Dawn's Early Light Podcast Episode 11: Abortion

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Alright we're back with episode 11 of the Bonds or Light Podcast Double Digits feels good kind of out here. We're gonna start now that we're back in our tabling season and it's nicer outside. We can beautiful today. Yeah, hopefully we don't get another like eighth winter this year or whatever's doing to us. Um yeah now that we're getting back into our tabling season, we wanted to go over some of the topics that people like to talk to us about. So we're gonna start with a pretty heavy one today, and that's gonna be abortion. Abortion. It's probably gonna be a full episode because it's the big one.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Yeah, it's uh it's probably one of the most um hot button issues of all time, really. I mean, if you look at it from an outsider looking in, one side believes you're taking away uh a woman's human right to to choose, which I don't agree with, but the other side thinks that you're murdering a baby. That's like the worst thing you could possibly do.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Yeah, so it's a pretty hot button issue, so it is, and I'd like to really preface this, and really going forward in the other episodes that we do with heavy topics like this, is it seems that people really want, and I've been watching a lot of podcasters and YouTube videos, and people will say this a lot, and it's a theme I kind of want to live by. The idea that we want simple answers to very complex issues, right? We really want to like come and talk to somebody and be like, alright, disprove this or prove this to me in like five minutes. It's like that just isn't really a feasible discussion to have. I know every time that we talked about abortion or second amendment or any of these hot button issues on campus, it was like one to two hours of talking. With somebody who really wanted like to debate us about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

If somebody really wanted to sit and talk, we could talk about it for hours.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Yeah, so I just want to kind of prevace the idea that there's no like super easy, like, oh yeah, this is the gotcha, this is the easy answer. It's a it's a big issue, and so we're gonna really dive into it today. Right. Unless you're Christian. If you're Christian, yeah, then it's pretty crazy. Pretty cut and dry. Well, and that's the thing, is like I feel like this is a cut and dry issue for us. The left feels like it's a cut and dry issue for them, and it really that's what brings up the heated debate, I feel like.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

So this is gonna be an episode of us obviously giving our views, but then potentially uh debunking or uh kind of coming up with the uh the objections to uh pro-choice argumentation. Some like devil's advocate or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Yeah, I'd like the first half to kind of be like our stance, and then the second half, um, yeah, that kind of debunking. So yeah, if you want to start, um the uh what's the name of the study? I always forget, it's like Guten Gun something, the Panned Parenthood Study. Yeah, the Guten Guten Machin study. Guten Machin, and I should have looked at it before this, but so yeah, the Gutenmachin Gutenmach study. Gutenbach, Gutenberg. Gutenbach, something like that. It was a huge study done, I want to say in like 2005, it was pretty early, I feel like. Um early 2000s, and this was uh funded by Planned Parenthood, if I'm not mistaken. So it's um gonna be more lenient on the left than it is our viewpoint. The bias leans towards that of a pro-choice argument. Yeah, and it was the biggest study ever conducted on abortion and kind of just looking at the numerics of who's using it in this way, who's using it in that way. And so when we look at it, it was about 95% of all abortions are used as a form of birth control. Just uh, you know, I was sleeping around, I was oopsy b oopsy daisies, we have a baby now, I don't want to deal with it. Yep. Um so that makes up about 95%. And so 95 out of the millions of abortions, like 95% of the millions of abortions.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Millions of abortions.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

And then I'm gonna butcher the statistics. I should have looked at it before we we did this, but I used to remember these like off the top of my head. Less than 1% is incest. So I think they they give that side about 1%. They say it's about 1% towards that 5%. So we'll call it 1% incest. Um I want to say it was about 2 to 3% life of the mother, uh, which is heavily debated now, especially now that we've come so far with technology, 20 plus years later. Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

C-sections are always a C section, an option, or not always, but a a large amount of the time.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

And we've had an alternative. And we've had babies survive outside of the womb at what was that one, 20 weeks? 21 weeks, 20 weeks, something like that, yeah. And our technology is only gonna keep improving. So I mean, we we don't go down from there, we go up. So life of the mother is becoming a a less abandoned.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

And there's an increasing number of um natal doctors who are saying that there are really no cases in which an abortion is medically necessary to save the life of a mother. And I do want to because of C-section.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Yeah, and I do want to dive into that quite a bit when we get there, um, because that is a really interesting one. And then I think the last like one to two percent is obviously uh rape. And that's the biggest contention with a lot of people. So I don't know, I always envision this as like a flow chart when when I think about debating somebody or like having a conversation with somebody about abortion. So you think about the whole abortion issue, there's usually three sects of people that I envision that branch from it. You have people like myself and Cooper, who are in this like branch of abortion is wrong in every circumstance. Like the life of the baby matters 100%. Then we have the other two sects, which is usually what we end up debating, and you have the one sect which believes that abortion is right in every circumstance, 100% of abortions are right. And then you'll you'll have people, and I found myself talking to a lot, actually quite a few people, who are in the sect that they believe that the 95% is wrong, but the 5% is justified. And that's where the m- that's where the majority of people we've come across fall into. I I would I would say, yeah. And so I the two branches that I see that sects from that viewpoint are either I disagree with the 95%, but we need to just legalize abortion all the way, otherwise you're gonna get some like weird cases where people are claiming rape, claiming incest, claiming life of the mother when it's not true. And then you have the other sect that's like we should just outlaw the 95% and go case by case with the other 5%. And so that's where I'd like to start because I feel like that's the more nuanced, or like that's where really a lot of people end up lying, is when you ask them, like, can we just admit that like murdering kids because you were sleeping around and you accidentally had a kid is wrong? And they're like, Yeah, that's fair. But now we're gonna get into rape, incest, and life of the mother. I think that's where the the meat of the argument lies. Yes, I I agree.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

That's where a lot of people kind of have their hang-ups. Um and it really comes down to what do you value more? Somebody's human rights in order to not be killed, or somebody's right to get rid of the consequence of a rape. And in my opinion, and while I mean, raping somebody is one of the worst things that you can do to somebody. Like right up there with like murder and torture and you know all of these kind of very, very terrible things, uh, rape is a uniquely evil crime, also due to the fact that it can it can the trauma that can carry through a victim can even go through generations. And uh when you look at what uh comes out of these cases where a rape victim does get pregnant by their rapist, it's obviously one of the worst tragedies that somebody could be going through. And you know, obviously my heart goes out to that person, but I don't think you can cross the line into taking the baby's life as a sort of remedy for your trauma. I don't think that you have the right to kill anybody uh in order to improve your mental well-being. I just don't, I don't my line is drawn before that.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

And I'll piggy up piggyback off that a little bit, because that's a really big point of contention. In my mind, is like we we don't allow murder anywhere else uh out of pure convenience. Because something is smaller than you and it's convenient, you can kill it. We don't take that into account. And the example that or the yeah, the example I guess I always like to bring up is what's the difference between, you know, maybe a a mother who g had a got raped and that's again very unfortunate. Um, but her taking the life of that child, and then you know, maybe a mother who's had a baby for a year and then gets a divorce and loses her job, you know, something tragic. Why why is that different taking that life then than aborting the life before it's you know born.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Or taking another step further, you have a child and in a consensual way with somebody, and then that person later decides to rape you after that child's been born. It doesn't give you the right to kill that child that is of that person after that person's born, right? It's not a it's there's some moral conundrums that kind of branch off of that.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah, and so I'd say the big uh talking point is I I think kind of the blanket statement that really puts us in that sect of like abortion is wrong is just the idea that innocent life should be is sacred no matter what.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

It should be protected at all costs.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

You should not take an innocent life, we're gonna emphasize the word innocent life in any circumstance. And that's yes, you know, whether it's uh in the womb, outside the womb, doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Right, it's different when somebody tries to rape somebody, right? That person has thrown away their their right to life in that instance, right? They if somebody is actively raping somebody, obviously it is okay to kill that person to stop them from raping somebody. Same if they're trying to kill somebody or or kidnap somebody or whatever it may be, right? Um you have to you have to draw the line at innocence and a baby obviously has done nothing to uh to warrant them their life being taken. Uh they're just literally sitting there growing. There's nothing that they've done.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

There's no malicious intents.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Right, no, there's no uh there's no sin that is being committed, right? Um and that's where my stance derives from as well is uh human life should be protected. And I believe all humans are created equally and in the image of God. And because all humans in my worldview are equal, that applies to humans at the earliest stages of development and even at the latest stages of development. Somebody on hospice who's got a ventilator and you know is about to die, it does not give you the right to bash their head in, right? Just because oh they're gonna die anyway. No, that's not how the world works, that's not how my worldview works. Um the same at the earliest stage of development. Just because it's helpless and small and it doesn't look like us doesn't mean that that is not a unique human being with its own set of DNA that's growing, that is alive by the standard of life. Um and if left alone for nine months, it will be will uh the vast majority of time become a healthy human uh newborn baby.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

So And that is one of the a little bit later, one of the devil's advocate points want to get into is like when does life start, and we can go over that. Uh but yeah, the next the next kind of point of contention in that category of the five percent is uh incest. So if rape, that's an issue, incest, that's an issue, makes up all uh you know, we'll be generous, 1% of abortions, incest abortions. What's your kind of thoughts about that?

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Well, obviously, you know, if it's like a a father raping his daughter, which is again one of the worst things that you could probably ever do, um that's obviously an incredible tragedy that should be taken with like the utmost amount of reverence and uh treated very carefully. But again, my line is drawn before like before that marker of you do not have the right to kill the baby just because it may be disadvantaged, just because it may have birth defects, um, just because it was conceived in a rape. Um and even if the incest was not in uh a rape scenario, if it's two, I guess, over 18 adults that are doing it, um, again, gross. But if it's uh two over 18 adults that are doing it, then uh it again the the moral case there is that oh well that baby's gonna be really messed up and we should probably just kill it now before it suffers later. Which I don't agree with because if you if you obviously medical uh screenings for babies are pretty accurate, but they can also miss sometimes. And just because somebody may be born with a deep birth defect does not make their life any less valuable. In fact, I think it actually uh it's a a sign that if if if a culture is okay with people having birth defects, it's a sign of an advanced culture because we understand that we're all equal and that we all have this innate value that we are born with that God has given us that we cannot infringe upon that just because somebody may look different or act different or they may suffer more than the average person. Uh it does it does not mean that you should be able to kill them.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Yeah, I'll piggyback off of that because that's where I feel like people tend to go, is the idea that it's gonna be messed up, so we should just get rid of it. And that's a scary concept because that's a form of eugenics. We talked about that a little bit in the the Canada episode, episode 10. Check it out if you haven't. Uh episode 10, we talked a little bit about how Canada is now allowing euthanization of just their, you know, government-funded euthanization of their people because it's out of basically convenience. But that idea that if we start doing kind of what Denmark does and being like, ah you're you might be born with Down syndrome, we're just gonna kill you, we're gonna nip it in the bud right now. Yeah, that is eugenics, a Nazi practice. So I don't uh that feels like a really even comparable, and that's that's kind of scary. That gets into some dangerous territory, oh yeah, and that can really digress quickly into ah now you're gonna be born this way.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Oh, your skin's a little darker. Well, you know, maybe we should just off you instead. Oh, you uh you're gonna be um you're not gonna have the right eye color. Yeah, parents wanted a baby with blue eyes, not brown eyes, so let's kill this one.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

And that's a very scary thing that uh what's it called? IVS? Is that uh IVF. IVF hypervetal fertilization fertilization. The idea that which that's still a very nuanced subject for me that I've been doing a lot of research on. Um actually my old high school principal and me had a little, not a debate, but like a discussion about it because I was really like in the dark about it, trying to figure out what my opinion was on it. But in some of these cases, they'll fertilize like nine eggs, you know, because women can can produce uh quite a few eggs, so they'll fertilize like all nine, and then they'll allow the spouse, like the husband and the wife, to select which child. They'll be like, ah, this one might have Down syndrome, this one might have brown eyes. Again, that's a very scary concept that gets into this eugenics of like ah we're gonna be selective with with who's born, and that's just that's a little playing God. It is playing God's uh very dangerous, yeah. So that's my case for incest and against Against incest, yeah. Sorry. Um, and yeah, and then so the last one is life of the mother, and I know we talked about that briefly, but the idea that abortion and like like we talked about, doctors have really been coming to the conclusion that abortion just isn't necessary in these situations. Again, technology is only gonna keep improving, and if we've uh allowed a 21-week-old baby to survive, to it, you know, to term outside of the womb, I'm sure it'll just keep getting better, and I don't see a reason not to do a C-section.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

And if it and if it if the chances are very low and it doesn't pan out and the baby does die, at least you gave it a chance. And you didn't just you know, kill her right off the bat instead of giving her an actual fighting chance.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

My kid fell off a bike and broke her leg, just oh, he's got an ear infection. Put it down. Yeah, yeah. This this could kill him later in life, put him down. Right. That's or your kid has cancer.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Yeah, right. That again, that like you, you know, it doesn't mean that you just pop him in the head right there just because he's gonna suffer. No, you you fight it because you understand that that is a unique human life that obviously that person more than likely wants to try and live.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

There's a great influencer on Instagram, and I forget his name, but he is jacked, like he is absolutely humongous, and he's had cancer going on his fourth time. He's a very devout Christian, he's like, Yeah, I'm I'm glad to be here and like have a ministry through this, like blessings through hard times. But I mean it would have been very easy in in a world maybe 20 years down the road where that is legalized, just be like, ah, he's gonna be born with cancer, just nip it in the butt and get him out of here. So we don't want him to suffer. Yeah, he's gonna have a harder life than than some might just get him out now. Right. So, yeah, those are kind of the three sects that I always vision. Um well, and then I I think we should also just touch on the 95%. And so that's where that's where I was going. Yeah. Um, so the 95%, which is birth control for lack of a better term, but that's really what it is. It's the whoops, we I slept around, I had a kid, I just want to go on because I don't want to deal with it. Um I'm too young, I'm too poor. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

I mean, you know, a lot of uh a lot of people are like, oh, I I'm not ready to have a baby. Well, you know, if you're not ready to go to prison, don't rob a bank. Right? If you're not ready to uh I don't know, if you're not ready to Don't do the tango if you can go to the moon, don't get in a rocket. Yeah, there you go. If you're not ready to lose the jab. If you're not ready to have a kid, don't have sex. Yeah, it's pretty blatantly Yeah for those 95% of people uh where this baby was formed in a consensual way, well actually more like 98%, because um rape and incest only account for one to two percent.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Which which is where I was gonna go really quick uh with those three categories, those three subcategories, when they were doing this study, a woman could account for multiple. So, like if a woman was underage, raped by her cousin, and she was like 12, then you're gonna have complications with the with the delivery. So you're gonna have life with a mother, and it was rape, and it was incest. So a lot of those numerics tend to be interwoven, which is really interesting in a sense that like it's probably even less than we imagine it, but but still, I mean 98% of the millions of abortions are 98% of abortions are inexcusable in in my eyes, and I think you would agree.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

And uh, you know, just for the sake of clarity, like obviously we disagree with the fact that if you get pregnant in a consensual way, in or even not in a consensual way, this is my belief, you can't just kill the baby out of your own uh your own you know drive, your own will, your own uh decision. You that is not something that you have the right to do, uh, especially in a consensual uh situation where you find out that you're pregnant, it's like, oh, I'm in college. I mean I can't really have a baby right now, or else I'm gonna have to drop out and get a job and you know provide for this baby. Obviously, our worldview says that that is uh an evil decision if you choose to abort that baby. Um if you uh don't play stupid games if you don't want to win stupid prizes, right? Don't have sex if you're not ready to take care of a baby. It's pretty simple, and there would be millions and millions of children running around this world if it weren't for uh the lack of that kind of um perspective.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

It's the biggest uh genocide of our generation. Yeah. 30, what, 33% of Gen Z is been aborted? Yeah, that's one third, I'm pretty sure now, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

So I mean, that's so anytime you see uh somebody in Gen Z know that uh a third of that generation has been killed due to abortion. So for every two people there should be one more. Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

There should be another person here that, well, you know, yeah, sounds like vision. Yeah, there should be uh for every two two of us, there should be a third, which is you know crazy to think about. If you have a group you know, a group of 200 people, there should be 300. Like that's just how many lives have just been unjustly taken that just out of con sheer convenience, yeah. It's it's terrible. And so from a kind of digressing into like now a legal sense, like now that it's we're trying to like implement this in our government, when you think about this, and and we have you know, the people that we debate where it's like, oh, I believe the 95% is wrong, but we should just make it legal so people aren't doing it in sketchy ways, whatever your case may be.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Legal but rare is what we is kind of a talking point. Um you know, obviously they want it to be rare, but they also want it to be legal.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

I would say you give them an inch, they take a mile. We've seen it in just about every uh major political issue uh on both sides. I mean, if you if you give them an inch, they take a mile. And so I I think just like the Second Amendment, that I am incredibly strong on the idea that you should be able to own whatever gun you want. Because the second the government starts deciding which guns you ought to own, you're gonna own no guns. And that's just how it is. It's the same thing with abortion. The second you say, all right, we'll allow abortion for rape, well, uh well now we should do incest two, and now we should do life of the mother. Uh, just you know, ever you know, we can't really go case by case, just like if yeah, if you're in a certain tax bracket, or if you uh and then it'll just become spiral whenever you want. It does it all the time. So I'm I'm very firm on the stance of illegal no matter what, period. And that's a very blunted statement.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

And I I've I've uh I've seen people who advocate for um abortion up to the point of birth, and you know, it it it presents kind of a a strange worldview when somebody presents that where it's like, well, what's the difference? Just that they passed through the birth canal. That's like literally the only difference in that situation.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

You could kill it, you know, half an hour ago, but now now that it's out, now it, you know, it has now it has immediate like protect yeah, it's it's a weird and I guess that could be our our first kind of devil's advocate idea is the idea of like when when life starts or when you're allowed to get an abortion. So the biggest one that I hear is after the first trimester shouldn't be allowed, but anywhere prior, like first trimester you're allowed to abort. I've heard the argument um they don't have pain receptors, they don't have uh the right kind of brain waves, like they don't have human brain waves, they have like indistinguishable, indistinguishable brain waves, they don't have like full human features. Um I think the simplest argument to that is human features don't necessarily isn't what makes something human, it's it's human DNA, and I think that's really always we can boil it down to. I mean, I've I've seen many people that don't have arms and legs, and you don't go, ah, it's not a human anymore. You don't see a tripod dog and go, that that's gotta be a spider or something. Like you just, you know, you can't like change something just because it's missing a couple limbs or it looks it looks different.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Well yeah, I mean, you know, you could take that argument, that's the argument that uh the Confederate South would use to um describe black people or Nazi Germany would use to describe Jewish people. It's oh well they're they're not they're not fully human, you know, they're different, like they have black skin, or oh, they have uh big nose or whatever. You know, like you can't uh you can't look at human value on such a superficial level.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

And I I think that's what really starts we I I can't remember if we talked about this before. We're 11 episodes in, I already forget, but the idea that like the dehumanizing language that people will use and they use it for liberals, they use it for conservatives, they use it for people of different races, ethnicities, and for uh babies. I mean they you know if if you start calling something a zygote, it's a fetus, uh parasite parasite, then which is You're gonna look at it differently if you call it a baby, uh, which is another really big thing. If you say it's a it's a parasite up until the first trimester, and then after that it's a baby. Uh which is also a little side note, also what really gets me is that there's no like liberal doctor-defined like stance. There's not like ah, the doctors say after the first trimester, after the second trimester, like it's a no-go. There's always like everybody has their own opinion on like, oh well, maybe if they have these certain brainwaves, or maybe if they have toes, you know, like that kind of thing. It's it always changes. And our stance is always very consistent of it's a baby, the second DNA combines.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

I mean the second a unique strand of DNA is formed. There's a spark? Yeah. It's a baby. Yep, there's a baby. There is a, well, there's a you call it what you want, fetus zygote. A unique life form. Two-cell organism, right? Uh it there is a unique human life that has been created. And is at the earliest stage of development.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Like Cooper said that when left in its natural habitat, quote unquote, it'll become a functioning human after nine months in 99% of situations. So I think that's the the biggest one.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Oh yeah, absolutely. Uh you know, when that's kind of the and I've changed a few minds on abortion. Um, I won't name names, but I was in the car with somebody and I was talking about abortion with him, and he was like, oh yeah, you know, I think it's fine, you know, when if it's early enough, and I I kind of presented these cases to him. Well, you know, what makes you human, you know, and and how can you apply that to uh these situations where you obviously wouldn't murder somebody, like like somebody who's very elderly, who's on like the last breath of life, or um somebody who is in a coma, or somebody who is helpless, like a newborn baby. And he he I changed his mind on abortion, and it's uh and it was because he didn't really see the baby in the womb at the early stages of development as uh a human being.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Yeah, I had a really good conversation with the woman on campus. Like, I can't remember her name. It was one of the best abortion debates I've had, and she was very open to the idea of like her mind being changed, and I think I I changed it. Um yeah, just presenting the whole the whole argument. And my my favorite one for uh uh for like the field development of like the whole baby's life is the best analogy I've heard is the Polaroid. I think I told you about that one. It's a really good one. Yeah, the idea that like if you take a picture with a Polaroid camera, like if I took a picture of Cooper with a Polaroid camera, just because when it prints out it's black, it's still its predestination is going to be that it's gonna be a picture of Cooper. But if somebody and I I think the example that was given is like if I took a picture of aliens, like an alien's facial appears right here, Polaroid camera, take a picture of it, and it prints out and it's not fully developed yet, and Cooper rips it up and says, Well, it wasn't a picture of aliens yet, it's like, yeah, but it was going to be. Yeah. Like literally, you know, go. If you let it sit for nine minutes. Yeah, if you let it sit for a couple minutes and it would have been a picture of aliens, and I think that's like that one really clicked in my head. I think that's really good.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

It's a yeah, it's a great analogy that kind of illustrates the fact that you know to get to if things are going to be valuable potentially to you, and it's only a matter of time, then there should be value placed on the thing before it's valuable because it will eventually become valuable to you. You know, so when when somebody says, well, you know, I I just don't see that that very early developed uh human being as valuable as being worth protection, presenting that analogy I think is a really good. I I think that's the way to go about it.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Probably the best one I've ever I've ever come across. So yeah. I believe his it's the Council of Trent on YouTube is his YouTube channel. He's a Catholic, but I I like he's very smart. Um very smart guy. That was his that was his analogy. I don't want to lay claim to it, but it's a really good one. It is a good one. Yeah. So the next like devil's advocate kind of idea I have is the idea of abortion being a woman's right. So like they have a right to their bodily autonomy, you know, no uterus, no opinion, that kind of argument.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

That's that's just the that's uh completely logically uh incoherent. That's that's a very easy one to argue over. Yeah, that's a very easy uh over Oh if you're black you can't have an opinion on on slavery. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

You know, if if you're not a man, you can't have an opinion on rape penalties. Yeah, it's like there's there's you that just digresses immediately into like that's just a really yeah stupid, no uterus, no opinion. That's a that's a dumb one. But women, it's a woman's right. It's like their their right to their bodily autonomy. What's your what's your reply?

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Well, my reply there would be, well, what about the woman that's growing inside of you? What about her bodily autonomy? Uh the eventual woman, the little girl that's growing inside of uh the other woman's stomach. What about uh the bodily autonomy of that uh human being? And then that will transition into the argument before, but obviously, right, we don't have the right to do whatever we want with our bodies, right? I can't assault Caleb with my body because I want to. That's a crime. I can't murder Caleb with my body if I want to, right? So just because something is occurring to your body or some you have an urge to do something with your body or to your body doesn't mean that you have the right to do it. Uh you know, obviously a man can't get pregnant, which uh, you know, if you no uterus, no opinion is pretty transphobic, actually.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

It is actually, yeah. If I identify as a woman, then yeah. What then? What then?

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Exactly. But um a woman's right to choose does not trump a uh an innocent person's right to be alive. Um obviously, right, you can choose to do things to your body like cut your hair or get a tattoo or or whatever, right? Or you know, you can scar yourself up if you want to take it to a more extreme level. But like there is uh there is no justification for uh uh aggressing upon an innocent person. You there's no moral um consistency in that worldview.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Yeah, I agree. Uh the next one I was just thinking about is this comes up all the time, and I feel like this question comes up when somebody either realizes that they maybe are proven the other way, or maybe they don't have any arguments left. This one comes up quite a bit when people just want to disagree or they just feel like they want to be right. Uh the idea that, oh well, you guys you guys just care about the pre-born baby, not the postborn baby. I feel like that comes up quite a bit, like the idea that, oh, you guys you want the baby to be born, but then once it's born, it's like ah, off to the world. It's another logical fallacy.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

It is a logical fallacy. You don't care about two things at once. Um it does not uh you can add just because I'm not using 24 hours of my day advocating for the end of wars in certain places or the end of sex slavery or the end of whatever moral wrong you are opposed to does not mean that I actually don't care about it. That's a that's a logical fallacy. I can't remember what it's called, but it's got a it's got a name. Um paradox or something. Yeah, I can't remember what it's called, but um you can care about two things or multiple things at once, and just because I'm advocating for the abolition of abortion does not mean that I would not be in favor of supporting babies.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

Um, this is a big thing we were tabling because people kept bringing that up to me, and I eventually got to the point where I did a bunch of research on like foster care systems and adoption because I was like, I just I need to have like the armament ready because when people would say that, like, alright then debate me on the foster care system and and that stuff, and they're like, well hold on, because they weren't expecting to have like the the rebuttal.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

I was talking to this woman uh at UNL and this abortion came up and she was definitely on the pro-choice side. Um but she was like, Well, what have you done for um for children that have been uh or for children in foster care because she had been in foster care. And literally the night before that, I was watching uh two foster children from my friend's mom. They wanted to go to Lincoln uh to have a a a mother-daughter kind of day, and they asked me if I would be willing to watch them, and I absolutely accepted. And I watched uh Haley and Corey were their names, the two two great children. Um, and we watched Puff the Magic Dragon. That's great. That's great. The OG one too. Nice. Which is uh it's a great film. It's one of my favorites. Um but yeah, I mean, and that shut her down right away. Uh but obviously that's not I shut her down in the way of like an appeal to a an appeal to uh authority or an app no an appeal to what you're representing, like representative. An appeal to experience or something like that, yeah, whatever that is. Um where I should have just countered the claim at the root, uh, which is that that's logically in inconsistent.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

It goes right back into the yeah, just a logical fallacy. Okay, what have you done for the war in Ukraine? What have you done for the Right? What have you done for I mean, what have you done for children with cancer?

SPEAKER_01 34:38

What have you done for rape victims and like all these drug mules getting moved across the southern border? What have you done for I mean any sort of injustice that you can think of, like just if you haven't, just because you're not advocating for that thing currently, or I guess advocating against that thing currently, does not mean that you're in support of that thing. Exactly, yeah. Uh that's the that you can't support another thing.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

It's just that's such a stupid it is, and I always feel like people bring it up when they're when they realize that there's like no more roads to turn. I think it's at the dead end, they just go up and it's like whoa, that was a weird one. Or they just no clip into the grid. Yeah, they do start like prop surfing with the gaze my web and physics gun. Yeah, those are the those are the big ones that feel like they're brought up. Do you have any more?

SPEAKER_01 35:27

Any ideas of like um yeah, so another um another thing about abortion is well, we don't another argument that the that pro choicers will make is that well, you know, a lot of abortions happen because they don't want the baby to grow up in a bad environment with maybe like drug use or uh low income or the risk of like sexual assault or some of these kind of very bad things. And obviously, in a perfect world we would never want somebody to ever have to go through that. But that does not mean that you kill them before they get the opportunity to even uh see what their situation's going to be like, right? Like if two drug if two drug junkies are gonna have a baby, right? Does not mean that you shoot the baby as it comes out of the womb because you know that that child's gonna be more uh likely to get uh stuck with a needle in the trailer park, right? That's just that's a completely logical, again, illogical and uh inconsistent worldview. Um, you you wouldn't just shoot a toddler that's living in a uh a drug addict's home, right? You would you would definitely do something else before uh before you did that.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

And we have the last thing on the list. Yeah, we have like child protective services and we have things in place for that. And I will say, I can I don't even think I can count on both hands. The people that I've I've met and worked with and friends that I've had. Like I had a really close friend who made a lot of mistakes, was into drugs and alcohol and whatever. And he had a kid and he locked in like immediately. It was it was incredible. It was like a completely different person, and we hang out now all the time, and it's like wow, that like the the change. And I I've worked with a couple of people, worked with a really good guy, and he was telling me the other day, he's like, Oh yeah, I was really d into like hardcore drugs, and then I had my first kid and I was like done clean and sober for like 11 years. Yeah. It's it's a real thing. I mean, people have a kid and it changes their whole life, and so obviously that's not every single case, but it doesn't mean you just you know execute the baby because you think ah you might end up in a in a bad place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

At a more root level, like that child's uh human rights don't end at their tax bracket or their likelihood to um get stuck with a needle or their likelihood to get sexually assaulted, right? Just because somebody's more uh has a higher proclivity to uh be uh you know to be um exposed to these things does not mean that that person has less value than say somebody born in you know downtown Abbey or the loyal family, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:03

And I will say it's a real thing, I'm gonna try try to sound not like too harsh about the topic, but the idea that people that grow up in harsher environments a lot of the times tend to be a lot better than people that grow up in like you know perfect, like oh yes. I mean it builds I mean I mean it builds characters. It does. I mean I've met my fair share of like rich brats and entitled people, and and you look at them and you think like my parents are maybe a little bit harder on me, but I'm I'm glad now because I didn't end up like that. And it's it's the same concept where you you might grow up in a really harsh situation, but that can really pressure mix diamonds. I mean, you know, that's always the the idea that you can you can still have a have a good outcome.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

I mean you well think of people who were born into poverty or born into bad situations and how great they've become. Like in Gandhi. Um Gandhi has some personal issues, but you know, like he was a very, you know, uh influential person, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:56

But even think about a lot of like celebrities who they'll give their stories and you know, like, oh I grew up in like the you know, OBLOC or you know, Chicago and like just like terrible cities, and they were able to become a successful athlete, and then you look at their kids, and their kids are like you know, rich brats, and it it's it's incredible to see like this person grew up not so well and made it in life, and then their kids started at that high point and then they tend to go downhill. It's it's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yeah, your situation does not determine uh your value. It does not determine somebody's right to kill you, yeah, even your own mother.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Yeah, and and and that goes right back into kind of the point that we made earlier. What if you had you know a completely normal family and they have a kid and then they get into hard drugs? Are you now eligible to kill that kid because the hard drugs can't post? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Like there's just there's so many situations that that just opens the door for well it all kind of stems back to when do you place human rights on the child growing? Right? And from our worldview, it's right at the beginning. Uh unfortunately that's not the worldview of most people, and the world would definitely be filled with more people and more more children if uh people held that similar view.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

And who knows, but be very, very grateful. Yeah, but but having this conversation I feel like is incredibly important because, like we've said, we've already changed possibly a couple minds on the idea. And I think that if people really hear the full argument from beginning to end, like no yelling, no like ah, you're just wrong, and I got you because of this one case in you know 1948 where the woman died because you haven't like whatever. Like you really just sit down and have like the the honest debate. I think a lot of people come to the idea that like, oh, maybe the social media influencer who's saying abortion is right because you know women's rights wasn't right.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

So well, and you know, a um abortion is a topic that I've actually changed the most minds about because I feel like this is one of the few political issues that in my opinion are is pretty black and white. And obviously there's those gray areas, right, with rape and incest, but those make up one to two percent of all abortions, right? So um when when you look at a lot of political issues that we debate, it's not it's not common that we change minds. It's more common that we just kind of give each other's opinions, and maybe a little gay a little ground is great gained here and a little ground is lost here, but it doesn't our minds aren't usually flipped. But this one I could I could never see my mind flipping on, and I've only ever really seen uh when we talk to people their minds flip toward our side. And obviously, if you're if your side is advocating for the preservation of life, that side is more than likely the moral good. And if the other side, and that's what abortion is, by the way, like let's not get that confused. Abortion is the ending of the child's life in the womb. If if it wasn't alive, you wouldn't have to kill it, right? So um the an abortion is the ending of a human life, and more times than not, uh, especially when it involves children and babies, uh when you're on the side of protecting that thing instead of uh getting rid of that thing, it it is the it is the morally good side.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

And I think that really ties into like the idea of using that dehumanizing language because when you go on you know Instagram and TikTok and you hear some social media influencer say, oh, we're just gonna abort the zygote because it's inconvenient to the mother, it's a lot different hearing it from us who say you're gonna murder the child out of inconvenience. You know, those are two very different ways to word the exact same thing.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

And it's so confusing why we have this standard for humans and not like animals, right? If we saw a chicken egg, right, we wouldn't say, oh, that's just a that's not a chicken. It's like, no, that's there's a chicken in there. It's like, yeah, uh you wouldn't, you would, you would, you would call it a chick, right? It would be a uh nobody would, you know, if you said, oh no. You you watch a chicken lay an egg and somebody goes, oh, that's not actually a chicken in there. That's actually a parasite and it's not actually a chicken. You'd be like, what are you talking about? There's a chicken in there.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Speaking of animals, one of my favorite paradoxes is like a vegan that's pro-abortion. Yeah. It's like, oh yeah, save the lives of the the cows, but ah, the baby. Nah.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Right. Or they won't eat eggs, right? Because you know, they're killing baby animals. Which I'm fine with. I'm fine with killing baby animals for food.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

You know, which I mean actually, which is funny because eggs, if eggs aren't fertilized, yeah, if they're unfertilized, you're not even killing a chicken. So I mean, but like I'm fine with farming animals.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Yep. Yeah, I that's a pretty normal stance to have if you understand how you get your food. Um, but we don't have that same standard. of thought for people. For some reason, well, I know the reason, right? It's because people want to have sex and not deal with the consequence of raising a child. That's really what it comes down to. And obviously, you know, there is a a huge more or a logical gap if you are somebody who says, oh yeah, that's a that cat's pregnant, there are kittens inside of her belly. But you don't say that for the pregnant woman that is petting the cat, right? You just say, oh no, there's just a zygote in there. It's just a clump of cells, right? That's another argument. First trimester that's another argument we we have people say is, oh it's just a clump of cells. It's not really a person yet. Well it's it you're a clump of cells. The earth is a clump of cells. We're all a clump of cells. Everything is a clump of cells. It's just more cells that can do more complex things than other cells. Right? Like the you know that's again a an illogical uh stance to to take when it comes to the uh the morality of the situation there's no there's no moral qualifier in the amount of cells you have right just because I'm taller than Caleb does not mean I'm worth more than I know I'm sorry. But just because I'm fatter than Caleb does not mean that I that I have more uh but you have more muscle though so maybe maybe we're pretty even might be might be pretty close. Tads ladies whoa whoa whoa oh he's single too men he's okay hold on he's single too though so I mean snatch him up hey I'm not looking right now I'm busy with pack I'm busy with work no I'm just kidding but um but yeah um it it kind of goes back to that idea of your location and your stage of life should determine your value. I think that's really the biggest oh yeah it you know there's no just older younger yeah more experience less experience really if you want to break our uh stance down to its barest kind of root is that we believe that all human beings are created equal and are by their creator with certain unalienable rights. Yep such as uh the right to life being the first and foremost one life liberty and the pursuit of happiness so you know when and that applies to all organisms that have human DNA. Yeah so I think do you have any more uh arguments that come up I I can't remember anymore off the top of my head but I'm sure there's I'm sure there's others um you know obviously you know you have the ones that are pretty extreme where it's like oh we don't care that it's a baby we just want to we just want to be able to kill it. And some people are that brash and we'll say that which is pretty nuts. And that's just where the Bible those are evil people. Yeah that's just where the Bible verse comes in of you know there's just some arguments that aren't worth having there's not some debate cast your per your pulse to swines uh it's yes there are evil people in this world and you know they're those people are very rare but I have encountered a few of them and it's it's pretty morally reprehensible makes me want to like attack them and sometimes um and sometimes you really wonder if that's truly what they believe or they're just saying it's like get under our skin.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

I thought that way about a couple people it's like okay you're just saying that because like you don't really have anything but some people do believe that. I know some people do and it's very sad. I I do think a lot of our you know a lot of the especially like the government officials on the left tend to really believe that like they just don't care.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

They just well and it's the s it's the same kind of people who would say that you know uh just because you're gay right you deserve uh you deserve these special treatments right it but when it comes to uh being a baby right you don't have you don't have even the right to life you know it it's it's such a weird hierarchy that they put these things on.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

It's a backwards world that we're living in. Yeah I remember when this argument all started and I was just like this is such a weird debate that we're even having like we're talking about if we should murder a child like it I mean it just seems so instead of a nine month old or like a nine month you know developed baby or a one month developed baby what about a one month old?

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Like what's the difference between that and usually it's well they look different and they're smaller.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

And that's that's really all there is is they they look different and they're smaller because like a ambulance or fire I don't know Caleb's people are calling and I don't know what that I thought's like a trumpet at first.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

Yeah we thought Jesus was coming back there we go sweet we would have just been recording an abortion debate podcast and he's like it's time actually we don't need to worry about this anymore. Yeah we'll see you guys up no more abortions but yeah I don't I lost my train of thought completely I was there and then it wasn't I'm sorry I can't remember what you were saying I I yeah the the trumpet sounded and dang it we're gonna watch this back and you're gonna be the trumpets of memory loss and confusion I guess um yeah well oh it was smaller than uh oh yeah yeah like you're uh like uh a one month old still doesn't have the ability to send for itself to go on forage for food you know it's it's just gonna sit there until it starts it's it's a literally uh it's literally helpless uh as helpless as uh a baby inside the womb I would argue I'd say you're pretty helpless up until like seven even like I mean you can there's I'm I'm sure I would say probably like four or five because like yeah I mean even then like like if you got put in like a sanctuary like a I don't know if someone got put because you hear about the stories of like people being raised by wolves and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Yeah like I'm thinking like my sister's 10 no shades my sister but like if she if she was just like dropped in some suburban area like I don't think she would she would make it. Really? Like I maybe if she just like ate peanut butter and jelly all day and something you don't think she'd be able to live?

SPEAKER_01 50:12

I don't know. You think she'd die? See I don't know. I don't know about that one. I a 10 year old I don't know I think a five year old would be a five year old definitely I mean they might like wander in the street and stuff but I'm not worried about that I'm talking like trying to like figure out how like money like the concept of like money and like buying food I mean you'd be surprised how quickly I mean I feel like people like human beings' greatest strengths is added is to quickly adapt to the city maybe I don't give my sister enough credit. Maybe we can do a test run sometime just like drop her off the middle of like hey we're gonna go get some ice cream you wanna come with and just leave her. If you find your way home you win poor Caleb's sister man no shade no shade just she calls him oh should I should I out your name?

SPEAKER_00 50:58

No we can't maybe add a he's got a very cute little nickname I do have a nickname. Actually it's not my sister's nickname for me though it was like my parents' nickname for me and then she kind of like interesting more you know so Caleb Lore that's not gonna be released.

SPEAKER_01 51:14

Those were redacted in the redacted in the Deschhinsky files yeah that's a good uh throwback the Deshinsky files which here's another kind of way to tie all this together put maybe a nice little bow on it everybody seems to be outraged about the Epstein files for very good reason right like that's uh I am too but uh you I'm sure there's plenty of pro-choice people that are outraged about you know the children being exploited on that island. Well it's like why are you why exactly and I'm not questioning you know I I'm outraged too but I'm I I want to hear your perspective on why and obviously it's like well children don't deserve to be sexually you know taken advantage of and perhaps very much more worse things than that on an island and then you then you ask why well it's because you know human life is sacred and we should be we should protect human life. Well so that stems from the whole where does morality come from right but then obviously the the question to ask there would be well what about what about babies in the womb?

SPEAKER_00 52:23

Unborn unborn unborn people yep so yeah I think that that's about that I got uh yeah it's a heavy topic but it's one that I really enjoy debating people on because like Cooper said it's one that people are more open uh to talking about than I think they even know so I used to be pro choice before I even knew what it really was like when I was a kid I learned about like Roe v.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

Wade and stuff in school and I was like oh a woman's right to have an abortion I was like oh a right to do something yeah that makes sense that makes sense yeah great I'm glad that that that that that that that happened uh and then I started to kind of become a a not just a freaking mongoloid uh humunculus just kid that was just oh shiny thing and I actually began to uh think about the world in a a more um I don't know complete sense in a more uh where where do I find my morality from then I began to kind of look at abortion from a more objective objective point of view and I had my mind changed.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

Which is a which is a very good point because I think there are a lot of people in our generation I think millennials especially that you you say the P word politics and they kind of just curgle to a ball in the corner and they're just like I just don't I don't want to talk about it you know I got just and and I was I was like that I was pretty averse to politics for a long time. I I was too and I I think what happens is when you're like that you tend to just lean towards the liberal side because you're like woman's right sounds nice yeah woman's right that sound that sounds great yeah why why don't we want women to have rights and then you dive into and you're like oh to kill people okay maybe maybe not so yeah not just people babies babies like the most innocent among us killing babies and that's another thing is like we're throughout all time protecting like people that can't protect themselves has been such like a a human thing.

SPEAKER_01 54:09

Like that's human nature to like stand up for the the one that can't well yeah I mean imagine seeing somebody attempt to kill a baby in a stroller like you'd be you'd you would try your absolute hardest to stop that person from doing that and it wouldn't there wouldn't even be a thought about it right there would it just it would literally something inside of you just takes over and drives you into that action.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

Yeah because if if you walk by someone trying to like strangle a baby and you do nothing like oh you're evil you're an evil person.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

That is straight evil. That is that is one of the most evil things yeah I it's unimaginable. Besides actually doing it is just watching somebody do it. I don't even I don't care if they're like if they're waving a gun around like I'm tackling that person. I don't care if I'm getting shot like if they're killing a baby it's like something that can defend itself like no there's literally I don't you know I don't know if if maybe maybe I'm just not a coward. I don't know like I yeah I'm not a not a wuss evil evil straight evil void activities dude really that cat is is evil yeah I think that wraps up everything that I've got for the the abortion argument I feel like it's it's pretty cut and dry for me at this point but yeah I mean if you if you're pro choice uh please consider the things that we said and to really internalize them think about them leave a comment leave a comment this if if we missed something if we like if we couldn't think of an argument for abortion or again yeah or against you I mean comment whatever you want I mean you can comment you know the ABCs if you want to but I don't mind that sounds good to us but um you know please uh we we enjoy engaging with you in the comments and uh please uh uh we can keep the civil discourse happening um online and uh hopefully we'll we'll be tabling tomorrow if I can have if I can find some time I'm really hoping um but it's gonna be really nice tomorrow like 80 degrees uh it's like 75 degrees right now there's like not a cloud in the sky.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

And the breeze is like perfect right now. Like you just get hit by a nice guest.

SPEAKER_01 56:12

It's like ah it's great. It's like just such a beautiful day out. It is um thank god for that but yeah I think I'll just end on um I believe abortion's probably the most evil thing going on in the world right now and I'm I'm definitely a strong advocate against it. I would consider myself an abolitionist uh not just pro-life but abolish abortion completely um given the fact that c sections are available and um if if I want to stay morally consistent I can't I can't kill a baby just because of uh rape or incest or some of these uh very very tragic ways that babies are brought into the world um so yeah I guess that's my closing statement yeah I I'd agree yeah sounds out pretty good so okay episode 11 in the books um episode 12 hopefully hopefully we'll be coming down the pipeline um airplane airplane it's cool it's pretty sweet yeah yeah me and Cooper semi-busy I've got work he's got work but we we get out here when we can and we make it work.

SPEAKER_00 57:20

Yeah keeping at it keeping at it all right here we go episode 11 peace