I Love Mondays-Ep95, July 13, 2026

What a great way to begin the week... talking about Brewers 2nd best record in MLB at the All-Star break.  Plus a long conversation with CheeseHead TV's Aaron Nagler on the Packers ... a little bit on the rivalry with the Bears, and CHTV's relationship with the Packers

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:19

This is I love Mondays with Mike Heller, empowered by determination and a little bit of duct tape. Here's your host, Mike Heller.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Okay, so um here we go. We jump in on a Monday, and I'm back in studio. And listen, I I loved everything we did over the last five days on our bourbon trail trip. We got home uh late yesterday afternoon from uh a long bus ride from Louisville, stopped one time on the way to uh to have a lunch. There were no bourbon stops yesterday, but there was plenty of bourbon that all of our travelers brought home. Well, what a what a great trip. And I hadn't done that before. I've been through Louisville, had never stayed in Louisville, and had not done any of the um formatted distillery stops that that Kentucky is is known for. So we went, we these are all the the uh distillery stops that we had over the and plus tasting rooms, but I'm talking about uh organized. We stopped at the hard truth in Nashville, Indiana on the way down on Wednesday, and it was it was awesome. If you if you are looking for a less than large formatted, beautiful property to go do a tour at or time it check out their calendar and and go when they have live music on a little band shell that they have down in the in the valley by the stream below the their tasting house. The hard truth, Nashville, Indiana. I just can't imagine you would be disappointed. It's gorgeous. And the little town is is kind of eclectic and and neat and fun. Um Nashville, Indiana, the hard truth. We stopped there then uh we on Thursday, first full day, we went to Buffalo Trace in the morning. What a huge operation. Uh and a working full operation. You know, stay out of the way of the of the tractors and the forklifts and the bottling lines were running. Uh, really cool. Went to Woodford Reserve in the afternoon, totally opposite. Woodford out in horse country, gorgeous, couldn't be prettier. Uh, and that was personally my favorite stop. The next morning we stopped on the way at Jim Bean. And I was kind of wondering why we're doing that. Kari set that up really smart on her part. Uh, we just went in and shopped around at Jim Bean, one of the iconic, one of the one of the OGs, right? And then we went upstairs and did some tasting, um, all in about an hour and 15 at like 10:15 in the morning. Uh, and that was really cool. From there, we went to Preservation in Bardstown, Kentucky. It is a female-owned distillery, uh, not large format, fantastic, really good people, great juice, a lot of fun. We we enjoyed that a lot. Went to Heaven Hill in the afternoon. And here's a little tidbit for you. Heaven Hill, it was the original dude's last name. One word, Heaven Hill. They when they bottled, somebody thought, oh, Heaven Hill, two words based on geography, Heaven Hill. Uh, it is one, but it was uh that was also awesome. And then we stopped at Lux, which also wasn't planned. Lux is the maker of Penelope. Uh, that was really good. And then on Saturday, we went to Mickters in the afternoon and Angels Envy early evening. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Eight bourbon stops, four days. One of the days was was not a stop day on Sunday. We didn't do bourbon. Um, really cool. So much fun. And but also glad to be back. Uh, bourbon tasting different than wine tasting. You you've got to find the pace of it. Uh, I might not have found the proper pace on day one and and paid a penalty on the morning of day two, but I recovered. Uh James says, good hot morning, Mike. It is. Uh, summer is certainly here right now. Mike and Merrill says, good morning all on this beautifully hot summer day. It's also the all-star break in Major League Baseball. And let me set up what we're going to do today. I'm going to talk about the Brewers here in just a minute. Uh, get to your comments as they come in. Aaron Nagler from Cheesehead TV is going to be my guest at about quarter past. So if you're watching it live, 1015 Central, if you're watching it uh recorded or later on as a download, Aaron Nagler at what in about um 10 minutes from now. Let me spend uh a couple of minutes talking about who the Brewers are. They are 59 and 37 going to the all-star break. That is the second most wins and the second best record in all of Major League Baseball, only behind the Dodgers. But we're left with a sour taste. And the sour taste is that they just played poorly for about 28 hours in Pittsburgh. Three games, doubleheader Saturday. And honestly, they didn't play poorly in that one until the seventh inning and beyond. So Aaron Ashby uh gave up the big blow in that one. Uh Aaron Ashby is one of my favorite pitchers on this entire staff. He's got ridiculous stuff, and I don't know that the stuff is flawed, but there are books, and people come out with books, and maybe there's not enough movement. Maybe a sequencing is off, maybe uh somebody's guessing right, maybe there's a tell, any of these things. Velocity's not down. So it doesn't appear that it's a stuff issue. Just maybe one of those, uh, an ebb and a flow of a major league baseball season. They hit him, but that wasn't my issue with Saturday. I mean, it is. Without that, the the second issue, which to me is the first issue, is no issue at all. And that is uh I'm the first camera switch of the of the week. I I am uh thinking of Pat Murphy today. I I assume that the hip replacement surgery is today. Uh, and I'm thinking of Murph, and he is perhaps my favorite manager that I've ever been around. And, you know, in that handful of, I think, one of the great managers in the game, small sample set. This is his third year as a full-time manager. He's won two NL Manager of the Year awards. But Murph, as you come out of anesthesia today, uh hopefully somebody asks you the question what are you doing pinch hitting for Jake Powers twice in four days with the bases loaded and the game on the line, and you're pinch hitting for your best hitter. You know what we don't do in baseball? We don't pinch hit for your best hitter. And I'm not making the comparison, but you don't pinch hit for Aaron Judge. You didn't pinch hit for Robin Yao. I'm talking about the season that Jake Bowers is having. Jake is having a great season. And I'm not, he is one of my untouchables on pinch hitting. I'm not pinch hitting for Jake Bowers. You did it twice with Andrew Vaughn in both cases, and the bases loaded in both cases. Didn't work either time. And I'm not talking about a results-driven disagreement, I'm talking about the decision. When you send Vaughn up to the plate, I get the splits, but in the first time you did it, Jake Bowers had doubled twice against lefties. Second time you did it, he had already had a home run in that game. I'm not pinch hitting for Jake Bowers. He's on my do not pinch hit for list. Jackson Churio is on that list. You know who's probably not on that list? And you probably have him on your list, Murph, is Kristen Yelich. That's not a shot at Yelich. He's just not that hitter right now. This year. Jake Bowers is. Can't pinch hit for him. Uh and that happened on Saturday. It happened earlier in the week in St. Louis. That was the game you lost against the Cardinals. I just have a uh significant problem with pinch hitting for a guy Jake Bowers who has 18 homers, 59 runs batted in, and an 881 OPS. He's not gonna be a guy pinch hit for. Period. Unless he's hurt, or he's got a lifetime 0 for 21 with 19 strikeouts against the guy that's on the mound. Uh, I I don't get it. Darren jumps in. Murph is holding out till after this after the season. Oh, uh is that a news change? Is Murph not having a hip replacement? If uh okay, yeah, I see now it comes in twice. All right, stuff I missed when I was drinking bourbon. Um, so Murph postponed the surgery. All right, so Murph, if if you're listening, um send me a message. I can't have you call the show because we don't do that. Uh Tammy uh agrees. Tammy was on the bourbon trail with us. Uh her and Thab with a blast. I think everybody that was on the trip had a great time. And if you're looking for the next one, I think we'll do uh a bourbon trip again. I I know this. We're gonna go to Willamette Valley in Oregon on a wine tasting trip again next spring, late April. Uh that trip we usually leave on a Tuesday, come home on a Sunday. It will return the day after the Kentucky Derby. So if you put that on your calendar, we haven't released the details on that yet, but it's coming out soon. And we do that through our friends at Travel Leaders. Uh, it will be a great trip. Um, so uh think of that. Uh Mike also added the thing with the series is, but I also believe could have been taken uh care of before with another win, is they uh they crap their pants by not etching themselves in the MLB history book with 60 wins. Hey, uh I I don't mean to be a jerk, and I mean I can be, but uh, this isn't where I'm trying to go with this. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. 59 wins of the all-star break, or 60, or 61, or 58. It's a footnote. You'd have to look it up later. Nobody cares. How good are you? How good can you be? Those are the questions. Um, I I would add this. Uh Jerry put in, I agree with you, Mike on Bowers. He is he is hitting lefties. So what are you doing? Uh let me add this in. And we'll get to it in more detail as we go through the week. And Vinny joins us on Thursday, but I'll effort some other elements to this. The Brewers are going to need to make a deal, they're going to need to go get a pitcher. I think Brandon Woodruff might be career compromised now. I don't think he's pitching again this year. Stranger things have happened, but I don't see it. I think Kyle Harrison is really good. And I think there should be concern. If you're having elbow issues now, but it feels okay when you you're shutting it down for a little bit. It would make it makes me nervous. Not would it does? It makes me nervous. I don't know what they're gonna do there, but I also know that regardless, I want another pitcher. Miz on the fatigue that he didn't bounce back. Here's a little bit on Miz. He is easily your most valuable pitcher, and he's gonna be the NL Cy Young Award winner based on trajectory, where he is, if that were obviously to continue. He's pitched 111 innings this year. Last year he went 129 and a third. Somebody's gonna say, Mike, he only went 66. Well, he pitched all the innings in AAA as well. They count. It's not as though that those numbers get scrubbed. Last year he went 129, 129 and a third. So he's at 111 now. Let's just say there's 90 more innings in him. That's 200 innings. That's up. I'm not great at percentages off the fly, but from 129 a year ago to 200 innings is a significant jump. I mean, it is a significant jump. I can't help but think that there's some level of diminishing return if you go from 129 to 200 innings from one year to the next, and you're 23, 24 years old. So there's a little worry there. It is not in the Brewers MO to go get a name. Also, there are only a few names. Kurt Hogue did a really good piece talking about the names that are out there, but teams that might be not willing to move them. Detroit's actually in a wildcard race. Are they gonna move? Um in Minnesota, the twins are actually in a wildcard race. Are they gonna move, Ryan? I I don't know, man. I mean, it but you got three weeks to figure it out. It's August 3rd, is the trade deadline. What are we? August 13th. So talking about 21 days, three weeks from now. I I don't know who's gonna move who. But the Brewers are in need of other starting pitchers. Shane Drone, Brandon Sprout have been really good stories. And in the regular season, they are better than really good stories. Robert Gasser, other than yesterday, has been a really good story. Do you give the ball to Robert Gasser in game three in October? I don't think so. So right now, if you're healthy, Ms. and Kyle Harrison are one and two. Can you go get a guy that might bump Kyle Harrison to three? Where Miz is your one and you give it to Joe Ryan in a game two. And and I Terek Skubel is going to be a name that keeps going out there, but he's put it on record now. He doesn't want to leave Detroit in the final year of his deal. And Detroit's actually in the hunt. When I talk about in the hunt, they're they're actually, when you talk about, because the American League is so crappy right now from uh who's in and who's out standpoint. In the American League, Detroit is three and a half games back of the last, the third wild card spot. The Yankees have the top wildcard spot right now at 54 and 42. Cleveland is next at five games over 500. And then Seattle and Minnesota are tied for the third wildcard spot, both at 48 and 49. They're under 500 and they're tied for the last wild card spot. Boston's a half game back, Houston a game and a half back. Baltimore, two games back, Toronto two and a half, Detroit, three and a half. The only American League, the only teams in the American League that can't look at this as though they're in it are Kansas City and the Angels. The Angels have some commodities that are worth trading, but the Angels are dumb. They don't trade. I've never understood it, what they do and how they do it, why they do it. But that's the deal. All right, let me uh let me get to sponsors and then I'll bring in uh my friend Aaron Nagler and one of our sponsors and good partners is One Community Bank. 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Wisconsin's leader in concussion care, neuroscience group.com. And we're also presented by Pottawatomi Sportsbook and Casino. Bet above the rest and Habish, Habish and Rotier, 13 locations to ensure you get the proper uh treatment of your personal injury case. We're also brought to you by Traditions Lighting, who uh they are tremendous at what they do. You know who else uh we're brought to you by today? Cheesehead TV, because Aaron Nagler is in the show. And Negs, what a treat it is to have you here and to have you say yes on the ask. Thank you for spending time with me.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Oh Mike, I really appreciate it. In fact, I've been sitting over here thinking, what I Mike's been doing this I love Mondays thing for a long time now. I I'm somewhat insulted that I haven't been asked, to be honest. So it's it was a very happy message to receive.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

The other time I reached out, I think you were in New Orleans. Um how was that? Is that a place you enjoy?

SPEAKER_02 18:13

I love it. My girlfriend is from New Orleans, so we go back about once a year, maybe twice if we're lucky. And we were down there for Jazz Fest, and it was outstanding. Absolutely highly recommend it if you haven't been.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Yeah, we just got back from the bourbon trail. I don't know if you're uh a drinker of the brown, uh, but uh we took you know uh enjoy a tipple here or there. We uh we went down with a group from uh our wine and bourbon bar in Wana Key called Red and White Wine and Bourbon Bar. We took a group of 21 all together down on a coach bus to Louisville and then went to Frankfurt and Bardstown and stopped at a place called the Hard Truth in Nashville, Indiana, which is a really cool place. We had a blast. That sounds like a trip. Really good time, really good time. I highly recommend uh that tour. And it's not something we've done before. Um, all right. So let me ask you, we're we're just shooting uh tomorrow, and it's not literally tomorrow, but you know what I mean. Figuratively speaking, training camp starts uh tomorrow, the end of the month here for the Green Bay Packers. And I'm curious about a number of things, but mostly about starting with guys coming back from from injury. So if we're talking about that, how do these players impact, and we'll go one at a time, how Green Bay can be back to a division winner instead of a seventh seed for a fourth straight year? That's what they're where they're living right now, yes, sir. Or NFC championship contender. Let's start with Tucker Kraft. How critical and how much is his return to full speed impactful on what they're trying to get done?

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Well, it's interesting because we did see uh he was playing at such a high level, right? Yeah. When you did go down there in that game against Carolina, but it also is interesting how it did seemingly take them a bit to find a way of working on offense without him. And I did I do remember lots of people, all the season's over and the offense is done. And certainly that wasn't the case, right? They did find a way of working, it did take a couple weeks, but they found a way of working without him, but it's exponentially more explosive with him, and it'd be mostly because of his ability after the catch. Yeah, you know, there's no denying that when Jordan Love is in trouble or he knows he's got to get rid of the football, he is looking for Tucker Kraft, and when he does, good things happen. So certainly uh the kind of margin for error is a lot greater when you've got Tucker Kraft as a safety valve. Yeah, I think they can still, like I said, operate on offense and score points and put up numbers. There's no doubt about that. I think as long as Jordan Love is upright, that's going to happen. But they're so much more explosive, they're so much more dangerous, and you give defensive coordinators just multiple different types of headaches, having to figure out how you are going to utilize Tucker Kraft. So, yeah, I obviously you want all your best players, but he certainly makes their offense 10 times more dynamic just by his presence on the field.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Neggs, I think for years now we've seen how impactful a violent mismatch of a tight end can make it for defenses, whether that was Gronk or or I mean you can go back to Tony Gonzalez. Uh you go back to you can go anywhere and look at that tight end position. And when that guy is special, uh, their offense changes because defensive coordinators don't know what to do. Linebackers, even strong safeties, have a tar hard time with that big physical, violent tight end. And that's what Kraft is, and hopefully he he comes back to. My second guy is also on offense. I wanted to stay offense first. So Zach Tom to me is the other guy. And he might be, you know, that linchpin that if he's good, everything's good. And if he's not Not it creates a whole set of domino problems for that offensive line. Would you agree on the Zach Tom importance? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

In fact, it's interesting you mentioned him because a lot of people have somewhat kind of forgotten the fact that he missed those last five five games, the same five games that Micah Parsons missed. And everyone attributes the five-game slide. Oh, they lost Micah Parsons, it all went to hell in a handbasket, which is obviously especially true on the defensive side of the ball. But Zach Tom, more important than Tucker Kraft in my mind. Because again, as long as you've got protection for Jordan Love, he's gonna tear you apart on the back end, right? There's zero doubt that if you can protect Jordan, he is going to find where the open man, where the ball should go, etc. And Zach Tom is such a huge component in that regard. And as you say, it's such a kind of trickle-down effect, a knock-on effect when he does go out of the lineup. And we saw it so many times last year, where even at the beginning of a game where he's there to start, all of a sudden he's down. The Cleveland game drop comes immediately to mind when he lasts one play, you know, and then everybody's out of position and everyone's kind of scrambling. He is a set it and forget it right tackle, which is very rare. Don't look any further than the game in Detroit last year, where they're legit having him erase Hutchinson, one of the best pass rushers in the game. They're able to put Zach Tom out there on an island and then deal with everything else with you know, slide protection, a back chipping, whatever else they want to do, because they know they can set it and forget it with Zach Tom. He is, I think, the most important as far as offensively. Yeah. Uh all the guys that they need to have back, especially week one, Minnesota, everything we know they like to throw at you uh from a defensive standpoint. Zach Tom is the most important component.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Isn't it interesting without a left-handed quarterback that the your best offensive lineman is your right tackle? Uh, and it leads to the question that Jordan Morgan is installed as your lead offensive lineman. Left tackle is your best player. I think Zach Tom's their best lineman, but Jordan Morgan's gonna be on the left side. Uh what's your worry factor? Any sleepless uh going to bed, thinking of Morgan on the left edge?

SPEAKER_02 24:11

I have a longstanding response to this. That the only thing I worry about is my children. Yeah, I don't worry about the Packers too much. But when it comes to Jordan Morgan, you're not wrong. As far as we've certainly seen him bounce around the line so far in his career, and it hasn't ever looked a hundred percent. It hasn't looked like, oh, that's a future all pro. I will say there have certainly been stretches where he's looked promising. There's certainly been stretches where it looks a little less than promising. So I don't doubt for a moment that the guy we're gonna see at left tackle is gonna be the guy we saw at left tackle last summer when Rashid Walker went down with injury, and he looked pretty darn good. Now, doing it for 10, 12 days in camp is a whole different world than doing it as the starter week one and going 16, 17, 18 games. I think you know he's gonna most likely be a hell of a lot more comfortable there. You know, he was drafted as a left tackle, he played a boatload of left tackle in college, and then he's gotten to the pros and they've used him pretty much everywhere but so I don't doubt for a moment that they're gonna be, you know, a hiccup here or there as he kind of settles in. But I do also think that he's a going to be a pretty significant upgrade over what Rasheed Walker gave them last year. Walker had a really rough season, and I was a bit surprised that they never made the switch outright in season. Although I know because Zach went down, they needed to use uh you know Morgan and other guys over there at right tackle. But I do think, again, uh he is going to be an improvement over what they had last year, and last year, even with really inconsistent offensive line play, they were still a top 10 offense in most metrics. So I I think Jordan's gonna, again, he's gonna take his lumps at time as a first-time starter there at left, but uh he should be an upgrade over what they've had recently.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

He's Aaron Negler of Cheesehead TV camera switch here when I ask you about Josh Jacobs. I I I don't know that we know it is uh it is the courts can be quiet, and that's where they are right now. We don't cover the courts. I'm sure that you would prefer not to cover the legal side of what we talk about. But he is he's incredibly important to what they do, and there isn't really an answer right now, is there?

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Not really. I mean, I think it feels like we're past hold our breath time. Yeah, like if something were to or was going to shake out from this, I think it would have. But like you say, you never really know. But I also I I had a couple guys online joking about you know the Packers when Josh Jacobs appeared on the top 100, the NFL's top 100 that they're rolling out here this month. You know, the Packers kind of went to town, video, social, all that stuff. And I don't think they would have done that if they had felt any kind of trepidation. You know, obviously you acknowledge it, maybe put out a tweet, but they you know put out packages of stuff. So I suspect the Packers are operating under the assumption that maybe not in the clear, but nothing's gonna happen to keep him off the field in 2026.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

All right, let's let's switch on to the defensive side. And I'm not gonna begin with the obvious, I'm gonna begin with DeMontay Wyatt, uh, because I I I think that his return to form and his impact on what they're gonna do defensively probably won't get talked about a ton, but I think it's way near the top of the list.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Without question. I mean, you saw how effective he was with Micah in the lineup, and it really, really hampered them losing both of those guys down the stretch last year for obvious reasons. But I also think given what they're gonna try to be, you know, implementing a new defense, trying to get to the passer without Micah Parsons for most likely the first half of the season, so to speak. Yeah, I think there's no question that you pair him with Hargrave and you could be cooking with gas on passing downs. Now, you also got to eat your vegetables, you got to stop the run. I think Wyatt's probably in a better spot in that regard than Hargrave is at this point in their careers. But yeah, there's little doubt that they're going to need his presence in the middle. It's, I'm not gonna say a huge drop-off, but it's certainly a step back when you look at everyone else they've got, unless you get some kind of huge step forward from a guy like maybe Warren Brinson or Nazir Stackhouse. And even then, I think you're only counting on those guys on early downs, most likely. I mean, when you get to the money downs, you get to we want to get pressure up the middle in the lap of the quarterback. Devontae Wyatt's your guy. And if you pair him with Hargrave, who's still got that ability to get to the quarterback, uh, you could really be cooking there, but he's got to be on the field. And I know at locker clean out in January, he talked about oh, he would most likely be ready by the start of camp. He was on the sideline rehabbing throughout the entirety of the offseason program. I know, like as far as the reporting and everything that's been talked about, it sounds like he should be good to go week one, but you know how it is. It's nothing's a given. I suspect he'll probably come back and start on PUP, uh, camp PUP because that's how the Packers operate. They're gonna take it as slowly as possible. But man, it it it he needs to be out there week one for them to really have a shot there in Minnesota.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Negs, I haven't mentioned you did uh Micah Parsons yet. Uh he's gonna be the headline stealer on a guy returning from from an injury. That injury is late last year, so we think of late October. Uh it fans are gonna be impatient, but I don't know that the Packers can afford to be impatient. They're gonna have to, you know, be cautious on this.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

Is that a fair way to look at it? Absolutely. And I keep going back to something that David Bakhtiari said when I interviewed him about his uh what ended up being career-ending injury. You know, he said when he was talking to Doc McKenzie, now obviously there's a different doc in charge now, but he said the Packers' philosophy is we don't want you back for five games, we want you back for five years. Yeah, and I do not doubt for a moment that is how they're looking at Micah Parsons, right? You make that kind of investment, what they gave up to get him, you don't want to rush him back. And I've had people kind of in my mentions and in my chats talking about, well, if their record is this or if they're like this in the division, none of that is gonna have a bearing on how and when they bring him back. And it's funny because I was doing a QA on Twitter the other night, and someone said, What week do you think he'll be back? And I said, Week 12, and everyone freaked out and like, oh my god, it's a disaster, whatever. And I said, No, operate in your mind like it's week 12, so that if and when he comes back earlier than week 12, you can be excited rather than, as you said, being impatient about when's he coming back.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Yeah. And uh they're gonna have to so it's not the same, but they're gonna have to tread water a little bit without him. That doesn't mean that I want them to be four and four, eight games in. Hopefully, they're better than that. Yeah, but the Brewers had to tread water without um Yelich and Churio and Woodruff at first. Earlier in the year, right? Yeah, and they did they did pretty well with that. Novon and and the I think that's a little bit of what Green Bay has to do before you get Mike Parsons back. Now it doesn't necessarily work the same way, but uh I'm also curious when we look at the big picture of this team, there's an eight-year barrier historically for head coaches who haven't gotten home in their first seven, home being to a Super Bowl. Yep. What's your view of where Green Bay went with the extension and Matt LaFleur's ability to get his team home to a Super Bowl after now he's had seven full seasons?

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Yeah, there's little doubt that it's fighting against history, right? I think John Madden is the only guy who's ever done it. Correct. So certainly that's uh a uh historical precedent that you don't love to embrace, but there it is. So let's go make history, right? I think I understand Ed Policy's uh you know statements, both with the media and then with us on Cheesehead TV, where he talked about this implicit trust in Matt LaFleur and how after the meltdown in Chicago and everyone's calling for Matt's head, and Ed said it was never going to be about that one game, no matter how badly it went. He's certainly seen the work that Matt has done as far as not just kind of turning things around after Mike McCarthy was fired and Aaron Rodgers was in not great the his greatest form to help and coach him up to two more MVPs, right? And they did get to the doorstep of a Super Bowl, to then ripping that band-aid off and going super young, younger than I think we've seen in Green Bay in quite some time, three years in a row, youngest team in the league. And you've brought along Jordan Love, the game's most important position at quarterback, with also the work he did with Malik Willis. I understand that people will look at certain decisions and play calls and things like that, but man, great coaches are great teachers, and it's clear that at least offensively, Matt is a great teacher. And yes, he's got to find a defensive counterpart. Hopefully, he's done that with Gannon. Um, but my thing has always been I understand the idea of letting Matt finish the job, right? Yeah, you went super young, you went and got a brand new starting quarterback that he built up, and they have formed this continuity on offense at this point with a core of guys that they have identified and they have paid, whether it is Christian Watson, Jaden Reed, they'll undoubtedly pay Tucker Kraft, and you've got Jordan Love, who's got all these years in your system. Let him go finish the job. Whatever the length of the contract is, we don't know, it's not public, there's been no reporting on it. But Ed did say, you know, this is not just a bridge contract. I believe in Matt LaFleur. What else could what other choice do you have other than to root against your head coach, which is alien to me, right? So I'm I I root for Matt to make history essentially and join John Matton in that club.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

If we life DVR'd it and we went back to the week and a half after the Bears' playoff loss, did you think that LaFleur was gonna be retained?

SPEAKER_02 33:59

Did you think he did it's funny you say that because I said I tweeted something out um the week before that game because you know everyone was talking about he's gotta win, they gotta do this, they gotta do that. And I just said, Man, all of you just need to go outside or go read Dickens or do something because it's just not how the Packers operate as an organization. Like everyone's trying to like project what they feel onto Ed policy. Ed's been in the building for a long time now, he knows what the deal is in Green Bay. So I said, you know, just it's not gonna happen, it's not gonna happen. And then after that game in particular, my was flooded. That tweet was flooded with people. Are you sure? Oh, I was pretty sure. And I, you know, if would I have been shocked if the trigger would have been pulled? Maybe not shocked, I've been a bit surprised. But as far as retaining him, that didn't surprise me at all. I was what I expected them to do, it's what they did. Again, they value the continuity. Certainly, again, LaFleur's fighting against history here, but man, he is a very talented coach with a very talented roster. Again, he's got to get it right on defense. Hopefully, Gannon is that you know part of the equation, but uh there's little doubt they'll be in the mix. They've got to get a little bit more luck health-wise, yeah. But they should be right there, no doubt.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Next, I want to get back into Packer's specific stuff here in a minute, but let me let me ask you about Cheese Head TV and why why is it? I mean, I think I have my own theories on this, and there's a huge appetite, right? I mean, you you you've lived in that world. Why has it worked? What why is it that what you guys have done has worked so well? Um, and you you've got such a tremendous following.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

It's a good question. I it's something I do get asked about every once in a while. And I'll say it's it's not, I don't think anything we've done specifically. Uh as much as I'd love to say we've been ahead of the curve as far as what we've decided the avenues we've decided to go down or anything like that, but some of it is just stubbornness, you know. When we started, you know, I'm looking at uh I have a framed uh piece on my wall here from the Green Bay Press Gazette back in the day, back in 2009, they did a piece on us about how we were, you know, the uh guys on the internet, fans on the internet, which was a very kind of new thing back in 2007 when we started. We had so many people that we were maybe not competing with, but we're in the same kind of avenue we were going down, and they all one by one just kind of stopped doing it. We just kept going. Like we you know, figured ultimately it's about Corey and I having a very, very long friendship, you know, and the idea that I wouldn't be doing this, it would feel very, very weird, right? Which is kind of what happened because when I was on the beat, I wasn't allowed to do cheese at TV. Gannett wouldn't allow me to. And that was like since 2007, that was the only couple years where I didn't, and it felt very odd. So I just I suspect, you know, I'll we'll still be doing it when I'm in an old folks' home and he's probably living in a retirement place in Green Bay somewhere, and we'll still be on a Zoom call arguing about the Packers.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Well, get give me a sense of and our viewers, a sense of you and Corey, your philosophy. Like I look at it from the outside in and think smart fans, really passionate fans. So we do a Tuesday show here on my daily podcast that I call Super Fan Tuesday, and I've got two guys, Jeff Bilker and Courtney Corning, that I rotate through. And the reason I do it is because A, they're super passionate, but B, they're mostly smart, and not always, but they're mostly smart. Right. So I I look at you guys and go, okay, start with the fandom. I mean, you you're never gonna hide from the idea that you're a fan. And if you watch you watch a game, yeah, you see your fandom. Hard to miss. Yeah. But you also have to be smart, right? I mean, you can't just be the super passionate fan that doesn't think through the thoughts that they're gonna put out there. Is that a is that kind of a does that encapsulate a little bit of what your philosophy is?

SPEAKER_02 38:07

I think you're you're you're touching on it a little bit, but I will say that it's never been that thought out, right? It's just the personalities that are involved. Like Corey and I are both, like you say, passionate fans. Corey is not interested in finding out like who that third guy on the practice squad is, right? Whereas I am and I always have been. Uh, he makes fun of me for it, right? I will say though, like it's funny over the years, it's somewhat I've lessened a little bit in that regard, just because, man, and this you talk about a philosophy. Our philosophy is don't make it homework, right? Like, I'm a fan, I'm having fun, I want to be informed, there's no doubt about it. But man, the the way the internet has just diced things up and really gone hyper niche with some of the coverage as far as uh whether it's you know the analytics of the thing or the obsession with contracts and what guys are making and all what the cap ramifications might be for a signing or a cut or whatever. That feels like homework to me. So I I like I want to again I want to be informed, obviously, but yeah, I think we try for our viewers not to make it homework. Like it's always been about, and one of the greatest compliments I've ever received is someone that emailed me last year and said, you know what's amazing is that it when we what when I watch your content, it just feels like I'm with a buddy at the bar, which is the whole point. That's the if you can make it feel like that, even with something as clunky as the internet, right? If you can make it just feel like you're hanging out with a guy that you love and you love the Packers together and you're just yeah hanging out, that's the whole point. That's that's to me, that's the whole reason we do it, as far as that connection with fans that feel the same way about the Packers we do. If we can achieve that, everything else is gravy.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

But it it's interesting to me that you you have a journalism background and well, a background, I mean, you know, ish, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:51

I started plunking away at the keyboard back in the day, and then suddenly Gannette wanted to hire me because we were doing social and video and they weren't and they needed it, and that's why they hired me.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

You know, one of the things I always found interesting is isn't even the I'm I'm searching for the right word. Um, with people that I that I have a great deal of respect and have worked either with or around who don't have the fan in them, right? Yeah, like they they're not bothered when the team loses, they're just writing a story, and and I'm still bothered. Like it's right, it's still hey, I get a little extra joy when the Brewers are playing good. Uh, I get a little extra when when the Packers don't win a game, right? You guys, I mean, that's part and parcel to your daily life.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Yeah, that's it's a it's a blessing and a curse because it does feed the passion that then I share with other fans and our viewers, and that's certainly a a a positive, right? But I'll tell you what, it absolutely ruins my week when they lose, and that will, I don't think, ever go away to the play to the fact that my girlfriend will be like, okay, I'm just gonna stay away with uh away from you on Monday after the Packers lose on a Sunday. You know, it's just like because I'm just in a dour mood. So, man, that was the way it was when I was five. That's the way it is when I'm 50. It's gonna be the way it is when I'm 75. I can't turn that off.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Yeah, I've never been able to turn it off. And and there are people who are really good in our business, and people have a ton of respect for pretend to do it when I was on the beat.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Yeah, that you brought that ass that classical actor training right to the fore. I had to pretend like I wasn't bothered, it was great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

So how often are you acting when uh when you're on cheese at TV? I mean, this usually it is your back.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

My my my standard joke is that I I use my degree every day because I'm acting like I know what I'm talking about. You know, it's look, I I've I've read a lot, I've studied a lot, I've gone to coaches' clinics. I like to think I know just a touch about football. Not a ton, but I know a little bit, probably a little bit more than your average non-geek, right? But I don't pretend to be an expert. Like I understand, and the the funny part is like the more I do this, the more I understand how little I know. I'll I tell I've told the story on Cheesehead TV before, but there was a coach's clinic that I kind of attended online, a cool clinic with Adam Stenovich, who was then the offensive line coach for the Packers, now obviously the offensive coordinator. And he was breaking down film from a game in Indianapolis. Um, David Bakhtiari was at left tackle, and I cannot remember who was at left guard, but the guard was a rookie, and he was next to Bakhtiari, who at that point was very established. And he was breaking down one rep for about 20 minutes, just pointing out that first step and the difference between the two, and how the finite technique that was involved about why this was sloppy and this was pinpoint, blah blah blah. And I had been doing this now at that point for a good 10 years, right? Yeah, and at that moment I was like, Oh, I don't know anything, I don't know anything. So, like that has looked really informed how I've somewhat tried to step back, and especially when it's film breakdown stuff. If there's a you know a Jeff Schwartz out there, a former lineman, NFL who played for the Panthers and the Giants, whatever, yeah, he's breaking down offensive line play, I'll pay attention, right? Or some of the wide receiver stuff or defensive back stuff by the pros and guys who've coached in the league, I'll pay attention to that. Right. But when it comes to so much of the, I guess, you know, hobbyists, as it were, I I just I I'm I don't want to contribute that way anymore because I like I said, I got to a point where I was very sure that I knew a lot about football until that moment when I was like, oh, I don't know very much at all.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

You you you probably answer this question a lot, so I uh apologize for going down a familiar road, but how have has the relationship with the Packers evolved? Right? Because originally. You have to be looked at as an internet. And listen, uh pull back the curtain. Uh, now that I'm a podcaster and I don't work for iHeart or one of the radio groups, I'm also not credentialed. Yep. Like I can't go inside the fence line at training camp. And I asked about even training camp, not just not games. Right. And so I'm now I'm on the outside. But your relationship with Cheesehead TV, I assume, has evolved. Has it with the Green Bay Packers proper?

SPEAKER_02 44:31

It has and it hasn't. What's funny is that, yeah, I mean, back in the day, we were banging out copy at the ice cream parlor there at Lambeau Field, which is no longer there, but that's where I would do all my blog posting after a training camp practice, right? Now I get in because of our affiliation with the radio station. And back in the day I got in, obviously, because I was on the beat. But the moment I would be just back to being just Cheese Head TV, yeah, I'd be I'd be sitting on the outside looking in. So in that regard, like as far as like credentialing and things like that, that hasn't changed too much. But what is interesting and what is fun is to hear from people inside 1265 Lombardi who have followed Cheesehead TV, who do support Cheese Head TV, who do like what we do, um, and then buttress that against some of the people in 1265 who don't like what we're doing and are not fans of what we're creating. And it's fun to watch that push and pull. But I will say that there are it feels like there are more people who appreciate it than don't. It's just the people who don't have uh the ability to make our life hell.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

Sure. And I imagine, I mean, I I I noticed sort of firsthand that they don't miss a beat. I mean, if you're uh if you violate one of the rules, if you use a logo, if you do something that you're not licensed to do, it's gonna come back, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Oh, yeah. They're what they look at everything, they've got people looking at everything. So yeah, we've had, especially with our merch, we've had a lot of those questions, a lot of those conversations, and there are things we've pushed back on. But you know, for the most part, if we skirt the line, so to speak, you know, they'll they'll give us an email and we'll say, okay, fine, we understand. But you know, we're always trying to push the envelope. Like, what's the pro what's the point of hanging on this earth if I'm not gonna like at least try and like push forward a little bit and have a little fun and you know, skirt the line a little bit? I mean, that's that's part of the game.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

That's what so I I I've been talking uh on occasion during the brewer season. I've had uh David Kaplan from Chicago on um ESPM 1000 there. Uh and I said to him, and I think you you totally agree with this, I don't know that the rivalry here has ever been better. And there there have been some great times in the rivalry between Wisconsin, Green Bay, and Milwaukee and Chicago, you know, the Hallis years, uh Lombardi years, Forrest Gregg and Mike Ditka. But when you combine both of them, Tubbs playing in a 163 a few years back, playing in the second round of the playoffs this last year, being in the same division, and now Packers, Bears, because for a long time it wasn't a rivalry, the Bears sucked. Yeah. Um, but right now, isn't it about awesome?

SPEAKER_02 47:08

I mean, isn't this about as good as it gets? I mean, it's as hot as it's ever been, right? As far as like the maybe the tensions between the fan bases and yes, the the clubs themselves actually both being good at the same time, which has rarely happened. I will say though, it is funny watching these Chicago fans because they don't know how to act, they don't know how to deal with success. You know, you won a couple games and now you think you're the king of the world. Like, great, have it. I especially after that playoff meltdown, I would be crowing. I get it, but but it is telling that you can make a comment online about Jordan Love or about um Christian Yalitch or or anybody affiliated with any Milwaukee Green Bay team, right? And you are instantly bombarded with Chicago fans. What's up, little brother? You're not having enough good times down there in Chicago with your teams. You got to come into our comment section. Like just when the teams play each other, I get it. You you you chirp at each other, but man, don't let us live in your head rent-free. At least charge rent. You know, it's like it's just interesting to see little brother like finally puff out his chest a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

Well, then let me go to the last uh little brother, big brother concept, and I don't know where where it is. Um compare and contrast in your world, what they have in Caleb Williams and what we have in Jordan Love. And let me start it by doing this. I I did I did this sort of experiment. If I'm buying a three to five year stock and I'm 60, I'm where I am in in life, I'm I'm buying Jordan Love. If I'm buying a three to five year stock and I'm 37, I'm probably buying Caleb. That's how I live and look at these two quarterbacks. How do you compare and contrast what they are?

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Well, I think Jordan Love's a better quarterback right now. I think Caleb Williams is undoubtedly a more electric playmaker. You can't deny what he's done, especially at the end of these games last year. Uh, a couple of throws in the postseason that were just out of this world, but you also can't deny how inconsistent he's been. And that's something that you cannot build around. You've got to improve in that regard. And you've seen that improvement from Jordan Love through those first four or five games as a starter, where people were writing articles about how the Packers were gonna have to take a quarterback in the top 10 because they were gonna be terrible, you know, to the improvement where we saw through last year. He is the more consistent quarterback, he's the better quarterback overall, but that doesn't mean that Caleb Williams can't become more consistent, become a better quarterback, right? I think the ability that Jordan Love has shown to operate the offense at the highest of levels, and he should be getting even more control over the offense as it goes along, that will make him more potent long term. Now, that again doesn't dismiss the possibility that Caleb could become something a little bit more consistent and just a better overall quarterback, especially with Ben Johnson as his coach. Like as frustrating as that man makes me, yeah, as much as I hate what he the whole him and Matt LaFleur thing and how overblown that got, he's a hell of a coach. And he is a hell of an offensive coach and a really good play caller. So if he and Caleb are joined at the hip for the next five, eight, nine, ten years, yeah, that's gonna be a problem for the Green Bay Packers. Like that's not I don't suspect that that's gonna get worse, right? I think they found a really good way of working last year. You got to expect that's gonna improve here these next couple years.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

Yeah, and I think anytime we talked about great quarterbacks in the NFL, we've you'd be making a mistake if you didn't attach them to their coach. Usually Holmes and Andy Reid, they're together. Belichick and Brady were together, even if Bill wasn't an offensive-minded genius. You know, you talk about Fav and Holmgren, and all of them are paired. You seldom find this great quarterback who worked with six different coaches. It just doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Part of the component about why they've kept Matt LaFleur around, right? Like I understand again some of the misgivings, but you cannot deny the work he's done with Jordan Love. Like he has formed and kind of brought him along and made him a really, really good quarterback on the precipice of being great. So yeah, it's it's going to be a fascinating exercise tracking those two over the course of the next five years or so.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Yeah, no doubt. Hey, this is a blast for me. I I again I said off the top, uh, I appreciate that you say yes. Um, this is a fun visit, and I hope we get to do it on a somewhat regular as we get through this season. Absolutely, man. Just uh let me know, reach out, and I'll be here. I love what you do, and I appreciate you coming on. Thanks, Aaron. Thanks so much for having me, Mike. Thanks for joining us, Cheesehead TV, Aaron Nagler, fellow Appleton. And listen, I did the whole interview and didn't even go to the Appleton roots. I'm just left it alone. We'll go there again at another time. I know as many of you are jealous of our Appleton backgrounds. You know, I mean, it's a big part of who we are. Um, that that truly, I hope that uh you enjoyed that is as much as I do. And here's the thing, and and I said this about when I was talking about my super fan Tuesdays on the show here. Um I want passion. That's why you know Jeff Bilker, Treadmill, and Courtney Corning, that's why they're my guys on uh Super Fan Tuesday because they don't lack for passion. That's what you want to bring. Corey Benke and Aaron Nagler at the very least, and this is not the beginning and end of their conversation, they bring passion. Watch Nagler watch a game once. That's a treat in and of itself. It's passionate, it's real. There's no acting involved in that. Um so I so I think I think they're brilliant in what they've done. And he's not wrong about this. So this will be my goal as I roll forward and started it later in life than they did, but it's my goal to be consistent and be here and do this. The Packers won't credential you if you're not with an affiliate, and I'm not. So you won't find me at games in the press box or doing a stand-up when the game is done from the field or in the locker room. In fact, I won't even be doing that for training camp, but I will be up there and I will watch it as you are if you're a railbird or sitting in the stands. Um, and I will be active on all games and all game days. I just won't be in the stadium and doing shots from the stadium at Lambeau because they don't, and this isn't a shot at them. I get it. They don't credential us, they credential the affiliate, they don't credential the individual, they credential who it is you work for. Well, I don't work for somebody, which is both a blessing and a curse. I don't need to be in a locker room to do my job, it can help. I don't need to be in the fence line to do my job, it can help. I don't need to be in the press box, I would prefer not to be in the press box. It's not my favorite. In fact, it's my least favorite place to watch a game in football, is the press box. The broadcast booth is different. For Badger football, I'm not in the press box. I'm in the broadcast booth with Matt and Taush. And that's a great place to be. It to me, it's the best place to be. For Packers games, always in the press box, that was not a great place to be. I I did not enjoy that. But you also then I won't be standing on the edge of the field 25 minutes, 30 minutes after the game is done, and doing a uh, you know, a Heller's final green and gold. By the way, that's a little hint. Because my brood daily will also augment into Heller's final with Badger football and Heller's final with Packers games, all of them. So you'll get that, you know, the day of a game after the game is done. So but it won't be, it will for Badgers be inside the stadium, but it will not be for the Packers. But it doesn't mean I won't, I'll do it right from here. So very much looking forward to all of that. And that really was an enjoyable, fun visit with Aaron Nagler. Dude is passionate about it. He's smart. He says he that's the only time he's acting, acting like he knows what he's talking about. He knows what he's talking about. The X's and O's, the the intricacies of it, I don't, I'm not, I don't live in that world either. That's why it was fun doing the show with Billy Schmid, because Billy could talk about line play in ways that I'd know uh I'm not there. You know, when when Aaron's talking about Adam Stenovich breaking down one rep for the left guard for about 25 minutes on first step, and I assume he's talking about which foot he took the first step with, how far that foot first step was, was it to the side, was it three quarters, was it 90% back? Well, you all of those things. What was it a three-inch step or was it a five-inch step? Those things are critiqued to no end. I don't live in that world. But I am passionate and excited about what we get to do as the Packers get started. And I hope that you're gonna be along for the ride. We'll do it on a daily with I Love Monday, but then uh it'll probably be called something along the lines of Heller's Final Green and Gold and Heller's Final Badgers and the Brood Daily. We'll probably switch to Heller's Final Brood Daily, whatever that is. So we're we're gonna we're gonna do that. Uh let me wrap it up by by saying all always thank you to each one of these sponsors. When it comes to one community bank, go to onecommunity.bank for your next banking decision. Go to m3ins.com. If you're involved with insurance procurement benefit packages, risk management for your company, reach out to m3ins.com. If you've got a back injury, a concussion, a car accident situation where you need help to return back to full health. Neurosciencegroup.com is your place to go. If you're looking for the casino, is there another one? Go to Pottawatomi Sportsbook and Casino. Shuttle start running again Friday for the Brewers and Marlins at American Family Field and also to our friends at Habish, Habish Enrotier. And I always want to say uh thank you also to Traditions Lighting and do this in a different way to bring in all of our sponsors here as we get ready to wrap up. But Traditions Lighting, there you see on your screen popping up bottom right, go to traditionslighting.com for not just your holiday lighting needs, but your permanent landscape lighting needs, because what they do is fantastic. Now's the time to book them. Traditionslighting.com. A big thank you to all of you for jumping in here today, whether it was with messages or just uh your support and viewership of the podcast back in tomorrow. It is a super fan Tuesday tomorrow. I'm hoping that maybe I get both of them tomorrow, uh, both treadmill and CC, because now we haven't visited as a group for a little bit. So we'll see how that works. But certainly treadmill uh working on, uh I will work on seeing if uh Courtney Corning can be part of it as well as we uh we roll forward. Brewers at the All-Star Break, I'm gonna be talking about them throughout the week and where they sit on the trade front uh as we reach out 21 days from now or so for the MLB trade deadline. So we'll have that on the docket as well throughout the week. No brew daily tonight. Uh you get a night off from me. I'll be back in here tomorrow, Super Fan Tuesday. Thanks for being part of what we do. We appreciate you. And we talk again tomorrow, live at 10 a.m. or anytime where you download and watch your podcasts.

SPEAKER_03 58:55

I love Mondays with Mike Hell.