The 3 Things That Derail Hockey Programs (Alignment, Feedback & Identity) | Matt Dumouchelle.

What separates great hockey organizations from the ones that struggle?
This week on 2 Many Men on the Mic, we sit down with Matt Dumouchelle from The Coaches Site to break down what actually drives success in youth hockey programs—from alignment and culture to feedback systems and leadership structure.

In this episode, we cover:
* The 3 biggest things that derail a hockey season
* The “Club Triangle” — aligning boards, coaches, and parents
* Why top programs build systems for feedback and accountability
* Using surveys as a performance thermometer throughout the season
* The impact of open borders in youth hockey on development and stability

If you're a coach, hockey director, board member, or parent—this is a must-watch conversation on building a better program.

👉 Clubs & organizations: We highly recommend connecting with Matt Dumouchelle. His work with top hockey organizations provides real frameworks you can apply immediately.
(Check out his bio + contact info in the comments below 👇)

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:51

And that's not I mean it's April this is our first show of April two thousand twenty six.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

And we uh we're at the end of the hockey season we're at the beginning of season hockey. It's a perfect time to talk about coaching uh all the things that go into hockey.

SPEAKER_04 1:20

And uh we gotta get into that.

SPEAKER_07 1:23

Yeah, we're doing a new machine. Um talking about the coaches and players and sometimes players. Um hockey and hockey in general, he's a writer for the coaches tonight, which is a great resource for coaches out there. Um trying to learn from other countries tonight. Um also can't even many uh organizations, not just in North America, because he is not a candidate. But also overseas, and um I think there's a great opportunity for us to learn some things and insight from Matt and the relationships we have. Um let's go ahead and move on, and you know, ladies and gentlemen, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Hey guys, thanks a lot for having me. What's up, man? Great to be here. Love the Red Wings flag behind you guys. All good over here.

SPEAKER_04 2:30

You can say something nice about the blues at any point during this broadcast.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

You know, I used to work in Owen Sound, uh, Ontario. I I worked there at the radio station there for uh almost three and a half years, and Jordan Bennington was the goaltender at the time that we were up there, or I guess it would have been a little bit afterwards. I did some some radio play-by-play and stuff with them. So uh got to know Binner a little bit as a junior and and always enjoyed uh watching uh the fiery side of uh Jordan as uh as a junior goalie and hasn't left him anytime soon. Well, he's certainly authentic then.

SPEAKER_07 3:06

Yeah, Binner definitely uh in this town has ingratiated himself and and most of Canada, especially with the Four Nations, although I think uh I think most of Canada would like a repeat or redo on February 26th.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

You know, that was a that was a great day for for hockey in in general, and I think that's gonna be one of those days that uh that we talk about and and remember for a long time, uh good or good or bad. Uh I was in Florida at the time visiting my parents um with my with my kids, and uh my little guy and I had a great plan. We were gonna go down by the pool and sing the Canadian national anthem after we won in front of all the Floridians, and uh we ended up staying inside that day. It was a little too too bad.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

Well, Matt, I'm confident that there's no shortage of topics that we're gonna be able to talk about. Uh the challenge would be how we can compress this into an hour time frame, right? Well, why don't we start uh by let's talk about the coaches insight. Let's talk about why you started it, uh uh why it's been uh something that uh has been a passion of ours.

SPEAKER_04 4:17

So some of our listeners might not know about it, some of our coaches might not know about it. So why don't you put the pitch out there and tell our audience a little bit about it?

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Yeah, so I mean the coaches site uh.com, if you haven't had a chance to go to it as a as a coach, truly is the the premier uh website um for coaches uh in in hockey, uh but in in all kinds of different sports as well. Um, you know, there's a lot of X and O drills on the site, but there's also a lot of leadership stuff. There's a lot of you know interaction uh between coaches uh in in group chats or posts that get shared. It's it's really become a one-stop shop for for anything to do with uh with hockey. And and you know, they're they're excited about expanding that and and uh and working with with different sports and different coaches and and all of that in the future. Um my piece of the puzzle was essentially they have a podcast uh there as well. Uh not to plug a podcast on a podcast, but uh they're called the The Glass and Out Podcast. And Aaron Wilbur, who's the founder of the Coaches site, hosts that and and he gets some outstanding guests from from all levels of hockey and experience and coaches and such uh on the show. So I have uh a background in media, uh, I've worked in radio for about 10 years, um, loved the show. And so I had sent him an email just kind of out of the blue uh and asked, like, has anybody ever interviewed you on the show? You know, not just as a I'm Aaron Wilbur, I'm the founder of the coaches site, look what I've done, but you have had one-on-one conversations with more high-level coaches, maybe than anybody, through the years that you've done Glass No podcasts, like just through osmosis and pure conversation, you've probably learned so much that you could share just upon reflection. Um, so we were fortunate enough to have that conversation. I still laugh about it to the day. Um, I was recording the show, and I'm right outside my kitchen window at the time at an older place that I lived at. And the sky is black. Like, I mean, it is about to rain dogs and cats and hail and everything else you can think of. And halfway through the show, all I'm thinking to myself is if the power goes out here, this guy's gonna think like, who the heck is this guy? Never gonna call this guy again. But everything stayed online at least. And then afterwards, uh, he had asked if I had ever done some writing. Um, and and fortunately it had. And he had said that we're, you know, we're looking at doing this idea called hockey factories where we do in-depth looks at some of the biggest programs in the world from a development perspective. Would that be something you're interested in? Obviously, an incredible opportunity, and it truly has been one of the great blessings that I've had in my time working and being involved in sports, getting to do hockey factories. So we've done 15 of them so far. Um, and that is, you know, I hop on Zoom calls and and uh I'm talking to a U13 coach or a head coach of a first team or anybody in between, parent, equipment manager, minister uh talked when we did Shatic St. Mary's. Um, so you know, we've done 15 of them now in Sweden, Finland, Germany, Latvia, Canada, the US, Switzerland, all over the world. And the idea behind it was you know twofold. And you know, what is it that Fro Lunda in Sweden does that makes Fro Lunda Fro Lunda, right? Like how are they that big in that community? How are they that huge and successful in that country, in the continents, in the world? And then what is something that they're doing, or what are things that they have built into their philosophy that I can do in Windsor, Ontario, where I am, or you can do in St. Louis, or you know, the biggest centers to the smallest centers, you know, trying to find little wins. It's the art of stealing is the art of coaching, right? So we're just trying to find different things that we can bring, ideas, um, you know, strategies that that these clubs do that that perhaps you could do at home. And and I've been fortunate enough to have some awesome conversations with some incredible people I would have never met otherwise. And you know, getting to work with different organizations now and coaches and players and in a development setting or an organization setting is me taking what I've learned and and trying to help create the best youth sports experience for every child that's involved in sport, whatever sport that may be.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

I love it. The art of stealing is the art of coaching. So we're gonna add that to our InSM list on the show. Great.

SPEAKER_07 9:02

So as we look at the coaches' site, kind of many of these, whether it's coach app, whether it's Huddle, or some of these other sites app, they tend to always gravitate, even to a high degree, gravitate towards the higher-level kid, the elite-level kid, uh the emerging elite players. Um what your actual different, or how are you trying to create an open playing field as you're talking to these different organizations, and make it relatable to folks who are how correct, or you know, maybe they're not quite certain of their path in hockey and that there's an opportunity to create a great experience. Why don't you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Yeah, I mean it's a it's a great question, and it's something that that I hold near and dear to my heart too. When I say, you know, I want to help create an environment um that supports every child that's involved, that means every child that's involved. That doesn't mean you know, we we as organizations in general always will put a little extra effort into the elite programs or the A programs or or SELECT or or whatever, whatever you end up calling it. But the you know, 10,000-foot view that that I'll I'll talk about and try to bring in the different ideas when when I'm presenting with groups and organizations and such, is that is the 5%, right? Like you're if you've got one select team, I you know, I use my son as an example. He's he's an eight-year-old, he'll be nine in May, and and he's he's a hockey player, and you know, he's in he played house league this year. There's four teams of 15 kids in his league, but is it they're not getting anywhere near the same training, the same development structure, the same you know, uh feel as the elite team that has 15 kids. So it's not to say we need to take anything away from the elite kids. The elite thing is a different topic entirely. But what I talk with organizations about and is is really creating a feeder system within yourself as an organization, where if you are giving the coaches that are house league coaches structure, if you're giving them a guardrails of what your expectations are at this year, you know, at this year we are at U9, our big focus is skating. We want at the end of the year every kid's strong skater forwards, every kid's feeling pretty good about themselves backwards. And every kid that's on your team this year needs to sign up next year because they had a great time this year. If we've given that U9 coach that that guardrail, he can use his creativity to teach them skating. And you know, we're we don't have coaches that just come out of the stands that have never experienced hockey or or anything like that for the for the most part, you know. So, how are we helping them? Because end of the day, if we're focused on that coach, we're gonna help develop more players, which end of the day, just through numbers in general, if you start with 15 kids at U9 select, it's not gonna be the same 15 kids at U18. So, are you pulling from your organization? Are you bringing in other people that are taking spots for kids that are within your house league program? You know, how is this all look under the umbrella of the organization as opposed to U10 Select or U13 AAA, whatever that looks like?

SPEAKER_04 12:43

And I think those are the triangles, you talk about that, right? Where we're we're referencing a club and a support an association has for its coaches, which then helps translate over into parents expectations, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:59

Yeah, absolutely. I I talk a lot about um things in triangles in in presentations when I when I work with teams. You know, I look at there's two different triangles that are that are attached together. There's the big triangle at the top is the organization, the coaches, and the parents. Like they all have to be working together and be on the same page and be clear with expectations on all four on all three sides. If one of those sides falls, the whole triangle falls. You know, underneath that is the coach player-parent conversation or triangle. If those three aren't on the same page, if those don't understand expectations from each side, and and this is being a give and take kind of uh relationship that you're building, that triangle falls. The one from the top is gonna fall, the whole thing collapses, and and you know, we we joke about it, but I mean, you could have a Connor McDavid, you could have an Austin Matthews, you could have a John Tortorella or a Scotty Bowman coaching. It's not gonna matter if the organization, the coaches, and the parents aren't on the same page, and then the coach, the player, and the parent aren't on the same page. Because one thing that we do generally, and I say that generally speaking, within an organization, we tend to select a coach and we're giving them the keys to the Lamborghini and telling them good luck. Where are we as an organization are responsible for that coach and putting him in the situation that we're in? Where in a perfect world, in a perfect organization, I think, or not to say that that exists, but what that looks like is the organization is given that coach guardrails, goals. This is what we're expecting of you to deliver this year at the end of the year when we evaluate you. This is what we're gonna be evaluating you on. You know, the parent then gets involved in that conversation with the coaches at the beginning of the year meeting or whatever that looks like. This year, our mandate is ABC. We win 10-1, we lose 10-1. We're gonna talk about how we played with possession of the puck, because that's the emphasis that we're having this year. Now everybody understands what that looks like. We're not talking in generalities or cliches like hockey IQ, or you know, everybody's gonna play if they put in their best effort, because parents by default are going to translate that to the benefit of their own child. And that's nothing wrong on parents. That's that's being a good parent. You know, okay, all this coach is looking for is for my kid to work hard and and have a great hockey IQ. Well, I mean, this is he'll be on the first line and the power play by Christmas, and now he's but but he's not now, and and I mean he is working hard, and he is, and this is what coach said he had to do, and now we've created tension within the organization that didn't even have to be there because we we created it ourselves, right? It's man-made, we didn't communicate that across the board, get a clear understanding with everybody of what that looks like, and now we've created an internal problem that doesn't have to be there.

SPEAKER_04 16:12

All right, I'm gonna hop on into it because you've put it out there, it's like feed the ball up. So, appearance you can't create tension within a hockey organization. Just put that out.

SPEAKER_07 16:26

No way.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

I say we wrap it up right now, guys. It's not gonna get any deeper than that.

SPEAKER_07 16:32

Yeah, if you can solve that problem. Um, let's talk a little bit about your journey at this point. Um, I think we've got a really unique uh way that you can come into this sport that uh gives you some very unique perspective, not just as a parent, but as a person who works very closely with some uh high organization.

SPEAKER_05 16:54

Um and then from that point, let's kind of work back to that you know, you know, three everything threes, hacking the games and three periods, you want to hack and get three goals, you know.

SPEAKER_04 17:06

And you've got three coaches and players sometimes um there's four lines once you get older than three. There's sometimes a player too.

SPEAKER_07 17:20

There's three there's three kids, there's three kids on a four month. But talk a little bit about your journey here as we uh as we wrap up this first segment.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Yeah, for sure. So uh as I mentioned, my my background is radio, um, and uh I was always had gotten into radio because of sports. You know, I I grew up you know in Windsor, Ontario. We can see Detroit from from where we are. I grew up listening to Ernie Harwell called super games. We don't hear that word very much in March. That's the problem. Yeah, but that's that was it. I I always grew up listening to Ernie Harwell called Detroit Tiger Games. Um, you know, uh when I was a kid, like that's to me, that's still the the voice of baseball is is Ernie Harwell. It'll never change. And you know, that was what had kind of gotten me interested in that. So I had always I worked in radio, always with the intention of working in sports. Um, I was very fortunate for what the radio industry is to work 10 years, uh co-hosted a morning show for for almost five years until they told me that I didn't anymore. And at that point, uh, you know, I had said, well, I've always wanted to cover sports, I'll always want to be involved in sports. I started working on the team sides. Um, there was a basketball team that launched in in Windsor, wherever it was. Um, started working with them. We won two championships to start that. Um, I worked with a pro baseball team and lived Bull Durham for a summer riding of buses from one place that we'd never heard of to another place we'd never heard of. And it was one of the best summers of my life. Um, and then I started working in hockey. I I worked with a junior C team and a junior B team, and and then I got on with the Leamington Flyers, who are now in the in the OJHL and was with them for six years. Um, we won a Sutherland Cup uh together, first time in franchise history, which was an incredible experience. Well, thank you. We're still still celebrating that one. Um, and now I you know I get to to do this um with watching my kids enjoy sports. You know, my I've got a stepdaughter that loves basketball and soccer. My my daughter is more uh into the theater and the arts and and all that, so you see like the alignment and the cohesion amongst a theater group is no different than what we talk about with a hockey team, but she plays soccer and baseball, she's on the school basketball team, she made her first basket today. Uh, you know, my little guy plays hockey. And it so I get to enjoy that through through them as well. And you know, I sit on the board in Riverside uh with our minor hockey uh program uh here, and and I get to do the writing from the coaches' site. So, you know, I'm I'll always be immersed in it somehow, and I feel like I've learned a lot about what makes good organizations good and bad organizations bad. And it's never it comes down to not being about pointing fingers. It's not to say you're doing a bad job or this organization is doing a bad job. That's why I'm I'm here. It's there's always ways to do something better, and the best coaches and the best programs and the best scientists, and and you know, the best of the best at whatever they do never want to stop learning and never want to learn from how other people do it and see what's doing on in the industry, and that and that's what I'm hoping to uh provide with with the clubs that I I work with.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Last minute of play in this period.

SPEAKER_07 20:55

Well, that's a great place to take a break, I think, and come back for a quick break as we unpack a lot of the things that you're doing on the coaches site, some of the great uh conversations um that you're having with the coaches all around the world, and how we can get this out to the masses and how many of those coaches, moms, and dads, older brothers and sisters, and grandparents who are out of the college and loving um.

SPEAKER_06 21:21

So if you've got the time to take a few bills, we'll be right back.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

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SPEAKER_05 22:11

Real quick before we jump back in, if you're enjoying Too Many Men on the Mike, hit like and subscribe. And subscribe on our YouTube channel. It's a quick click for you, but it helps us grow the show and keep bringing you great hockey conversations. You can also follow us on Instagram by scanning the QR code in the top right hand corner of your screen if you're watching us on YouTube. And be sure to download, follow, and rate the podcast on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast. Or go directly to our website, too many menonhe.com. That's the number two. Those small things from you help us keep delivering new guests, downloadable coaching content, and more from the rink. All right, back to the show. We're back with Matt Dumaschel from the coaching site or the coaches site. And uh we ended the break talking a little bit about your history, what your passions were, how you got into um you know working and writing on the coaches site and really helping to what really feels to me like an uh an aggregation of best practices with uh with hockey and and youth hockey specifically around the world. Talk a little bit about the deliverables and what you're hoping to deliver to um organizations, whether it's a junior team um like Leamonton that you play that you worked for, or whether it's a uh a youth hockey organization like maybe the St. Louis Rockets here in uh in St. Louis. Talk a little bit about that and what those deliverables are, and we'll we'll see where the convo goes from there.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Yeah, for sure. Um I think we've kind of touched on on a couple of key things uh in that for sure. When we look at hockey factories, the articles that I've I've done for the coaches site, um, again, I said there we've done 15 so far, and they each kind of take on a life of their own or a different type of story or angle. But there's a lot of key things in there that are repeated over and over again. And you know, communication is obviously part of that. And and I think to me, you know, organizations in general are not run by bad people. The people that are in it don't want to do harm or or you know ruin the reputation of the organization. I think what happens if is it's not taking the time to look internally and look at your systems and look at the way that your philosophy is built out, and and having that second set of eyes is is a line that that's used quite a bit uh uh in that kind of sense. You know, to come in and say, hey, when when there's a question about this, how is it handled? Or when you have a situation like this, who uh is that parent or who is that coach going to talk to? You know, finding a lot of uh again, I don't think there's big mistakes that a lot of organizations are doing. I think it's just little things that as they ignore or or focus on something else, different parts of the organization drift. So I think what the most important part of that is is there are ways to do this, to bring groups back together, to bring coaches, make sure the organization is aligned, you know, take that mantra that everybody has on their website that talks about wanting to develop great people and serving the community and all those things. What are ways that we're living that? Or maybe we're not living that right now. Maybe there's something else that we as a group do really, really well that that's valuable, that that we can highlight. You know, maybe we are always out in the community. Okay, why aren't we using our social media more to show us out in the community and and show what you know what you're you're able to be a part of if if you were to join a certain organization? The the alignment to me has always been the biggest thing within any group that I've talked to or that I've seen and interacted with, uh, good and bad. Um, you know, if you're not all aligned, if you're not clear on your goals and and ambitions over a course of a year, that's when the filters come in, that's when the noise comes in, and end of the day, we end up always transferring or defaulting back to winning. You know, so now that we don't have a benchmark for our year because our organization has kind of just given me this team, and I don't know what the U13s are doing, and I don't know what the U11s are doing, but me at U12 have got this team, and you know, it's very easy for coaches to put themselves in a silo and be more concerned about the practice the next day or the tournament next weekend, instead of you know, if if this child stays with our organization for their entire time that they can play youth hockey, I'm 10% of that kid's coach's you know, connection or interaction within this organization. So maybe I'm not the best at stick handling, but I can teach you how to use your edges and I can teach you how to do this. Now we're adding pieces to the puzzle, right? Because we have a lot more time than we make it seem like we do to kids, or try to convince to parents, or or whatever that is. So to me, that getting everybody on the same page in the same room, asking the same questions over and over again and dissecting that is not something that I think most organizations know how to do, number one, or are able to find somebody that can facilitate that. And at the end of it, when you say, okay, this is what we are, now we've got a direction to go in together.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

Yeah, yeah, and and and all that, uh that that's great. I I love as you were talking, I was thinking about where I wanted to go next, and where I wanted to go next is you mentioned it, uh, the the associations um maybe don't have a playbook, they don't know where to start. So it's part of what you do when you work with organizations coming in and saying helping them kind of get a plan together, uh, so that an organization can have a plan and then can align coaches to the plan. It kind of seems to me like one has to come before the other, and maybe the association is the starting point, the first triangle, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Exactly. And and I think you know, it's funny when when we break things down into those different types of levels like you're talking about, each of them are so crucial to the other. You know, I I will be the first person to tell you that the coaches within an organization are what that organization is. You know, no matter what, obviously there's no coaches, there's no game, but who those coaches are, how they carry themselves, what they represent, what they're teaching, like that's that's the whole thing. But in saying that, the organization above it, if it's not full of people that are pushing in the right direction, that have the right objectives, that have a mission in mind, that are you know worried about long-term development, but also, you know, yes, it's great that we were able to teach this kid how to shoot a backhand or drivel a basketball or throw a fastball. But at the end of the day, that that kid is going to be somebody we're putting back into our community that may be going to school here, that one day may open a business here that may work for somebody at some point in their lives. You know, um, one of the things that I presented, I kind of go on off track uh with this with this too, but in in the same sense, you know, the 0.01% of the professional athletes in the world that are playing right now are probably not the best in their age group, realistically. That's the second part of that is you know, of that group, when we talk about a youth sports organization or the players in general, you know, 45 to 47 percent of them at some point in their lives are gonna be parents. You know, 92% of those people at some point in their lives are gonna carry a full-time job. So they're either gonna work for somebody, work with somebody, or you know, own a business and have many people working for them. So again, when I talk about having those organizations being able to examine that and break that down into what they are, you can build that out, and then your coaches can live that every day. And your parents and players, who are the ones that are investing the time and money and all of that, are are reaping the benefits from a system that everybody understands uh and and has been put together from the top to the bottom.

SPEAKER_05 30:46

Drew and I come from a unique uh perspective in that players, coaches, parents, we were also administrators for a youth hockey organization. Um we were both served on a board, and for the better part of almost a decade, eight, nine years, um we ended as Drew left as president, I left as treasurer. What we have seen is the path is littered with good intentions, and it's understanding how to create a culture where parents can help to guide and bring their expertise to bear. But when we talk about accountability, how does an organization, what are the tools, what are the tactics we can employ to hold a volunteer coach accountable who's rushing to make a 530 practice after work so he or she can be on the ice with their kid and 12 other other strangers' kids? Um and where do we how did how do organizations lean in to support while also maintaining expectations, like you said? You said something earlier about it doesn't matter if we win or lose this year, but we want to make sure that we have that we're we're we're playing a support game all season long, and if we can develop that, that's the win. How do organizations convince parents from all different walks of life who have all different mindsets and all different um uh definitions of what success is like, and then push this organization forward? What tools and tactics can you use? Because what we found is that you could have great intention and great um uh great environments early in the season, but then post-Thanksgiving or post the holidays and Christmas and what have you. Things to the wheels fall off. Yeah, they tend to find it. What are what are successful organizations doing that you can share with our with our listeners? Because we we talk to and work with a lot of organizations ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

One of the the key things to that, and and you know, when we talk about communication, again, it's a buzzword of it could mean anything. What does it actually look like? You know, but you're you're communicating throughout the year with your coaches as an organization to get a feel of you know the what temperature you feel in the room, what what you know, what the parent group is like, you know, who's coming to you with what, and you know, at least having a sense of what that is. A few organizations they work with, especially in specifically in Europe, we're big on surveys. And I know we we have a thing here about surveys or or something about it, in you know, the idea that I'd love to say that I don't think this coach runs a great practice, but when I hit send, there goes my son or daughter's ice time immediately, right? The the in the fear that you're gonna say too much or or whatever it is that is gonna lend your less ice time to your kid, or your the coach is gonna hate your kid, or whatever it would be. But what they're able to do is use it as as again a thermometer to see how how the the parents, how the players, how the coaches are feeling throughout the year. So you send these out four times a year, you send them out at the beginning of the year, you know, how's everybody feeling coming into it? You send one out at Christmas, you send one out just before the playoffs, and then you send one out at the end of the year. It's almost the same questions, it's the same general idea. But the most important part of that, and this was something that was spoken to me from uh one of the programs that we did at Jergarden in in Sweden, was you know, it's just as important what you do with the answers that you get than getting answers. You know, we send out a survey to 15 people, maybe seven of them, eight of them, if you're lucky, send something back. Four of them say it's the best coaching experience they've ever had, four say it's the worst coaching experience they've ever had. What are you doing with that information? If it doesn't mean anything to you, then you're asking the wrong questions, right? You know, how about being more intentional with your answer? What a guy who's a big mentor to me and somebody that that I've leaned on through this process is a guy named Rick Tracy, who's uh with the Edmonton Oilers and amateur scouting director. You know, he had always told me that we have to deal in absolutes. You know, do you think your child is developing as a hockey player this year? Yes, no, why? Why do you say that? Because if you tell me it's because the coach runs a bad practice, that'll pique my interest. I'll see what else I see in some of the other answers. If the answer to the next question is also the coach, if the answer that, you know, okay, now we're creating something, maybe we can consider this for what it is, you know.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

And those questions are uh prescribed. Tell me if I'm off here, based on the organization's objectives and their plan, right? So you're asking questions that align to your plan to uh confirm from your audience that you're supporting your plan.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Right. You know, at the beginning of the year when we had a parent meeting, this is what we told you we were, right? We're just making sure that we are what we are, but we're also what we told you that we are, right? You know, how how is this shaping out for everybody and finding that out different times throughout the year? Because, like you said, you know, everybody's gonna have a pretty positive outlook at the beginning of the year, Christmas will be decent enough, playoffs. It's gonna be, you know, hardcore, and end of the year, Lord knows what you're gonna get back. So, again, what are you doing with the answers?

SPEAKER_03 36:49

I like the absolute, but I like the follow-up even more, and why?

SPEAKER_05 36:54

So, so here's where I struggle a little bit, and let's get a little let's look a little controversial, let's talk. Here's where I struggle a little bit. Um as an organization, and then as a group of an age group, as you as you look at each age group, and and shouldn't there be standards that we first adhere to? So let's say at 6U, we're gonna make sure that no matter how good your kid is, good with the with quotation marks for those of you listening to us on Spotify, quotation marks, or how not good your kid is at hockey. By the end of the year, we're gonna be able to teach these kids how to hockey style. By the end of the year, we're gonna be able to teach them how to catch a pass from ten feet away and make a 10-foot pass. By the end of the year, we're gonna be able to have them be able to lift the puck when they shoot at six shoot.

SPEAKER_03 38:00

Let's let's figure out where we have outcomes-driven plan.

SPEAKER_05 38:03

Correct. Now, we get to December, we put this survey out, and little Johnny or little Julie's always little Johnny. Little Johnny or little Julie's mom and dad are like, well, you said at the beginning of the year that my kid would be able to do anything.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

It's only December. It's only December.

SPEAKER_05 38:22

And your kid doesn't come to practice every week. And, you know, so so this is where you have to have like this, you know, it's a 50-50 proposition. Actually, it's a 33-33, and then I'll call it 34 proposition. 33% is the parent, 33% is the coach, and 34% is the player. Um, so yeah, it's 100. Um so I think that as much as you have these surveys, and ultimately, look, the parents in hockey are the and the kids are the are you calling the customers in some degree, because they are, but you have to like if you say, Hey, I was expecting this outcome, and it's like, well, let's take a look at, let's do a reverse survey here, and and you know, coaches, how are you rating your kids, or how are you, what's that environment like? It's I think it's very difficult for us to, and this is where we've fallen to you know, you you get into these situations where and we've lived it, you know, my kid's not progressing at the level that he or she should. Well, what is your definition of that progress? You know, where are you getting that expectation from? And so don't you think that the organizations, and there's these great things out there called USA Hockey and Hockey Canada and the Swedish Federation and the Finnish Hockey Association that have developed these standards, shouldn't we be starting there first and then be allowing the kids to uh you know either stretch it, meet it, or recognize that maybe there's there's a disconnect? I mean, how how do you do that? Because that to me has always been the most frustrating thing is you have out you have expectations that maybe aren't aligned, you have organizations that don't set standards, um, and then you don't have a clear path for the coaches. So, so where does that how do how do you how how do organizations fit you know fix that?

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Yeah, I think one of the things that um I've I've heard and and kind of develop when I'm when I'm co working with coaches or organizations that really works is is what I refer to as a pre-mortem. So this is you know, August, end of August, your board is together, everything's about to start turning around, and and and off we go. Stop at that point. What are the three things that are most likely to happen that are gonna get in our way? You know, because like you you kind of said and and kind of got into that, right? Great question. So you could you can constantly uh kind of kind of build off of that or or not have any of those certain expectations, whether it's throughout the year or or at the end of the year or middle of the year or whatever that looks like. But in that progression, what do I expect is gonna go wrong this year? Well, we're we're probably gonna have an issue with parent about this or that, you know. Again, we're getting into asking why and and dissecting things. Well, why are we gonna have an issue with this parent group? Um, you know, this, this, this coaches that have been there before. Okay. What were their complaints then? Why were they a problem last year? Okay, they weren't communicated with. We didn't do a clear job as an organization to say at the end of the year, these are the standards and this is what it's gonna be. But checking that on a regular basis throughout the year is gonna see if we're if we're getting there, if if we're dropping down, you know, what's the feeling here and there, and if that's something spread within the organization, we take that back, and next year we try to do it better and improve it for the next group of kids, right? It's I think organizations will speed things up in if we've got a problem here, we also have a problem here, here, here, here, here, here. You know, instead of jumping in all kinds of different directions and trying to solve all the fires at once, what are the three things that are most likely to go wrong this year? And then just walk it back. Keep asking why, keep asking why, because somewhere in there is going to be something you can change, and it's not gonna be grand, it's gonna be an adjustment of how we explain something or how we define something or whatever that is, but you walk that all the way back, you haven't solved the problem you were worried about, you've solved problems along the way again.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Last minute of play in this period.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

Matt, there's a great called Y Store. Uh, you're making me think of it with your watch.

SPEAKER_05 43:08

We'll talk a little bit about how uh we not only coach hockey, talk hockey, administer hockey, play hockey, we also have a band. So, you know, that's a long that's another story. Um I want to continue this conversation. I think it's fascinating to me how the questions of what could go wrong, um, and that's this pre-mortem aspect. I I think that that's something that is uh that probably a lot of clubs don't do enough of. Um, we've got to pay another bill. So if you've got uh a couple minutes here to sit tight with us, we'll be right back and we'll finish up here with Matt Dumichel of the Coaches Site. Well, that segment of Too Many Men on the Mic was brought to you by 5B Designs. St. Louis hockey families and business leaders. If you need custom gear that stands out and stands for something, it's time to meet 5B Designs. Found a Shannon Brahini, a proud St. Louis mom and entrepreneur. 5B Designs is a woman-owned small business that brings purpose to custom apparel. Whether you're suiting up your youth or high school hockey team or leveling up your company's branded swag, 5B delivers top-notch quality with a personal touch. You need a team store, no problem. Corporate polos or event giveaways, they've got you covered. 5B makes it easy with fast turnaround, flexible service, and designs your players or employees will love to wear. Check them out at stores.inksoft.com forward slash 5B designs. That's the word five. And if you are watching on our YouTube feed, go ahead and scan the QR code on the top right corner of your screen and see what great gear and great service looks like.

SPEAKER_03 44:46

We're back here with Matt DeMichelle. Matt is with the Coaches Site. That's www.thecoaches site.com. Matt, as we were sitting here uh on break, I was thinking about uh uh a challenge that I think we both encountered, and I'm sure you probably encountered it too, where you've got a youth hockey association that has volunteers. Maybe some of them have have a hockey background, many of them may not have a background. And let's say you're an association that's large enough to have a hockey director, somebody who's played the game that's grown up. I can imagine you probably encounter this. We have where you've got a board that's saying, This is our plan, this is what we want to do. You've got a coaching director that may say, Yeah, I hear you, but maybe I'm not listening and really I'm focused on some of the hockey things that are there or that I know. And uh, and and I'll listen to the board, but you know, talk through some of the challenges of that, because that is a challenge I think we've encountered between uh volunteers and then people with hockey backgrounds that are in hockey director leadership positions.

SPEAKER_02 46:03

Yeah, for sure. And and you've hit on a great point in probably uh an entire episode on its own, you know, when when you get to not just even motivating, I guess, some volunteers or or coaches or you know, board members that have been there for a while, that have been kind of running through the motions and and it's kind of turned into what it is, you know. Again, you you can you can't put a finger on on that problem, and that is not one conversation away from being sorted out. But the important thing that's that's in that too is is again just kind of getting is getting all the way back to the the interest in even doing this. You know, in this day and age, we've we've got so many things to distract us and so many other things to do, or or so many other things that we think we should be doing. You know, you've been a board member here for 20 years. What has kept you engaged and interested in doing this? You know, if if you can have those conversations to see even where they're coming from, like the commonality that we work through in in any youth organization, group organization, whatever that looks like, is is you know the sole, the the most, I guess, beneficial recipient of what an organization that's run properly looks like. And it's creating the best youth sports experience for all the kids that are involved, right? We got into hockey as kids. We want to be hockey directors because we want to give back or we want to share what we've learned, we want to help the kids. You know, why are you spend so much time here? The volunteers have been coming there for 40 years, they just love seeing the kids running around in the hallway or whatever that looks like, right? At some point, it's all going to connect back to the the idea of either giving back or or helping the youth and giving them an opportunity to play a sport or do an activity. You know, there's a source back there, and you try not to get too Dr. Phil about it, but you know, there's there's a way to bring that back to why we're all involved in the first place and walk that through afterwards.

SPEAKER_03 48:27

Yeah, yeah, what I'm hearing you say in so many ways is um uh don't lose sight of while we're all here. And uh if you've got a coaching director, um they may have their intentions, which is uh to share some of their hockey knowledge, but realize that other people that are part of your community also are there for a good reason. Uh and they may not be aligned to uh having on-ice skills to be able to coach. So how can we work together to come up with a plan? Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

You know, everybody going into that picture and saying, you know, being honest with themselves as the volunteers, listen, I don't understand hockey the way you understand hockey. You know, you do hockey and I'll take care of registration or or whatever that looks like. But you know, that that commonality ends up being creating that that area or that space for for the kids to enjoy. You know, you can always bring it back to a memory or something like that that that drove you to that sport or or that connection. And again, this isn't like a sitting around the campfire kumbaya kind of moment, but you know, you're you're doing this to give back to whatever community it is. Let's do the best job we can together so that that kid that doesn't end up needing to use the power play in life that you designed so well needs it to be a good leader at home or or you know, a good leader when they go to university or or whatever that looks like. Let's let's create that experience for the kid that they'll always come back and remember the time they played youth sports in in St. Louis.

SPEAKER_05 50:13

So anybody that didn't listen to the first part of our podcast knows Matt is definitely from Canada now because he said university and not college. I haven't said A once.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

I've been very careful.

SPEAKER_05 50:25

I think I've actually said it a couple times more than he has. Um, so these youth hockey organizations, specifically um across the country, are becoming more um more business-like. Uh I mean, let's face it, they're taking in revenue to register and pay for ice and provide facilities and coaching in some areas in excess of a million to two million dollars a year. A lot of organizations are building facilities, whether it's rinks, whether it's off-ice facilities, they're working together with municipalities. And so what is the level of success? I mean, it parents are going to come and go. Volunteers are going to come and go for the most part. As their kids go through, they could move, their kids may decide next year they don't want to play the sport anymore. So, what are in order to maintain a level of consistency? Um, and I when I say success, what I mean is an environment where the kids are excited to come back and play the next year because that has to be the ultimate goal. What should organizations be doing? We see some organizations hiring um administrators or executive directors to go along with people who are coaching. Uh it's become, I don't want to say the word business, but it has become very business-like in a lot of the day-to-day responsibilities. How do you maintain as an organization you know, the a successful, you know, through line to keep that that culture going and at the same time not lose sight of what's most important?

SPEAKER_02 52:07

Right. I mean, that's that's a great, that's a great question and a great scenario, you know. And again, when you're talking about a mission statement, if you're if you're talking about a mission, a mission statement as an organization, you know, what does that truly mean? What does that look like? And you know, we talked earlier, you talk about things in threes, you know, uh, what does that look like if if we were to say, you know, we are uh community-minded? Well, in in three ways, how do you describe community-minded? You know, what does that mean? How are we able to dial that back to to end up being you know, three words, three phrases, however you want that to look? This is what we stand for: family, fun, competition, you know, what whatever you want to pick three random words. You use that as your North Star. You use that as when we're making a decision as a board or as a coaching director. Is this in line with those three things? It's not what's more popular, it's not who's gonna benefit from this and that. It's you know, are we are we walking the line when we said these are our three things? Are the is this what we're doing because of the three things that we're working through? And it it it happens and it and it, you know, it takes some time to develop, but but you start to see that. You know, in Ontario, we just introduced open borders for the first time. So, you know, it doesn't have to be my neighborhood youth program. I can go wherever I want. All the stories that you can imagine are true. There's probably multiple examples of it happening in the GTA or or some of the bigger centers all the time. But and at the end of the day, we've turned this into a this is better for the player. The player can go wherever they want, the player parent can go wherever they want, and we're not spending enough time looking at this as an organization saying this is the moment that we get to say we stand for A, B, and C. If you're gonna enroll your kid in our organization, these are the three things that we will guarantee will happen throughout your entire experience here, you know, and then you're using that as the decision maker when you're when you're looking to make big decisions, smaller decisions. Is that in line with those three? Because end of the day, like you said, when you know the hockey players come and go, the parents come and go, the board members come and go, uh have we upheld our part of the agreement to stand for the three things that that we say we stand for?

SPEAKER_05 54:53

Well, it's interesting. You you bring up the open borders, and and when you talk about Sweden, for instance, it's the exact opposite. No matter what your child exhibits on the ice, from the time they're six to the time they're 12, they're playing with the same kids. Right. There is and and it allows them to develop that sense of community. Um, granted, their population is a little bit different than certainly you know, the United States and and and also Canada. But I I liked what you said there. And what we see a lot of, especially as as we've gotten to a point where some of the kids we've coached have you know ended their youth hockey journey and they're either playing junior or college, or maybe they're deciding to come back and help coach. I uh I think building that community and then building a pipeline of future coaches who want to be maybe they're not gonna be a part of the organization they grew up with because of where they live, but they want to get into coaching. I I had two former players reach out to me and ask about figuring out if we can find a place for them to coach this summer. Now, yes, they needed gas money, but there's other ways they could do that. I think, you know. Um, so it's interesting. I'd love to peel back that onion a little bit, but I think we'd definitely be here for another another uh another episode or two.

SPEAKER_02 56:12

No, but I I do I do want to say something on that, and and and it kind of ties in line, you know, with with that sense of pride and and when we talk about the logo on the front and and all of that. You know, one thing that I've always envied where I am again in Windsor, Ontario, like I'm you know, just across the border from Detroit. I'm 45 minutes from Ann Arbor. You know, like I grew up a state of Michigan boy from Michigan.

SPEAKER_05 56:36

Michigan's in two final fours right now. One's a frozen four, one's a final. I knew it was coming. I'm just saying, you know, we might we might have their hockey puck sitting up.

unknown 56:48

There we go.

SPEAKER_02 56:49

That's great. That's very funny. But you know, the one thing I've always envied is is where you went to college is part of your DNA, right? It's part of your identity. You know, guys that that went to Michigan, the most beautiful woman in the world could walk by, but if you find out she went to Michigan State, she you know falls pretty quick. My wife went to Michigan.

SPEAKER_05 57:16

Let's not say Ohio State. We'll say Ohio State.

SPEAKER_02 57:18

Ohio State, perfect. So, you know, that's you know, what's the woman in the world did go to Michigan State for correct? So you already took her, so she they're they're all gone. But you know, it's it's the pride of of what that that stands for and what that means. An organization in Europe, uh, countless ones, you know, I'm talking Fro Lunda in Sweden, Joker in Finland. They're talking about the, you know, we hope that that that child grows up to that teenager, what uh what have you, as somebody that enjoyed their time so much here that when they're older, maybe they want a volunteer coach. You know, when they're a parent, they would want their child to go through this program. Maybe they end up owning a business so they sponsor the team or they buy season tickets to the first team. You know, it becomes part of the DNA of how that kid grew up. You know, I think what one thing that we underestimate sometimes, which is is hard to believe because of you know being coaches and living that all the time, you know, the kids that you guys are involved with, outside of their parents, maybe their teacher are probably the most influential people that that child is around at some of their most important ages. So, you know, it doesn't matter again where you came from or what your background is from a hockey relations standpoint. It's getting down to that part where you know we're creating an experience that we hope a six-year-old, the nine-year-old, whatever that is, remembers until they're 60, until they're 90, and and talk so highly about the time that they spent there.

SPEAKER_03 58:56

I love it. Matt, thanks so much for spending time with us tonight. I have no doubt we could do part two, part three, part ten. And uh uh between the two of you guys, you can cover all of the state of Michigan and the surrounding areas. Perfect.

SPEAKER_05 59:10

I know the 401 and 402 very, very well. Yeah, yeah. From Wapu Island and Campbell Street down to Olet. Oh, so you saw everything then. Everything in between, every Gulf, London. London is one of the coolest towns you can ever go to. The Armory, um, you know, you know, uh, what was it, Crazy Joe's?

SPEAKER_03 59:30

Um Do I need to leave?

SPEAKER_05 59:32

No, come with us. It'll be great. We'll show you around. Matt, thanks so much for joining us. If you guys, um, for those of you listening, you want to check it out, the coachesite.com, um, great resource. Look up Matt Dumichel, read his articles, listen to his podcast. Matt, we'd love to have you on again. And uh thanks for spending time with us tonight. Anytime, guys.

SPEAKER_02 59:53

Thanks again for having me.

SPEAKER_04 59:54

Thanks, Matt.

SPEAKER_03 59:59

Wow, digging deep into the Michigan and Canadian category. I tell you, yeah. I knew you could do it. I you just had a partner in crime then this week.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:09

It could have gotten really bad. It could have gone, you know, we could have been talking about patin. We could have been talking about Don Cherries and Galaxy. Galaxy was the off, Galaxy was kind of the off the the beaten path place that if you uh if you had Canadian friends and if they happened to be female, they would say, Hey, why don't you come over on a Wednesday instead of a Thursday or Friday and we'll take you to a real bar.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:33

So uh uh did you ever have a Canadian girlfriend?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:36

Uh I told a lot of people I did. He thought she was. Uh I I I had uh there were instances where there were repeat visits, but uh and it sounded better if she was Canadian. It was a lot easier to get over the border back then. You know, nowadays you need to have a passport or passport card, but back in the 90s, um it was a lot easier to go back and forth. And so in fact, I had uh had relatives that lived in Canada. My grandmother used to take us over to see Aunt Stephanie and all that stuff. And so you know, um but yeah, uh just a great conversation. I I we talked about when we started this podcast about focusing on the positive, you know, focusing on the 90, the 95% when it comes to talent and what hockey really means on a youth basis. And we talked about focusing on the positive aspects, not the crazy TikToks and Instagrams and Facebook posts. And I think Matt um and the coaches site have a great opportunity to to kind of mirror that mission as well and aggregate best practices and and really at the end of the day, you know, creating a safe environment and an environment where the kids and parents want to come back.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:56

Yeah, and I I the triangle is a good analogy, it's a good way to think about it. Uh, you can call it triangles, you can call it threes, you can call whatever ism that you want to create. But uh there are three legs to success. And it's the organization and it's coaches and its parents working together. Yep, and and you love it in peace and harmony, and so uh we're gonna stay focused on achieving peace and harmony.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:22

Peace and love, ringo star. So, you know, it's been a it's been a week, it's been a minute since we were last together. Um you know, a lot has happened as far as the hockey world is concerned. Um, you know, my older son's team, we made the trip out to Westchester, Pennsylvania. And um, God, they it was it was a season to celebrate, you know, winning a regular season championship, a playoff championship for the Central States, the state championship to go to nationals. Came up a little short. Um, obviously, you know, there was some heartbreak uh because a lot of these kids are ending their journey. But I had a chance to witness a group of kids and a group of parents um led by a great coach, frankly. And it was a drama-free year, and the kids didn't want to leave. People were parents were debating and do we try to get a flight out? Do we try to get home early? The kids said nope, we're staying. And it was one of the best. Uh it was it was really a great bookend to a phenomenal season. And for me, uh an awesome, awesome time to spend with my son as he ends his youth hockey career.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:30

And congratulations, you've run the gauntlet. You've uh you've gone the whole journey through 18U. Uh, I wish my weekend story was as good as yours. Uh, I was doing spring uh house projects. So you win up.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:45

I got you know, it's great though. You get home on a Saturday, you know, I told my wife we got home at like one o'clock. So there's plenty of Saturday left. And I go, man, we got up at 5:30 in the morning, and you know, and we're just gonna relax. And uh, you know, of course, you know, the honeydew list now carries over to this weekend. Exactly. Um, so you know, great time though in the spring here in St. Louis specifically. We've got spring hockey um in full in full uh full full spring, I guess is that the right way to say it yeah, we got B team, we got prep for high school, we got kids at club level that are um uh having the opportunity maybe to look at things like open district for the first time, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:30

Or maybe thinking about uh uh how they develop this year and what that means and what kind of player they want to be next fall and what they want to work on this spring to get there. So great time to reflect. Um I wish it could be a great time to get out of uh spring house projects, but you know, no such luck, no such luck.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:52

Well, last minute of play in this period.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:56

We're at the end of the game. I think we've won this one again. Uh, great guests again. Thanks again to Matt Dumichel from the coaches site for joining us and talking all things hockey, hockey organization, hockey coaches, and culture. Um, coach, we've got a lot of a lot of things going on this week. I'm gonna be on the ice a couple of times. We've got high school Ledou B team, Ladoo Prep. Um, can't wait to take some of these great opportunities that we learned and talked about today and put them in action. But uh, you know, with that, um I think we are uh don't forget to follow us on Instagram. Go to our website, too many men on the mic dot com. That's the number two.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:38

Go blues. Go blues.