_01 54:43

Thank you, Vinny. Vinny Ricino joining us. Yeah, I could do that for a long time, probably too long. Um, but I think there are so many elements to the game that are so interesting. I was talking to my daughter Amanda when we were out at uh uh Ellen's wedding last week because we all stayed in the same house. Now Amanda's my oldest, and you you might think, well, Heller's kids probably get this sports deal a little bit. Amanda said, Dad, you should do a podcast that just explains the basic stuff for people like me who don't understand. I said, Well, how do you not understand? You grew up in in the house that I was you grew up with me as your dad. She goes, Dad, when you watch games, none of us watch with you. We we we didn't pay any attention, zero. So she don't understand what a force out is or you know uh what the take sign might be. Um she said, Dad, you should do a podcast that just explains the basics. And uh she's probably not wrong. There are a lot of people that would benefit from understanding basics, but I love the weeds of the game. I think baseball has so many layers of the weeds of the game that you can get deep into. And they became front and center. Like there are some people who say, How in the world are you stealing signs when there are no signs? Yeah. Well, body language gives tells demeanor, you know, how you reach your hand into the glove after the the catcher pitch comes, you what the next pitch is is a tell. They self-study all of it. But there are little ones that are the deal. And I will forever, and I I'm I'm 99% certain I'm right. I will forever think that the Brewers, in the year that I think they could have won the World Series, when Devin Williams took the mound with a two-run lead in the top of the ninth at American Family Field against the Mets, I have no doubt that the Mets knew the pitch on every pitch. Now that's not the end all be all. But if you know that a changeup is coming and that change up starts thigh high, let it go. It's gonna move out of the zone. And they did that consistently in that inning. And even when they had the tell and they knew what pitch was coming, there were a lot of foul balls because that's how good Devin Williams' stuff was. But Pete Alonso hit a home run on a pitch that Pete Alonso knew he what he was getting, and then Devin threw it in a bad spot. Those things matter, they change lives. I mean, the the career life in Milwaukee is way different if that top of the ninth inning against the Mets in a wild card doesn't happen. That's a team that was capable of winning a World Series. I don't know what would have happened. But that's you get into the weeds of knowing what pitches are coming. People have accused Yelich of that for a long time. Uh of uh that that the Brewers were doing something years ago when he won the MVP and was gonna win the other. Um or even the other day, Ollie Marmal says, yeah, he knows what's coming. Okay. Oh, he doesn't say it, he intimates it. So all of this, I think, is is so in interesting. Um and and on the other side of it, the Brewers are great. I mean, there are good teams that play great. I think the Brewers are bordering on a great team that's playing great. I didn't think they were. I thought they were a good team and could play great in stretches. My opinion on them is changing. That I think they're bordering on being a great team without power, who is right right now playing great baseball. And they're running away. Vinny said they're gonna run away with a division. They lead by four and a half over St. Louis, they lead by four and a half over the Cubs. Pittsburgh's in last place in the division, they're five and a half back, so it's a bunch. But the Brewers have separated now to lead the division by four and a half games. The Cubs will be in Pittsburgh tonight to face Paul Skeens. They ended their 10-game losing streak, but they've lost nine to ten and I think 13 or 14, maybe more than that. Anyway, they're gonna face Skeens tonight, and then guess what is this weekend in St. Louis, Cubs and Cardinals. So if the Brewers can enjoy a little success in Houston, if they can win the series, they're gonna add to their lead in theory over the weekend. So this is fun. And in that 18-game stretch that we pointed out that is now complete, the Brewers went 14-4. They swept the Yankees, took two out of three from the Padres, they took two out of three from Minnesota, they swept the Cubs, went one and two against the Dodgers, but then swept St. Louis. That is 14-4 in an 18-game stretch that was murderer's row of records in Major League Baseball. Pretty impressive. Now, tomorrow I'll fill you in on this. I guess I don't have to, but I'm gonna anyway. Uh I'm in a golf event tomorrow morning, so I'm going to do the show tomorrow, but I'm gonna record it at six in the morning. It'll play at 10, and it will uh almost certainly include a Badger Connect podcast that I host that I did an interview that is running today at badgerconnect.com with Colton Joseph, Badger's quarterback, and his dad. I think you'll find it really interesting. You can go watch it today, badgerconnect.com. And if you didn't or you miss it there, I'm gonna play it back on this podcast tomorrow. I'll have a live portion live on tape, uh recorded portion for the first 15 minutes or so to react to what's going on and fill in a couple of the blanks on other things, but then include that podcast with Colton Joseph and his dad, David, who lives in Austin, Texas. His mom and dad live in Austin, but they grew up in Huntington Beach, California. And David, Colton Joseph's dad, was his coach for much of his growing up uh football experience. So uh I think you'll find the the um interview very interesting. You can get it today at badgerconnect.com or see it here tomorrow on the I Love Monday podcast. But I will not be live 10 to 11. It will be live for you, but I will have recorded it at six in the morning tomorrow, and then we'll run it at 10. Um so my bourbon will be on a golf course tomorrow rather than on the show on a bourbon Friday. Uh we're out of time, over time. Uh, I'll visit with you tomorrow. Hope your weekend is fantastic. Um, because I'll talk to you live again on Monday. But tune in tomorrow and enjoy the rest of today. Thanks for being part of what we do with I Love Mondays, the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:49

I love Mondays with Mike Heller.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:59

Podcasting line from an undisclosed bunker in the Majesty. This is I Love Mondays with Mike Heller, empowered by determination and a little bit of duct tape. Here's your host, Mike Heller.