Episode 15 - Five O'Clock Follies, Revisited with Guest Terence Smith

Episode Description

Richard Schreiber and Tom Martin sit down with Terence Smith — veteran New York Times bureau chief, CBS News Emmy winner, and author of Four Wars, Five Presidents — for one of the most grounded conversations about war, journalism, and political manipulation you will hear this year. Terry was in Jerusalem on day one of the Six-Day War in 1967. He ran the largest overseas bureau in the world for the Times in Saigon. He built the PBS NewsHour’s media criticism unit. And he is still watching, still writing, and still calling it straight.

This episode covers the U.S. strikes on Iranian civilian water infrastructure, the Netanyahu-Trump political calculus behind the Iran war, the gutting of PBS and the dismantling of CBS News under Bari Weiss, and what journalism schools are telling us about the future of the press. Terry also pulls from his memoir to put the fog of today’s war reporting in the context of Vietnam’s infamous 5:00 Follies briefings — and the parallel is not reassuring.

If you have ever wondered whether the American press can survive this moment, Terry Smith offers a hard-earned answer. It is not simple. It is not comfortable. But it is honest. And that is exactly why you need to hear it.

Topics Covered

•        U.S. Strikes on Iranian Water Infrastructure: NBC News geolocated footage confirming two civilian drinking water reservoirs serving 20,000 people were destroyed — what the Pentagon calls a surgical strike, Terry calls what it is: a war crime.

•        Netanyahu’s Political Calculus: Terry explains why he believes Bibi Netanyahu pressed Trump into the Iran strikes to reposition himself as a wartime leader ahead of Israeli national elections in September.

•        The Deal That Isn’t: Trump declares a resolution is near while Iranian officials say nothing has been finalized — and the Strait of Hormuz remains a contested fact between U.S. CENTCOM and Iranian state media.

•        The Defunding of PBS and the Destruction of CBS News: Congress’s cancellation of $9 billion in public broadcasting funding has already damaged 1,500-plus stations. Bari Weiss’s takeover of CBS News is examined through the lens of David Ellison’s $110 billion bid to acquire Warner Brothers Discovery — with CNN in the package.

•        Fake News as a Strategy: A 2016 account of Trump telling Lesley Stahl directly why he hammers on media credibility — traced to a deliberate Goebbels-style disinformation framework that Terry confirms he has watched operate across administrations.

•        Vietnam’s 5:00 Follies and Today’s Fog of War: Terry draws a direct line from the daily military briefings in Saigon — which reporters nicknamed the 5:00 Follies for their disconnection from reality — to today’s Pentagon press operation.

•        The Future of Journalism: Enrollment at journalism schools is up. Terry argues that young journalists entering this chaos are doing so with open eyes — and that as long as people need to know what is happening in the world, true journalism will survive.

•        West Bank Settler Violence: Terry adds an underreported story to the Wire: Israeli ethnonationalist settlers are physically attacking and killing Palestinians on the West Bank, with the Netanyahu government looking the other way to preserve his fragile coalition.

About the Hosts

Richard Schreiber

Richard Schreiber is a strategic AI consultant, journalist, autism advocate, and fiction writer based in New York City. With a background spanning investigative reporting, technology consulting, and over 25 years in legal technology and procurement, Richard brings a rare combination of real-world experience and analytical depth to every conversation. He is the founder of a growing autism advocacy foundation and the author of multiple books, including Autism Care Revolution. His journalism is guided by one principle: facts first, always.

Tom Martin

Tom Martin is a veteran television news producer with more than 20 years at some of the most respected names in broadcasting. He got his start at the CBS News Washington Bureau in 1982 — where he witnessed history firsthand, including being in the room when Nixon delivered his infamous “I am not a crook” statement. The son of a legendary newspaper editor who helped launch USA Today, Tom grew up believing journalism is a sacred public trust. He carries that belief into every story he tells.

Guest: Terence Smith

Terence Smith spent 20 years at the New York Times, including eight years in the Middle East covering four wars and earning two Pulitzer Prize nominations. He was in Jerusalem on June 5, 1967 — day one of the Six-Day War. At CBS, he won two Emmy Awards and shared a Peabody for CBS Sunday Morning. He built the PBS NewsHour’s media criticism and analysis unit, earning 18 national awards. His memoir, Four Wars, Five Presidents: A Reporter’s Journey from Jerusalem to Saigon to the White House, is available now on Amazon. He continues to write on Substack.

Our Mission

True Journalism exists because facts still matter. The press is a watchdog — not a lapdog — and the American public deserves reporting that shines a light rather than throws a shadow. This is not a political show. We do not have a party. We have one principle: if it is not a verified fact, we will say so.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

The United States struck civilian water infrastructure in Iran this week, two reservoirs serving twenty thousand people, while calling the strike surgical and military targeted. Some might call this an act of treason. Nearly two thousand Iranian civilians have been killed since this war began. The administration claims a deal is finalized. Iran says nothing has been agreed. Meanwhile, Congress defunded the Corporation for Public Public Broadcasting, gunning 1,500 public media stations, including the news hour, where our guest, the esteemed Terrence Smith, built his career. Our guest covered four wars over five decades. And he wrote last month, I've never seen the like of it. Neither have you and I, Tom. Welcome to True Journalism.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Richard. Yeah, we're great. Great to have you here, Terry. When we often kind of preface things talking about the fairness doctrine, and I'll say when the fairness doctrine fell in 1987, it silenced the institutional memory that held power accountable across administrations. Terry Smith carries that memory personally. Again, as you said, Richard, in the title of your wonderful book, Five Presidents, Four Wars, 40 Countries, a very impressive uh career of the foreign correspondent. The archive in his reporting is exactly what today's media infrastructure has been designed to destroy, which is very troubling. The team that he built for media criticism and analysis at the PBS News Hour is part of this big defunding target, which is terrible as far as I'm concerned. The body counts that Terry learned to distrust in coverage of the Vietnam War and so on are repeating on a new battlefield. So there's what comes around, once again, the history repeats itself for sure, yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

So our guest, Terrence Smith, spent 20 years at the New York Times, eight of them in the Middle East covering the four wars, and he earned two Pulitzer nominations. At CBS, he won two Emmys and shared a Peabody at CBS Sunday morning. As Tom said, he built the TBS Newshour Media Criticism Unit, earning 18 national awards. And boy, do we miss that today. And his memoir, Four Wars, Five Presidents. Our co-host Tom Martin is CBS Saturday morning colleague, Terry Smith. Welcome to True Journalism. Sunday morning. Sunday morning. Sunday morning, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

One day off.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Well, and we're beat that. Well, welcome, Carrie. It's great to have you here. I love the stories that we did together. That was a number of years ago. We Terry's a passionate sailor. And so we did one about an all-female sailing team that ran that sailed all the oceans of the world, the whitbrat around the world sailing race. And we did another. I remember we did many stories, but one that I also remember is about overfishing in the oceans. I think we interviewed us. McCary was uh senator of Massachusetts up there talking to the fishermen in Gloucester and whatnot. But we I love the stuff that we did together. So it's great to have you here. One correction, it's Gloucester. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Thank you, Tom. Thank you, Richard. I appreciate both. Tom, we certainly had a lot of good times, didn't we?

SPEAKER_01 3:28

So let's start off with uh kind of a reflection back on you were in Jerusalem on that June 15th, 1967, the day one of the Six-Day War. And you just wrote now 59 years later, now that Israel is fighting on four fronts. What do you see today that you couldn't have imagined back then?

SPEAKER_02 3:49

It would it was impossible to imagine that 59 years later, the essential struggle between Israel and the Palestinians would still be underway. And the reason it was so difficult was the outcome of the Six-Day War in 1967. The Israeli victory was so total, in which they defeated the armies of their Arab neighbors, and they captured the West Bank of the Jordan from Jordan and of course the Sinai and the parts of the Golan Heights. But my the main point is it was a complete and total victory, and the people that I was talking to in Jerusalem in the immediate aftermath of the war absolutely believed that peace was coming and coming soon, and that a compromise of some sort would be reached, some sort of two-state solution would be hammered out, and because there seemed no other option. Well, here we are 59 years later, and that is still elusive and has eluded the world. So it is extraordinary on one hand, and on the other, it suggests that really very little has changed, that the fundamental struggle, you know, they always said two peoples, two countries, or what is the truth, two peoples who are in one country, one area, and struggling with each other. So they still are all these years later. And um I guess there's some lesson in that for all of us.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

And uh there's a lot of speculation. I mean, again, you know, on this podcast, we try not to be biased, not to be polarized, but kind of difficult. People speculating why has Donald Trump taken the action that he's taken? Is there pressure being applied from Israel? The whole way that uh Benjamin Netanyahu is carrying things. I thought what you were telling me, your observations, your belief was very interesting. Can you share that with us?

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Absolutely. I mean, it was important, crucial, if you like, to B.B. Netanyahu, to who's going into national elections and is behind in his attempted re-election, going into national elections in September, and for him to suddenly be a wartime president, that's uh, or in his case, prime minister, uh a wartime leader who I'm sure hopes that the Israeli public would say, Well, we're not going to change horses midstream. Um, now I'm not at all sure that's gonna work, but I think it's what motivated Bibi, Netanyahu, who I met back in the 1970s when he was a backbencher in the Knesset, the Israeli parliament. I think that's what motivated him to press and push Donald Trump to launch the war against Iran and to carry out the attacks that we've all seen. It serves a political purpose for Bibi Netanyahu. Well, maybe it even serves a purpose for Donald Trump in that it diverts attention from some things.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Jeffrey Epstein, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

The Epstein files, um inflation. We're costing you know, you name it, and so he too is positioning himself as a wartime leader.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

But I think the difference there is Trump's miscalculation is that this is costing dearly at the polls. And the perception that this was a surgical strike, an attack, and an in and out. There's a reason why no prior president in the U.S. for 46 years partnered with Israel to invade one of their enemies, not the least of which Iran, a sovereign nation with 92 million people that are more than up to the task. What are your thoughts on that, uh? Well, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

You're absolutely right. I mean, the bottom line is Iran is not Venezuela. Venezuela is not Iran. You don't go into Tehran and pluck out the Supreme Leader and bring him to a New York courtroom. This is for the reasons you just cited, Richard, a whole nother project. Um what I wonder is when Donald Trump goes to bed at night, if he does, and he turns out the light, does he feel that he has been succored, in effect, by Bibi Netanyahu for Netanyahu's political reasons? I I don't know. Who knows? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

There's the question. Well, there was the question came out. Uh I don't know who reported the story behind you know, behind the scenes, yelling at Netanyahu and calling him crazy.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Yeah. Well, I think Trump didn't anticipate that Israel would invade Lebanon as kind of a 1A part of this whole schematic, which I knew that Netanyahu figured on since day one. And that, of course, the has been uh has created a lot of consternation in that kind of triad relationship between Iran, Israel, America, actually four components, and Lebanon has has jeopardized any kind of agreement, ceasefire. But again, it's because B.B. Netanyahu's, to your, to your point, there's his that that that's part of his agenda to move forward.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Uh quick. I would argue that if Donald Trump didn't anticipate that, didn't know that Iran was likely to tell Hezbollah to carry out attacks in northern Israel, if he didn't know that and anticipate it, and that Israel would respond in a uh lethal fashion, then he is not paying attention because that's so obvious, so inevitable. And it still is. It still is. In other words, um yes, he might strike uh an understanding with the um current leaders in Tehran, but does that that's not going to turn off um Israel's effort to launch uh military action against Hezbollah. Now there's a there was an interesting article the other day suggesting that by somebody in Lebanon uh who I thought summed it up brilliantly, he said you can't separate Hezbollah from the Iranian populace or populace. There are too many Shiites in Lebanon who support Hezbollah, at least politically, yeah, and and maybe more. And so you're not gonna do that. So you're not gonna destroy them by military means, you've got to negotiate a solution.

SPEAKER_03 11:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Even though you say you don't negotiate with terrorists, I wanted to touch one kind of personal note, and then maybe we could pivot to another topic. I mean, we can it's quite fascinating. We could talk a lot about this, obviously. But it's funny, a number of years ago, before Trump ran for president the first time, I managed to get a ticket to a PBS taping of it. It was like some classic title like How to Get Rich featuring Donald Trump news to promote Trump University. Robert Carasello, probably is we need it was uh organized by the gentleman who runs the learning end. Oh, yes. And so they said, We used some people ask questions. I said, I I'll ask a question. I thought, what question can I ask Donald Trump? And here's the card, you'll read this question like, oh, okay, I guess that's the way it's being done here. And so the question they invited me to read, scripted by Donaldson. It's like everybody talks about positive thinking, that you say there's value in negative thinking. What do you mean by that? And the more as we watch uh the situation ramp play out, I Terry, you're much more knowledgeable than I am about all of this, but it's just like, how could he not like the straight of work? Well, could he not?

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Well, that the problem is not that he didn't know, the problem is his generals told him, but he chose to ignore them. I mean, there's there's been some information that's been out there to that effect. In fact, I remember it was either Rubio or Hes Hegsef when he when they reported that that caused a big blow-up. And I believe several uh leaders in in the cabinet and/or the military were dismissed because they had the audacity to not be uh telling Donald Trump what he wanted to hear. And uh most people in the military had grave reservations over starting a war with Iran for the obvious reason.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

I'm sorry, Terry, if you want to add something and then break it up.

unknown 13:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

You're lying, you don't know whether Donald Trump hears that. He hears what he wants to hear. Not necessarily what in the reality may be. And so that's the basis for his actions.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Well, there's we're not we're not near the end of our conversation here by any means, but there's a couple of different topics we'd love to talk to you about, Terry, with your your so many years of experience and your wisdom. And one is kind of the general sense of journalism today. And I know you covered the Vietnam War. And just as we're talking about the situation in Iran and also between Israel, um, and I was thinking about some of the protest movements on campuses about conflating Hamas with the Palestinians and like this sense of confusion. I was pretty somewhat younger uh during the Vietnam era, but I I seem to remember there was that same sense of confusion about Castlechan numbers. There was, there was, there was a confusion for sure. And I was just wondering what your thoughts are about all of that and and what that says about the state of journalism right now.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

You know, Vietnam was an incredible challenge journalistically because on a daily basis in Saigon, I was there as the New York Times Bureau Chief, heading up what was then the largest overseas bureau in the world for the New York Times. And every day there would be a briefing from the military U.S. military about the previous 24 hours action, and they would describe elevated body counts and victories that simply didn't exist. So much so they were known, the briefings were known to among reporters as the five o'clock follies. Um so what you had to do as a reporter was listen to them, question them, and then send either you go out yourself or send somebody out into the field to talk to the local commander and find out the real story. And they were rarely the same. So now you come all these years later to this situation where the fog of war is even more dense than it was then, and it was pretty dense, and where it's very hard to take the Pentagon's story seriously, uh we have the most unqualified Secretary of Defense in a hugely unqualified cabinet, yeah, and that is just a fact, yeah. And so it's very hard for journalists today to give an accurate picture of what's going on in Iran. I had in on my desk here two front pages of today's paper, right? New York Times, the Wall Street Journal.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Today being June 12th, 2026.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Correct. And the headline in the New York Times print edition delivered on my doorstep. I'm one of the few hundred thousand who still print edition, yes, out of twelve point something million subscribers. Anyway, the New York Times headline is interesting. It says Trump pivoting again calls off new barrage in Iran, claiming deal is near. Notice the claiming deal is near. Reversal after threatening oil takeover. So you get just from that headline, you get the tone of skepticism, which is quite good and honest and justified.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

And here's some Wall Street Journal, a little bit different, generally a little friendlier to Donald Trump.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

More conservative, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

And more conservative. And the headline reads same story. President backs off attacks on Iran. Eyes deal. Trump says last points resolved for Pact. Tehran denies, quote, final conclusion. So you're left with absolute gibberish. How are you sub you, the reader, you the ordinary citizen, uh, how are you supposed to interpret that? You know, it's it's a muddle. And it's a muddle for journalists as well. And I know I get it, it's an intentional model. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

I'm supposed to confident. It's it's uh no, I wanted to mention one thing. Um I don't know if this is pending a tiny bit, but uh as I was planning and thinking about our questions today, I was thinking back to again the message from Donald Trump for 10 years. He's been had that mantra of fake news, fake news, fake news. I remember that I looked up the article in 2016, Leslie Stahl of 60 Minutes, which is quite in the news at the moment, as we know, said they were just meeting to prepare for an upcoming 60 Minutes interview. And she said she met with a Trump in Trump Tower to prepare in advance of a recorded interview for 60 minutes. And she said, at one point he started to attack the press. There were no cameras in the room. I said, You know, this is getting tired. Why are you doing it over and over? It's boring, and it's time to end that. You know, you've won. Why do you keep hammering it? This tall recalled. And he said, You know why I do it? I do it to discredit you all and demean you all so that when you write negative stories about me, no one will believe you.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yeah. Well, that's just uh a page out of uh yeah, well, one of one of the uh members of the Nazi Party, the the gentleman who was the propagandist, if you say something long enough, loud enough, and often enough, people will begin to believe it. And that's part of, you know, Trump has been characterized as a master marketer. And if you look at a lot of what he has to say, and marketing is all about creating scarcity, creating division, creating an emotional position so that people act. It's not about reporting the facts, it's not about trying to reassure people, it's about getting an emotion going. And that's very much how he conveys things. For a generalist, it's impossible to sort through that sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Right. I believe President Trump did listen to Joseph Goebbel uh in that notion that if you repeat something over and over, it will eventually become fact. And that he has applies it in his own life. Yes. And his legal strategy came directly from the late Roy Cohen.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

You know, so that's his strategy. We all well, we know that. This is a second term. Exactly. Americans, American voters should know that, should take that into account.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Yeah, and if they had issues with his policy, well, Project 2025 was all over the airwaves, and the Democrats at least tried to highlight what some of those political stances were that we now find so uh counter to our values.

unknown 21:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

And again, I don't know, I don't mean to be the fellow who like keeps pivoting the new directions here, but on the basis of what we were just discussing there, I would like Gary, I'd love to hear your thoughts about this. It's funny, you know, again, I think this might be episode 15 or 16 of our show. And I've always tried to not be so polarized. It's funny. I like social media, and like I'm tempted to retweet everything. It's like, assume the worst, everything's dare. You know, yes, yes, I'm attempted to do that. But uh, you know, a lot of our friends back at CBS News are very concerned about Barry Weiss's leadership of CBS News and the destruction of uh 60 Minutes and the very controversial, you know, at the time we're recording this, the very controversial abrupt departure Scott Pelley saying you're Murdering this institution, and I was thinking, is there anything good about what's doing with in I I I think that Barry Weiss, who I would say is unqualified, is trying to say, well, the times change, you know, that this show has been the same for 60 years. Like that's probably why I love it so much. But how do you balance, like you said, you're one of the few people, hundreds of a hundred thousand, and still has the New York Times delivered on your doorstep, but people's habits and journalism has changed. And I hope we never lose sight of you know the watchdog role and serving the public and all that. But things do change. And it's like, how do we balance all these things?

SPEAKER_02 22:38

Barry Weiss was an opinion writer at the New York Times and argued repeatedly and vociferously with her colleagues, with the rest of the staff, usually on issues involving Israel. She's very pro-Israel and objected to anybody who wasn't. Finally, it became the atmosphere at the New York Times opinion section got to be so uh brittle that she was asked to leave. And she did leave. Now, to her credit, she then went and formed a successful website called the Free Press and managed brilliantly, I suppose, to persuade David Ellison, the owner of Sky Dance and now Paramount, to and CBS, to pay her $150 million for the free press, and to name her executive editor and top person at CBS News. She knows the coup television and has demonstrated that again and again.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Quite a coup on her part. Yeah. But again, talking about the dismantling of CBS, which is kind of near and dear to both of us. I mean, I grew up watching, I remember when they said Waldo Cronkite had a higher approval rating than Ronald Reagan and Dan Rather being the beat reporter for the Kennedy assassination, and and then so many, you know, CBS is the pantheon of it. It's synonymous, I believe, with television news. But to see it dismantled like this, you know, first CBS radio, now 60 minutes, and this under this cloak of you know, the the product needs to evolve. No, the it's more of the product needs to move in a direction that's consistent with the administration. And it's so transparent that it must rankle with somebody with with your background, Terry. Of course it does.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

It is shocking to me, and what I think you have to trace it back to is let's let's be realistic here. The dismantling of CBS News is a direct result of the new owner, David Ellison's desire to cozy up to Donald Trump and to get approval of his proposed $110 billion bid to buy and take over Warner Brothers Discovery, which uh will also include, incidentally, CNN.

unknown 25:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

And so he is clear that is project goal number one for him.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

And he needs to do, obviously, whatever he thinks is necessary to get the federal approval that is crucial to that very large dollar deal.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Even though in any other administration this would not pass the litmus test of any trust. And if we had a functioning FCF federal communications commissioner, it wouldn't even get past his desk.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

And one of the was it on Stephen Colbert or one of one of the Jimmy Kimmel or something, uh Robert Janeiro parodied the FCC chairman. It's like, you're gonna do this the hard way or the easy way. It's like a good fellow's type persona. It's like terrible. Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Well, he he went after Scott Pelley in his comments defending Barry Weiss and the administration. That's he's supposed to be independent.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

It's interesting that he did go after those comments that you know it's this dismantling, is your that's the term you're using, and I don't disagree with it, is so wrong and comes at a time, and Scott Pelley pointed this out, it comes at a time when 60 Minutes was building audience, added nine, what was it, nine percent more uh viewers in the last season, and it's building so 60 Minutes was not in trouble. No, not financially.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

It was the number one rated news show.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Yeah. So I mean it's all it's so transparent as to what's really going on here that I think I suspect the public recognizes it. Now, uh, you know, we are we may lament it more than the average viewer, but I'm not sure. There are a lot of lot of fans of 60 Minutes and people like Scott Pelley and Cecilia Vega and Sharon Alphonse and the great executive producer Tanya Simon, who you know Tom Martin was is the daughter of the late Bob Simon.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Yeah, amazing guy.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Yeah, one of the things I'd love to I'd love to hear, I'm sorry, Richard, I'd mean to interrupt. I'd love to hear, you know, sure. Both would love to hear your thoughts about young journalists just starting out now. I'd like to believe there's gonna always be, you know, investigative journalists and people who feel a strong sense of serving the public and courageous and you know, all of those qualities against this multimillion dollar conglomerate's crushing quality and integrity. Um what are what are your thoughts about all of that?

SPEAKER_02 28:13

It is a fact that the uh attendance at journalism schools, I'm thinking of graduate schools particularly, but journalism programs at the university level is up. Now, think about that for a minute. Because they're going into a totally changed world where everything is different and all kinds of conditions suggest chaos, and yet they care enough about it to do it, to make a career out of it. And they recognize, I'm sure, that the method of delivery of journalism to an audience is radically different and will continue to change. And they recognize, I believe, that uh they have to observe those basic principles that you were talking about, and they have to know how to do it in print. I mean, in with words, in writing, in broadcasting, and tele. You have to do everything. Absolutely everything. Podcasts, the whole thing. So they know that. They're going into it, and they're still coming. So that tells me that there are people who agree with you, Tom Martin. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Yeah, and and I think obviously the way news is delivered today is not exclusively on over-the-air TV or even cable news. Tom and I have talked about what's going to happen with the Stephen Colbert's and the Scott Pellys and all the others who have been ushered off of their traditional programs. There's an organization called the Midas Touch, which is a podcast, a left-wing podcast that now has nine and a half million subscribers on YouTube. That's where things are headed. And that's where Tom and I are kicking around this idea of, well, someone needs to start a true journalist network on whether it's YouTube or social media, where people do speak the truth about true journalism without exposure to the harm of the of the administration or of corporatists who are sowing their influence for whatever reason with the administration, where the editorialness, the editorial positions, can be done without any without any filters. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

Well, and look at look at who um at the growth, for example, of all the mostly website online reporting on the news business. From Brian Stelter with his reliable sources to uh half a dozen others. Yeah there the news is in the news. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

There are there are websites like All Sides, which take a news story and reflect on the left-wing version, the left-leaning, the center, the right center, and the right version, and then kind of synthesize what are the facts around this story that we really need to get to, in spite of the way each of these five directions can spin it in a different way that's predicated based on its audience. Right. So you're right. They're uh and thankfully for that, because people need to we've lost sight of the facts because you know, cable news is left wing, right wing, you know, it's it's designed to pit one another against one another instead of having what we used to have, which was our discourse, but one that was respectful. Yeah, you know, like Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan could spar at each other in in a session and then go out for a beer afterwards, but we have none of that civility anymore.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

I think it was bourbon, actually.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

All right, I think probably just have time for one or two questions, but one for you. I don't know if this is too naive, but I do like what you shared with us about journalism schools and what young people are thinking these days, and you know, that they're they know what they're getting into. I was just curious if you think that you know that the general public will see through the Barry Weissitz and see through Jeff Nazos decimating and the Washington Post and stuff like this, and then realize that we do need journalism, we do need to know what's going on in the world. We there's many journalists with integrity, you know, worthy of our appreciation. I mean, I'd like you know I'd like to feel that there's some hook for you.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

I think there is. You know, don't despair. The people care about the world around them and need to know about it. And uh as long as that's true, and I think it will be true, then there's a role for to use your phrase, true journalism.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

I'm happy to hear out. We're hoping so. And uh to your point, uh Terry, uh, I think people are smart enough to recognize that the last couple of years and even the four years prior in the first Trump administration, that you know, that there's a lot of uh untruths being told, and there's a lot of promises not being either kept or even being reversed. And you know, after a while, people that begins to resonate with people, and hopefully uh they will be seeking what's really happening, not what they're being told.

SPEAKER_02 33:53

You asked me the other day, um Tom, you know, what what led me into journalism? Well, I I was born into it. My father was Red Smith, the sports columnist, and once the most widely read in the country. But what you don't may not know is that at that point in uh back in the 60s and 70s and 80s, the all five working males in the Smith family, including my uncle and cousin and so forth, were writing for New York City newspapers. Oh wow, the Brooklyn Evil, yeah. And one of the best was my was my uh uh female cousin. She was too. So it it went, and so that's that's what I tried to write about or give the perspective, and forgive the promotion here, but let me hold up the cover of this book. Yes, please. And the title, Four Wars, Five Presidents, a reporter's journey from Jerusalem to Saigon to the White House. Well, that's the story of how it came to pass. Yes, and of course it changes and goes on, but I think there are some good stories in there. And it's available on Amazon.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Here you can just now to get a copy. And and and also you have a website where people can read your blog posts. Uh, you write for Substack, also. Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Yes. We'll put all those links in our uh podcast so people have it handy. All right, we're gonna wrap up, I guess, with our final segment, which we call the wire top five propaganda stories.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

I'm also submitting our request for you to come back, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Absolutely. Absolutely. We have only scratched the surface on what is really an extraordinary career. Uh, I'm just so blessed to be here with you today. All right, turning to our five stories. The first story is about the U.S. strike that we mentioned on the civilian water infrastructure, which the Pentagon termed surgical strikes against military targets. When others may say when you attack a country's infrastructure with respect to water, electricity, food, or any of those things, that's a war crime. And NBC News geolocated it is a war crime, yeah. NBC News geolocated footage that confirms two drinking water reservoirs serving 20,000 civilians were destroyed. And, you know, Iran is a country in the midst of a desert. They don't have a lot of drinking water. In fact, a good portion of it comes from the sea, and uh processed that turned seawater into drinkable water. And there have been over 2,000 Iranian civilian deaths since this war has begun, but no one's really talking about that.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

The greatest contradiction in terms, and it goes back to Vietnam or anywhere, is that phrase you used, or they use, surgical strike. There is no such thing.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

What an oxymoron.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Yeah, it is an oxymoron, and we should recognize it as such. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

I think I can't resist throwing in. I've always loved that humor, as pointed as it was often by George Carlin, and he talked about peacekeeper missiles, and like you said, the oxymoron.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Jumbo, jumbo shrimp, yeah, all kinds of acronyms there, confredictions.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Story number two, and we've talked about this earlier in our uh discussion here. Trump saying the Iranian resolution, you know, peaceful resolution is near. And he pointed out that word claiming on the New York Times headline there. I thought that was really accurate. Uh, again, uh yesterday at the time we're recording this, she said a deal has been reached, it will be finalized shortly. And a number of news sources, like I often listen to CNN or what CNN is like, oh, this is the 39th time he's said. It's like, I really just don't know. But uh Iranian FN news source there says nothing has been finalized, reports are speculative. Uh Iran says the Strait of Four Moons is closed, U.S. Suncom says it's open. Again, the public doesn't know what to believe. And that's what I mean. Journalists telling us what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

And it's interesting that NBC News and Al Jazeera are on the same uh wavelength in terms of reporting. Um many of us turn to Al Jazeera for accurate reporting in that part of the world because obviously Israel has shut down local news in that respect. And I think American, many American journalists have found it difficult to get close to where they need to there.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

So that makes sense. I am also a regular viewer of BBC America. There's the PBS carries uh their evening broadcast every evening, and I try I record it every night, and I try to watch it as often as possible because you get a a more dispassionate reporting of um this seeming contradiction. So I think it's it's uh well worth looking at other sources: Al Jazeera English, BBC, World News, etc. Yeah, part of Bitcoin.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

And the Warren report, which I pick up too, which is from another nonprofit group. Speaking of which, the public broadcasting network has been gutted. Returning taxpayer money from biased media is the White House's justification for that. Which is just uh even though a judge blocked Trump originally on this on First Amendment grounds, which is an obvious call here, but 1,500 plus stations have already been damaged by this, with Congress's canceling of the $9 billion funding last July. Just another example of the administration revoking First Amendment rights for journalists trying to just do their jobs.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

I assume you probably keep in touch with your friends. You worked with that PBS News Hour on the media. I do.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

And um it's a very serious challenge, but it's one that I think they are managing very well. The PBS News Hour is all right, and one reality that won't surprise you is that when the government takes the money away, the private contributions increase. But they and they really have, but they don't last forever. And and yet neither do presidents, so we shall see. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Very astute point for sure, Tom. Our item number four, and when I first saw this months ago, video of the hallway at that point in the White House, the White House Hall of Shame, it just reminded me that some of those you know editorial cartoonists to show the big baby in his diaper. It's like it's so um, you know, then auto pen for for uh Biden just like give me a freaking break here. But uh they said it's holding the media accountable for fake news. We we know where the fake news is coming from. But there are incursions into late journalism as being not forget all those classified files of the bathroom at Mar-a-Lago. I'm I'm just a few miles from Mar-a-Lago here in South Florida, as a matter of fact. I don't plan to miss it, by the way, but uh just like oh my god, we're gonna rename our airport after this guy, also. I don't either, but the FBI has rated Washington Post reported. Don Lemon of CNN, and given after he'd left CNN, lives there at a church seeking to speak to ICE, uh people protesting ICE, you know, like how Bruce Springsteen wrote a song about the streets of Minneapolis.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

I give him credit.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

But uh the White House has seized press pool rotations away from the White House Correspondents Association, not to mention the altercation at that dinner. And some I try not to fall into conspiracy thinking, but it's like we don't really know how that all unfolded. It just it's just a crazy time. So back to you, Rick.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Yeah, and our final story is about the Gaza phase two ceasefire talks, which the president indicated the Board of Peace is managing the ceasefire process, trying to again distance himself from the scenario that he uh initiated. Board of Peace, of course, is made up of his handpicked cronies and people who contributed gobs of money to be a part of that very select group of people. We'll see.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

Richard, you and I will see him all that the UFC thing that they set up on the front lawn of the White House, right? You're going, Green.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

And it's interesting that one of their one of their champion uh uh champion fighters said that it's dead wrong for the to do something like that. But again, Trump is a populist culture figure. He was uh heavily into professional wrestling. That's where he built a lot of his earlier following. And and and that's those are his people.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

You might see these posts also that again, I spent a lot of time on Facebook, for better or worse. So I'm curious what people are saying about our beloved show where you and I worked together years ago, C CBS Sunday morning. And so at one point, a couple months ago, they actually had a story, a video story about Dana White and the UFC, and like one element about people slapping each other across the it's like if Charles Carald had seen that, he would he would be scraped. It's like what and so so loyal viewers and see Sunday morning had so many loyal viewers they'd get up early, and it was not, you know, we maybe didn't have ratings of 60 minutes or anything, but it's such loyal viewers. It's like, what's going on here?

SPEAKER_02 43:56

It's and it's remarkable, it's remarkable to Um that the that CPS Sunday morning has built audience and has a very loyal audience and continues to do excellent work. So far, they have avoided the attention of Barry Weiss and uh David Ellison and others. It's my hope that will continue because it's a fine broadcast.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

Yes, yes, it is. And I I was just about to say uh I remember you know Sam Donaldson uh and his coverage of the Reagan White House. Boy, we we missed that. I know Tom mentioned earlier about we did a piece just uh a week or so ago with uh another pantheon and uh female journalist who and we talked about how the lack of respect of this administration and mistrust and misuse and abuse of female journalists is really telling and distressing.

SPEAKER_02 45:01

Enemy of the people. That's the phrase the president uses about the media term enemy of the people. Yeah, you know, mine has a certain Nazi ring to it, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 45:13

You know, I I postulated that they must have uploaded Mein Kampf to Chat GPT and created a business plan out of that.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

And in all seriousness, I mean it sounds like a horrible joke, but there's one other story uh that I would add to your list of five that doesn't get enough attention, in my opinion. That is a situation on the West Bank of the Jordan, where ethno-nationalist settlers, Israeli settlers, are physically attacking and in some cases even killing Palestinians who have been there for generations. And the government is looking the other way, and this has gone on because of the deal that Netanyahu made with extreme right-wing parties to put together his very fragile coalition. Coalition, yeah. And so I think the news organizations need to continue to pay attention and maybe even do more reporting and get more people into the West Bank of the Jordan to report what's going on because it's a scandal. Good point. Thank you for mentioning.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Yeah, thanks for bringing that uh to the forefront. And you're right, that is a big scandal, one of just many going on in that region of the world. All right, we're uh about to wrap things up. This has been an honor and a privilege, Terry. And thank you. I know you've covered again five presidents in four wars, and folks read his landmark book. We highly recommend it. And you never stop writing, you continue to write, you continue to pull out, which is really how we see you honoring true journalism. So we we're privileged to have you today. So thank you for coming.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

It's been an honor, and uh, we already have that request. We want you back this time. Yes, thank you, Chair. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

All right, thank you both. And I typically close with what Edward Armorow said at the end of every one of his broadcasts, folks, and that's good night, in this case, good afternoon, and good luck.