Episode 9: Doing Business on Your Own Terms: A Conversation with Dr. Hayley D. Quinn

We talk a lot about self-compassion like it's a nice idea -- something to aspire to on a good day. This conversation with Dr. Hayley D. Quinn goes a lot deeper than that.

Hayley is a mindset and wellbeing coach, speaker, author, and former clinical psychologist with nearly two decades of clinical experience. She's also a late-diagnosed autistic woman with ADHD who's spent years figuring out what it actually means to work in a way that honours who you are -- and she brings all of that to this conversation.

We cover a lot of ground, including why self-compassion is so often misread as softness (it isn't -- courage and wisdom are at the heart of it), the three flows of compassion and why receiving it tends to be the one most high-achieving women struggle with most, and what happens in midlife when the identity you've built around caring for others starts to shift.

Hayley also talks about her book From Self-Neglect to Self-Compassion -- how it came to be, what it's really asking of readers, and why she included guided meditations you can record in your own voice.

Plus -- practical stuff. How Hayley structures her work week, why white space in your diary isn't a luxury, body doubling as a real productivity tool, and why she's doing pottery on purpose even when it's imperfect.

There's a lot in this one. Take what's useful and leave the rest -- as Hayley would say.

In this episode we talk about:

• Why compassion is built on courage, not kindness alone
• The three flows of compassion -- and why receiving help is often the hardest
• Midlife identity shifts as an opening, not just a loss
• How Hayley structures her work as a neurodivergent business owner
• The case for white space, rest, and the occasional nap (nappetizer, anyone?)
• From Self-Neglect to Self-Compassion -- what Hayley hopes readers take away
• Finding joy outside of work, even when work is something you love

Connect with Dr. Hayley D. Quinn:

Website https://drhayleydquinn.com

From Self-Neglect to Self-Compassion Book https://drhayleydquinn.com/product/book/

Podcast https://drhayleydquinn.com/podcast/

Free Resource  https://drhayleydquinn.com/resources/

Instagram https://instagram.com/drhayleydquinn/

LinkedIn Linkedin.com/in/dr-hayley-d-quinn-43386533

Facebook https://facebook.com/drhayleydquinnbrisbane

You can connect with Belinda:

Insta: @belindabayliss.co

Website: www.belindabayliss.co

Facebook: Belinda Bayliss co

Transcript

Belinda 0:00

hi, I'm Belinda. If you're a woman in business somewhere in your forties or fifties, juggling probably more than you should and still trying to sustain a business you care about, this podcast might just be for you. Welcome to Gen X Women in Business.

Audio Only - All Participants 0:17

I'm so excited to welcome Dr. Hayley D. Quinn to the podcast today. Hayley is a mindset and wellbeing coach, speaker, author, and former clinical psychologist who knows firsthand what it costs if you keep ignoring your own needs. As the author of From Self Neglect to Self Compassion, host of the popular Welcome to Self Unmasked podcast, and past president of Compassionate Mind Australia, Hayley brings both lived experience and nearly two decades of clinical experience to the conversation women in business need most. I'm so excited to have Hayley with us today. Let's go

Belinda 0:54

So welcome, Hayley. I'm so excited to have you here today. Thank you for your time.

Hayley 0:59

Thank you so much for inviting me on.

Belinda 1:03

I know that we've just heard a little bit about, your professional, accolades, but I'm hoping you could tell us a little bit more about yourself and how you work.

Hayley 1:12

Okay. In terms of the work I do or how I like to work? Oh, both. Either. Okay. So, um, as you mentioned, I'm a former clinical psychologist and I work as a mindset and wellbeing coach. I work a lot with CEOs, leaders, founders of businesses, and I do that in a one-on-one coaching with people. I run a group program as well, and I've got different sort of offerings. But I guess the way I like to work is in a way that suits me and my neurotype. I'm late diagnosed autistic woman with ADHD, so I've spent a lot of time really working out what works for me and I guess how I can bring the best of me to my workspace. So it might be where I'm working, what times I'm working, sometimes even what I'm wearing when I'm working. So there's lots of things like that.

Belinda 2:06

Oh, I absolutely adore that that question went two ways. so thank you for leaning into it. So if we come back to the work bit, and we'll start there, because I'm also really curious. I'm a huge advocate of the sort of CEO female founder flexibility, which I think is, is that second part of that question. But in the first part, I'm wondering what sort of drew you to that work of the compassion space and working with business? Sort of what is it that, that attracted you?

Hayley 2:34

So I had done a lot of training in compassion focused therapy when I was a psychologist. I was first exposed to CFT in 2013. And did lots of different training, and was very fortunate to be mentored by Paul Gilbert, the founder of compassion focus therapy, and I was training other allied health professionals, psychologists in compassion focus therapy as well. When I decided to leave psychology, my business had kind of evolved that I was doing my clinical practice, but I was also doing business coaching at that point as well. And that had come about... In 2016, I'd had a really significant burnout, and then I'd spent a lot of years really working out what does it mean to be successful in your work but honor your wellbeing at the same time, and my learning and embodying of the compassion work had been a huge piece in that. So people had been coming to me and saying, "I want to start a business," or, "I wanna change how I'm doing my business because I feel like I'm doing it in a way that doesn't work for me. I'm either burnt out or I feel like I'm getting burnt out." So I'd just naturally fallen into this kind of work with people, and the more I did it, the more I loved it. So I made the choice at the end of 2024 to stop being a registered psychologist and go all in on my business coaching, my training, speaking, and writing. And yeah, so it really just evolved quite naturally. You know, the, the compassion focus therapy piece had been... When I look now, I was late diagnosed, but when I look back now, it's like that was my special interest. Um, so I, I'd done lots of deep diving into that. And also, having done that training and really embodied it, I had absolutely changed the relationship I had with myself, and it showed me that the relationship we have with ourselves is so fundamental to everything in our work, business, and life. And it allowed me to really understand how I needed to work in a way that suited me and took care of me, as well as allowing me to continue to be the ambitious, high-achieving woman that I am.

Belinda 4:50

Yeah. No, I love that. I love that. I, I know you can speak to this, and I also know that it's something that I challenge, but there's that very much business mindset that you need to sort of work hard, play hard, and self-compassion is weakness and, and those... Yeah, I- it, it still exists. I'm curious as how, how would you sort of speak to that, like that self-compassion isn't a space of weakness?

Hayley 5:20

Yeah, I think that is a really common myth, and one hopefully that, uh, little by little I'm helping to also change. What we need to understand is what compassion really means, and I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about that. I think people think it's just about being kind and kinda letting yourself off the hook and going a bit easy, and it's really not. The heart of compassion is courage, strength, and wisdom. And sometimes compassion may be about being kind. Sometimes compassion may be about saying, "You know what? You need to take it easy today and rest." And sometimes compassion is about really taking the kind of challenging and difficult actions you need to take so that you prevent suffering in the future. Yeah. So, you know, there, there is nothing weak about compassion at all.

Belinda 6:12

No, no. A- and one of the things that, that I sort of lean into is that our self-critic and our self-kindness often want us to get to the same place. It's just using a different pathway. One is using that kindness which is going to be much gentler on our nervous system and, and not move to that space, and the other one is likely to trigger that nervous system response. So I think that we need to do it differently, as you're saying.

Hayley 6:41

Yeah. I think an important point as well with the self-critic is understanding that the threat system's been activated. So when we can kind of slow down and be curious about, "Well, why has the critic shown up? Why has my threat system been activated in this moment?" we can then actually do the things we need that are actually gonna be effective for us. It might be that, you know, we're about to put something out on social media and there's a fear of judgment- Yeah and it activates the threat system, and then the, the kind of inner critical voice starts happening. So I think that's really important to understand, is that this is a response from your threat system. So what is it that that's trying to tell you?

Belinda 7:23

Yeah, absolutely. Moving that self-compassion work through, a lot of my listeners sit in that Gen X woman, millennial space. Do you find that self-compassion is something they're more accepting of, just in your general observation? Or is it, Are they having to learn new behaviors in the space?

Hayley 7:46

Yeah, I think it can be really challenging for many people, no matter, no matter what our age, and in some ways I think perhaps the sort of Gen X generation can struggle with it even more. Um, almost like the older we are, the more challenging it can be. Um, I also speak to women who are sort of, like, in their 60s, 70s, and 80s and, um- There can be these real challenges because it's a shift of, you know, focusing back on ourselves. And I talk about this a lot in my book around, you know, we're socialized from such a young age, particularly as women, to be other focused. Like, we're given dolls with bottles and nappies and tea sets, and perhaps- Kitchens you know, all that sort of stuff. So it makes sense that we kind of grow up thinking about what do other people need first. Thankfully, there's a lot more talk around self-compassion. It's become, you know, popular on social media, and people are more curious and more open to it. But it can be difficult, and I think it's important to acknowledge that because we know that when we try and sort of practice these skills of self-compassion, it can activate the threat system. And if we're aware of that going in, it doesn't kind of shock us so much. But the other important piece in that is whilst there's lots and lots of talk about self-compassion, which is fantastic, we need to also understand the three flows of compassion. So there's compassion that we give out to other people, which most people I know are really, really good at, sometimes to the point that it's they're doing that too much and they're completely neglecting themselves. Then we've got the self-compassion piece. But then another really significant piece is receiving compassion from other people, and I find a lot of founders, a lot of high-achieving women actually really struggle, not only to ask for help, but then if they manage to ask for help or they're offered help, they struggle to receive it. Yeah. Yep. So that's a lot of the work I help people do as well.

Belinda 9:46

Yeah. That absolutely resonates-

Hayley 9:49

Mm

Belinda 9:49

for me, and I can even think of in the last week where that's shown up for me- Yeah in a space where there will be an opportunity for compassion to be offered, and I'm just like, "Oh, I'm opting out. I'm out." so yeah, that, that space, it's... I think that you're, you know, you've touched on such an important point, that we're socialized in so many ways to be other focused, that turning that light inward is sometimes really tricky and challenging.

Hayley 10:12

Mm. Yeah, absolutely.

Belinda 10:15

And I think the other thing too is, you know, as we age and our estrogen depletes and we no longer have the same brain functionality around it, that that can be really challenging too. It's where my belief is that's where part of that feeling of loss of identity happens in midlife women, because all of a sudden, if I'm not caring about everyone else as much, or if I'm feeling I have an empty nest, all the challenges- Mm that come, not necessarily with, you know, brain function, but just life circumstances. If I'm not caring for others, then there's a gap, but caring for myself feels challenging.

Hayley 10:50

Yeah, absolutely. It's a really interesting time, isn't it? Because there, there is this shift in identity, and there can be these gaps. And it's a prime time to kind of start practicing compassion for self. I mean, any time in life is a great time- to practice compassion for self, I'll say that. But certainly at this midlife point, I think it really is a prime time because it's a bit like puberty, isn't it? We're gonna go through major, major changes again. So if you've got a compassionate kind of relationship with yourself, it's going to be so much easier. Um, not necessarily easy, but easier. Yeah. But not only are there's the gap, there's also this, uh, I think this kind of exciting opening of, well, actually, if I don't know what my identity is anymore, I can recreate what I want it to be.

Belinda 11:38

Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. And I'll often sit with women as when they say, "I'm not sure who I am"- Yeah my response is often, "Isn't that exciting?" Mm. Because that means you've got a point to change or to pivot or to transition or whatever word we're using, which is, is what you just described there. even if it's challenging at times.

Hayley 11:56

Yeah. So it's that thing of, feelings aren't mutually exclusive. We can be feeling really challenged by the transitions and the changes and really excited about the possibilities, or even just a little bit excited. We don't have to assume- Yeah everyone's gonna be really excited about this. It can be a really, really challenging time.

Belinda 12:14

Well, fear and excitement often come from the same sort of point. I think that something else that, that sort of shows up for women is the who am I piece, but how do I act differently? And then there's where do I go from here with that? So I can start that self-compassion, but what's the flow and effect? So what do you feel some of the people who move into practicing an improved sense of self-compassion, what are the benefits for them?

Hayley 12:43

Oh my gosh. Where, where do you start with that? I mean, there are, there are so many. I think, you know, speaking from my own experience and the, and the people I've worked with over the years, is the difference in the relationship that we have with ourselves and what that can mean in terms of accessing our own wisdom, making decisions in a different way within the relationships you have in your personal life, the decisions in, in your business. I think one of the things that I've found, certainly personally and professionally, is when we bring compassion into, like, the asset bank of business, the way we make decisions and the types of decisions we make tend to benefit our businesses, our clients, ourselves. So I think it, it's the sort of thing that flows on through all different dimensions of your life. I think it can allow us to- Take care of our health better as we age. That's been a really significant one for me. Um, it allows us to pay attention to what we need more. In my earlier life, I spent a lot of time avoiding myself. I didn't wanna be in connection with myself. I found it very painful, and I'll often say that the, the kind of difficulty with that is when we avoid ourselves, we tend to make decisions that lead to more pain and suffering anyway. So if we're going to feel some pain and suffering and discomfort, for me, I always think isn't it better to actually have that be in service of something that's long-term gonna be in your benefit?

Belinda 14:34

Yeah. And I think the tricky thing is there is that when we are in that disconnect and those decisions we make are harmful, there's almost like a, "Well, you made this decision," and it, it reinforces itself. It's a, it's a horrible cycle and spiral that is potentially sitting there.

Hayley 14:50

Absolutely. I mean, prime time for the self-critic to show up, right? Yeah, and reinforce all those old stories and beliefs that, you know, we, we hold throughout our lives.

Belinda 15:01

Yeah. Yep. So at the beginning you mentioned that this type of work and, and acknowledged that for you working differently has been a real source of value. Can you share a little bit more about that for us?

Hayley 15:15

So yeah, I mean, for me, and I, and I review this on an ongoing basis as well. I think it's really important that we don't sort of think, "Okay, I'm gonna figure out what's the best way to work for myself," um, whether, whether it's for yourself or for somebody else, but what's the best way for me to work, and then kind of set and forget. For me, I will go back and review, like, how is my diary looking? What are the sort of spaces in my diary that are allowing me to not be constantly on? Um, particularly as a neurodivergent woman and a high-achieving woman, I can have a tendency to want to do all the things and do them all right now. So I have to keep an eye on that.

Belinda 15:56

Yep, in abundance and perfection.

Hayley 15:59

So then I will look and think, "Okay, where is the best time for me to be doing different types of work?" But I can't just set that up as, okay, I'm gonna do that forevermore, because that changes for me. And I guess it's about having, um, in terms of that part for me, having a loose kind of schedule, something that gives me a little bit of a train tracks, but knowing that if I need to, I can pull the handle and switch to a different track, because on different days I might feel differently. And I think this is particularly important during that sort of perimenopause, menopause transition as well, because you can wake up feeling like a different person every day, right? Yeah. There may be times when I feel like I need to go to my wardrobe and put on clothes that would be more work clothes, you know, quote marks, because that is gonna give me a message to my brain of like, okay, we're, we're in serious business mode right now. On other days, it might be that I'm in my pajamas under a blanket on the couch with my laptop on my lap, and there might be some show on the telly that isn't something I actually particularly want to watch or pay attention to, but that background noise is gonna be really helpful for me to help me focus on the work I need to do. Now, on another day, I might need complete silence. So it's

Belinda 17:28

really, it's really tuning in, isn't it?

Hayley 17:31

Absolutely. Like, it's that getting to know yourself, understanding who you are, how you work, what works best for you and what doesn't. And for me, as an autistic woman with ADHD, it's not like one particular way. Like, I, I have these kind of conflicting selves that, uh, need different things, and sometimes work against each other and sometimes work in beautiful harmony. Um, so yeah, for me it's really about establishing what are the things I know to be helpful.

Belinda 18:07

Yeah. So there's a couple of things you mentioned in there that are quite practical. So environment, you know, right down to what am I wearing and how am I feeling about this. Have there been any other sort of practical tips that have worked for you that might, others might benefit from? So

Hayley 18:24

I will... And, and again, it, for me, it changes, so I, I am very flexible with these things. But having some outlines of what I want to be doing, but making sure that that isn't too many things on a page, because I think when we, we open a list that's got like 70 million things on it, can just, you're just overwhelmed before you even start. The other thing I've done over time is with different people in my life, I've done, um, either in-person body doubling or I've done online. I'm actually starting some of that through my business, some co-working sessions for people, because I know how valuable that's been for me. Yeah. Just knowing that you're in this space where you're not necessarily doing the same work as somebody, but you're working with other people at the same time, and we know from the research that that can be really powerful. Um, I think some of the other things have been, or one of the most important things for me is making sure that there's white space or rest space- In between clients or tasks, but also some larger portions of that I personally need. I can't work. You know, I used to work many, many hours, and at one point in my life I was working Monday to Friday, and I was working a job on a Saturday. Um, I look back now and think, well, it's hardly surprising I burnt out and that I felt so miserable. So now I, um... I've just recently changed, like we're recording this on a Monday. I don't always see podcasting as work because it's like catching up, particularly when it's somebody I know, like yourself, is like, you know, getting together and having a chat. But I've just changed my calendar so that Mondays I no longer book in any client work. I changed my diary a few years back to suit something else, and then just got in the habit of doing it, and the other day I thought, hang on a minute, why am I still working Mondays? I don't like working Mondays. So I've changed it. So it's those things of prioritizing... Well, first being aware of how much rest or white space to go do something else you need, and then kind of prioritizing that in the diary as well.

Belinda 20:47

Yeah. And some of those things in the, in the traditional business land can be really confronting to sort of, I'm not gonna take clients on Monday or, or, you know, the things that we've put in. I know that, um, when I started my psychology practice, I felt it was decadent that I didn't start till 10:00 AM because it meant I could go cycling in the morning. But I never really reflected on the fact that I actually didn't leave the practice until 8:30 at night. Saturday was my short day, and that was like 10:00 till 2:30, and that felt decadent. now it's, it's very different. I have deliberate 15-minute gaps between my clients that I see. I and it's very deliberate practice, um, and from a number of perspectives. But that can be really challenging when you are working, you know, an hour equals an income. Absolutely.

Hayley 21:39

So-

Belinda 21:39

Absolutely. You

Hayley 21:40

don't- And that's the thing, and I always acknowledge this when I'm talking, is I acknowledge my own privilege. I've got the opportunity to be very flexible, and do the hours that I want to do. What I think is also important to understand is when people think about rest, there's a lot of, I guess, myths a- again around rest, and that perhaps rest is unnecessary and perhaps it's even lazy, and you shouldn't be resting until you've got all the things done. But we know that when we actually rest, we can come back more productive. So depending on the sort of tasks, I mean, obviously if you've got to, if you have to cer- earn a certain amount of income from a certain amount of clients, it's slightly different. But I'd also say you, you would also want to look at the structure of your business and your business model and your pricing and those sort of things. Every single woman I've ever worked with has pretty much underpriced their services. So there are things you can do. And, um, understanding that rest is actually really productive.

Belinda 22:47

Mm-hmm.

Hayley 22:48

You know, it's essential. When you think about machines in factories, they don't run 24/7, 365 days of the year. They turn them off. They maintain them so that they can keep using those machines for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. We need to take care of ourselves and maintain ourselves as well.

Belinda 23:08

And I think it, I think there's another layer in there when we do hit perimenopause and menopause, that for a lot of women, sleep is no longer quality. Yeah. I might be in bed, but I also might have the 3:00 AM wake-up or have trouble getting to sleep, and then we're trying to function the same way through the day. one of my recent changes to the way I work is, permission to nap- Yeah has been a, a new one, and I saw a really great reel that called it a nappetizer, um, and I'm running with that. Yeah. So it is about that tuning into self and what is it that I need, and sometimes I need to put my head down for 30 minutes so that I can move on to the next piece- Absolutely with some clarity and some energy.

Hayley 23:46

Absolutely. I love a nap.

Belinda 23:50

And, and I think that there's a real value in, in how you show up, and I want to really highlight the way you model. I remember your book launch day, um, if I've got this correct, coming out in your PJs because you were so excited, and that you just showed up incredibly authentically. Like, "I was gonna get dressed, but I'm here now and this is my book and it's released, and I'm so excited." Um, and that, that was just so joyous and authentic, so I really wanna highlight the beauty of just being you. Thank you. But I'd also like to touch on your book. Tell us about your book.

Hayley 24:25

Oh, I'd love to tell you about my book. I love it. She- I love your book too she's still new. She's still new. So, at the time we're recording this, she's only just over three months old. so I was actually writing a book about four years ago that was, As you know, I was doing a lot of work in the self-care for therapists space, and I had a group that I ran, and I was writing a book- And it just didn't feel like the right book at the time, so I put it aside. And then at the beginning of last year, I started writing a book and thought, "Well, that's okay. I'll do a self-care for businesswomen book instead." So I was about 10,000 words into that book, and this title just kept coming to me, From Self-Neglect to Self-Compassion, and I tried to ignore it and keep going with the other book. And then I mentioned the title to three different people, and each one of them said to me, "Oh my gosh, I've got goosebumps." And I was like, "Okay, I gotta write this book." So being a high-achieving woman with ADHD, I was like, "I know, I'll write both books at the same time." Thankfully, I came to my senses and decided that was not a good idea, so I put the other book away and went with this one. And it really is... There- there's some of my own story in this, but this is not a book about me. This really is a book about the reader and a way for me to support people through what I know has been really helpful for me. But I also say in this, this is not a prescription. This is an invitation, and there'll be things in, in the book that are helpful for people and things in the book that won't be helpful for people, and that's really okay. So it's kinda like take what's helpful and leave the rest. I added through the book, um, eight meditations, which you access with a QR code, and I, I really love that addition and I've had some really beautiful feedback about that. I included the scripts from the meditations as well as this ability to kinda use the QR code and have me guide you through the meditation. And the reason I included the scripts, and I put this in the book, it gives you the opportunity to record yourself reading these compassionate meditations and then play them back in your own voice. Because for a lot of people, when we're starting these practices or, or not even when we're starting, sometimes when we're into these, this practice, it can feel really hard to know what to say to yourself to be compassionate. And I found this really helpful in my early stages many years ago, was to actually record myself saying these things other people said would be helpful so that I started to hear my own compassionate voice. So I've given people both options there. But it really takes people through understanding what it means to be human, what it unders- means to be a human with a tricky mind, what we want for our lives, 'cause I think we really set that aside. And I think midlife is a time when this, like you talked to a bit earlier, a time when we kinda go, "Hang on a minute. Who are, who am I? What's my identity? What do I want in my life?" So there's this opportunity to kind of explore that, think about what you've left behind that you never pursued, think about perhaps new things that you want to pursue. But then how to do things differently because we can't just think, "Well, I, I want these things," and then try and achieve them in the way we've been living our life, because often that doesn't work.

Belinda 27:58

Mm.

Hayley 27:59

Absolutely. And then to sort of plan forward of what, what are we gonna do with this? So hopefully it's a really supportive journey for people to kind of dip in and out if they want. I've had other people who've really dived into this as a real project and had some beautiful outcomes for themselves. Um, but yeah, I'm really excited to be out there. It's, it's being picked up in different places around the world, which has just been mind-blowing, like India and Croatia and South Africa and Canada and the UK and the US and here. Um, yeah- Yeah it's, it's been a beautiful project. I feel very grateful that the book chose me.

Belinda 28:39

No, that's beautiful, and actually I was speaking to someone yesterday from the United States and mentioning your book, and, um- Oh, thank you my intention is to gift them a copy, so watch out for that order. but yeah, I think that, uh, those meditations, as you mentioned, are really beautiful because the meditation space can be really tricky, and there are so many ways that we can meditate, but if we're starting from a self-compassion space, if you jump on Insight Timer, all of a sudden you've probably got 10 to 20,000 meditations to choose from. Yeah. So quite easily. Instant overwhelm. It's like, what? Oh, absolutely. I think there's something like 250 meditation pieces on there now, and while that is a beautiful resource, if we're brand new or if it's new to us in a space of doing it differently, because a lot of people are quite familiar with mantras that you put on your mirror in the bathroom, but this is a deeper thing. This is actually more connected. It's not external. It's really an internal thing from what you're saying, and I think that having that guided space from yourself, they're already trusting your words, to trust your words in that meditation space I think is such a beautiful gift, um, and a really beautiful insight in your book that you included it.

Hayley 29:53

Thank you.

Belinda 29:55

as somebody who sits alongside and who had pre-orders, I promote it wherever I can. I'm a big fan of the way you work and how you work, and also that you've made it more accessible to so many people.

Hayley 30:06

Thank you. I really appreciate it, and I really appreciate you. You've always been such a, a, a big supporter of mine, and that means a lot to me. Thank you.

Belinda 30:14

So if somebody were to pick your book up, what would be the thing that you would like them to take away from it? I know that's a big question.

Hayley 30:27

That they matter and that their needs matter, and that this isn't about fixing themselves. They, they are enough right now. This is about them having the opportunity to decide how they want their life to be.

Belinda 30:43

Yeah. That's incredibly powerful. We are told so many times a day from every social media point, from every YouTube, from people who have qualifications and people who have no qualifications exactly how to fix your life. Mm-hmm. If this is you, here's the answer. And I think that reflecting that we find those answers within, they're not going to be externally- Yeah sort of dictated to us is really powerful.

Hayley 31:08

Yeah. And particularly for neurodivergent people, you know, the messaging is, you don't fit, you're not doing it the right way, you should do it differently. And it's like, no, you get to do it your way. Um, and your way will be absolutely the right way for you.

Belinda 31:25

Yeah. Yeah. And I, I truly believe that that extends to women as well.

Hayley 31:29

Mm.

Belinda 31:30

Because for so many years business has been so, I guess, male-centric in its- Yeah in its way. That, that bro space is, you know, there's coaching out there, but they're 20-year-olds who have, you know, super high testosterone and energy to match, and, and tell you how to do it. Um, you know, you've got things like 75 Hard out there. That just, that gives me a visceral reaction. Um, why would you wanna do 75 days of hard things? I don't, you know, I don't get the mindset there. And I think that women wanting to work differently and knowing that they can work differently is a really powerful thing, and I think that whether it sits in neurodiversity or whether it sits in, you know, just the fact that we're gender... We have different brains. Yeah. Although that didn't get studied until, you know, the last decade or two. Um, but those things are really important, and not to judge ourselves by a standard that was never made for us.

Hayley 32:26

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, we, we have to understand that the system we work within is patriarchal, capitalist, white-centric, ableist. The list could go on. Um, so it- Yep it is coming back to us and saying, "Well, how does this work for me?" And some of, some of the things that are out there and the way society wants you to be and work is gonna work for you, and some are not, and can be really, really harming. Like, I did my best to fit into how I thought I should be, what was expected of me. Um, I literally used to call myself a chameleon- I would just change. Wherever I was, I would change. And now, one of the biggest compliments I get, and I get it often, is, as you said before, uh, I'm authentic in how I turn up, I walk my talk, because I've discovered who I am and how I want to be, and I really like it, and I don't want to do it different. I don't want to have to squeeze myself in to fit something else. Now, that's not to say you don't behave in different ways in different contexts sometimes, but fundamentally I'm always me.

Belinda 33:36

Yeah. Yeah. My newsletter went out last week about the, you know, the gifts of midlife, and one of them for me has been dropping my expectations that are other focused- Mm so what does someone else expect me to be or how do they expect me to act, and actually just being comfortable as long as I'm aligning with myself. Um, but I did put a proviso in there. It says I don't- doesn't mean I'm running out and breaking the law. Mm-hmm. Um, so that's we're not going there. But it is, it is doing things in those ways, which is really powerful. You know, my early career was a, as a teacher. Mm. And come reporting time, we would have a staff room which was predominantly female, and we would have the few men come in, and two days they're like, "Oh, you've got my reporting done. It's submitted. Where's yours?" But the reality is for most of them, they'd gone home, they'd put themselves in their study- Mm they'd done their reporting, they'd come out to a dinner on the table, and they'd put themselves back in and, and got their reporting done. And we would reflect that we would go home and do all the things that needed to be done, including the dinner, and if we had children, the, the bathing and, and the bedtime, and all those type of things. And then we would sit down somewhere between sort of 8:30 and quarter to 9:00 and work out how many reports we could get completed that night. Um, and the running joke in our staff room was we all need a wife.

Hayley 34:53

Absolutely. Do you know, it's such an important point because there is a lot of information, whether it's podcasts, whether it's books, that is information coming from men who have huge support, or also from people, no matter the gender, where there's a lot of support in the background at home that's being paid for. So it could be that somebody's married and they've got a very supportive spouse, or that there's actually things that are being paid for out there, and I think that's always really important for us to acknowledge. Like, I was a single parent with no support, or some limited support, for 13 years. Like, I get what it means to have to do what you do without time and space. I also get what it means to do that in a way that literally wrecks you. Like, my burnout experience was horrific. So I've learnt ways to do all that differently and take into account the different things that we need to think about, because we don't always have- the support that we might need. some of that might be because people struggle to ask for help, but some of it might be that's just not available. Um- Yeah, yeah so I think that's such a good point. It's, it's all very good to see people achieving online or doing things or having conversations, "Well, I got all this done," and, and then it's like, yeah, but what, what have you got going on in the background and how does that look compared to what I've got going on in the background or with my health or whatever it might be- Mm or a particular disability. So these are really important nuanced conversations that have to be had so people don't feel inadequate, incompetent, like they're failing. Everybody is doing the best they can under the circumstances they're in with the knowledge, skills, and resources they have, and when we have a compassionate relationship with ourselves, we can keep coming back to that reminder as well- Yeah saying, "Well, actually, given my circumstances and what I'm working with, I'm doing really, really well."

Belinda 36:55

Yeah. And I think it's also important to note that it is an ongoing piece of work. Absolutely.

Hayley 36:59

Absolutely. And I mean, I, I started... I read my first book on compassion when I was at university in 2008. So what's that? Nearly 20 years. And then I did in-depth training in compassion focus therapy from 2013 onwards, and I am still evolving and practicing with this. Um, this is... We, we have ongoing relationships with other people, and they change, and we have to meet them where those relationships are, and we choose them or we don't as we go. We have to do the same with ourselves. We'll have to do it till we take our last breath.

Belinda 37:36

Yeah. Which is also... It, it sounds challenging, but it's also joyous. Mm. Because if we're not evolving, then there's, what's the point? Mm. That's a very harsh mantra, but that is my... I very much- No, it's true. But no, that, that is my, you know... I think it's important that we are leaning into the human experience and all the things that come with it, and when we don't, then we're stepping away from what makes us human. And that's why I think that continuing to be evolving, even if it's just a, a micro step. And I'm not a fan of the one percenter. Um, I know that 1% makes a difference, but I also think that how it's been set up sometimes is it always needs to be 1%. And I sit with, I sit with alongside women and say, "Actually, you have to remember progress is a dance. Like, it'll be three steps forward, two steps back, wiggle your hips, and off you go again." You know? So- And

Hayley 38:27

sometimes, and sometimes we have to sit out of the dance, right? Absolutely. So that we've got enough energy to come back and have another dance.

Belinda 38:34

Yeah, we absolutely need the pause point. Um, my, my newsletter is actually called The Midweek Pause- Mm um, literally for that point. I know that one of the things that's been coming up on your socials has been moving into things that are new and challenging for you, and I know that there's been some, um, a bit of a, a gym evolution there and, and some pottery. Can you tell us a bit more about what you're doing to sort of find those points and why they're important?

Hayley 39:03

So the gym piece for me is important because 80-year-old Haley really wants to be mobile and to be able to get up and down off the toilet and off a chair and, you know, engage in life. And I was diagnosed with osteopenia a few years ago now.

Belinda 39:21

Mm.

Hayley 39:21

And so I, I, I go to the gym. I do strength training and, and cardio work, and I still struggle with my getting out there walking. Like today, it's pouring down rain and I was like, "Really? I was gonna go for a walk today." So that piece is still something that- Didn't

Belinda 39:36

you buy yourself a raincoat?

Hayley 39:38

I did buy myself a raincoat. But I don't think my raincoat would help me today. You can't even see out the window. Very cool. So the gym piece was I wanted to find something that I could be consistent with for my health. And when I say consistent as a AuDHD-er, I don't mean it's gotta look the same all the time, but that I will keep coming back to it and not have huge gaps in it. And then the pottery, um, I don't know what sparked that. It was a, it was... I think on social media it got me and I thought, "Oh, that sounds like fun and something a bit different." And one of the things that I had said I wanted for this year was for me to have some more joy and some more experiences. So I'd been transitioning from psychology through to my new business from the end of 2024, and anything like that takes a lot of energy and a lot of focus, and I was really kind of, for 2026, I just wanted more joy and some new experiences that weren't work-related. Because I can get caught in the new work stuff and I thought, no, I wanna do something that's not work-related. So I tried a wheel pottery, like wheel-throwing class, which was, um, challenging and fun, and probably not something I will go and continue to do on a regular basis. Because for me as well, I have sensory issues, and some of the stuff with that I didn't find pleasant. But I just went this Saturday and we did the glazing of it, so I'll, I'll get them back in a couple of weeks and see how they are. But also, I kinda made them with imperfections because I wanted them to also be reminders for me that perfection is an illusion. We don't need to do something so it has this perfect outcome. It can be about the process. I mean, part of me was even like, if they don't come out the kiln, it's kind of okay. I'd be a little bit sad, I suppose, 'cause I'd like to see what they look like. But do I need those pots as part of having done that? No, I don't, and that felt really nice as well, 'cause it's not outcome focused. Yeah. It sounds- So I'm just, yeah, I'm just looking for new things to... And, and, you know, for your brain and keep yourself- Yeah thinking and challenged and

Belinda 42:10

Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, I am a, I am a craft fiend, so but with the attention span of a gnat sometimes. That's not quite true. I move into a really, um, period of intense, uh, creative. Mm. And then it's like, "Oh, I'm, I've done with that now." But a lot of the ones I do take up hours. Mm. So this year has been to adopt a couple of things that are smaller. So one is, uh, crocheting. Mm. Uh, 'cause I can find that quite mindful. Um, I s- I can't read a crochet pattern, uh, but I've, I've purchased a couple of how-to videos and that works for me. The other thing is, is watercolor, but it's not the traditional watercolor. There's a really great person on, on social media who does little short ones. Mm. And I can get my stuff out and I can do one, and then I can put it all away. So it gives me that, that little kick that I need of, of something different and new. But yeah, where do I find joy and, and creative? Cause I think that particularly if you are the CEO or director or female founder, you often hold the everything of the business. You are everything from the CEO and the CFO to the tech person, and also the furniture removalist. So, so I think you've got all of the hats, and I think that finding those spaces are really important. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So as we sort of move to the end of our time, I do have a question that I like to ask and will be asking as I go forward, and I'm curious about what's one piece of advice or wisdom that you could offer to other women? And whether this is original Hailey work or whether this is something that's been offered to you that you can offer forward, what would you like to sort of

Hayley 43:58

offer out into the world? So whenever I get told... I'm, I'm noticing this is a pattern for me. So if I get told, like, "List three things," or, "What's one thing?" I always go, "Well, I'll do two or I'll do four." Do

Audio Only - All Participants 44:09

you know what? If you show up with seven, I'm good.

Hayley 44:11

So if I can do two, that would be great. So- Absolutely the one for me is when, when your eyes open in the morning, greet yourself and check in with yourself. It can be as simple as, "Hi, Hailey. How are you going? What have you got on today? What do you need so that you can take care of yourself whilst you do those things?" So that's a practice I have every day. Um, and then the other one for me was something that was said to me many years ago. Dr. Deborah Lee is one of the key trainers in compassion focus therapy, and she was doing a workshop in Brisbane. And we were out to dinner, and I said to her, "I really want to start doing more training, but I get very anxious." And at the time I felt like she slapped me in the face, but it's turned out to be the best advice I've ever had. And she said, "Well, it's not about you, Hailey." And I was like, "Oh." That, that was a bit... You know? And she said, "If you don't do the things that, like, share the knowledge and the wisdom that you have, the people that need it will never get it. So you have to remember it's not about you." And that has been so valuable for me through all the things I do because of course I still get anxious if I'm gonna go and do a talk or... You know, putting the book out, it was like, oh my gosh, you know, I'm, I'm... It was a really vulnerable thing to do. But it's like, but the book's not about me. You know, my, my speaking is not about me. The podcast episode I'm gonna share, it's not about me. It's the information that somebody who tunes in needs to hear, and if I don't do it, then they're not gonna hear it.

Belinda 46:03

That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. I am actually going to pinch that. I have, I have little pictures around my desk that I have of my little pieces of wisdom. There is actually another one that sits above my desk, and it's the, it's, "It's not a bad idea, it just might not be the idea for now." Yeah, lovely. And that is, that is actually a Hayley Quinn quote that you gave me.

Hayley 46:24

Oh. There you go. It's like- So I thought I'd

Belinda 46:27

share that too it's really nice. Yep. In a coaching session, that came up, and I'm like, "That one goes." Um, that one's up above. It's a sticky note just here above my laptop,

Hayley 46:39

so. Well, thank you for reflecting that back. And I, I do laugh because sometimes somebody will say, "What was that thing you said?" And I'm like, "I don't know, I just kind of channeled it through."

Belinda 46:47

Yeah. Yeah, I, I feel that. I've, I've been in that, that space as well. Like, "Could you repeat that?" And I'm like, "No." Um- But I really-

Hayley 46:56

I'm so glad that's been helpful as well

Belinda 46:58

it has. It has. Uh, the other one that's sitting here at the moment is, um, "Imperfect action, i- is better than no action." So, um, I like to collect my little pieces. So that one that you've just offered is absolutely going on the wall. so thank you so much for your time today, and I'm so excited for this to be out in the world. And I just appreciate you and your time, and thanks for being here.

Hayley 47:26

You are so welcome, and thank you for having me on the podcast. I'm so excited for everything that you're doing as well in your business and, and for the podcast and what that's gonna do for women out there.

Audio Only - All Participants 47:37

As we finish off with the podcast today, I'd like to thank you for pressing play. I hope that you did find something useful or helpful in our conversation. If you'd like to know more about Hayley's work, you can find all of her details in our show notes, her website, links to her book, her podcast, her Instagram, her LinkedIn, and her Facebook. There's no shortage of ways to connect. And as I sign off, If you found the conversation today helpful or useful in any way, we would appreciate it so much if you could share it with a friend or colleague you feel might also benefit from listening. Of course, all of the usuals, comments, likes, shares, subscribes, ratings, these all help the algorithm know that the Gen X Women in Business podcast has something of value to offer. And lastly, I hope your day is an awesome one

Belinda 48:27

And now the boring but necessary part. The Gen X Women in Business Podcast is produced for general educational and informational purposes only. Nothing shared here constitutes psychological advice, diagnosis, or treatment, and should not be treated as such. If you are experiencing mental health concerns, please seek support from a qualified professional where guests appear on this podcast, their opinions and views are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Belinda Bayless Co. Or the Gen X Women in Business Podcast. Always seek the advice of a qualified professional with any questions you may have.