Why Studying Islam Makes You a Better Christian | Dr. Fitzroy Morrissey

Can studying Islam deepen your Christian faith? In this episode of The Examined Faith, Tuppy is joined by his brother Dr. Fitzroy Morrissey, Associate Professor of Islamic Studies and Law at the University of Oxford and Fellow of Pembroke College, for a wide-ranging conversation on two of the world's great Abrahamic faiths.

Fitz brings a rare perspective: a committed Christian who has spent his career immersed in Islamic thought, including the rich Sufi intellectual tradition. Together they explore where Christianity and Islam genuinely converge, from the Quran's striking affirmations about Jesus (his virgin birth, miracles, and status as "Word of God") to the Sufi concept of the "Muhammadan Light" and its remarkable echoes of the Johannine Logos.

They also examine where the two traditions fundamentally diverge, on original sin, redemption, and the role of law in the moral life, and how Muslims have historically understood the relationship between the Quran and the Bible, including the concept of tahrif (the corruption of scripture).
As the Anglican bishop and scholar Kenneth Cragg once wrote, not to care about Islam would be not to care about Christ. It's a conviction Fitz shares, and one that shapes everything he discusses here.

What we cover:

Why Christians should study Islam
What the Quran says about Jesus — virgin birth, miracles, and "Word of God"
Sufism explained: the "Muhammadan Light" and the Johannine Logos
Original sin, redemption, and law: where Christianity and Islam diverge
Tahrif: how Muslims understand the corruption of scripture
Whether interfaith scholarship can enable real dialogue

Section
Intro & guest introduction 0:00
Fitz's background / how he got into Islamic studies 1:02
Why Christians should explore Islam 4:40
Similarities between Christianity & Islam 10:05
What is Sufism? 13:53
How Christians should approach the Quran 21:29
Original sin & key theological differences 28:11
The Quran's relationship to the Bible 37:40
Muslim views on Paul & the gospels 40:58
Hope for interfaith dialogue 43:57
Wrap-up & book recommendations 46:08


Books & scholars recommended:

A Short History of Islamic Thought — Fitzroy Morrissey
The Renewal of Islam — Fitzroy Morrissey
Kenneth Cragg, Marshall Hodgson, Gabriel Said Reynolds

For more about Fitzroy and his work: https://www.pmb.ox.ac.uk/person/professor-fitzroy-morrissey 
Grow deeper in faith with the FaithWave app: https://www.faithwave.app/



#christianityandislam  #interfaithdialogue  #sufism  #jesusinthequran #christianfaith

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to episode five of The Examine Faith. I'm your host, Tuppy Morrissey. And with me today is Dr. Fitzroy Morrissey. As you may have guessed from our common surname and our similar good looks, Fitz is my elder brother. So I'm going to have to call you Fitz rather than Fitzroy. That feels a bit unnatural. So Fitz is Associate Professor of Islamic Studies and Law at the University of Oxford and a fellow of Pembroke College. He recently published the excellent The Renewal of Islam. And today we're going to be tackling the rather large topic of Christianity and Islam, thinking a bit about how the two religions differ and where there might be some similarities. So, Fitz, thank you very much for coming on today. Thanks very much, Tuppy. It's a pleasure to be on and uh nice to talk to you. Good. Um that's relief. So, Fitz, to start, let's just talk a bit about your own um perspective. So you are a Christian yourself, but you spent years working on uh Islamic studies. How did you first get into Islam in a serious way? Yeah, um yeah, that that's drive. Um, how long have I been studying Islam for? Um I suppose um I studied Arabic as an undergraduate um also here in Oxford, at Pembroke College. Um and I suppose I became interested in Islam in my last years at school, um, probably for a number of reasons. Um first, I I had the good fortune to be able to study a bit of Arabic um while I was still at school, um a great uh teacher, uh Harun Shawarni. Um and I was interested at school in the study of religion and and theology. That was one of my A levels. I was also doing history, and uh in history we did the Crusades, and um I I became very interested in um sort of the medieval Islamic world and looking at the crusades through um through the lens of uh Arabic writing on the crusades, um Arabic chronicles. Um remember reading a great book by a Lebanese scholar called Amin Ma'alouf, The Crusades to Arabis, and um that sort of um got me thinking it would be interesting to study uh Islamic history and and Arabic more seriously. Um and yeah, I was I I was interested in religion and comparative religion. Um and you know, our our dad uh helped, I think, uh inculcate that interest, and he had a very sort of wide uh range of books in his library, particularly on kind of the mystical dimensions of various religions. So I read quite a bit about uh Sufism, um the mystical form of Islam, which which ended up being the area that, or one of the areas that I really have concentrated on in my um in my studies and in my academic work. Um so then yeah, when I came to Oxford, um the Arabic course at Oxford was and still is a very kind of wide-ranging course, um, which is one of the things that attracted it, uh attracted me to it. Um so you study Islamic history, uh Arabic literature, both uh medieval and modern, um, but also uh Islamic religion. Uh and I suppose I was really interested, you know, I was most interested in uh the religion course, and you can take various optional papers in your final years. Um and I one of the papers I took was uh on Sufism, particularly on a Sufi thinker called Ibn Arabi, and and that really um again, I had a great teacher, Ron Netler. So um that helped kind of um deepen my interest and and and I sort of got captivated by studying this particular intellectual tradition within Islam. Um and yeah, so that was that was my way in, and I was fortunate then to um be able to stay on Luxard for um postgraduate studies and then um to to ultimately be be able to to teach as well here. Um so yeah, that would that was really my my journey into the subject. Yeah. Okay, thank you. And I'd like to come on to Sufism a bit later when we look at some potential parallels. And I'm thinking, you know, a lot of the listeners to this podcast will be Christians, probably the vast majority. Um, why do you think it's valuable for them to explore Islam and other faiths um rather than just focusing on their own tradition? You know, do you think you've gained spiritually, I'm sure intellectually from it? What would you say about that? Yeah, I mean, I personally think so. Um and you know, when I when I mention to other Christians a church or in um you know other sort of more specifically Christian contexts, what I do uh people react in different ways and and often people are a bit surprised. Um and you know, particularly that my work is, you know, my work is academic, it's it's not um, you know, I'm not studying Islam from uh kind of explicitly Christian or sort of mysiological perspective or anything like that. Although I do, I I I would say that my my Christian um faith suddenly shapes my academic work. Um and for me, many of my sort of scholarly heroes, the people whose work I find um very helpful and and inspiring um uh in terms of their scholarship on Islam were um were Christians and and often wrote sort of quite explicitly from a Christian perspective, people like uh Marshall Hodgson, who was a Quaker uh historian at the University of Chicago, Wilfred Campwell Smith, who was a Presbyterian um minister and uh founder of the Institute of Islamic Studies at McGill in Canada, and uh particularly Kenneth Cragg, who is a um Anglican uh priest and bishop. He was bishop in um Jerusalem. Uh he he he ended up here in Oxford uh towards the end of his life. Um and Cragg, he has um many books on Islam, but probably his most famous is called the The Call of the Minaret. Um and it's an extremely uh learned and sensitive um treatment of Islamic theology and practice, um, and he takes the um the the declarations of the Islamic Call to Prayer, the Adan, um as kind of the framework um for his presentation. Um and he's also kind of writing from an explicitly Christian perspective, and he addresses this question and he says at one point um he has this quite sort of striking line, he says that uh not to care about Islam would be not to care about Christ, I think is the um statement that he makes. He says, because the valid Christianity is the interpretative Christianity, and um we're sort of we have a duty as Christians to um to explore our faith as it were in dialogue with others um and to explore both kind of points of uh contrarity and and similarity or um similarity and difference. Um and that that for me I think is um quite inspiring, and I think um you know clearly there's a sense in which if you're studying another faith tradition, it helps sort of sharpen your own sense of what it is that you believe and what are the you know what are the points of difference, where are the dividing lines. Um but also I think there are there are things in other faith traditions that can can sort of enrich um your own um intellectual perspective on religion at least and and probably your your own spiritual perspective as well. Um so yes, I I I find that um and sort of more and more in in more recent years I've sort of been a bit more upfront about um my own Christian faith and how I'm engaging with Islam as a humanistic scholar, but also um as a Christian. And you know, I I think that that um you know it gives one a um a perspective that I think other you know atheist scholars of Islam or not non-religious scholars of Islam probably don't, and uh it gives one a perspective as a Christian that um Christians who are not engaging with other religions probably um you know they don't have that either. So um yeah, I'm I'm fortunate that I'm able to um you know spend most of my time thinking about um religious questions. Um and so inevitably that I would say shapes my own um thinking on my own faith as well as on Islam. Yeah, I noticed that in your the acknowledgments to the renewal of Islam that you you mentioned how you're working this all out from the perspective of your own Christian faith, which is something I hadn't uh picked up, I think, in in your first book. Um so that was an interesting shift. And you talked about you know noticing similarities, differences between the faiths. Let's come to certain areas maybe of continuity. What for you would be the biggest areas of similarity between Christianity on the one hand and Islam on the other? Yeah, I mean I think um a lot of the more recent scholarly work on Islam and particularly on the Quran um and and the rise of Islam um has focused on situating Islam in its sort of late antique um religious context, a context um that was pervaded by uh Christianity and Judaism as well. Um and you know clearly I think anyone who um who picks up a copy of the Quran will see that um Islam right from the beginning is in very close dialogue with um with the Christian tradition and the Jewish tradition. Um and that you know Christianity, Christian uh theological concepts, um biblical figures and stories, um terminology, uh imagery, these really provide the framework and the ingredients um for uh the Quran's own theology. Um this is not so much a sort of question of influence, tracing influences, but um but of looking at how uh the Quran kind of engages creatively, polemically um with um the Christian background, um is responding to it and kind of um you know subverting it in some ways and and and confirming it in others. Um so you know, right from the beginning Islam is is in close dialogue with Christianity, and and that means that there are um there are theological truths uh in the Quran that I think you know Christians can um can happily affirm. Um you know one thinks of how the um Quran describes Jesus as the word of God, um how um you know the Quran is very interested in uh the miracles of Jesus, um healing the blind and the leper and reviving the dead, these are all affirmed by the Quran. The Quran seems to affirm the uh virgin birth. Um so there when it comes to kind of um I suppose some of the fundamental uh doctrines of of Christian theology, um there are points of of commonality, um continuity uh even with the Quran. Um and of course, you know, there's um you know much more fundamentally kind of uh commitment to kind of biblical monotheism. Um and the Quran sees itself as sort of confirming what is true in a Judaism and Christianity um or in the biblical tradition. Um so there's that uh sort of on the Quranic side. I think you know when you look at um Sufism, which um you know I know you want to get onto that um later. Yeah, can you just explain you can explain now, I think, uh, to our listeners what actually is Sufism. Sufism is one of and probably the most important mystical tradition within uh Islam. So mysticism being that kind of piety which um seeks some kind of communion or union with God. Um and it originates in uh the ninth century, the Christian era um in Iraq, and uh it becomes very widespread. You know, it's not it's it's wrong to think of Sufism as somehow hived off from Islam, a kind of esoteric tradition within this within Islam practiced by a few um unique individuals. It's you know, by the 11th century, twelfth century uh and onwards, it's absolutely everywhere in um in the Muslim world. It's you know becomes absolutely central to um Islamic thought and practice. Um and uh this is sort of catalyzed by um the emergence and then spread of Sufi orders, which are you know a bit like monastic orders, but again, they're much more um I suppose they're they're more worldly in in some respects. The Sufi ones are more worldly. The Sufi ones, yeah. Yeah. Um and um and so and so it sort of really is is absolutely central to uh Islamic thought, as I've said, and um it's really only in more recent times, so from the second half of the 19th century onwards, that Sufism has been under kind of more sustained attack from kind of within the uh Islamic tradition. Um so so to come back to um the the the question about kind of continuity and points of similarity, and within uh Sufism there's you know a very strong emphasis on um mutual love between God and man, um an emphasis on a kind of um on on the sort of inner spirituality of the individual believer. Um and um in the sort of later Sufi uh traditions you also get um some quite interesting thinking about uh Jesus in particular, who becomes uh a kind of exemplary figure um in uh you know in the poetry of Rumi and later Persian poets in the writing of Ibn Arabi and his followers. Uh Jesus is one example at least of um of the perfect man who is again perfect uh locus of manifestation of God's names and attributes, um and uh sort of has this kind of uh cosmic uh function. Um you've written quite extensively on that, haven't you? Yeah, that was um so I I've I I've written uh a couple of books on this uh Sufi intellectual tradition associated with the Ibn Arabi, and one book on this idea of the perfect human, um, and another on how um a particular Sufi thinker called uh Ajili um uh interprets um other religions and the pre-Kuranic scriptures and the pre Mohammedan prophets from his Sufi perspective. Um and so they're in in those works, you know, they're they're very much kind of still governed by uh Islamic uh theological concepts. Um but in those works I think there is a um you know quite a quite a large kind of common ground on which um Muslims and Christians can can meet to kind of think um in um dialogical ways. Um another aspect of that tradition which um is is interesting you know when seen from through Christian eyes is the way in which the figure of uh the Prophet Muhammad um gets um interpreted um as a kind you know, he gets interpreted as a kind of logos type figure. Um there's a lot of discussion of the what they call the Muhammadan light, which um they say is um the first created thing that existed before the uh creation of uh the world and through which um God gave um existence to the world and is the source of um the source of knowledge and inspiration for other prophets and saints. Um like some areas of similarity to the proslogian of John's gospel, but yes, some some differences definitely but some differences as well, but I think um I I I think it all of that those discussions come from um a similar kind of um perspective and they're informed probably by um by by Christian ideas, um yeah, at least sort of uh indirectly. Um so so yeah, I think you know that is one area where um as a uh as a Christian reader of these texts you um you you might see grounds for um for for dialogue and um for that there's clear sort of uh parallel there. Um yeah, I mean I I I I could go on, but I think um in in those uh instances um you know there's there's what might be called kind of salvific uh truth there within Islam. Okay. Um and you reminded me, you know, you were talking about the sort of polemical um nature of the Quran sometimes in relation to um the the Christian or Jewish scriptures. Um it reminded me of you know the the Genesis stories are clearly in dialogue with things like um the epic of Gilgamesh or the Enuma Elish um, you know, right at the beginning of Genesis. So that's you know a common narrative in different religions. And that that brings me to um maybe some areas of of difference. How do you think Christians should understand the Quran's relationship to the Bible in terms of those differences? Perhaps um, what would I mean a massive question, but like from a historical theological perspective, if a Christian were to pick up a Quran, which perhaps many Christians haven't done, I must admit I have not done that. Um what would be a good approach to their reading? Yeah, it's a it's a really good question. So yeah, I think I I briefly um mentioned yeah, this polemical edge to the Quran's engagement with Christianity. Um and I was thinking particularly of a recent book by uh Gabriel Said Reynolds, who's um professor at um Notre Dame and one of the leading um Quranic studies scholars uh working at the moment. Um and he showed I think quite um convincingly how um the um the Quran is really um utilizing Christian narratives and Christian um language or biblical language and um biblical narratives and um biblical kind of theological concepts um and kind of turning them around and using um them for uh its own purposes. Um and clearly you know the Quranic Jesus is not the biblical Jesus, it's not identical to the biblical Jesus, he's not um the Jesus of Christian theology. Um you know the Quranic Jesus is made to deny that he um you know claimed to be uh the Son of God. Um the Quran has various references which seem to you know deny uh other fundamental Christian doctrines like the Trinity, it says do not say three. Um the crucifixion there's a famous um there's one verse um of the Quran which um speaks about the crucifixion um and it's a very ambiguous verse. Um it um it says that the the Jews claim to have um to have killed Jesus, but um but they didn't rather and the way it's usually translated, it only seemed to them that they did. Um Muslim interpreters of the Quran have taken this in various ways, but the most common um explanation is that um it wasn't uh it wasn't Jesus who was who was crucified, so it's a kind of Docetic um reading of the that um could you just explain what you mean by Docetic reading to anyone who doesn't it's um that uh the figure um who was crucified only seemed to be Jesus from the Greek um verb docheo um and uh usually it's said uh in the um in the Quranic exegesis at least that um that another individual, whether Judas, Iscariot, um or or or someone else was um substituted for for Jesus and that um God sort of put the likeness of Jesus upon him. Um so kind of there are various kinds of Jacetic Christianity which um which in a sense deny the um that that that Jesus w took on a real uh human body. Um so so that clearly there's a denier there of um you know fundamental um tenet of Christian belief and I think that speaks to what I would see as the main the most fundamental point of divergence between Christianity and Islam uh is um you know on the one hand you know at least if we're talking about Western Christianity, the strong emphasis on kind of the fallenness of uh human nature, the need for um redemption, the redemption in the in in Christ, um which takes place through the crucifixion and resurrection. Um and on the other hand, uh Islam's um Yeah, Islam doesn't really have a notion of um the fall um or original sin. Um and therefore, you know, there's a much more optimistic view of humanity as it were. Um and the view is basically that um belief in God, submission to God is innate in the human being. It's that's what that's kind of the natural um tendency of mankind. And it's only because of education and culture um that people get kind of put off that path. But if they're educated in the right way, then uh there's nothing stopping people from um from believing in God and submitting to him, and particularly submitting to his law, you know, um living life um in accordance with the divine will. Um and therefore there's no there's no need for uh redemption, there's no need um for atonement. Um and yeah, so Marshall Hodgson, who I I mentioned earlier, the the historian from the University of Chicago, he has a nice essay on Christianity and Islam as um frameworks for life. Um and you know, while Christianity is he says is about um responding to um you know redemptive love, Islam is about responding to what he says, uh what he calls a total moral challenge. So um, you know, there's um there's an emphasis on um on orthopraxy in Islam, on you know um on living life correctly, that's sort of what the sharia is all about. Um and there's an optimism that humans are able to do that without um you know without a uh a saviour in the in in the person of Jesus. So um so I think that is where there's this kind of um most, you know, where the gap is widest, as it were, um between and do you I hadn't really thought about that gap um very much. Do you do you personally find, well, I mean I guess the answer is yes, but the Christian um the more perhaps pessimistic outlook of Western Christianity more realistic, more compelling than the Muslim optimism as you phrased it? Yeah, um I mean I do you know I do think um the you know I just as a sort of empire empirical observation um that if one's experience of life or um mine and I think many people's is you know that this world and humanity are both sort of basically good and and both basically evil. There's this sense that you know there is um you know things should be things should be good, you know, and that that we get glimpses of that goodness all the time. Um but yet often they don't live up to that kind of ideal, and and that's how I would understand kind of the the fall and and and sin in many ways. Um missing the mark, yeah. Like from Islam, I think is the Greek, yeah. Yeah. I think Islam is not um naive that there's evil in the world, um, but the way to control that evil uh is through the law, primarily. And there's a lot of recent scholarship on Islam. It's a it was a famous book in the Islamic Studies um published about 10 years ago now, um by a scholar at Harvard, who sadly died um soon after, called Shahab Ahmed, and the book's called What is Islam? Um it's a it's a great book. Um, it's not an easy book, but it's it it's it's a you know really insightful book in many ways. And he argues strongly against what he um of calls the legal supremacist or the non-centric interpretation of Islam, that it's all about law, it's all about Sharia, and this has been kind of the I'm this is a criticism of Western scholarship on Islam that it that it focuses too much on the law. Um so um no, so he, for instance, shows how you know while Islamic law prohibits the drinking of wine, um wine poetry has been absolutely fundamental to how Muslims have um expressed their Islam and and interpreted what it means to be Muslim and interpreted revelation. Um so he wants to sort of get us away from focusing too much on the law, and I think there's some truth to that, and we have to have a more expansive conception of what sharia is. So the sharia is not just a system of rules and regulations, and you know, it's partly that. Um but there are um there are various the sharia puts all actions into five categories, or as how many jurists do. You know, there's there are mandatory actions like praying, there are forbidden actions like you know drinking wine or eating pork. And you know, if you you know if you don't do the mandatory actions, then then you'll be punished by God. If you do the forbidden actions, then you'll be punished by God. Um But then there are these intermediary um categories as well of actions which are um desirable or recommended, um, and on the other hand, actions which are sort of reprehensible. Um and these sort of don't that there are sort of uh otherworldly consequences to them, but they're they're usually not thought to be this worldly consequences to them. You know, judges don't go around um punishing people for um forvoiding lust or something, reprehensible. Um so like singing, for instance, is sometimes put in the reprehensible category of certain kinds of music. Um so in that sense, the Sharia is is kind of a system of morality as well as a system of um law in the more narrow sense. Um and it seems I'll just sorry to interrupt, like I was thinking there's maybe a parallel as well to Judaism and how more recent Christian scholars have tried to move away from this narrow view of Judaism just being about, or you know, the Old Testament just being about the Torah. Um, and I think E. P. Saunders has uh wrote quite a bit about that. Um and yeah, I think I think it is interesting because there can be a caricature of Judaism as well as it was just follow the Torah and then you're right with God, and then Jesus comes along and it's all different, um, which I think is probably simplistic um regressionist. Yeah, I mean I think um so it's a it's a criticism of particularly kind of uh older generations of Western scholarship on Islam that they do have this sort of certain a certain kind of Protestant conception of um what religion is, it's about individual real religion is about individual belief, you know, faith, um, individual piety, and um sort of legalistic kinds of religion are um are sort of ersatz kinds of religion, or they're not, you know, that they're not um the good kind of religion. Um and Islam kind of falls into that um legalistic category along with Judaism. Um, I think a lot of the more recent scholarship um that I'm drawing on is in what we're talking about, people like Bernard Weiss, who is um he was based in Utah and actually was a a Christian uh minister himself. Um he you know, he he has this much more rounded, gives much more rounded picture of what um the law means in in the Islamic context. Um and there's a kind of spiritual um component to the law as well, and the the way that the law is interpreted. And coming back to the earlier discussion about Sufism, uh there's this sort of caricature that um you know you have Sufism on the one hand and the law on the other, and the Sufis don't really sort of care about the law, they're more interested in kind of the interior dimension of religion, and the the jurists are only focused on kind of the external dimension of religion. In fact, you know, all the great Sufis were were very insistent on the importance of upholding the law, many of the great Sufis were jurists, and vice versa. Um, so in a sense, they go hand in hand in the Islamic um context and mysticism and um and and an emphasis on the law. Um so yeah, so sort of coming back to the earlier point, you know, I think Islam does try to regulate perhaps the kind of human inclinations towards um evil through um through the sharia. And yeah, there's there's I've said more of an optimism that that can be done. Um and yeah, that I suppose I suppose, you know, in Islam salvation is through faith and works. Um there's some ambiguity on that because there are certain hadith which um indicate you know all you have to do is believe in God and and in his prophet. But um but um I think typically the the view would be that um you know one needs to um implement that faith through um through adherence to the law. Um so yeah, I think that would be a the a point of difference at least from um from well within kind of Protestant tradition. I mentioned Kenneth Craig earlier, so he I think um has he he's highlighted this point um in in a number of works. Um yeah. Yeah, but I guess again there's ambiguity within Christianity as well, because as you said, it's maybe more of a Protestant tradition, you know, salvation by by faith alone. Whereas you know, there are definitely ways you can read the Bible as saying the the faith has to lead to works in order to uh in order to be saved, um, which is a massive, massive question. One other question I just wanted to ask about um the Quran in terms of how it's responding to the Bible you said, um, particularly let's say in the figure in terms of the figure of Jesus, how do Muslims understand, therefore, that um the Quran was you know revealed to um Muhammad by the angel Jibril, you know, um how do they reconcile the fact that it seems to be in some ways a direct response unless the angel is kind of engaging in um biblical criticism? Yeah, I mean the the the main sort of conceptual tool um that Islamic exegetes employ to explain this kind of relationship with the biblical tradition is uh the concept in Arabic it's called tahrif, um and it comes from the Quran. Um the Quran uses um a word of that root and in other words, meaning and it means something like corruption or um tampering or alteration, and so the the claim made is that the Injil, the gospel, um was um was similarly revealed to Jesus in the same way that the Quran was revealed to um Muhammad, um, and that Christians have distorted its meaning um either through actually sort of tampering with the text by adding um things and taking these away, um, or by misinterpreting it. Um so those are kind of the two common ways in which that notion is is understood. So then um I think this is sort of what your question is is getting at. Um the the claim then would be that um that you know the truths the truths of Islam are there in the Bible as it originally was, but the Bible as um as used by Christians is not the true Bible. Um okay, I have heard that before, yeah. I mean the the the point about kind of um biblical criticism is interesting because then when you look you know when you get into the 19th century, uh and this begins really in India, um when um you look at kind of the interreligious polemics that are going on in in India, Muslim scholars start making use of kind of the higher criticism, historical critical scholarship on the Bible to kind of back up this claim of um of distortion. Um another claim that's often made in the kind of polemical context is that you know Christianity is kind of the invention of Paul who um who who distorted kind of the simple monotheistic teaching of um of Jesus. But so is that is that a position that's common today within Islam? Um yeah, it's hard to it's hard to know. I think it's you know it's certainly found in kind of medieval um polemical literature, um, and probably yeah, one one could find it in in modern polemical literature as well. Um there's an interesting um book published by someone called Samuel Ross. Um uh I can't remember the title, but it's it's on sort of the biblical turn in uh in Islamic or Quranic exegesis, and it's it's about how in the pre-modern periods, very few Muslim scholars engaged actually with the with the biblical scriptures, with the with the canonical um Bible, um, and that's partly because they didn't have access to it. Um it's partly because there are you know certain um hadith which seem to, or traditions which seem to kind of warn Muslims against um con uh consulting the Jewish and Christian scriptures. Um but then in the modern period you you get a sort of explosion of um Muslim engagement with the Bible, um and you get new perspectives. Um there's a very prominent um scholar in India called Said Ahmed Khan who argues very strongly that the Christian gospels, you know, the gospels are authentic, they are the the gospel that um God revealed, um and they've only been misinterpreted, and he actually writes a commentary on the um on the Bible, or at least he he writes on the beginning of Genesis and um on Matthew's gospel from um a Muslim perspective. Um and so with that um I suppose you get a more kind of um serious engagement with um with with the Bible um and um and there have been scholars like uh Shabir Akta here in um in the UK who has um has written Muslim com a sort of Muslim commentary on um Galatians. Um so yeah, there I think there's probably more of a um a greater knowledge, a greater um depth of engagement with um the biblical tradition in the modern period. So in some ways, um in some ways in the modern period there's more you know the the polemic has taken on a sharper edge, but in other ways um there's also um you know kind of this tradition of scriptural reasoning and um doing theology uh together through reading one another's scriptures. Okay. Yeah. So you See maybe a bit of hope for um some interfaith dialogue through that perhaps. I mean I think any kind of interfaith discussion needs to be it needs to be honest, it needs to be rooted in um in in kind of an accurate uh knowledge and a and a fair and objective account of each other's scriptures and each other's theological traditions. Um and you know speaking very you know, painting with a very broad brush, in the pre-modern period, um you know often there wasn't that kind of knowledge base. You know, there's kind of a an echo or a kind of faint awareness of certain key theological ideas or scriptural passages um of the other tradition. Um, but they're you know because they didn't have the the resources, um there wasn't that same depth of knowledge or or or breadth of knowledge. Um and so you know what we have today is you know any Muslim or Christian can read one of the scriptures and can engage with um the you know the the key texts of um the key theological texts of uh the each respective tradition. Um and so you know the resources are certainly there for a more um objective and honest um appraisal of both the similarities and differences. And of course you you now have also a big literature um a kind of theological literature, Christian theological literature and Muslim theological literature which engages with the other um religion. Um so yeah, the the potential is there for um for for a real dialogue in the sense of uh a dialogue which um is is honest and objective and um you know doesn't smooth over differences but also is is fair in in acknowledging similarities. Great. Well I think that could be a a good place to to wrap up today. Um yeah, like I said, I've got your book um here, The Renewal of Islam. If I can get that on the camera, lovely cover, and I would highly recommend um reading that. I I very much enjoyed it. And I think our conversation today has made me realize that um I still don't actually know that much about um Islam and and you know even other other religions. And I've you know I've taught religious studies in um in schools, and you know, there's often it's quite surface level. Um so I think I found it really helpful to to explore some of the similarities and differences, and hopefully some of our listeners have enjoyed it, and you've recommended or mentioned a lot of a lot of books, a lot of scholars that people can um take a look at, um, you know, as well as as well as your own work. So there's plenty to to dig into. Yeah, I'd just say um if if uh listeners want um a kind of more um a brief survey of the Islamic intellectual tradition, then um my other book, A Short History of Islamic Thought, is probably a good place to start. Uh yeah, yeah, it's a good place before you go to the Renewal of Islam, which um focuses on um Islamic reformist thought in the modern period and how it's engaging with that whole tradition. Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that having read them both. Um and yeah, if you did enjoy listening to our discussion today, please um download the the Faith Wave app. This podcast is part of Faith Wave. Please um give the video a like, uh subscribe to our channel, share it with anyone who might be interested as we look to grow um the channel, the app, so that we can get even more interesting, uh not even more interesting guests. More interesting sorry, Fitz, uh more interesting guests. Um you get what I mean, on on this podcast. Um, yeah, so please share away and um please subscribe. Fitz, thank you very much uh for for taking time to to chat with me. Um hopefully see you soon. And yeah, great blanks to all our listeners. Yeah, it was great fun. Thanks. Good. Bye.