How to Pray When God Feels Absent

Something a little different this time. This episode is about Christian prayer, and about what to do when God feels absent. Tuppy is joined by Eliot for the first of what we hope will be a series of conversations on Christian themes built around a particular text.

The book is Beginning to Pray by Anthony Bloom, also published as School for Prayer. Bloom was a Russian émigré who trained as a doctor, served in the French Resistance, became a monk, and ended up as Metropolitan of the Russian Orthodox Church in Great Britain and Ireland. He writes on how to pray with an unusual bluntness, and he begins in the least promising place imaginable: feeling distant from God, praying and finding nobody there.

Bloom's answer to God's silence is that it can be a gift. If we are not in a state to meet Him, then His withdrawal spares us a judgement we could not survive. Absence is not the failure of the relationship. It is proof that there is one, since a God who could be summoned on demand would not be in a genuine relationship with us at all.

What we cover:

- The problem of absence, and why Bloom begins with prayer when God feels distant rather than with method
- Psalm 22, the cry from the cross, and praying from a sense of forsakenness
- Why half an hour morning and evening does not entitle us to God's presence
- Prayer as a genuine relationship with God rather than networking, and the rich young man who wanted the benefits
- Kallistos Ware on the peasant who sat and looked at God while God sat and looked at him
- Humility in prayer, and why pride is not only a sin but a falsehood about the world
- The publican and the Pharisee, and mercy that operates outside human justice
- Knocking at the door: how we are both outside the kingdom and carrying it within us
- Bloom's suspicion of the imagination in prayer, and what to make of his reading of Gregory of Nazianzus
- Icons as windows rather than barriers, and where Ignatian imaginative prayer sits in all this
- Set prayers and spontaneous prayer, short vocal prayers, and the Jesus Prayer in Orthodox prayer practice
- Whether a written prayer can be authentic, and why accessibility is not always a kindness
- Moses, the shepherd, the bowl of milk and the fox
- Theophan the Recluse on being as aware of God as of toothache

If your prayer life has gone quiet, or if spiritual growth feels like knocking at a door nobody answers, this conversation is for you.

We would like to know whether this format is worth continuing, so please leave a comment and tell us what you think, and what we should read next.

FaithWave is a prayer and devotional app for Christians who want to take Christian spirituality seriously: a large library of historic prayers read aloud, daily devotionals, guided abridgements of classic Christian texts, and a prayer finder to help you find the right prayer for the moment. Download it here: https://faithwave.app

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Examine Faith. My name is Tuppy Morrissey, and joining me today is Elliot Hearson for a special episode. We're going to do something a little bit different and look at the book Beginning to Pray by Anthony Bloom. So, Elliot, thank you for joining me. And would you just be able to introduce yourself to our listeners?

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Of course. Apies to any listeners for interrupting your uh regular uh broadcasting schedule. Um but we thought we would do this experimental conversation. So I uh founded, um, if that's not too grand a term, the app Faith Wave, which uh alongside uh liking and subscribing to Tuppy's channel, I would encourage you to um download uh at the end of this interview and subscribe or at least give a five-star review. And that is in uh in keeping with the aim of this podcast. So it is looking at faith in examined ways. There are lots of things on there. There's a a growing audio library, arguably the largest audio library of classic prayers in the world. Um, but uh it is not a contested category. And uh there are Tuppy's podcasts. There are uh there's a prayer finder to help you find appropriate prayers uh for the appropriate moment. Hopefully, as this is going out, there will be um lots of material on finding commentaries and making commentaries more accessible for scripture, and there's there's more to come. Um I also uh edit uh Tuppy's podcast. Uh not very well. The best that can be said for my editing skills is that uh I do I do my best. Um but uh we yeah, we wanted to experiment uh with having conversations focused on on particular themes and talking about those themes under the aspect of uh particular books.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Perfect. And so we're looking at Anthony Bloom's um short work, Beginning to Pray, like I said. Why did you want to focus on that? Because you introduced me to this work. Who was Anthony Bloom? What's this book? Why should anyone uh care about it?

SPEAKER_01 2:26

So Anthony Bloom was ultimately the archbishop um in charge of the Orthodox Church in Great Britain and Ireland, I believe. Um he was born in 1914, so shortly before the Russian Revolution, and prior to the Russian Revolution, he looked set to have a very comfortable life. His father was a diplomat um in Iran, I believe. And uh then along came the Russian Revolution, and they ended up living quite an impoverished existence in France. Um, he studied hard uh and became a doctor and then was involved in the French Resistance uh before uh joining the priesthood. He was a monk, um, I think tonsured shortly before the war, and then um eventually found his way to Britain. Um if you look at videos of him online and there are talks and interviews, you can you can get a sense for uh the man. He is quite forbidding, at the same time as being quite warm. Uh he speaks English as you would expect a Russian emigre to speak English, which is to say he has a kind of terse eloquence. Um the constructions of his sentences are correct and affecting, but unusual. Um sometimes he sounds as though though you are reading a translation. That's the effect you get in his uh in his book as well. Um to turn to his book. So he wrote a few books, mostly, not exclusively, but mostly uh focused on prayer in one way or another. Um and I first read this book a number of years ago. I was even more ignorant then of Orthodox theology than I am now, and I found it very novel, very moving in part, um very challenging. And so it was yeah, it was nice to have an opportunity to reread it, especially because um he deals with a topic that is important and com and a problem that it commonly afflicts us, which is uh absence, which is really what we're gonna be talking about today. But how how did you w find the book on your your first first reading?

SPEAKER_02 5:08

I liked what you said about um that sense that it's felt it felt translated even though it wasn't. Well, I assume he wrote this in English originally. I couldn't actually find that.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Um, I should sorry I should I should say for anyone who is looking to buy the book that it's published as uh beginning to pray or as uh the school for prayer.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Yeah, and um I I get what you mean about the the linguistic patterns. Um but I I totally agree that it's a novel um approach. You're sort of quite arrested by certain of his ideas. And I think that can take us into this idea of the absence of God, because Bloom starts with the problem of someone who is praying, trying to pray, and they just don't sense God's presence, uh, which I'm sure many of our listeners will understand as an experience. And you know, you get different solutions to this, but um, I think Bloom's is different because he actually says that we should be grateful for this absence. The the crux of his argument, as I understand it, is that God is absent. He withdraws from us because uh if he came into our presence, we would receive his condemnation. So we're not at that moment in a spiritual state uh in which we can confront him, in which we can meet him, um, because we would be we would be judged uh severely at that moment. So it's actually a a blessing in disguise, I guess you could call it a a gift that God is absent, which is not how we would often think about it. I mean, people might say, oh, you you know, you need to pray harder or you need to um change something in your life, um, which I guess is part of Bloom's understanding that repentance is required. Um, but I found that really helpful, that it's actually maybe a good thing, not a bad thing. So that was probably my main um takeaway from the early chapters of the book, at least.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Absolutely. I think uh he he treats the idea of meeting God and having a relationship with God Um very very seriously and more seriously than you find it talked about in many places, and it's precisely because of that that uh that absence needn't be such a a bad thing. Um but I think I think so. I think we should talk about what he means by by absence um and what and and discuss why he starts that. So he doesn't see this as the natural or the inevitable place from which you you pray. Um so he speaks to those who find God is absent, and we could talk a bit more about what absence means because he doesn't define it in in uh he doesn't define it closely, but he talks about the experience or the feeling of shouting up toward the sky and there being nothing, nothing there. Yeah. Sorry, carry on. And he sorry. No, no, I was gonna say, and the reason he starts with this is this is the the worst problem or the the most obvious problem you can have when you pray. So those who feel that God is close and that they are uh communing with God, uh don't have a problem. They don't need a book called Beginning to Pray. They have already made uh a beginning is when you feel that God is absent, that you need that you need a physician, and uh and that's what he he's trying to be. And and and he places himself as a physician, but also as a a fellow sufferer, um, as a a beginner leading beginners, he says.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Yes, I like how you summarized uh Bloom begins as a beginner teaching beginners um in your in your notes beforehand. Um and it reminded me, I I immediately was thinking of um Psalm 22, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And then that's obviously Jesus' cry in Matthew 27 on the cross. Um perhaps I'll veer off track a little bit here, but I was trying to wrap my head around that in terms of God's absence. What does that mean? Uh, because obviously it doesn't mean that Jesus was in a place where he would be condemned, um, but perhaps because he was receiving the the penalty of all our sins, he therefore couldn't encounter God in that moment, and therefore God felt absent. So I was trying to reconcile that with Bloom's argument. I don't know if you'd thought of that at all.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

I did, I did think of that. Um do you know the uh the Slovenian philosopher and um words Slavoj Žizek? Yes, yeah, yeah. So so he uh he writes about this um and he talks about it as being the the moment God became an atheist, and this being this the most radical thing about Christianity. Um and I I can't I and I think that his idea is that um the spirit enters the the church and uh and something to do with uh peace on earth, sort of a kind of uh post-Marxist idea of uh social solidarity and stuff being the true um result of this sort of death of God on the cross, as he sees it, which um is I think something people try to defend against this idea of Christ becoming an atheist or doubting or being uh separate from God in ways that seem as though they should be illegitimate. Um and so very often you say what people will say that what he is saying on the cross there when he says, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Is look at Psalm 22 and you'll see that what is happening here is a fulfillment of prophecy. You have the hands and feet nailed, the clothes being uh divided, surrounded by dogs. Um and I think that is clearly a part of uh what is going on. It like there is an allusion to the whole of Psalm 22 and to the fulfillment of prophecy. Um but I don't think that has to be uh the whole of what is um going on, and so what Psalm 22 at least shows is that you can pray from a position of a feeling of absence of God. Because we should say the absence of God is is subjective, and uh Bloom discussed like is very clear to emphasize that too. Um so you can pray from a sense that God is absent. Um and if you read Psalm 22, it is clear that that sense doesn't entail um a belief that God is absent, objectively speaking. It does not entail atheism. And I do think in in that in Christ on the cross uh he is sharing in in human suffering, and I think it is of a piece with other moments um of Christ's suffering in the in the build-up to the passion in the crucifixion, in the uh the sense of trepidation, the sense of having to do something against his sort of human desire to to live. Um and so I think that is the the ultimate moment of of absence we find in in scripture.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

Yeah, and a lot of this that we're discussing comes back to the idea of relationship, which you mentioned earlier, that Bloom presents our experience of and with God as a very, he calls it a live and real relationship. And that is something obviously that is expressed on the cross uh by Christ. And I like his line the fact that God can make himself present or can leave us with a sense of his absence is part of this live and real relationship. So as I understand it, the reality of absence in this subjective sense shows that it's actually a genuine relationship. So perhaps if you're if you don't experience God as absent at points, um the relationship might not be deep enough. Do you think that's uh a a justified conclusion to to reach that absence can be a sign of genuine faith, genuine relationship?

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yes. I think so. You do read uh sometimes I don't want to um uh condemn these things completely. You do sometimes read prayer advice that is much more that gives you sort of devices, techniques, and and things. Um and sometimes at their worst, they feel like uh almost like incantations or or um spells designed to summon God or summon the feeling that God is present. If you do this and this uh X many times a day, then um you'll call God into presence with you. And uh He does and later in the book Bloom does talk about methods for for prayer. Um but yeah, relationship is is fundamental, and the impossibility of um just uh forcing God um into um a relationship is uh a necessary part of that. Um and so uh and may yeah, maybe we need to talk about how he'd use prayer more, but he certainly he sees the fact that we often set aside a small portion of each day, even a relatively large portion, like uh you might think a relatively last large portion, like half an hour in the morning and half an hour in the evening, um to pray to God. He sees the he sees the expectation arising out of that that God should therefore be present to us when we so choose as being uh an injustice and it being uh unjust as people within a relationship to expect um to trap and to ensnare God within those unjust uh expectations.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Yeah, I'm just thinking if I spoke to my wife for half an hour in the morning and half an hour in the evening, she might not um be that present in my life or she might not uh return the favour um of conversation. Um so it's it's a helpful um analogy. And as you said, he gets on to this idea of time more um in the latter stages of the book. So you were saying that it's not this sort of manual of devices like other texts that are available, um, which can seem frustrating, but I think ultimately is so helpful because Bloom is encouraging a genuine desire for God Himself rather than a desire for the gifts that God can provide us. Um and I think that seems to be a huge part of his solution to uh the perceived absence of God is do you actually want God? Do you love God, or are you just looking for peace of mind or a job promotion or the blessing of children? All good things, but the the fundamental is that genuine loving, uh mutual loving relationship with God. So how do you think uh does Bloom explain how we can achieve that genuine relationship?

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Uh I think I think he he does. So I think so, first of all, you so you you put your finger on the thing that he wants to criticize, which is uh the fact that we so often um want something from God. Um one of one of the reasons I think it's in important to talk about prayer, um, probably particularly in our moment, uh, which in which lots of people coming to the church are coming from a secular background or from uh an only weekly Christian background, is that and not only people from these backgrounds, but uh there's very little talk given to sort of what prayer actually is, in a in a deep sense. And the prayer that people see, and it is a bit of a caricature of prayer, maybe in experience in in school assemblies, is uh often uh just the prayers of petition, which isn't again, I don't want to say that uh prayers of petition are bad. Um the the Lord's prayer includes is is full of petitions. Um but I think people sometimes have uh a negative sense of prayer as a consequence of that. They see it as almost um childish, uh maybe even uh selfish, and this this oh, I want something from God, I'll pray to this uh higher power and he'll do this thing for me. Um and I think in contrast, people do look at uh spiritual practices of the East that are um in the sort of culture at large in meditation, in the the in mindfulness, the death of the self, and they see those as being sort of deeper practices. Uh so I think I think it is incumbent upon uh churches and Christians to think and speak about prayer for that reason and to emphasize the the parts of prayer that um are not are not just asking for something, or to to to explain how those petitions fit into uh a wider Christian life. Um so yeah, I think he wants us to think of ourselves being with God as being in relationship with God, not as networking. Um networking events are horrible for the same reason. There's a a reduction of people to means and to uh uh usefulness. Um he doesn't want us to think of God in those terms, and he he talks about the centurion um in uh this oh no, sorry, he talks about the rich young man um in this regard. And uh he says um the problem with the rich young man is he is not prepared to give up his riches. He just wants something from God. He wants uh benefits, and not often the benefit that we're wanting, and this I think is a difficult thing, is not um it's not that we're praying for a nicer car or even praying for our car to be fixed. What we're really praying for, what we really want is another period of happiness. I I had this period of happiness, I'm now um somewhat down in the dunce for whatever reason. Maybe it's for because of some cause, maybe it's because of the natural fluctuations. Of our the moods in our life. And now we just want another period of happiness. And so often I think we are praying for something, even if it isn't something that's like a clear material benefit for us.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

I think that's so true. I hadn't really thought about that unexpressed, maybe unexpressed desire that we actually just want another period of peace or bliss, even if we don't recognize it. Were you going to say something else? Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

So this isn't in Bloom, but I have heard uh I've heard this in a few places. I've heard Callistos Ware, um, who was around uh in the Orthodox Church and at the same time as as Bloom. Um I like to believe they're friends, I don't know. Um but uh he he tells a story of a present of a peasant in France, um and he sits in the church for a long period of time each day, and the priest comes in and he sees him sitting in the church each day for long stretches of of time. And one day uh the priest says to him, Um you must have a great many things to ask God for. And the cousin says, That's not the peasant says, that's not what I'm I'm doing at all. The priest says, What are you doing? What do you do when you sit there for hours and hours at a time? And he says, I sit and look at God. And the priest says, What does God do? And he says, he sits and looks at me. And this was where he says that's the best definition of uh of prayer that he knows. Um and I think that is a definition I mean uh a kind of understanding of prayer that Bloom would uh accept. There is a there is an encounter, a genuine encounter, genuine relationship, um and uh a peace and stillness to to that. And I think that that's really what he wants us to try to try to come to find. Um but maybe we could go back to just a bit more about um absence um and why why it is that given that God is sometimes or sometimes gives us the gift of his absence by um by evading us or seeming to evade us.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Okay. Yeah, and then we can return to what you're discussing, which I think was uh on on the button. But perhaps we could discuss there's the example um of the Jew um who's asked about the uh the woman caught in adultery and sort of um what his response to that is. Does he identify with her, with um someone who's been confronted with their own sin by Christ? Um I love his response that he says, I feel I am the only Jew who would not have walked out, but who would have stoned the woman. I love the the honesty um there. And I think Bloom uses that example to say, you know, this guy is is very lucky that God is absent there. He's very blessed because if you have that attitude, the presence of God, you know, I've talked to you on a previous um episode about God as a consuming fire, um, you know, in relation to the epistle to the Hebrews. And we have to remember that an encounter with God can be a terrifying thing, and that happens throughout the the Gospels. Um, you know, Peter saying to Christ, what does he say? Um, you know, Lord, you know, do not deal with me out for I'm a sinner. I'm misquoting him, but there are examples. Lee Yeah, leave me alone. Leave me alone, yeah. Yeah. Um there are so many examples like that. So Bloom seems to be suggesting that that is a better um starting point, perhaps, actually, to think to be to be you even to be sort of wary of coming into to God's presence, not in an overly fearful way, but perhaps we've lost that fear of God that is um throughout the the scriptures, and to to regain some of that would be a helpful starting point in our uh in our prayer life.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Yes, there's uh there's a very shocking bit. I think just after the the story of uh the man who says he would be the only Jew uh who would not walk out and would stone him to death when he says and uh and he uses uh we he says we um would love to cover Christ's eyes and deal him blows. And um and and he says that we we do this whenever we uh follow um uh uh our passions such that they are um anathema to to Christ and to the gospels. And uh I d I have uh the the you know the the the classic uh image of the um hypocritical Catholic who sort of turns away Christ as they enter the the boudoir and um and they turn Christ literally to the war and yeah and I but I think we are all we are well I think we're all caught up in in in that in that and he frames the design in such a a brutal way that um it does make us uh grateful that we don't have to really confront the presence of God uh at times.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Yeah, and he suggests that we actually blind ourselves in that moment, don't we, rather than blinding God, which is obviously impossible. Um so we actually pay the price. Um and yeah, we not only do we not get anything out of it, we actually suffer as a result. Was there anything else you had on the theme of absence or or any you know advice for anyone listening? Um what can we learn from Bloom's study of the absence of God in prayer?

SPEAKER_01 28:46

I mean I mean my advice is to uh read Bloom on this, um but but I I I think to cultivate gratitude um for absence um and to interrogate uh ourselves and um our part in uh the relationship that we have with God is the I think probably the important first step in in coming to uh understand and and deal with with absence. Um the other the other side to to absence is um that he talks about is uh the notion maybe maybe it's a bit later, but then the notion of there being a a false self that we sometimes pretend present in order to which in turn uh frustrates uh our relationship with God. Um and so there can be no relationship because the the self that we are presenting um is false, and he gives an example in the context of absence, um when sometimes, oh God seems absent, but I still do all my prayers and I um am a good person, and and in quite uh a Pharisaic way, what we're really doing is we're saying um rather than dealing with the absence, we're saying I'm such a good person, I'm such a patient person that I can deal even with God. Um and it is a it is a way of uh um taking pride in our in our suffering rather than uh presenting ourselves honestly, and I and there are many ways that we are false and deceptive selves, but that is an interesting um example he gives that relates to absence.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Yeah, and it leads him on to his discussion of humility, which I think is really important in that context. And I think perhaps you were picking up on the um his use of the publican and the Pharisee or the tax collector and the Pharisee, um, which we find in Luke 18, and you know, the famous text of the Pharisee praying to God and saying, you know, I've done X, Y, Z, I'm fantastic, and then the publican beating his breast and um saying he that he is a sinner recognizing his own fallenness, and Christ says that he is the one who will go away um exalted, and he who exalts himself, the Pharisee, will be humbled. So Bloom has quite a lengthy discussion of what humility is, and I I didn't know this that it comes from humility comes from the Latin uh humus, um sorry I'm pronouncing it like it's uh the um chickpea chickpea dip dip but um hummus um meaning ground or he says fertile ground and so humility for bloom is that we must be um earthly, you know, we are at the bottom, we are ever present, um we are uh not beautiful, perhaps we could say. Um and what do you think what do you think humility isn't for Bloom? Because I think he talks quite a lot about that as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Um good. So to So what what humility isn't? So the opposite of humility is pride. Um and pride uh is the the mother of all other sins, just as and I don't want to uh be too punning here, just as humility is the the ground for virtue, uh pride is um is this mother of uh sin. Um pride is uh to uh have a regard for our own excellence and for our um the the outer reach of pride is to believe totally in our excellent self-sufficiency at the expense of God um and is to disregard disregard God entirely and to see ourselves as being uh responsible for good things we're we're so great we don't need God, we don't need anybody um else. Uh I will try to link this back to the Pharisee and the tax collector um uh or the publican uh at the end, but I think one of one of the problem with pride, um one of the problems with pride that isn't emphasized often is that it's false. It's a false view of the world. Um like you're you're not responsible for your beginning, you're not responsible for your continued being. Um you're a finite creature, all sorts of things are out of your control. Um your life will and could end at any moment. You could uh develop a blood clot, you could be run over by a car. The things you love about you love, the things you care about, um are not really yours. Um you cannot really possess them, they can be taken away from you, um, whether that's your your riches or your uh children or your parents. Um and you do not sustain, you are not the ground for being, you do not uh sustain uh being, you do not sustain um uh everything you you take for granted. And you are not the true originator of your gifts either. Um and humility is in in recognizing that pride is false, in recognizing that your your your station. Um and he's almost towers about it. In recognizing our weakness um or relative weakness, we can be like a a sail in the wind and recognize that all good things come from God, we can be a sail in the wind, but only if we recognize our weakness, only if we allow ourselves to to be a sail, if we try to put up a hard front, then the the ship can't go anywhere. Um in the context of the publican and the Pharisee, um it's the the publican who recognises that he is unworthy before God. Um and the and I think this we'll probably talk about this later, but Bloom imagines um uh he imagines a chain of thought in the in the publican which draws on his experience. And this isn't in the the uh gospel text itself, but he imagines the publican, who's basically, as I understand it, a tax collector, has um gone about uh uh doing mostly bad things in the world, in the um rough and tumble of uh the sort of low-life business world in which he operates. But occasionally he has seen and perhaps even performed for no uh good reason, that no reason that he can explain a good act. He's let someone off a debt, or he's let them have a longer payment period. He might even have experienced that himself, and he recognises through his humility that the only hope he has is for God to have mercy on him, to treat him in the same way. Um the Pharisee uh by contrast is um proud and he's proud of the way he stands within the walls of righteousness, and he sees reward as his uh natural dessert. Uh, because of course according to the the laws of of human justice, they probably are it probably is uh his his natural dessert, but he he lacks humility and he lacks the humility to recognize that in fact what he needs is God's mercy, which is um I don't want to say completely extrajudicial, but it operates outside the bounds of uh of human justice.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Yeah, that's super helpful. Um and yeah, it was it reminded me of my own experience, I think, when you said that self-sufficiency that before I became a Christian, I think it was that uh self-assurance that I I had um which m which kept me from God. You know, I I was not um in any way an atheist or uh anti-Christianity, I would have said um probably a prayer every night, but kind of the same prayer for my for my family. Um but I think I've I felt that I had certain gifts and a certain status, and I could lean on that, so I didn't need to think, okay, what is my true identity? And only when certain things were taken away was I confronted with uh that need for the relationship with God and my own weakness. Um but I think on the so we have one extreme being pride, and then the other extreme that Bloom also warns against is uh an excessive humility, which isn't really humility. And C.S. Lewis writes well about this as well, that it's not what does C. Lewis say, it's not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less. Um, and Bloom says, you know, you shouldn't think, you know, you shouldn't be sort of um whipping yourself and saying you're you know the worst sinner of all, you know, that that has its own pride uh within it. You're you're overly focused on yourself in that sense. But you do need to recognise that you are a sinner, and he he writes really excellently, I think, what we must start with if we wish to pray is the certainty that we are sinners in need of salvation, that we are cut off from God, and that we cannot live without him, and that all we can offer God is our desperate longing to be made such that God will receive us, receive us in repentance, receive us with mercy and with love, and says we then need to turn to him in worshipful adoration and just pray that we will be made capable of meeting him face to face. So it's that I think quite a delicate balance when it comes to humility, avoiding pride on both ends of the spectrum. Um Yeah, was there anything sorry for you?

SPEAKER_01 40:25

No, no, I I think I think that's the perfect quotation to um sum up that part with. Uh and that is I think one of the things that is uh great about Bloom in particular, I find it often um in uh orthodox writers is there is an attentiveness to the human condition and uh a psychological acuity that uh catches you um out often and uh and uh uh strikes you as putting into um words and uh making uh out of ideas, distinctions that just sort of uh evidently true. Um and I think this is a really good example of that, this part of the book.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

Yeah. And the Orthodox Church is often described as a kind of hospital. And I do think it in books like this you get that sense of a genuine pastoral concern for one's spiritual health. Um so we've discussed, I think, this key concept of the recognition of status, both our own status as uh unworthy, as sinful, but not sort of going over the top with that. And then on the other hand, the recognition of God's status um as what does he say, as king, we must surrender to him, we must be concerned with his will, even if we are not yet capable of fulfilling it. So, you know, if you if you're thinking about this question of how do I be humble, I think just as you said with that example um earlier from Callistos, where it's looking at God, not sort of being overly concerned with yourself, but actually looking at who God is. And the Lord Lord's prayer does that as well, doesn't it? You know, our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, that's all about God, and at the end, for thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever and ever. Amen. You know, there's there needs to be within prayer that gaze upon God, which I think Bloom teases out really wonderfully. Do you think we've covered enough for chapter one and we can look at knocking at the door, chapter two, or is there anything else you wanted to say?

SPEAKER_01 42:42

No, I think that's a good uh segue because there is um there there is a sense in which you you have to go in and he talks about that, and we'll I'm sure we'll talk about that in a moment. Um but the focus of of going in is always to to look outward, and we shouldn't be um deceived into thinking it is uh an introspective process.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Yeah. Exactly. He yeah, he warns against a sort of psychological introspection. We can get on to that. So chapter two is knocking at the door. Um why do you think Bloom uses that metaphor? What's going on there for you?

SPEAKER_01 43:25

Um so uh we it's taken from scripture, Christ is the door, um, for example. Uh but there has to be a recognition, um, and we can talk about this because there's a a subtle uh distinction made, but there has to be a recognition that there is um an important sense in which we are outside the kingdom. So on the one hand, the kingdom of God is within you, um, and it's like uh the yeast working through. But on the other hand, you need to be it's something uh to which you are striving. Um maybe you'd like I know you've uh thought about that a little bit, maybe you'd like to talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

Yeah, I think because uh at first when I was reading this, I noted down because he he says, you know, we are currently outside the kingdom, and then I just wrote down you know, it's a but the kingdom of God is within us. Christ says what bloom is wrong. Um how can he think that? And then of course we're at the next start of the next chapter, and he recognises that at the same time as being somehow outside the kingdom, we are also somehow within it, and he describes it as this gradual movement further and further in. Um, and I think those two things are true. You know, people speak of uh the kingdom God being sort of already here but not yet. Um, and that's a similar idea that in some way we are within the kingdom or the kingdom is within us, but of course we're not fully there. We don't see God face to face in that beatific vision that Aquinas describes. Um, and therefore there is this need for constant prayer, for a constant deepening of our relationship. Um so yeah, I mean personally, I think I probably uh relate more to the feeling of being of standing outside the door um knocking. Uh I think I probably do a lot of knocking, which I guess is a good thing. Um but I don't know about you, but I I think sometimes I find it harder to sense that the kingdom of God is within me. Um I think I probably uh more on the side of the publican uh than the Pharisee. I'm not trying to say that to crowd about my humility, but I think um I find it harder to to feel that I'm in the kingdom of God or it's within me.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

Um I I mean I mean maybe we're I don't know, maybe I'm too English to uh to to discuss these weighty matters. Um I I think that I quite often uh catch a sense um of of the a sort of rousing sense um of of uh the kingdom of God being within me, but that um as as Bloom describes, I think but as Bloom describes uh of of it being um uh located somewhere that you need to continue um following, like uh a scent that you need to uh continue following toward his its source. I think I think often with uh these kinds of topics, and this is true of God, and I would advise everyone to listen to your episode on um uh St. Dionysius with uh Thomas Plant, which very interesting episodes on uh the ineffability of God. I think um when talking about the kingdom and uh the psychological states, which we'll do in a moment in a bit more detail, of um uh coming to apprehend in some sense um God or approach him. Um and you see this in scripture in in the the sort of violent, uh confusing often imagery that's used. What is trying, we are trying to F the ineffable, we're trying to say um something that words were not designed to say and are not capable quite of saying. Um and I think so you need to be a charitable reader, um, and you need to recognize that I mean it's not unique to the the trying to talk about the precise movements of uh the soul or psyche is also the case that it's very hard to describe um how to ride a bicycle or catch a ball. Um and you you but you do recognize that there is the truth that is being spoken even if um uh it's hard to uh set down in words in a in in in an entirely satisfactory way.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

Yeah. Um I think I like that the analogy of it's hard to describe how to ride a bike or to catch a ball. Ums how perhaps there there is an intuition uh that we need to rediscover, and then perhaps you know a child might have more of this intuitive ability to uh turn to God um than an adult does.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Um Yeah, and I think I mean by that, you you kind of recognize the truth of what he's saying, even if he can't spell it out in an entirely rationally satisfactory way.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

Yeah. Yeah. So in terms of how we knock at the door, um you know, Bloom asks, where do we knock? Uh how do we knock? And I like his description, he says, it is not a journey into my own inwardness, it is a journey through my own self in order to emerge from the deepest level of self into the place where he is the point at which God and I meet. I mean that might sound a little bit abstract, but he also refers to St. John uh Chrysostom, who wrote, Find the door of your heart, you will discover it is the door of the kingdom of God. So we must be wary of um what Bloom describes as you know a psychoanalytical turning inward. This is not sort of um doing therapy uh on your own. Um it is to turn somehow inward so that you go through yourself uh to God. Do do you think do you think he explains clearly enough how how we do that? Because um I don't know, it's maybe easy to say you know we must turn inward in a in a very special way. Um, but how how do I actually do that?

SPEAKER_01 50:43

So I'm gonna speak quite incompetently on this. Please uh correct me in the comments. Um uh and most of what I uh I'm saying is half remembered from a book called Orthodox Psychotherapy. Oh, okay. Um which which is yeah, yeah. And and I think lurking in the uh the background here, and he doesn't want to say explicitly, is is um the orthodox notion of uh there being um powers of the soul, different uh faculties, uh kind of. So and he and what he's really talking about is the the nouse, um the what is sometimes called the eye of the heart, which is the uh but distinct from um reason um is the faculty by which we we understand God. And so uh he he wants us I I think what he's he's saying is that um we should and he will come to this in a minute, we should purify the heart, remove from the nouse um the things that pull it out of joint, the the passions that pull it out of joint, the images that pull it out of joint, the thoughts that pull it out of joint, and confront, like the man in the church, confront God uh directly from from that position. And when orthodox we sort of spoke about it, but when orthodoxy talks about it being a hospital for souls or whatever, I think primarily what it's referring to is um making sure that everything is ordered in its proper place and particularly that the the now can um uh can sit with with God in in that sense, can encounter God. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Um from what I took um out of Bloom's work, he seems to suggest that hitting rock bottom is maybe the easiest way to uh achieve that purification and that desperate longing for God.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

Um what do you mean by Sorry, so um so I saw that in the notes and I was going to so when when you say what do you think of when you say rock bottom in that um sense?

SPEAKER_02 53:13

I think I don't think he means, you know, uh in an earthly sense, um we've lost all our money and been kicked out of a house. Obviously that might lead to the type of rock bottom that he's saying, but I think it's um a spiritual poverty, a spiritual um groaning, and there's a real absence in your life, you know, perhaps confronting um your own mortality, your own sin, and being in a state of despair, um being, you know, like Christ on the the cross, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? I think that's how I understand rock bottom is you're you're you feel, even if it's not true, you feel that God is not there, that you can never um have a relationship with him, perhaps. Um and then Bloom suggests that that leads to more heartfelt prayers, um, and we are we become completely open before God. We don't hide ourselves as you were suggesting earlier. We're not trying to blind God, we just have to recognise, you know, this is who I am, and then also we come to recognise hopefully who God is. Um we don't have, he says, without trying to give him a shape or to imprison him in concepts and images, and we must knock at a door. So not having a false picture of God, but just this is me in all my weakness, and this is you in all your glory. That's how I understood this section.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

Yes, yeah, yes. So he does so he talks about um uh poverty and uh literal, I think, and um uh spiritual. So he talks about the requirement to to give uh all that you have and not to close like not to uh close your hand uh on a watch and not to close your um heart by um keeping things close to you that uh are not God by um and refusing to therefore allow him in. So yeah, yeah, I I um I th I think he does see that as essential, that that uh sense of um our condition being one of of genuine poverty, that um we can't really uh own these things, and by by being uh by trending trying to bind our valuables on earth, um, and they they can be monetary or or not, um those those things will by necessity remain bound in in heaven. So I think he does view um hitting rock bottom in that sense and letting go of them as essential.

SPEAKER_02 56:09

In terms of this um way in which we look at God without false uh images, I know you were reflecting on this idea of the imagination. And I was surprised, I told you uh beforehand, I was surprised when he says that we um shouldn't use a visible sign such as a crucifix or an icon because these place a barrier between ourselves and God. And he cites St. Gregory of Nasiansis, but we were a little bit um sceptical about how he's read um St. Gregory, uh the Cappadocian father there. Um and you know, Bloom, as we said, was an orthodox um archbishop, metropolitan. Um we might assume that he was a very keen user of icons in prayer. Um why do you think he m steers clear of that side of orthodoxy?

SPEAKER_01 57:03

Um a few so a few things on that. So he he I can't remember who it was who said uh that uh the greatness of a work of philosophy is inversely proportionate to uh its footnotes. Um and uh but yeah, Bloom uh he does cite Gregory of Nazianzus, but unhelpfully he doesn't uh tell us where he got it from, all the text he got it from, or or anything. So we have uh we have um struggled a bit to find out exactly what he was saying. I think really what he is trying to get. I think what he really wants to say there is that this tradition of um um mystical conceptless um uh prayer, or more mystical conceptless prayer, um, that's very uh popular in the East predates uh Pseudo-Dionysius. Um again, I recommend people look at your episode on that. Uh but he was writing the 5th and 6th century. I think he wants to show that from the fourth century there there are already um instructions to pray in this way. And and I did find um in Gregory of Natiansis things to that effect, although he doesn't explicitly name um crucifixes uh or icons and things. Um but he does say whatever your mind uh conceives can be put into language, but God exceeds both. And he's he warns people against even the names of God being misleading. So um spirit, light, fire, reason, um, water, they all bring with them a creaturely picture. Um, and that creaturely picture by necessity uh distorts God. So that is the the lineage he is um resting upon. Um I so I probably haven't read as much Bloom as I should, so I haven't read him on icons, for example, elsewhere. Uh but I think um in his so what what we should be clear about is he's talking about what goes on in our inner world during prayer and he's saying in the inner we shouldn't place via the imagination an object between us and God. There should be no mediating factor in that encounter. Um he he isn't talking about the outer, so having uh things around us. Um now we could have things around us and through them place a barrier between us and God. Uh but I think he would say um, and this is me uh rather than him, so take it with a pinch of salt. But I think he would say that um uh that's not inevitable, that icons are windows, they don't claim to present the essences. Um so an icon of Jesus isn't trying to present the essence of Jesus, um, it's trying to present the person of Jesus, and we can look through that um without placing it in the way to the to the essence of Jesus. Um you can see the suspicion of imagination in the tradition of icons. Imagination is uh bound by by tradition. Um it is the tradition of icon painting or writing um is uh suspicious of imagination, certainly thinks it can mislead people. Um and that's the danger of imagination in prayer, is that you end up uh praying to um something of your own devising, maybe even something that works according to your pride rather than than something else. It can um be misleading. Uh I he would also accept that icons and crucifixes can form I think the setting and the preparation for for prayers. Um But I think so I I was thinking about where what practices he would disapprove of. Um because I I by nature have a desire to sort of synthesize all these things, and um and I think there are practices he would disapprove of, but I think the disapproval is uh a bit narrow. So one that comes to mind is um a certain practice of ignition spirituality, where for example, you read the Bible in a prayerful way, it's meant as a kind of prayer, you imagine yourself in the biblical scene, you imagine the scene very vividly, um and then you in picturing yourself in the story, you might even encounter Jesus speaking to you and and things like that. Um an interesting thing to note is that Bloom, as we've already discussed, basically does this. So he says to us earlier, imagine yourself, where would you be? Would you be the Jew stoning the adulterous woman? Would you be the adulterous woman? So he does he does allow um he he's not totally talking against the imagination here, um but I think he would be very nervous of that kind of practice in in prayer, the the practice of uh imagining Jesus talking to you in in prayer like that, um, and would say that it uh is very liable to mislead you. Um and in truth, uh I think most practitioners of ignition spirituality would encourage would be concerned about the same thing and have lots of safeguards in place um to to prevent that. Uh but it is yeah, it is interesting the the line he tows here.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

So if we're avoiding to an extent the use of our imagination and we're we're looking at God, allowing him to look at us, we might we might think words don't play a part in Bloom's understanding of prayer, but we find out very clearly here that they do, and this you know is through chapter two and then um chapter three going inward. Um I think it would be helpful to discuss the three types of prayer that he outlines. Um he says we can use spontaneous prayer, which we've talked a little bit about already, and he suggests that that tends to come from this place of rock bottom or from profound joy. Then short vocal prayers, which are very short, extremely intense in their content and wide so that they contain as many meanings as possible. I wasn't quite sure that he then explained that. I was wondering if he meant things like the Jesus prayer in that case. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

Yes, yeah, so he does, he does, he does go on to to talk about that more later in the book. Um but uh he is he is uh he is talking about the Jesus prayer, he is talking about the um you the use of these as a method of of stilling the heart, as we've sort of alluded to before. Um and the Jesus prayer, so um, and he talks about this, uh is rich with um meaning it's sort of uh you've got um it emphasizes the majesty of God in Lord, um uh the humanity of God in Jesus, um uh the anointing of Jesus in as God's son in Christ. Um so Jesus, I should say, is uh Lord Jesus Christ, uh Son of God, uh have mercy on me, a sinner. Um and so includes the merciful pose as well. And um and I can't remember uh you might know better. Maybe it's in the Christ, there's a there's a sort of allusion to the spirit. But he he talks about um coming to uh learn each of these um multi this this sort of multitude of meanings that that fill up um this short prayer and then allowing the uh your conscious uh understanding of the meaning to sub to uh subside, but the meaning to remain your heart and to To keep on. I think I think that's what I'm getting at there.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:04

I should say this is a prayer. Because I think some people, particularly within the Anglican tradition, actually aren't that aware of the Jesus prayer from my experience. And it's a prayer used by many Eastern Orthodox Christians. And the idea is this notion of what Paul calls, you know, when he says pray without ceasing, you know, how can I pray without ceasing? Well, you could have this, I don't want to use the word mantra, this sure prayer uh which Elliot just um gave for us, and it becomes so internalized that you are essentially praying it without ceasing. And in its truest form, you know, there are certain breathing practices that can be used alongside it. And it's recommended within the Orthodox Church that you have some instruction in your use of the Jesus Prayer. I have used it myself a lot without any instruction, um basically through necessity not um finding anyone to teach me about it, but I I have found it very helpful, um, particularly in you know our modern busy world with the possibility of your score thoughts being scattered to ground yourself in those biblical truths is a simple but profound uh technique or um method of prayer. Um but thank you for clarifying. I wasn't sure if that's what he meant as that second type of prayer because I just found it hard to follow.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:36

Um he's very he's No, no, I I uh agree. And in your in your use of the Jesus prayer, I think is exactly what he wants um in in not just in not just with the Jesus prayer, but with uh prayers more generally to encourage, which is uh this uh constant effort um to focus on God to uh still the heart and as set against what he described earlier um in the book, which is that I set aside this period of time in the morning and this period of time in the evening, and that's when my praying happens. Um and yeah, so he's he is key to to promote prayer without see um without ceasing to Jesus' prayer and other means.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:25

Right. And so we've had spontaneous prayer, these short prayers, and then he talks about uh well, he says what one calls at times in a rather unpleasant way ready-made prayers. Um so I think you know, we would usually refer to these as set prayers, um, so you know, the Lord's prayer being the most obvious example of that. And I think it's is really interesting how he uh separates these three types, because in my own prayer life, I think I use spontaneous prayer the most um you know, first thing in the morning, uh throughout the day, um, but particularly before anything significant and uh at night. And I sort of thought, oh, that that's you know the proper thing to do, that I'm actually thinking, I'm well, what's important for the world, what's important in my own life, uh in the people, the lives of the people around me. And Bloom seems to be suggesting actually I should lean towards set prayers because these are um inspired by the Holy Spirit, they um have been you know verified as it were by church tradition, they've been um used in an effective manner uh for centuries perhaps, and there's yeah, no chance, well, there's less chance of my uh pronouncing theological falsehoods. Um so I I found it perhaps not convicting, but um definitely food for thought. Do I need to start learning a lot of uh set prayers as he recommends we we should, you know, from the Psalms he says those are um excellent prayers to be learning? Um or from you know, the the Book of Common Prayer, for example, uh in the Anglican tradition. So w w what do you think? Uh was this something that affected you, or did were you already a set prayer warrior?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:28

I so so it comes, I think, back to imagination and uh the fear that if we are not in a an exalted or very low but um very spiritual state, that we lie, fantasies um uh suggest themselves to us and we start to lie about uh who we are or make mistakes or or be led astray uh by by prayer. Um I I like set prayers very much, um, or ready-made prayers as he calls them. Uh probably for uh worse reasons. I've always felt that I'm I um I'm not very good at uh spontaneous prayer, often not very good at spontaneous prayer, um that the prayers I tried to conjure spontaneously, not always, but uh mostly are um unsatisfying. And I I like finding a set prayer that I like and praying it. Um and so so I I I found lots of parts of the book I find challenging. That part I I find uh reassuring.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:44

That's why you've uh set up faith way where there are many, sorry, many set prayers available.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:50

Find a set prayer for any time of day, you can save them to your favourites. Um but no, so I I I find that I find that reassuring because what you what you get in um other traditions often are um is is the sense that there's a kind of inauthenticity to saying ready-made prayers rather than than your own prayer. Um and I don't think I think fundamentally that isn't the case. I think um I think uh to if you to put it in another context, if you uh read a poem and it is true in the way a bell rings truly, then I don't think that you're um learning that poem uh by heart, and and heart is used, I think, correctly there. Like you you commit it to heart, um the poem, not just to memory. I don't think there's a kind of inauthenticity in in saying the poem. Um and there are some Hopkins poems that I say as as prayers in in that way. And I find, for example, and I I I find that often a much more uh satisfying and authentic expression of what I want to say than whatever uh drivel I would come out with on the spot if um if I didn't have that to to hand.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:10

Yeah. And yeah, it's kind of like an extreme Protestantism, isn't it? This, you know, I must come up with my own prayers, church tradition, bad, you know, personal relationship with Jesus is good. Um which obviously is is you know it is true that a personal relationship with Jesus is is the the prime matter, but um yeah, we I think you know there is such value in set prayers.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:37

I I so this is something he doesn't talk about, but is a a kind of um uh and is the kind of technique we discussed at the beginning that he doesn't talk about perhaps. But um uh there there are formulae to um to devising prayers and there are there are traditions or norms and I think like a halfway house is to um become very familiar with those and to to have those as uh scaffolding to to your prayer so that you can um particularise things for for yourself. But I mean he he doesn't he doesn't talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:20

But and another thing I was uh considering to well, two things about spontaneous prayer. I think firstly it can lead to overanalysis that you're trying to find. Well, Bloom writes, yeah, we must not try to find extraordinary words, you know, words that will somehow be on the level of God. We can overanalyse, try to make our prayers perfect, and that actually is an obstacle to genuine or at least to effective prayer. And secondly, I think from my own experience, um, pride is more of an issue in spontaneous prayer, perhaps the opposite of what you were saying. I sometimes find, you know, if I'm praying with my wife, I guess it's the end of the prayer and think, oh yeah, that was that was a good prayer. And she'll and she'll say, and and often it's the same time she'll say, Thanks, Tuppy, that was a really um really good prayer. And it's when I've thought it's a great prayer, so then it's sort of vindicates. Yeah, yeah. Um and that's not really the idea of prayer. Um perhaps because I like sort of uh creative writing, I'm sort of thinking it of it as this artistic construct, uh, which is not um what we should be doing. So with with set prayers, you know, if I pray the the Lord's prayer, I I never think, oh yeah, great prayer, Tuppy.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:37

Um I I I I'm gonna push back on some of that slightly. Um so I I I think there's probably I mean it's not without dangers, but we can't we can't live without dangers. Um but I think writing writing uh is probably less dangerous um because you have just more more time than than in spontaneous prayer. Um you can be more careful and more considered. And I don't think the the obviously you can have an inappropriate relationship with uh a prayer just as you can with an icon, for instance. Um but the the I think when he says that we we shouldn't try to find extraordinary words, what he means is that we um we shouldn't try too hard to be sort of too exalted and too um uh to overreach our what we are and our abilities, um we should nevertheless find things that are worthy of us. Um and so yeah if you uh divide if you are writing a prayer, if you um pray deeply and uh read carefully and read the and and uh set things down and uh take uh close interest in whether they express what you really mean and what you really want to express, um then I think well you could there are beautiful prayers. Christina Rossetti's prayers available on the Faithwave app are beautiful and she sat down and wrote them. And I don't think she was uh she was wrong to do so, nor do I think that Bloom would say she was wrong to do so. Um and I think their beauty certainly don't think their beauty detracts from them. Um but yeah, I I don't know. I think a good point.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:42

I guess it's the heart posture towards them at the end. Um if Rossetti's writing Well, you know, you can take pride you can take pride in your work, but um you know ultimately they have to be uh directed towards God who is infinitely greater than the work uh or than her own mind. Um but yeah, it's a good point. It's a good point. So I'll continue to think about my prayers. Um and I mean there's not too much else that I wanted to discuss, but perhaps in our choice of prayer, Bloom has some interesting uh things to say. He says it must be a prayer that makes sense to us and a prayer which does not make us uneasy. And he he's very uh insistent on this fact that we need to choose a prayer that we can really commit to, we can put all our attention on it, we're not sort of umming and eyeing about some of the things expressed there, and we have a conviction when we when we say it. And I think that is fantastic advice. If you're if you're reading a prayer and you sort of disagree with the the theological um stance expressed, then that is going to definitely be a barrier between you and God. Um did you have anything you wanted to reflect on in terms of how we choose prayers, you know, particularly given the context of Faith Wave and um the set prayers that you're offering?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:14

Uh yes. So I th I think I think we should draw a distinction between uh prayers that are um so I can't remember exactly what Bloom says in this regard, but um I think I think there are sometimes prayers that are challenging, difficult, um that we need to sit with maybe before praying for a little while before we can uh pray them uh properly. But that that study is probably an important part of making ourselves adequate to the prayer as well as the prayers adequate to to us. Um but yeah, there are you shouldn't pray a prayer that you you disagree with. I think the prayer being adequate to us is um a very important thing. And then there are there are two there are different ways of um making mistakes when it comes to this. So I th I I think on on the one hand you have um uh a very detrimental doctrine of accessibility um and a strong desire to make things accessible, which often means making things that are unworthy of people so that um uh no one can it reminds me there's a debate, I don't know if you recall, there was a debate in English poetry um with uh between sort of Caroline Duffy and the late great uh Jeffrey Hill. And well you can tell uh whose side I was on.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:05

But uh I don't like Caroline Ducky as uh spine.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:10

But uh she so she was saying no poetry should be like should be easy, it should be like text messaging. And he said, I mean poetry is is maybe difficult sometimes to um a point of fault, but his point was that the human being is difficult, but life is is difficult, and that if poetry is to be adequate to the human being and to life as an expression that it must be um it must be difficult and it shouldn't strive for accessibility if if what that means is is text messaging. And I I have been um in uh and I think the Church of England is actually particularly prone to this uh error. Um I've been in Church of England services when and I don't I'm I wish I were not telling the truth when I'd been uh made to sing hymns, which are kind of prayer to uh to the tune of uh old MacDonald and with uh words that were not um any more um I don't know, exalted than that. And and yes, I I felt embarrassed uh to be offering that to God. I think that the same good I wouldn't I wouldn't encourage my children to pray in that way. I think that this wasn't a children's service, by the way. Um I think it was embarrassing, it should have been embarrassing for everyone involved because I think they're worth a better prayer than that. Um and I mean you can the the examples in the Church of England of of that kind of thing are legion. Um on the other hand, uh there is a kind of snobbery that that can can creep in where you think everything needs to be just so, it needs to be um it needs to be perfect. You can and I was thinking about this in the context of uh icon uh writers who I've read and heard and and they're you can um you get very finely wrought icons. We also have a tradition of uh folk icons. And I I find the folk icons, although less uh sophisticated, um in in the the artistry, are often very affecting, and they certainly those those kinds of things shouldn't be looked down upon because we should be offering what's adequate to God, but not necessarily trying to reach further. And if it's adequate to us, then it will be adequate to God. And there's a beautiful story that Bloon uses to uh illustrate this, which I hadn't I hadn't heard uh before I read this book. Um, and it's a story about Moses in uh Hebrew folklore, and he is in the desert with uh a shepherd, and he helps him with his work for a little while, and he sees the shepherd going out in the evening, each evening, and placing a little bowl of uh milk a short distance away. And so he says to the simple shepherd, um, What what are you doing? And he says, I every evening I go out and I leave this milk for God. I always take the best milk and I offer it to God. And Moses, sophisticated, learned, uh says, Does God drink it? And the shepherd says, Yes. Every night he takes my my milk and he drinks it. And Moses scoffs at him and he says, God is spirit, God can't uh can't drink this milk. Um and so they argue, and one night the shepherd, uh hoping to prove Moses wrong, uh probably hides and he sees a little fox come along and uh drink the milk, and he is uh downcast when Moses finds him and he uh when he returns. Um and Moses says to him, But you should come on, you should be pleased to know you've become more sophisticated, more like me. You should be pleased to know uh more about God's ways. Um and the shepherd is distraught. He says, The only uh the only thing I could do, the only way I knew how to show my love for God is gone. I've got nothing. And um when Moses goes back to the desert, God speaks to him and he says to him, God, uh Moses, I am uh pure spirit, uh, but nevertheless I always accept the uh the gift from this humble shepherd. Um since I am pure spirit, though, I shared it with this little fox who is exceedingly fond of milk. And I think that is a a lovely story that he tells. And and I think it's a good warning to, especially in the context of a podcast like Examined Faith or an app like Faith Wave, um, not to try to be too proud of being uh sophisticated or of um uh to or trying to be sort of too learned or of um uh looking down on on uh on prayers or offerings to God that uh you think are beneath you.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:21

Yeah, I think that's very good advice. I find that true in the context of music as well. Obviously the the lyrics are kind of prayer, and I can definitely sometimes be um have that attitude of scorn um if I think the lyrics are a twee and um not very sophisticated, you know, which isn't always wrong. As you said, some songs or some yeah, some prayers are not quite adequate for us, but um often they are actually someone's heartfelt expression of their relationship with God, and that should be commended.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:58

And I well I think yeah, I mean I if I could add to that, uh I so I think I don't know. I would I want to say heartfelt isn't enough. Um maybe that's me being too literary. I'm saying um I want to say no, you are worth more than that. Like uh you like um even good poets, even bad poets have good intentions, and I want to I do want to say to to sometimes like no, you'll you I I know that you mean it, I don't doubt with sincerity, but you could do better. And I I I don't know, it's a narrow course that one has to tread on these things, but um uh I mean this is almost a Nietzschean point, um, but uh too too much um uh sympathy um in that kind of context does ultimately rob people of a degree of their humanity. I think you want to um I encourage them further.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:00

Yeah, yeah, no, you're right. Heart uh heartfelt posture is is not enough. There has to be truth uh as well. Um otherwise it just becomes yeah an emotional exercise.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:11

So I I I think yeah, so this is almost uh but you're like people you are called to love God with all your heart and soul and mind, and I I want to resist attempts that I think are sometimes made to um uh leave out parts of that uh and to make um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:36

Yeah. Okay. Sorry, were you saying something else or no?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:41

I was probably just gonna carry on around and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:44

Well, we'll get back on topic. Is there anything else you wanted to take away from Bloom today, or do you think we've explained these first few chapters sufficiently?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:54

I hope I hope we've discussed I hope um we've discussed what he says about absence and how to um approach it as a as a problem, and through that how to approach uh begin approaching a life of prayer. Um uh I one one quotation that uh he includes which is from Theophana Recluse, which I do think uh uh characterizes how he thinks uh the position God and fresh have in our life is that he thinks the awareness of God uh should be with you as clearly as toothache, which is uh is nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:38

Yeah, I did think that was a very apt comparison to make. Excellent. So if you've enjoyed our discussion, please leave us uh a comment, like the video, subscribe to the Examine Faith channel because we're exploring, as we said, whether uh such thematic discussions could be helpful to people, engaging. So please give us your your feedback. But Elia, I certainly have enjoyed our discussion today. I hope our listeners have too. It's been a pleasure speaking with you. And yeah, God bless uh Faithwave and all its ministry.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:18

God bless uh you and all our listeners. Please do uh leave any suggestions in the comment and in the comments. And yes, I've I've enjoyed our discussion. I enjoyed preparing for it and rereading the book a lot as well. It is a great book. So if nothing else, go and uh go and read that. You won't be disappointed.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:34

Yeah. I would second that recommendation. Great. Thanks, Elliot. Speak soon. Bye.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:39

Bye bye, Tabit.