Is there a future in aviation
I will be interviewing aviation experts on various different subjects to find out what a future in aviation looks like and how I can start my aviation future
Is there a future in aviation
Is there a future in aviation? Ep 1
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In this episode I am joined by a Ryanair pilot who will be sharing his journey to becoming a pilot, discussing with me some pressing issues in aviation including the sustainability problem in commercial aviation and the growing concerns of autonomy in aviation, plus some fascinating stories and insights into the world of being a pilot for one of Europe's leading and fastest growing airlines.
In your opinion, what skill do you think is the most important and is one that you should really work on if you want to do well and manage to to get into one of these big airlines?
SPEAKER_09The one skill. Yes. Do you want me to focus on one skill, did you say?
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_22Um okay, that's tricky. Like a lot of the ones that you said, like obviously, yeah, all the ones that you said are important.
SPEAKER_09If I was to um personally say one would be leadership and teamwork, I think.
SPEAKER_22Um just because even if in a given situation um if a given situation kind of exposed some of your own weaknesses, maybe in terms of like, for example, I don't know, technical knowledge or something like that, or you or situational awareness, like if you'd not been to that destination before, etc. etc. Like if if a certain situation kind of exposed some weakness, if if you had good leadership and teamwork skills, um it would help you to get the best out of the rest of the crew uh in any given situation. So like delegating tasks, um you know, being able to ask for their for their kind of perspective on things, um and making sure like the rest of the like the rest of the team is like running to its best ability, is what I would say. Um because in any kind of airline environment or operating any kind of large jet aircraft, you obviously you can't do it alone. Like you're always going to need help in terms of and that's not not just in the flight deck. I'm talking like the whole cabin crew, like making sure everything's running smooth again. You know, if you've got some kind of like non-normal in terms of technical problem, like you know, maybe the cabin crew can give you more information in terms of like what they've seen, what they've heard, any smells in the cabin, anything like that. So I think that's for me would be the one that I would say is like always needs to the others are really important, but that I I would say like always needs to be absolutely top.
SPEAKER_24Okay, okay. So what do you think the best ways are to develop that skill or to improve on it?
SPEAKER_22Um I would say I can put yourself in situations like where you're working or trying to achieve something in the team as much as you can. And like the classic example is always sport, but for me, like I wasn't I did team sports obviously, but I wasn't really mega into it. But I think just you know, I was I was in air cadets, so it's like you know, things like when you're young, well, probably your age and stuff, like doing things like Duke of Edinburgh, like getting some kind of job like where you work even if you're just working in a team. Well, most jobs like you're working in some kind of team, so like you know, things like that usually helps. Um and I think like on top of all this is like self-critique as well. So like put yourself in situations like where you're you where you're in some kind of team environment, it doesn't matter what team environment it is, um, but being able to self-critique and and overall like critique the whole like if you if you um if you're in a situation like be able to critique like what happened and what you you could have done better, what the team could have done better, what worked well as well, not just like the bad things, but kind of try and take lessons from being in those situations, and then especially if you wanting to become a pilot, obviously like um relate it more to um to kind of aviation scenarios as well. Um the other way you can do it is like by looking at um specifically for like for pilot selection and and developing yourself as a future pilot would be to also look at um like aviation case studies as well. Um obviously that's not necessarily developing your own skills, but it gives you the things you can for that self-critique and the critique of uh of the team situations you're in, it it gives you examples of things to look out for uh in your own behavior and in the behavior of the team that you can then use like going forward, both in the non-aviation and aviation scenarios.
SPEAKER_24What did you mean? What did you mean by um aviation case studies?
SPEAKER_22Um so like accident or incident case studies, um especially ones that involve um well, I mean, you won't know what's I mean, obviously just by reading through accident-incident case studies, or there's lots of things on YouTube and stuff as well. Um obviously like aircraft investigations, like the classic one, but that doesn't really go into usually like good kind of detail. It's more about the I don't know if you've heard of like CRM, um like crew resource management, that's like a main um factor in terms of this like leadership and decision um leadership and teamwork sorry um skills um is this you know crew crew resource management, uh which is basically about getting the most like using the resources you have, which is your crew, so crew resources like management. That's like you know, obviously then getting the most out of the resources you have as a crew. Um and like I said, the crew isn't just it's not even just those on board the aircraft, it's every everybody else, including like air traffic control, um your operations department, your maintenance department, if you've got like communications with them. So like it's it's about using like all the tools that you have. And with these case studies, um, especially ones that sort of focus in on the CRM aspects, it it allows you to sort of see what the team did or and or didn't do and um kind of develop it from there.
SPEAKER_24Okay, yeah. Yeah, those sound very useful, yeah. Um so what about um because I've been to a pilot test uh fair where I talked to some airline recruiters and they always went on about um uh visitor experience or customer service. They said that's a very important skill. Did you feel that was an important skill as well?
SPEAKER_09Yeah, definitely. It's one that's um focused on um quite a bit.
SPEAKER_22Um I would say, yeah, overall it it's definitely an important skill, but I don't know whether it's just the way I've been trained or like my perspective on it, but it kind of you are always thinking of the customer. Like, don't get me wrong, you are always thinking of the customer, but in the actual day-to-day role, it's more like the safe and efficient operation of the aircraft. And I think if you're doing those two things because customer service as well, it's you know, like things like punctuality and and stuff like that, like the there's a limited but useful role in terms of what you can do as a pilot these days. We're obviously behind the the main one is the announcements, which is really important, um, making sure they're clear and like informative, and being able to speak to customers like that is um really important, and obviously, like how you sort of deport yourself around the air airport in terms of like how you look.
SPEAKER_00Um free audio post production by alphonic.com.
SPEAKER_22Something throughout the month, so they never get more than two days off in a row. Like for me that's just crazy, you know. Like we don't have so many really, really late flights. Um and the fact that I always get four days off between the blocks, like it means that you can just fully reset and be ready for the next week again. So I would take that any day of the week to be fair.
SPEAKER_24So um I didn't catch it. Where are you based out of?
SPEAKER_21Um Leeds Bradford.
SPEAKER_24Oh, okay. What's the uh which is home? What's uh what's uh Leeds Bradford like? Is it busy?
SPEAKER_23Um no, it's pretty small.
SPEAKER_22It's like yeah, um yeah, it's pretty small airport. Like obviously there's only one terminal, it's like um it's just kind of like your classic regional airport, really. Like it in the summer it gets fairly busy, um but in the winter it's pretty quiet. It's mainly just like leisure flights, so it's like highly seasonal.
SPEAKER_24Okay, it sounds nice, yeah. Um should we uh should we move on to some of the other types of questions I've prepared?
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_24Uh fire away. This section is about um skills for becoming a pilot because I feel it's a very um very important part of being a pilot and getting through these application processes with airlines, being able to prove skills and show skills that you've learned, such as communication, teamwork, decision making, problem solving. So, in your opinion, what skill do you think is the most important and is one that you should really work on if you want to do well and uh manage to to get into one of these big airlines?
SPEAKER_23The one skill.
SPEAKER_24Yeah.
SPEAKER_22Do you want me to focus on one skill, did you say?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_22Um okay, that's tricky. Like a lot of the ones that you said, like obviously, yeah, all the ones that you said are important. If I was to um personally I would say one would be leadership and teamwork, I think. Um just because even if in a given situation um if a given situation kind of exposed some of your own weaknesses, maybe in terms of like, for example, I don't know, technical knowledge or something like that, or you or situational awareness, like you'd not been to that destination before, etc. etc. Like if if if a certain situation kind of exposed some weakness, if if you had good leadership and teamwork skills, um it would help you to get the best out of the rest of the crew uh in any given situation, so like delegating tasks, um you know, being able to ask for their for their kind of perspective on things, um and making sure like the rest of the like the rest of the team is like running to its best ability, is what I would say. Um because in any kind of airline environment or operating any kind of large jet aircraft, you obviously you can't do it alone. Like you're always going to need help in terms of and that's not not just in the flight deck. I'm talking like the whole cabin crew, like making sure everything's running smoothly getting them, you know, if you've got some kind of like non-normal in terms of technical problem, like you know, maybe the cabin crew can give you more information in terms of like what they've seen, what they've heard, any smells in the cabin, anything like that. So I think that's for me would be the one that I would say is like always needs to the others are really important, but that I I would say like always needs to be absolutely top.
SPEAKER_24Okay, okay. So what do you think the best ways are to develop that skill or to improve on it?
SPEAKER_22Um I would say try and put yourself in situations like where you're working or trying to achieve something in a team as much as you can. And like the classic example is always sport, but for me, like I wasn't I did team sports obviously, but I wasn't really mega into it. But I think just you know, I was I was in air cadets, so it's like you know, things like when you're young, well, probably your age and stuff, like doing things like Duke of Edinburgh, like getting some kind of job like where you work, you know, even if you're just working in a team, well, most jobs like you're working in some kind of team, so like you know, things like that usually helps. Um and I think like on top of all this is like self-critique as well. So like put yourself in situations right where you're you where you're in some kind of team environment, it doesn't matter what team environment it is, um, but being able to self-critique and and overall like critique the whole like if you if you um if you're in a situation like be able to critique like what happened and what you you could have done better, what the team could have done better, what worked well as well, not just like the bad things, but kind of try and take lessons from being in those situations, and then especially if you wanting to become a pilot, obviously like um relate it more to um to kind of aviation scenarios as well. Um the other way you can do it is like by looking at um specifically for like for pilot selection and and developing yourself as a future pilot would be to also look at um like aviation case studies as well. Um obviously that's not necessarily developing your own skills, but it gives you the things you can for that self-critique and the critique of uh of the team situations you're in, it it gives you examples of things to look out for uh in your own behavior and in the behavior of the team that you can then use like going forward, both in the non-aviation and aviation scenarios.
SPEAKER_24What did you mean?
SPEAKER_22Exactly.
SPEAKER_24What did you mean by um aviation case studies?
SPEAKER_22Um so like ac accident or incident case studies, um especially ones that involve um well, I mean, you won't know what's I mean, obviously just by reading through accident-incident case studies, or there's lots of things on YouTube and stuff as well. Um obviously like aircraft investigations, like the classic one, but that doesn't really go into usually like good kind of detail. It's more about the I don't know if you've heard of like CRM, um like crew resource management, that's like a main um factor in terms of this like leadership and decision um leadership and teamwork sorry um skills um is this you know crew crew resource management, uh which is basically about getting the most like using the resources you have, which is your crew, so crew resources, like management, that's like you know, obviously then getting the most out of the resources you have as a crew. Um and like I said, the crew isn't just it's not even just those on board the aircraft, it's every everybody else, including like air traffic control, um your operations department, your maintenance department, if you've got like communications with them. So like it's it's about using like all the tools that you have. And with these case studies, um, especially the ones that sort of focus in on the CRM aspects, it it allows you to sort of see what the team did or and or didn't do and um kind of develop it from there.
SPEAKER_24Okay, yeah. Yeah, those are sound very useful, yeah. Um so what about um because I've been to a pilot fest uh fair where I talked to some airline recruiters and they always went on about um uh visitor experience or customer service. They said that's a very important skill. Did you feel that was an important skill as well?
SPEAKER_22Yeah, definitely. It's one that's um focused on um quite a bit. Um I would say yeah, overall it it's definitely an important skill, but I don't know whether it's just the way I've been trained or like my perspective on it, but it kind of you are always thinking of the customer. Like, don't get me wrong, you are always thinking of the customer, but in the actual day-to-day role, it's more like the safe and efficient operation of the aircraft, and I think if you're doing those two things because customer service as well, it's you know, like things like punctuality and and stuff like that. Like the there's a limited but useful role in terms of what you can do as a pilot these days. We're obviously behind the the main one is the announcements, which is really important, um, making sure they're clear and like informative, and being able to speak to customers like that is um really important, and obviously, like how you sort of deport yourself round the airport in terms of like how you look, um, you know, appearance, uniform standards, and if people ask you questions or anything like that, how you respond to them. But I mean, compared to other jobs, I wouldn't say we do like a great deal of customer service. I I think obviously the corporate side of it, like, and probably the assessors and stuff like they do look for it, but I would actually argue day to day it's slightly less important. It does it's it's important, but it takes up like very, very small amounts of our time in terms of like the operation, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, that's very interesting because that was one of the things that when I asked um some of the pilots or the uh recruiters there, they always said, Oh, that's the that's the biggest skill you should focus on. So yeah, it's a bit interesting that it's not it's not so influential of a skill when you're using it, but they always seem to talk about it. Which airlines was that our our interest? Uh Tui said that, British Airways said that, and I think Jet 2 as well.
SPEAKER_22Yeah, those three are like probably more so like customer-oriented. Um it's the thing that they sort of like I suppose it's some of the like USP. So maybe like obviously Ryan S still cares about it, and they they do, but it's very much like lower on the on the list, I would say, in terms of and that's not to say they don't care about it. I'm not saying that at all. Like just for the record, I'm just saying that it's not really our our USP, like our USP is kind of like efficiency and um punctuality and things like that. So they'd much rather us like focus on that than maybe you know giving a really, really long informative announcement, especially, you know, I don't know, if we were kind of short on time, for example, it's like we just want to keep the operation moving and well, we operate such a tight schedule as well. So, like, you know, by delaying even just by a couple of minutes to make a really really nice announcement, all essentially all we're doing is delaying like potentially another seven flights like later on that day because the aircraft's gonna be going out back to back doing multiple sectors, so I guess every operation's just a bit different.
SPEAKER_25Yeah, see, yeah.
SPEAKER_24Um so obviously you have to complete a class one medical uh to become a pilot, but is that relatively easy to pass?
SPEAKER_22Um in terms of like that's an interesting question. It's it's it's not like you have to meet some kind of fitness level. So I would say like in you know, in terms of like there's no like physical exam in terms of obviously like how quickly can you run, or something like going into the police force or the army or something like that. So there's actually no element of that. So on some levels it's actually quite easy, and obviously you see s some pilots, especially older ones and things like that, and you know, sometimes you you think. Wow, like they they they're fit enough to have a class one medical kind of thing, like and it it almost looks surprising, uh not to be offensive or anything like that, but in terms of the fitness standpoint, that's easy. What's really strange is that because of the nature of the tests, it can um it can reveal things um that you don't even know like about yourself or or I don't know, I'll give an example like I have a very common like problem in my heart, for example, that that is really common. I've actually spoken to like loads of people who have it, and it doesn't place any limitation on my medical, but I would have never found out that I had this quirk, let's just call it a quirk, really, because it's not it doesn't affect my health in any way, but because of the nature of the tests, like a lot of things like that get uncovered, and then I had to have a lot of additional tests to prove that there was nothing more sinister, which there wasn't. Um but I've known of people who think they're perfectly fit and healthy, who then it reveals something that is like um underlying that they don't even know. And as well, like some other conditions that you you may get like throughout your life, like for example, diabetes or something that for any other normal job, you would obviously have to treat yourself. You might need a bit of a time off initially, but then you'd be able to start the treatment and you'd be at work again, like very, very quickly, so within the matter of like I assume a week or two, and you'd be back doing your normal job. Whereas in a pilot, like when you're a pilot, that people who you get something like diabetes, for example, would then be off for the whole time while they're starting the treatment. Then they've got to prove that they can control their blood sugars for say at least a year, I think it is normally. So all in all, you might be off for a couple of years. Um even though they're sort of getting on with the treatment, and even if they've like stabilized it for a year, that's when it can be more tricky. So I'd say um it's more look-of-the-draw. It's not like is it easy or not? Like you'd have to be pretty unfit. Assuming you're healthy, you'd have to be like very unfit um in terms of like you know, completely sedentary, overweight, etc., like very quite severely to not get the class on medical. It's more you can be fit and healthy in every other aspect, but then something that's out of your control or is underlying that doesn't actually have symptoms that then then may prevent you from um getting the medical. For example, because I fainted for a few seconds, it was actually caused by like a very bad viral infection. So I was like vomiting for like a couple of days afterwards, like it's just really bad, like kind of like a norovirus type thing, like one of the worst I've if not the worst I've ever had. Now it means that until my next medical, I've got a limitation on it called an OML, which means I can't fly single pilot. I've got to fly with someone else, which is fine because obviously I'm always fine with someone else, but it also means that they can't be over 60 and they also can't have an OML, so it adds a bit of complexity for the airline. It should be able to get removed within about six months, but um these things create extra complexity, and it's really just looking the draw, I would say.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, see. So uh when you fainted, was it mid-flight?
SPEAKER_10Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_24Well uh, yeah, that would be pretty scary. So what did the uh pilot do?
SPEAKER_22Um well I actually woke up like really after like literally 10 or 15 seconds. So while I was out, apparently he well, he called the cabin crew and um obviously then you know kind of was just letting the he was even just letting them in and then declaring a May Day like when I woke up. So I literally came round to seeing him holding the flight deck access switch to unlock so that they can come in. Because obviously you can't, you know, someone's got to be flying the aircraft at all times, so he's got the same seat, etc. Yeah, and yeah, he was declaring May Day, and then we ended up diverting to Amsterdam, so it's on Av Herald, if you know that website, with all the incidents on it. I don't know if you're aware of that one, but it's not very nice reading about yourself on Av Herald.
SPEAKER_17Yeah.
SPEAKER_22I was like, you know, and I was fine, but then on the ground, like I was just yeah, I was just like vomiting like loads and stuff. It was just like it was just really not a very nice place to be sick. I'd actually like run a half marathon the day before, which if I was um brewing the virus, like might have well, you know, I've run a lot, I've run marathons and stuff in the past. I don't think that affected it, but if I was brewing this virus, it probably just made it worse. Um who knows? But it wasn't a nice situation, like I say. And if I'd have probably just been sick and not fainted, then obviously I was meant to do a Dublin after that. It was a Warsaw Dublin, so it was a force today. I would have probably just got off in well, I would have obviously had to get off in Leeds, and then they would have called out someone from standby, which may have slightly delayed the Dublin flight, or maybe they would have operated it in reverse from Dublin, for example, to only delay one flight. Um but instead because of yeah, just this very minor like loss of consciousness for like a few seconds, like then like that's what then caused like the big and obviously for good reason because they want to do the additional like investigations or one or but that's obviously what caused like the headache in terms of getting the medical back and the diversion and everything like that.
SPEAKER_25Yeah, yeah, see.
SPEAKER_24Okay, so um I'm gonna move on to the next um section of questions, which is all about um sustainability. So um how concerned would you say you are about the sustainability of aviation?
SPEAKER_22I'd say quite concerned, yeah, but just because of um how governments especially may react in future in terms of at the moment there are aviation taxes, but they can or could go up a lot, for example. I think that's how it would be enforced if we can't find a way eventually of moving away from carbon emitting sources. The the one positive is that the industry is A doing a lot towards it. People would argue otherwise, but with the technology available, we're doing a lot towards it because it's in our interest to do a lot towards it because we know that if we don't, um there may be consequences, so there will be consequences, and B, it actually saves us costs in the short term. If the more fuel efficient we can be, um obviously that saves costs. And the other reason um sorry, I don't know, I've lost my train of thought now. I was like thinking of something else. I think those are the main reasons. It's like it's what governments may do, and obviously the other reason is that it saves us money, is what I'm trying to say. So it's it's the those are the two reasons. Like the governments may put up the taxes, and also like it's trying to trying to for us be as competitive as we can in terms of reducing our costs now as well, because these think what's happening now, like with the Iran oil shock, you know. Um that you know, the less fuel we can burn throughout this next year or however long it lasts, then obviously that's gonna save even one airline like Rhine, it's gonna save them potentially millions if we can save as much fuel as possible. And that's very much like driven towards like in the daily operation as well, to be as efficient as we can be. In terms of like the long term as well, like it's gonna take so long to decarbonize it because we don't even have the technology available at the moment, so that's important too, but that's very much like a secondary thing that that's not really the responsibility of airlines or us, or that's kind of got to come from a higher level in terms of someone finding the technology that is available in terms of like whether that be like sustainable aviation fuels or um which is expanding, but it's not very economically viable at the moment, or um yeah, potentially propulsion technology that's not that doesn't emit carbon, but at the minute we it's still very important and we're doing everything we can with what we've got available, I would say.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, I mean, yeah, I I think aviation emissions are quite severe. Because I I did some own research and um in 2019 the UK respon uh the UK aviation alone was responsible for 37 million tonnes of carbon emissions, which is the total UK aviation, the total UK CO2 emission was 351 million tons, so even aviation alone is a huge part of all those emissions.
SPEAKER_22I think a lot of the research in the past, um, I don't know about those numbers, but I mean obviously I did a lot about this in my degree. I have kind of focused my geography degree, I kind of a lot of it was on climate change, and I always focused it towards aviation. But if you look at a lot of the global statistics or European statistics, um many years ago aviation was about 2% of CO2 emissions.
SPEAKER_14Yeah.
SPEAKER_22Um now it's probably more like 3% of total. Again, check the figures like and and look at it more in terms of like percent and yeah, just be careful with the figures. Uh it's probably more like 3% now. Um and the other issue is that that's gonna rise in the future, regardless. Just if we can't find new technology that doesn't involve fossil fuels, the percentage increase will rise. Even if the industry just stays static, and even if we with the new generation of aircraft reduce our, you know, the number of tons of CO2 emitted each year, the percentage is still going to rise. Because with things like cars, which I think like road transport is currently about 17% of UK emissions, something like that. It it used to be even sort of in the 20%, like ground transport. So that's already a lot more than aviation just because of the massive number of you know cars on the road. But we've got electric cars now, electric buses, things like that. So already we've we've already got the technology there. There's incentives, like government incentives for people to buy these EVs and stuff like that. So each year the road transport emissions are gonna go down a lot from now on. Um that's just obvious to see. And we, you know, the technology is already there and it is being rolled out. Whereas with aviation, even if the aircraft get more efficient, which they are, and the industry doesn't grow, which is unlikely because it's going to grow, or like it the trend is that it's growing. So the emissions are also probably gonna at least stay static, but probably to be honest with you, grow because it's outgrowing how much we can improve the uh the emissions and the efficiency.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_22Means that with the rest of the country and countries in Europe, for example, and the world decarbonising, that means that aviation is going to take a great and great proportion. I think I can't remember the exact start, but it's it's it's not gonna be that long. It's in the coming decades that we're gonna be at five percent of total emissions for Europe. So the spotlights always be on an aviation because it's a nice, easy way of showing like a picture of a you know an aircraft that's like clearly emitting loads, like as one vehicle, it emits loads of of CO2. Um, so it's a nice, easy way to like show to the public how bad it is. But actually, when you look at things like shipping, ground transport, agriculture, like their numbers are way higher than ours. Um, but it's not gonna help our cause the fact that some of these other sectors are gonna decarbonize faster than we are. I think it's gonna increase in importance throughout the years, basically, even though we are decarbonizing or on a per seat basis decarbonising the the growth of the industry and the limits of the technology we have is gonna, yeah, it's gonna it compared to other sectors, it's gonna get worse at the central thing.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, that does make sense, yeah. Um yeah, I did some research on SAS as as you mentioned, um and uh lots of people were very hopeful about them. But uh I did find a lot of sources that were very controversial saying that it's not scalable and there's not it's not possible they would be able to roll out SaaS at that level as they rely on waste oils and other sorts of um un or um yeah, they they just they rely on they rely on some sort of biomass or waste oil which is very limited, not very scalable, and um there's no chance that they can have you know SAS that percentage in wearcraft.
SPEAKER_22Yeah I would tend to agree with that, yeah. Uh like in terms of it depends how you're making the saff, like a lot of the early saf was like from kind of these I don't know if it's palm oil or these these like plantations basically, um usually in East Asia and like the tropics and things like that. Um that was the initial kind, and that's like really bad. Like I'm totally against that, obviously, and I don't think that's the same role at all. As for the waste oils, that's a lot more promising because like I I agree on a lot of what you said as well, and I've read similar like with my own research, and I know that currently SAF is something like 10 times the cost of ordinary fuel and to produce. So even just I think at the minute it's like I don't know if it's now or soon. I've read something that the EU is either now gonna or soon gonna mandate that 10% of an airline's fuel comes from SAF, or it might be by 2030. I can't exactly remember the the rollout, but there's some kind of directive from uh EU level um which is going to mandate if it's not already 10% of airline fuel. Um I don't think it's I don't think it's yeah, I think that's it's probably maybe by 2030 or 2035, I'm not sure. Uh but 10% of the fuel uh from SAF, you know, if the cost stays the same, that 10% of the SAF's gonna cost like as much as as the rest of the fuel you're using. So it's essentially gonna potentially double fuel costs. I know a lot of it at the minute it's like being funded by like various initiatives and stuff like that because they're wanting to to get the technology rolling. And it maybe it'll probably come down in price, it rolls out a bit more. And some of these waste oils, it's it's good to use them, obviously. Um but overall it doesn't it doesn't help the fact that you're still emitting the CO2 into the atmosphere, yeah. Uh that otherwise may have not been emitted. Um so I think overall it's a bit of a like red herring. Um I'm not sure. Like that that's what just makes it so hard to imagine aviation not being decarbonized without some form of technology that currently doesn't exist. Um you can sort of you can you can make you can sort of like balance the accounts any way you want, is how I describe it in terms of like it's almost like accountancy, but with like CO2 emissions in terms of it's like a lot of the these like biomass projects and stuff, like they they say oh it's it's carbon neutral because like the plant has absorbed the CO2 like when it was being grown and blah blah blah, like but and these carbon offset things like where you plant trees, it it doesn't it doesn't work like that, it doesn't certainly doesn't work in the short term because all these things take many years to pay off, and even if it does work in the long term, it's kind of too late. So yeah, from what I've read and some might agree and things like that, I just think a lot of these kind of sustainable, like biomass-based whatever it is, like it can be SAF, can be there's other things like you know, biomass power stations, etc. Um, I just think they're kind of like greenwashing and it's just a way of sort of intelligently attributing like the CO2 emissions differently, like you you know, you can say they've been absorbed, etc. It doesn't it doesn't work like that in reality, I don't think.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, I do yeah, I do see that. Um yeah, a statistic that I found is that um apparently EU regulations uh to have the uh SAF content in aviation fuels has to be 50% by 2050, which is Yeah, so there you go.
SPEAKER_22So I mean, yeah, that might happen. And if it means that it's even reducing the like the waste of oil or like you know, if it has other benefits, then that can be good, but it's anyone's guess as to know like how economically viable that's gonna be, and that's certainly one of the threats in terms of like more like the low-cost aviation, like leisure aviation, which is a lot of the market and certainly you know a lot of the low-cost airlines markets, that's gonna be an issue because a lot of the demand is price price-driven in terms of if you made the tickets more expensive, then a lot of people just simply wouldn't be able to afford it, or people that afford it four times a year might only be able to afford it one time a year. So you're gonna reduce the demand therefore a lot, and it's gonna contract the industry.
SPEAKER_24Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_24I mean, um, there's obviously have you seen the open fan engines that Airbus have been developing?
SPEAKER_22Um, yeah, I'm not I'm not I've seen pictures and I've seen the odd little article. I've I'm not I don't claim to be any expert, but that could be uh promising because for many years like turboprops have been very efficient, but obviously they have their limitations. So if they can transform these engines and fit them on aircraft that would otherwise be turbo fan and make them open fan, then you know that could be good. Um good way of further increasing efficiency.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, they apparently uh cut fuel burn by 20% compared to normal engines, so it would be definitely a huge reduce.
SPEAKER_22Yeah, for sure. Do they cruise, I think do they cruise at slightly slower speed? I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_24Um yeah, I'm not exactly sure either. I mean it's mostly just develop development.
SPEAKER_22So because really in terms of this, and this is all, yeah, this is all related obviously to you know the sustainability question, and a lot of it a lot of the recent improvements have been driven by the engine manufacturers and the engine technologies. If you look at um both Airbus and Boeing, and even Embraer and others, I'm sure. Um if you look in recent years to save on costs, they've not really developed that many new airplanes. I mean Airbus has like with well, yeah, probably there's no there's not been any new like aircraft announced that's like in development. And I'm talking on like a completely new platform in many years now. Um a lot of the improvements have been from engine technology.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_22Obviously at Ryanair we operate the 77800, but also the Max. So the Max gives us like 18% better fuel efficiency per seat, but none of that's been driven by well, some of it's been driven by Boeing, and there are some modifications to the aircraft, like tail section, wingless, etc. etc. But the vast majority of it is actually from the engines that develop most of the fuel savings there. So that's why I sort of focus on the fact that it's like it needs to be like technological advancement that's gonna decarbonize it because except for very small gains here and there, um, and you sort of see these like electric pushback tugs or uh or these other tugs that that can do the taxiing for you and things like that, like that's all very good and that's promising, and we should definitely be focusing on that for now. Um, I'm not saying I'm against it, I'm just saying that when you look at the savings of fuel and they're talking about like you know 90 kilograms saved per flight, etc., that's something to scoff at. But at the end of the day, you're still burning like even in the max, like about 1.8 tons an hour. So, like a four hour flight, you know, you're up at like seven nearly seven and a half tons of fuel like burn. So that 90 kilos of saving from that electric tug on the ground, kind of when you put it into perspective, yeah, not so much. But actually, like the 400 kilos. an hour saving in the air from the engines on a four even just one four hour flight that's one point six tons saved of of fuel most of which CO2 emissions as well so um that's like yeah that's why I keep hammering back to like technological advancement because it's gonna be these technological advancements that actually give us the big efficiency savings.
SPEAKER_24Yeah yeah that yeah I do agree yeah one thing that um I researched which is slightly slightly different from uh sustainability aviation but um I read this uh scientific uh research document about that the bleed air from the engine into the cabin contains um these ultra fine particles which are quite harmful and um apparently there's a syndrome called aerotoxic syndrome which um is where one of a a so-called fume event where a a high amount of ultrafine particles are released into the cabin which can cause yeah aerotoxic syndrome which interestingly barely affects the passengers because they're not they haven't had as much exposure but apparently um aircrew uh over time this ex frequent exposure to these old refined particles can cause this aerotopsic syndrome where they become unwell for a short period of time and apparently there's been yeah loads of reported cases of it.
SPEAKER_22Did you know anything about this no I've actually never heard about it so I've just I've actually just googled it and put into AI now. Um I'm not aware of anything like that. Or certainly on the Boeing I'm not aware of one thing that looks similar that I am aware of is on the Airbus A320 uh one area you might want to kind of hone in on your research or any further research on this would be like the Airbus A320 having a lot of fume events um over the years and continuing where sometimes they don't know what even caused it and one of my instructors for example on the MCC course down in Gatwick she worked for British Airways and she was actually like off for a very extended period of time maybe like forever I'm not sure she might have lost her medical forever but certainly for like many years or it was like still being debated etc like because of a fume event um that she had as well that then caused like lasting symptoms I'm not sure what exactly like obviously we didn't go into it um and she didn't share everything but she did say that um it was caused by fumes so not like a smoke it wasn't you know obviously smoke's visible fumes are just like detectable usually by smell but they're not visible um so I know it's definitely a real these fume events are a real thing but certainly that would be caused by like a a technical malfunction because the normal operate this isn't something like aerotoxic syndrome from what and from what I'm just reading on my screen now as well it does seem to be associated with events where like oil or hydraulic fluid or something else is leaking that that causes it to go in. Because from where the bleed air is taken in the aircraft uh in the engine is from before like where the fuel goes in obviously because you know that one it won't work obviously if it was taken afterwards so it's taken on the from the various stages of the intake of the engine um like most of it usually from the early compressor like fourth or fifth stage and then like 10th or 11th stage compressor and there's depending on the engine but usually in most airlines like around 15 stages of compression so it's sort of usually taken very early and if they need it slightly more later in the in the compression cycle but certainly well before anything like fuel or anything kind of mixed with the air is literally just fresh air. Sometimes you get the smell of fumes on the ground like during engine starts or if you're sat behind another aircraft that's obviously because like the people outside like the ground crew or anyone you know working around the aircraft outside are also smelling um because it's literally just the air that's the ambient air that's being taken in by the running engine for example or just immediately after engine start if there was a bit of like slight um back pressure like before the engine actually started like getting up to speed properly like just very small amounts that leak in. So that that can be possible and when I smell that smell usually only lasts for like 30 seconds I do sometimes think like this can't be very good for health but that must be such a mic micro dose yeah um it's not something I'm particularly concerned about because as I say the ground crew will smell that during engine star I'm sure if you go to like a busy train station with any diesel trains like you're getting similar large particulates from like the slightly different like kerosene and diesel but it must be very similar particulates I'm not really concerned about that. And obviously during normal operation yeah we we wouldn't be getting anything or we shouldn't be getting anything leaking into the bleed air supply um it's not something that would be like insidious I don't think this erotoxic syndrome um I know there's a it seems like there's quite a bit online about it but it looks like it's still a very new area of like research so I don't know there's a lot of conspiracy theorists online as well so until more research comes out it's not something I'm particularly concerned about.
SPEAKER_24Okay okay no but yeah I did read it was like um a scientific research paper and they conducted research over many aircraft and they'd recorded lots of these events so yeah I was a little surprised as well because I hadn't I hadn't heard of that before either.
SPEAKER_22Yeah fumes events actually are like surprisingly common and certainly I think if you've been in a fumes event scenario I could see someone getting like aertoxic syndrome or something like that but once again that that just comes down to luck if you're involved in a fumes event I would say um obviously just getting the oxygen mask on as soon as possible like in emergency mode to breathe like the fresh oxygen is the main point just to hammer home about that um to not cause damage but it's easier said than done like if you know if you're at the toilet at the time or something like that. I don't know um or if you just didn't notice it if it was if it was uh kind of came on slowly you might end up then breathing in quite a bit of it before you put your oxygen mask on so yeah it's but it's not something that like really is in the forefront of my mind anyway.
SPEAKER_24Okay, okay so I think um we may have time for just one more question one more talking point um so I I will I wouldn't I'm not gonna move on to another topic because that might be quite I don't think we'll have time for that.
SPEAKER_22Um does it have to just be one hour this thing then um I mean we could yeah we could go over a few minutes so I might yeah like um you know from from my side it's it's fine obviously if you've got rules for like your project and stuff then of how long it can be then that's fine but I sort of wasted a lot of time just like nattering on about me fainting and stuff so that wasn't really relevant. So I mean I'm happy with it or if you want to if you're running out of time and you need to pick it up at another time that's fine as well. I don't know it's up to you.
SPEAKER_24Okay uh we yeah we could um we could get started on the a little bit of the next topic and then we can see what happens from that.
SPEAKER_22Yeah um so the next topic that I had um planned was autonomous flying yeah um yeah that's a bit so yeah I was just wondering in terms of autonomous flying do you think that it's a big problem for uh the futures of pilots or do you think that because it's not it's we're not close enough to that technology it's not that much of a problem um it is not something that I think will affect my career and I'm only 30 it may affect the very it may affect like the last 10 years of my career but that's the way I see it in short because for example if I take my airline and the aircraft I fly the Burning 737 as you're probably aware it's like a very old bit of kit like that's been around since the 60s and from flying it a lot as well um it's lovely in terms of how it doesn't need much technology or much computers to fly and that makes it really reliable it makes it lovely but sometimes it will try and kill you and that's why there's two of us there in terms of you know if you're not on the ball and if you're not looking for your mistakes sometimes you know or and it's not just the aircraft that's doing that it's like the situations that we're placed into are very complex sometimes and um Ryanair's got an order uh of another 300 max tens that are going to come between 2027 and 2034. So even in 2034 we're gonna be getting delivered a brand new 737 uh starts in like seven years' time and obviously then that will operate for at least 20 years probably so 27 years time from now so in like 27 years time from now there'll still be at least a 737 flying um in Europe um as I said before developing new aircraft is extremely expensive and I think we're just a really long way from developing a platform with this kind of whether it be whether you want to brand it like AI or some kind of automated pilot even a single pilot commercial aircraft would need some kind of redevelopment because obviously the current aircraft are designed for two pilots. So that's kind of where I'm at d do I think that when the technology gets more developed and advanced and it really looks like it could be potential for like first of all single pilot operations um do I think that'll change quickly? Yes probably and obviously the development of that technology would take like many years and then it would need to be probably like have the longest flight test program and trial period of anything in aviation probably so you're talking probably like five to ten year period but then obviously once that's rolled out it could change very quickly yeah so I just don't think the technology's quite yeah yeah and obviously then like I say there's going to be some kind of um trial period and I think as well like at the minute just aviation's a private business and it's like they're just always looking to lower the costs and that's why we've not that's why I'm still flying a Boeing 737 just because there's the training can be seamless the you know spare parts are available all these kind of things you've got to factor in like the aviation industry is in some respects very resistant to change especially if it's something like an aircraft platform that requires a lot of money um they're very happy and quick to change if things save money or if it's a small change but any like big change like that I would say takes a long time. So I'm personally for now happy and I think I'll be either eyeing up retirement or already at retirement age when it starts to become a problem.
SPEAKER_24That's my opinion yeah no I yeah I do I agree with that. Yeah I was talking to a pilot a few years ago who said that um he said that yeah autonomous flying wouldn't be wouldn't like happen to at least 30 years and he said even then he doesn't think it would happen because people would not be on board with the idea passengers would not be on board with the idea of autonomous flying at all yeah that that's that's the other thing as well and um whoever was to start taking the risk of and I and I do genuinely believe as well that it wouldn't just go from a two-pilot operation down to zero.
SPEAKER_22I think there would be many years where it's a single pilot operation um probably ever as well because like you look at a lot of trains a lot of trains in our ATO like automatic train operation um like much of the London Underground is for example and various other train systems throughout the world but they still have a driver there in case of emergencies and you know that's on a train where yes I you know obviously that's a very responsible job but they're literally on track so all they can do is speed up or slow down. Yeah um always stop if it's a problem they can always just stop and just you know everyone's safe there we can't do that in the air and we're operating obviously like a three dimensional environment which is a lot more dynamic and a lot more prone to issues with things like weather um we're a lot further away from health if it's something like a medical issue it's just such a more complex environment and even with in the train industry they and also it's unions as well like I think there are there are many trains I think like Docklands Light Railway doesn't have any drive for example for memory and there's others throughout the world that don't even have a conductor so it is possible but you have first of all the technological problems like we were discussing before but then there would like you say be the other secondary problems in terms of like unions passenger perception of it like which airline is going to be the first one to take the risk of proudly saying that we have this new aircraft assigned to operate on routes that has like only one pilot like I don't think that's a something that at the minute the public would think would would see as a good thing. So yeah I agree there's there's just there's just too much resistance from too many places for it to be like I'm just not worried and I think like yeah maybe towards the end of my career I I'm a little bit worried of like what's gonna happen like in my 50s like 25 plus years from now but um you know I should be like by then I should be you know I'll be very experienced and like I say I ain't retirement or whatever so it's not it it shouldn't be a problem for me.
SPEAKER_24Yeah yeah yeah so on the point of public perception I did um I did a primary survey uh on people's uh views on it and yeah I had one question that was about a single part and even then the people's comfortability just dropped hugely and then when it came down to fully autonomous autonomously flown 58% of my samples said that they would refuse to fly on the plane and then the other the rest of the people said they'd feel very uncomfortable or uh at least some sort of discomfort.
SPEAKER_22So yeah it didn't seem like it was very it didn't seem like it was very well taken I think like it would take a big public shift like maybe when maybe one day when we have well if we have or when we have I don't know what to say but when or if we were in a situation where we didn't own our own cars for example anymore because all the cars were just automated driving around and you sort of just just requested there's no point owning a car because you just request a car to pick you up like you know these ideas that like companies like Uber have for example about how cars may work in the future and we can reduce congestion and all this kind of thing maybe after many years and it's just the norm like if it's just the norm because I'm I'm saying I'm saying when but I really think it is an if as well if we were just in that situation where we're used to getting in cars with no driver and we're driving and and all the trains are driveless at that point maybe then after like 10 or 20 years people might start to ask like why are they like why are there two pilots in a plane and maybe then it would get to the point where it could go down to one first and then zero um but I just think you know people won't even people won't even trust um you know getting in a driver's car like a lot of people at the minute so I just think there needs to be like a there'd need to be a much bigger shift before they'd get in a in an aircraft that was pilotless. Yeah no yeah I do see like people are already scared flying enough when with two pilots with no pilots it would be very terrifying for quite a lot of people yeah absolutely yeah um interestingly enough there are quite a lot of yeah there are quite a lot of uh companies that are trying to use um trying to use this autonomous flying and uh NASA they're doing trials to use remote flying as a way to deliver cargo to rural areas um so what I what I found out is they use a Cessna caravan that's flown remotely by pilot in a control center um and they just they use it to deliver cargo to um yeah to rural areas and they're using it to help the FAA determine regulations around autonomous and remote flying but yeah it yeah it still is quite yeah the FAA very reluctant to give any sort of um well the main industry in terms of cargo right it's interesting because you said cargo and basically that that platform is basically just uh session a caravan that's a drone essentially and obviously drone technology is massively expanding I'm sure like once this Ukraine war is over and a lot of the like it's not just in warfare but also just generally I think like the drone technology must be getting so good and once that kind of percolates down into like commercial uses um over the coming like and that could happen really quickly like I'm not denying that could happen really quickly and that's more likely to affect the like smaller scale like cargo things like in the UK that'd probably just be taking like traffic off the roads and stuff like it's not something that I think like affects commercial aviation as much. I think like for passengers like you say it's gonna take way way longer.
SPEAKER_24Yeah yeah yeah yeah I agree yeah but um there were also some other um some other companies I think they were called it was called X Wing and they were trying to um they were using they were modifying Cessna airframes um to be able to fly themselves so a pilot would just sit in they would uh submit the flight plan set up the aircraft and then they would just sit in and they'd just let it take off by itself and land by itself but I I don't really know how far that went. It just seemed like something that they'd been trying out.
SPEAKER_22Yeah and once again like it's not like we don't know the aircraft can fly itself because I do enough auto lands to see that it can actually land itself like fine if you give it an ILS and stuff. Um it's more just like the the contingencies and what would happen if something went wrong essentially like we we would obviously have to go over so it's it's yeah it's interesting all this stuff but um one thing you might want to look into is actually um I don't know if you're aware of it but I think I can't remember now if it's Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific. I I want to say sing I don't know it's one the two Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific you'd have to look it up but they're actually already starting to trial single pilot operations in the cruise on their long haul and ultra long haul flights so where they may have in the past like four pilots or three pilots they're reducing that down to like three or two pilots because they're having increased they have they're trialing some sort of system I'm not sure if it's with Airbus or who I think I think I want to say it's with Airbus. And I'm not sure if it actually got to trial or if it's just planned and something that they're doing but that's like the approach that they're looking at for these very long haul flights to reduce the number of crew required and obviously then it's like the knock on cross costs of the crew hotels and yeah just the overall number of crew they need to employ for the airline could go down. So that's like one area of saving costs in what is a very low risk time of the flight but obviously you know we've seen some accidents like well you know like the German wings accident in Europe where like obviously there's just the one pilot in the flight deck and decided that he wanted to crash into the Alps and things like that. So there's various issues with having only like one pilot at the controls um but they've got some kind of system that can increase the control that they have over the aircraft from the operations control center. It's like an additional system like communication system of some sort that's and control system that's fitted and they have somebody the idea is that you'll have somebody qualified in the ops control center That is then monitoring like four or five flights at once, and they're essentially being like the pilot monitoring for like four or five flights, and these flights in the cruise just have one pilot flying and the other ones in the rest or multiple in the rest.
SPEAKER_15Does that make sense? Yeah, but yeah.
SPEAKER_22You might want to trial because I'm pretty sure that's either about to happen or like actually already happening, which is quite interesting.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, yeah. Um yeah, that does kind of that does kind of make sense, but as you said, with the German wings flight, it is still quite risky and yeah, public perception as well.
SPEAKER_12Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_24But uh do you think that autonomous flying in the future would be seriously beneficial economically for airlines?
SPEAKER_22Um I think it could be um if it all works out and if they develop the systems like with better technology in the future, and that's like an if, I'm saying it could be. Um obviously we're hearing it in a lot of industries at the minute with the AI kind of race that's going on, it would be similar because I believe that staffing costs are usually one of the biggest costs. Like it's either fuel or staffing. I think it depends usually on the specific airline, but staffing costs can be one of the biggest costs. And on board the aircraft, obviously the flight deck crew are the ones that are getting paid the most, so it's also the the biggest staffing cost. Um so it could like meaningfully reduce costs, actually. Um I don't know, maybe in the ballpark of like 10% for the airline or high single digits, maybe just from the top of my head, but like that wouldn't be something to scoff at. But then there'd presumably be increased costs in terms of the new technology as well. So it's it's technology we don't have, it's not there yet, and it we don't know how much it would cost, but it could potentially be. So I'm not surprised that like some in the that's why some in the industry are like pursuing it because it could save like meaningful costs for airlines if it was eventually operational.
SPEAKER_18Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_22I'm just skeptical that we never get to that point now. So yes, but yeah.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, sure. The development of it would be much more costly than the same. Exactly.
SPEAKER_10Yeah.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, so that's um that's most of what I planned to ask really.
SPEAKER_22Nice, good. Well, yeah, if there's anything else unrelated to the project or like any or in or in you know, either now or in the future, any uh other questions you've got about 'cause you want to be a pilot, don't you?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_22What what's your current plan? Are you year twelve or thirteen?
SPEAKER_24Twelve.
SPEAKER_22Oh nice. So you got just over a year left of school. What's your plan then then?
SPEAKER_24Yeah, so ideally I'd want to get into one of these um I'll try to get into one of these academies like the um British Airway Speed Road Academy or the Huey, they've got one as well, or I think EasyJet as well. These these um these ones where they're paid for you, so because obviously the the training costs is a lot of money, so I'd want to try and yeah, get some sort of sponsorship. But obviously they're very competitive, so I'm trying to do as much as I can to um set myself aside and improve my motivation through doing all these projects and stuff.
SPEAKER_22Yeah, nice. Um I mean I mean I I went for the Erlingus one at the time. It had like 8,000 applicants and I got I got to the final kind of protest in Dublin, which was like the last 200 people, but um didn't get which is fine, like I knew I knew that it would be extremely difficult to get. So that's why then my plan B was um Oxford. Do you have a plan B or like do you know what you'd be able to do if you didn't get onto one of those really competitive schemes? I'm not exactly sure.
SPEAKER_24Um either I'd uh either I'll somehow try and fund it myself or maybe I'll just go to university and study aerospace engineering or something like that and then possibly down the line become a pilot.
SPEAKER_22Yeah, it it's it's really tough. It is really tough. I'm not saying I regret going to university, but I think like these days I mean I had a really good time, but with the way that the student loans are in this country, um it's not ideal. And I would say like if you really want to become a pilot, like really, really want to become a pilot, I'd just do it anyway. Um no matter how it is, like even if you had to get another job and one thing I would say is like don't kind of poo-poo the modular route because um I know a lot of people who got other jobs and they just self-funded it and they didn't go to uni and like they're still sort of in their mid-20s, like when they're joining, like well, obviously my experience is Ryanair and stuff, and like they take on a lot of modular people, and it meant that they can they didn't actually really rack up much debt. Like it depends, like if you've got somewhere to live, like your parents, like if they were happy to even just let you stay there, like you could still if you really wanted to become a pilot, it doesn't if you like look at like what a normal job salary is and you actually saving like most of it or putting it towards the flight training, you actually realize it wouldn't take that many years, and then obviously once you're once you've got your first job as a pilot, you kind of well I was gonna say you're flying then, but like that's I didn't actually mean to make that pun, but like you really are flying in terms of like your career and um these guys that did it in modulo and like they either had like little or minimal debt, like it sets you up like really well then. Um just because I uh the only reason I'm saying it from that perspective is I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't necessarily say my way is a bad way either, but I went to Union and got quite debt like what 40 or 50 grand and then went to Oxford, which at the time was like 90 grand. Um and that was like with the help of a loan from my parents, so like they basically remortgaged like some of the house to cover that loan. Yeah, and obviously they'd cover it for about a year and a half, but then COVID happened, so they were actually covering it for two and a half years. I mean, luckily it was COVID, so they weren't going on any holidays or anything like that. So they were finding that it was absolutely fine, like financially, but obviously it wasn't ideal, and then it was kind of a stressful time for me to get the first job as soon as I could, and I had the tight ring on top of it, and like I mean, I'm doing fine. I've got I've managed to buy my own house last year, and like I say, everything's everything's fine, and I'm you know, paying back the debts like faster than what they're paying it back now. So like they're getting a slight positive, and hopefully, like by the time I'm a captain, which like hopefully will be sometime this winter, like I can really start sort of accelerating all the repayments and just become debt-free within a few years. But but like what I'm saying is I I would say that I got really good training um at Oxford and the and the integrated way of doing it is really good. But obviously you kind of have to pay a lot of it up front. Um it's good because you do the ATPL exams first, so that's usually the hardest bit for most people. And it's also the stage where you can really see who's motivated and who's not, um, just with the fact that you're doing these kind of projects, like you wouldn't have a problem, obviously. Um but a lot of the information is just kind of pointless, so you don't actually use day-to-day at all, and I've probably forgotten like some of it. But at the time, obviously, I you know I did well in the exams, and I was you know motivated. So it's motivation, that's the main thing. So usually these schools will have some kind of deal where if you don't pass the exams, like you kind of get the vast majority of the money refunded usually as well. So like I knew that it was not risk-free, but if for whatever reason I didn't pass the exams, I think I would have only lost well, only lost like 10 grand. But in the grand scheme of things, that's like not the worst thing, and then obviously in the end was fine, but it kind of meant I had to pay like the 90 grand, I think, pretty much before I went out to America. So within like certainly within the first year of the training, um, or maybe I was just in America when the last payment went through. Whereas if you do it modular, A, it costs us money, and B, it's kind of just pay as you go, and depending on what other job you had, you could fund like fund it at your pace. Um, and I'm not sort of saying like aerospace engineering sounds really good. I'm sure you could get a good job doing that as well, but if you look at some of the earnings of those jobs, and then you're thinking of like maybe doing the training further on, like you just what I would say is I have a good plan B because plan A of you've got the correct plan A in terms of you want to go for the fully funded airline routes. I agree. I mean we're in good economic times in the minute, as well as a few of them, but what happens if by the time you're done in like a year and a bit they've stopped or they're on hold or they might still be running, but you don't get it. Like, I would just say that the plan A is like really risky, and you just have to realise that how risky it is, and then you've just got to ask yourself like how much do you want to be a pilot? Because even though the other options like sound grim and it's like a different it might mean it's a bit of a different path for you. Like if you just stick to it, like you could still get there, it just might take a few extra years, and then I know your mid-20s sounds like really long from now, but as someone who just turned 30 like a few months ago, like it doesn't feel that long since I was applying to the same sort of schemes you were um and when I was when going to uni and stuff. So it's like if you can if you can be in your mid-20s and kind of be in the right-hand seat of a jet, like you'll just realise at that point like how well you're doing, kind of compared to like most of your friends and most of your peers, and you're kind of you're kind of set then and you're looking towards like yeah, becoming a captain kind of around the time you're 30 or whatnot, and then it's it's just a really good career. Like, I can't emphasize how good of a career it is and how much how much time off you have and stuff as well. Like it's it's tiring when you're working, but it's it's really rewarding and it's really good. So you just have to ask yourself, like, how much do you want it basically? Um if and obviously I wish you all the best of luck in plan A and you're doing everything right. It's just sometimes like they just don't have enough spaces on these schemes, um and they're just so competitive. Like, I know so many amazing pilots who went for them and didn't get it. Um ironically, sometimes I'm not being funny, but some of the people they do choose are are questionable, like at flight school, some of the ones that we're going through and they were funded. I don't know, just questionable. That's just that's all I'm gonna say, like to be polite on the matter. But you just don't know who or why they're gonna choose, and being really good sometimes isn't good enough, like so, yeah, just like work out what you want to do, find a plan B for if it doesn't work out, but keep focusing on plan A as well for now, but just know where you'll move to if if it doesn't work out because it's highly, highly risky, and it's like just the mathematics of it, it's very unlikely to be successful in one of these fully funded schemes. That that is just the nature of it, and that's not me being negative, it's just like you can't just assume that you're gonna get it, basically. Yeah, whereas like with a lot of the other options that they sound grim and they're worse, but like it's more just think what you want to do because a lot of the other options actually are quite easy to get onto, like you just it's it's more like working out the money side of things, which like yeah, it's tricky, but can be done. Like there's always ways it can be done. Um, it just depends like if you want to do it or not.
SPEAKER_24Yeah. Do you um because I've I've heard of people that have um you know taken loans out or yeah, something like that. Do you think that's that's a viable option to you know take a hundred thousand pound loan out from the bank to do your training and then pay it back?
SPEAKER_22These days it usually requires like they don't do unsecured loans, that's the problem. And that's why usually some kind of family help is needed, and that's why usually technically these days it comes under a mortgage if you were to do it as like if you were to go integrated and do it as one loan of that size, um yeah, there's no way around it. You'd need some kind of family support of like someone who owns a house basically to borrow the money against. That's the crux of the problem in terms of the bank. If you were to go modular and you were to get your own job and your own career going in some other sense, like after you leave school, um that's obviously different then, because at the start you don't really you wouldn't really need a loan. You could still you could start doing your ATPLs and studying and like maybe do the exams first or or perhaps the PPL first, whichever one you'd want, neither of which are like particularly expensive. I don't know your circumstances or anything like that, but it depends like on your living costs. But if you were able to stay at home or find somewhere cheap or like a cheap room or wherever it might be, if you're able to keep your living costs like fairly low, it would be achievable for you to self-fund like probably a PPL in the first year, maybe even a PPL and do some of the exams in the first year, get the rest of your exams and a few more hours in the second year. After two years, you'd be you'd you could have done all the theory exams and be sort of like halfway through the hours, probably to becoming a like a commercial pilot. I say that in terms of like getting a commercial pilot license, um, not a job. Like you know, it's a bit weird, but like do you know what I mean? Like a a commercially qualified pilot, um, let's just say. So like that could take a couple of years. It's more just like the the bit of training that costs a lot is like the multi-engine training and the interim rating training, which is also done on multi-engines, and then like the specialized stuff, like the upset prevention recovery training and the um MCC course, like the multi-coup um coordination course, whatever. So that that's a bit more expensive. But if you if you factor in that by that point, you might have had a job for two or three years, you might have been promoted once, say, you might actually be like on kind of decent money by then. That means at that point you have your own credit score and your own credit rating. And you know, assuming you progressed with your training a lot, if you wanted to speed it up, you could then get a smaller loan in your own name that was like unsecured from the bank, like maybe up to 25 or 30,000 pounds. Obviously, this is all like obviously this isn't financial advice or anything like that. And pretty much any route of going to be a pilot is highly risky, which is quite ironic because when they're looking for pilots, they want people who will not take risks and be very risk-averse people. And that's like the biggest kind of contradiction in the whole thing is that in order to get there, you need to take like a massive financial risk, unless you go down the fully funded route and you actually are lucky, you need to take like a some form of big financial risk, unless you're from like a really wealthy family or something like that, where you can just like you just have the money, which like, yeah, a lot of quite a few people in the industry you'll come to find out are just like that. But um, it is kind of elitist to be fair, like a lot of people can just afford it. But if you're kind of yeah, not just from a fairly ordinary background, it it's it requires usually some kind of bigger financial risk. Or you could do without taking any loan, the modular route, it would just take five or six years. But that sounds really long now. But like I say, you know, if it took you seven years, you'd be like 25, which is still really young in your career. And to be like an FO by 25, you know, you could be a captain by the time you're 29. It you know, you could be a captain at 29 and still have like 36 years, like before your class one medical went out as 65. Like, you know, some of these plan B options sound really long and really awful, but like what I say to people now is it just depends if you want it or not. And yeah, everyone's situation's different, and it more just comes down to the financial planning, and you just need to sit down and kind of think about it, basically.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, yeah, I do see, yeah. Yeah, um, yeah, the thing of modular I always find it's just um it just seems like it would make your life kind of hell. Because I was talking to a person that was doing a modular and he said that yeah, he works like five days a week and then when he comes home from work he has like he does like three or four hours of you know training or preparation or exams or something. It just seems like it's a very big sacrifice.
SPEAKER_22It is, but um and I would say it is very tricky to do, but there could be ways around it. Like this it's more like the exams is the trickiest part. I think the flying is a lot easier because A, it's very fun. And B, like if you had like even just one lesson or one flight a week, even in time of just one hour, like if it was a double block, like two hours, like obviously, you know, you need about well, the modular week you need 200 hours to get your commercial pilot's license, like that would tick up like quite quickly um over time. And certainly by the time you're a private pilot and you don't need an instructor anymore, you know, that side of it's fine. The exams, I do agree, but you can still go modular and decide to do the exams, uh the theory part um in person. Um, like that's more than possible. Like, obviously, I absolutely smashed out the theory in like seven months at Oxford, which was but like that made my life help, and I was literally just doing it full time. So, like, there's no getting around the fact that the exams are just hell. Um, I think it becomes harder to get it done in the required settings as modular, or if you're doing it like purely distance learning. I know some of the schools like Bristol Ground School, for example, I think like Bristol Ground School, Eros, some some of these providers, um some of them think have like more like hybrid solution where you do a lot of it remote, but like maybe once a week there's like a live lesson, like QA you can go on to, like on Zoom or Teams or something, with like video link and stuff, and you can ask it's like you're in a classroom, and I think usually there are some people in person in the classroom as well, but you're kind of sitting in um and can like ask questions as well. But then for the exams, you can like go down for like usually a few weeks, like like a week or two, like usually at least one week. I think sometimes it can be more, I think, like where you're in person, like doing the revision in the classes and like just making sure you're really getting up to speed with it. So if you had another job you could take, yes, it would mean taking like your holiday literally to go somewhere to like sit in a classroom for a week, which yeah, probably just make your life hell, and you'd have to be careful to like not get burnt out and actually have a holiday at some point, but it it can be possible, like I say, it just depends if you want it. I mean, in person it's easier, like my life was held for like seven months as well. But I had great you know, banter with the rest of my course mates, met loads of great people, and we were able to party and stuff on the weekends, so it was fun. Um and it definitely is the easiest way of doing it. But I don't know, you know, the integrade way as well. There's some airlines that really like recruiting from integrade only. I think EasyJet is certainly one of them. I don't know if they've moved they might have opened up more now to modular and stuff as well, but like Rhino like has always taken loads of modular people, but even they have their like preferred schools and stuff now. So this is another thing like you need to look into like the schools a bit. I'd say like with modular, it matters less like where you were where you go at the start, but like more towards the end of your training, especially for the MCC course and things. Um, it really like matters the most. Like the for the multi-engine bit and the anything from multi-engine onwards in the training like matters vastly more than like the star if you go modular. And obviously, if you go integrated, like the airline knows you've had like a very high standard of training from day one. It doesn't mean that it's modular, it's less good standard, it's just like you can go to like any school at the start, but then like towards the end, like you do have to be picky because there'll be certain names of those modular schools where the airlines do recognize and they're like, Oh, right, okay. So he's got good training for the bits that really matter towards the end, if you if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_25Okay, I see, I see.
SPEAKER_22So But yeah, you'll have a lot to think about over the coming. Yes, yeah, it will do.
SPEAKER_24So when you've um passed either module or um integrated, when you've finished all your training and stuff, but you haven't got your type rating, how does like that work? Do you just apply for loads of airlines? Is it easy to get in? Will you be waiting for a while?
SPEAKER_22Um like from my experience, yeah, you just apply to the airlines at hiring. And I it was post-COVID, so the first airline I applied to was Ryanair. And to be honest with you, the selection process was alright. Um it wasn't it was like very bog standard. There was a lot of people applying to that, obviously, because it's such a big airline, so there's a lot written online and things. I even did like a practice simulator session actually down in Cambridge at VA Aviation. Um and like that was fine. And then um on the actual day, it was very similar to to what they prepared me for, and and it was actually like fairly straightforward. So, yeah, you apply to any to whichever airlines they're hiring that you want to go to. And like, say the time like Rhino was the only one that was hiring, and then I got the job, so obviously I was like chuck with that. So I just it was pretty straightforward. I mean, obviously I was gonna accept it. Um, it actually already always been on like one of my top three airlines that I'd go for because I knew it was a really solid like first job um with like really good like career progression opportunities and stuff. So it really suited me. Um and then yeah, I had to at the time because everyone was desperate desperate for a job post-COVID, like they made you pay for the type rein in full, which was like well, it was like 30,000 euros, so that was like another 24,000. Um certainly as they've got more desperate in recent years, it's gone down to being like a 5,000 euro bond. So like you as long as you stay for I think three or five years, I can't remember how long that particular bond is, it might be five years. Um the bond like decreases. So basically, all that means is that you have to pay like 5,000 euros up front, like four grand or so. And then like in year one, your bond, like if you leave, would be like 25,000 euros, in year two, it'd be 20,000. Year three, if you really was like, I just really want to go to BA now, and I'll just pay the bond, like then, yeah, it'd be 15 grand, etc. But if you then did your full five years and you still thought, right, I just really want to leave now, that then obviously it's free at that point.
SPEAKER_02Okay, I see, I see.
SPEAKER_24Um, do you know many so do you know um so these e in yeah, either integrated or uh modular either, do they like help you with applying to airlines or do they help you with finding airlines?
SPEAKER_22To be honest with you, no. They say they do, especially the integrated schools, it's like a big selling point. And I'm not sure if I was just going like in an unlucky time, but the modular schools certainly would not. Um But there are like there are some interesting new schemes coming out. Like Ryanair has schemes with various schools, for example, where you do like an interview. I don't know if it's just I think it might be like at the school with someone from the school, and then like someone from Ryanair goes over and does it. So it's like a mini interview, it's not like you go into the head office in Dublin, but then you get kind of pre-accepted, and you're you're kind of then like tagged, and then you're like guaranteed an interview as soon as you finished, and then if you do fail the real assessment, you actually get feedback and you're invited back sooner within three months instead of like six months, usually I think it is. So there can be like the and these schemes change all the time, but there's often schemes when I was in before COVID. I went I actually applied to BA scheme, didn't get that far into it because COVID actually hit like before the official interview and things like that. Um, but there was going to be a scheme where like they I went in as like what's called like a white tail cadet into CAE, which uh do you know what that means? It's like where you don't have a like you're not affiliated with an airline. Um so it's like because obviously a lot of the people into it schools were like EasyJet or City Jet, whereas it just meant that we we still had a white tail, like we didn't know which airline we were going to be. Um so it was it was like an opportunity for like any white tail cadets to go on to like this BA scheme, which never the the scheme well I think some people who'd or like were already almost at the end of their training who like got onto the scheme did eventually I actually know one person that's on it and flies for BA now, but he was waiting like like I got a job before him and he finished my training, his training like well before me. Like we met when he was almost finishing his training, and I was like kind of only like less than halfway through. So um, yeah, the these schemes always sort of change, you've just got like, but there are opportunities out there with this industry, it's all just about timing. But like I came out of it in an unlucky time and I still eventually got a job. There was a period where I was like driving a delivery van for a supermarket and stuff like that for like six or seven months and stuff, so um, and that's just because of like licensing delays, and like even in the good times, there's always like some kind of delays and stuff that happen. Like it's kind of like funny, like you spend so much time in the air, and just like sitting around, like waiting for things to happen, and then like but when you're actually at work, it's like everything's like rush, rush, rush. It's just like you sit around all this time, like just to then rush when you're at work. It's it's really weird. Like, so many things can happen so quick, but then equally, then there's always gonna be times when it's just super quiet. There's some kind of economic turndown, you have your own personal issues, like a medical issue like me, or you know, anything like that. Um, and then yeah, everything can just change like that, and you'll be absolutely working flat out and so busy. So the same thing happens with these schemes, and um, it just depends like on the environment of the time, like when you finish your training or when you start your training.
SPEAKER_24So um you said that some of your friends uh some people that you knew went in already with like a some sort of airline guaranteed after. Is that is that easy to do? Is that like quite is that like a that's relatively easy to do, yeah.
SPEAKER_22So that could be a second option, but usually those options that's using the integrated route. So it doesn't depend any of the financial problems we're talking about before in terms of it being more expensive up front. But um where I went at CAE, for example, I think now it's like the vast majority of people going through that, if not nearly everyone, is easyjet um tagged, it's called like when you you know when you're tagged, and it's not actually a guarantee of a job, but it means that you don't need to do an interview, like it's essentially like a conditional job interview. So you get interviewed before you even start flight school, which is a bit of a weird one, but that sort of gives you a conditional job offer. I think on paper it's not actually like it's not even like le it's not even really a conditional job offer, like legally, but like I don't think they've got any obligation to take you, but it's kind of like an understanding that they will take you, and they took everyone, like even after COVID. They said to some people, like, you know, you're gonna be delayed a bit because we're not taking on that many people now, but don't worry, you're in the whole pool, you know, etc. And the you know, obviously they all got taken on, so it was fine, but um yeah, so it's sort of like they give you the offer, and then there might be even more strict requirements. So I think for the school requirements, like you could fail up to five exams once out of the 14 before you were kicked off, whereas I think easy jet it was like four exams. If you failed, you were like you were kicked off easy jet. So there was actually like one or two people that failed like five exams. There aren't that many people who failed like any exams, or like usually if someone does it's in like one or two, but like I say, it's a motivation thing, and actually putting in the work is a different matter. And there are obviously always some people who like just don't put in the work, but um yeah, there's like a couple of people who like got kicked off EasyJet because they'd failed too many exams for the EasyJet, and I think as well, like they want you to pass the CPL and IR exams, like flight exams, like first time. Um I don't know if there's a bit of leeway, like if someone got that far and they it depend maybe it depends on the reason or like case by case basis. So it's very much not a like oh you've got a job kind of thing, but at least you know that you've still got to do well in your training, but if you do everything as best you can and you you actually pass everything, then you would have a job at the end of it, essentially, is kind of that understanding. But that's only the integrated route that offers that. So that's an it's a it's another pro for the integrated route. Um, and usually those opportunities like the BA one I was on about and stuff like that, it's usually done with the big integrated schools, so that's another pro of the integrade route. But like I say, you've still got the financial aspect that's like probably worse than modular.
SPEAKER_24So it's a it's a bit like um when you make uni offers and they say if you achieve these grades, then we'll take you.
SPEAKER_22Yeah, basically. Okay. So it's like, yeah, you'd you know that if you do everything right and you play your cards right throughout your training, you'd have a job like with EasyJet, for example.
SPEAKER_24Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_25So that's yeah.
SPEAKER_22Okay, well I'm yeah, I'm yeah, I'm not I'm not so up to date with things, but like if you if there's anything like as you go down the line and get closer to like looking at schools and stuff, like I'm sure I can take a look at things. Like I know the the prices of things have changed a lot now, and probably the schools that are good um have changed a bit as well. But do you know about like P Prune online? Uh no, what's that? Uh it's just like a website, but like usually if like it's like a forum website, but if you had any questions about like certain um uh like flight schools or like companies to work for, etc. Like there's usually like quite a lot. It's it sounds like professional pilots rumor network. Um it's like yeah, pee prune, like prune like the fruit. Um and it's like yeah, there's usually like that's where obviously put people put their unfilled like views on things because it's just like an anonymous forum. So it can be quite good to like just I mean, obviously don't take it as gospel, but it's just good to know like general like vibes and information that's like kind of people are saying what they really think because these pilot fairs and stuff they're really good, but they're just um they're just marketing, like for the you know, people who just say what they want there. It's it's not it's that's not an unfiltered like view, obviously. So you've just got to take like you've got to try and get to the bottom of the truth of these things. Like fine sour's not gonna tell you they've got loads of delays going on like there was when I was going through CAE. Like we were all disgruntled at various points, and people were still going off because they were getting like incentives to go to the pilot road shows and stuff like that to get more recruits on. It's just like, hold on a minute, like we're delayed here because you've taken on too many people and you want any more people's money. It's a bit of a bit of a weird one.
SPEAKER_25I see, yeah.
SPEAKER_22All the big schools are the same. They all oversell and they always take on too many people, and there's you know, but at the end of the day, the airlines still like the name and they're still good for getting a job, and the training's still good, even if it even if there are various issues. You're never gonna get a school or an airline that doesn't have some kind of issue.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay, I see.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, thank you very much for the support and thank you for answering all these questions.
SPEAKER_22Yeah, no worries and like yeah, if you want anything else, then just email me or box up me or whatever. Like, it's fine.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, we'll do. Happy to help. Yeah, I will do. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_22Cool, good luck with the project.
SPEAKER_24Thank you. Have a good day. See ya. Bye. You too. Bye.
SPEAKER_00Free audio postproduction by Alphonic.com. Free audio post production by Alphonic.com.
SPEAKER_22Something throughout the month, so they never get more than two days off in a row. Like, for me, that's just crazy, you know. Like, we don't have so many really, really late flights. Um and the fact that I always get four days off between the blocks, like, it means that you can just fully reset and be ready for the next week again. So I would take that any day of the week to be fair.
SPEAKER_24So um I didn't catch it. Where are you based out of?
SPEAKER_21Um Leeds Bradford.
SPEAKER_24Oh okay. What's the uh Which is hopeful? What's uh what's uh Leeds Bradford like? Is it busy?
SPEAKER_23Um no, it's pretty small. It's like yeah, um yeah, it's a pretty small airport.
SPEAKER_22Like obviously there's only one terminal, it's like um it's just kind of like your classic regional airport, really. Like in the summer it gets fairly busy, um, but in the winter it's pretty quiet. It's mainly just like leisure flights, so it's like highly seasonal.
SPEAKER_24Okay, sounds nice, yeah. Um should we uh should we move on to some of the other types of questions I've prepared?
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_24Uh fire away. This section is about um skills for becoming a pilot because I feel it's a very um very important part of being a pilot and getting through these application processes with airlines, being able to prove skills and show skills that you've learned, such as communication, teamwork, decision making, problem solving. So, in your opinion, what skill do you think is the most important and is one that you should really work on if you want to do well and manage to get to get into one of these big airlines?
SPEAKER_23The one skill.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_22Do you want me to focus on one skill, did you say?
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_22Um okay, that's tricky. Like a lot of the ones that you said, like obviously, yeah, all the ones that you said are important. If I was to um personally say one would be leadership and teamwork, I think. Um just because even if in a given situation um if a given situation kind of exposed some of your own weaknesses, maybe in terms of like, for example, I don't know, technical knowledge or something like that, or you or situational awareness, like if you'd not been to that destination before, etc. etc. Like if if if a certain situation kind of exposed some weakness, if if you had good leadership and teamwork skills, um it would help you to get the best out of the rest of the crew uh in any given situation, so like delegating tasks, um you know, being able to ask for their for their kind of perspective on things, um and making sure like the rest of the like it the rest of the team is like running to its best ability, is what I would say. Um because in any kind of airline environment or operating any kind of large jet aircraft, you obviously you can't do it alone. Like you're always gonna need help in terms of and that's not not just in the flight deck. I'm talking like the whole cabin crew, like making sure everything's running smooth, you're getting them, you know, if you've got some kind of like non-normal in terms of technical problem, like you know, maybe the cabin crew can give you more information in terms of like what they've seen, what they've heard, any smells in the cabin, anything like that. So I think that's for me would be the one that I would say is like always needs to the others are really important, but that I I would say like always needs to be absolutely top.
SPEAKER_24Okay, okay. So what do you think the best ways are to develop that skill or to improve on it?
SPEAKER_22Um I would say try and put yourself in situations like where you're working or trying to achieve something in a team as much as you can. And like the classic example's always sport, but for me, like I wasn't I did team sports obviously, but I wasn't really mega into it. But I think just you know, I was I was in air cadets, so it's like you know, things like when you're young, well, probably your age and stuff, like doing things like Duke of Edinburgh, like getting some kind of job like where you work, you know, even if you're just working in a team, well, most jobs like you're working in some kind of team, so like you know, things like that usually helps. Um and I think like on top of all this is like self-critique as well. So like put yourself in situations like where you're you where you're in some kind of team environment, it doesn't matter what team environment it is, um, but being able to self-critique and and overall like critique the whole like if you if you um if you're in a situation like be able to critique like what happened and what you you could have done better, what the team could have done better, what worked well as well, not just like the bad things, but kind of try and take lessons from being in those situations and then especially if you wanting to become a pilot, obviously like um relate it more to um to kind of aviation scenarios as well. Um the other way you can do it is like by looking at um specifically for like for pilot selection and and developing yourself as a future pilot would be to also look at um like aviation case studies as well. Um obviously that's not necessarily developing your own skills, but it it gives you the things you can for that self-critique and the critique of the team situations you're in, it it gives you examples of things to look out for uh in your own behavior and in the behavior of the team that you can then use like going forward, both in the non-aviation and aviation scenarios.
SPEAKER_24What did you mean? What did you mean by um aviation case studies?
SPEAKER_22Um so like accident or incident case studies, um especially ones that involve um well, I mean, you won't know what's I mean, obviously, just by reading through accident case studies, or there's lots of things on YouTube and stuff as well. Um obviously like aircrash investigations, like the classic one, but that doesn't really go into usually like good kind of detail. It's more about the I don't know if you've heard of like CRM, um like crew resource management, that's like a main um factor in terms of this like leadership and decision um leadership and teamwork sorry um skills um is this you know crew crew resource management, uh which is basically about getting the most like using the resources you have, which is your crew, so crew resources like management. That's like you know, obviously then getting the most out of the resources you have as a crew. Um and like I said, the crew isn't just it's not even just those on board the aircraft, it's every everybody else, including like air traffic control, um your operations department, your maintenance department, if you've got like communications with them. So like it's it's about using like all the tools that you have. And with these case studies, um, especially ones that sort of focus in on the CRM aspects, it it allows you to sort of see what the team did or and or didn't do and um kind of develop it from there.
SPEAKER_24Okay, yeah. Yeah, that does sound very useful, yeah. Um so what about um because I've been to a pilot fair where I talked to some airline recruiters and they always went on about um uh visitor experience or customer service. They said that's a very important skill. Did you feel that was an important skill as well?
SPEAKER_22Yeah, definitely it's one that's um focused on um quite a bit. Um I would say yeah, overall it it's definitely an important skill, but I don't know whether it's just the way I've been trained or like my perspective on it, but it kind of you are always thinking of the customer. Like, don't get me wrong, you are always thinking of the customer, but in the actual day to day role, it's more like the safe and efficient operation. The aircraft, and I think if you're doing those two things because customer service as well, it's you know, like things like punctuality and and stuff like that, like there's there's a limited but useful role in terms of what you can do as a pilot these days. We're obviously behind the the main one is the announcements, which is really important, um, making sure they're clear and like informative, and being able to speak to customers like that is um really important, and obviously like how you sort of deport yourself round the airport in terms of like how you look, um, you know, appearance, uniform standards, and if people ask you questions or anything like that, how you respond to them. But I mean, compared to other jobs, I wouldn't say we do like a great deal of customer service. I I think obviously the corporate side of it, like, and probably the assessors and stuff, like they do look for it, but I would actually argue day-to-day it's slightly less important. It does, it's it's important, but it takes up like very, very small amounts of our time in terms of like the operation, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, that's very interesting because that was one of the things that when I asked um some of the pilots or the uh recruiters there, they all said, Oh, that's the that's the biggest skill you should focus on. So yeah, it's a bit interesting that it's not it's not so influential of a skill when you're using it, but they always seem to talk about it. Which airlines was that our our interest? Uh Tui said that, British Airways said that, and I think Jet2 as well.
SPEAKER_22Yeah, those three are like probably more so like custom-oriented. Um it's the thing that they sort of like I suppose it's some of the like USP. So maybe like obviously Ryanair still cares about it, and they they do, but it's very much like lower on the on the list, I would say, in terms of and that's not to say they don't care about it. I'm not saying that at all. Like just for the record, I'm just saying that it's not really our our USP, like our USP is kind of like efficiency and um punctuality and things like that. So they'd much rather us like focus on that than maybe you know giving a really, really long informative announcement, especially you know, I don't know, if we were kind of short on time, for example, it's like we just want to keep the operation moving and well, we operate such a tight schedule as well. So, like, you know, by delaying even just by a couple of minutes to make a really really nice announcement, all essentially all we're doing is delaying like potentially another seven flights like later on that day because the aircraft's gonna be going out back to back doing multiple sectors, so I guess every operation's just a bit different.
SPEAKER_25Yeah, see, yeah.
SPEAKER_24Um so obviously you have to complete a class one medical uh become a pilot, but is that relatively easy to pass?
SPEAKER_22Um in terms of like that's an interesting question. It's it's it's not like you have to meet some kind of fitness level. So I would say like in you know, in terms of like there's no like physical exam in terms of obviously like how quickly can you run, or something like going into the police force or the army or something like that. So there's actually no element of that. So on some levels it's actually quite easy, and obviously you see some pilots, especially older ones and things like that, and you know, sometimes you you think wow, like they they they're fit enough to have a class one medical kind of thing, like and it almost looks surprising, uh, not to be offensive or anything like that. But in terms of the fitness standpoint, that's easy. What's really strange is that because of the nature of the tests, it can um it can reveal things um that you don't even know like about yourself or or I don't know, I'll give an example like I have a very common like problem in my heart, for example, that that is really common. I've actually spoken to like loads of people who have it, and it doesn't place any limitation on my medical, but I would have never found out that I had this quirk, let's just call it a quirk, really, because it's not it doesn't affect my health in any way, but because of the nature of the tests, like a lot of things like that get uncovered, and then I had to have a lot of additional tests to prove that there was nothing more sinister, which there wasn't. Um, but I've known of people who think they're perfectly fit and healthy, who then it reveals something that is like um underlying that they don't even know. And as well, like some other conditions that you you may get like throughout your life, like for example, diabetes or something that for any other normal job, you would obviously have to treat yourself. You might need a bit of a time off initially, but then you'd be able to start the treatment and you'd be at work again, like very, very quickly. So it wouldn't a matter of like I assume a week or two, and you'd be back doing your normal job. Whereas in a pile, like when you're a pilot, that people who you get something like diabetes, for example, would then be off for the whole time while they're starting the treatment. Then they've got to prove that they can control their blood sugars for say at least a year, I think it is normally. So all in all, you might be off for a couple of years. Um even though they're sort of getting on with the treatment, and even if they've like stabilized it for a year, that's when it can be more tricky. So I'd say um it's more look-of-the-draw. It's not like is it easy or not? Like you'd have to be pretty unfit. Assuming you're healthy, you'd have to be like very unfit um in terms of like you know, completely sedentary, overweight, etc., like very quite severely to not get the class one medical. It's more you can be fit and healthy in every other aspect, but then something that's out of your control or is underlying that doesn't actually have symptoms that then then may prevent you from um getting the medical. For example, because I fainted for a few seconds, it was actually caused by like a very bad viral infection. So I was like vomiting for like a couple of days afterwards, like it's just really bad, like kind of like a norovirus type thing, like one of the worst I've if not the worst I've ever had. Now it means that until my next medical, I've got a limitation on it called an OML, which means I can't fly single pilot. I've got to fly with someone else, which is fine because obviously I'm always fine with someone else, but it also means that they can't be over 60 and they also can't have an OML, so it adds a bit of complexity for the airline. It should be able to get removed within about six months, but um these things create extra complexity, and it's really just looking the draw, I would say.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, see. So uh when you fainted, was it mid-flight?
SPEAKER_10Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_24Well uh so it was pretty scary. Yeah, that would be pretty scary. So what did the uh pilot do?
SPEAKER_22Um well I actually woke up like really after like literally 10 or 15 seconds. So while I was out, apparently he well, he called the cabin crew and um obviously then, you know, kind of was just letting the he was even just letting them in and then declaring a May Day like when I woke up. So I literally came round to seeing him holding the flight deck access switch to unlock so that they can come in. Because obviously you can't, you know, someone's got to be flying the aircraft at all times, so he's got the same seat, etc. Yeah. And yeah, he was declaring May Day, and then we ended up diverting to Amsterdam. So it's on Av Herald, if you know that website with all the incidents on it. I don't know if you're aware of that one, but it's not very nice reading about yourself on Av Herald.
SPEAKER_17Yeah.
SPEAKER_22I was like, you know, and I was fine, but then on the ground, like I was just yeah, I was just like vomiting like loads and stuff. It was just like it was just really not a very nice place to be sick. I'd actually like run a half marathon the day before, which if I was um brewing the virus, like might have well, you know, I've run a lot, I've run marathons and stuff in the past. I don't think that if affected it, but if I was brewing this virus, it probably just made it worse. Um who knows? But it wasn't a nice situation, like say. And if I'd have probably just been sick and not fainted, then obviously I was meant to do at Dublin after that. It was a Warsaw Dublin, so it was a force today. I would have probably just got off in well, I would have obviously had to get off in Leeds, and then they would have called out someone from standby, which may have slightly delayed the Dublin flight, or maybe they would have operated it in reverse from Dublin, for example, to only delay one flight. Um but instead because of yeah, just this very minor like loss of consciousness for like a few seconds, like then that's what then caused like the big and obviously for good reason because they want to do the additional like investigations or whatnot, but that's obviously what caused like the headache in terms of getting the medical back and the diversion and everything like that.
SPEAKER_25Yeah, yeah, see.
SPEAKER_24Okay, so um I'm gonna move on to the next um section of questions, which is all about um sustainability. So um how concerned would you say you are about the sustainability of aviation?
SPEAKER_22I'd say quite concerned, yeah, but just because of um how governments especially may react in future in terms of at the moment there are aviation taxes, but they can or could do up a lot, for example. I think that's how it would be enforced if we can't find a way eventually of moving away from carbon emitting sources. The the one positive is that the industry is A doing a lot towards it, people would argue otherwise, but with the technology available we're doing a lot towards it because it's in our interest to do a lot towards it because we know that if we don't, um there may be consequences or there will be consequences, and b it actually saves us costs in the short term. If the more fuel efficient we can be, um obviously that saves costs. And the other reason. Um sorry, I don't know, I've lost my train of thought now. I was like thinking of something else. I think those are the main reasons. It's like it's what governments may do, and obviously the other reason is that it saves us money, is what I'm trying to say. So it's it's the those are the two reasons. Like the governments may put up the taxes, and also like it's trying to trying to for us be as competitive as we can in terms of reducing our costs now as well, because these things what's happening now, like with the Iran oil shock, you know, um that you know, the less fuel we can burn throughout this next year or however long it lasts, then obviously that's gonna save even one airline like Rhine Air, it's gonna save them potentially millions if we can save as much fuel as possible. And that's very much like driven to us like in the daily operation as well, to be as efficient as we can be. In terms of like the long term as well, like it's gonna take so long to decarbonize it because we don't even have the technology available at the moment, so that's important too, but that's very much like a secondary thing that that's not really the responsibility of airlines or us, or that's kind of got to come from a higher level in terms of someone finding the technology that is available in terms of like whether that be like sustainable aviation fuels or um which is expanding, but it's not very economically viable at the moment, or um yeah, potentially propulsion technology that's not that doesn't emit carbon, but at the minute we it's still very important and we're doing everything we can with what we've got available, I would say.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, I mean, yeah, I I think aviation emissions are quite severe because I I did some own research in um in 2019 the UK respon uh the UK aviation alone was responsible for 37 million tonnes of carbon emissions, which is the total UK aviation, the total UK CO2 emission was 351 million tonnes. So even aviation alone is a huge part of all those emissions.
SPEAKER_22I think a lot of the research in the past, um, I don't know about those numbers, but I mean obviously I did a lot about this in my degree. I have kind of focused, my geography degree, I kind of a lot of it was on climate change, and I always focused it towards aviation. But if you look at a lot of the global statistics or European statistics, um many years ago aviation was about 2% of CO2 emissions.
SPEAKER_14Yeah.
SPEAKER_22Um now it's probably more like 3% of total. Again, check the figures like and and look at it more in terms of like percent and yeah, just be careful with the figures. Uh it's probably more like 3% now. Um and the other issue is that that's gonna rise in the future, regardless. Just if we can't find new technology that doesn't involve fossil fuels, the percentage increase will rise. Even if the industry just stays static, and even if we with the new generation of aircraft reduce our you know, the number of tons of CO2 emitted each year, the percentage is still going to rise. Because with things like cars, which I think like road transport is currently about 17% of UK emissions, something like that. It it used to be even sort of in the 20%, like ground transport. So that's already a lot more than aviation, just because of the massive number of you know cars on the road. But we've got electric cars now, electric buses, things like that. So already we've we've already got the technology there. There's incentives like government incentives for people to buy these EVs and stuff like that. So each year the road transport missions are gonna go down a lot from now on. Um that's just obvious to see. And we're, you know, the technology is already there and it is being rolled out. Whereas with aviation, even if the aircraft get more efficient, which they are, and the industry doesn't grow, which is unlikely because it's going to grow, or like it the trend is that it's growing. So the emissions are also probably gonna at least stay static, but probably to be honest with you, grow because it's outgrowing how much we can improve the uh emissions and the efficiency.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_22Means that with the rest of the country and countries in Europe, for example, and the world decarbonising, that means that aviation is going to take a greater and greater portion. I think I can't remember the exact start, but it's it's it's not gonna be that long. It's in the coming decades that we're gonna be at five percent of total emissions for Europe. So the spotlights always be on an aviation because it's a nice, easy way of showing like a picture of a you know an aircraft that's like clearly emitting loads, like as one vehicle, it emits loads of of CO2. Um, so it's a nice, easy way to like show to the public how bad it is. But actually, when you look at things like shipping, ground transport, agriculture, like their numbers are way higher than ours. Um, but it's not gonna help our cause, the fact that some of these other sectors are gonna decarbonize faster than we are. Yeah, I think it's gonna increase in importance throughout the years, basically, even though we are decarbonizing or on a per seat basis decarbonising the the growth of the industry and the limits of the technology we have is gonna, yeah, it's gonna it compared to other sectors, it's gonna get worse at essentially.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, that does make sense, yeah. Um yeah, I did some research on SAS as as you mentioned, um and uh lots of people were very hopeful about them. But uh I did find a lot of sources that were very controversial saying that it's not scalable and there's not it's not possible they would be able to roll out SaaS at that level as they rely on waste oils and other sorts of um un or um yeah, they they just they rely on they rely on some sort of biomass or waste oil which is very limited, not very scalable, and um there's no chance that they can have you know SAS that percentage in wearcraft.
SPEAKER_22Yeah I would tend to agree with that, yeah. Uh like in terms of it depends how you're making the saf. Like a lot of the early saff was like from kind of these I don't know if it's palm oil or these these like plantations basically. Um usually in East Asia and like the tropics and things like that. Um that was the initial kind, and that's like really bad. Like I'm totally against that, obviously, and I don't think that's the same role at all. As for the waste oils, that's a lot more promising because like I I agree on a lot of what you said as well, and I've read similar like with my own research, and I know that currently SAF is something like 10 times the cost of ordinary fuel um to produce. So even just I think at the minute it's like I don't even know if it's now or soon. I've read something that the EU is either now gonna or soon gonna mandate that 10% of an airline's fuel comes from SAF, or it might be by 2030. I can't exactly remember the the rollout, but there's some kind of directive from at EU level um which is going to mandate if it's not already 10% of airline fuel. Um I don't think it's I don't think it's yeah, I think that's it's probably maybe by 2030 or 2035, I'm not sure. Uh, but 10% of the fuel uh from SAF, you know, if the cost stays the same, that 10% of the SAF's gonna cost like as much as as the rest of the fuel you're using. So it's essentially gonna potentially double fuel costs. I know a lot of it at the minute it's like being funded by like various initiatives and stuff like that because they're wanting to to get the technology rolling, and it maybe it'll probably come down in price, it rolls out a bit more. And some of these waste oils, it's it's good to use them, obviously. Um but overall it doesn't it doesn't help the fact that you're still emitting the CO2 into the atmosphere, yeah. Uh otherwise may have not been emitted. Um so I think overall it's a bit of a like red herring. Um I'm not sure. Like that that's what just makes it so hard to imagine aviation not being decarbonised without some form of technology that currently doesn't exist. Um you can sort of you can you can make you can sort of like balance the accounts any way you want, is how I describe it, in terms of like it's almost like accountancy, but with like CO2 emissions in terms of it's like a lot of the these like biomass projects and stuff, like they they say oh it's it's carbon neutral because like the plant has absorbed the CO2 like when it was being grown and blah blah blah, like but and these carbon offset things like where you plant trees, it it doesn't it doesn't work like that, it doesn't certainly doesn't work in the short term because all these things take many years to pay off, and even if it does work in the long term, it's kind of too late. So yeah, from what I've read and some might agree and things like that, I just think a lot of these kind of sustainable, like biomass-based whatever it is, like it can be SAF, can be there's other things like you know, biomass power stations, etc. Um, I just think they're kind of like greenwashing and it's just a way of sort of intelligently attributing like the CO2 emissions differently, like you know, things say they've been absorbed, etc. It doesn't it didn't work like that in reality, I don't think.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, I do yeah, I do see that. Um yeah, a statistic that I found is that um apparently EU regulations uh to have the uh SAF content in aviation fuels has to be fifty percent by twenty fifty, which is Yeah, so there you go.
SPEAKER_22So I mean, yeah, that might happen. And if it means that it's even reducing the like the waste of oil or like You know, if it has other benefits, then that can be good, but it's anyone's guess as to know like how economically viable that's gonna be, and that's certainly one of the threats in terms of like more like the low-cost aviation, like leisure aviation, which is a lot of the market and certainly you know a lot of the low-cost airlines markets, that's gonna be an issue because a lot of the demand is price price-driven in terms of if you made the tickets more expensive, then a lot of people just simply wouldn't be able to afford it, or people that afford it four times a year might only be able to afford it one time a year. So you're gonna reduce the demand therefore a lot, and it's gonna contract the industry.
SPEAKER_24Yeah. Yeah, I mean, um there's obviously have you seen the open fan engines that Airbus have been developing?
SPEAKER_22Um yeah, I'm not I'm not I've seen pictures and I've seen the odd little article. I've I'm not I don't claim to be any expert, but that could be uh promising because for many years like turboprops have been very efficient, but obviously they have their limitations. So if they can transform these engines and fit them on aircraft that would otherwise be turbo fan and make them open fan, then yeah, that could be good. Um good way of further increasing efficiency.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, they apparently uh cut fuel burn by 20% compared to normal engines, so it would be definitely be a huge reduce.
SPEAKER_22Yeah, for sure. Do they cruise, I think do they cruise at slightly slower speed? I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_24Um yeah, I'm not exactly sure either.
SPEAKER_22I mean it's mostly just develop development, so because really in terms of this, and this is all yeah, this is all related obviously to you know the sustainability question and a lot of it a lot of the recent improvements have been driven by the engine manufacturers and the engine technologies. If you look at um both Airbus and Boeing, and even Embraer and others, I'm sure. Um if you look in recent years to save on costs, they've not really developed that many new airplanes. I mean Airbus has like with well, yeah, probably there's no there's not been any new like aircraft announced that's like in development. And I'm talking on like a completely new platform in many years now. Um a lot of the improvements have been from engine technology.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_22Obviously at Ryanair we operate the 77800 but also the max. So the max gives us like 18% better fuel efficiency per seat, but none of that's been driven by well, some of it's been driven by Boeing, and there are some modifications to the aircraft, like tail section, winglets, etc. etc. But the vast majority of it is actually from the engines that develop most of the fuel savings there. So that's why I sort of focus on the fact that it's like it needs to be like technological advancement that's gonna decarbonize it, because except for very small gains here and there, um, and you sort of see these like electric pushback tugs or uh all these other tugs that that can do the taxiing for you and things like that, like that's all very good and that's promising, and we should definitely be focusing on that for now. Um I'm not saying I'm against it, I'm just saying that when you look at the savings of fuel and they're talking about like you know, 90 kilograms saved per flight, etc. That's nothing to scoff at. But at the end of the day, you're still burning like even in the max, like about 1.8 tons an hour. So like a four-hour flight, you know, you're up at like seven nearly seven and a half tons of fuel like burned. So that 90 kilos of saving from that electric tug on the ground, kind of when you put it into perspective, yeah, not so much. But actually, like the 400 kilos an hour we're saving in the air from the engines on a four, even just one four-hour flight, that's 1.6 tons saved of of fuel, most of which CO2 emissions as well. So um that's like yeah, that's why I keep hammering back to like technological advancement because it's gonna be these technological advancements that actually give us the big efficiency savings.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, yeah, that yeah, I do agree, yeah. One thing that um I researched which is slightly slightly different from uh sustainability aviation, but um I read this uh scientific uh research document about that the bleed air from the engine into the cabin contains um these ultra fine particles which are quite harmful, and um apparently there's a syndrome called aerotoxic syndrome, which um is where one of a a so-called fume event where uh a a high amount of ultra fine particles are released into the cabin, which can cause yeah, aerotoxic syndrome, which interestingly barely affects the passengers because they're not they haven't had as much exposure, but apparently um air crew uh over time this ex frequent exposure to these ultrafine particles can cause this aerotoxic syndrome where they become unwell for a short period of time and apparently there's been yeah loads of reported cases of it. Did you know anything about this?
SPEAKER_22No, I've actually never heard about it, so I've just I've actually just Googled it and point AI now. Um I'm not aware of anything like that. Well, certainly on the Boeing, I'm not aware of. One thing that looks similar that I am aware of is on the Airbus A320. Uh one area you might want to kind of hone in on your research or any further research on this would be like the Airbus A320, having a lot of fume events um over the years and continuing, where sometimes they don't know what even caused it. And one of my instructors, for example, on the MCC course down in Gatwick, she worked for British Airways and she was actually like off for a very extended period of time, maybe like forever. I'm not sure. She might have lost a medical forever, but certainly for like many years, or it was like still being debated, etc. Like because of a fume event um that she had as well that then caused like lasting symptoms. I'm not sure what exactly, like obviously we didn't go into it um and she didn't share everything, but she did say that um it was caused by fumes, so not like a smoke. It wasn't, you know, obviously smoke's visible, fumes are just like detectable usually by smell, but they're not visible. Um so I know it's definitely a real these fume events are a real thing, but certainly that would be caused by like a a technical malfunction because the normal operation this isn't something like aerotoxic syndrome from what and from what I'm just reading on my screen now as well. It does seem to be associated with events where like oil or hydraulic fluid or something else is leaking. Yes, yeah, that that causes it to go in. Because from where the bleed air is taken in the aircraft uh in the engine is from before like where the fuel goes in, obviously, because you know that one it won't work, obviously, if it was taken afterwards. So it's taken on the from the various stages of the intake of the engine. Um like most of it usually from the early compressor, like fourth or fifth stage, and then like 10th or 11th stage compressor, and there's depending on the engine, but usually in most airlines like around 15 stages of compression. So it's sort of usually taken very early, and if they need it slightly more later in the in the compression cycle, but certainly well before anything like fuel or anything kind of mixed with the air, is literally just fresh air. Sometimes you get the smell of fumes on the ground, like during engine starts, or if you're sat behind another aircraft, that's obviously because like the people outside, like the ground crew or anyone's you know working around the aircraft outside are also smelling um because it's literally just the air that's the ambient air that's being taken in by the running engine, for example, or just immediately after engine start if there was a bit of like slight um back pressure, like before the engine actually started like getting up to speed properly, like just very small amounts that leak in. So that that can be possible. And when I smell that smell, it usually only lasts for like 30 seconds. I do sometimes think like this can't be very good for health, but that must be such a micro micro dose.
SPEAKER_13Yeah.
SPEAKER_22Um it's not something I'm particularly concerned about because as I say, the ground crew will smell that during engine star. I'm sure if you go to like a busy train station with any diesel trains, like you're getting similar large particulates from like the slightly different, like kerosene and diesel, but it must be very similar particulates. I'm not really concerned about that. Um and obviously during normal operation, yeah, we we wouldn't be getting anything, or we shouldn't be getting anything leaking into the bleed air supply. Um it's not something that would be like insidious. I don't think this aerotoxic syndrome. Um I know there's a it seems like there's quite a bit online about it, but it looks like it's still a very new area of like research. So I don't know. There's a lot of conspiracy theorists online as well. So until more research comes out, it's not something I'm particularly concerned about.
SPEAKER_24Okay, okay. No, but yeah, I did read it was like um a scientific research paper and they conducted research over many aircraft and they'd recorded lots of these events, so yeah, I was a little surprised as well because I hadn't I hadn't heard of that before either.
SPEAKER_22Yeah, fumes events actually are like surprisingly common. And certainly I think if you've been in a fumes event scenario, I could see someone getting like aerotoxic syndrome or something like that. But once again, that that just comes down to luck if you're involved in a fumes event, I would say. Um obviously just getting the oxygen mask on as soon as possible, like in emergency mode, to breathe like the fresh oxygen is the main point just to hammer home about that, um, to not cause damage, but it's easier said than done, like if you know if you're at the toilet at the time or something like that, I don't know. Um or if you just didn't notice it, if it was if it was uh kind of came on slowly, you might end up then breathing in quite a bit of it before you put your oxygen mask on. So yeah, it's but it's not something that like really is in the forefront of my mind anyway.
SPEAKER_24Okay, okay. So I think um we may have time for just one more question, one more talking point. Um I will I wouldn't I'm not gonna move on to another topic because that might be quite I don't think we'll have time for that.
SPEAKER_22Um does it have to just be one hour this thing then?
SPEAKER_24Um I mean we could yeah we could go over a few minutes so I might yeah.
SPEAKER_22Like um you know, for from my side it's it's fine. Obviously, if you've got rules for like your project and stuff then of how long it can be, then that's fine. But I sort of wasted a lot of time just like nattering on about me fainting and stuff, so that wasn't really relevant. So I mean I'm happy with it, or if you wanna if you're running out of time and you need to pick it up at another time, that's fine as well. Um I don't know, it's up to you.
SPEAKER_24Okay, uh we yeah, we could um we could get started on the a bit of the next topic and then we can see what happens from that. Yeah. Um so the next topic that I had um planned was autonomous flying.
SPEAKER_11Yeah.
SPEAKER_24Um yeah, I was just wondering in terms of autonomous flying, do you think that it's a big problem for uh the futures of pilots or do you think that because it's not if we're not close enough for that technology, it's not that much of a problem?
SPEAKER_22Um it is not something that I think will affect my career and I'm only 30. It may affect the very it may affect like the last 10 years of my career, but that's the way I see it in short, because for example, if I take my airline and the aircraft I fly, the Boeing 737, as you're probably aware, it's like a very old bit of kit, like that's been around since the 60s, and from flying it a lot as well. Um, it's lovely in terms of how it doesn't need much technology or much computers to fly, and that makes it really reliable, it makes it lovely. But sometimes it will try and kill you, and that's why there's two of us there. Um, in terms of, you know, if you're not on the ball and if you're not looking for your mistakes sometimes, you know, or and it's not just the aircraft that's doing that, it's like the situations that we're placed into are very complex sometimes. And um Ryanair's got an order uh of another 300 max tens that are gonna come between 2027 and 2034. So even in 2034, we're gonna be getting delivered a brand new 737. Uh starts in like seven years' time, and obviously then that will operate for at least 20 years, probably. So 27 years' time from now. So in 27 years' time from now, there'll still be at least a 737 flying um in Europe. Um, as I said before, developing new aircraft is extremely expensive, and I think we're just a really long way from developing a platform with this kind of whether it be whether you want to brand it like AI or some kind of automated pilot, even a single pilot commercial aircraft would need some kind of redevelopment because obviously the current aircraft are designed for two pilots. Um so that's kind of where I'm at. D do I think that when the technology gets more developed and advanced and it really looks like it could be potential for like first of all, single pilot operations. Um do I think that'll change quickly? Yes, probably. And obviously the development of that technology would take like many years, and then it would need to be probably like have the longest flight test program and trial period of anything in aviation, probably. So you're talking probably like five to ten year period, but then obviously once that's rolled out, it could change very quickly, yeah. So I just don't think the technology is quite yeah yet, and obviously, then like I say, there's gonna be some kind of um trial period, and I think as well, like at the minute, just aviation's a private business, and it's like they're just always looking to lower the costs, and that's why we've not that's why I'm still flying a Boeing 737, just because the training can be seamless, the you know, spare parts are available, all these kind of things you've got to factor in. Like the aviation industry is in some respects very resistant to change, especially if it's something like an aircraft platform that requires a lot of money. Um, they're very happy and quick to change if things save money or if it's a small change, but any like big change like that, I would say takes a long time. So I'm personally for now happy, and I think I'll be either eyeing up retirement or already at retirement age when it starts to become a problem. That's my opinion.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, no, I yeah, I do I agree with that. Yeah, I was talking to a pilot a few years ago who said that um he said that yeah, autonomous flying wouldn't be wouldn't like happen till at least 30 years, and he said even then he doesn't think it would happen because people would not be on board with the idea, passengers would not be on board with the idea of autonomous flying at all.
SPEAKER_22Yeah, that that's that's the other thing as well. And um whoever was to start taking the risk of and I and I do genuinely believe as well that it wouldn't just go from a two-pilot operation down to zero. I think there would be many years where it's a single pilot operation. Um probably ever as well, because like you look at a lot of trains, a lot of trains in our ATO, like automatic train operation, um like much of the London Underground is, for example, and various other train systems throughout the world, but they still have a driver there in case of emergencies. And you know, that's on a train where yes, uh, you know, it obviously has a very responsible job, but they're literally on track. All they can do is speed up or slow down.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_22Um always stop if it's a problem. They can always just stop and just you know, everyone's safe there. We can't do that in the air. And we're operating obviously like a three-dimensional environment which is a lot more dynamic and a lot more prone to issues with things like weather. Um, we're a lot further away from health if it's something like a medical issue. It's just such a more complex environment. And even within the train industry, they and also it's unions as well. Like, I think there are there are many trains. I think like Docklands Light Railway doesn't have any driver, for example, from memory. And there's others throughout the world that don't even have a conductor, so it is possible, but you have first of all the technological problems like we were discussing before, but then there would, like you say, be the other secondary problems in terms of like unions, passenger perception of it. Like which airline is going to be the first one to take the risk of proudly saying that we have this new aircraft that's starting to operate on routes that has like only one pilot. Like, I don't think that's uh something that at the minute the public would think would would see as a good thing. So yeah, I agree. There's there's just there's just too much resistance from too many places for it to be like I'm just not worried, and I think like, yeah, maybe towards the end of my career, I I'm a little bit worried of like what's gonna happen like in my 50s, like 25 plus years from now. But um, you know, I should be like by then I should be, you know, I'd be very experienced and like I say, eyeing up retirement or whatever, so it's not it it shouldn't be a problem for me.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so on the point of public perception, I did um I did a primary survey uh on people's uh views on it, and yeah, I had one question that was about a single part, and even then the people's comfortability just dropped hugely, and then when it came down to fully autonomous, autonomously flown, 58% of my sample said that they would refuse to fly on the plane, and then the other the rest of the people said they'd feel very uncomfortable or uh at least some sort of discomfort. So yeah, it didn't seem like it was very it didn't seem like it was very well taken.
SPEAKER_22I think like it would take a big public shift. Maybe when maybe one day when we have well, if we have or when we have, I don't know what to say, but when or if we were in a situation where we didn't own our own cars, for example, anymore because all the cars were just automated driving round and you sort of just just requested there's no point owning a car because you just request a car to pick you up. Like you know, these ideas that like companies like Uber have, for example, about how cars may work in the future and we can reduce congestion and all this kind of thing. Maybe after many years and it's just the norm, like if it's just the norm, because I'm I'm saying I'm saying when, but I really think it is an if as well. If we were just in that situation where we're used to getting in cars with no driver and we're driving and all the trains are driverless at that point, maybe then after like 10 or 20 years, people might start to ask like why are they like why are there two pilots in a plane? And maybe then it would get to the point where it could go down to one first and then zero. Um but I just think you know people won't even people won't even trust um you know getting in a driver's car like a lot of people at the minute. So I just think there needs to be like a there'd need to be a much bigger shift before they'd get in a in an aircraft that was pilotless.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, no, yeah, I do see. Like people are already scared flying enough when with two pilots with no pilots, it would be very terrifying for quite a lot of people.
SPEAKER_19Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, um interestingly enough, there are quite a lot of yeah, there are quite a lot of uh companies that are trying to use um trying to use this autonomous flying. And uh NASA they're doing trials to use remote flying as a way to deliver cargo to rural areas. Um so what I what I found out is they use a Cessna caravan that's flown remotely by a pilot in a control center, um, and they just they use it to deliver cargo to um yeah to rural areas and they're using it to help the FAA determine regulations around autonomous and remote flying. But yeah, it yeah, it still is quite yeah, the FAA very reluctant to give any sort of um
SPEAKER_22The main industry in terms of cargo, right? It's interesting because you said cargo, and basically that that platform is basically just uh assessing a caravan, that's a drone essentially. And obviously drone technology is massively expanding, I'm sure. Like once this Ukraine war is over and a lot of the like it's not just in warfare, but also just generally, I think like the drone technology must be getting so good, and once that kind of percolates down into like commercial uses um over the coming like and that could happen really quickly. Like I'm not denying that could happen really quickly, and that's more like to affect the like smaller scale like cargo things like in the UK that'd probably just be taking like traffic off the roads and stuff, like it's not something that I think like affects commercial aviation as much. I think like for passengers, like you say, it's gonna take way, way longer.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, but um there were also some other um some other companies, I think they were called it was called X-Wing, and they were trying to um they were using they were modifying Cessna airframes um to be able to fly themselves. So a pilot would just sit in, they would uh submit the flight plan, set up the aircraft, and then they would just sit in and they'd just let it take off by itself and land by itself. But I I don't really know how far that went. It just seemed like something that they'd been trying out.
SPEAKER_22Yeah, and once again, like it's not like we don't know the aircraft can fly itself because I do enough auto lands to see that it can actually land itself like fine if you give it an ILS and stuff. Um it's more just like the contingencies and what would happen if something went wrong. Essentially, like we we would obviously have to stick over. So it's it's yeah, it's interesting all this stuff, but um one thing you might want to look into is actually um I don't know if you're aware of it, but I think I can't remember now if it's Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific. I I want to say sing I don't know, it's one to two. Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific, you'd have to look it up, but they're actually already starting to trial single pilot operations in the cruise on their long haul and ultra-long haul flights. So where they may have in the past like four pilots or three pilots, they're reducing that down to like three or two pilots because they're having increased, they have the trialing some sort of system. I'm not sure if it's with Airbus or who. I think I think I want to say it's with Airbus. Um I'm not sure if it actually got to trial or if it's just planned and something that they're doing, but that's like the approach that they're looking at for these very long-haul flights to reduce the number of crew required. And obviously, then it's like the knock-on costs of the crew hotels and yeah, just the overall number of crew they need to employ for the airline could go down. So that's like one area of saving costs in what is a very low-risk time of the flight. But obviously, you know, we've seen some accidents like well, you know, like the German wings accident in Europe, where like obviously there's just the one pilot in the flight deck and decided that he wanted to crash into the Alps and things like that. So there's various issues with having only like one pilot of the controls, um, but they've got some kind of system that can increase the control that they have over the aircraft from the operations control centre. Um it's like an additional system, like communication system of some sort that's and control system that's fitted, and they have somebody. The idea is that you'll have somebody qualified in the ops control centre that is then monitoring like four or five flights at once, and they're essentially being like the pilot monitoring for like four or five flights, and these flights in the cruise just have one pilot flying and the other ones in the rest or multiple in the rest. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_15Yeah, but yeah.
SPEAKER_22Because I'm pretty sure that's either about to happen or like actually already happening, which is quite interesting.
SPEAKER_24Yeah, yeah. Um yeah, that does kind of that does kind of make sense, but as you said, with the German wings flight, it is still quite risky and yeah, public perception as well.
SPEAKER_12Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_24But uh do you think that autonomous flying in the future would be seriously beneficial economically for airlines?
SPEAKER_09Um I think it could be.
SPEAKER_22Um if it all works out and if they develop the systems like with better technology in the future, and that's like an if, I'm saying it could be. Um obviously we're hearing it in a lot of industries at the minute with the AI kind of race that's going on, it would be similar because I believe that staffing costs are usually one of the biggest costs. Like it's either fuel or staffing. I think it depends usually on the specific airline, but staffing costs can be one of the biggest costs. And on board the aircraft, obviously the flight deck crew are the ones that are getting paid the most, so it's also the the biggest staffing cost. Um, so it could like meaningfully reduce costs, actually. Um I don't know, maybe in the ballpark of like 10% for the airline or high single digits, maybe just from the top of my head, but like that wouldn't be something to scoff at. But then there'd presumably be increased costs in terms of the new technology as well. So it's it's technology we don't have, it's not there yet, and it we don't know how much it would cost, but it could potentially be. So I'm not surprised that like some in the that's why some in the industry are like pursuing it because it could save like meaningful costs for airlines if it was eventually operational.
SPEAKER_18Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_22I'm just skeptical that we'd ever get to that point then. So yes, but yeah.
SPEAKER_24Not sure. I thought the development of it would be much more costly than the same. Exactly.
SPEAKER_10Yeah.