Not All Men… But 62 Million Clicks

Content warning: This episode discusses sexual assault, rape, child sexual exploitation and systemic abuse. Please take care while listening.

In this episode of Rage on the Rocks, we’re looking straight at power – who has it, who’s protected, and who pays the price. We rage about how systems continue to shield men who abuse and exploit women: from the global “online rape academy” ecosystem teaching men how to drug and assault women, to the French Pelicot case where one woman had to drag 51 men through court to be believed, to the Epstein saga where only Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell have been jailed while the powerful men alleged to have used that network remain untouched.

We also unpack the “not all men” phenomenon – how a technically true statement so often recentres men’s discomfort and derails conversations about women’s safety, instead of asking what collective responsibility from good men should actually look like. This one is about naming the patterns that make us rage, and refusing to look away.

If this episode brings things up for you and you are in Australia, you can contact 1800RESPECT (1800 737 732) or visit 1800respect.org.au for 24/7 confidential counselling and support.

Links:
CNN “online rape academy” investigation

Pelicot case coverage

Further details on Pelicot trial

Epstein background and timeline

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to Rage on the Rocks, the weekly debrief where two women pour a drink, drop the polite voice, and talk about the stuff that makes everyone else suddenly very quiet at dinner. Look, today we are raging about sexual violence, power, and the stories that we are told to minimize all of it. We are talking about the so-called online rape academy, the French case where 51 men were found guilty of raping one woman who was drugged by her husband, the Epstein mess, and of course the infamous not all men response. This is absolutely not going to be a comfortable episode. So it does come with a warning out there, but I can promise you that it is going to be an honest episode because pretending all of this is just a few monsters in dark alleys is exactly how we protect the systems that let this keep happening. Now, welcome Lauren to what has started out to be a bit of a dark start.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Yes, absolutely. We are raging today, and I think it's necessary, and I know quite a few people are talking about this at the moment, but who would we be at Rage on the Rocks if we did not comment on just the absolute ongoing horrific mess that is the way we treat women and girls globally?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Exactly. And we have touched on some of these things previously. We haven't gone as deep and serious as we're going to go today, but we're going to do it in our usual rageful way, of course. Yeah, I do feel that if we can't rage about this, what are we doing? What the fuck are we doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:41

I totally agree. We are raging over coffee this morning because we have to stay focused and serious and caffeinated for this one. So this was a news story maybe about a week ago, and Sarah and I talked briefly about it at that point, but we really wanted to get our thoughts in order before we approached what is a really tragic, horrific. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Well, no, unfortunately not unbelievable, but just horrific numbers of men who've been outed by this story, which I think originated in the US through CNN about the online rape academy. 62 million visits. And that's the bit that's unbelievable. The rest of it's not really, because as women, I don't think there's many women out there that think that sexual violence, sexual assault, harassment, rape culture, uh, let's face it, most of us are adjacent to that, or have had various experiences of that throughout our entire lives. That's not the unbelievable part. It's just the scale of it just keeps really being quite breathtaking.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

And my understanding of it is it's like this global online ecosystem where men come together to share tips on drugging and raping women, girlfriends, wives, women in general. And they upload, they trade videos of unconscious women being assaulted. Now, if you're not aware of that, search for the CNN report on that and have a bit of a read.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Put it in our show notes alongside some support lines as well for those of you that might need to do that.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Yeah, it's absolutely shocking. Not only that this stuff happens, but if you think about it on a sort of personal level, and this came out very much in the French Pellicock case as well. This idea that your intimate partner, the person that you're meant to trust the most, is actually doing this. And the fact that they've had 62 million men participate. Actually, no, it's 62 million views or participations in one month, I think the stats were. That's a lot, right? It's not one rogue guy. This is a market out there. It sure is.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

It sure is, yeah. And further to that, they're also drugging women. Like they're drugging women and publicising it. Like that's to me the part that's shocking is how frigging brazen do men have to be before something will be done. And that's I guess why I spend so much time down the Epstein rabbit hole too, because it just keeps blowing my mind that so much is known, so much is apparent, so much is already public that is bad enough, and yet nothing has happened. And you talk about something like the Epstein case as an example. I think there's around three million files that have not been released. And you think about what has been released, things that have led to members of the UK royal family being arrested. And yet, beyond that, in the place where it all originated in the US, then nothing is happening. It's just bizarre, it's brazen, it's in your face. And to me, it tells you about the value of women and girls.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah, it sure does. And the center point of this in the US, where yeah, some people have left their roles after the board has decided this CEO is just no longer representing the company because he's been involved in Epstein, you know, his name's been in Epstein Files, and even women, actually. But when you think about it, who's actually been convicted in relation to this so-called enormous ring of trafficking? One person who is a female.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Now that does not excuse Well, two people, but the other one is now uh has now passed on.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

True, true. Um and we won't even go into the conspiracy around.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

We will not, but the only per yes, you are correct that the only person currently who's been held accountable in that way is a woman, yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

And that doesn't excuse her behaviour in this, because it's absolutely gross, disgusting, and despicable what she would do to young girls. And also, just a brief reminder about language, this isn't about having sex with young girls. This is about raping children. And I'm gonna be really clear about that. But it is also a gendered piece in this story that we know about. And a power piece. Oh, it is all about power. So you have uh a president whose name features very prominently all through this, and yet no clear answers have ever been had in this case. So this is definitely about protecting people in power. No accountability. And look, I think the moral of the Epstein story, from what I can gather so far, is if you're rich enough and you're connected enough and male enough, the trafficking fairy just never seems to know your name or give a shit what you do. Carry on, you know, carry on, do whatever.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

And I mean, that's just the absolute tip of the iceberg of what's going on over there. And look, US politics, who'd have thought I'd be just so drawn into US politics on a daily basis, but it is like watching a surreal movie from 10 years ago, and it's all happening in real time. Like you are absolutely right. I do not know what will be enough. What will be the thing that stops people defending a president who has essentially been found in all probability uh in a civil court to have sexually assaulted a woman? And that's just one of many, many things that he's been to court for involving women. He's paid off a sex worker. He admitted hush money his o in his own words that he grabs women in certain places. He grabs women by the just grab them by the pussy. He's disgusting, it's just locker room talk. But nothing will be enough. Oh, it it's I can't I have no words for the level of support that he still receives and the level of absolute cognitive dissonance that people have about his behaviour, his past behaviour. He is telling you, believe him.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Yeah, and that's where this conversation is all about power. It's power and money. It's it's power first. Money's got to do with it as well, and the dirty tactics that I suppose he's used all throughout his career to get certain dirt on certain people, so it keeps them in line, and for others he lines their pockets, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:53

And I suspect it's much bigger than rape and sexual assault of children and girls and women. I suspect there's larger crimes than that, and that people see there being much better payoff for them in keeping that on the quiet than actually giving redress to people who've been victimized over and over and over and over again.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Yeah, and people like that attract similar people too, and then they all work together to preserve that structure of power. And so that's why you're also seeing lots of other people in their political and other circles surrounding Trump having to resign or being dragged through court system, they're sexual predators in their own right, not necessarily linked to Epstein as well. Thinking about your comment about what is going to be enough. So you listen to some broadcasters in this space, and they believed that out of everything that Trump's ever done, the Epstein stuff could have been the thing to bring him down. Yeah. And he was certainly on the path because it's a story that won't go away. It's been hanging around for a long time. What I do find delightfully ironic in all of this is the fact that he campaigned on bringing out the Epstein pilot. What was he thinking? And then went completely the opposite when it looked like he had to go that way. So I think, I mean, he's a man of the moment, isn't he?

SPEAKER_01 10:19

He's all about what serves me in this moment right now, not about definitely turn around the next day and say the complete opposite and pretend he never said the thing he said the day before. That's right. Um but he did campaign on it, which is very interesting. And some of his supporters will say, well, he's done the most out of anybody to release the files and to have transparency in this in this space. And I want to be very clear as uh, you know, somebody who people also will tie my political views and alliances to. I don't would not make excuses for anyone in this space. Um, should it have been dealt with earlier? Yep, 100%. He campaigned on this issue and is now not delivering on what he campaigned on and is potentially implicated, who knows? In my opinion, I would say there's enough to suggest he potentially is, yes. But he campaigned on it. And there the time is now, the opportunity is right now, there seems to be bipartisan support. And again, but he's being very clear, Lauren.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

He said, This will hurt my friends. So even if he comes out then, having not participated directly in the trafficking of women, he knows that it happened, and he knows that the people that are alongside him are guilty. They are guilty as fuck. And he he's protecting them. So, and this is what happens with power. But if you listen to some of the broadcasters out there when we were saying, Will this be enough to bring him down? So some of them say, Yes, it was certainly on the road. This story was enough to bring him down. And some people out there will say the reason why they picked a fight with Iran was about diverting attention away from Epstein. And thanks, Melania. Yeah, exactly. And then it's How much do you think she hates her husband, just quietly? She should hate him a lot. I mean, I think she's probably a bit of a piece of work as well. But uh, you know, she was good friends in that circle too. So Well, no, apparently not. Apparently not. No, apparently not. But do you know what? It's it's that piece around this sort of power pyramid, if you will. There's ones that will have engaged directly in the trafficking, and then there's all the people around the outside, women included, that have benefited from this. And even that I'm married to this person of incredible power and I've got all this money, and so I've got this status in life. It fucking shits me. Yep. I hate that. And they should not get away with this as well. They are essentially accomplices. I get very emotional about this. Because people are quite willing to live their very privileged lives with no accountability in all of this and can walk away and say, I'm such a victim because my husband was a bastard. It's not a it's not okay. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

No, and you have to question, I mean, if we talk about Giselle Pellicott for a moment, she deserves more than a moment. I mean What a legend. What she had to have gone through to get that matter to the just simply getting it to court. But the amount of men across her region that were found guilty of being part of the rape of Giselle Pellicott.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

So tell me again how many uh how many people I believe it was 51 eventually got convicted. They suspect heaps more involved. And they haven't identified all of them.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

No, and so 51, and within that 51, I understand they come from a great diversity of backgrounds, including one would suggest some quite public roles, probably in uh in a region like the one the Pelicots live in in France. And again, how do they get away with that? And you'd have to imagine, yes, okay, there would be a range of men involved who owe it to themselves and each other to keep that on the down low, because one goes down, they probably all go down, as they did, uh or most of them. But you've got to question how nobody else had a sense that some of this might have been going on. Do you not?

SPEAKER_00 14:47

I don't know. This whole thing blows my mind. Hers, the the Epstein stuff with the amount of people that travelled on his plane but apparently didn't see anything or went to his island. Definitely know anything.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Definitely didn't see any children. I was there seven times, never saw any children.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Rumours. Even when people comment commented on like the general vibe of a person, he was a really creepy guy. You know, that tells you something.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

So for people listening who might not be from our community, we we live in Darwin, right? And population 120,000 people. It's a it's a small city. Like we know what the rumour mill's like in a city like Darwin. Imagine being in the regional part of France. I just cannot imagine that the rumour mill is not 50 times more effective than it is in a community like ours. So I just you're you're quite right. It's just the vibe of a person or a story, or just uh for me, how it managed to stay under wraps and continue for as long as it did is just absolutely horrific. But again, speaks to the structures that exist and all of the people who are potentially involved in keeping these things underground. And I do agree with you, it is a bugbear of mine as well. I'm not particularly good at articulating it, but there are many women who do put the blinkers on around that kind of behaviour in their own lives, and I uh don't want a victim blame because many of them will be victims as well. They absolutely and there are various ways in which people are controlled in relationships and emotionally abused, and you can get very distorted senses of reality in those situations. However, yes, there are there are many, many women who um who also benefit from these systems. You look at people again to jump back over to the Epstein case, and you look at people like Pam Bondi, who presumably, you know, was kept very, very comfortable in a high-paying position covering for men who have done what quite frankly sound like just the absolute worst of the worst of crimes. And it's really interesting because people are very interested in crime and people seeing the consequences of it, but often not when we're talking about crimes against women and girls.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Yeah, and the so-called white-collar crime as well. This isn't it, but we've protected white-collar crime for a while, and this is also about those of power and status. And when they commit crimes, it's different to others that don't fall into the high power, high money categories, I suppose, because they have so much ability to protect each other in that space. So this is the system that continues to protect people.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

So we think about this in the context then of the other powerful people on this planet who at the moment, I would say, let's don't worry, they're still men. Sarah's giving me a look.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

I'm like, who are these other people?

SPEAKER_01 18:09

The tech bros. We've talked about the tech bros before, but I think the tech bros are an important part of this conversation because if you look at the CNN reporting, and again, we'll link this story in the show notes. Um, the people running these websites, creating the AI, that's grok, that's you know, undressing people and putting bikinis on photos of minors and all that sort of stuff. I'm just gonna quote from this story, which we will link. Ofcom told CNN its job was not to tell platforms which specific content to take down. That was uh in quotation marks, and that the quote responsibility is on platforms to decide whether the content is illegal, end quote. You know, we exist in this world where people who run Facebook pages and things like that can be held liable for comments made that might be defatory on their pages, and then you look at these major, major platforms, organizations making stacks of money off content culture, attention culture, as you would say, attention economy, who are then going, Oh, not my job. It's just my job to collect the money and the views and the 62 million people who visit my website so I can stick ads on and make the money, but we've got no moral and ethical responsibility here. What's your response to that? How does that make you feel, Sarah?

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Do you really want to know how I feel about that? Because I'm outraged. It's a good topic to raise.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

It's appalling, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Oh, and I this conversation always for me comes back to this rampant capitalism. Now, I think capitalism has had the has built opportunity for a lot of people. It has bought people up in terms of their socioeconomic status, et cetera, created opportunities, et cetera, et cetera, right? However, it's gone way out of control and it is not evenly distributed. And it is out of control when we can have in the world billionaires and trillionaires. Because at that level, you can buy people, you can buy systems and structures, you can buy protection. And I think that is what has happened in this sort of Epstein case in particular. I don't know what's going on with the Rape Academy site, who's on that, who's doing the protecting. But in terms of AI Tech Bro stuff is the big power structure of the moment that we're in, that is what it's all about. And so they will protect each other in this space as well. And I think if you look at the types of people that potentially exist, and I don't know all of them, so I am being a little bit ignorant in this space. But if you look at what you see from the outside of your people like Elon, our mate Elon Musk and Sam Altman and other people like that, look at some of the decisions they've made. There's no empathy there, there's no respect for women there. And so they're all about the dollar more and more and more. It's never going to be enough. And so we need to protect that. We're protecting our power structure, we're protecting our dollar and our business. And I think capitalism, this rampant idea of capitalism, gives people the license to say, oh, but it's just business. It's okay. I can distance myself from this as if ethics, morals, and human decency don't apply anymore. And that's okay. Actually, it's fucking not. It's not okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

What is wrong with these people? It's not. It's not okay. And it's an injury. Here's a word out there to all the organizations who might be playing in this space. It's just it's not enough to be going, oh, we need to make a statement about climate change and we need to do offsets and things to be more socially responsible. You have A moral and ethic duty in spaces like this. If you are running a communications platform, if you are running a sexually explicit platform, you to me that's where your social responsibility lies. I mean, maybe it's a big discussion there, but you do have a responsibility to the community that you make money from. I mean, they're making money from gross men here, it seems. And I think that we probably, and I'm gonna guess that I can speak for you here, Sarah. Add our voices to the many who are saying, where is the investigation of people who have uploaded videos to this site? I dare say it's probably global because a lot of this is happening globally. That's you know, it's basically now we're in the land of tech-enabled abuse of not only sleeping sedated women, but children at rates that you can't even imagine. Rabbit hole that you want to make sure you are absolutely in the right mindset for. Like this is fucking rampant. So if people are uploading videos, is there an investigation? Again, Telegram was being used, messaging platform, and it was taken down while the media were investigating. But that's a protection piece. That's not a yes, we acknowledge that our platforms are being used for evil, and we will fully comply, we'll make sure it gets taken down and we'll fully comply to make sure that people are held accountable for this and that we make strong statements about it. You know, the tech bros just get to create these platforms and say, do with it what you will. We're just responsible for creating cool shit, and what people do with it doesn't particularly matter to us.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

No, and I think it's also worth thinking about. There've been reports in the past of women that have come out either on social media or on websites sharing names of abusers in their life as well, and reports that they get shut down quite quickly. And it only takes the naming of one or two men, innocent or guilty, to shut something like that down because we're very eager to make sure that no innocent men uh get caught up in this conversation, but we're not as quick to shut down something like a rape academy website that is actually actively abusing women every time something is uploaded or watched as well. So there's a double standard there as well. Look, I think that this conversation has to also move into the not all men conversation. Hashtag not all men. And what responsibility actually look like as well. So obviously, most men are not on rape forums, they're not drugging people, they're not flying on Epstein's plane. Absolutely. But also, almost all perpetrators of this are men, and all men live in and benefit from a culture that minimizes jokes about or ignores this type of stuff. So the problem with not all men isn't that it's factually wrong, it's that it re-centers men's feelings and shuts down the conversation instead of asking, okay, so what can the decent ones do? You know?

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

So I just want to be really clear that this isn't about men hating, because not all men are rapists, but all men are needed to change the culture that protects rapists.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

And we can say not all men, but I can pretty confidently say that um most women have an experience of walking down a street at night and wondering whether she should have her keys between her fingers. Yep. Worrying about the person who's maybe walking on the other side of the road, a little bit further down the street. All the time. Or whether, you know, you're gonna get groped in a club. All of these things are happening to women on a daily basis. We are taught that we have to protect ourselves. And this has been the case forever. I mean, it's where things like Reclaim the Night were born. So here Reclaim the Night's run by Ruby Geyer, a really fantastic local service for women sexual who've experienced sexual assault. And it is about women taking over the streets again. But my understanding is that that the birth of that was from a serial killing bloke back in the day where the response from the police was a curfew on women.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Yep.

unknown 26:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

You'll be safer if you just stay at home. You won't get murdered if you stay at home. And I think that's still kind of the message today, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 27:03

It's absolutely the message. You teach your well, this is you know, the message that I got growing up as well. And, you know, we're teaching girls out there, you're stupid if you walk home by yourself at night. What would you do? You gotta watch what you wear. Don't wear anything to encourage men rather than Or distract them. Or distract them, yes. But rather than men, how about you just behave decently towards women? How about here's an answer. Instead of women not wearing their short skirts because they might be raped, how about you just don't rape women? There's a novel.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

There is a reason why when they have a choice about who they would rather bump into in a forest, women choose the bear, not the man. There's there Yeah, what does that tell you, right? Right? Yes. A hundred percent. And I think there are actually to lighten up the conversation for a minute, I would not lighten it up, but I think actually there are quite a few men who have been reading that and realizing why women would choose the bear, not a man, and actually having a a light bulb moment about the fear and the experiences that women are having on a day-to-day basis. And I think that is super, super important. It is such a good example to have given how useful that is. I am going to segue for a moment into something that is adjacent but I think related.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

I did have to hop on the other day. I could not help myself. There was a post on somebody's page. It was about men's health, and one of the comments was or involved, when is International Men's Day? Yep. That was the response I knew I was gonna get. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

So we may have texted. So we did text about your official response was much better than what my response was.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Yeah, it was 19th of November. And so I have serious concerns here, right? Because there's two potential Sorry, I'm still laughing.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Can we come back to what I said my official response would have been?

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Go on.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Every fucking day, mate, is International Men's Day. That's true. Get over yourself.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

And that's what I should have said, but I didn't because you know woman you are. No, it's just it's so disappointing. And that people put this up. Men put this up with their names and their profile pictures, and sometimes you know them, sometimes you don't. So I don't want to get too into it because I don't want to really identify people, but this idea that men have been marginalized by women seeking equality and therefore need an International Men's Day. You've got one. I mean, yes, it's every fucking day, but it's also the 19th of November. On top of that, is an extra special day for you. So my two concern scenarios are this you are either just an absolute fucking wanker for asking the question. I vote that. The other scenario is that you are really genuine and you're not thinking, and you're just asking because you're curious as to whether there is an International Men's Day, and you can't use Google, in which case you probably need to undertake some digital literacy courses because it's not for me as a woman to do that fucking work for you. You can learn how to use Google and find out for yourself, brother. And it would be really, really good if you can let us all know what you're organizing for International Women's Day so we can come along and support. Oh, sorry, International Men's Day, so that we can come along and support all your hard work that you're gonna put into organizing it.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Absolutely. I want to hear some of the amazing discussions that are gonna happen on International Men's Day.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Me too. And look, I use that example because that comment happens all the fucking time. And I think, you know, to our credit, a lot of women deep breathe through it and write 19th of November because it's just a nice short answer and it's like, yes, dickhead, you could have just Googled this yourself. But the the irony of the fact that the International Men's Day events that I'm aware of are organised by Don't say women. A woman. Oh, for fuck's sake.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Stop it, ladies. Can I just say that?

SPEAKER_01 31:50

No, we love we love that. And look, I will no, we don't love that, but um, I will say that there is a really important place for conversations about toxic masculinity, about mental health, about doing the big work, being in touch with emotions, exactly the same as there are for women. I I think there is a really important space for that, and that men should be encouraged to have spaces where they are able to vulnerably connect with one another. And I think there are some really beautiful examples of where that happens. I just wish it happened more.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

I agree. I absolutely agree. And, you know, and and not to get too far out of our today's topic, but the rates of depression across men in particular, and the disconnection perhaps that they're feeling from their own communities, from their families, and most importantly from themselves as well, because you know, there uh many men are not brought up to be able to process emotion and feel their feelings. And those things are just super important for general functioning and feeling okay. And so for that, I have a great deal of empathy. And the ones that are prepared to do the hard work in that space, we love that. I say, How can I support you? Because that is the stuff that is going to be supporting the next generation to come through healthy, happy, and supporting their role in women's safety. And yeah, you know, so I am.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

I dare I say it, but that is way sexier. Oh, totally supporting it. Way sexier for a man to be totally understanding of his needs and vulnerabilities, and to be able to connect on that level. Yeah. Yep. The reason why I bring it up is yes, it was tangent, Phil, but I do think it's an important part of this conversation whereby men just feel as though they are threatened by women seeking equality, and I don't know, it just drives people more into this excusing the things like the Epstein stuff, finding the excuses like, oh, but the Republicans and Donald Trump, they're the ones who've released it, and he called the FBI, didn't he? And he did this and he did that. And it's like, well, in my opinion, he could have also contacted the FBI because potentially he gets a better outcome for himself if he knows the FBI are onto him as well. But anyway, that's a whole other tangent.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

I do feel he's a special case.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

He's a special case, but but the people defending him are not. The people visiting these websites are not. The people who are not joining the calls to take these things down, that's a really large proportion of our population. Who's commenting on this? Mostly women.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Right? When we're talking about the rape academy, most of it has been women. And then we've got people online saying, when's International Men's Day? And you're like, are you fucking serious? No, no. If that's your biggest concern, dude, you should go and read this reporting about the fucking rape academy. Then come back to me and ask me when fucking International Men's Day is.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yeah, show me the comparable website of women that are out there drugging their other halves, recording themselves raping their husbands, their partners. It it just doesn't exist. It's not there. Show me it. I would be open to it, and you know what? I'll rage against those women too, because actually what I'm about is how do we support each other to live the best lives we can. These people are just horrible, horrible humans. And the thing is, if you're a good man, we're not talking about you, we're talking to you. We need you on this pitch. We don't need you standing on the sideline yelling to us, I'm not like that, and then going home. We need you listening to the eyes. We know you're not like that. That's right. And I have some excellent male friends in my life that are interested in women's equality and you know, wanting to do their bit. And you know what? I'm sure they do. You know, I'm sure they're the ones that are at a barbecue and saying, actually, mate, we don't say that about women. We hope so.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

You know, we hope so, but they're the voices we need on topics like this as well. Yeah. Because your daughters, your wives, your friends, they're watching.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Can I also say, as well, that it isn't just about men? We've touched on this, but women, we do it too. He'd never do that. He's a good dad, that woman's exaggerating, women lie about these things. Our personal experience of one man does not cancel out someone else's trauma. And we have to understand that if we want to live together as a community, we all need to take responsibility in this space to be doing something about it. So, yeah, I'm just, I don't know. I think it's probably time to move to glimmers because I this topic does completely outrage me and I get very verbal. Um and we will short circuit our nervous systems if we continue too long. Short circuit and say to the people that do listen to our Rage on the Rocks uh segment and have listened this far into it, that I think it it's probably been hard to listen to. We would love to know if other people are engaged in this conversation or interested in this story. You know, none of this is about proving that all men are monsters. This isn't about that. It's about being honest that where we live at the moment, millions of people are quietly clicking on videos of unconscious women, uh, where a woman like Giselle Pellicott in France had to sit through a no, she chose to sit through the trial listening to all 51 men all talking about the horrendous things that they did to her. And it took her courage to step up, leave shame behind, own what happened to her, and say, I'm also doing this for others. You know, I've I'm doing this so these men don't do it to anyone else. And in terms of Epstein, like an entire traffic traffic and empire, how are we going to end that? We need to have these conversations, keep them live, and play our part so this doesn't happen going into the future. Because I know I don't want my girls. Nope. Our daughters deserve to mess up with this.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Glimmer, do you have a glimmer? I do have a glimmer. My glimmer is going to be associated with this today. And I thought about this as I was doing some writing this week. I always feel quite buoyed by the fact that the younger generation now has words for things that we didn't have when I was growing up. I think they have got an understanding of a whole range of behaviours and things that we potentially couldn't put words to. And so again, it's important to pay tribute to them and their experiences and the way in which they are articulating their boundaries and, you know, giving words to things like stealthing, for example, which is now in legislation in many jurisdictions, um, coercive control, those sorts of things we potentially didn't have the language for. And I think that's a positive step forward that we should celebrate, and just solidarity to those out there who are really active in this space, people like Chanel Contos, like just really incredible women, Grace Tame, who have done more in a very short period of time in addressing some of these issues than most people could probably dream of accomplishing in a lifetime.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Yeah, it's an awesome glimmer. I agree, I agree. And language is super important, right? It ain't because without being very thoughtful about language, we start to phrase things in a way that can further victimize people and excuse this behavior as well. We need to call out these things for what they are. This is rape of women, this isn't uh non-consensual sex. You know, those two things sound very different and evoke very different sort of visceral responses as well. A glimmer for me always about the women who are telling the stories. They're getting together, they're telling them, they're telling them louder, they're telling them earlier, the podcasters out there that are addressing these things as well, bringing out these conversations. We have journalists that are digging, finding survivors, and you know, more people kind of joining the dots on these sorts of things. And I suppose from this, we also invite, from these glimmers, we invite action and not despair. I think that's really important. So if you're a man that's listening, this is your invitation in. We really don't want any apologies on behalf of all men. That is so not necessary. If you're a good man, brilliant. We know that there's so many of you out there, but we need you to get curious and stay in the discomfort because no one wants to talk about this. This is a terrible. I don't want to talk about this. I don't want to have to be talking about this. It's horrible, right? And to think that I'm sending my girls out into a world where this exists really frightens the shit out of me. Right. So stay in the discomfort, challenge your mates. It is in the everyday conversation. And do you know what? Little boys are hearing and seeing their dads, uncles, other mates making a joke about women, something that devalues them, something that, you know, my misses, or something that, you know, says that women are an object to be owned or controlled. We need to stop that shit. And we need to be calling it out. And if there's a little boy in your life somewhere, take them under your wing and have some of these conversations if you can. And back the women in your life when they say that something is off. And I guess stop treating the I would never do that as the end of the conversation. It doesn't have to be part of the conversation. Good women know that good men aren't doing these things. We just need a little bit more. So if you're a woman listening, we see you. We want you to take care of yourself. We want you to reach out to a safe person, a friend, a service, a professional. Don't carry this story alone. And thanks everyone for letting us rage on this topic. Rage on.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Rage on.