Don't tell the kids... some parents regret parenthood

Don't tell the kids... but we stumbled onto something this week that we couldn't stop thinking about. There are these anonymous groups online — thousands of parents, pouring out the thing nobody says out loud: that sometimes, they regret it. Parenthood. All of it.

And our first reaction was, how could you? How could you look at your child and feel that way? But the more we sat with it, the more we realized maybe "regret" is just the word people reach for when they don't have a better one. When you're nursing a baby in a blizzard, collecting firewood alone, wondering how this became your life. When you've shed so much of who you were that you can't quite find her anymore. When everyone keeps telling you to enjoy it because it goes so fast, and you're just trying to make it to bedtime.

So we went there. We talked about the having-it-all myth and how nobody can actually do it all. About the loneliness of modern motherhood, and the village we've somehow lost — the one we caught a glimpse of in a Samburu community in Kenya, where no mother is ever truly alone. About sleep training and mom guilt and the quiet grief of disappearing into the role. And about how, even on the hardest days, none of it ever came close to regret.

This one got real. Come sit with us.

Pour the coffee. We're so glad you're here. 💛

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Need a break from your endless to-do list? Welcome to Don't Tell the Kids. We're two busy moms sharing the real, messy, funny conversations about life and motherhood. I'm Mel, mom of three, wellness nerd, an entrepreneur, figuring it out as I go.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

And I'm Siobhan, single mom of two, usually barefoot, and always saying yes to life. No advice, just honest conversations on and off the mic. So grab your coffee, hide out in your car, and don't tell the kids. Welcome to Don't Tell the Kids. Today we go straight to the question that gets you kicked under the table at dinner. Do you ever regret it? From the online communities where women admit they regret having kids, talking about the myth of having it all, and then on to a village in Kenya. It all reminded us of the community we've quietly lost. Pour your coffee, we're so glad you're here.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Alright, so you had sent me an email, which you already forgot about. That was such an interesting topic about groups of mothers who regret becoming mothers.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

It's like anonymous groups, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Anonymous groups, yeah. Apparently there's a Reddit thread that gets it's at 70,000 views per week. Which is obviously a whole lot. But that doesn't out also mean that everyone on there regrets being a mother. Maybe it's also people are being curious about the topic.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

I mean it's so hard to even relate to that at all. I guess there's times you could think, oh, if I didn't have kids, this is what my life would look like. But regretting having them, yeah. Of course they're anonymous. Because you wouldn't want your kids to ever know.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Oh, for sure. I do actually really love though that there's a place where people can be honest about that because I think that while it may be hard to relate to, I think there is some level of reality. And maybe that's maybe it's not fooly. I feel like maybe sometimes there's a part of people that think like, wow, this is way more all-encompassing, hard, whatever than I thought it would be.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Yeah, but yes, being a parent is probably the hardest job you'll ever have. But does that make you regret having them? I mean, maybe you're right, maybe it's somewhere people can go if they're having a bad day, but then I feel like it's goes to such an extreme. Yeah. It's not like, oh, let's just rant about our crappy ass kids today. It's like regretting being a parent. That's like a I don't know, I feel like for me that's such like a powerful statement.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

No, it is. That's true. It would be interesting to actually go on and read the threads.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Yeah, we probably should have done some homework and gone on there. Because you know, the best thing is I sent you that message and I didn't read the article. Oh, you didn't. Like I just read the headline. I was like, who are these crazy people talking about? Maybe we should talk about it. Because maybe it is just them ranting. I mean, I think it goes hand in hand though with the whole idea of like women having careers versus having kids. Yeah. And I feel like there's been such a pen like a shift, like, right? Like the pendulum has swung completely the other way where being a stay-at-home mom and a homemaker, that was like your job. Yeah. As a woman back in, you know, whatever time. But also is the economy where like the husband could have been the milkman delivery guy and still afford to buy a house. Right. Like it's our economy has completely shifted. But I also think I always view the idea of like feminism and that movement of giving a choice. Do you want to work? Do you want to be a high-powered career woman? Do you want to have the same rights and opportunities as men? Yes, absolutely. But then I think it's also turning into you have to. And now it's the idea of, oh, you have kids, well, what else do you do? Oh, you're a stay-at-home mom, oh, but what else are you working on? And I remember we had that conversation not long ago and crit with Chris also. Remember in the kitchen where you were like, you know, sometimes I feel like when I go to dinner with your friends and the, you know, YPO, the young professional groups, being like, oh my mom, you're like, I feel not that interesting.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

100%. And I don't know, maybe you can talk more to that and I mean I think I have a lot of thoughts on this. I think that um I specifically remember one dinner when we were in Chicago and we had dinner with another couple, and I didn't know them that well at the time. And the woman owns like a marketing firm, and they did not have children. I think they were just dating at the time. They're married now. And um And we sat at dinner, and other than like me being a stay-at-home mom, like literally, like I was not part of the conversation really. It was so interesting. And so I left there.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Why were they just talking about work stuff?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Yeah, a lot of work, and like Yeah, it was a lot of business. It was a lot of business talk.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

And um and I'm just a curious person by nature, you know. So I like like to ask a lot of questions, like, but I didn't really have any questions returned, which is fine. But I left there and I was like, oh wow, like that was the first time I had ever felt like in someone else's view, I was automatically uninteresting because at that time I was just and just is the wrong word, but in my head, just the stay-at-home mom. And so I think that I have definitely felt that and yeah, it's interesting, right? It's like I agree with you as far as like the right to choose. And it's also interesting, though, if you have this whole movement who's pushing for the right to do all of these things, yeah, but then someone's gotta forge that path, right? Or else you can't just push for the the option and then not do it. Yeah, you know? So I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

I mean, I remember when I was working at iconics, like 2008, 2009, maybe ish. I guess I got married in 2009. And a woman that I I worked with, she was my boss, and she got married the same year. And like a year or two later, maybe I remember her, I didn't have kids yet either, of her being like, and she's a little older than me, but her being like, I just don't, I don't really know if I want to have kids. I don't like I love my work, I love what I'm doing, I don't, you know, how does how would that even I remember like telling her, like, well, you know, there's no one way to be a good mom. Yeah. If you decide that you want to keep working and you get a nanny and you're showing your kids hard work and what that looks like, that's also a way to be a mom. Yeah. And I guess I always thought the opposite, where I was like, I just want to stop working, be barefoot and pregnant. And I think work was so crazy too. I'm like, that's what and then and I still agree with that sentiment. You know, there's not just one way to be a good parent, but I think the idea that we can do it all and have it all is not is not true. That's true. Like if you are at work for eight, nine hours a day, like there's you're you are not home with your with your kids. Does it say one is better than the other? No, everyone can do what they want, but you can't do it all. And that idea that you can be this mom who's actually raising their children every day, being at home and then going to work and being, you know, having this career, you there you can't do it. There's not enough hours in the day. If you're not at home with your with your kids and you're not being a stay-at-home mom and you're not being there always, which that's okay. I'm not saying one is okay and one isn't, but that idea that you can do it all and have it all, and then what, be a great partner for your husband also after you worked eight hours and now you have the kids at home and now you're supposed to be this partner also, and then also I feel like it shifts the dynamic of what the husband's responsibility is and what his role is. And I think maybe as I've gotten older, I've like been more interested, or I don't know what the right word is, in like the traditional family roles and trying to be like, all right, what does it mean to like be feminine, live in my feminine, not it's hard when you're a single mom, there's obviously a lot of like masculine things you have to do too. But I just feel like this idea that you can have it all is kind of dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

I think the okay, so there's so many things parts of that too. So I think you can do it all to some degree, but you can't do it all 100%, right? Yeah. So something always has to take second place.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

And the real reality is the business world is not set up for moms. Like school pickup is you know, depending on your kid, like it can be as early as I think 2 30 to late is like 3 45, but that does not give you adequate time to work. I mean, that's just reality. And like if you're I mean, if we we take our kids to school, whatever, they drop get dropped off before 8 30, get picked up at 3 30. And if you're supposed to work out and shower and work during those hours, that's not enough time even for that stuff. So I think that there's definitely something that always has to give because and yet, you know, often I think working moms they put their kids in after school after school uh activities. Yeah. And so then that can get you until like five. But even that's really hard, right? It's like it's hard to cram a whole career into a school day even with aftercare. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

I mean, I always have this argument with George, he's like, Well, I don't understand. Like you're so smart, you could be do this and this and this and this. You need to just work more and make more money. And I'm like, who on earth, like, okay, so are you gonna pay, are we paying a full-time nanny to then do all the things that happen during the day? Yeah, like picking the kids up, driving them here. Joplin's not baseball practice early, gotta get them, pick them up from school early, and now drive him down there. Or Ilya needed black Converse for her dress rehearsal yesterday for a dance, and she didn't have them and forgot. And I'm like driving around finding Converse yesterday and just things like every day that come up. Yeah. Who does that? Even if there was someone else that could go do that for me, like let's say I had a full-time nanny. Yeah. Because I worked and I was a you know executive or whatever. Even if you have some full-time nanny that can do that, does she also? I don't even know how this works. Like, did do they also manage the kids' lives? Are they on all the group chats? Are you still or are these moms that are working still getting these group chat messages, being like, oh, wait, hang on, nanny, can you go run and get this and this? You're like, there's still part of your brain as a mom. And maybe it's just because that's how always how I've lived. Maybe I don't know how to separate it. Like maybe there are working moms, it's like, here, they have someone that helps them with everything. Yeah. But then on the flip side, how much money are you making to then go pay someone else to run your kid's life? Yeah. And then when you look back on it, how many years from now are you like, wow, I really missed out on that part of motherhood, or maybe it that part doesn't matter?

SPEAKER_01 10:57

I don't know. I think that depends on the person, right? I think that like some people are really career driven, right? And then, and so that really matters. And so the time that they are able to spend with their kids, I think it's quantity, quality over quantity.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

And they're like, How can I utilize the hours I have? And really, that's what like three hours a night, maybe, and an hour in the morning, probably. Um, but that's just reality for a lot of people. I remember actually in Chicago, I remember sitting Chris down at one point because he was like staying at the office so late, and he was like just it felt like he was gone for work so much. And so I spent it.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Was this four loco days that time?

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Yeah, fusion. And I think he was kind of in a bad place with his partners at this point already. And so I felt like he was like needed, he like thought he needed to be in the office because he felt like he was like missing out on decisions if he wasn't. Yeah. And um, and it was so interesting because he's what he said to me was he was like, he's like, but some parents see their kids way less. And he's like, I know a guy who literally doesn't get done with work every night until like 7 p.m. So he only sees his kids on the weekend. And I was like, wow, and like, okay, but is that what you want? Because that's like not what I want for my relationship with our kids, right? Yeah, but that's when I I'm and Chris.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Was he trying to like rationalize being at work late? Like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

And I think to his point, there is always someone who works more, there's always someone who's around their kids less. There's always someone who can like who you can justify that you're what you're doing is okay. And and honestly, at that point, I was like realized I'm like this your relationship is between you and the kids and God. Like this, I I can't and and this was just like a very small window of time. Because as you know, Chris is very active in the kids' lives. He picks the kids up, he takes the kids to school, like we have a schedule, like he shares, yeah, he does so much. So this was just like one little thing. But but I think that that's what can happen when you live in these like places, especially I think cities where people work really late, and that's like the culture, and that you get wrapped up in it, and you don't want to be the first one to leave the office. And so you're you're balancing it the best that you can, and it's maybe better than someone else you know. And so that's what it's like.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

So isn't it kind of funny, like how the you know, how this the timing works, where it's like when we're young, we're supposed to be building a career, having, you know, you have all this energy. This is when you're gonna build up the money, so then you can retire later. But it's like unfortunately, you have to do that while the kids like the most important part of their lives. Right. And then what, you have all this money saved up and you can retire when the kids don't need you anymore? 100%.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

It's like so backwards, it doesn't even make sense. It's so true. Yeah. And Chris has realized that he said like before, like, I don't wanna, I don't like he's very mindful about even like travel and what he chooses to do. He's like knows. He's like, you you know, as as the kids get bigger too, and you see, you see how fast it goes, and you're like, I only have whatever, five summers left or something with Brooks until like he moves out, or yeah, yeah, and it becomes very real.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

There was an article a long time ago, Michael had sent it to me, and it was essentially the article, I'm gonna butcher it, but like this chart that this guy made saying, like, if you're I think it was like if you're 30 something years old or whatever, and it broke down all these kind of important things that you'll do in your life before you die, if let's say you die at 85, whatever, forget the ages they used. But it was like, how many books does the average human read a year? So if you think you're only gonna read 30 more books ever in your life, what are those books gonna be? If you only see most people only see their, you know, parents once a year. Maybe it's Christmas. Who knows? Like a lot of people do that. It's crazy. It's like, so if your parents are, you know, gonna die, whatever, they had this one age, I forget what it was, you're only gonna see your parents eight more times. Yeah. Before they and when you look at it that way, you're like, wow, yeah, those moments really matter. They do. I'm literally gonna cry. You are gonna cry. I always cry, it's the worst.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

You're gonna cry, and I'm gonna throw a fork in it though, because it's interesting because I've had this conversation with Melissa. I'm Melissa, it's like I hate when people are like, enjoy it because it goes so fast.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

She's like, because like in the middle, in the minute though, that you're in it, it's sometimes it's really hard. And yes, you know that it's fleeing and you know that they're growing, and you can appreciate that and still be overwhelmed at the same exact time.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Yes, I agree. I don't think it's like, oh, be grateful for everything because it's not gonna be here that long. Like it's life, and you get stressed, and you it's better to just live in the moment. But I do think that idea going back to the spending time with the kids. Yeah. And you know, I have a friend of mine who I work with a lot, and she d doesn't have kids, and you know, we're always working on projects, and she's like, I don't understand. Can't you just get someone to pick them up? Can't you get someone to go do this? Why do you have to do this? I'm like, Mia, I enjoy doing it. Like, I like, do I really like sitting in my car for five hours in Miami traffic? No. But would I rather have my kids sitting in an Uber or like with a driver and being what? Sitting on a phone. I mean, my kids don't have phones, but you know, like looking at an iPad or I feel like that time in the car, it's like they're trapped. They have to talk to me. Maybe we just listen to music together, but at least we're like, you know, fighting over the radio station, whatever that is, whatever we're doing. Um it's time. Yeah. No, I agree with that. And yes, could I get X amount more work done? Sure. Would that amount to me earning more money? Sure. But at the end of the day, like, yeah, sometimes it's stressful and struggle, whatever, but feeling just comes with it.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Yeah, I actually made a new friend recently and she's single and what?

SPEAKER_02 16:45

You have new friends?

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Well, I'm not a really good friend because I don't see anybody, so it probably won't last.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

How dare you? It probably won't last very long.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

She's gonna break up with the other. I mean, basically she was like, you know, we were trying to get together, and uh, she was like giving me availability, and it was literally like after work hours, and I was like, and I said to her, I was like, honestly, like I so appreciate and I get it, but I really like to be with my family, so like I I really won't take time out. Very rarely will I take time away from them at a night to like yeah, and so I was like, if we can meet during the day, and she was super accommodating, like we we schedule a lunch, but but I get it because that's what I was saying too. It's not that I have to, like, could I get coverage? Yes, but do I I want to be there for those moments and I want to be the person that they see? Yeah, and you know, it doesn't have to be every single day, I would happily take help for my mother-in-law or whatever, but it's nice to be, yeah, it's a choice, and once you realize it's a choice, then you choose that it's it's a little bit different too, it's not an obligation.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Yeah. Oh, yeah. So scheduling things, and that's why this is so nice. Because we're like, all right, yeah, it's our a weekly hour to, and even our boys are even friends. We could easily just come over and hang out, but like there's always so much stuff going on. And you know, recently Melly and I were both in London at the same time. And oh, I just talked to you in third person, like I'm talking to an audience. That was really weird. When we were in London.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

I'm actually not Melanie. She's not here until I just turned on my like TV host persona, which we are so bad at because we don't do any of it.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

But I'm like, Melanie, just kidding. This woman next to me, my friend who I'm talking to, and you and I were in happen to be in London at the same time on your way to you know Africa, and we were illy and I were just in London. And we were like, wait, we're there on the same day. And we're like joking how even if we had tried to plan it, a like trip together would have never worked. Never. It's just because it was on accident. Because even that, even planning to hang out with groups of friends who the kids are friends. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Rarely is even hard, which is wild. Yeah, I know. But back to the original thing, I just wanted to go back to like the regretful parenting thing. I think that's a really harsh word, right? Yes. And I I don't like associate with that word either, because I can't imagine ever, like, I would never regret my children. Like, they're like the best.

unknown 19:09

No.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

And you still have a great, like, happy marriage. So how like, and I feel like people are like, oh, do you wish you never got married? I'm like, no, then you wouldn't have your kid, I guess you'd have different kids with somebody else. But like, how can you look back and be like, oh, wish that never happened? Right. Totally. Screw these two fuckers. Yeah.

unknown 19:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

You got the greatest gift of your life from your marriage. Like, that's that's a blessing. Yeah. But I think if you could change the words of regretful parenting to something else, maybe it would be like more truthful. Because I do know, like, there's times, especially, you know, as a new mom, I'm like, I remember actually we lived in Chicago and we came down um to Miami for a winter. We we moved down here for like three and a half months or something. And I had friends that came and visited, and Brooks was a baby. And so, you know, Chris was out doing whatever Chris was doing, and I was the one who was always with Brooks, which, you know, was again my choice. And I had someone who would, you know, babysit. But anyway, my friends came over, came down, and I was like hanging out with them for a little period of time, and Chris gave me a little bit of window, but I had a very short window because he was little and I was breastfeeding and all the things. And I remember being like, oh my gosh, like this it's like a lot to go from only taking care of yourself and only being selfish and doing whatever you want to full-time having this baby that relies on you for everything. Yeah, you know, and so I think maybe I don't know, but I wonder if like the regretful parenting is maybe like moments where mothers are like you have to shed who you were to some degree, or or at least your needs, your needs no longer come first, you know, when you have a baby, like that baby's needs come first. Yeah. And that's a big adjustment that I don't think that like is a lot, there's a lot of talk about. You know, and it's like it feels very isolating.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Well, I think we've talked about this before, like even when we first started this podcast, because I was like, oh, I feel like I I have so much to talk about and and women that in in my work, like, you know, that have that are kind of our age, the kids are a little bit older, and they are wanting to like start something and build something in and build, you know, a business or whatever they're doing. And the I the idea of like what you're saying is this it's like this it's not even a roller coaster, but some kind of you know, bell curve, or I don't know what the shape is of being like a woman, you have a career, maybe, you meet someone, you get married, you have kids, uh, and like you're saying, that shedding uh and shifting of who you are. And I don't know if I think like it's I feel like shedding to me means like it goes away and never comes back. It's almost like you have to like hide it or it changes. But I'm watching as I work with like so many of these women that uh it's like finding who you are again. Yeah, 100%. And I don't know, maybe there's an extreme. Maybe if you keep working and you aren't the stay-at-home mom, maybe you don't change as much because you're still keeping that version of you. Sure. But I mean, I I mean I definitely remember those days, especially you know, George worked a lot, he was home not that much, and being like at home with the kids, living in the middle of the woods. We had moved out of New York, and being like, oh my God. Yeah. If I have to build one more stack of blocks, I'm gonna smash myself in the face with one. Totally. You're like, I want to throw this. Unless the guy's guilty of being like, why isn't do do other mothers feel this way that they're bored to death and don't want to play trains anymore? 100%. Because nobody talks about it. Everyone's like, oh, it's so wonderful. And this, I think, maybe Instagram had kind of just started back then when the kids were little. I can't imagine new young mothers who are probably on Instagram, on whatever else, these apps, and looking at these like perfect, perfectly curated lives of these mothers that are, you know, in their white dress and taking the baby and the pictures, and you're like, that's not real. I hope they know that's not real.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Which is why we also need the mothers on Instagram who are like throwing the dinosaurs out the window and rage, rage, screaming and like crying, because like we have to see both sides of it because it normalizes it, right? And so that's probably why all of these visitors come onto these sites because during those moments that feel really shitty and you feel really lonely. Yeah, and you feel really bad about yourself because you wanted this baby more than anything. And and you know, and you have these moments that are just like so overwhelming or boring or lonely or whatever it is, that you can be like, okay, I'm not alone again.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

That part I get, and I and I can appreciate that. But I think the issue is that I feel like there is this like movement of sorts that's like the family doesn't matter, men suck, women can do it on their own. Why would you have a boyfriend? Like, I think um who was it that like maybe was it was it New York Times or some some or New York Times magazine? I I forget what somebody came out with this article recently that was basically like women don't need men. Why why would be having a boyfriend is I forget what the word they used. And it was like basically saying, like, women can now make enough money, they don't really need a partner. Why would you have a partner? You can do it on your own. And I feel like it's this whole thing of like regretting having kids. So okay, let's let's make this movement of like don't have kids. That's interesting. Because being successful in your career is more important. Like, I don't know at what point we thought that like raising humans is not the most amazing important thing you'll ever do in your life. Right, right. Because like you're building society, like we're continuing humanity. Yeah, 100%. So if you stop doing that and you stop trying to make that the priority, whose priority is it? The public school system, your daycare, to raise your kids and form who they are because you're at work all day. But again, I'm not saying yes or no to either. I'm just balancing this, trying to balance this argument of I agree that can be a good place to go if you are feeling lonely and need support, and being like, Am I the only one that is bored out of their mind being a mom and crying because you're exhausted and you know, not realizing, like, oh my god, is this all this pain you're going through worth it? Sure. Right. But the part of me feels like this idea of this whole, you know, toxic masculinity and men aren't supposed to be men. Yeah, if you have a man who's acting like a woman, you probably don't need them in your relationship anyway. It's like there's I don't know, I feel like there's such a like bigger picture, like a macro view of this, that's so many ideals that have changed that are tying into one another.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

I mean, there's so many issues with that anyway, because in all reality, that's the exact opposite of what our culture needs, because what we need is less isolation, more community, more connection, more like actual physical human interaction and touch. And you know, it's like we live in these very digital worlds, and that in itself is so isolating and damaging, right? We're not meant to we're not meant to be solitary individuals, like we need humans. And so to say you don't need a man is like so interesting and damaging because then it's like you're weak if you do, but it's not yeah, you know, need is the wrong word anyway. I hate the fucking word need because I was like told I was needy when I was young. Oh yeah, and so it strikes a chord every time because I'm like in what way?

SPEAKER_02 26:26

What did they think you were why did they think you were needy?

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Okay, mom, I adore you, so I'm sorry. I'm not meaning to throw you under the bus. Um I need deep connection. And so, like my my mom used to call me needy. She doesn't anymore because once I got old enough to voice it, like this really is like triggering to me and and why. But she felt like to her, it was like spending spending time could be sitting and watching like a football game. Well, I didn't want to sit and watch a football game, and to me, like that was not spending time, it did not fill my cup, like like so I would be angry because they make me come down because that was like what they thought was spending time together. And I'm like, if you wanted to have a meaningful conversation, like I'd love to do that, right? Like, oh god, Melanie wants to eye gaze again. Yeah, pretty much, exactly. And so I I was like this foreign like being that was like always like asking for something, but I didn't even know what I was asking for, you know? And so to them, it was like un unknown, so it was needy, right? But like as I've gotten older and understand who I am, like I just need a deep connection. Like superficial shit does not cut it for me. Like, I would much rather I can't sit here and talk to you about like politics and the fucking weather. Like, I don't care. Yeah, like you know, it's like tell me your biggest secret, and like what's go there. But I'll tell you all mine too.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

But but the point is that like Jesus is like, oh, this is why no one wants to come to dinners in our house anymore. Melody trapped you in the corner and asked what their biggest fear is.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

He used to kick me under the table. No, I promise you, I would be like talking and he would like nudge me like too much.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Too deep, Melanie. Yeah. But now for you when you first started masturbating.

unknown 28:13

It's like, really? Stop.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

I mean, I have some social awareness. I don't jump right there.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

But if you want to talk about it, I'm open to it. But now he actually is like likes that I go there because he feels the same way. Like it's so boring to talk about like the, you know, the stuff that you talk about at these I know. I don't know, family reunions or something.

unknown 28:36

I know.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Which actually is funny going back to your your the conversation we were having where you were like at that dinner in Chicago or whatever and you felt like not val like relevant because they were talking about business. But it's like, what could be more boring and surface than talking about business up? Again, if it's a business dinner and you're just coming along as like the arm candy, fine. Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

If you're going out with friends and they're talking about business the whole time, like, ugh, you're boring. Actually, it's interesting because since I've been in like other circles where like Summit, for instance, who, you know, is very conscious about bringing interesting individuals together. And I've been in these circles and it's never about business. It's never about the things, it's always like about ideas and like connection and like really interesting, interesting things, which I'm like, oh, this is what I was craving. But I didn't even know really what I was craving because I didn't have it until I experienced it. And then I was like, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

They're not talking about business. Like, not really. I mean, sometimes people have business questions, but like it's not like yeah, that's surface level. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

No, I agree. I agree. Yeah, I don't know about the regretting the I I I maybe we need to read this because maybe I'm being too judgmental about it of like saying you like regret being a parent.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

I mean, I it would be interesting to actually talk to someone who would they won't come on because you're gonna judge them.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

You just tell by the look I'm giving you. 100% want that person on here.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

I would be interested in having a conversation, like an actual honest conversation, if someone could really say, like, I regret having a child, because I can't imagine that you could look at your child in the eyes. I know, and and feel that way, right? And at the same time, there's a lot of circumstances, like people have a lot of kids, have a lot of special needs, kids have a lot of, you know, issues, like, I don't know, right? Like, I I feel like I'm somebody, unless you've walked in their shoes, that's really hard to judge. Yeah, of course. And yet I find the words very harsh too. I can't really imagine someone being like, I wish I never had this child. Like, how could you grow a baby in your stomach? Give birth to this child, nurse this child, love this child, and be like, I don't want you.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Is it like a list? We gotta go on it. I wonder if it's like a list, like reason 101. Like, oh, this explosive diarrhea up their back, like silly things, or is it is it like I didn't get to travel the world.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Or like I haven't slept in three months, and my husband and I haven't had sex for so long that we don't even know how to get back to it. I mean, I imagine it's more like that. Yeah, you know, because it's like the little stuff's little, but that stuff can compound to become bigger things, you know? Like it's not really about the diarrhea, it's not really about like the baby waking up, but it is about the fact that you're so sleep deprived that you can't see straight, or that you and your husband haven't had any time to connect for months. Which also, you know, is interesting because I know that I have a friend who like very much took on like this like she kind of like really lost herself in my opinion when she had kids. To the point where it was like she couldn't she wouldn't really travel, she wouldn't really leave them, she wouldn't really Which is fine, except for I felt like it made her unhappy because of that, right? Because of these rules that she put on herself. Whereas like if we could maybe lessen the demands and what it means to be a mom, right? Yeah, it's like I am I've had the privilege of being able to choose not to work, right? And with that, I still needed help because Chris is not interested in planning his work around my hair appointments and gym appointments, right? So and so we established that early on that I still needed help. And yeah, and the fact is, like I'm a much better, happier mother when I have someone that I can leave my kids with for a period of time so that I can remember who I am without my mom hat on, yeah, or connect with my husband without my mom.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Yeah, but did you always do that, or is it now that the kids are older and they don't need as much attention and and care? Like almost all obviously you can leave the boys alone at the house now if they're all together, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Like yeah, we I mean that we don't do it at night just because she gets scared, but I we could. It's always been that way though. I had a nanny in Chicago who would work like two half days for me so that I could go do like my appointments, and then she would watch them for like our date nights. And then my mother-in-law lived with us for seven years. So she all we always had, we were able to travel, we were able to.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

And you know, that's an interesting thing to talk about, also is the idea that the mother-in-law was living with you, and in so many other cultures, like our like the villa, we don't it's like we don't have the villages here anymore. Instead of you're living in this community, you're probably living where your family is, your mother-in-law, the parents maybe live with you, and then on the flip side, as they get older, they come live with you and you take care of your parents, yeah, instead of like we, you know, send them to homes or whatever to die alone, die alone. Yeah. That's not usually what we other cultures do. So we are alone, we are isolated. And I mean, when I had the ki the the kids and we were in New Jersey and we moved back to like the town where I grew up, because we were in New York, and then and which is near, you know, I grew up kind of near Atlantic City. And I'm super close with my family, but never thought I would ever like move back to that area because there's nothing. Right. And but then they were building this new casino, and George got offered to like do all the restaurant development in this casino, and he's and it he was like, Do you want to move back to and the beach house was near there too? So, you know, the beach house that George that George had. So I was like, Yes, oh my god. And like in my mind, I remember having this vision of just being like barefoot and pregnant, like walking around our little farmhouse, and and that was like my ideal. Like, and work was really I was traveling a lot and I was like, I'm done, like I'm not gonna work anymore, this is gonna be great. But then like being in the even though my everyone was nearby, we had our like village of sorts, but where we live and living nearby is like five miles away. You know, your neighbors, you know, my mom's house was still five miles away, my sister's house was like same five miles the other way. But it's because it's farm town and not it's not like a community where people are living on top of each other. But still, like everyone has their own lives. True. My parents both still worked. My sister had her three kids, and just still feeling really alone. Yeah. I get that. I mean, I remember it being like snowing one day and we had no firewood left in the house, and like nursing Ilya, a blizzard getting firewood, and I'm like, what happened to my life? Like that's what I'm saying. And it means that in those moments that these people go on these chats where I just remember being like, What is going on? My husband's been working nonstop for the last I don't know how long. I'm alone with these kids, it's a blizzard, I'm collecting firewood with a baby on my boob. Right. The little one is, you know, dressed up in his snow gear to come outside with me because he didn't want to stay inside by himself because the storm was scary. And I'm like, what is going on right now? How is this my life? Totally. Like we lived on the top of a hill, and I'm like trying to shovel the snow. And I'm like, Yeah, first of all, why is no one doing this for me? Right. And which again, you had, I mean, I don't really know why the idea of being like, I guess we live somewhere where like there wasn't like nannies, we lived in the middle of nowhere. I don't even know who I would have gotten to come over and do that.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

I didn't have one right from the get-go either. Like I learned through like through struggle essentially, like through realizing like there's times I need by myself where I'm not happy. Like, honestly, I'm just not. Like, I have a part of me that really needs to like have some time to myself or I get bitchy.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

I don't think I ever gave myself that grace. I don't think I ever was like, oh, well, I deserve to have this break. I deserve to go get my hair cut. I deserve to go. It was just like, no, this is my job right now. I'm a mom and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Yeah, and I think that's where a lot of moms go. And I think that during that process is when you can really lose yourself if you go down that path for too long and then it can make you bitter, and then all those things, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Which I mean, you didn't you didn't end up in that path, but I think that's how it starts, right? You like you can only like neglect yourself and your own needs for so long until it becomes like a negative and it it starts to like trickle down to you know, other areas of your life, whether that's being mad at your hunger husband or or regretting parenting, even not really, you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

So I think that that's the thing, and I think that's the beauty of like the being honest part. And maybe that's what people are finding on the site that like it's okay, it's okay to be these things because you can't, you can't neglect yourself forever, right?

SPEAKER_02 37:09

And it's like maybe that term of like regretting being a mom is more just the words they're using at you know, and it's catchy. Look, we're sitting here talking about it. So maybe it's you know, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Exactly. We're talking about it. Yeah. It's interesting though, we were in Kenya and saw so many different things. So in the Samburu tribe, like we were able to like essentially like see how these how the people like they own actually the resorts and the lands, like with this other um, they're not American, but with this other family. So anyway, the point is we went to the village, and it's interesting because you see these people live in these tiny huts that are literally made out of like sticks and whatever. However, like the guy grew up this way, and she was like, the people are happy. And she's like, and the one of the one of the tribesmen said he's like, you know, it it's not uncommon that if like someone's having a hard time with their kid and they need help with their kid, their kid would like come and like stay with you for a little while. And but these like those people are never alone, they're not isolated in a room, like, and so you think like, oh, how sad that they're living in this like mud hut. Yeah, but they're happy, they're communal, they're doing everything together. There's babies that are like strapped on their mom's back, the kids are all together, like they're communal living in a way that it's so beautiful that we have lost oh yeah, that we have lost, right? And if you think about mothering in that sense, like it would be very different because you'd be having a hard day or you don't feel well, and I would take your kids to my hut, which is right over the corn, so it doesn't matter. Yeah, and I would keep an eye on them, and you wouldn't be alone in it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

I remember growing up, and we had like uh my parents ran like a health food co-op. So, and back then, you know, it was like before Whole Foods was a thing, but there was definitely like a group of families that were all had like these kind of similar interests, like all most of us were all born at home, and we went to this like parent-teacher cooperative school, and my parents had this health food co-op. And my mom used to always like kind of had a joke where like she's like, oh my god, all of us, the moms, would always just be like, it'd be so much easier if it's just us and the kids we didn't have to deal with the husbands. But because it was such a community, like everyone would raise one another's kids and we would all be hanging out together all the time. And it's funny because it's like, does this stuff that we have really make us happy? Does and and I I was having a conversation with someone about this, not in terms of motherhood, but the idea of relationships and that the world is at your fingertips with these phones, and you're like, all right, well, why would I settle with this one girl here next to me when I when there's obviously thousands of women out there, I can see them on my phone every day. Totally. Instead of like cultivating and growing something that you have in front of you, like what does that stuff really make you happy? Like, what does happiness mean? And you know, I was reading an article recently and was talking about like the development of suburbs and like the mall culture and us always being in our cars and driving places, and versus in even in Europe now, like the town center, like you go and everyone you know is there having a glass of wine at you know four o'clock or you know, after their quote unquote workday is over. And you go and you talk and you connect and you still see people versus now it's like even think about we I feel like we have a great community of friends here in Miami. Right. But I'm driving, I'm doing kick pickup with my kids, right? I'm bringing them home or bringing them to their activities, and then yeah, we go home and we're alone. It's not like, oh, hey, let's all go back to our neighborhood and all the kids run around and hang out, and I'd be like, hey, I'm making dinner at my house tonight. Everyone come over. It should be amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I have a little bit of that where we are south of fifth, where it's like, all right, all the kids are running around the neighborhood, pizza at my house tonight, and everyone kind of runs in and out, and it happens not as frequently as I would have liked to. Yeah. But like, at what point are all these activities and the after-school stuff and making sure kids are always occupied? Yeah. Like, not great.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

No, I mean, we like that's exactly like we're we have community, but we are all running the same rat race in different directions. So the community is really scattered. You know, it's interesting when you said about the co-op of being without the without the dad, because we were talking to one guy and he's he's essentially a warrior in the tribe, right? And he said that his wife asked him to take a second wife, which is very common in their tribe because they said that the men get killed essentially often, so they will have babies with multiple women. But actually, the interesting part was he she asked him to take on a second wife, and he was like, I'm not ready. And she's like, No, it's time. And so she found three gave him three choices, and the reason was because she said, I need help. And so their their marriages are essentially um decided for them anyway, like their parents find them. So it's not like a love, you know, it's not they don't, whatever, it's different. But I was like, how interesting. She's like, I have to take care of the the goats and the sheep and the cattle, and I have all these kids, and I need another woman to help me. And so that's what it was. So funny. So funny, right? Which you know, you can judge from afar and be like all the things about it, but yeah, but from the other side sense, I'm like, she needs like a sisterhood. She's like, bring in a sister. I don't care that you have sex with her. It just needs someone to like.

SPEAKER_02 42:29

I don't care. Just whatever you need to do, buddy. Seriously, just take the baby. The goats are really rough. Just go do it. Yeah, but how interesting, right? It is you know what's really funny when you say that is a friend of mine was in New York recently and he had a meeting in New York, and he was like, Oh, I'm meeting up with uh this friend of mine, we've done consulting work together, and we're, you know, working on starting something. And I was like, he's like, Oh, I'm gonna stay at his house. I don't know which which house though. He's got like four different houses in New York. Like, you know, obviously the guy does well, but he uh kind of like you know, upper, upper, upper east side, but he's got like five different places. I'm like, why does he have five places all within what? He's like, Well, he has five different women that he has five different kids with. He's like, so there's five different apartments. He's like, but they all are like a family, like they'll all come over and have dinner together, like all the the ex like all the ex-baby mamas and the kids, and what so it's almost like this modern version. He's like, Yeah, sometimes like one mom will take all the kids and they'll all hang out, and then those the other they'll they'll go on like a trip together, and this mom will watch the kids because that couple went and Yeah, you almost need them bring bring them all under one roof. I think they may be, I think they're c all close enough. And he's just bought them all like you know, apartments or like townhouses all around that they're but it's like this modern version of a village.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

I feel like it would only work though if you got married like based on circumstances, not okay. Well, I guess whatever. If you're gonna have a partnership based on that, it's like right because none of these women work.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

He supports their entire life. They just, you know, they're having kids. I think some of them have new boyfriends, but so it's more transactional, I imagine.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

But they've got to mean it's like I want to do, I want to have one more.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

I haven't decided it'll be with a new person or I might have another one with this most recent baby mom.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Wow. That seems so complicated. Yeah, it's like I just love being a dad.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

I mean it's like I mean it can't work if you're like, I'm in love with you, because then you have all these emotions around it. But if you're like, okay, you're a good provider and a good I like to be around you, but I don't want to hang out with the old design. It's wild. I know. I mean, that's why it's like you can't judge unless you live it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 44:44

I guess yeah, to each their own, I guess. But it's funny because it almost feels like a modern version of that village.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Yes, of the tribe. Up from yeah, except for that we went in their hut and they like sleep like so many people in this tiny little hut you can't even imagine. So that part's a lot different.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

Yeah, but but they that is their reality. Yeah. They do they know better? Do they, you know, enjoy that? I mean, I love having all the kids with me in my bed too. The other you know, Ilya still snuggles and comes sleeps in bed with me. Does Ashton come still sleep with you guys or not really?

SPEAKER_01 45:18

I just never really let them come in to sleep with us. Like they he'll give them a pass every once in a while if it's like they're really scared or had a nightmare or like sick. But generally, no, he does not. It's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 45:29

I it's funny because I think I I mean I grew up, which is I guess very much in line with the whole homeschooled home birth commune thing. Totally. But it had like family bed. Family bed. All five of us would like sleep in the bed, the big king-sized bed together, until I mean I I should probably ask my mom. I don't know how old. I guess eventually we were like, I'm gonna sleep in my own room. You know, it's not like till I was in high school or I think even elementary school, not even that old. But Ilya still loves to sleep with me. And the other day, Jack and was like, Mom, you really need to make Iliad start sleeping in her own bed soon. And I was like, why? He's like, because she's going into middle school and it's embarrassing, and she's gonna get made fun of.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

I was like, but I love it. And he's like, Mom. I get it. You're single. Like, I totally if I if I was single, I 100% would let them also. And the dog would be in my pillow, and the house would be a mess, and that just would be what it is. But when I'm when you're in a relationship, I'm like, how do you have sex if you have kids in your bed all the time? Yeah, I don't know. Right? No, you couldn't.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

Yeah, and then like daytime sex, but that's not the same.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

No, and I'm like, that's an important part of a relationship. Like, I mean I mean your parents ended up getting divorced. Not that that's why, but I feel like in work to have a family bed and and does it take a toll on the relationship at some point?

SPEAKER_02 46:47

And even though my parents aren't together anymore, you know, they're still in the house together and they're friends and whatever, and they're almost like this weird, like they were still not not recently, because I think my, you know, my dad my dad has isn't like around the house as much now that we're older, but yeah, and we're not there as much. We don't all live there any, you know. When I used to live there, I mean, like we were all just always at my mom's, and my dad was there too, and they would like fight about the house, this and this and this. And sometimes I was like, oh my god, I was like, Mom, the the issue is you guys have this weird relationship where you're have all the fights that you would have in a marriage and all the bickering and all the things you need to do, but then you have no outlet to like make up later. There's no holding hands, there's no snuggling, there's no sex, there's nothing that balances all that. So it gets to the point where you're like, ah, he's so annoying. Why is he still coming over here? But then you're like, Why doesn't he come over? I need help with the pool. Oh, that's funny. So, and I'm like, well, you don't get the other side of it. And without that, it's your point. Like, without the the sex, without that connection, that's just a recipe for disaster. There's no like makeup time.

SPEAKER_01 47:47

You're just arguing and dealing with life all the time instead. Which will just, I mean, I, you know, it's like that's why in a relationship, in a marriage, you have to really be very mindful about carving out time for your relationship. Because my mom said this early on. She's like, people think babies bring couples together. She's like, they do not. No. They create separation and they create stress, and and they do, right? It's like so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

I mean, I remember like I always had the kids sleep with with me and and you know, basically they would just like nurse all night long and they'd sleep in bed with us. But I just like didn't sleep. I don't even know how long. And I remember it got to the point where I was almost like resentful towards George because I wasn't sleeping. And at that point, I'm like, okay, I need to like put Jacqueline's crib, he needs to like be in his own room, he needs, I need to work on his like sleep patterns. Cause if I'm getting angry at my husband because I'm not sleeping, like that's not a healthy balance.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

And I used to do the same thing for a variety of things. Chris was always very good to real like point out like this is your choice. Yeah. You're choosing this, even if you don't believe or see that you're choosing it, right? But you don't think you're choosing it sometimes, you just think like you're the victim because you're the mom and you have to do it all. But there are other ways to do it, right? And I think that's what it's about is like taking off all this mom guilt that we have to do everything and be everything for our kids, and we can't let them down, or we can't, you know, it's like there's gotta be a balance there.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

There is, but then I also think the idea that there is an option. If you're like, okay, I've been newborn and I'm just gonna make them lay in their crib and cry alone to themselves all night until they cry it out. I feel like it's almost going back to like the village that you were in in Africa, that it's like at the end of the day, we're like animals inside. Like there's these animal instincts, and to be a mother and want to nurture and nurse and have your baby next to you, especially when they're so little, the fact that we have almost normalized that idea of putting a little baby like in a crib alone, and if they cry, oh well, like they're crying for a reason.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

I agree, but I did do sleep training at some point. I mean, not when they're newborns, of course, but when they're maybe between four and six months old, like I let my boys cry out. And like I I remember sitting outside folks' room. Just crying. Crying. I cried. I know. But the fact was I got to the point where I was like, I can't function. I am like so sleep deprived, and I'm like not, I don't even like who I am that I was like, I can't do this. And some people I know, like I and I've heard sleep training is psychologically damaging. My kids seem okay, but who knows? You know, who knows, right?

SPEAKER_02 50:23

And on someone's talk to their therapist in 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

And honestly, that's the fact is I've actually I have told them you will have a therapist because we're all fucked up. I'm doing the best I can, but the best is never gonna be good enough. And that's just what it is. And I'm doing my best, and that was my best. I I had to sleep, and they had to be able to learn how to sleep through the night.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

And I remember I try, I I forget how old Giacomo was. He was definitely old, you know, maybe like a year or so where I finally was like, Oh my god, I'm not sleeping. And but I didn't want to leave him alone, yeah, for the cold cry it out thing. So he was in his crib and he would cry, and I would just like pat him on the back, like, it's okay, you'll go to bed eventually. It was such a long time. And I'm like, oh my god, oh my god. And I remember like call and I was in the room, and they're always like, No, you leave the room. I'm like, I'm not doing that, I'm not leaving him. It's so mean. He thinks we have never coming back for him. And I remember like secretly like picking up my phone and calling my sister and being like, oh my god, he's still crying.

unknown 51:17

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

And I was hiding like behind a pillow when I was calling her, and I was like, I don't know what to do. I and as I'm talking, and uh because I'm hiding and he can't see me anymore, he like falls asleep. I'm like, that little fucker. Yeah, he was just crying because I was there. Oh my god, totally.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

Like, I went about that the whole the total wrong way. So true. I actually must have been crying outside of Brooks's room when he was uh nap training because I remember when we moved to Miami, he was six months old, and there was like a really long hallway. And I decided I was like, I'm putting this baby to bed. I put on white noise in our room, and literally I didn't hear a peep all night. I ran in in the morning, he was happy as can be. I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

And then you're like, why did I not do this sooner? It's like, why have I been torturing myself for so long? Exactly. Yeah, I mean, you know that's the other thing about parenthood. It's like, who knows? I remember my mom said to me when I got pregnant, she's like, Schwann, you know, just remember the minute you think you have it figured out, they change. It changes. And you have no idea what you're doing again. And I was like, God, I think about even now as they're like getting older and they're going through puberty, and they're, you know, Jacmo's doing so many more things, especially because in our little neighborhood, he has so much freedom that like, like, like yesterday I dropped a baseball and I had to go pick up Ilia, and he got home like long before we did. And you know, he doesn't have a phone. He left his watch in the car, and he's just not home. And I'm like, I figured I knew who he was, called a couple called a couple friends, found him. I'm like, Jacquemo, if you call I know you're home. If you leave, you gotta at least leave a note. Like, I know we don't have phones and whatever. Leave a note, let me know where you're going. But he's been like going out and about on his own so much, and I'm like, oh, this this is I'm trying to just like let him be and do it and like have his space. I know, whole new topics. I know. Yeah. They change again. And and but I do think that idea of like the the having this like village remains important through even up through now. Yeah. Like the fact that I know like what four moms to call if I can't find my kids. Yeah, yeah. And I know that they're like riding around the neighborhood somewhere. Yeah. No, it's so great. And it's so great that I have that freedom. I know. It's a little. But anyway, do you regret being a mom? I do not ever regret being a mom. But now we maybe need to do our homework and check this list. Maybe it's not as brutal as we think as we think it is.

SPEAKER_00 53:37

I know we think it is.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

Yeah, 100%. But I have to pee, so that's gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Yeah, that's great, of course.

SPEAKER_02 53:43

Right on top. Jumping on your rebounder earlier, and I probably have to pee too. Mom life. All right.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_00 53:49

I love you guys.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

Thank you so much for hanging out with us today. We're really glad you're here. You can follow the podcast on Apple and Spotify, and we're on social at Don't Tell the Kids with a bunch of underscores. Hang in there, mamas. See you next week.