How Oxford Changed My Faith | Theology Student Interview

What is it really like to study theology at Oxford University, and can it deepen your Christian faith, or shake it? 

Tuppy Morrissey sits down with Alina Khokhlova, an Oxford theologian who specialised in the ancient Syriac language (a branch of Aramaic language closely related to the tongue spoken by early Eastern Christians), to explore what studying theology formally can offer believers today.

Alina shares her journey to Oxford, where she became one of the only students in a decade to pursue the Syriac pathway — reading rare late antique theological texts in their original language with almost no set curriculum. They discuss what a typical week studying theology at Oxford looks like, how to navigate the challenges of higher biblical criticism, and why reading Scripture in ancient languages can become a surprisingly prayerful and meditative practice.

The conversation also turns to icons — what they are, how to read their symbolism, and why they matter for Christians of every tradition — as well as the rich church life Oxford offers, from Anglo-Catholic chapels to Orthodox communities that are quietly booming with converts.

What we cover:

Why study theology formally — and is it for everyone?
Studying the Syriac language and Eastern Christianity at Oxford
What a typical Oxford theology tutorial week looks like
Biblical Hebrew, Koine Greek, and the value of ancient languages
Higher criticism and its challenges for Christian faith
How theology can deepen — not undermine — belief
Icons as visual theology: symbolism, veneration, and the Incarnation
The Orthodox, Catholic, and Anglican church scene in Oxford
Evagrius of Pontus: "The one who prays is a theologian"

0:00 – Opening
0:44 – Introduction
1:34 – Why study theology formally?
2:17 – Backgrounds & paths to Oxford
8:32 – What is a typical week at Oxford?
9:55 – Studying ancient languages
14:02 – Faith & textual criticism at Oxford
18:29 – How theology deepened faith
24:15 – Churches in Oxford
29:44 – Orthodox Christianity in Oxford
33:12 – Icons & religious art
44:04 – Archaeology & material religion
46:01 – Key lessons from Oxford
48:25 – Final thoughts & encouragement

For Alina's videos on Icons: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsSDcjFojHAZl56RVCMpTPVSctu1HKdZf
Try the FaithWave app: https://www.faithwave.app/

#aramaic #AramaicLanguage #oxforduniversity #theology #christianpodcast #syriac #christianity #christianfaith

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

My name is Tuppy Morrissey, and with me today is Alina Koklova. Alina is currently studying for a master's in classical archaeology at the University of Oxford. And Alina also did her BA at Oxford. With that in mind, we are going to be discussing today what's it like to read or study theology at the University of Oxford? Alina, thank you very much for coming on. It's good to have you.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

For your introduction, Tabby.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

My pleasure. So, Alina, my first question is some Christians today, indeed some of our listeners might think, what's the point in studying theology in a formal academic setting? Couldn't we just rely on going to church, praying, reading our Bible? Why do you think it's valuable to study theology formally?

SPEAKER_01 0:51

I think theology academically is probably not for everyone. I think people interact with their faith very differently. And for some of us, uh something like practice and attending church weekly can be completely sufficient for living a rich spiritual life. But some people may be asking themselves questions about God and maybe wanting to learn more about their faith, about Christianity, or in fact other religions in a more formal and academic context. And I think for those people, studying theology at the university can be a very helpful thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Yeah, and I think that was my experience. That um so I read French and German at Christchurch, Oxford, um, for my BA, but then I became a Christian in my fourth and final year, and I felt that I wanted to understand my faith more deeply, and I'm an academically minded person. So I then did a what's called a postgraduate diploma in theology and religion at Regents Park, Oxford, which I know is where uh you studied as well for your for your BA. Um but I would agree that not everyone might have that inclination. Um, but what about you? What's your your background? Could you tell us a little bit about how you ended up going to Oxford and perhaps what you're researching today?

SPEAKER_01 2:18

I also didn't start with studying theology. That wasn't my first degree. Uh, I started with studying philosophy and comparative literature uh because I enjoyed texts, I enjoyed um learning about ideas and culture. Uh, and then I felt like the kind of texts I was most interested in were theological texts, and that's how I decided to change degrees and start my BA in in theology and then um in religion and Asian Middle Eastern studies. Um so for me it was really the desire to um to learn about the the Christian tradition across centuries, across regions, which which led me to study theology. And I really enjoyed it. Um for three years I did Oxford, but then I felt like I want to study religion from a new angle, uh, and that brought me to archaeology. I'm still focusing on religion, just more on material religion. I'm looking at religious architecture, religious artifacts, um in a way um trying to examine how people embodied their beliefs and how those beliefs translated into um practices and also into objects and architecture and the environment around people.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Fantastic. And why did you choose to study at Oxford when you did your um BA in theology and religion? And where were you before? Sorry to ask two questions.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

I started uh initially studying at the University of St. Andrews, uh far in the north. Um and I think one of the main reasons that brought me to Oxford was that I really wanted to specialize in the study of Eastern Christianities and specifically in the Syriac tradition. And Oxford is one of the very few places in the UK and in fact around the world, uh which offers students to learn uh classical Syriac and, in fact, a lot of other uh rare ancient languages at the undergraduate level.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Um and what was your experience like of studying Syriac? I know you mentioned to me when we were preparing that very few people do that course. I never came across someone doing it. Was it a good choice for you?

SPEAKER_01 4:42

I enjoyed it. So the degree I did is is is very niche. There are usually two or three people every year who decide to do it. Uh, it's half theology and half um learning ancient language and then reading theological text in this original language. And some people choose to specialize in Islam and so they learn Quranic Arabic. Some people specialize in Buddhism, they learn Tibetan, Hinduism, they learn Sanskrit. And one of the available pathways is specializing in Eastern Christianities. Uh, and then you have a choice to either learn Armenian or Syriac. Um and Syriac. It's it's a fair question. I encountered um Syriac tradition some years before I started my degree. And in Latin sacred sea, between the third, seventh century, there were some incredible theologians living in the territory of modern Turkey, Iraq, Iran, uh back then between the Byzantine and Persian empires. And they wrote really rich theological and mystical texts in Syriac language. Uh, there is quite a rich um and still understudied corpus of theological texts in this language. And I felt like there is a lot to discover in it. Um, and that's that's what brought me to to learn this language. So that was the pathway I chose, and I was the only person at the undergraduate level studying Syriac. And I don't think anyone has done it in the last 10 years or so. So they they didn't really have a set curriculum. And my studies looked like meeting my supervisor and him asking, So, Alina, what do you want to read next week? Um, and I would say, hmm, let's read something apocalyptic, or let's read something about Mary, or I don't know, about um angels. And then he would kind of look through his library and pull out the book and say, Okay, that's what you're going to read. Uh, which which was, I think, quite a special experience. You don't really get that if you do just straight theology or any other degree where you have more people and it's more kind of organized and structured.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Yeah, that that links to my next question. I was going to say, what is a typical week at Oxford like studying theology? And perhaps you can say that um, you know, on the theology side, but it sounds like you had a really unique experience. Like you said, I definitely didn't have that. Whilst I really enjoyed my time um doing French and German and then theology, it was here's your reading list, choose the, you know, you have a choice of three books from ten um and you know, get on with that. There was not that much um personal freedom that you had. Um but on the theology side, if someone listening is considering applying to Oxford or or perhaps you know Cambridge might be quite similar, what does it look like? How does study work in terms of workload, tutorials, academic environment?

SPEAKER_01 7:55

First year I did the regular theology degree, so I have quite a good idea of what it looks like. Um and during most weeks I would have a few language classes. Uh, because during the first year, every student follows three set modules, one of which is kind of a general introduction to Christianity. Um, it's formally called the figure of Jesus through the centuries, but is uh colloquially known as Jesus Forever, uh which is quite a lovely name, I think. Yeah, it's good. Um then there is an introduction to all the New Testament and a more mythological introduction to the study of religion. And so you would usually have one tutorial a week where you get a set reading list on a topic, um, for instance, on the representations of Jesus during the Middle Ages or something of that sort. Uh, you would read, you would prepare um maybe a two or three thousand-word essay, you would meet with your tutor once a week and discuss and debate that topic, sometimes individually, sometimes maybe in a pair. I think that it varies from college to college and from module to module. And then you also choose a scriptural language to learn throughout your first year. Uh so for me it was biblical Hebrew because it just paired quite well with Syriac as another Semitic language. Many people did Latin, there is New Testament, there is again um Arabic, Tibetan, Sanskrit. So for that, you will have three classes a week where you meet with your class and with your professor, you do some language exercises, and gradually you start reading the scriptural texts in the original, which I think is a great part of the degree.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. As a linguist myself, I think you can't really beat uh digging into the original text. And when I did theology at Regents Park, I did Biblical Hebrew as well for a year, which I really enjoyed. I can't imagine I remember that much of it uh anymore. But I thought it was it was fantastic. Really hard, but um really eye-opening. And we read the book of Jonah, um, and you see quite how simple the original is, if I can say that. Um it's it's quite sort of sparse and um bare, if I can, yeah, if I'm allowed to say that. But um it's a really unparalleled opportunity that you have at Oxford. And I think one that many theologians enjoy, even if lots of people don't carry on. Um, did you do any Greek or you just stuck to Old Testament language?

SPEAKER_01 10:37

I I stuck to Semitic languages just because the workload is already quite high, and I felt like picking up Greek on top of that would be quite challenging, though it's it's still in my bucket list. I want to do it one day.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Yeah, I would I would recommend it, but I was lucky enough to do it um from the age of uh 11, which sounds quite weird to many people, I'm sure, to study ancient Greek from when you're 11. But here in the UK at sadly a smaller and smaller number of schools, it's traditional to uh learn Latin and Greek. Uh so I started Latin when I was nine and uh Greek when I was eleven, and then I did Latin up to GCSEs, so 16 and Greek until I was 18 for A-level, so I really enjoyed that. And again, when I was doing uh I studied the Pauline Epistles, the Less of St. Paul at Oxford, and so I enjoyed trying to read the original Greek. And the Greek of the New Testament is simpler than the Greek of Homer, for example. It's called Koiner or Common Greek, um, and yeah, it's quite it's the the common people's language, so it is um something that you can pick up relatively quickly, although Greek is difficult. Um you mentioned that Oxford has quite an intense workload. Um how did you find that? Was that very different to St. Andrews, for example?

SPEAKER_01 12:02

I tried to compare it fully because um when I was in St. Andrews it was still the pandemic, so things were a bit odd, um, I think. But I would say that the workload is more intense just because you are expected to write an essay or sometimes two essays every week. Um and and that does require quite a lot of time and thought and and energy, frankly speaking. But it also feels really rewarding. Um once you complete your essay and you feel like ooh, you know, I finally know this, and you look at this piece of work, and there is something special about this feeling, I think, even though you may really struggle while you're working on it.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Yeah, no, I would completely back that up. Um it's a very it is an intense experience studying at Oxford. I think everyone finds that on every degree. Um, but for most people, really worthwhile uh and can leap to some great things. Let's shift a little bit in our focus to your your own Christian faith and how that um has um been shaped by your study of theology. So when you started your theology degree, were you already a Christian, or was that something you uh discovered along the way?

SPEAKER_01 13:21

I was already a Christian when I started my degree. That's what the my Christianity brought me to um to pursue this academic path. Um though I I was kind of unsure about where where I stand denominationally, because I had quite an ecumenical formation. I was exposed to the Anglican Church, to Catholic Church, to Orthodox Church. So when I came to Oxford, I I wasn't certain where I stand on that on the on that spectrum.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

From my experience, quite a lot of the Oxford theology faculty, particularly on the Old Testament side, um, can be a little bit skeptical of the Christian faith. I think many New Testament scholars are um are Christian or more sympathetic. Um but when I did the narrative world of the Hebrew Bible paper, it's called, um, there was a big focus on um like higher criticism. So the the movement that came out of Germany in the late 18th and 19th centuries, where you're trying to work out exactly who the author was, exactly when it was uh written, what the literary structure is, and you know the most obvious example of that is breaking the Pentateuch, the first five books of the uh of the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible into what's called uh the documentary hypothesis. So four different um original authors and they've been sort of cobbled together and it's all messy, and that's why you have inconsistencies in um, particularly in sort of the narratives of Genesis, for example. And for me personally, I found that quite difficult. I was with um these tutors basically saying, Oh, this didn't happen, that didn't happen, we actually now know that this is what took place, um, and no one kind of reassuring me, oh, but you can still believe this. Did you have a similar experience at all to that, or were you more um encouraged in your faith when studying?

SPEAKER_01 15:21

I do agree with you regarding textual criticism. I I did have to do a bit of it during my first year uh when we had the introduction to the New Testament and Old Testament studies. And after that, in fact, I made a conscious choice not to do any Bible papers. Um I only specialized in either linguistic or historical papers because I did feel like this very dry German approach uh is not very conducive uh to my well-being or inspiring my faith or my creativity. Um I think there is a value to it, but I think you can read the Bible in very different ways and you can study it in different ways. And and I think it's it's a bit of a pity that Oxford is so focused on this specific school of thought and textual criticism. Uh so instead I picked papers on the early church, I picked papers on um medieval Christianity, on systematic theology, so that I could engage more with secondary scholarship, um, with theological text, rather than with the Bible itself.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yeah, and I think I I would perhaps advise many people to start with reading uh academic commentaries on the Bible, particularly those written by um Christians. That's not to hide from secular atheist perspectives, but I think particularly if you're quite new to your faith, um, as I was, and it seems like you were exploring your own faith quite a bit, it can be a bit unsettling if you just read all these um books by people who want to tear it down. Um so I think that approach that you took, focusing on uh linguistics and and history uh could be beneficial for many Christian uh young students who want to look at some theology. It's just got to be approached with some caution. But I, you know, I have friends and siblings indeed who've studied theology and found it hugely enriching for their faith. Um probably just takes, you know, it takes a bit of perseverance and you know personal uh strength, courage. Um were there any ways, let's think about something positive, were there any ways in which it did deepen your faith to focus on the early church, for example, or your Syriac studies?

SPEAKER_01 17:53

I enjoyed reading the text in the original. We we commented with you a bit about that already. Um I think when you read uh even biblical text in foreign language, you just spend so much more time thinking about every single word. And it can be very, very meditative, very prayerful practice. Even if you read um a story that you know so well, if you read under Genesis 1 in Hebrew, we by now we all know what happens in Genesis 1. And if you take your time to actually go through every single word in the original language there, I mean it's a whole new world opening up for you. And and the same happened uh when I was studying Syriac. Uh essentially all my classes were just opening an original um latency or medieval um kind of hairy theological text in Syriac and going through it slowly with a dictionary and trying to really figure out what is the author trying to say, what are they thinking, um, what message they're trying to convey. Which I think you you don't always get when you just read a lot of secondary academic scholarship on a certain text. Um so I'm I'm very happy that I I specialized in ancient languages, and I would recommend that to everyone doing theology.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Yeah, I think you mentioned Genesis 1. I think when you unpack the Hebrew there, it's just incredible. You know, I think of I mean you'll know a lot more about this than I do, but the use of uh the number seven, how many times um you have words that are uh mentioned seven times. Um I think I I read the commentary by an Italian theologian uh called Cassuto, I think you pronounce his name that way. Um and it was it was really sort of mind-boggling the level of intricacy um in Genesis 1. Do you have any more specific examples from that book than I can offer?

SPEAKER_01 19:49

I think almost every word in in the text uh you know can be can be commented on. I think uh scholars often debate the meaning of uh tohu vabuhu, uh meaning something like the bottomless deep, the obese. Um and I know there are some, for example, eco-feminist theologians who came up with kind of very radical reinterpretations of Genesis 1 and of the creation narrative just based on this term. Um it is quite unusual, we don't really encounter much in Hebrew. So um, and that's in fact true for a lot of uh Hebrew Bible that when you read the translation, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. But then you go to the Hebrew original and you realize that a lot of the time scholars have no idea what the word means, and they just, you know, um try to figure out what it might mean, but it's actually a very perplexing and very mysterious text which which leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

And I think that should encourage some humility when we approach the biblical texts that there's so much we we still don't know, and we're trying to discover. So anyone who thinks they've got the definitive reading of the creation narratives or you know, Paul's letter to the Romans probably needs to um think again. Um were there any practices whilst you were at Oxford that helped you stay really grounded in your faith? I think for me, I used um the resources by a great uh theologian I really liked called Dr. Michael Heiser, who died um a couple of years ago, sadly, but he had this podcast called the Naked Bible Podcast. And when I encountered something I didn't um get in my degree or which was challenging for my faith, I tried to sort of find his his answer to it, and often it was really helpful. Was there anything like that for you?

SPEAKER_01 21:43

I think the experiential aspect is really important for me and still is because when you study um theology in academic context, sometimes you just fill in your bubble with your books in the library, all these great minds, all these towards ideas, theories. Dogma and it it can be really confusing and just difficult sometimes. And doing something simple like actually going to church or meeting your Christian friends and talking with them, um, or traveling. And you know, what um during my second year, I just took a week off during one of the terms and went to Rome with my friends, and I thought to myself, well, I'm a theologian. You know, what could be a better place to learn theology, to learn about Christianity than Rome? I mean, no book can really replace that. Um I think that's sorry to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

We were you allowed to do that? Uh, how are you allowed to do that? Go on holiday drinking.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

I well, because I only had one class a week. So, you know, if your class is on Monday, you can easily go away on Tuesday and come back on Sunday and be there for the next class. Um so I think this this uh flexibility which Oxford allows you is is sometimes nice. Um so I think the beauty of theology is that it's it's not just there in the books, it's it's everywhere, it's it's around us. You know, the the whole world is your lab when you're a theologian and you can take this um spiritual and intellectual pursuit everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

That's really nice. I think that's really encouraging for people. And it brings me to uh the topic of churches in Oxford that we wanted to talk about. Um, because you know, if people listening are think about visiting Oxford or studying there, um, there are so many churches that you can attend. You have the chapel within I think every college or almost every college. Um, and I I said I was at Christchurch, my undergraduate degree, so that's where the the cathedral of the university is, um, which makes Oxford a city. Um then you have you know many evangelical churches, a strong Anglo-Catholic tradition, um, many Catholic churches and an Orthodox presence as well. What was your experience navigating such a vast landscape?

SPEAKER_01 24:00

It can be quite overwhelming uh and and quite difficult to find your own place just because this landscape is so rich. There are so many communities you can join, so many places you can go to. Um, but on the other hand, it's I think it's also an advantage of Oxford. It can really enrich your spiritual life. Just two hours ago, I was actually at the ascension celebration um in Oxford at my college. Um we have uh an Anglo-Catholic chapel there at Beucy House, and they were singing the hymns, and the whole community gathered together and sang along, um, which I think is is lovely. And I would encourage people to go to different churches, to talk to people, um, to participate in each other's celebrations, um, like joining the Corpus Christi procession with the Catholics, or attending the Orthodox Easter, or um attending the um sung service at your um college chapel. I think I think there is a lot to be taken from the city and and a lot of pious people and and wonderful communities.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Yeah, I think that's really good advice to to explore um and not to try just stick to to your bubble because that is a danger and it doesn't encourage Christian unity, which is obviously a biblical um command. And I've had a complete mind blank about the is it St. Cross, the college, that's next Pusey House. Is that where you are now?

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Yeah, that's where I am at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Yeah. It suddenly came to me after I said I had a mind blank. And Pusey House, I would recommend um for everyone to go there, ever anyone in the UK who's who's listening. It's a beautiful Anglo-Catholic um chapel, as you said, um, with a great, a great team there um and a long-standing theological tradition. Um a lot of the the famous Oxford movement um came out of there, which was um you know largely influenced by the um the man himself, uh with his first name, Edward Pusey, I think. Um and that has continued um right up to this day with a really strong theological tradition, a great, great uh library. But you're right that there can be um certain certain divisions, and it can be a bit harder to to jump from one um to the next. Did you primarily attend um an Orthodox church whilst you were an undergrad? Or or indeed where are you uh worshipping now, if I can ask?

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Often I go to the Greek Orthodox church. Um, but but not always. I mean, there are four Orthodox churches in in Oxford. Uh there is a Russian Orthodox one, a Greek Orthodox, Romanian, and Serbian. Uh sometimes I join my Catholic friends for Mass in one of the Catholic churches. And again, there is a wealth of them, I think four or five at least, in the city center. Um and yeah, sometimes for some special celebrations like Ascension or Christmas service uh with carols or things like this. I also like joining some um some Anglican churches like the PewCee House indeed, or some smaller, more rural chapels on the outskirts of Oxford.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

And um, you reminded me, I think one of the must-visit churches is the the oratory um in Oxford, not the not the Brompton Oratory in London, although that's fantastic as well. Um, but the oratory is a really beautiful Catholic church. And you can also um see where Tolkien and C. S. Lewis um are buried. I've been to both their their graves if you're a fan of um some Christian uh inspired fantasy. Um C. S. Lewis's graveyard is particularly beautiful, really special, um, small rural church. I would I would really recommend that um for anyone who's a fan of C. S. Lewis, as I am. Um and to bring back to what you were discussing, is there much of an Orthodox presence? You said there are four Orthodox churches, but they're obviously from four different um you know traditions. Um what was it like? Because I th I sadly I think if you're an Anglican or perhaps Catholic, you might not come across loads of um Orthodox Christians whilst ad hoc, or particularly as an undergrad. I mean, I don't think I did. Um what's it like for the Orthodox there?

SPEAKER_01 28:37

I would say that the Russian Orthodox community is uh the most busy one. Uh there are loads and loads of converts uh joining this church, a lot of young people converting to orthodoxy. Um so it is actually a very, very vibrant uh and very tight-kneed community at the same time. Um they're renting this um kind of rather small church, which used to be an Anglican chapel, and then not fitting its side. It's it has become so crowded over the last 10, 20 years that they're now looking to rent, I think, an old Methodist church, um, because people are just not fitting inside. It can get actually quite stuffy and overwhelming, just you know, because of the the number of people within this small space. Um and the Greek community also has quite a lot of young people, though I would say mainly people um with Greek roots or Cypriots. Um so this community is a bit more um, I guess, like ethnically based. Um but there is, for example, an Orthodox student society, just there is a Catholic student society, and they organize some lovely events, some talks, some dinners, fellowship. Uh sometimes they also host some events together with the Catholics, which I think is great, and I hope they'll be doing more of that. Um yeah, so so I think there is there is a lot to do for um a young Christian of every denomination in Oxford. I think overall um it is maybe surprisingly quite a pious city where a lot of people take their faith really seriously.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Yeah, I think that's true. You have you obviously you have many students with with no faith, but it's a place where there are a lot of sincere Christians. There tends to be a good, you know, small a good community in every college, which is fantastic. And and like you said, it's there's lots to do. I think if you're if you're going to a new university, um, you know, even if you're not a Christian, going to to church can be a fantastic way to to make friends. And I know at uh at one of the famous evangelical churches in Oxford, St. Aldates, which I went to for a bit, they even say it's a good place to find a a spouse. So um that could be a great reason for anyone listening. Um and sorry, I've lost my train of thought after that terrible joke, but um I wanted to move on to your own um work right now. So you're doing your masters, but you're also um working with Faith Wave. So anyone listening uh this podcast is part of the app, Faith Wave. So please uh subscribe to the Faith Wave YouTube channel. Um check out the app where there are lots of fantastic theological resources. And Alina is um currently creating some educational content about religious icons, so icons used in the Orthodox tradition. Could you explain to anyone unfamiliar with icons what they are, uh how they differ from religious art in the West?

SPEAKER_01 31:54

It's not such an easy question, but I'll say to. Um so icon is um an Orthodox sacred image, um, usually depicting Christ or Mother of God or saints. Um and icons have a lot of uh liturgical and devotional uses in in the Orthodox Church. They're often seen as um a window into heaven, as a way to connect with the person depicted. And that's why Orthodox Christians uh venerate icons, they open the sign of the cross, they put candles in front of them, they kiss icons, um, because orthodox Christians believe that um the icon, the depiction of the saint is intimately bound with the saint themselves in heaven. And so by honoring the depiction, you're really honoring the prototype, the person depicted who's already in heaven. Um, and it's it's an ancient tradition going back all to late insequity and middle ages, and it has produced some really beautiful um works of art.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Yeah, I I think I have three icons. Myself and my wife has um a really lovely one. I have one with uh St. George slaying the dragon, then uh one of St. Paul uh and then the Holy Family. Um and you know, I'm not an or an Eastern Orthodox Christian, but um firstly I think they're just beautiful. Uh and secondly, I do um find there's some spiritual uh value in I mean uh yeah, I I don't I haven't venerated them, but I have prayed um whilst you know kneeling before them um and sort of thinking particularly of uh those in the in the icon. Um and I found that really really valuable. Um how do you help people now? What are you trying to do to help people engage with icons? What's the uh the impetus behind your your work with Faithwave now?

SPEAKER_01 34:06

The way this project started is that I realized that you can actually see quite a lot of icons in various religious contexts, even in many um churches in chapel and chapels in in Oxford, which are not necessarily Orthodox, as you self-mention. Um sometimes people like to keep icons in their church, sometimes they bring them from their trips, maybe to Greece or some other Orthodox countries. Um I also did this little experiment. I tried to go to many, many uh Oxford churches and chapels and see um in how many of them I can find icons. So there is an icon in PewChouse, there is an icon in the oratory, um, I found icons in in many college chapels. Um so there is there is kind of a presence of of that form of religious art. Um but I think they can often be a bit confusing to people, um, especially some with more um difficult scenes depicted. And I think icons are are very rich. I I see them as a kind of visual theology. They're so full of symbolism, they're so full of theological meanings. And so the idea behind the project I'm working on now is to give people tools to decipher those messages, to appreciate icons more, to understand more what's going on within a certain icon. Um, and yeah, just thus to to to grow, to appreciate them more, um and and enjoy this form of religious art, whether you're orthodox or not.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Fantastic. And have you painted any icons yourself? Is is painted the correct verb to use?

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Some people prefer to say to write an icon rather than to paint. Uh that's the word used in Greek, but uh I personally don't think it's it's so important. I'm not uh a purist in this sense. Um I I have done some kind of exercises that you're supposed to do when learning how to paint an icon. I haven't really painted or written an icon from scratch myself, uh, but I have seen people do that because I have a lot of friends who are professional icon painters, and I observed them uh working on icons many, many times every stage of the process, from preparing the wooden panel to uh preparing the paint out of the natural pigment to then working in one layer after another, and it's it's a fascinating process. And I would love to learn to paint icons one day as well, uh perhaps in the future. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Yeah, Greek and learning Greek and writing icons. And if I'm not mistaken, icons are never signed by the artist. If that is correct, why is that the case?

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Very rarely you would notice that some of the modern icons are signed, but indeed it's not it's not common, it's not um canonical. Uh, and the idea is that when when you're painting an icon, it's not really about you as an artist and your identity and your own genius and expressing your creativity. Um, but it's almost becoming um an instrument of divine inspiration, uh, becoming part of an ancient tradition and contributing to it and transfer transferring this um divine mystery that you inherited and this art as well, um which I think is very different, uh creates a very different relationship between the artist and the artwork than um with conventional secular art. And for example, you would often hear that before beginning to paint an icon, uh the icon painter would fast for a long time, they would pray for a long time. So it's it has been traditionally approached as a spiritual exercise which requires uh though spiritual preparation.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Um and yeah, that level of sorry, that level of humility seems really beautiful to me. Yeah, not to uh impose your own self, your own ego onto onto the work, very different, as you said, to so much of uh secular art or secular society in general. Um and are there any common misconceptions you think that people have about icons, particularly perhaps any um Protestants, Catholics, um, you know, Anglicans who uh are not familiar with icons or are familiar and don't think they should be used? Is there anything you'd like to say about that? Because it can be a contentious topic.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

People feel quite uneasy about the idea of venerating icons, um, and about the kind of the very um nuanced distinction between veneration and worship, which worship, which is not always fully clear. Um and especially if you come from a more kind of ascetic, austere Protestant tradition, um, where there is a strong emphasis on avoiding the veneration of idols and kind of objects, um it can be it can be quite difficult to to understand what what icons are doing and why they are treated the way they are treated. Um I would say the the answer to this difficulty is lies in the incarnation. So um Orthodox art is is very incarnational. It's it's based in the belief that God became flesh and thus kind of established this uh this link, this bond between the material, human, physical world and the spiritual world, which allows us to uh create this kind of art, which is why we can depict Christ, which is why we can depict saints. Um but I think even for those um who feel uneasy about venerating images, icons can still be a useful um tool in their spiritual journey, as you mentioned, as a as an aid to prayer and contemplation.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

It reminded me what you're saying about um how the icon is uh is written and some of the spiritual value in the process and in the appreciation of it of um mandalas in in Buddhism. I don't know if you're um familiar with those, if you've looked at a comparison to those, but where um monks tend to use sand, coloured sand, to create these beautiful um diagrams, you know, circular diagrams that again try to reveal a uh some kind of Buddhist truth, and then it's even more hardcore than not signing it, they tend to um destroy them once they're complete um to reflect the Buddhist teaching of impermanence, nothing lasts forever. Um have you ever done any comparative work with other forms of religious art?

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Much. Um I've done a bit on um kind of relationship between um Orthodox religious art and Western religious art, and in fact I would say that a lot of um kind of Western religious art coming from before the Renaissance is very similar with with icons. There are so many similarities in the visual language, in the approach to the image, and only after the Renaissance they can really begin to diverge. Um, but they used to be much more, I think, common understanding and similarities. Um and so you can do some very interesting comparisons between uh say 14th-century Italian paintings and uh 14th century Byzantine icons, sometimes they're incredibly similar.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

That's cool. Okay, that's something for anyone interested to to look into, and perhaps you'll um look into that on your uh your videos with with FaithWave. But if you're interested in looking at some of Alina's explanations of iconography, um please do uh check out uh her work on Faith Wave. And there's there's more to come, I think. Some some interviews, is that right?

SPEAKER_01 42:35

There's a lot more to come.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

A lot more to come. Exciting, very good. And um that's just yeah, another general invitation to to support our channel and help us to to grow at this early stage. Let's connect this together, you know, Oxford and your work on icons with your study of archaeology. Um, are those some of the material artifacts you're looking at, or is it something completely different?

SPEAKER_01 43:01

As I mentioned, I've been looking, for instance, on religious architecture, on monastic architecture, uh, on fresco paintings as well, and that is directly um connected to icons because the iconography is the same, whether you're depicting the scene on a piece of wood or on the wall of the church. And and I I found that very um inspiring and um complementary in regards to my previous theological pursuits. Because it's one thing, for example, reading the writings of desert fathers, and then it's another thing actually looking at the buildings they lived in and and thinking about the practicalities of their life. And I think it helps you to understand that they were real people who also had to sleep and wake up and they felt cold and they felt hot. Um and it it brings very interesting dimension, I think, to um to the things I learned in the past. as part of my um theology degree.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Yeah, and that's that's so true. It can be easy to idolize these figures that we we read about and they almost become sort of um angelic beings or yeah they don't have to uh live in this this fallen world and do boring things but actually that was um a lot of their life and a lot of their life would have been quite simple um they wouldn't have been constantly philosophizing which I think uh gives encouragement to to people today that you don't have to be uh a spiritual superhero necessarily um you can live your um faith in a in a quiet um but sincere fashion and looking back well and you're still at Oxford what's one key lesson from your um extended time studying there that uh you carry with you in your in your work and and your faith one of the things Oxford really taught me is how much you can learn from other people and how much you can learn through dialogue because of course Oxford tutorials are great Oxford libraries are great uh but some of the most enriching experiences for me in Oxford have been social just meeting other students meeting other professors and expressing ideas and arguing and debating and listening to other people and what they have to say about faith about religion about philosophy any kind of topic um it's it's a great place to learn from other people and and that's I think one of the main lessons I took away from it definitely and I would just you know just to advertise also I would highly recommend it to to to anyone who's really sort of academically minded that it is a really special environment and like you were suggesting you're just surrounded by a lot of curious intelligent people and I think that's such a such a wonderful experience that you can't really um emulate uh in many other contexts so I would thoroughly thoroughly recommend it and you know we said a few potential um problems with studying theology at Oxford it's not this sort of perfect course um but on the flip side I think we would both say um hope you would agree Alina that it's um it was a fantastic time for us um both studying theology um I definitely uh learnt a lot about um biblical studies and biblical languages um and I also looked at Christian ethics and I think doing that in a really focused um way is so is so valuable because it can be easy to make up your mind about some some massive issues like euthanasia or or just war um by sort of reading one article but if you're studying it for a a tutorial essay you have to really dig into a lot of primary literature which is a really fantastic and useful experience.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

Do you have any final thoughts or words of encouragement for any Christians who are trying to integrate faith and academic work even academic work that is not uh theological I do um during my first year my my good friend shared this quote with me who's also a theologian which really stayed with me throughout my degree um and the quote is this is this very famous saying by uh one of the desert fathers from the fourth century Vagarus of Pontus uh who said that the one who prays is a theologian and the theologian is the one who prays. And and I think that's something which is very important to keep in mind that it's important to read about theological matters but but prayer should also be always at the heart of every theological pursuit.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Yeah I I would definitely agree with that that you could spend your life reading uh a lot of books and I I I'd certainly love to read um but sometimes it's not actually that useful and it can be a distraction even from um from prayer like you said or gathering with other Christians uh just to bury one's head in a in a big tome um might not lead you somewhere. However, obviously keep listening to uh our theological discussions I don't want to turn people off theology and there'll be plenty more um from Faithwave to come in the the coming months. So please if you enjoyed this video um please like the this video and subscribe to our channel uh Alina thank you very very much for for coming on and I'm I'm looking forward to looking at some of your work on icons it's something I definitely would like to learn more about. Thank you for your questions Dubby good have a lovely rest of your day and God bless to all our listeners.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

Goodbye bye bye