Disappoint Someone Today - Why People Pleasing Sucks

Strap in, because we're taking on the topic we've been working ourselves up to...people pleasing. 

Let's be real. We're not pleasing anyone. Additionally, you can't rage with a mouth full of yes! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Rage on the Rocks, the show where we stop being nice girls and start telling the truth about what that has cost us. This week we're talking about people pleasing, all the tiny, exhausting ways women can taunt themselves to keep everyone else comfortable. The extra shifts at work you didn't want, the cupcakes for the school fate that you baked at midnight, the thanks for helping you give your partner for doing the dishes in the house that he lives in. Hmm. The smile you paste on while you're inside are muttering, I fucking hate this. Look, we're not coming for kindness. We're coming for the performance. The yes that should have been a no, the compliment that should have been a boundary. The it's fine that is clearly not fine. So today we're asking, when you say yes, are you being generous or are you actually lying? Are you doing the thing because you truly want to, or because you're terrified of what people will think if you don't? And we're doing all of this in my house today. Hi, Lauren.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Hello. It's lovely to be in your part of the world. And we were just saying that we have not been in a local establishment for a few weeks. Is it health kick? Is it dry season? Is it all of the above?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

I think we are demonstrating our adaptability and diversity as humans that we can actually rage wherever. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

And with whichever beverage is available at the time, particularly ones that are good for your urinary tract. Thank you, Cranberry. But here we are. And today we are talking people pleasing.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

I think we've been wanting to talk about this one for a while. I think we have, yes. I have definitely used the term recovering people pleaser for myself many a time.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

I'm not sure how recovered I am. I'm on a journey. We all recovery journey.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

That sounds very weird. I love that. And you know what? The journey is a bit everywhere, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 2:07

It's long.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

It is very long.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

I and thirsty work.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

But for water. For water. Yes, of course, of course. And I think that's the important element that underpins this conversation as well, is the understanding that the awareness of being a people pleaser is the starting point. And hurrah if you absolutely have that awareness, because that I think is the biggest step. But a bit like myself, you can experience success in some ways when you start committing to not being a people pleaser. But because it is a recovery, it does mean that you will relapse. That's been my experience.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Welcome to our 12-step plan. No, no, but it is. Yes, you are quite right. You will relapse, you will catch yourself. And I think as well, there are some very harsh truths in it that we have to confront. And I think that when we do actually start to think about people pleasing in other frames, I think that can help us not do it. And you as you certainly um have a very good example of that. So let's just kick off.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Let's do it. Can I ask you first? Yes, and we didn't prepare for this beforehand, so I'm gonna ask you when someone says to you from your school or childcare, Lauren, we're having a school fate. Can you come and bake us five dozen cupcakes so we can sell it? What's your reaction to this? Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Internal panic, meltdown. No, stop talking. Brain. Can't keep up with my mouth. Yes. How about you?

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Uh yeah, that is nah. See, I just I can't do that. Uh for me, I would rather say, can I just give you 50 bucks? That would be great. I'm more than happy to donate.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Very good solution.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Money, yeah. So I guess along the journey I have realized that time is my most precious resource and energy. Time and energy sit together. And so for me, I would much rather give someone money.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

What if you say yes and then just go and buy heaps of boxes from Coles?

SPEAKER_00 4:31

There's another people-pleasing piece there. Can we do that? Don't know. Does the school fate fundraising committee allow?

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Probably not. Probably not. But the other thing is, how did I end up on this fundraising committee?

SPEAKER_00 4:45

That is an example.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

That I don't want to be on, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Yes. Oh, please.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

No offending to the committees that I'm on currently. But yes, that I mean, I'm very familiar with the idea of saying yes because a committee really, really, really, really needs a president, a committee member, or whatever. Or then you can't leave because there's just no one else. You can't leave. I see it everywhere now. Yes. I hear it from people on committees all the time. They've been on them for years, and it's like no one to hand over to. And so there they still are.

unknown 5:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Slogging their guts out instead of saying no more.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

That's the secret, isn't it? Is that these volunteering committees and other things are often run by a very small group of people and they are often the same group of people running every other committee because no one else will do it.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Very true. Very true. Which is a problem in of itself that maybe we'll get into another day. But people pleasing, where well, no, let's not talk about where it comes from yet. What do you think it is?

SPEAKER_00 5:53

So as a lifelong people pleaser until probably maybe five or so years ago.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Reformed.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Not completely, as I said, journey, like yourself, definite journey. For me, people pleasing, well, okay, so when I had to look seriously at my people pleasing, the thing I noticed first was how I was feeling. And I experienced a lot of anxiety at the time and anger and resentment. Goodness. And so it took a while to get to the bottom of what the deal was there. I listened to a podcast by a woman called Brooke Castillo, who runs or used to run the Life Coach School. She's an American woman, has made phenomenal amounts of money selling her wares and brands and services over the time. But her particular podcast on people pleasing changed my fucking life. It really did. Love that. We will find it. We will find it and we will link it. I absolutely will. So and I totally subscribe to her idea. People pleasing, according to her, is lying. She considers people pleasing about trying to manipulate what other people think about you. So let that sit just for a moment. If that sounds very harsh, I completely agree with you. And harsh is my brand of personal development. That's what I like. It's what hits me hard. It slaps me across the face and wakes me up. If that is not your brand, I apologize. Maybe you need something a little uh a bit of a softer landing, perhaps. That's fine. For me, Sarah's not gonna people please you, so don't try and find that here. That's right. Uh take it, take it, people, take it for what it is. Absolutely. Slap across the face. If you people please, you are lying. And it was a wake-up call for me in terms of does that align with the values that I have in my life? The answer was no, that is not how I want to live. And there are some consequences that go with that lying as well. But before we go there, what do you think? What is people pleasing for you?

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Look, I like that harsh definition of it because I think it does probably make you think about it in a different way. Because I think many of us people pleasers who are on a journey reformed, recovering, wherever we are, get very used to knowing that it also comes from a place of self-protection often, particularly for us as women. It's um something that we do so that we don't hurt feelings or we don't come across as too much so that people like us and all the things that we're kind of told are important. Yes, particularly when we're young. You know, it's it's drilled into us uh somewhat.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Be the good girls, be the good girls everyone else's feelings. It doesn't matter what you want, serve everybody else.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Serve everybody else. We don't want to hurt people's feelings. You smile, you're happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Don't make a fuss, be accommodating, be accommodating, don't be high maintenance, definitely don't be high maintenance, but also just accept that some people, you know, will say offensive things and do offensive things and we just we don't cause a ripple. So I think that this is one of those great subjects that demonstrate duality. I think both of those things are true. Yeah, I think people pleasing is really unhelpful overall, but I don't think it comes from a malicious place. But I think we do have to sometimes think about it in really strict back terms, like you said, to start to try and modify our behavior, to give ourselves enough of a reason to go, oh, I don't like that.

unknown 10:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Now that you've put it like that, I don't like that. And I think that's important. We don't control other people's feelings, we don't control the way other people react. Yep. And you do, I think, as a people pleaser, you do hold on to a lot of resentment, you hold on to a lot of anxiety, you look around waiting for someone to be accountable for their behavior and that you actually haven't held them accountable for. Yeah. Because you're just stewing on things like it just really not good.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

No, that's right. And I think I've I've had conversations with women that will say to me, Well, how do I know that I'm people pleasing? Because there are things that I have to do in my life that I have to say yes to, even if I don't want to do it. And it is true. We do have some obligations, you know. I mean, sometimes I don't feel like making dinner for my family, and yet child protection kind of frowns on me if I don't feed my children. So we do, we got responsibilities, obligations, yes. That's right. So we do have to do that. And sometimes, yes, I do feel resentful about some of those things. But in general, it's these other things where I'm feeling obligated to do certain things, but perhaps the obligation is a bit misplaced. It might, it can look like things like over-apologizing, it can look like pretending to agree with someone when you don't, you know, the sweet smile when actually you want to tear their head off. And I'm not suggesting we should tear their head off. There are other ways to deal with things, but it's about hiding your true feelings. And I think it can be, it can exist in what you say and in what you do. It's both of those things. For me, when I started to look at the people pleasing, I tried to create space between if there was an ask and my response, where I had a moment to, and we've spoken about this before, Glenn and Doyle's sink into my knowing to have a moment to think about is this what I want? So if I'm responding to Sarah, will you make cupcakes for the school fate? Yes, I have a moment to think about how is this feeling in my body and why? Uh, and I'm a big proponent of do I like my reasons? So if I say yes, do I like my reasons? If my reasons are, do you know what? Because I do have time this week and I said I wanted to contribute to the school and this is a meaningful way to do that, that's a great reason. I like that reason. So that's not a people-pleasing response.

unknown 12:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

If I say yes, when actually please people, but yes. It will please people, that's right. Yeah. But it's more about, is it pleasing me? And that's where that sinking into my knowing comes from. But I can say yes and have a completely different internal dialogue. And if that dialogue is, oh, I hate how this person keeps asking me this question. I really don't want to do this. Why do they keep asking me over and over? They never ask the dad or you know, whatever. Then I'm feeling like if I say yes under those circumstances, that probably is people pleasing. And I have to ask myself why I'm doing that. Totally. Am I trying to keep them on side? Do I not want people to think I'm a bad mother or a horrible person?

SPEAKER_01 13:24

I don't even think it's that deep sometimes. I think, again, we're just it happens in workplaces too. We we're part of a team. And I think when you're a people pleaser, you take that particularly seriously as well. I am part of a team, I'm a team player. What usually happens when you are that person and you're a peep people pleaser, probably plenty of team players that are very good at boundaries and very good at you know, doing all the things that you just articulated really well. But then the people pleaser who is a team player is also watching people who don't always do what's best for the team, don't always pick up the slack. And it be you become resentful with that cycle because you still will do it. You'll still say, Yep, I will go to that event and volunteer my time. I will bake those cupcakes because you're looking around thinking no one else is saying that they'll do this. And if that does not happen, it won't happen. Somebody's got to do it. And therefore that person is me. And that just creates such a cycle of resentment, doesn't it? Like but where's where that resentment should be directed is interesting because I think actually at the end of the day, you kind of have to direct a little bit of it back to yourself because other people often doesn't matter how much they're talking about being a team player, have much better boundaries than you do.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

A whole nother podcast on boundaries. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

But it intersects really largely with people pleasing because people pleasers don't have very good boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

That's right. And let's talk about then the impact of not having those boundaries and the continual people pleasing piece. When you people please, yeah, what what are you most likely to people please about or on or to maybe it's a person?

SPEAKER_01 15:27

I think it's been different scenarios over many years, to be honest, in different and it depends on the context. But look, I will say I am in a volunteer position that I probably am well overdue giving up, but I didn't want to put the organization in a bad position, so I didn't. Uh I've been in situations where I haven't voiced being pissed off or whatever, because I've decided I'm not gonna take on that battle. You know, you pick your battles. I think in a work context, I've probably dealt with it more often than not. Because you do, you start to think if I speak up on this issue, I'm gonna get X response. They're gonna be unhappy, they're gonna be upset with me. They, you know, and it becomes this whole thing about trying to manage your own emotions, their emotions, their reactions, and your nervous systems just getting fucked over the whole time.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

And so, no, that's a really great example. You've articulated that really well. When I think about there's a consequence internally for people pleasing, you may feel resentful that you've ended up having to do something or say something that actually is out of alignment with what you really think and feel about something. Um, and I think that resentment over time, you know, that negativity breeds not only negativity towards a person or a particular situation, but also towards yourself. You get angry with yourself for saying yes to something that you don't want to do, for example. The other side to it is you're doing that to try to avoid also feeling a particular way. Yes, yep. And not succeeding. And not succeeding, thinking that it's futile. I mean, you did say just before that we often do these things to try to manage someone else's feelings. Yes. Or avoid a particular situation, it might be conflict or something like that. But there's a whole internal feeling and dialogue that goes with people pleasing as well as not people pleasing. And it's almost like a battle between the two. But we always seem to consider if you're stuck in a cycle of people pleasing, we seem to think that if I don't people please, then the other one is going to feel worse. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Yeah, and I think it's also it it fits into the fawn quadrant of the fight, flight phrase or fawn, right? Yes. The way that I see it is that's kind of what you're doing. You are. It's and it is a response to yes, probably trying to avoid an uncomfortable situation or an uncomfortable outcome. But you're you're already very much in that discomfort.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

You are, and we do know, evidence tells us, constant people pleasing linked to it's won't, none of this will surprise you, burnout, resentment, anxiety, loss of self. You can end up with no idea what actually makes you happy. Yeah. Because your whole identity is about trying to keep others happy, which, as you alluded to earlier, you can't do because you can't control how other people think and feel.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

You cannot do it. You can't do it. And, you know, I think about some of the things that I've talked about in my other podcast, um, What Remains Wild, I think that has been a big part of my own journey, to be honest. You come out of something like politics after 10 years, and I was like, what are my hobbies? What are the things that I enjoy doing? What I just spent so much time thinking about how I was to communicate something to somebody, and you know, and in many contexts, the community, the, you know, and you're constantly managing different expectations of you and um, that does number on you in the world.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

And facing criticism left, right, and centre, no matter what decision you are.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Facing criticism all the time, and it's it's a really interesting context because you know, generally, if you're running in a for a major party, for example, you know, half of the people in your constituency didn't support you getting the job.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Some of those people are gonna really, really dislike you, and anything you say, in any way you say it, is not going to be pleasing to them. But you are constantly trying to kind of maintain this image and poise and you know, and manage the rage as well, which is probably part of the birth of this podcast together, is like actually we we do need a way in which we are able to express the full range of emotions that we don't necessarily do, um, particularly as women, through our lives, because we are trying to not be too much of something.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Yeah, don't be too much for other people. Goodness me. We also know from research that people pleasing, you are more if you are a people pleaser, you're more likely to engage in self-destructive behaviour to make others comfortable. So this article gives an example of overeating at social events just to make others feel at ease. Interesting. Do you know what? I've totally done that. Have you? Yeah, I really have. Or why does it put other people at ease? Oh, the eat more, you're here. I cooked all this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Enjoying, yes, you've got to be seen to be enjoying the hospitality and the yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

And I've been at a workplace where we had people that love to bake and they bake lots and lots of sweet treats all the time. And it was a terrible thing to say no to people's hard effort. Yeah. But yeah, yeah. I don't want to be eating cakes every single day.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

No, and it seems like a small thing, right? But once you have gone, oh, I can't even say no to that third muffin that they've brought in today because they really push in about me. And they're gonna have their feelings hurt. That's the start. It's a slippery slope. Slippery slope with muffins.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

But it is um for women, it's This, yeah, be a good girl. I want to bring client.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

I also want to bring up a more, and you know, if we discuss workplaces, that obviously causes a lot of stress for some people, but I want to bring it a bit closer to home with a bit more emotional connection. Yeah. What it means to people please with partners and with children, even to rock the boat and say, actually, I'm not going to do that thing perhaps that I've always done because, and here's one for you. I don't want to. And I think with the people that are closest to us, and again, we've we've kind of touched on this in previous episodes as well. Yeah. The people that we love the most are the hardest ones to then sort of shake up when we're trying to do what's good for us. When we start to realize actually, this people pleasing has led me to overcommitment to over-obligate myself to things that I don't really want to be part of. I'm running around madly, I'm burning out, I'm exhausted all the time. Yeah. I'm trying to be everything to everyone. Yeah. It needs to stop here. And it might mean things like actually, for my children going into high school or whatever, I'm not going to make their lunch anymore. You need to get up and make your own lunch in the mornings. And that can be really hard for family members when women, mums start to decide what is important to them and what they actually want, and start to put their foot down and say, I'm not going to do these things that I was doing before.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Yeah, totally. I do think that's really important in a home sense. And, you know, and I was thinking about it before in a different way is this whole idea, like, you know, I've got girls, you've got girls. So thinking about when we're talking, think about, you know, my own relationship and raising of them. And it's like when you say, don't say that dinner's disgusting, you know. Although I kind of think that's a that's a good thing. It's like there is a way that you can say that you don't like something without being like offensive, and that's not what we're talking about. But um, yes to what you're saying, I agree. I think there are many things that mums in particular take on that other members of their family, particularly children who are growing old enough to have responsibilities, should be doing and should start to learn that if you don't do that thing, there is a consequence for it, and that's on you. You know, that's how we all learn. But I think as well, people pleasing less in other contexts actually makes us better people at home. Definitely. Because we're not getting home exhausted and burnt out and crabby because we've been people pleasing everybody else all day. And I think you see that best with kids because you see them go to school and they could be perfect little angels and they're there and they've got a really strict set of rules, and they've got to sit on a certain spot in the mat and they come home and they're totally exhausted, and it's their safe space, and so they have a meltdown on you, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

And I think it's the perfect example of it. If we're going everywhere else, people pleasing, and we're taking that home, that's where we start to have our kind of that's where the fallout is, right? Because it's our safe space. You're right. So we we don't, we're not able to show up as the people that we want to show up as at home if we're people pleasing everywhere else. But yeah, there is also a harsh lesson, I think, for everyone that in your households are a collective group of individuals who also have agency and the ability to pick up some of the slack for others when it's needed. And yeah, that you know, sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do, but it's not for one member of the family or even two members of the family to be doing all the things.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

No, that's so true. And thinking about people pleasing, I'm wondering because we always do come back to what does this look like in terms of men? Do we see men people pleasing?

SPEAKER_01 26:24

I think that it I think yes, we can, and we do. I think it's looked upon differently than it is for women. I think often men who people please are seen as understanding how the game works. You know, oh there's there's John, he knows what to do and say to get things done. Whereas women don't necessarily get it doesn't become a leadership trait for a woman, yeah. Um, but it does, it does for a man. Um, so yeah, I think we do see it, but I think we probably see it less often, and maybe it is because of things like anger, for example. It is not as trained into a young man that you shouldn't express anger or you know, if you're being treated badly that you shouldn't say something. I think those are situations that men feel often much more comfortable in than women.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

And therefore there's an outlet for them, like you know, where women are kind of seen as unhinged for raising those things. You know, we're supposed to be gracious. If we're being treated badly, just be gracious. There's a ton of excuses for why this person is treating you badly. Whereas a man who calls out the behavior is probably they've got an outlet, they're not people pleasing, and it's seen as great leadership trait. Leadership, not catty, not catty, bitchy, unhinged.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Yeah, that's right. Angry woman, the angry woman, the angry woman, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I I I mean, men aren't as socially punished for saying no, right? That's that is true. I think if a man says, no, I can't do the baking for the school fate. This is assuming that he's actually asked, by the way, because I would suggest that women are probably asked more. A, probably by virtue that more women are at home and perhaps taking children to and from school and being in those sorts of situations that put them face to face with people that will do the asking. Uh, but also B, I think it is a it's a it's part of our social expectation that women are just more likely to be asked. They're the ones expected to be in the kitchen already baking. Do you think that the peer part of that is important though as well?

SPEAKER_01 28:57

So you think about your so often you're, you know, you've got school-age kids. Who is it that's talking in the school community about the school fate on the WhatsApp chat or the whatever?

SPEAKER_00 29:11

And we've spoken about this before. We're like the women build the communities. And so as part of that, you do talk about who's doing the thing. Who's doing what? Yeah. Yeah. And the only people in the chat are the other people who are doing the thing. Yeah. Yeah. I have had conversations with women friends before about something as simple as, say, attending a netball game. And with the dads that don't attend, there's sort of no conversation. But if I can't attend, a conversation has been had where, oh, but you know, don't you feel we really want to? Yeah. So it wasn't just deprioritized over the top of this. Exactly. How could you possibly have prioritized something else?

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Shock horror. So it's only happened sort of once, and mostly I don't, it's not like an everyday occurrence. So I don't want to be all dramatic about it, but it does happen. So, you know, are we treated as being selfish or disorganized if we don't say yes or turn up when we're supposed to for the children or for the school thing, for the community thing? And I don't think men necessarily get that level of expectation foisted upon them.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

No.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Uh, they're more expected to turn up for working life, you know. So yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, the there's also a piece around caregiving and domestic labor. We know that women obviously do more unpaid work, more emotional management, more default parenting tasks than men. Yeah. Um, even in, you know, the dual earner households as well. So there's different patterns, even in terms of that. So people pleasing an expectation. I think as women, we turn up and do those things automatically as part of our role. It's our obligation to do those things as well. And I know that I've been in situations, you know, with the housework-y stuff, yeah, where I have felt immensely resentful of being the person that is doing more of that stuff. Um but I kept doing it, which is fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Yeah, and I if we sit with that for a minute, because it's been present throughout the whole conversation and we know it to be true, that doesn't go anywhere. Where does that go? It doesn't go anywhere, and worse, it can grow. Then what happens? You know, so in terms of people pleasing, you know, I often want to think about when do we start pleasing ourselves as well. Absolutely. As a as a person who deserves that same level of care and doesn't deserve to melt into a giant puddle of resentment.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

I agree, and I think it's an a great time to start questioning the definition of the word selfish. And maybe we could reclaim it as a positive thing that selfishness, putting me and what I want first, will actually, and this ties back to what you said earlier, will actually then give me my full cup that I then need to show up in the way I want to show up for my most important people in my life.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Well, for your most important people, but also in terms of being more productive, feeling happier in the workplace, because that is an element of this, is that there is a lot of organizational culture that is impacted by the fact that you've got people who feel like they can't speak up. They feel like if I speak up, I get punished, or yeah, you know, so I just need to keep the peace. And that's not good in workplaces. It's not good, you know. So going out and being able to prioritize the things that you need and to actually voice the things that you really feel need to be given a voice is incredibly important to your health and your well-being, but also the way in which teams and organizations are working. So, as we head to the end of this episode, what does it feel like to you? You talked about five years of no people pleasing apart from some relapses. Oh, there's been some relapses in no people. There's been some people pleasing, but not as much. What does that look like and feel like to you?

SPEAKER_00 33:52

And can I say just on that, I will come back to answer your question. But when I when I think about there are some tricky people in life in which you do have to say things well that I feel that I have to say things that aren't necessarily true uh or completely genuine in order to get past that moment. It's not so they think a certain way about me. Actually, it's to potentially avoid maybe a conflict that I have no interest in being part of. So wouldn't it be nice to think, yeah, I think we need to be really nuanced about it because there are some things that are not worth my time and energy.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

I'm really talking about the people pleasing in terms of it getting in the way of genuine connection with somebody. So a real friend, or in my case.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

So you're not saying, like, we're not saying, hey, just because you think that person at work is a fuckwit, you should tell them they're a fuckwit. That's not because it'd be people pleasing and lying to not tell them. We're not saying that, okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Sorry. I think HR would have a field day with that one. I think we've got to be smart about it, definitely. Um, and you can be professional at the same time. That's really important. I'm really talking about avoiding people pleasing that really affects your own health and well-being stuff, but also can affect, you know, so that's sort of that external facing stuff. So saying no to the cupcakes for the faint because I really don't fucking want to. And that's two hours of my time away from my children kind of deal. That's a great, I love my reasons for saying no to that. So I'm very comfortable with that. Um, I'm also talking about, I think in my case, an example would be I have a wonderful relationship with my mum now. There was, there have been times in the past when we've it's been more tense, I suppose. And I think what I did for a long time when I sort of started a journey of this more self-examination and insight into this stuff. And it has been a journey because it's been a slow learning curve and I've had to do lots of recalibration along the way.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

It's the big work.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Oh, it's it's really big work, it's really confronting. Um, but I can say as I work through it that it is totally worth it. Yeah. And I had to ask myself in some of the tensions in our relationship, what is my role here? What is my responsibility? It's not all about, oh, she said this and she did that, and this is her, and blah, blah, blah. No, actually, I think a lot of the tension in our relationship came from me having expectations of her, of that relationship, that actually I had never discussed with her and she'd never agreed to. And then I would people please and say things perhaps that may have not been true and genuine, or um, you know, because of the expectations that I had about how she would respond or not respond, I don't know, a whole heap of shit in that space. Once I started getting real and a bit more genuine and I allowed, how do I articulate this? I wanted to trust that I could be kind and clear and honest. And however she received that information, I was going to be okay. And when I did that, uh what I discovered at the other end, and I was very fortunate because this says more about her than anything, is that her response to me, she met me where I was. And so from there we were able to have more honest conversations. Instead of me trying to say things or do things that I thought she wanted me to say and do, which actually just created this falseness between us. And that was my role. Like I did that. That was my responsibility. So one of the biggest things in the people-pleasing journey was about being able to say, you know, what do I want in this situation? How do I want to be and show up in our relationship? And being and doing that for real, taking the risk that it wasn't what she wanted to hear, and knowing that I would be okay, even if she told me that's not what I want to hear.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

And it turns out that I was lucky enough that it has worked to our advantage and our relationship is better because of it. Which is massive, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Because that's the biggest relationship, really. Yes. In your life. It's your first one.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Exactly. Lifelong. I think the mother-daughter relationship can be incredibly complicated. And I hope every day I'm not fucking up my daughters in that way. Yeah. We all are. Um, so I think for I think on that path, what it has done for me, and just thinking about that relationship in itself, uh, far less stress and anxiety. I'm not carrying around this continual pit in my stomach uh around it. And it was of my own making. I can't believe how much of it was my own making. So that has been life-changing in terms of the external stuff, really taking that moment to pause and think, is this really what I want? Do I like my reasons? And acting accordingly has meant that, and I would say even more so this year, I have shed a lot of things that I didn't want in my life. And I do feel much better for it in lots of different ways. It's not easy though, it's very challenging.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

No, it's amazing. And you powerful. Um, probably the same, I would say. Not exactly the same, but um, but doing the big work, I guess how it feels is at the beginning, it's really, really, really uncomfortable. And you have to sit in some pretty uncomfortable areas with yourself and your feelings. And that's the only way through it. You have to go through it and do the and do the big work. So I have, I've been quite open about the fact that I have done therapy, of course. I be, and I think that has been actually really important for me because it does force you to examine where some of your own unhelpful beliefs have come from, stemmed from, and to just let you examine them differently. Letting go of some of those expectations of others that are just never going to be realised.

unknown 40:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

Has been really liberating. And yeah, I just feel so much better these days. Yay. Just being able to express a bigger range of emotions, I guess, and not be as concerned about how other people will receive it is liberating.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

Yeah, it is. Or not feeling like you have to hide from something or avoid. Yeah, yeah. And that doesn't feel good either.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

No, no, no. And I was literally living in a place where I remember the practitioner that I'm seeing saying to me, How often are you feeling anxious? And I told her it was like, This is something I feel every day. And she was like, Oh, no. We're gonna do something about that, you know. And then great, and now like I can probably count on one hand how often I'm feeling it on a, you know, kind of weekly, fortnightly basis. But it's not just the fact that you go, Great, I kind of have a name for this now, this anxiety thing, and you can do the medication, you can do all the things. What actually makes the big difference is doing the work and actually understanding your own reasons for whether it's people pleasing or just beliefs that you hold about yourself, you know, they originate from somewhere, understanding it, deconstructing it, finding peace with things that you didn't even realize you haven't made peace with. I think that's the way that we don't pass those things on to our daughters when we don't realize it. Yeah, we have to do the big work ourselves. And I just think sometimes that involves other people. Sometimes you have to say, you know what, this this shit is big and I need help. So yeah, I I just think it feels so much better when you're not doing that.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Yep. And saying it out loud to someone is immensely uh it's it's a huge relief. It can be liberating at the same time. You can also discover some things aren't as big as I thought they were when I say it out loud. Absolutely. And absolutely to hear from someone, right, we're gonna deal with that. Wow. Yeah, long-changing.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

That's absolutely, absolutely life-changing. Like, you know, this is uh trivial and I don't mean it to be sound silly. But I look now and I've got a little notification on my messages that says 49. It's a little red notification. I tell you what, that used to just probably send cold blood through my entire body. It'd be like, who have I not responded to? What do I need to do? Oh, this person's just asked me to do something else. I must do that right now. You know, you rule your whole life by like, what does my calendar say that I need to go and do? And now this person's asked me to do this, and I can't possibly let them down. And you always end up letting someone down. Yep. And you always, always end up let letting yourself down. Yeah. And it's really nice to just Not feel like I'm in that cycle at all now.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

Doesn't mean that I won't occasionally, as you do, come up against situations in which you have that compulsion to people, please, and that you have to make decisions about what do I want out of this? How does this feel to me? What am I doing this for? I think that's really reasonable to do that, but to not be in the cycle of it. Yeah, that's super powerful. Yeah.

unknown 44:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

I think a lot of us are without even realizing.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Yeah. And I think as well, the the worst part if you're stuck in this people-pleasing cycle or as a way of life, that it can be for some people is actually the trust you lose in yourself. You can't make good decisions. The decisions that you do make, you are constantly finding that you're disliking yourself for making those decisions. That is really harmful to us over time. To not trust yourself, to make the decisions that actually bring you peace and harmony as well is a really destructive thing.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

So you need to disrupt it. There's got to be something that becomes the disruption.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

That then gives you the head space, yes, to sit in all of the ugliness, but also to go, I am going to step out of this. What's the wheel? Hamster wheel. Hamster wheel. I'm going to step out of this hamster wheel. Oh, now I'm off it. A little bit dizzy, feels pretty yuck, but it'll pass. And then I'll just deal with whatever the next little obstacle is.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

That's right. And the more you do it, the less uh invested you are in other people's disappointments. The easier it gets. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

So I reckon. Oh, you get to own your disappointment, not me. Exactly. So bless you. To everyone listening, I think that probably is a good way to wrap it up and say, today, Sarah and I are saying, go out and disappoint someone. Do it for you.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

You have our full permission. Yeah. Redefine it's not a good thing. Redefine it as a good thing. You get to be selfish so you can fill your own cup up, live with less anxiety, less obligation, uh, and put your energy where you most want it to go, which is you and your self-care and the people around you that you most love.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Do what you need to do to make yourself a better person to be around, which is looking after yourself and listening to yourself. And our glimmers today is we've actually been able to record two episodes, which we have often dreamt about and never been able to do, because our children are entertaining themselves somewhere. No, they are. We we have cited them, we promise, but they are entertaining each other. And um, somehow we've managed to get two episodes knocked out. So huge glimmer, shared glimmer.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Love the glimmer. So we really did want to have this people-pleasing episode because it is something that both Lauren and I, I think, have uh navigated slash struggle with throughout our adult lives, probably you know, childhood lives as well. And we do know that other women in our circles also struggle with this. So in case this is the conversation that you all needed, you're welcome. We'd love to hear more about other people's uh people pleasing and how you're managing to navigate it if you are a recovering people pleaser. But also how you've disappointed someone. I really want to know how everyone's disappointed someone because I'm sure I've got a I've got a list as long as your arm. And do you know what? I kind of wear it as a bit of a badge of honor.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Great. Ray John. Ray John.