BE Rooted: Intentional Discipleship
Ever wonder what it really means to be a disciple of Jesus? Each week, we explore discipleship—personally, relationally, and organizationally—through both ancient wisdom and today’s realities. Whether you’re growing your own faith or shaping a community, you’ll find practical ways to get rooted in truth and live it out authentically. We may wrestle, we may laugh, but if you come curious, the Lord will meet you here. So grab your coffee—or your headphones—and join us as we discover what it means to BE Rooted in faith today.
BE Rooted: Intentional Discipleship
Owning your Faith Part one with special guest Sam Tawney.
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oday in the BE Rooted Podcast, Nick talks with long-time friend and mentor Sam Tawney about how he came to own his faith. We get a sneak peek behind the curtain of discipleship in action. Enjoy Part One of a three-part series. Stay curious, my friends!
Thanks for joining the podcast today. I am your host, Nick Figler. I want to introduce you today to a guy by the name of Sam Tony. He mentions in the interview that he doesn't like the word discipler. But that's what he is, to me anyways. He is the consummate discipler. He is the one who invests in the lives of others and he has invested in my life. He's also what I what I like to call one of my before relationships. He's one of those guys that has just been down the road that I am trying to go down in ministry. And he's been helping me through some landmines. He's been supporting me. He's been helping me to see some of my strengths and weaknesses and help guide me with with and along with the Spirit of God in this journey, in the Bee Ministries, and this podcast. So I'm excited to introduce him to you today. And I hope you enjoy the fluidity of this conversation. I don't even really truly like to call it an interview because it's just the way we communicate when we get together that we just um this is just what comes out of it. So I'm excited uh to bring to you the part one of this interview with Sam. I hope that it blesses your heart and encourages you and helps you in some way in your discipleship. So thank you for joining me. I hope you're ready to go.
SPEAKER_03Hey friends, welcome to the Be Rooted Podcast with your host, Nick Kugler, author, discipler, and your guide on this journey. Around here, we mix ancient and modern wisdom with real life principles so that you can grow deep roots and live out your faith intentionally. So let's stay curious and dive in.
SPEAKER_00Uh I say I was born in the north narthex of a church. I don't ever remember a time when I didn't go to church. And my folks were very faithful in taking us to church, very faithful in church. They served, we served. I started teaching Sunday school when I was in high school, little third graders, second graders, third graders, you know, stories you can tell, right? Type of thing. And uh went away to college. And when I went away to college, uh it was a time when I had to really start owning my own faith. Yep. And I'm a homebody by nature, and so when I went to Michigan Tech, I was 11 hours away from home. And that gave me a lot of time to think and research. And God put a couple of folks in my life that really helped me grow in my faith and challenged me about what do you really believe? And I think that started my journey on the knowledge piece of the Bible and Christianity. And got married right out of high school uh right out of college and started um doing things at various churches, trying to find a church to land at. We finally ended up landed at a church called Ada Bible Church, and there was about 75 people there at that point in time. It's a pretty small church. Yeah, yeah. And and and I think that was a divine appointment because that's where I met a man named Henry Schwartz.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And uh I thought I knew what discipleship was. I thought discipleship was more related to knowing the answers, like winning at Bible trivia. Yeah, and I could do that. Um, but he showed me really what discipleship was because he took me under his wing and he discipled me.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And when I first met him, my desire had always been I want to look at everything in life through the lens of scripture. So, like if I see a situation, I want to be able to go, okay, this in scripture relates to this.
SPEAKER_04And kind of bringing scripture into your reality. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00And into the reality around me, whatever that happened to me, my work, my family, my relationship with my wife, you know, all these type of things. And Henry uh was a guy who could do that. And so I kind of latched on to him and he latched on to me. And we walked, I mean, we still walked together.
SPEAKER_04So, can I say that that might have been one of the first times that the Bible really became relevant to your reality?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I for sure, for sure. And I think that's the beginning point of when I understood that discipleship was less about knowing things and more about taking that knowledge and that being converted into wisdom. Yeah, and that takes someone, when you're younger, that takes someone to help you walk through that process. So, you know, I we we started at ADA, and I was on staff at ADA for 17 years as an executive pastor, and we watched the staff grow and watched the church grow through that whole period of time.
SPEAKER_04So, just for the audience's sake, I know the story, I know a little bit of the story of ADA, actually, a decent amount. Um, just briefly, from 75 to how many attenders in in that amount of time?
SPEAKER_00When when I um when God called me off of staff, um, there was about eight to nine thousand. Eight to nine thousand. Four campuses, four campuses, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So I wanted to bring that up just simply because like Sam has a ton of experience in discipleship from from the the beginning years, let's call them, of like just lower, small, more intimate church, yeah, all the way through medium and and even into some megachurch. Right. So as you continue your story, you're probably gonna get to this, but you also have a lot of experience with microchurch.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but about that.
SPEAKER_00When when COVID hit, when COVID hit, um it God works in mysterious ways, right? I had had several conversations with individuals. Met one person at Home Depot, someone called me up and said, Hey, can we have coffee? Met someone in another in a grocery store or something, had four of these interactions where where people are like, I don't know what God's doing right now, yeah, but I feel I need to, there's something more. And and then COVID hit and churches shut down.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we all know what happened.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we all know what happened, right? And I'm like, these people need something. And so I started a house church with that group of people who were um asking questions. Yep. And and we were able to just meet together and talk through a bunch of stuff, look at scripture, wrestle with the issues that they were wrestling with. Um, and and that group morphed into another sub, another group. We added lost some and added some um in, and just trying to walk through what that looks like because I firmly believe one of the tenets of discipleship is relationship, and you have to be in people's lives. And I live out in the boonies, yeah, I live out north of Lowell, and and so I I'm on 11 acres, my next nearest neighbor is 150 yards away, type of thing, right? And so, yeah, I go to Meyer in Lowell and shop, and but I don't have kids in school anymore. So these relationships where you know you're you're kind of bouncing off each other in a community don't really happen anymore.
SPEAKER_04And even though you're in community, you're kind of like isolating, yeah, you're isolated within community, isolated these little pockets of feelings of relationship, yes, but no real authentic like depth to it.
SPEAKER_00No, and so you know, the house church thing really allowed us to dive deeper into people's lives, and there was enough comfort for them to open up and and and and you know, share things about what's going on. And we had a kind of a weird format in that it was like, tell me what God's doing in your life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you know, we didn't do singing, we didn't, you know, all the time, but the the basic thrust was tell me what God's doing in your life, because it was God should be doing something in your life as a believer, right? And and so I tried to set that expectation. And then as we set that, people began to share and and and I was able to work with people uh outside of that. And we had you know meetings outside of house church for people who were like, hey, I got this question. I didn't really feel comfortable talking about it here because I knew it wasn't a 15-minute type of deal. This one's gonna take a little bit. This one's gonna take a little. And and and so, and even out of that, um, started a couple of things that I call spiritual boot camp where I just recognized these young men who uh didn't really have a uh relationship in life, grew up in the church. Yep, they were me. Yeah, they were me. Yep. Uh had the knowledge, grew up in the church, could probably win at Bible trivia, went to Christian school, went to Christian college, you know, till felt there was something missing, yeah. And are like, okay, what's next?
SPEAKER_04You know, so just to add to a piece of your story, um, you've talked a lot about your church experience, but throughout this whole time, you're actually running a business and running a family. So like you're kind of bivocational all the way around. Oh, 100% all the time. So how many of these relationships are you having not outside of the church, but like because of your business and the people that you're interacting with there?
SPEAKER_00Few few few uh in terms of intense relationship. Um in uh one of the businesses that a partner and I ran, uh, where we had 35 employees, right? And and so a few of those we were able to uh enter into their world, especially when they were struggling in certain areas. Uh more than one time there was cry sessions where people were just at their wits' end and they had a little bit of faith and you know, to encourage them and to bring scripture into their life and go, okay, here's you know, thus saith the Lord type of thing, right? Um, and and so this is how what God wants you to believe at this point in time. And so, you know, I wouldn't say a lot of those relationships were deep discipling relationships, but it was mommy started there, yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I just I say this because I'm one of those. Right. Like I'm I'm I'm an answer, like it's our relationship started just through just business connections. Exactly. I got to know you. We were in a car. I mean, at the first time I had no idea you were a Christian. Right. You know, we were talking about business, we were talking about I mean, um cars and stuff, you know, and all that stuff. But then slowly I began to see you more often, we began to interact more. Yeah, and and then now I can say we do have a very deep relationship, very spiritual, very, you know. So I don't know, maybe there are other people that that are out there that have that same answer.
SPEAKER_00I think you you illustrate a real good point here, because one of the things that Henry taught me, and that was always my life goal, was to be able to walk into any situation, and regardless of where you were in your faith journey, and whether I had this much relationship with you or this much relationship with you, I could bring something to you that was Jesus-y. I'll just say it that way. I don't mean I hope that doesn't sound, you know, no, it doesn't. But it's Jesus-y. So some people are like, I don't, I don't even know where they are. So, like in the current one of the current businesses we run is we have a home building business. And so we see contractors in and out all the time. And some of them are fellow believers, I know them. Um, we can share that stuff on on a on a spiritual level. Others, I don't know where they're at. And so um I try and take the opportunities that God presents to at least cast some salt into their life. So, like call up a guy and say, Hey, where are you at? Uh, my grandma passed away. Yeah. And I look at that and I go, okay, what do I need to do with that? So how can I disciple him in that situation? And it's and it's as simple as, man, can I pray for you and your dad? Because he's been doing this, it's a drywall guy. He's been drywalling us for five years. And you know, so this is the first spiritual conversation I've been able to have with him, even though I try and have conversations with them a lot. Yep. Um, and that's the first one. And so that opened up the door a little bit, and and I hope it opens up more, but that's not my that's we'll see. Yeah, and that's not what I'm responsible for, right? I'm responsible to put this off in. So, you know, in I try and in every place that I enter into the world to disciple somehow.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Right. Well, I'm gonna share a bit of a um something that I share a lot with. I'm gonna talk to the audience for a second, just simply because you he you bring up a really good point. And one of the concepts that I've that I'll talk about probably in the future, but maybe even I've already discussed, and and that's this idea of secret discipleship. That sometimes all you're called to do is bring a little bit of Jesus into the situation or bring them to Jesus a little bit, and they don't always need to know. They they don't always know that that's what you're doing.
SPEAKER_00And they don't have to talk, right, and I don't have to talk about the vicarious penal atonement of Christ.
SPEAKER_04No, right, you know, because it's like bring them to a point, and then that point of maybe opportunity, maybe it's a point of crisis, maybe it's a point of curiosity, maybe like it's not always a traumatic thing, but so often it is something bad happens and and we're brought to the feet of Jesus, so to speak, and you've already have that persona and you've already have that. Well, he's invested in me. I'm just curious, like where's this coming from?
SPEAKER_00You know, and that does bring up a good point, too, in that you have to be integral in how you behave. Yeah, we have to pay our bills on time, we have to treat people justly and not find nickel and diamond to death. We have to be believers where someone goes, that's the kind of Christian I want to be.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Or that's what a Christian really should be. I've interacted with a lot that are like, you know, and I've had way too many stories of people that go, I don't want to do business with a Christian because they put a Bible verse here and then they stab you in the back when they don't pay you for 90 days. And it's like, no, that we're not gonna do that. Yeah, we're we are gonna be integral. And if I say I'm gonna pay you by the 10th, I am going to pay you by the 10th because uh that's my word. And and part of being a believer is being integral so that they look at it and go, so when you do go, hey, can I pray for your mom? Can I pray for you? Can I pray for your dad? They go, that guy's got a character that's strong. And I believe that when he says he's gonna pray for me, he actually is gonna do that. It's not just a platitude.
SPEAKER_04There's some trust in there. Yeah. And the more you see somebody being honest and a person of integrity in the business world or in your personal life or whatever, the more trust you give them in other areas. So one of the concepts that I that I want to continue to bring in this be-rooted thing is the idea of intentional discipleship. So one of the things that I think you really brought up here is is be intentional with your own 100%. Like being intentional with how you're following out the commands of God, how you're following out the precepts that Jesus has laid out. Like, this is how I want you to live your life. And if you do this, then you're gonna have some opportunities to preach the gospel. But if you don't do this, every opportunity you take to preach the gospel, you're actually kind of taking my name, my name in vain. Right. You know, and and you're actually hurting.
SPEAKER_00You forfeit a lot. You forfeit a lot.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and the the scripture that I I think of it, that Romans uh Paul speaks of in Romans is that you know, that the word of God is blasphemed amongst the Gentiles because of you. And he's talking to the Christians, he's talking to the church. He's like, So if you really want to have a good like witness, then you have to start by being intentional about your discipleship.
SPEAKER_00Don't be like the Corinthian church, yeah, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So since you kind of brought that up in your that, how what kind of habits and what kind of intentionality do you put behind your own discipleship through the years? Maybe what did you do early on in your faith that helped you? And then what kind of things are you adding or even subtracting to be intentional about your discipleship?
SPEAKER_00When when I was away at school, when I was at college, I had a lot of time. And because my future wife was in Grand Rapids, I'm in Houghton. Yeah, uh, I don't drink beer, I don't do a lot of weird stuff.
SPEAKER_04That takes about that, that takes out like 90% of the college activities you could take part in.
SPEAKER_00I would do Friday nights or Saturday nights, play basketball, or go to the hockey game or whatever. So I had a lot of time on my hands. So um I started a journey of what are the basic doctrines of the faith and where in the scriptures can I flesh out that doctrine. So I started with one premise. The Bible is true, nothing else that I've learned is true. I have to go to the scriptures and I have to teach myself.
SPEAKER_04So everything filtered through this. All other truth is filtered through this.
SPEAKER_00All of the truth is filtered through that. And I think that helped me, and I'll relate a story quick that one of the first um boot camp groups that I did, one of the things that I do in there is I go, okay, I want to help you develop your own doctrinal base. And so we start with a softball like baptism. What do you believe about baptism? And of course they could tell me what they believe about baptism, but I go, okay, go to scripture and tell me why you believe that. And one of the guys went, No one's ever asked me that question before.
SPEAKER_04Because so-and-so told me that this is what's true.
SPEAKER_00And that's exactly what he said. He said, Because I grew up in this culture and went to school and it was taught there, and I went to um college and it was taught there the same way. And so it's just, you know, this is what I believe.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And he like, he said, it was very challenging to me, but helpful for me to go to scripture and go, why do I believe this about baptism? And I think that's what I did when I was in college. Why do I believe this about baptism, about the church, about Jesus, about hell, about heaven, about the you know, uh resurrection, about all that stuff.
SPEAKER_01And I I had two years.
SPEAKER_00Um of the setting I was in, I was alone, I was by myself, um, I had grown up in the church, and I had a roommate, his name was Dave Edwards, and Dave Edwards, he asked me the question why do you believe that? Why do you believe that? Why do you believe that? Why do you believe that? And you know, I knew I could answer the Bible trivia stuff. But so, but it was all up here. Yeah, I didn't really own enough of it to go, okay, well, let's look at John, well, let's look at Matthew, you know, if you want to look at baptism, let's look at Acts, let's look at some of the epistles of Paul, and let's kind of walk through this and see what is the concept of the.
SPEAKER_04What's the bigger picture?
SPEAKER_00What's the bigger picture? You know, and and beginning to understand some more, but and that unlocks things, right? That unlocks things. That unlocks things about grace and mercy and justice and all these doctrines that you're walking through. It fills out your picture of who Jesus is, fills out your picture of who God is, fills out your picture of who the Holy Spirit is, even though that was that picture was a long time in coming, right? Because the the culture I grew up in, the Holy Spirit was God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, right?
SPEAKER_02You know, a member of the Trinity.
SPEAKER_00Right, right, right. And so, and so um it was a journey of, and especially the culture I grew up in was more uh we don't dance, we don't chew, we don't go with girls that do type of culture, church culture. Great people, yeah, love the people. It was this overlay of stuff that you just didn't do.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, I remember one time we went on vacation.
SPEAKER_04More about rules. As long as you know the rules.
SPEAKER_00We went on vacation to Chicago one time, and we got into Chicago late, and nothing was open except bats fine foods. Why I remember this, I don't know. But I remember this. And and that's monstered by bat buttons. It doesn't exist anymore. But my dad went in and to see if they were open and whatnot. He came out, and here you got, you know, three little kids just sitting in the back of the car going, we're sitting out here in the middle of Chicago, and he comes out and he goes, Okay, we're gonna eat in here, but we're Gonna go in this side because this side has a bar. And you know, here you have a 12-year-old kidney going, I'm just hungry.
SPEAKER_04Can I just get a single nuggets or something?
SPEAKER_00You know, when you it was a huge burger, which was really good, but that stuck with me from the vantage point of my dad was so concerned that we weren't exposed to that because that was the culture I grew up in, right? And so to learn this uh law versus grace thing took me a little while, right? And and just through a variety of circumstances a little bit. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, you we've talked before about intentional discipleship, and the Spirit of God's gonna do what the Spirit of God's gonna do. He's going to disciple you, right? And so I think that was my journey. Yeah. And in uh the very first small group I had went over to one of just a good friend, wonderful people. To this day, we still are friends with them. Went over to their house, opened the refrigerator, and there was a six-pack of beer in the back.
SPEAKER_03And I'm like, what do I do?
SPEAKER_00You know, and I'm like, so the the dissonance in there of the rule and the grace and beauty that this couple had. I'm like, okay, I gotta figure this out. This doesn't feel right.
SPEAKER_04Well, and I wanted to kind of bring it up because one of the things that, and I'm talking, I'm gonna go back to just kind of the owning your own spirituality thing. Just because I've been a youth sponsor, I've I've walked along lots of guys that are my own age. Like some of the language I hear use here is the the before, besides, and behind relationships. But I've I've walked alongside people that have gone before me, and they're and you're one of those guys. I've walked along a lot of guys that are going through the same kind of thing that I'm going through, and we're doing Christian life together. And then I've also had people that are kind of following behind me. And so I think one of the pivotal things that I've noticed in all of those scenarios is that is that capacity to own your faith and and start asking yourself, like, even the heart question, like, why am I doing this?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think the inf in the inflection point for me really was you're gonna be on your own.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, you're you're you're not gonna be else to fall back on. Leon and Margaret's son of you. You're gonna be saying I'm tawny.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you know, we got married right after col right after I graduated from college, my wife and I. And so we were our own nuclear family. And it's like uh that journey started a couple years before that because I was withdrawn from the family, 11 and a half hours away, you know, type of thing. And so yeah, I think that there's that inflection point where it's like, I gotta own this stuff because I'm I'm gonna be me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'm not them anymore. You're starting to develop even more or solidify rather your identity. I wasn't sure if I was gonna do an intentional step with this interview because the interview just is kind of fluid and natural with um in the way that we're communicating. Uh, but I've really just felt led to go, yeah, there are some intentional steps that we can take here. And this might be just another mindset shift kind of intentional step, but I think it's incredibly valuable. So, my challenge for you today is to own your faith. Own your discipleship. See, one of the things that has been very common in my relationships in my past with the guys that I've discipled, even with myself, is this common thread of choosing to be intentional about your spiritual growth. Um, I'll probably tell you some stories, but there is a common, the common thread that I have seen in other relationships is people have come to me and said, man, I I would love to be able to quote scripture like you do, or I would love to be able to have that kind of prayer life that you have. Or, and they're probably just seeing my my my life and my things through a a glorified lens. It's I'm not that impressive necessarily. Um, but what they're saying is, man, there's something that you have that that I'm lacking and I miss. And I remember one of the first guys that said it because um he just was kind of impressed, I guess is the best word to say, that with my level of ability to just quote scripture. And I just said, Man, if you want to do that, if you want to be able to just spit scriptures off the top of your head, then you have to engage in the scripture. And I and then and I took it a step further. If you want the things that I have gained, then you have to take some of the steps that I've taken. If you want some of the life that I live, then you probably want to walk some of the path that I've walked. You don't get anything by accident, you don't get these things by accident. One of the struggles that I have in my current ministry, and and I'm moving into the practical nature of this right now, and it's the personal and practical piece that I want you to see, is I had to make choices. And then I had to change my priorities based on those choices. I still hear those same kind of comments today. Man, I want to have this level of discipleship, or I want to be here, not necessarily with me, but just where they want to go in their life. And a young man that I was um walking alongside not too long ago says, Man, I'm I just can't wait till I am where you are. And another guy that's at roughly my same my same age because, hey, I haven't been in in this Christian faith as long as you have. How do I get there? And one of the things that frustrates me more than most is when somebody has an aspirational value and doesn't have a practical value. You see, I run into this all the time. I run it ran into it a lot with churches where they where I was working with them in their ministry to men or just in their discipleship ministry in general, and they just I want to be there, I want to get there, I want to do this. There's so many things that I want to do because they're good and they're right, and I don't feel like we're there yet, and say, okay, so let's let's let's roll up our sleeves and get get into it. And they're like, Well, I can't do that. Well, I'm we don't have the resources for that, or I don't have the the manpower for that, or I don't have this for that, and and like, well, what are you willing to do in order to get that? What do you like? And the reality is they have all these aspirations, all these things that they want to become, but they don't have the practical desire to change the things that are necessary to get there. And I've noticed that in personal lives, and I've noticed it in organizational lives and structures. So the personal and practical today is are you willing to assess whether or not you have aspirational values for discipleship? Or are you willing to, or are you just, or or practical rather? Or are you willing to have practical values? Are you willing to replace your aspirations with with practical strategy? And sometimes, actually almost every time, that means you have to change your priorities. That means something that is that's that's high on your list needs to drop down on your list so that your discipleship or your spiritual faith can can get a little higher on that list. Reality is God should be number one. He should be preeminent, he should be the first thing on your list. And the crazy thing is, is when you make him first thing on your list, everything else seems to fall into place. It's it's when we have God or our relationship with Jesus at number three or number four, um, maybe under our career, under our spouse, under our kids, under our kids' sports, that that they're not really as much of a priority as, or God is not that much as much of a priority as we say He is. We aspire to have a strong relationship with God, but we're not willing to practically change our priorities in order to get there. Uh so my challenge for you today and and my own personal reflection is it's not easy. It's not even easy to ask yourself the question, let alone to change the habits that are necessary to make it possible. But God will bring you to the to your knees. And hopefully your change will come through inspiration and not desperation. You don't have to be slammed to your knees in pain and in struggle and in trial and looking up at God going, please can you fix something? And maybe that something's me. Maybe some that something is my priority. Or maybe you can be inspired. Maybe it isn't through hard times, maybe it's through some of the good times that you're going, Lord, things are going great, and help me to acknowledge you and to love you and to enter into a a stronger and deeper relationship with you in these moments of inspiration so that I don't have to hit my knees in desperation. Both are good, both are necessary, but one is I want to say slightly more intentional because you you go for it even when you don't have to. And that's how you can really test your priorities. So there will be other assessments and other things that I that I think we're going to talk about in order to help you get there, but this is um where I'm gonna leave you today. So thank you. Hopefully you enjoyed this interview with Sam, where we've got stay tuned for part two and then part three because um this conversation gets better. Thank you. And remember to stay curious, my friends.
SPEAKER_03AI was only used in this podcast to enhance the sound and visual experience. All content is authentic and does not contain any AI generated thoughts or concepts.