Why (Most) Agencies Suck! Part 2 w/ Guest: Bianca Lopez Valdez

Listen in to Part 2 where we talk about how the best agencies are consultative instead of simply being "order takers." 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Welcome to the D D S D and Jelly Marketing Podcast. I am your host, Brasilia, and we are continuing on this is part two of our last episode that was posted by Most Agency Suck with Bianca, our guest here. This is long overdue. I'll get into that in in terms of like why it's been taking me longer to get some of these episodes posted and such in the last episode that I'll be recording of this season and hopefully a couple of weeks here. But without getting too much into that, let's just continue where we left off. The last episode. I asked Bianca a question of it's easier not to push back as an agency to clients or brands who may be stuck in a ROAS mindset or who may be grading things from a perspective of how Meta or other platforms worked a couple of years ago. And as an agency, it is easier to just take orders instead of pushback with consultative feedback. But let's let Bianca answer that question here.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Um, it definitely is easier. I I know it's something we both agreed on when we've spoken before, like, neither of us have it in us. Like we can't be that person who works that way. Like we we physically can't do the work to the point we both agreed we wouldn't work with the client if that was the case. So you and I both have um like those harder conversations. And it is because part of it is sharing information that maybe someone doesn't have. And when I say maybe, I mean it that you know, having, and what I mean is like in terms of like the CPA or you know, MER and like profitability, actually talking through with someone and no one learns anything straight away. Like maybe they take something away on built on other information in the past, but in terms of learning something new that takes time and multiple conversations. I normally see it as like pushing or challenging clients is that it's a responsibility that we have when someone works with a provider or like, you know, someone in services and you're doing a service for them, that our responsibility isn't just to run ads and campaigns for them, that we have a responsibility to share information with them too. Like no other service that you go to would be like, oh, I'm doing just this job, but all this other really important information that's gonna impact you, I'm not gonna talk about or tell you anything about. It wouldn't happen in the medical field with doctors, it wouldn't happen with any sort of trade. No plumber or builder would ever do that. And a big part of that is because there's like legal implications. Like we're protected by laws in uh like countries that stop that from happening, both from the individual doing the work in how they get into the field and the education qualifications that they have to have, and then the businesses themselves. So marketing itself has this bit of a loophole. But for me, and I'm sure you'll agree too, that it doesn't abstain us from the responsibility of showing up and having these conversations because although they may be uncomfortable, someone needs like you like I feel like brands and people need to work with people they can trust to tell them the truth. And like, hey, this is why. So for me, I find it frustrating because it's one of those things I happily will share as much information as like as out there, but just how often I find agencies with these shady tactics come along and really push that this low CPA is really valuable with them being really fudging the numbers. And I've even said when I've worked in agencies as well, I'm like, oh, was their aim just to look and have as met like as much positive data that looks like they're doing well? Was that the aim? And so I said this behind closed doors, and they get really defensive, not just when you speak like that, but just normally if you speak to anything, they'll be deflective, they won't really answer your question. So you need to work with someone you can trust and not in a warm, fuzzy sense, like, oh, this person's nice to me, I can trust them. It's like, no, it's like a genuine trust. Like if you think of any other relationship in your life, like not just professional and colleagues, but in family and friends, like you're going to not agree on everything, and that's normal. So if you agree with everything someone says, that's a bit of a red flag because why are they agreeing with you? Like no one has all the answers.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah, no, that's a really good point. And uh one other thing that you brought up twice now is just kind of like the analogy to the trades and plumbers and like things like that. Because I do feel like market, no, I have used one of my best LinkedIn posts was like um using an analogy like that of like marketing agencies um to a plumber. And kind of like you're saying, would a like if a plumber was in your house and then you were just telling them, hey, I actually think that pipe should go there. The plumber's just like, sure, why not? And then like they leave, and then all of a sudden, like everything's leaking in your house, or like the toilet doesn't work, um, or you have like flood damage, like you're gonna be pissed that that person didn't tell you, wait, like this was actually the right way to be doing things. Like you said, in the trades, you do have that kind of like more legal obligation, so they just you know are are forced almost to give that more direct feedback, and because of think of all the legality and certifications around it, um, homeowners or whoever is like a little bit more trusting, like to take that feedback, but it's still the same thing where you and I guess like the the other thing that I kind of wanted to talk about that you mentioned was just that kind of like that yes person or that people pleaser approach that a lot of agencies have. And I have worked with a few operators or brand owners who have worked with a lot of agencies who they did have to basically tell them everything to do, and it really was a I say I say this, and then they say yes, and it's just kind of like that kind of relationship. But if that's the what you're experiencing, that is another red flag that you should really be like, why am I hiring and paying this person who's supposed to be an expert at this um at this tactic, this platform, this the strategy, um in instead of like pushing me and like giving me the the advice and like telling me like where to go with things. And it's very similar to the trades where you may want to give your insight here and there, you may have done a couple of home projects, and like that's totally fine, but you should still be getting like really direct feedback, and honestly, more often than not, some type of pushback from the agency or freelancer because they they should know more, especially if you're paying them to do that job than what you may know. Um, your ideas are still completely valid, any concerns or questions, like we've told said this whole time, like keep asking those questions. Um, but don't just look for an agency that is kind of like a yes person because like that's just you're just never going to get the best strategy when you have that that sort of philosophy.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

100%. They need to be coming to you with new ideas and new information and ways to like improve the account and working together. Like for me, I'm really big on a consultative approach because I don't believe I know anything, same with like my team. But likewise, like when I we work with brands, like they know more about the business and their market. So as much as we research it, we're never gonna catch up. But that's where the beauty and that's where the magic happens. Likewise, with my partners, I would never like assume I know about web developer as much as my partners do, or as much as other areas of marketing that they do. So if you've got organic social or you know, it's just those other areas, like when you come together and everyone like gets to really own their space, you like you may have ideas and share them back and forth. But I find it works really well. I think that's what led me to the service aside earlier on, earlier in my career, because I felt I could really offer a lot of value, whereas I found a lot of the e-commerce brands had really strong operators that I was really just a person in the machine. And so you find really I love listening to them. I love seeing what you know these large e-commerce brands do, I love seeing what the new up-and-coming brands do in marketing. It's really fascinating to watch. And I'm, you know, I say them, I have a lot of my swipe files there, and I'm heavily like learning what I can adapt as well across into services, what doesn't make sense, but definitely being that sort of order taker, I have seen, and I've worked in agencies where accounts I've been on or not been on and seen other people, and you you do notice someone that if that's the working style, it drains the life out of some people. Now, I'm a big believer if something isn't working just to have a conversation. So if you don't want to work with someone anymore, I do believe the agency has an obligation to say, hey, this isn't working. Like have a conversation, hey, cool, this is what's gonna happen, this is the time frame, and then put it back to like just be very logistical about it so they know exactly what's happening, when it's gonna happen. Because it's a breakout, right? Any sort of breakout, just just everyone wants to know where they stand. Um, and then put it back to the brand because I saw a person not that long ago where someone in our industry was like bragging on LinkedIn, which it's quite surprising what people brag about, um, that they had a client that was still with them. I think it was like three or four months later, and how unpleasant it was and how toxic this client, and they kept working, and like we only have month-to-month contracts, but they wouldn't leave. It's like you yeah, but you only have month-to-month contracts. So you don't have to, and there's get like you have clauses in there that stipulate when you can leave. And I'm sure even if it's in there, having that conversation with someone, not just will they respect you, but the work isn't going to be done as well if no one wants to be doing the work. Like, that's not quality work that's being facilitated anymore. And I believe people who have the ability to have those conversations, even if it seems uncomfortable and a bit daunting, in the scheme of things in life, it's not it's not terrible. Like telling someone like, hey, this isn't working out is a basic adult skill set we all need to have.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

No, that's so true. I find like a lot of people have um a hard time with that, but it's you put it perfectly, it's really just like a simple adult skill set that like everyone needs to have. Um, and you know, both for the agency and for the brand, if it just feels like really rigid or toxic, like it's not good for anyone and they're never gonna get the results that they want. You and your team are just gonna be miserable. Um, and it's a lot better to just end that relationship and like move on to something that is gonna be a better fit for all parties. And kind of like you said, um, maybe in the moment they might have like some emotions about it, but like in the end, they're going to really respect that you were willing and able to do that instead of just like continuing a poor relationship for for the sake of it. Um, there was one other part that I was gonna I thought I was gonna mention. Um, okay, yes. Um and then the the other thing that you mentioned about the operators and like e-commerce being kind of like what like wanting to direct so much and like having people just kind of like say yes, that's something I've definitely experienced so much too. And honestly, a lot of I mean, I think there are just like a lot of egos in e-commerce. I think like you almost have to have that to be like some of those operators in the e-commerce companies, unfortunately. I haven't seen all the people like that, but even as I've you know, um try to get contracts for people in that space or applied to jobs, whenever I'm like overly confident, that seems to be like one of the only ways to get people's attention for whatever reason. So I'm not sure why it's just kind of like a thing in that vertical. But like another thing that we're gonna be talking on um with a with a different guest on a future episode is kind of like thinking beyond Roas. Um, that's something we kind of also touched on here, but I feel like a lot of reasons why e-commerce operators have that like mind mindset of just like take take the orders that I'm telling you to do is because they don't have like a cohesive understanding of like how to really measure things today and right now. A lot of those people or a lot of those brands, even like they grew up in what I like to call the age of attribution three or four years ago. Um maybe it's like five or six years ago now, when the attribution and the ROAS in the platform was like, you know, near perfect, um, if I can even use that word for any marketing veteran. But it was definitely a lot more correlated than it is today. And, you know, you could make decisions by just like kind of like seeing that service level data, um, and you kind of got into this habit of I know what I'm doing, I got into this position because of you know my confidence or whatever else it was, so you just need to be following everything that I say. Um and like we've talked about, that's just like not really a good relationship to get the best strategy. And if you have if you have an agency or marketing partner where you feel like you have to be that way, you probably didn't hire the right marketing partner. Um and if you haven't given like the grace to like really um listen to those ideas if they are pushing back, then you might want to take a step back and like really try to understand why they're pushing back against these things that may have been true three or four years ago. Um, because I think something else that we touched on on this episode was uh pushing back against the client just causes more work and more conversation and like a little bit more headache to really have their best interests in mind in that sense. So they wouldn't be bringing those things up if they didn't think it was gonna be best for you, best for the relationship, and um best for you know keeping keeping the client long term. So really kind of almost appreciate the extra work and thought they're putting into pushing back against you. Now it obviously has to be done in a respectful sense, um, but you should never feel like you have to give orders, um, and you should also never feel like that um it's it's bad or weird for an agency or marketing partner to be pushing back against what you may be saying, because if they really are in the platforms every day, if they really do understand everything as much as you want them to, um, they should have some level of expertise, even if it's just in like a specific tactic um that's more than what you may know as you know, just a just an operator or brand owner.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

Completely, completely agree. Um, I think where what I've seen in this instance, because I've I've experienced that sort of uh like I've seen it, like the order taking, but I agree with you. I think the agency and the client weren't a match. I've also seen, not just from the attribution side, I've seen on the e-commerce side some of the behaviors coming because the work wasn't being done. Like what they'd signed up for, like it's a month and a half in, uh, Black Friday Cyber Mondays, like around the corner, they're just a few weeks out, they've come onto this brand new agency, and in one circumstance, they were meant to be launching across two new platforms. They hadn't even been launched, they had a new campaign structure in Meta, they're 40 grand down, and Black Friday Cyber Monday is around the corner, no new creative had been made. It was just shocking. So that client was not happy. It was probably one of the most jarring calls I've been on, and it was the first time I'd met them. And I understood it. Like they were apologizing. I was the one who had to make the phone calls to them, and I'm like, no, I I get it. Like, I'm I'm sorry. Like I'm yeah, I can't, like, this wasn't my business, by the way. This wasn't as like, why is she speaking? It's just, I can see how the order taking came up because they have to succeed, right? When you have in all businesses, you have to, but it's it's definitely, I my perception is like tougher and the competition is higher. And so that work, I think that cleaning on is because that lack of trust is there, because they've worked with operators who haven't delivered what they said they were. They haven't kept the timelines. I don't mean timelines like you and I were talking about earlier of, hey, we need a couple more days. No, I mean like it's just not done. I mean it's like a month and a half, three months, six months, widgets broken, you know, they're thousands, like not just like five or ten, like like huge gaps out that they're it's impacting their business. And they're like, okay, if I don't operate this way and sit on top of them, the work doesn't get done. And it's I don't believe that's true, but I can see why someone else has that belief in an e-commerce business because I don't believe they've found the right operators, which when you said earlier in our call that you know, find someone, don't be stuck with just the big operators, you know, there are smaller ones. You've got to really align yourself and find someone who they own performance, who take responsibility. You know, those are key drivers for me. They take responsibility in the work they they put together, but they have that performance mindset. And if you're working, if there's someone who is in a performance role at the agency, all the founders and owners have come from being producers themselves. Like they've come from working in and being hands-on in the tools, so to speak. Like, if we're gonna throw like terms around, that's really important because they're gonna know how to do it. Just don't be with someone who's like, I've been in this for 10 years plus or 15, 20 years, and I've worked at these brands because that doesn't mean they know how to go in. And I have conversations with people in the industry who have agencies that, like, they're like, hey, I'm stuck, my performance is down. I'm like, oh, do you have someone who owns performance? And the answer is no, like, it's normally quiet. And I'm like, you need to have someone, that's their whole job, and then they can, you know, train the teams, they can have systems in place because you can have the best systems in the world. But you if the performance is down, you don't have someone who knows how not to just use a template strategy in place, you're gonna run into problems.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Yeah, and that is something I see a lot with the e-commerce companies, is they're like so afraid of like trying a smaller firm or going with a freelancer or whatever it is, they just go for like the big name brand agency who's worked with like countless other ones and it's been around for how many every years, and then you end up just working with these junior level employees, and either you've accepted that's just the reality of working with agencies, so you feel like you have to direct them, but also, like you said, in those environments, like you have things that are just missed. Um, I remember I spoke to a client who was spending 300 to 500k a month, um, I think maybe just on Meta, and they came to the call and they were like, one of the big issues we're having is that our deadlines or promos um that have a deadline on them aren't being turned off for like weeks after like the deadline is passed. And I'm like, I'm like, that's like that's what you're hoping that we can do is just like turn off the promos once the deadline is passed. Like I'm like, we can do that. I promise we could do that. That's fine. And they they were like paying that agency, I think, like 30 or 50k a month to not have something so simple like that done. Um so, like you said, Bianca, like those experiences are why a lot of those operators are like, okay, I just have to like take complete control and really tell them exactly what to do. Um, but again, like we talked about at the beginning, really don't be afraid of like those smaller shops, boutique firms, um, or like Bianca just said, the people who have come from those like larger agencies who have now like started something on their own because they usually are doing that for for all the reasons that we've talked about on this episode of just like seeing manipulated data, seeing things like those promos not being completed when they should have, being passed on to junior team members, and it can honestly be refreshing a lot of the time when you work with an agency you may not have heard before, um, but at least has the experience and uh the the key thing that we've talked about constantly is just like the communication aspect, which is something you can totally see before you ever sign a contract with them. So, you know, give those other other firms or or um agencies, agencies a chance almost, because you may actually have a completely different experience and actually be able to focus on all the other things that you're dealing with on your long list instead of micromanaging the partner that you're working with.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Absolutely, and something people may not realize, but when you work with some of these bigger agencies or work for an agency, you do need to fall in line with their principles and way of working. So just because an agency is operating a certain way doesn't mean that individual in there wants to operate that way. Like there have been ways I've worked at certain agencies that I didn't agree with, and it's just some of those things that you have to do. So when you do go out by yourself, you do have that opportunity. So when you see these like smaller boutique digital agencies, they're really operating from a place that's very different because they're not constrained to what these larger agencies do or what certain agencies have. If you see them like, hey, these certain metrics and they have to perform to a certain standard. A lot of the time they're just frustrated by it because they can have these conversations. They have the skill set, they have the experience, they know what the rules are, they know when to break them. And in terms like you'll see sometimes people say that only a certain like channel or platform works in certain circumstances rather than being someone who gives caveats. And I think it's really important to know because otherwise what you end up seeing is very like templatized work because they don't have the skill set understanding or bringing the psychology into it, the strategy into it, bringing the basic principles of marketing into it because they haven't developed that.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah, no, that's like a really, really good point. Um, the and I didn't want this to necessarily be a conversation of the big agencies are bad, the small agencies are good type of thing. Yeah. Yeah, some of the name brands are ones. you've heard of um are are doing good work but yeah um to to be honest so many of those larger agencies have like been bought out by like some other conglomerate who like doesn't really know what they're doing and like Bianca just said there's all like this red tape of like what they actually can say or like what they actually can recommend. You're not ever you know some of the employees at those places are just like frustrated with how things how things are going on um and just like can't you know give you the feedback that you that you want or they feel like you deserve. But like I I do I guess what I'm saying is there is like some truth in that a lot of the bigger shops do have this red tape or you know like I said just bought out from someone else and they're just like different than what they were with their original owner or like how they really like grew to become that size in the first place. So most important thing that we keep saying is just like really asking those right questions, really seeing how like the communication style is and like how they promote how they um approach giving feedback, recommendations and like problem solving. Because if you have a partner that you can trust and it's going to be honest with you and someone that is going to approach problem solving with a formula and like that's like the part where you can have a certain formula or process with things, right? Not necessarily the ad platforms because like they they change so much and there's nothing proprietary about what's going on in there. But the way that an agency or firm kind of like deals with solving problems when they come up that's really what's going to be determined determining factor if they are a good partner to work with.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Yeah I completely agree. Because it's it's one thing you do need you do need some processes like to have no it's just gonna take a lot of time everyone's gonna be like going round in circles. So having processes in place is really important but how they approach decision making and then also the type of decision makers they are like if you're someone who likes to solve problems or something about this industry too I found that a lot of people don't like it which I find pretty wild to work like if you want to not if you don't enjoy your job I there's lots of people in the world who don't like the work they do. So that's very normal I don't find that I just think it's what because of the work we do and it's a bit of a roller coaster. I've seen online people say it's the hardest job in the world which I do disagree with. I do not think it's the hard I think there's way harder jobs. I love it. So I'm on this roller coaster I love the thrill of the ride the high highs the low lows and then the in-between that's consistent and stable so I'm here for all of it. But the number of people I've worked with I've worked in like an agency where every single person including the owner was like I would have never got into this industry. I fell into it I hate it I would have chosen something different and for me I'm like just go do something different. It's not worth it. So that will definitely come out in the quality of work because even if someone is excellent if they don't love what they do you notice the work goes down to good. They start cutting corners as much as they can because they don't want to be there. Whereas if you find someone who's good, the work I've normally see is actually excellent because they'll put in the time and then that time compounds over duration of time to be excellent. So you definitely notice and you watch people as well. Like they start glowing they get so excited like this is my work and then they they'll send you email too but like I sent one yesterday with my clients I'm like oh we've shut up like week on week and he's sending me emails being like whoa like you just there's you notice there's a big difference in people who love what they do versus people are in it because they took a wrong turn.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Yeah no and I think that's a perfect note to end on um is just anyone no matter what job you're doing if you're passionate and happy when you're doing it the work and output is going to be so much better than if you're just like going through things like oh God I I can't wait till Friday like I don't want to be here anymore. And that's something that's you know definitely very true true in the agency world but really you know anything that you may be doing. But before we head out of here, Bianca, I know you talked a little bit about your agency at the beginning, but you want to talk a little bit more about the types of clients you're you work with or just how to get in touch with you.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Yeah absolutely so anyone can get in touch in terms of seedandarrow.com.au uh on the website I have book a call with me so you can access to my calendar book a time in that suits you there's also a number on there or a form just to ask any questions. You can also reach out to me at Bianca Lopez Valdez on LinkedIn uh reach out to me there. So please if you have any questions around what to look for before signing with an agency I post a lot of content along with marketing information and best practices. I also work with types of clients on the services side which I've mentioned a few times but in terms of I love trades, I'm a big trades fan. I really enjoy working with them. I also work in financial services I worked house uh worked house worked in-house for financial services so I've worked um at software for research ASX uh brand I also worked for fund managers before so that level of compliance I'm very used to I've also worked in other agencies across a number of like medical clinics um along with having my own uh clients in terms of plastic surgery also radiology so I've worked across the medical space as well so I've worked across like a different range of clients but a lot of them the real focus is around like profitability and cross-channel um advertising strategy so I'd say that's like the key difference and then how that feeds into the development of Seed and Arrow once was it created is for two things is taking responsibility in the work that's being produced and two in terms of profitability.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Awesome so yeah get in touch with Bianca um even if you don't want to reach out to her um she's you know super friendly and approachable so definitely don't feel afraid to do that on LinkedIn but definitely follow along with her content she posts a lot of great stuff there but thank you again Bianca for coming on this was great.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Yeah thank you so much Chris I don't really go here