The Examined Faith

Is Jesus Really Present in the Eucharist? | Charlotte Choley-Kovacevic

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"I realised it's actually real — it's all real, and it all ties into the passion and the cross, and it's part of this far greater love story between God and mankind."

Charlotte joins Tuppy to explore the Eucharist and the Real Presence. Charlotte is Communications and Events Officer at Fidelium London, a lay-led network of Anglo-Catholic young adults in London, and she brings both theological depth and personal conviction to the question.

Together they explore:
- What the Bible actually says about the subject.
- What the female mystics of the Christian tradition understood about the Eucharist
- Why the sacramental life of the Church is increasingly appealing to young people in the UK
- Whether a quiet revival is underway — and what role the Eucharist might play in it

And much more

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SPEAKER_00

So Charlotte, has there been a moment in your own spiritual life or your ministry where the Eucharist has suddenly taken on a new meaning?

SPEAKER_01

I think it was the moment that I realized it's actual real. It's all real. And it all ties into the passion and the cross. And it's part of this far greater love story between God and mankind. That's when it, that's that's when everything changed for me, I think.

SPEAKER_00

That sounds like a big, big realization. And we can get into that um some more. The yeah, the the reality of it we'll look at when we're looking at the um biblical passages. Joining me today is uh Charlotte Shulley. Um Charlotte is the communications and events officer of Fidelium London. Fidelium is a lay-led network of Anglo-Catholic young adults based in London. And today, um, as you might have gathered, we're going to be discussing a great topic, the Eucharist, focusing on what the Bible has to say, sort of look zooming in on a couple of passages. And we're also going to explore the thoughts of a couple of female mystics and hopefully our own experiences a bit. I'm your host, Tuppy Morrissey, uh Charlotte. Welcome to the Examined Faith. It's a pleasure to have you today.

SPEAKER_01

Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00

My pleasure. So, Charlotte, as I said, you work with um Fidelium London. Just before we go to the Eucharist, could you say a bit about what that organization does and what your role is there?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so as you've said, we're a lay-led organisation, which means we are not run by the clergy. Um basically, our role is to link up all the Anglo-Catholic young adults in London. Often young people will, you know, show up to their parish church and be the only person under the age of 50. And so our hope is that by plugging them into a network which works out of parish churches, they could feel like they could keep going to their parish church and not have to all go to the same church. Where will the other young people go? And so the idea would be to supplement the the social and spiritual aspects that they might not be getting if you know they're one of three, maybe. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Excellent. Okay, great. Next time in I'm in London, I'll have to try going to an event. Sounds like, yeah, I will. Um, I think I yeah, I'm under the age of 35, so that's good. Um, so yeah, there's been a lot of conversation about a possible quiet revival amongst younger generations in the UK. Um, data has been contested more recently, but um there are perhaps signs of increased adult baptisms, Bible sales and confirmations, that kind of thing. Um so, in your experience, how might a renewed focus on the Eucharist speak into that possible revival?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so as you said, the Quiet Revival report has been withdrawn, but I do think it's directionally true. I think even though the stats might not be super accurate, is broadly right. Um, I think that one thing that I find really appeals to young people is the sacramental life of the church and the fact that there is a kind of objective experience outside of ourselves, and it's an experience that we can touch, eat, feel, smell, all these aspects of of worship. So I think we emphasize the Eucharist a lot more. We we I think we probably have more young people in church, to be honest. I think it's a very attractive aspect of the Christian faith.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I think there's perhaps a misconception sometimes that young people will just want the the guitars and um more evangelical elements of worship. Whereas in my experience, I mean I come from uh initially an evangelical background and then have moved to a more like high Anglican position more recently. But I think for some of my friends who've come to church with me, um, I don't think they really have related to the um some of the more evangelical elements. Not to say that others can't, but I think that is perhaps a misconception of sort of the young adult mind. Um so look we're gonna turn to the Bible in a moment, and you mentioned when we were preparing that you wanted to look at 1 Corinthians 11 and John 6 together. Um, why do you see those passages as particularly uh important to consider side by side?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think you know, John 6 without 1 Corinthians risks well, reading one without the other basically risks us ending up being very sentimental about the Eucharist. And they think if you read 1 Corinthians without John 6, you end up being really afraid of the Eucharist. And so I think this is how reading them together can help us get a more complete picture of what's going on.

SPEAKER_00

Good. Yeah, I yeah, I hadn't thought about that fear element. Um we'll we'll come to that. But let's start with John six. Um so we have the feeding of the five thousand and then Jesus' bread of life discourse. I'm gonna read quite a long section because I think it's important to to hear it and to um then dive into specific points. So Jesus says, I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live for ever, and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh. The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? So Jesus said to them, Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died, but the one who eats this bread will live for ever. So that's John six, forty eight to fifty-eight. So a lot of striking imagery there, um, and Jesus says in particular his flesh, flesh is true food, and his blood true drink. So, from an Anglo-Catholic perspective, um, how does this passage ground your understanding of the Eucharist as more than just a memorial of Jesus' death?

SPEAKER_01

Well, the the way that Anglo-Catholics describe sacraments are an outward sign of an inward grace. And this is partly where we get it from. Um, Jesus is saying that the Eucharist has an actual effect, like it metaphysically does something to us, it actually nourishes us and it actually refreshes us. Um and also another thing is um if sin is separation from God and Jesus says that drinking his flesh, you know, drinking his blood and eating his flesh will actually refresh you, will actually nourish you, and through that you will abide in him. Then the sense in which the Eucharist in some mystical way kind of forgives our sins because it brings us into full union with Christ. Well, he sustains us, he also brings us into himself.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, okay. Yeah, you and you mentioned um sustaining a few times there. Um and I wanted to look at I think there's been a good recovery recently, um, quite a few books about sort of the the Jewish origins of the Eucharist and comparing it to certain Old Testament passages and traditions, and particularly here it's explicit that Jesus uh mentions the manna in the wilderness. Um how does that comparison to the manna deepen our sense of the Eucharist as something regular and sustaining rather than something that is perhaps more short-lived?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's our spirit it's our spiritual food for this for this world. I think the the the comparison with the manor is essentially telling us that uh it's the food that that will sustain us in this lie. Um so it should probably should be received regularly. It's good, it's it's good for you, is basically what he's saying.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um it reminds me of the hymn, uh, Guide me, O thou great redeemer. Guide me or thou great redeemer, pilgrim through this barren land, I'm weak, but thou art mighty. Feed me, O bread of heaven, till I want no more. It's quite it's quite a striking image when you think about it. It's like the the complete dependence on the spiritual food for this very complicated life is I think very impactful.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. I I love that that hymn is one of my favourites we sang over to um at school, uh growing up and always doing the uh want no more sort of bass part, yeah, when we were 12 years old. Um and um yeah, so you said there's a lot of like um it's it's pretty striking, and it's notable, it's not in the section that I read, but afterwards um some of the disciples come up to Jesus and say, This is a hard saying. Um, and the crowd is clearly shocked by what um Jesus has to say. Um what do you think we can gain from that in terms of um how we understand the Eucharist? Because I think it points at something, something big. They wouldn't be shocked if it were um an easy saying.

SPEAKER_01

Well, early Christians were accused of being cannibals by Romans, which I think is quite revealing of how the church has always seen the Eucharist uh as a real eating of flesh and drinking blur in a very gory way, which I think is great. Um, but I think Jesus first, I mean he first you know doubles down on um on this imagery, which would be odd if it were just a metaphor. So he doubles down and then he lets them leave. I think if if if it had just been a metaphor, kind of a turn of phrase, he'd have been like, okay, let me clarify, let me just separate strips. But he does it wrong, he lets them leave. So I think um I don't know, I just I think it's uh just a slam dunk, really. I think it's quite clear what he means.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there's the real presence, yeah. And um I also I heard someone say, you know, if he were if he wanted to speak in in metaphor, he could have chosen a slightly more palatable, if you'll pardon the pun perhaps, but uh more palatable um metaphor. There's no there's no obvious reason that he has to talk about his body and blood and eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Particularly, I think if we consider that in the Old Testament, there's the prohibition against um drinking the blood from uh animals, and that continues in the Acts of the Apostles with the the Jerusalem Council. Um so you know, he knows that this is going to provoke the crowd um quite strongly. Um Do you think it's surprising that he says, um, are you going to turn away as well? Sort of challenging the disciples in that way, or is that sort of classic Jesus behaviour?

SPEAKER_01

I think it's just kind of classic Jesus. It's just it's just what he does. He does get a bit sassy sometimes in the gospels, I think. So this is what he's doing here. Um I understand, I understand where he's coming from. I think you know he gives us such such a great gift, and everyone's like, yeah. Dunno, not so keen on this. Again, like he would get a bit upset about it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And I think it's um it shows this passage shows that there is a radical demand being made here, and um many Christians, you you said, you know, clearly that throughout most of uh church history, Christians saw um the Eucharist as the real flesh and blood of of Christ. There's whether you take it in the sense of transubstantiation, excuse me, so the um bread and wine becoming the body and blood without any traces of the bread and wine remaining, or consubstantiation. Um so there are some sort of the the reality of the bread and wine are still there in some way. Um but you know, there's that real presence, that is the church's traditional teaching. Um whereas post-sort of Protestant Reformation in particular, there are um far more Christians um who want to see it as a commemoration, a memorial, um, something metaphorical, something perhaps just sort of slightly spiritually edifying, but it's not got that sustaining nourishment element to it. Um so do you think Do you see that as a real problem um in the church today that there are so many Christians not prepared to accept the radical demand of of the Eucharist? Um do you think they're even aware of church tradition?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean I I very sincerely wonder how people get to memorial view of the Eucharist. I think it's very plainly written in the Bible, especially when we get to um um 1 Corinthians as well, I think. The idea is developed. Um I think I think the thing about the real presence is that believing it and really integrating it um in your heart, like it it does actually change the world, I think. It's so radical, it it puts everything into a completely new level and it puts us all into a new relationship with God and also horizontally with each other. Um but I just think it's so it's just so important and it makes you know, you you you you can admire a teacher, you can follow prophets. Um I think this puts us in complete dependence on God on us receiving his grace, and therefore the center of the Christian life becomes the presence of God. And so I think that that is just so important. I think it I mean, I think it always has been. I think memoralism, even after the Reformation, is a very new idea anyway. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you sort of wonder like why someone um would be I I'd be interested to I perhaps should have a guest to it. Maybe you should memorialist on after this. Um but you know, it seems so it is so exciting to think that if I eat this bread and drink this wine, Jesus is really present here. You know, to be hesitant about that, um reluctant to accept it seems odd. You know, if if Jesus is your Lord and Saviour, you'd think you'd want anything that allows you to experience his presence.

SPEAKER_01

Um it's extremely incarnational as well, I think. Um many in Christian denominations or traditions that just don't think about the incarnation so much or kind of worship God as a a kind of spiritual being, which he is, but he is also, you know, the God who made himself a tiny baby and he died on the cross for us and he lived among us because he wanted to be with us. And I think they often lose that that aspect of it, which is why the Eucharist then goes quite quickly.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, to a sort of monthly celebration, um, if that yeah. And we'll come to that sort of infrequent reception um idea in a moment. So I think it'll be a good point to shift to First Corinthians um chapter eleven. I think I'll I'll read um I quite like reading, um so I'll read uh another section. Um so this is verses twenty-three to thirty-two, so a bit shorter, thankfully. Um so Paul here writes, For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night when he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and said, This is my body which is for you, do this in remembrance of me. In the same way also he took the cup after saying after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Whoever therefore eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord we are disciplined, so that we may be not may not be condemned along with the world. Um Yes, and this passage will be familiar to many listeners from liturgical context. Um so, Paul, I think, as you said, there's a possibility of being afraid of the Eucharist after you've read this. Um, you know, it could lead to your your death. Um so he warns against eating and drinking unworthily. Before we think about this in a general sense um for us Christians today, what's the context of division in Corinth that's behind Paul's warning here?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, basically there were all sorts of class divisions, and the richer people were having well, it's well, it basically seems that the Eucharist had been integrated into a communal meal. And so that within that there were all sorts of dynamics. Some people would have more nicer food, others would kind of get the leftovers, only be invited in for the second half. And it it it seems like um, you know, those it it that the Eucharist had started to reflect existing social divisions instead of overcoming them. And so that's why Paul is writing this angry letter to them.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it is quite a fiery letter in general. Um yeah, so I think nevertheless, there is a clear warning to all um disciples of Christ uh in this letter. You know, Paul writes, Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Um, so how do you think we should help people today can sir um approach self-examination before they receive the Eucharist without tipping into an excessive fear? Perhaps you have some experience of this, you know, people asking you about this uh fidelity.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah. I mean, I I used to be like terribly afraid of receiving comedians. Like it's definitely something I've struggled with. Um I think you know, poll poll warning only makes sense if something real is being received. Um but at the same time, you know, the Eucharist is given for sinners, it's not for perfect people. Um, you know, being unworthy doesn't mean being or yeah, being unworthy doesn't mean being imperfect. I think being unworthy means being inattentive to one's sins and sinfulness and um you know self-examination should be unearthed, but also not paralyzing, and it's a it's a difficult balance to reach. Like, you know, yeah, I've had I've had these episodes of of horrible religious scrubulosity and worry about this. Um but it's yeah but it's about sincerely turning turning to God, very sincerely, being prepared to give anything that that that doesn't positively contribute to this relationship up, um, not just you know completely disqualifying oneself from God and his presence. I think that's maybe slightly more helpful way to think about self-examination.

SPEAKER_00

Well, thank you for for sharing that. And I I remember when I was first exploring Christianity as a young adult, I was um in my final year at university actually, and was um I started going to uh worship, Sunday worship at Christchurch Cathedral in Oxford, where I was studying. Um and I took a long time to take uh the Eucharist. You know, I'd I'd um taken the Eucharist at at school, um, but I hadn't really reflected on why I was doing that. It was just what we did. Um whereas when I was examining the Bible, you know, do I want to believe this? I then went several Sundays without um taking the bread and wine. And I remember it was a big moment for me when I then um committed to to taking it. I felt I was I was ready um to do so. But I I found that a helpful self-examination. Um but I I've definitely, like you, I think, had periods afterwards um being too um self-critical, um, you know, and perhaps I enjoyed, you know, reading about Martin Luther and his um his scrupulosity um you know when he was just confessing every last thing he'd he'd done um when he was uh a Catholic. Monk. So, you know, some of the great theologians have been there as well, which is encouraging, reassuring. So we've talked about the divisions in Corinth, but Paul then gets on to the theme of unity, which I think is really important. You mentioned that the Eucharist is something horizontal as well. Could you speak a little bit more about that? Why is it important that Paul says, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread?

SPEAKER_01

If you go to Church of England parish that does kind of bogstand in Church of England liturgy, you will probably recite that phrase every Sunday at the Eucharist. Um I think it's very important. Uh there are two types of unity in the Eucharist in a way that can't really be separated because there's the body of Christ as in God's body in that embodied way. And there's also the body of Christ as in our fellow Christian, our fellow baptized Christians, and so you can't really claim complete communion with God through his body, through the Eucharist, without at the very least, trying your best to seek communion horizontally with the other people who make up his body with you. Um but the Eucharist, because it actually does something metaphysically, it brings us in to full communion with God, um, it doesn't just express unity, like it also creates it metaphysically, but it also therefore demands it. So we also have to do work to get that unity. It's all kind of tied into itself quite confusingly, but it all works together at the same time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Have you found that um working with Fidelia has encouraged that unity amongst young Anglo-Catholics in London?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think so. I think even just proceeding, you know, Bible study or a pub social as we did yesterday with mass, um it does it, it sets up with a different disposition on these things, um more outward looking to other people and and trying to see Christ in in the other in a way that we're just not strong enough to do ourselves. I think that's the great joy of the Eucharist. It kind of does it for us in a good way.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, nice, yeah. Um, so yeah, you mentioned or you sort of alluded to um doing it on our on our own, and um one approach to the to communion could be an overly individualistic one. We could also um perhaps receive it infrequently, as you mentioned earlier, and have a quite a casual attitude towards it. Um so those are some of the dangers I think I could see in our um approach to communion. How does this passage from Paul's letter to the Corinthians challenge those there are there are a few things um about infoquency, firstly.

SPEAKER_01

If it is true nourishment you ought to you ought to eat and drink as regularly as you can, or you will die. It's what Jesus says in in John. Um so that's the first thing. I think if something is objectively holy, which I think it is, just due to the fact that it is Jesus' body as he tells us, then posture and preparation and attention matter. I think also that will take on different shapes at different times in people's lives. It's not you know kind of switch you can flick. Um but yeah, we all we all we ought to have reverence for it. And um, I don't really see in scripture anywhere where Jesus or Paul or or any other number of people who've contributed to this great book tell us that communion is a private moment. I I I just it's just not really there. It's private in the sense that you know it's incarnational, so there is a kind of site of encounter within your body and God's body. So there is obviously an individual aspect to it there, but um it's a communal thing, and then this is why I think the Anglican practice of kneeling at an altar rail to receive communion is so important. Um the act that we're all doing this together. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've I miss out on that where I'm worshiping at the moment, but I have um experienced that and it is yeah, I think that it's a wonderful, wonderful practice. Um yeah, with I was thinking with the infrequent reception that as I said, I was going to evangelical churches um for a while, and yeah, we would take communion think what usually once a month, and then you know, okay, maybe that Sunday you're away from um your church, so you you miss it. It's two months, yeah. Um and I I think it's it's just such a different attitude. I didn't even really question it. I think I um felt a benefit when I did uh take communion on those Sundays. You know, I did feel there was something spiritual going on, but I wasn't really reflecting on what it meant, um, whether it was a real presence or a memorial. Um it was kind of this secondary thing to, you know, a big emphasis on on the word um in particular, which is great, but um I think now I realize that I was missing out on something. I think we've covered First Corinthians 11 nicely there. Um so you wanted to read those two passages, John 6 and 1 Corinthians 11 to get 11 together. Um so we touched on this earlier, but what insights emerge when we hold them together?

SPEAKER_01

They're doing two different but complementary things. Um in John 6, the Christ's participation in in Christ's life, it's true food that gives eternal life, and you know, we've we we we've covered that, and then 1 Corinthians especially yeah, 11 um tells us what their participation actually means, and so it's grounded in the cross, it's proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes. And so then we hold them together and we see that the life that we receive isn't abstract, it's the life that flows from Christ's self-giving, it's where the cross like the Eucharist is where the cross becomes present in our lives. Um, and we're you know, we're we're receiving the life that flows from that sacrifice. And so I think yeah, they they they do really work together. It's interesting that John and and One Corinthians seem to have been written at very, very different times. I think that's kind of what the scholarship tells us, but I think they just work so well together. I think it yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's something we haven't haven't mentioned that uh One Corinthians would think is the first um of the biblical passages about the the Eucharist, the first one to be written, whereas John would have been um later according to yeah, conventional scholarship of the older gospel.

SPEAKER_01

But also the thing that's interesting about one Corinthians is the first thing he that Paul says is this that I have received and I pass on to you. So the the kind of one of the earliest texts of the New Testament that we have, it seems like that was already a tradition that had been passed down and that was already seen quite seriously.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, yeah, yeah. This is not something that Paul has called it up and out of nowhere, yeah, definitely not. Um yeah, and John 6 helps us to s to recognise that. Fantastic. Um I think that was a good exploration of those those passages, I hope. And you want you wanted to talk next about um Julian of Norwich. Um so I think I must admit, you know, not someone I've studied really, um, but I know that she has a very striking take on the Eucharist, um, framing Christ in very maternal terms. So she writes that our precious mother Jesus can feed us with himself most courteously and most tenderly with the blessed sacrament, which is the precious food of life. So, what draws you to this image and to the work of Julian of Norwich in particular.

SPEAKER_01

I love it. I love Julian, I think she's great. I think we should all be more like Julian, we should all have you know crazy visions of Arnold. I think. But um I think well, I think Julian is is well, her firstly her book is Revelations of Divine Love is very old. It's the oldest text that we have written in English by a woman, so that's great. Um but she has this very maternal view of Jesus. I mean, it's kind of based in scripture. Jesus does use maternal imagery to refer to himself, you know, a mother hen gathering as baby, as baby chicks. But I think she picks up something about the Eucharist, which um we don't really think about very much. And that's actually a very maternal act. Like the the fact of feeding your children with your body is the work of pregnancy. It's the work of breastfeeding, this kind of sustainment. And I think when you look at a tiny baby who can't sustain itself, can't feed itself, and needs needs its mother to to feed it, that's kind of how we are with God. Like we are just tiny babies who keep feeding and sustaining. I think it's a very, very underdiscussed imagery, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I have a and my wife and I, we have an 11-month-old baby. So I'm uh that's it's very interesting to reflect upon because I have now 11 months um worth of experience, you know, seeing how she is dependent. Sylvia is dependent upon my upon my wife. Um so next time I'm taking communion, I'll have to think in negative. I think I think I think it is helpful.

SPEAKER_01

Um and yeah, it's well it also tells me something about sorry, it also tells me something about the life of of of Christ, like the the the broken, the broken body given for his children. I mean child I mean childbirth is can be horrible and traumatizing in and I think you know he really I think he kind of gets it. Like he really gets into the the bloodiness of of feeding your children with with your body. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah, the the the childbirth imagery is also um, yeah. So it's the feeding, yeah, feeding and the um actual act of delivery. Um so yeah, I mean how does that um challenge our usual ways of speaking about the Eucharist? Um how does it enrich them? Because this is, I think, it is a very different way of of conceiving it. Um do you think do you think it's something that everyone would relate to? Or do you think um as a woman, you know, it's more uh something that you connect with?

SPEAKER_01

No one can relate to, I mean everyone, every single person's come out of their mother at some point. So um I I think actually I think it would be kind of sad to say that this is this is the special this is the special girly thing that the the woman can think about and the boys can think about big many things. Um obviously, you know, with every kind of Christian imagery, some people will resonate with it more than others, but I think it's just very underrated. And it also reminds me of the imagery of the pelican. My parish's big priests' hosts that the priests consecrate have a pelican on them. Um, and it's it's a Christian image of the mother pelican pursing her breast with all her babies like feeding, drinking up her blood. It's really it's really gory. I really encourage people to look into it. It's great. Um but yeah, our big priest hosts have a pelican pursing her breast to feed her children. Um so it's quite it's quite an ancient um interpretation of the Eucharist as well. Anyway, Julian didn't come up with it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I've never heard of the the pelican imagery. Um that's that's fantastic. I'll have to check that out. And so if someone wanted to explore Julian of Norwich's writings on on the Eucharist, um where would be the best place to start?

SPEAKER_01

Uh The Revelations of Divine Love. It's quite short. You can read it kind of relatively quickly. There's a short there's a long text and a short text. Um, I think they just have different manuscripts. Chapter 16, uh 60, sorry, of the of the long text is one of my favorites. It starts by saying how we are. Well, she kind of gives a summary of every vision that she had. I love her. She has all these men of visions, but we start it starts with how we are redeemed and outspread by the mercy and grace of our sweet, kind, and ever-loving mother Jesus, and of the prophecies of motherhood. But Jesus is our true mother, feeding us not with milk, but with himself opening his side for us and claiming all our love. So if you want to two pages, chapter six to it's it's it's really, really good.

SPEAKER_00

Good. Um, yeah, it sounds sounds beautifully written. I have not I've not read any Julian of Norwich, I must admit. Um, so I'll have to amend that. Um, and another female mystic you wanted to look at was Teresa of Avala. Um, so she again had very uh vivid mystical experiences uh from what she writes, and particularly those tied to communion, um, often describing Jesus as present and desiring union with us. Um, what aspects of her teaching on the Eucharist resonate with you? Um perhaps thinking as well about the scriptural passages we've discussed today.

SPEAKER_01

What stands out with her is her insistence on the reality of Christ's presence and his desire for union with us. I think um obviously she doesn't think communion is symbolic, but it is a personal encounter with God. I know I just went on the whole thing about how commun isn't actually personal, it's communal, but it also is personal. It's both it is a personal, a personal um encounter. Um I think when you read it in light of these passages, especially um what comes through in her writing is that the life that we receive and the sacrifice that we proclaim every time we celebrate the Eucharist um are made present in a way that really invites a real relationship with us. I think it it does kind of come through in in John, uh, you know, where he says, um, those who eat my flesh and drink my blood um will live in me and I will live in them. So there is a real sense of relationship there. But I think Teresa really does expand it. I can't quote any of her writings off the top of my head, but I do encourage people to to look into her. She's great.

SPEAKER_00

Where where to ask the same question, where should people start with her?

SPEAKER_01

I think what's her I can't find her book on my shelf. Um let me hang on. Well, I think yeah, the interior sorry, the interior castle is the word I was looking for. Oh yeah. So that's a that's a big thing. Um there's also she also wrote um an autobiography. So you can I think the interior castle is the one that really gets into all of this.

SPEAKER_00

It's a great title. Yeah, okay. So thank you to dip into. Um yeah, it sounds like sort of sci-fi novel. Um and so how might um Theresa's Carmelite Spirituality help modern believers approach the sacrament with greater reverence and and joy as well. We've spoken quite a bit about that need for for reverence. What would she have to say about that? Do you know?

SPEAKER_01

She really places the emphasis on what happens after we receive. So remaining with Christ, giving thanks, recognizing that he wants to be with us. Um there's a great, there's a great passage, um, I think from John, a verse where Jesus says, Behold, I am with you even until the end of the age. I think it's it's a really great way of understanding the Eucharist as well, is in a way he gives us his real presence just because he wants to be with us. He just likes it, he likes us, like he loves us so much, just he just wants to be with us. And so Teresa expands on that a bit. But I think it's something that we really often neglect because it's you know, comedian has all these logistics, like to figure out are you gonna stand, are you gonna go up to the rail? What's the kind of what's the actual situation here? And um she really encourages us to think about it as a presence that we dwell in, like it's a very slow, attentive approach. Um that's also marked by a lot of joy because Christ's presence is a gift that's completely freely given, that we've done nothing to earn. He just gives it because he likes us. So it's a really joyful thing.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, definitely. And yeah, I think having that that correct posture um is important, you know, in the in the approach. And and afterwards, as you said, you know, we need to take time to to pray and to to reflect on on the sacrament rather than just sort of getting on with the rest of of the service. Um I think that's a really important element of taking um communion. Um and are there any other um scriptural passages you think we need to to discuss and that people need to be looking at um to add to our picture of the Eucharist?

SPEAKER_01

Not off the top of my head. I mean the epistles are full of instructions on how to practice this and receive it. Um I think yeah, I would I would encourage people to really read um John 6 and 1 Corinthians 11 and really like really try to digest it because there's a lot, especially 1 Corinthians, he kind of pull um and goes on and he ties it in the book of other things, which is really interesting. Um genuinely my advice is just try to read them together and really meditate on it because they seem very different at first, they have completely different tones, completely different vibes, but then when you actually meditate on them, you'll see there's a lot in common.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, which is perhaps true of so much of the Bible that there can seem some texts can seem quite uh disparate, but actually there there's a strong common thread, um, as we would hope there would be. Um and drawing drawing some of these ideas together, let's sort of turn to a more pastoral um focus, I think. Um perhaps picking up on uh young adults as well and your work there. Um, what would you say to someone listening who feels distant from the Eucharist or perhaps receives it infrequently? Have you ever had that kind of uh encounter so far?

SPEAKER_01

I would say, you know, begin just like humming. You don't you don't have to feel anything or understand everything that's happening. I don't think any of us ever will. And it's not, and the Ugress isn't something that you earn your way into, it's something that you receive and that you proclaim and that you share. Like there are all these, you know, dynamics to it. Um, so even a small step towards it in any in any direction closer, whatever angle you want to come at it from is still a step towards um a response to the to the graces that that that we share through it, I think.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Just don't worry, don't worry. Go for it. Yeah, yeah, don't worry, go for it. Don't don't worry too much.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, hopefully you won't die or go.

SPEAKER_01

Well, the the thing about dying is it's you know, it's obviously not um like do this wrong and tomorrow you will wake up with bronchitis. Like it's yeah, yeah, yeah. It's I think it's about you know spiritual death and illness. So in these situations, it's always the less you know, actually the better off you are, just take it as of that time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, be simple, be childlike, yeah. Yeah, uh yeah, and you mentioned um you m what you don't have to feel something. I think that's important because there's a danger perhaps of seeing it, it's gonna be this silver bullet, or it's like a a talisman. I just um I heard about a church where People were basically doing like drive-through communion. Um, you know, so there's driving up, taking communion, then just uh going back home. Um you you have to experience it as part of the whole service, um, for sure. And you're not necessarily gonna be um you probably won't be sort of suddenly filled with the the spirit and um you know tingling or anything like that, but it's that it's that regular sustenance that I do think changes people. Um but yeah, we shouldn't it's not it's not what am I trying to say? It's not like ayahuasca or something, it's not um gonna give this like sort of profound uh vision necessarily. It could. Um I think Yeah, it could. So you have to be open to to that as well. Um but there's I think in the modern age there's such a desire, you know, just that one thing that's gonna uh flick the switch, and um that'll be that'll be me sorted. Uh the reality is more um more complex usually. Um have you seen with your work uh for Fidelia um people personally being being transformed by by receiving uh the Eucharist or you know community being transformed?

SPEAKER_01

I think when the Eucharist becomes central, everything else starts toward itself around it, whether that be with our personal lives um and how we approach church and corporate worship, but also in community. So I think people become a lot more rooted, they become less anxious about seeking out new experiences, and they I think they just become more open to each other and to a shared life of prayer. I think it creates depth and stability over time. I also think something that really draws young people to the Eucharist um is the fact that that doesn't really require a big emotional response. Obviously, the grace and God prompts us to have a response to Him generally, but the difference with Eucharistic worship now, obviously, someone's gonna like bring up some example of some charismatic church that has, you know, like a great view of communion. But I think generally speaking, um eucharistic worship doesn't have that emotional intensity, like it doesn't require you to have all these great big feelings about it, it just is, it just is, and at different times it will move you more or less, but it still is, it's still constant. God is still the same, week in, week out, week out as we do this. You you can come as you are and really not need to feel like you need to whip up these big emotional reactions, which is what I see from quite a few young people who came from especially evangelical, charismatic backgrounds.

SPEAKER_00

Good, yeah. Yeah, that's encouraging, and yeah, it's less about oneself, it's about Christ being being present. It's not it's not really well, it is about us and it isn't, you know, but we're not we're not the most important. Yeah. Um that that's that's fantastic. Um and if you could you know leave um the audience listening today with uh an invitation or some kind of challenge perhaps regarding the Eucharist, what would that be?

SPEAKER_01

I would say try to attend a Eucharistic service regularly, even outside of Sunday if you can, if the church does that. And you know, if your Sundays are busy because they're all built into routine, see if you can get to like a Wednesday communion or something and see if you can um try and just keep a few minutes of silence after receiving. Um and try to make that a spiritual practice. I know it's easier said than done, but I think like it has it has changed my life and it has changed the life of countless other people. I know I can I can guarantee you it will it will almost certainly change worlds too. Um find a kind of spiritual friend, whether it be you know Jean of Norwich, um Therese of Lisieux. I mean, there are so many great writers who've written on the Eucharist. If you can find spiritual friend in the book, you can walk, yeah, you can walk this with you, you'll see that this is something that Christians have through all time and space thought about and have had, um, have been very moved by. And hopefully it can move you too.

SPEAKER_00

Good. Very that's a very good encouragement, I think. One thing that just came to my mind, um, not sure if you've thought about this, is children um receiving the Eucharist. Because I know in the Eastern Orthodox Church it is traditional for children to receive communion. Um what do you think about that? Because in the the Anglican communion and in uh Roman Catholicism, it is not uh the common practice.

SPEAKER_01

I think children should uh this is my hot take is following you know baptism at two weeks old or something, like baptize them immediately and as soon as possible communicate children, I think. I think all Christian all baptized Christians should be invited to receive communion after adequate preparation, but you know, how much preparation is adequate for a a tiny AV? I don't know. But I think our Lord was very clear that uh the tiny, the tiny children of the world are welcome in this kingdom. And I think if they are fully fledged baptized Christians, which they are, if and if we believe that baptism is initiation into the Christian complete initiation into the Christian life, then um I personally would communicate children. I think confirmation is is the the time to kind of delay and and and make you know like an active an active choice for young people.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I wouldn't have confirmed as a I was confirmed as an adult, but I think lots of people who are brought up kind of Christian will be confirmed when they're like 13, 14, they don't do it because you have to. I'm I would say like delay that, but have communion as as soon as possible. That's my hot take, at least.

SPEAKER_00

I think I I agree, yeah, I agree. I I think children should take communion. Um and yeah, I I was confirmed as a as an adult as well. That I mean that was more because I became a Christian as an adult. I mean, I was baptized um as a baby, but took on that conscious decision as a young adult. Um but I because I think the danger, one danger I see with not um giving the uh Eucharist to children is it implies that you have to be of a certain like spiritual uh understanding. Um you have to get the Eucharist, which firstly isn't necessarily possible, you know, uh which of us properly get. So you know that we'd have a test uh and we wouldn't pass the test. And secondly, it seems to exclude um those who are you know mentally um impaired in some way that because they they will they won't understand the the Eucharist if you have a severe um disability, and you probably never will. And that seems hugely problematic to me that someone would be excluded um from the Eucharist for something out of their control like that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think children who are who are brought up, you know, in practicing Christian households will just kind of get it. I think I think children firstly understand a lot more than we than we think. I've seen very, very tiny children, very small, who get like one who could barely walk, he was like three apples tall, like the absolute world's tiniest child, run up to the communion rail and very ecstatically stick his hands out to receive. And then like, does that child not know God? Like, can this child not receive his Lord? I don't see the problem here. Sounds about right to me. And I think you know, children who are brought up by Christian parents will grow to understand it with time, as we all do, and they all grow up and get it. And I think preparing children to understand that communion is important is very important. But I also think that's just something that p children pick up because children are very clever and they see the people around them. So I don't really see that being an impediment to communicating children at all.

SPEAKER_00

No and so our our baby Sylvia has not received communion. Do you know? I don't actually know if I wanted her to. Could I just say, yeah, don't don't just bless her, please give her a lot of it.

SPEAKER_01

That's a really good question. I think you'd have to ask your produce. I think also I think I think as children get to that kind of you know, year and a bit of when they're tiny babies, it's fine, you can just put it in their mouth. I think the the worry is that they would spit it out or something.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, she probably would. Yeah, she'd probably start choking on the the wine if she yeah, I'd probably skip it.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, maybe do it in one kind or something. I don't know, you probably have to ask the piece. Maybe not the best person to ask, but I think in principle it's a really good idea.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I'm gonna I'm gonna look into that. That's my invitation for this week regarding the Eucharist. Um great. Well, Charlotte, I've really enjoyed our our discussion today. It's been been wide-ranging um and I think helpful. I hope listeners have found it uh encouraging. And I think the main takeaway for me is that if you look sincerely at the word of God, it is very difficult to argue against the fact that there's a real presence here in the in the Eucharist. There's the real presence of of Jesus Christ, his his body and blood are there, you are receiving, um, receiving your Lord, as you said. Um, and I think it would be fantastic to have um someone with a different perspective in a in a future episode. I'll have to to look into doing that. And I'd be really interested to hear hear what they say. Um, but I think from my perspective, it was often a lack of reflection rather than a conscious decision to be a memorialist, um, to see it just as a commemoration. But I'm sure there are people, there obviously are people who've made that decision on a more intellectual basis rather than just going with the flow. But thank you. Yeah, thank you so much, Charlotte, for coming on. I hope you enjoyed our discussion.

SPEAKER_01

Of course, thank you very much for having me. It was great.

SPEAKER_00

Good, I'm glad. This podcast is part of the FaithWave app. Um, if you've enjoyed listening, you can support the project by downloading the app where you can sign up for a free trial. FaithWave brings together historic prayers, guided abridgments of classic Christian texts, courses, podcasts, and much more. Visit Faithwave.app or search FaithWave on the app store. Thank you again, Charlotte, and thank you to all um my listeners on the examined faith, and God bless you all. Right.