Episode 12 - Captain Ben McInnis

In this episode of Oceans Unplugged, Lee Gallacher sits down with Captain Ben McInnis, Harbour Master of Portsmouth and a Master Mariner with decades of experience in the maritime industry.

From starting his career at sea through a cadetship to becoming Harbour Master of one of the UK's busiest commercial ports, Ben shares what it takes to manage cruise ships, ferries, cargo vessels, and one of the most complex waterways in the country.

Together, they discuss life as a marine pilot, the role of a Harbour Master, careers in the maritime industry, modern navigation, GPS reliability, traditional celestial navigation, port operations, and the future of commercial shipping.

Whether you're fascinated by life at sea, considering a maritime career, or simply curious about what happens behind the scenes of a busy working port, this episode offers a unique insight into the people responsible for keeping global trade and shipping moving safely.

A huge thank you to our core sponsor YB Tracking. None of this would be possible without your help and the service you provide to thousands of people every day. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Open Gun Pload. I'm the Galactic, formal professional fighter, Mariner, Harbour Authority, Patrol Officer, Postgre Officer, and Left Brighton. In each episode, I'll be sitting down one-to-one with the people who push beyond the horizon. Open right back, explorers, rowers, and the leaders behind the world's most demanding expeditions. We'll expand on the guest as we get into it. OpenAs Unplugged is proudly supported by YB Tracking, the global leader in race and expedition tracking technology, helping bring the world's toughest adventures to life in real time. This is our stories, unfiltered and in-depth. Today I'm really chuffed that we've actually got a master mariner, Captain Ben McKinnist of Portsmouth Harbourmaster, who I've known for probably about 10 years now.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Yeah, I think I think so, maybe, maybe even 14 or 15.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Oh good lord, is it really that? So, Ben, you're you're the harbour master, commercial harbour master of Portsmouth Harbour, and uh you're Pompey born and bred. So tell me a little bit about sort of your background. What how did you end up in this?

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Uh I guess it was an accident, really. I sort of fell into uh being in the marine industry by by growing up in Portsmouth, really, being around the water. Um, I was at Sea Scouts as a young boy and uh Porchester Sailing Club, sailing with my father, and that sort of gave me a love for the sea. And then um I sort of started working in the travel and tourism industry, so Sun Sail worked for those down in Port Solon and uh started working for them abroad as well in Turkey. And uh between seasons in Turkey, uh I started working on the ferries out of Portsmouth, and that was as a steward, um, sort of pouring pints and cleaning toilets, really. And uh yeah, it wasn't until then that I was found out about how to become a professional mariner officer through doing a cadet ship. So that was Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

I mean, it's something that I've mentioned in episodes before that a career at sea isn't something really that the the sort of careers advisor talks about when you're at school, is it?

SPEAKER_00 2:12

No, it's crazy really, especially here in the Solent region because we're surrounded by the sea, and uh the sea is where 95% of our produce is coming from, you know, all the oil to heat our homes, fuel our cars, everything's coming by sea, all the clothes, your uh Timu and uh all your uh cheap products coming in, you know, online shopping, it's all it's all done through ship. So um the fact that we don't push shipping and marine industries, especially in the solar region, is crazy because there's great money to be made uh out of the in the marine industry, and there's a lot of jobs going, and and uh there is skills shortage in the sector, so there's there's opportunities to be had for youngsters coming up through school and education now, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

And like you said, you did your time at SummerSale, like me. Uh I was a pontoon lad and cleaning the toilets on the yachts, and then obviously went and got my commercial tickets on yachts, and obviously from that, as we said, no careers advise. So, how did you sort of change into sort of becoming a hard master? You said you did a cadet ship. Tell me a bit more about that.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Yeah, so I I sort of got fed up with the travelling lifestyle and doing part-time work on ferries, and uh, I'd been chatting to the cadets on board who were training to be deck officers, and uh they sort of explained how to uh get into it, and I was very happy to learn that you didn't actually need to be that clever, and uh it was just a basic GCSE grades uh to get you through to becoming a cadet. So I applied to a lot of companies and I was able to secure a cadet ship with the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, yeah. Um, which is the Royal Navy, but it's uh it's a civilian branch of the Navy, so they they deal with all the uh stores, supplies, ammunition, and fuel for warships at sea. Um so so I signed up to to a cadet ship with them, which is effectively an apprenticeship. Yeah. And how long did that last? So from starting up until qualification, for me it was just under four years. I think it's a bit shorter now, it's about three, three and a half years. Um, but yeah, that that takes you through um initial college phases, and then you go to sea between college phases, so it's like a sandwich course and you um you basically do all your learning at college, all the theory, and then you practically apply it at sea when you're you're on your sea phase. So while you're at college, you're doing exams and and written work, and when you're at sea you're doing a task book like NVQ, um, and it's very, very much based like an apprenticeship.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

And with those college stages, are they sort of industry specific? So marine maritime? I know we've got Wars Ash Maritime, or or can kids go to like normal colleges and ask?

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Yeah, um, not really. Yeah, that there's there's four big maritime colleges in the UK at various locations. Um, you mentioned Wars Ash, which is part of Solent Southampton University, um, which is down in the south. You've got South Shields up in the northeast. Um, you've got the uh college just north of Blackpool. I can't remember the name now. It'll come to me.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Uh we're getting older, Ben. We're getting older.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Yeah, and Glasgow in Scotland. Uh let me just try and think of the name of the college in Scotland in uh the northwest. Northwest. Can't remember.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

No, don't worry. So, I mean, there's those places they can look them up on on Google, and in different countries, you're gonna have a similar situation as well, where you can go and look up uh how to get a career at sea. Now after your time as with the RFA, how did that transition to become a marine pilot? And then obviously, subsequently, the the hard master. How did you become a marine pilot?

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Yeah, um, so so that I mean the time in the RFA was great, I had an amazing 14 years there. I went from cadet right up to first officer, I was operations officer of a helicopter carrier, and uh I went through from officer of the watch certification up to master mariner, which is yeah, sort of captain's license. Uh, and then once I had my captain's license, I had uh children and uh yeah, they put a spanner in the works really with working uh abroad, working away from home. So uh I took the decision to to sort of prioritize the kids over the sea, the sea life. And uh so I basically started looking for a way where I could combine the sea work or maritime work with uh with spending time at home with the kids. So uh I managed to get a job uh at Portson Port as a trainee pilot and then deputy harbour master, and uh and and then after a few years became uh fully qualified class one pilot and and my former boss retired, and uh I was offered the job then of harbour master, which was fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Now, you you'd sort of mentioned obviously you've got your your master mariner's ticket, your captain's ticket. Around the world, there is quite often a little bit of confusion about the term captain. I know in America anyone that sails anything from a dinghy up to a container ship is called a captain. And obviously, when we work together as a pilot launch coxswain, taking Ben out and putting him onto the ships, a lot of people seem to think that I was a captain the same as Ben, and there's a complete difference, isn't there?

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Yeah, I mean, everyone's got their own specializations and trades, but uh I mean for for us, I mean, the the actual term captain uh formerly in the UK would only be a Royal Navy captain or an officer in the the army, for example, but uh captain would be a four four strike uh commanding officer of a large ship, such as an aircraft carrier. Um so so the the actual term for the captain of a ship is the master, and the qualification for that is a master mariner. So uh, for example, the certification I hold is an STCW Master Mariner Unlimited, which means I can be captain or master uh of any vessel, any size uh in the world, basically.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

That's pretty impressive. Now you go from that master mariner, captain, and you go into pilotage. There's also different levels in pilotage.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Yeah, we call we call them classes. So you start as a trainee pilot and then you'll work your way up to class three, then two, then one or unlimited pilot. So um, and that really is just a process of training, uh, qualification for uh for experience, really, and and and uh sort of peer-to-peer uh monitoring. So you do a formal exam when you're a trainee up to your your class three, and then from there it's basically assessment runs all the way up until you're unlimited. So at Portsmouth, for example, any ship that's under 150 metres, we we say it's a class three job. So a newly qualified pilot would do the smaller ships, and then the class one pilots, unrestricted, will be doing your big cruise ships like Virgin or um yeah, you know, Saga bringing bringing the largest cruise ships in and the largest container ships. So so we do a staged uh what we call authorization, so the smaller ships for the least experienced pilots and the bigger ships for the the most experienced pilots.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Yeah. I mean, you mentioned the Virgin ship there. Uh that's a massive ship. And if I if I remember correctly, you actually had to go and do a load of simulator stuff before you brought it into the port.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Yeah, we we done uh we had to redesign the port to accommodate larger cruise ships. So what one of my tasks as harbourmaster, and when I was leading up to Harbourmaster's job, was to see how far we could push the envelope at Portsmouth, um, not just for crews but for cargo as well. So we embarked on a series of uh simulation uh studies uh and working with the engineers as well for the port to determine how big uh we could go essentially. So we started at 200 meter ships, which is what we were comfortable with at the moment, and we we uh we did some work with the Royal Caribbean and we took a captain uh from Royal uh because they're experiencing the biggest ships in the world. So we went all the way from the you know stuff we were doing right up to the biggest ships in the world, and uh that you know we determined from there that we were looking at roughly around 300-meter uh size vessels. So you see your sort of virgins and TUI Mineskift 3, that sort of size vessel is the sort of largest we can we can get in.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

So when we're looking at some of the cruise ships you're bringing in, so the Virgin, Mineskiff uh three, etc., that's a large number of passengers on them as well that you're bringing in. That must be a massive boost to the local economy as well.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Oh, hugely, yeah. I mean, each ship uh call at Portsmouth of a large cruise ship will generate about a million pounds into the local economy. So that's not just money that's taken through the port, it's everything. Like, for example, the largest ships will use tugs for safety, so they have to pay for a tug or two tugs. Um, it's the food deliveries, it's the taxis that are taking people around, it's the local hotels that are putting people up the night before they embark, the ship, the restaurants, everything in that local area. Every like everyone from the line handlers, the pilot boat staff, you know, that all that cash is being generated by that ship visit and being distributed. And a lot of that cash will remain in the local economy. So it's really good for the region. And generates a lot of employment. Exactly, yeah. With the port supports a hell of a lot of jobs, around 5,000 jobs indirectly. So although as a port we employ about 100 people, we support 5,000 jobs through our operation. So it just shows the impact of marine in the local area. That and it definitely needs promoting a lot more. Yeah, for sure. You know, Portsmouth is well known as a dockyard port for the for the Royal Navy, but it's not so well known as a cargo and and uh cruise port at the moment. But uh we're just always trying to push that message that that we're here and there's jobs, there's opportunities available, and we're generating a lot of money for the for the city because the port that Portsmouth unusually is owned by by the city now because you're generating so much income uh and promotion for the city.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

What is that sort of relationship between as you said, it's Portsmouth City Council that that own and run the commercial port, but what's that relationship with like the Royal Navy? Because I mean it is an a very old traditional Navy natural harbour as well.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yeah, the the Navy rule the roost in Portsmouth, so uh there's no doubt about that. Um the Navy have a King's Harbour Master and they maintain overall control of the harbour. And uh I'm in charge of all the commercial elements of the harbour, so the the main ferry and cruise port, the cargo terminal, and the camber docks, which is where all the fishing uh fleet are based in Portsmouth, as well as the White Link car ferry service. So um and uh a Royal Navy uh King's Harbour Master is not allowed to be what we call a competent harbour authority for pilotage under the Pilotage Act. So my role as as well as is head of the pilotage service in Portsmouth. So we uh have a team of pilots that bring the ships in and out um under the pilotage act. So um we work closely with the King's Hubmaster, we've got a great relationship and we work together, we have regular meetings, we we work together on a lot of projects, and uh uh and we understand each other's uh powers and uh and and who who's responsible for each area. So it's a good relationship, and uh yeah, it's nice to work in that environment. I'm ex-navy, so it's nice to still be around that, even though I'm now doing different work. So I've got I'm a step away, but I still understand what's going on in there in their hood.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

In their hood. Um, and for those of you who are watching, and and Ben just mentioned Camberdock, for the uh out and out pro sailors of you, the British team for the America's Cup uh run by Sir Ben Ainsley, their home used to be in Camberdock. You may recall pictures of the Union Jack all across the big uh buildings. Um so we you we touched into pilotage acts and that you manage it, etc. What in its essence? What is a pilot? What does a pilot do? Because you said about you bring them in.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

So does the captain sort of go to bed or yeah, so uh he won't go to bed, but uh we're essentially a valet parking service for ships. So we'll go out on a small launch, and that'll take us uh fast launch will take us out about 11 miles to sea. And uh there's an area called the Nab Tower where we'll we'll board vessels. So um we'll go up the rope ladder up the side of the ship and uh make our way to the bridge. Uh what we'll then do is we'll have a detailed handover with the captain, and he'll tell us all about the ship, the characteristics, how it handles, and then we'll go through our passage plan with the captain of which route we're going to take, how the depths are, the tides in the area, how we're gonna employ the tugs, any local notices in the area, anything extraordinary going on. So we'll have this big exchange of information, and then the captain will hand over the con or sort of uh conduct of the ship to the pilot. So the pilot will give uh directions as to what engine and uh howm or rudder movements that that you want. So we'll give steering orders. So uh and the captain of a ship's uh legally obliged to give the conduct of navigation to the pilot in the UK. And and it's the same for every other country, really, in the world. Uh most countries have a similar pilotact and and vessels will have to take a pilot uh in the world wherever we go. So even myself and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary background, we would take a pilot in every every country we visited, every port we visited generally. So it's just it's a normal part. We compliment each other, you know. The captain doesn't go to bed, he's very much on the bridge, he can overrule the pilot's decisions if he thinks the ship's in danger. And uh you work as a team, so yeah, it's and it's nice to work with the captains and the bridge teams, you know. It still keeps me involved uh with being part of that sea environment, you know.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Yeah, yeah. I suppose the captains know their ship and their crew really well, but they can't know every port and harbour in the world that they visit with the in-depth knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Well, exactly. And you take a port as complex as Sportsmouth where these, you know, multiple moves going on at the same time. We've got VTS, which is like air traffic control for ships. They might not speak English or they might not speak English as affluently as they in local accents, you know, working with the tugs, they can't be expected to know all the tug control. So it's really just about safety and having someone local on board that's an expert in the the waters and the and the navigation. So so yeah, I mean they're you know, a captain's as grateful to see a pilot uh as we are to have pilots on the ships that are coming into our ports because part of pilotage is to protect the port and the infrastructure. Yeah, we don't want people coming in, disrupting routines or or making damage to our piers and docks. No, and that can get expensive quite rapidly. Yeah, that's one thing you can be sure about the marine industry is that everything is expensive.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Uh what is it? Boat stands for bring on another thousand. Well, I suppose it's in shipping, it's bringing on tens of thousands.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Yeah, exactly that. Yeah, it's uh when you when you need to repair something and you've got to bring boats in and further multi-cats and barges with cranes on, you quickly spend in tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands to to make what seem like minor repairs.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Yeah. Now you spoke about it uh just then. So obviously, when the ship's coming in, they're speaking to the V VTS, the vessel traffic services, and you go out on this fast pilot boat. Now you've then got to get, as you mentioned, off that little boat, up a rope ladder, and onto the ship. So does the ship anchor or are you both moving? Uh is it rocking rolling? I bet that gets a bit um interesting.

SPEAKER_00 18:57

It's actually um smoother to keep both ships going. So the pilot boat and the the ship will will be moving. Um we'll do it at about six to eight knots, which is about five to ten miles an hour. And the pilot boat will match the speed of the ship, and we'll turn the ship so that the wind and the waves are on the other side of the ship, and that creates what we call a lee, um, which is a flat patch by the side of the ship, and that allows us to board safely, even in quite rough conditions. Uh, we can still get a pilot on in uh fairly fairly benign conditions under the lee of the ship.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Yeah, um I love the way that you say a flat patch. I mean, there's been a few moments where um we've looked up and then looked down at you going up the ladder.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Yeah, yeah, it can be quite hairy at times. I mean, uh it's one of those things you have to gauge, you know, whether the swell and the waves are suitable and it's safe to board or not. And that's very much the sort of job of the coxswain of the pilot boat to make sure that those conditions are safe for the pilot to board and they'll they'll direct the ship into how far they want to turn. Or you can also create a bit of a lee if you ask the ship to turn while you're boarding, which is another good uh trick to use. Uh, and then ultimately it's the pilot's choice as to whether he's actually going to step off the boat and onto that ladder. So uh yeah, again, it's cooperation between the pilot and the coxswain of the boat to make sure that that that you're achieving a safe operation because you know everyone wants to go home at the end of the day with uh with two feet.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Yeah, and there are internationally recognised uh standards and guidance of like materials to be used for the pilot ladder, the heights it's got to be set. Uh, because some of these ships, especially the big container ships and that, it it's quite a distance you have to travel.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Yeah, yeah, we you can climb up to nine metres uh on a rope ladder and before you have to step across onto a metallic uh accommodation ladder. But uh yeah, Solas lays down all the standards for the rope ladders, and uh one of the jobs of the crewmen on the pilot boat is to check the condition of the ladder before the pilot gets on, so they'll do a visual inspection and then they'll jump up and down on it a few times just to make sure it's secured and it's not slipping and the steps are uh um the steps aren't moving.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Yeah. So from that, you obviously get on, you you're having that communication, you bring in the ship, and obviously with the Solent area, it's quite unique in its tidal streams, flows, speeds, etc. Once you get in uh to the confines of the harbour, I mean Portsmouth is a natural harbour itself. Where does like conservancy and uh water pollution and all that, where does that kind of kick in? And do you have responsibilities of that as a harbour master?

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Yeah, yes, for sure. So um well, protecting the marine environment is one of the fundamentals of solar, safety of life at sea convention. So the ships have to look after the sea, the harbour, and uh Terms of how they uh putting out discharge of any sewage or any uh engine cooling water or anything anything like that. Uh and as a harbour master, we've got a duty to keep keep the harbour clean and the ships that are using the harbour. So um we we do what's called conservancy, which uh I mean for us we're quite lucky in Portsmouth because the King's Harbourmaster uh dredge vast waves of the harbour for their naval operation, which is great for us. Um but uh we dredge our own areas around the berth, which means we're keeping the seabed and the mud levels down to an acceptable level to make sure that the ships can come in and safely because we don't want them grounding. Um, and then we'll issue rules to ships to say what sort of uh things they can uh um emit into the harbour. So, for example, you can't discharge any sewage, for example, off the ship in Portsmouth Harbour. And um, and we've done a lot of steps in Portsmouth for sure to uh reduce emissions. So we've just installed uh the the country's biggest uh shore power system. So ships that come alongside now to the cruise and ferry port have a 15 megawatt uh um power availability. So we can actually plug in the ferries now. So when they're alongside, there are zero emissions. Yeah, yeah. And if we combine that with Brittany Ferry's own project of bringing in uh hybrid uh ferries, the new uh San Malo and Guillaume de Normandy, yeah, they actually switch off their engines with traditional fuels, the LNG they're using, which is already cleaner burning than conventional fuel, the fairway boy. So the whole way in and their whole manoeuvre and putting the ship on the berth is on battery, zero emissions. And then when they're alongside, it's zero emissions. So for the people at Portsmouth that live next to the port, you've got these two ships that are coming in twice a day, and they're not emitting anything, and they've replaced two ships that were using conventional heavy fuel oil. Yeah, so you can imagine the difference for local residents. You've gone from you know conventional fuel burning to zero emissions, it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

I actually have uh had the pleasure of being on uh the St. Marlowe and Captain Rue on there uh that gave us quite an interesting tour and discussion about the the new hybrid engines and uh what the sort of effect it is for the ports. It it's fabulous, especially the way that it's going. So moving on from pilotage, obviously, where you're a pomp Pompey lad, you still do a little bit of water sports yourself. You kite surf if I remember correctly.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah, that's right. Not not nearly as much as I used to, or I'd like to, but uh yeah, I kite surf uh in a place called Hill Head. Um so yeah, I've got a I've got sort of four kites and a few boards, and uh try and get out when I can. But uh it used to be four times a month, it seems to be four times a year now. So yeah, I play football and uh quite surf, but uh I'd like to sail a bit more. I try to get my kids into sailing and uh they enjoy being on the boat and they enjoyed going downstairs when the boat was tipping uh over, but they did not uh take to the whole concept of pulling ropes and getting behind the wheel, yeah. Which I was really a bit gutted about, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Yeah, I have the same challenges, Ben. I have the same challenges. Now, within the Solent, we've got so many um yacht clubs and things like that. Uh it it must make bringing the ships in, especially for leisure boaters, uh, an interesting and challenging environment for um not just the pilot and the captain, but for boaters as well. How how can they know where you're going?

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Yeah, so uh Portsmouth's a tough one for that because you've got a huge amount of mariners and uh leisure users mooring in the harbour combined with a huge amount of commercial moves. So, yeah, there's uh naturally it's the harbour entrance, which is tiny, you know, it's only the main channel is only sort of 110 metres across and 200 metres, you know, between both sides of the entrance. So you you can imagine getting all those leisure users through the same space, same tight space as ferries coming in and out, or a large container ship. It's difficult. So we we have standing regulations, so there's a small boat channel which keeps uh the small yachts and power boats and things within 50 metres of the wall on the gosport side or the uh sort of uh western entrance, and that leaves the main channel then open for the uh for the commercial traffic. So that's how it should work. So it should work. Yeah, it can be trying, especially in the summer holidays. If you've got people of charter the yacht, for example, they might not have read up on all the local regulations, they don't know what they're doing, they're not listening to the right channel on the radio for the King's Harbor Master. Uh, so they can end up being chased by police boats, or if we're coming out with a pilot, and uh we we might ask the pilot boat to go and act as a shepherd for us and uh keep people keep people in the small boat channel. So so yeah, it's a mix of uh regulations which are empowered and you can enforce and uh trying to educate people through harbour patrols and uh and the police uh being on the water.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

And as you say, it's a really narrow entrance, 100 metres uh on the water and everything. And right next to that, you've got beach area with sunbavers on the hot walls, uh, and traditional old forts that Joe Public is sort of around. Does that sometimes become a challenge as well?

SPEAKER_00 27:38

But it does. I mean, you can get the forts you mentioned, like that you've got the round tower down there, and you get kids jumping off there at high tide in the summer. I mean, it's illegal and they shouldn't be doing it, but it's certainly uh a factor because there's some super strong tides at the entrance and they can be lethal. Um, so we we do try and keep reporting that to the police. But uh again, you know, being a Pompey lad, it's an age-old problem that uh kids have forever been jumping off the pier at South Prairie Pier, the round tower, and and uh even going back to the sort of 30s and 40s, the the kids back then were known as mudlarks, and they would jump into the mud by the railway station, and people would toss coins down at them. So, and there's even a statue by the dockyard gate of the mudlarks. Yeah, so so we get the problem today, and people are still up in arms about these kids that are jumping in the water and creating havoc, but it's a it's an age-old problem, and I don't think we'll ever solve it. All we can do is educate and try and use the the police to their but their best uh advantage, but they're they're up against it.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Yeah, I bet they are, and especially with the recent extreme temperatures that we've had, uh jumping off of the the Kia over at Camber Dock uh is probably quite a big and busy area, and you've got ferries in and out there, fishing boats in and out there, ribs in and out there.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Yeah, uh yeah, it's a busy area. It's very hard to very hard to enforce. I mean, there's bylaws at the Canber to stop people swimming in the Canberra. Um, but when you the problem is if you've got kids who are 13, 14 years old, is it in the public interest to prosecute them? Can you take them to court? Um, how much is it going to cost for the port to take them to court? And is the judge then gonna find a fine a 13-year-old child and the port will be a good one? And criminalise them. Exactly, and cover that cost. So I mean it's a balance. I mean, education is what we try and do. We we do engagement with the local community, we do engagement with schools. Um we're part of a local community group at the Canber where we try and get kids to go out sailing, um, activities, we give vouchers to go and do uh stuff at the outdoor activity centre on Eastern Road. And uh yeah, there's there's a whole heap of initiatives that we try and take, community wardens down there. Yeah, but uh you're right. Essentially, when the sun's out and it's super hot, people want to jump off things and go in the water.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

That they do, that they do. I've just remembered actually something I did want to ask. Um, so when you're using uh or getting on a ship, obviously each ship has got different systems. Uh they've still got similar uh navigational systems on board. Uh what what things do you use or navigational aids do you use to help advise the captain or bring in and yeah, so so yeah, each bridge is different.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

So it would be wrong to assume that a pilot can come onto a ship and understand all the equipment that's on board. So obviously, we've got the radars, we've got charts, and more often than not, now you it's electronic charts. And uh so we we we we would usually ask the bridge officers to help us set up the radar to how we like it or how to use their chart system. Um, but we've kind of eliminated the chart system issues by uh use of what we call PPUs or portable pilot units, which each pilot would have their own laptop, and then there's an universal interface basically, which every ship has got a plug for us, or plug into that, and that sends all their navigational data to our own PPUs, and uh then we we've got our own charts then and we know how to use it. It's uh basic, you know, as you would on your phone, your fingers open and zoom in, and it's it's sort of easy to use, and uh so so we bring that on board, and then you know, we we use standard marine uh vocabulary when we're talking to the crew or giving Helm orders or engine orders, we keep it simple and stick to the standard vocabulary, and then uh again we'll we'll use the VHF radio to talk to to the shore shore side. Um, so yeah, I think that's probably probably about as as much as we we we use on the bridge.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

And merchant marine uh GPS equipment on ships are a lot more accurate than they would be on leisure yachts, for instance.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Yeah, but perhaps. Uh I mean this this GPS is GPS, you know, this um it's pretty damn accurate, but it can be it can be spoofed or it can be made less accurate. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

I mean that that obviously seems to be a bit of a growing problem in different parts of the world, like the Baltic, the Red Sea. Yeah um I'm hearing bits down in South America which may be linked to sort of organized crime and and drug cartels of jamming that. Is that a massively growing problem?

SPEAKER_00 32:37

I'm not sure that it's massively growing, but those areas you mentioned, and certainly around uh sort of Ukraine and Russia now, you've probably got issues down there with spoofing and GPS jamming. I mean, we're seeing the advancement of drone technologies now, both on the sea and in the air. And uh I suppose jamming is the best way to sort of knock out those sensors on on those sort of uh drone technologies. So I think it's something that we need to be wary of. Uh, I mean, certainly my training in the military was all about navigation without using GPS. So we were using all the terrestrial navigation, so using the compass, compass bearings, um, radar distances, and then getting a fix on a on a paper chart, and even transferring that terrestrial fixing onto electronic charts. And one thing that does worry me now is that there's such a reliance on GPS that that uh I don't think a lot of bridge teams would be able to run a traditional fixing routine on an electronic chart if GPS was knocked out. I think it would be a huge uh huge skills gap at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

No. Do you think there is such a massive reliance now on on uh electronic navigation and GPS? The the old skills. I was talking to uh Gunnar Christiansen, who's one of the entrants for the Golden Globe, and they're obviously going to sail around the world with no electronic navigation rays. So basically the same as 1968 Golden Globe race. Uh, do you think those sort of traditional skills using the sextants uh is completely lost, or do you think there might be a regeneration of it?

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Yeah, I mean, there's skills using a sextant to find your position. It's still part of a syllabus for cadets coming through. So it's it is practiced. And uh, I mean, it used to be quite enjoyable in the RFA. We would I'd done a passage from uh Rio de Janeiro over to uh Ascension Island, and we did that whole passage without GPS. Um, you know, we took the sun in the morning, the sun at noon, and sun in the evening, then we did stars and then stars again in the morning. And you know, by the time we were halfway across the Atlantic, uh and only the captain was able to look at the GPS once a day. We were within about a mile, a mile and a half of our GPS position, which is superb because you'd expect reasonably for the radar to pick up land at 24 miles, 20 miles. Yeah, um, so to be within a mile of your position in the middle of the Atlantic using using maths and a sun gun was kind of, you know, it's great. It's quite, you know, it's boring when you're on watch mid-Atlantic and you're there practicing your maths, and uh uh it's quite quite a sense of achievement to do it. So yeah, it's being taught whether it's being practiced as much as it should be is another question, and uh yeah, I can't really answer for every company. Yeah, having cadets on boards helps because it keeps all the officers fresh in uh in how to do these things and challenged, exactly. Yeah, and half the time it's the cadets showing the officers how to do it.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

So before we wrap up, a couple of quick fire questions. What's your biggest highlight of your career?

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Um, I would say probably uh becoming harbour master at Portsmouth because uh, like you say, I've grown up in Portsmouth, Portsmouth born and bred. So to have the title of Portsmouth Harbourmaster is like a real uh great honour for me. Like it if you rephrase the question, what's been the best bits? I'd say like port visits to um South Georgia, and then sort of north of Antarctic. Went to visit Shackleton's Graves or Penguins, Elephant Seals, it's just incredible. And uh up there with uh South Georgia, I've got Miami, Rio, de Janeiro, and Edinburgh as my favourite port visits in the world. Oh wow, Edinburgh's up there.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

And another quick fire, what was your biggest challenge, scariest moment in your career?

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Uh I think probably the scariest moment has been uh probably when I first started and we had rough weather, and you're in your cabin at night, and you the ship's rolling, and you you get to a point where you think, is this gonna come back? And uh so that can be quite quite scary. I mean, challenging moments. I've had so many, you know, and especially as harbour master, because you know, you go your whole career as an officer and you've always got someone above you. I mean, I I left the sea as a first officer or uh operations officer of a helicopter carrier. So there was always a captain above you to uh hold your hand. Yeah, exactly. But now you when you're the harbour master, you've got no one really then to go and ask. So you you end up asking your peers. But uh it's weird, it's when something goes wrong, it's an oil spill, or we had a ship spill some containers out at the Nab Tower, and you get the phone call, it's the middle of the night, and you're the man, you know, you're you're the guy who's got to deal with this, and you know, you've just got to shake that feeling off and just do something, uh start something, you know, get the pilots out, get get your tugs out, and get the pilot boat out, see what's going on, and you just need to like switch off that panic mode and just do what do what you can.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

And as a final bit, if if you money no object and you could buy a boat, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 38:07

It would be a big yacht, yeah, like a sailing yacht, say like a 60-foot yacht. I mean, I'd just love to sail around the world or the Mediterranean, Caribbean, and uh yeah, not have a budget to worry about. I mean, that would be great.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Oh, wouldn't it just well? Thank you very much for your time, Ben. It's been an absolute honour to have you on uh with us, and uh hopefully we'll have you on again in a few years or when something else happens, uh I'll come and pick your brains, but thank you very much for your time.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Cheers, Lee.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Thanks.