We Fall into the Manosphere

Join us on this moody Friday night for a chat about Into the Manosphere, where we also manage to mangle some of their social media handles. 

Bottoms up ladies, we're going in.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You are listening to Rage on the Rocks, where we unpack the things that make us want to roll our eyes, pour a drink, and scream into the void at the same time. I'm Sarah. I'm Lauren. And tonight's Rage, ooh, it's a juicy one. We are talking manosphere, that dark little corner of the internet where self-declared alpha males have reinvented masculinity. Apparently, by yelling on podcasts, selling questionable financial advice, and reducing women to nothing more than their looks. But before we dive in to that ego-filled circuit, Lauren, what are you drinking?

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Well, I think it's important to note that this week there are some rocks in our drinks. There is some ice in our drinks. Finally, yes. Tinkle tinkle tinkle. We are drinking uh Kyoto Distillery uh Kenobi Gin. Amazing. Tonic for me, soda for you. Little bit of, you know, citrusy goodness on a Friday afternoon while we deconstruct toxic masculinity.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

It is, and we are coming to you from Charlie's in Darwin, owned by the beautiful Beck Bullen, who has so kindly lent us her space this afternoon. And I must say, I don't know, it's a very Sarah's feeling the vibe. I'm feeling the vibe because I wasn't when I walked in, but I did see Lauren and she lit me up, filled my cup, and now I've got the vibes, I've got my gin, and I'm ready to rage. We need to feel the vibes because um Sarah may have been made to cup her hands in a bowl this week.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Give to Gain, give to Gain.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Show us your begging bowls. It's true, and look, look, I was in the thick of perimenopausal insomnia uh and getting a cold, and it was my birthday actually as well. So I've had bitter birthdays, I've got to say. Um we're celebrating tonight. We're celebrating tonight. That's it. And sometimes you need that little bowl so your tears can flow freely into something. We really do.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

So I think like a lot of other people we have watched into the mana sphere, Louis Thoreau. I mean, I'm a massive fan of his anyway. Very intelligent, and usually, I don't know, that he just builds this trusting relationship with people that they just kind of walk into a million holes of their own making. Do you think?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Yeah, he does. I think his magic is in the silence and the single questions, the gentle challenge, and that's all he does. There is no argument, there isn't. And and what I love about his questions as well is there doesn't seem to be a lot of judgment attached. It's just a question. Tell us why, you know, tell us what you're thinking.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Or in Sarah's language, tell us more about that.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Tell us more about that. It's the therapist's voice.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

It's also very helpful that apparently lots of influencers in the manosphere don't do a lot of research. I know. Because had they have done a bit of research, they might have seen some of the former work of Louis Thoreau.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Uh which has been exceptional. And you're right, if they had done the research, they would have realized that he was asking them these questions for a reason. He, you know, likes to explore the deepest, darkest depths of our society. So full on them, really, I say. But look, you know what? HS Tiki Toki. Oh, what a horrendous person. One of the first things I thought of was really it was quite an indictment on the uh education system that's sitting out there. Uh the fact that these people, I mean, HS Tiki-Tockie claimed to go to university, so he obviously has some sort of brain in his head, but what he didn't have was a moral compass.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

That's how I feel. Oh gosh, I've been actually waiting to get into this all week long. And my social media feed is full of pe other people's reactions to it, so I've been trying not to watch too many of those because I knew we would want to have our own reactions to it. But you know, I watched it and my eyes continue to roll so far back into my head that I'm sure I was just staring at my brain by the end of it. It was just it was just kind of gross. Um, yeah, it was just kind of gross, and I think it just so hypocritical, and you just don't know how much of their own bullshit they actually believe, and how much of it is just to make money. And I think most of it's actually to make money. I I don't believe that these fellas believe their own bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

No, I I actually I agree with you 100%, and the giveaway for me was how quickly they crumbled. They were so fragile. One little question, one small challenge from Louis, or an extended little silence where they actually had to have a moment where they weren't content script streaming, as that HS Tiki Toki's doing 24-7, to have a moment of silence to kind of have this reflection on what they're doing. And they crumble. They got all self-defensive, and then afterwards, when they weren't in the same room as him, they went after him on social media.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Yeah, which was interesting in of itself. So I I found this really interesting. You told me just before, maybe that maybe it's about an hour and 30 minutes long. It's a think full-length doco for for Netflix, which is the first one of that length, potentially, I think Louis is done. Interestingly, in that hour and a half or however long it is, you've got about five different influences. And one of those influencers in particular, Myron Gaines, not his real name, but Myron Gaines, has seems to have spent an awful lot of hours online ranting about Louis. And my first message would be like that is the perfect way to demonstrate that you have absolutely zero debating skills if it takes you seven hours plus a lot of follow-up stories to try and trash Louis when he's literally simply put you on TV for a fifth of an hour and a half. You know, maybe you just need to polish your talking points a little bit, Myron.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

He was disgusting. He was by far the worst, in my opinion. But on that, our mate HS Tiki Toki said something interesting, and he talked about it.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

It wasn't the bit where he uh said he didn't want juice bar mummy.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

No, not that bit.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

No. No, there are so many gross things. Well, I mean, seriously, these oh, anyway. He had said that he profits really from an attention economy. And this is that piece about needing to constantly stream all the time to capture to capture people and keep them online in order to then it is like a brainwashing, isn't it? In then order to win them over, and then you can make money from people. By selling them pretty much whatever you want. Whatever you want.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Dodgy financial schemes where people are losing money and they still take a cut from it. And they live, they go to sleep at night and live with this. I do not understand.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

There's a certain type of just ability to compartmentalize what they're doing that I found really fascinating, like psychologically fascinating. There's so much I wanted to delve into today, but they pretend they don't understand that they're creating content essentially for 14, 15-year-old boys, at the same time as making a huge amount of money out of their audience. So I I refuse to believe they don't understand who their audience is. They just justify doing it by pretending that it's not for 14, 15-year-old boys, but they know it is, they know they're making money off it. They want traditional relationships, they want women who are traditional, and yet they are absolutely making money off the sex work of women that they call disgusting and humiliating. They are making money off it. That is a symbiotic relationship, which is fascinating. And I think Louie touched on that and tried to call that out. That was the conversation where I think it was H H H S Tiki Toki got very defensive about being compared to Bonnie Blue and being asked what the difference was. It it really is that compartmentalism of saying that is not me, and yet I'm quite happy to take the money from platforming these women that I'm telling you are disgusting.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yeah, look, and he hides it under I'm a businessman, there's that. The other point is it's it's obviously deeply gendered, right? So it's not okay for her to do that. She's a horrible person for doing that, according to him. It's but it's also, and this was certainly true of the other men, it's also okay for them to sleep around with whoever they want to. It's not okay for women to do that. So you're right in that they want these, they they profess to want these uh traditional values, and then they'll say things like the one-way monogamy piece, where I get to sleep with whoever I want, but she doesn't, and she doesn't want to because when she falls in love with me, she only wants to be with me. Multiple wives. And women don't know what they want, so we have to tell them what the fuck. That was like that was the point for me. I'm like, oh boy. And the thing is, a lot of them, like your your mate, I'll say your mate, HS Tiki Toggy, he's 23. He is basically a sperm. He has experienced no life whatsoever. And he has an entourage of people cutting clips for him all the time, sorting out his dodgy business dealings. I am just astounded. Like there's a part of me that's kind of quietly impressed at his business skills to go from nothing to that, yeah, and the other part of me that's deeply disgusted because he's doing it by taking advantage of vulnerable people.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Absolutely, and it is influencing a whole generation of young men. We know this, we touched on this last week. It's it is influencing a whole generation of young men. Again, the things that resonated with me that I've been thinking about a lot since watching it is this idea that they are perpetuating this idea of one-way monogamy because I'm so impressive that I'm gonna just provide for my woman, and ultimately what it is is about control and having a woman for want of a better term, because that's the way they talk. I want my woman, my missus to not question me because then I won't be exposed for how deeply flawed a human I am. That's why they're showing off what they perceive to be their money, their house, their impressive car, whether or not they own those things or not, which was, you know, again, heavily questioned throughout the whole documentary. It it's this idea of if I can keep someone on the hook because I am well off, or I give this perception of wealth, then I can have them in some kind of control relationship where no one questions me. And that's the ultimate goal, I think. Which is a shame because you just think underneath all of that, you're you're just not that attractive a person. Well, they're not, and I don't mean that in the physical way. I'm not like I'm not going down the same route that they are. It's just this, like, yeah, no shit, she's with you for your Lambeau. She's certainly not with you for your fing personality, is she? And that's the real shame about the whole thing, is like you're going down this route where you're just saying, I am my things. I'm my things, and I am my control of my woman.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

But here's my question for you when you bring up this sort of superficialness, and that's what struck me about the men and the women on the Doco is there was nothing more than skin deep stuff. It was all about how you look. So for men, it's the big muscles, for women, it's the big tits. Hate to use that word, sorry, I'm gonna get a little bit crude here, but that's essentially their language. Uh, and it's about, you know, the perfect face and the bikini body. Uh, for men, it's also about the amount of money that you make and the power, right? Yeah. There's nothing beneath the surface. Question I have for you is has it always been like that for them? Is that how they really are? Or is this about I have stumbled upon a winning formula to make money, so I will go with this?

SPEAKER_01 13:17

It's a very good question. And again, it was something that was touched on around their own father figures or their own parental figures in their life, which was particularly interesting with say H I I keep stumbling on his name, HS Tiggy Tocky, it just sounds so ridiculous. It is ridiculous. But you know, touched on uh his mum was clearly not approving of his lifestyle choices or his attitudes in some ways, but is clearly turning a bit of a blind eye to it because he's all over the internet, so if she wanted to know what he was saying, she could find out. So I think there's an element of you are the environment you grew up in to some degree. That doesn't mean you can't change your life and take a very different route in life, but that they see themselves as breaking some sort of cycle, I guess. It's making quick money, it's instant gratification. I'm gonna show that I can be successful anyway, and this is a way to make quick money. Only fans, a way to make quick money. If you can get in that top creator sphere, you are making massive money very quickly. And it might be only for a period of time, because hey guys, you're gonna age too. And then what? Oh no. But they think that by the time that happens, they'll have kids that they've already provided for who will go on to lead very different lives to them.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

I actually don't know if they've thought that far ahead.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

I didn't know they have. Some of them talked about it, some of them talked about their kids will be happy and have all their needs taken care of.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

I don't know if they've thought that much in detail about it. The other point, as you were talking, thinking about HS Tiki Toki and his mum being there, was as soon as Louis bought up the charges that he had run away from in the UK. So he was on the run for a year after this car accident that came out. Dumbest thing to go in the documentary. Yeah, I know. I was thinking the same thing, it's not very smart. But his mum jumped in to rescue him from that very awkward situation because they both got their backs up really quickly. You know, you shouldn't be talking about this. So, what that also says to me, now there could be a bit of, we don't talk about this because of the legal aspect of it. I understand that piece. However, there was no sense of the mum shepherding his moral compass in that way. Like she has turned up in this place that's outside the UK as well, where he is on the run, and she's completely fine with that. She knows that. Her biggest thing was don't embarrass me. Exactly. She's a piece of work herself, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:58

I I don't know. I mean, she seemed embarrassed, but it it takes more than embarrassment at that point. At that point, surely as a parent, I don't know, I mean, hypothetically, as a parent, maybe you think maybe Louie, being from the UK, you presumably know who Louis is. Maybe Louis going to document my son's adventures might actually bring some of the accountability that he needs in his life to make some good choices. Oh, you are a generous person. But that doesn't seem like that doesn't seem like what it was. But you would have thought, you know, maybe if that had been you in that position, maybe you'd think, hopefully, this is the thing that that cracks it. But interestingly, they've all just gone on like massive rants since they've been exposed, and they've been exposed in ways that they're not used to, right? They they live a life of overexposure all the time to their audiences who love and adore them, whether they are potentially committing hate crimes on camera or not, will still love and adore them and give them money and potentially follow their footsteps. And yet they were exposed to a whole broader world out there who actually is not okay with what they're doing, what they're saying, and now they're on the defense.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Yeah, and that's that's the interesting piece, isn't it? What really stood out to me was how much they all just surround themselves with people who confirm their own thoughts, beliefs, and how amazing they are. One piece that stuck out to me was was it Myron Gaines? Myron? Myron, yes. Oh, horrible. But the podcast that he had, and there were Fresh and Fit. Oh, Fresh and Fit. It's where did they get that name? Like that is the most inappropriate name.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

I I did think about listening to one of the episodes before this podcast, but then I realised it was two hours and 16 minutes, and I went, nah. I mean, life's too short to listen to that shit for the amount of time they want to sprout it.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Absolutely. Seriously.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

They should be listening to us.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

That's right. At least we're like 30 minutes and you're gonna be able to do that. Exactly, and then dumb. Seriously. But this podcast, a group of you know, women influencers and others were there. There must have been about what, seven, eight of them or something on this panel. And the whole thing was just the men doing their very best to make them look stupid. And the shocking part to me was the women were putting up with it and they were there because they make money. Yeah, it must be. Well, they do. So this is that transactional kind of piece.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Absolutely transactional. They get platformed to this audience, they get humiliated for sure, but you can't tell me that a good proportion of that audience isn't then going to check out what they look like on OnlyFans or on their Instagram accounts. Like that is the trade-off. If I let him humiliate me, some of those people are gonna come over, and it's that real weird thing that happens in the world. This the this hate thing, right? Where men will go, well, I hate these women, but I'm gonna go and engage in, you know, I unless be really if we're being really crude about it. Like, I'm happy to go and you know, whack off to her OnlyFans, but that's all she's good for. And she's gross. Yep. You know, like that's it. But there's a whole element there of the money comes through. Money comes through. It's transactional. What would possess you to want to live that kind of life? And that's not to shame that's not to shame the women doing sex work. No shame here, no judgment at all. I just I ask what possesses people to be part of this transactional arrangement with these horrible men who were just learning really to hate women. And it I read a book not that long ago, it was about AI and women, and it talked about this whole new industry really uh in AI and sex, which is dolls. Obviously, that dolls have been around for a while, but now we're talking like robotic, very lifelike, and they are in some of the brothels in Europe, and some of the things that people do to those robots, and this idea that it's kind of justified by the people producing them as well, here's a way for people to get out all of those violent, awful, hateful fantasies. But the problem is that at some point it still turns to real people in real relationships as people seek more and more thrill, more and more dopamine, more and more whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

And the question is, would it have been expressed at all if there wasn't that avenue? Yeah. So it it's possible that it wouldn't have been expressed. And actually, the option brings it out, normalizes it, and from normalizing, what happens then? You you're ready to push the limits and do something more extreme from there.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

And more exciting if that's your thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Yeah, exactly. And the same thing. That's the frame you're looking at it through. The same with the Manosphere stuff. 100%. Because they're working in this attention economy where it's all about just farming engagement, they have to go more and more and more extreme to be heard over the noise because there's more of them. Because what young man doesn't want to make millions of dollars, particularly when they're looking at these influencers, telling them this is how you get a Rolex, this is how you drive a Lambo, this is, you know, and they find that appealing. Plus, they're also selling the other side of it, which is the fear. Telling young men, women are born with value because they're good looking. Men are not born with value, they need to earn it.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

And don't be a loser.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Don't be a loser. And the way you're not a loser is through money and power. And and screwing lots of girls.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

And pretending that women didn't invent anything. Other than maybe like the Wi-Fi, Justin, that you are putting all your content out over. And a bunch of other stuff. Obviously. Just why like they are so far up their own asses.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

He was insidious though, because he looked the most normal and he spoke the most normal. Yeah. So the others, you kind of went, you're a bit of a tosser, you know, looking at sure. Yeah, yeah. This guy, I don't know. But you know what? His mouth let him down. If he talked too much, you know, that's when you knew, oh, that's right, I remember who this person is. So yeah, oh, he was a piece of work. It was very disappointing.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

It was a great documentary, but yeah, it was very disappointing to just be reminded yet again of the stuff that is attracting so many eyeballs.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Yeah, and there was an interview there with a couple of young men who listen to the influences, and that was interesting because the way their take-home stuff wasn't about the hatred, wasn't about the women. What they took home was I need to get up and I need to keep earning, I need to. And one of them described how it bought him out of homelessness, depression, and despair. So people, there are young men out there actually getting good things from this. I wonder what the tipping point actually is though. Does he feel like he has to treat women as second-class citizens in order to have those things? Or can he just take the good from it and still be a good person?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

And imagine if one of those influences was like, I can give that to someone without doing all the bullshit. And it you I hadn't picked up on that really, but yes, it's like the David Goggins effect as well. You know, he's the he's the Navy SEAL or the ex-Navy SEAL who's like, go hard, and then you have a whole new generation of young men who are deciding they're gonna go running every day and they're gonna do this every day, and they're gonna go hard and they're gonna change their lives. And there's for some people it's amazing and life-changing. Would I recommend it to people? No. Are there problematic elements to what he says and does? Yes, occasionally, absolutely. But yes, you're right. So, how do we take the good stuff and leave all the bullshit and remind these influencers that there's actually so much more value to them personally as well as professionally?

SPEAKER_00 24:51

And actually being a positive influence. But we are back to the attention economy. And what are human brains attracted to? Tragedy, devastation, enemy, threat, danger. I'm tired. We all sorry, I'm you know, have a sip, have a sip of your drink, it's an important part. But that's the piece. So this for me is lazy business. Yeah. They are lazy because they could do that stuff, but they choose to go with the sensationalism, with the creating danger, with the creating scarcity. They're, you know, creating the common enemy. You're not the problem, you're not the loser sitting at home, you know, wanking over your internet. It's it's women that are the problem. They're holding you back.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Fat women, because apparently the worst, that is the worst insult ever is to say somebody's fat or they've got low testosterone, they must be really ugly, and that's why we hate them. He was so rude. They're so rude. It was I know so cringy, they're appalling. But I think at the end of the day, glimmer of hope is that Louis produced it, they all let him inside. He's never getting through the front door of a YouTuber ever again, but he's made it, and now they're having the mirror put up to them, and I'm kind of enjoying that. And I hope that it makes more people think, what would I be forced to look at if the mirror was held up to me? And my business practices. And how sustainable is this business model if I can be replaced next week with a I don't know, JD tikki tocky. Then what? Then the dream's over.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

I think you go LM tiki tocky. LM Tiki Toki coming your way. Yeah, I do. Look, I think, I think as well, as we have said, the power of Louis was in the silence, the slowness, the gentle challenge. It's a good thing. Now there's an attractive man. Fellas. Yeah. He's so smart. Intelligent. Oh, he's so smart. I like that. And in that moment, he made them really uncomfortable and exposed them so quickly. Like it was just. So I I do think that as women as well, we in general, I don't want to, you know, talk about all women specifically.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Hashtag, not all women.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

That's right. Hashtag, thank you. You know, we have our empathy. We are community builders and village builders, we look after each other. And we need to remember that our feminism is our strength. Absolutely. And never, never confuse that with we have to embrace these masculine ideals, you know, in order to get somewhere in life. We don't have to do that, and we shouldn't do that. We should be embracing who we are, and in that way as well, we can role model good behaviour. Yeah. We can have our standards and our behaviours, and we can not just feed into theirs.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

And with that, we say, well done, Angie. We're really pleased that you got out of there. And I hope that you are having the best roller skating adventures of your life and not having to put up with that bullshit. And I hope that you got that beautiful fluffy dog. You just deserve happiness and a man who doesn't want multiple wives because you are enough.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Yep, and what I noticed was a strong woman standing next to a really fragile little boy. Oh my god. That's what I saw. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Yes, and before we do wrap that all up, I think the fact that he was texting the assistant because he realized she was talking to Louis, like, how fragile can you get? So pathetic. Control, control, control.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

So pathetic.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

I hope she didn't get in too much trouble. I hope she's left as well. You're beautiful. Get get out of there. You deserve better. And speaking of really strong women, I think it's also. I I wouldn't normally tell a really strong woman to fuck off, but Cyclone Norel can fuck off as well. Yes. We're thinking of everybody across Queensland, across uh the top end here in Northern Territory, and possibly WA. We see what happens over the next few days. But um Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

And to our Northern Territory peeps that are dealing with flooding and all sorts of things.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

It's been a lot. It's has been a lot. A lot of people in town, a lot of people have lost everything. It's been really It's been a really big time here in the Northern Territory, and I think everybody's nervous systems are a bit discombobulated, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

So beautiful call out though, Lauren. So I will say about today. Rage is where it starts, reflections where it changes. Amen. Rage on.