What They Don't Tell You About Long-Term Love | Attraction, Commitment, and Choosing Each Other Daily

Is attraction enough to make love last? In this episode of the Love and Leadership Podcast, Trent and Star Postell get real about what long-term love actually looks like after 25 years together, 20 years of marriage, and a decade of building businesses side by side.
From the butterflies of a college romance to navigating empty nests, trauma, unmet expectations, and the daily choice to stay committed, this conversation goes deep into the honest truth about what it takes to make love last.
In this episode, you will discover:

Why attraction gets you in but commitment is what keeps you together
How unspoken expectations silently destroy relationships
What love languages really look like when they shift across seasons
Why intimacy is about so much more than the physical
The power of grace, communication, and choosing love as a daily action
How to leave a legacy of love for your children and those who come after you

Whether you are newlyweds, navigating a hard season, or rediscovering each other as empty nesters, this episode will meet you exactly where you are.
Subscribe to the Love and Leadership Podcast and join Trent and Starr each week as they bring together faith, family, marriage, and business to help you love well and lead with purpose.
Love well. Lead with purpose. Steward what matters.

Connect with us and follow our journey:

#LoveAndLeadership #MarriageGoals #LongTermLove #RelationshipAdvice #MarriagePodcast #ChoosingLove #LoveLangauges #EmptyNesters #FaithAndFamily

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

What does it look like to love well at home and lead with purpose in the boardroom? Welcome to the Love and Leadership Podcast, where faith, family, marriage, and business come together to build leaders who last. Hosted by Trent and Star Postel. Love well, lead with purpose, steward what matters.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Hey there, and welcome to the Love and Leadership Podcast. I'm Star and this is my husband Trent, and we are bringing you another episode in the month of love.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Yeah. Look, this uh podcast exists not because leadership is neatly in a box, neither is love, but they collide together in real life. And we don't always have to have it all together, but together we walk it out. We're gonna answer a lot of questions on love and leadership throughout the episodes and something that we're really passionate about. But as Star said, it is the love month, right? So we're in February and Valentine's Day, right? And the thing about Valentine's Day, most people just think about romance, but love is so much more than that. Love actually talks about the moment that we share every single day. And a lot of those things are not really seen or posted about online. And so um we're gonna jump right into it. And so I'm gonna ask you some questions about our love, okay? And so I want you to describe to me, you know, what is love to you in this season? What does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Put me on the spot a little bit, but uh, we'll go for it. Um, so during this season, we are in a transitional period of our life. Kids have moved out of the house. We've done a lot in the 25 years that we've been together, 20 years of marriage, 12 years of being uh self-employed entrepreneurs. And um things have just really, you know, changed and evolved over time. But in this season, right now, I think it's it's been a season for us to get to know each other again as individuals, as people, not mom, not dad, not you know, this or that, but just us. And I think not only are we sort of rediscovering who we are individually, but we're rediscovering who we are as a couple.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yeah, I mean, I really agree with that. And and also, too, if you really think about it, you know, because we've changed so many times over the season, they actually talk about this. Um, what is the life going to be back after the kids, right? Like, what are you gonna share? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

Like, are we actually gonna still like it? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Are we just gonna look at each other and have nothing to say because everything was about the kids, our career? But I think that especially over the last five years or so, we've really done a really good job of redeveloping our connection, right? As the kids got older, yeah, they get more independent and started doing more things themselves and also sharing in entrepreneurship because the beginning, it was rough in the beginning. Oh, yeah. We were two different people bumping heads all the time. And listen, if you're gonna work with your wife as an entrepreneur in your business, make sure you're ready for that. Okay, it's not for everybody, but but I think that you know it was a great challenge that we were able to get through, but I also thought it taught it actually taught us more about each other, right? Oh, absolutely. And so I really appreciate that season we had because now, like I said, that the kids are at the house, I feel like we are rediscovering each other again and having fun and doing all those things, you know. And so uh, so I think that's I think it's I mean, we're in a good place. What would you say?

SPEAKER_03 3:06

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Okay, awesome. So let's get into this, right? So, you know, we're gonna first talk about attraction versus commitment, right? Attraction is what gets most people together, right? Let's be real, right? When you see your spouse or you see your date or the person you want to be with, something attracted you far as her eye. Like, oh my gosh, she's beautiful. Look at the eyes. I I was looking at saw your eyes, right? I mean, I just immediately draw me to you. But over can attraction keep you there, right? So at some point, commitment has to take place. So first question to you is what did we believe love was early, and how has time reshaped that for you?

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Um, so I think long before we got together, um, I always thought that love was, you know, just the butterflies, the good stuff. And then also a lot of romance, you know, when you're you're young. I mean, we got together literally as teenagers. We were 18 and 19 years old, our freshman year of college.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

And yeah, she she she came and got me when I was a younger man. So she was, you know, robbing the cradle.

SPEAKER_03 4:06

So, you know, that that that's I was suave like that. I had a lot of people. But I think um, you know, literally as teenagers, we I think for me, romance was what love was. So it was flowers, it was chocolate, it was nice restaurants. You know, I just assumed that if you had those things, it it would last forever.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Yeah, I think I kind of started this a little too high expectations. My first date I took you on was the melting pot, right? And uh I just I didn't and back then you didn't have like reviews, you didn't know to look at reviews or stuff, it just had a cool name. And I had someone suggested, oh, take her to the melting pot, that would be great, right? And little I know how one expensive it was, but I'm talking about I didn't know what a fun du was, I didn't know any of that stuff. I'm like putting this stuff in a bowl and I'm like, okay, right. But you were happy, so I felt like I did something, right?

SPEAKER_03 4:53

You know, you start you like started off with a very high bar.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:57

And the funny thing is, I think about three dates in, you know, you spent all your money. Yeah, I was I was quite broke. And I think probably our third or fourth date was at IHOP.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

So that's that's a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

It wasn't realistic to keep the romance going at that level for so long.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

But luckily, I think that one thing that helped us is that, you know, we developed a good connection through conversation. Uh, I remember, you know, one of the things that really uh attracted me to you was our conversations, right? I I'd never really gotten deep into conversation with anybody before, right? And I think that we built something on that. And I think that's something that carried us throughout the years, even through our rough patches and things. I think that kind of really kind of pushed us through that. So um can I ask you another question? Is that okay? Oh, yeah. I know you're supposed to ask me another one, but I know you put me on the spot. But go ahead. Uh what do you think um most couples misunderstand about love long term?

SPEAKER_03 5:49

Um I think we really underestimate how challenging it is. And especially when you're talking about, you know, marriage, living together, that person is in your space all the time.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Every day.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

Every day, all day, you know. And hopefully you have a a healthy um separation where you know, you have your own group of friends and they have their own group and they have their hobbies, and you have, you know. So I think for us, when we first got together, we were we were together all the time. I mean, especially um when we were as young as we were, it was like, wow, I met this person that gets me, like nobody else ever got me. And I'm super attracted to them and I have butterflies all the time. And so I think we we got used to just being together 24-7. Um, and I think over time we, you know, we learned how to have healthy separation. We learned how to miss each other so we could come back together. But um, I think just in general, that's important to to kind of never lose yourself fully in the relationship, but also learn how to partner, learn how to have realistic expectations and learn that that love is long, long term, you know, it's it's a journey. It's not it's not a destination. You don't get there and then you're there and you've arrived and you're done and you won. You know, it's every day, every moment, every opportunity, those little things that that show that you care and that you're committed and that you're in it for the long haul.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Yeah. And I can think I can be difficult sometimes because you talk about commitment and sometimes, you know, being able to miss the other person or have other hobbies or people and things. We had children very early, right? And so none of our friends literally had, you know, children or anything like that. Yeah, we were the first ones to get married. And so since we're being young and then our friends in a different space in their own life, we didn't have any peers where we can just be like, hey, we're gonna go hang out and go do this, or we're gonna go travel. You know, that I think that, you know, was a little difficult sometimes because now it forced us to kind of be together all the time. We didn't have, you know, that extra healthiness of outside of our family or our marriage or even our kids in our first few years.

SPEAKER_03 8:04

Yeah, for sure. Um, I mean, looking back, I think when you plan things out in a certain way where you are meeting your meeting your needs in different ways and you're not putting all the pressure on one person to meet every single need. I think that that makes for a less stressed relationship.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

And uh hopefully one that can, you know, that that would have a greater probability of surviving. Sometimes when I look back at our life, I'm just I feel blessed that we survive.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Yeah. Survival is a good word.

SPEAKER_03 8:37

Yeah, it's because we're in such an amazing place now, but a lot of couples give up too early. They give up in those seasons of stress and turmoil and complication and those seasons where maybe they're still learning how to be an adult themselves and process their own trauma and emotions.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

And I think for us, you know, because we got together so early, we kind of had to do all of that growing up together. And as some seasons it pushed us apart, and then other seasons it allowed us to come closer than we would have otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Yeah, put a pin in that because we're gonna come back to that trauma piece. Because I think that's a really big communication gap that we have in our relationships, right? And so uh, but you know, I've asked you, you can ask me some questions, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

Let's see, let's see what I have over here. Um so I think uh we mentioned before about, you know, kind of like the butterflies and and those feelings early on and those expectations, but I think even diving into that a little bit deeper when it comes to attraction versus commitment is an area that we could go. Um, so what do you think happens when your expectations go um unspoken in a relationship?

SPEAKER_01 9:46

That's a great question. Um, I think when, you know, I think that's uh the cause of most arguments is because of unmet expectations, right? But the the root of it sometimes is that we don't know how to communicate because if that person doesn't know what your expectation was, right? Or sometimes we can have the wrong expectation or over expectations, because I think sometimes we get into these roles where we have like you should be doing this, right? Expectations can come from like my own mother, right? Or how I was parented, or what I thought traditionally your role of what a wife is supposed to be, or what a mother should be, and what my role should be, right? And there's not enough talk about what that should look like because there's different seasons. Like you are a full-time professional. Um, you are a hardworking mother that just does everything for her kids, right? And so I, you know, took a lot of time. Sometimes I think I took that for granted, not understanding you. And I put some pressures like, well, what about me? What about me? What about me? Like, I'm working all day and I come home and it's like, hi, I'm home. And you're like, I just came from work, had to clean the house, babies ready, this and that. And and it's so I'm I'm so more what about me that I'm forgetting that, hey, you've had a full day yourself, right? And so I don't think we knew how to communicate that early. I think just our unmet expectations just, you know, really cause more frustration. And then now your perspective of the other person changes, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:08

Yeah, I think too, um, you mentioned, you know, those unmet expectations. There's a lot of expectations that we have going into a relationship that have absolutely nothing to do with that person that we're going into a relationship with. And I, you know, you brought up your mom, you know, to me, your mom was the perfect mom. She was even her personality, she was soft, she was sweet, she was feminine. You know, she worked all day and then she came home, made a perfect, fabulous, delicious meal. You know, the house was clean. Um, and even though, you know, the time that I met her um when we first got together, I just kind of looked at it as like, okay, this is this ain't happening over here. So I'm hoping that this is not the expectation that that he has. And I grew up completely different than you, you know, absolutely broken home, you know, just all this trauma and um a very non-traditional family. And so coming into your space and trying to figure out how we would blend the two. And um, you know, there's a lot of great things about my upbringing, but then there was a lot of trauma and turmoil and trying to um create our new version of what love was gonna look like in our life versus bringing up everything that was from our past, I think took us years to even start to unpack and figure out.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Absolutely. And and I'll and before not to get ahead of ourselves, we're gonna talk about legacy later and how we leave things for our children. We both really lost our mothers really early. Like your mother, you know, um, you know, having a stroke early and not really being able to be in most of your, you know, college and adult life. Yeah. My mom passed it 18 when I was 18. Like you and a cool story is the fact that, you know, um, this is the last woman my mom ever met. And so um, she was scared to death to come to our house, but um, she met her on Easter, Easter Sunday. We brought her brought her home.

SPEAKER_03 13:05

Oh, and bear in mind too, his dad is a pastor. Yes, I'm a PK. His dad is a pastor.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

So a lot of traditional, you know, six foot six. Yes, pretty big man.

SPEAKER_03 13:11

And I was completely terrified. You know, I'm I'm looking at his family, like the perfect family, you know, the mom, the dad, the kids, and you know, they're involved in church and just all these things. And and I just knew that they would look at me and see that, you know, like see through me that that I was from, you know, a home that was just kind of like, you know, just just messed up and broken. And yeah, I was I was intimidated and seeing um how you grew up versus how I grew up, you know, just and even with that, the expectations are different because you're like, oh, he grew up this way, you grew up this way.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

And then we have expectations, not knowing that each of our own families had different traumas that we never even think about, right? Yeah. So we have our own pen, you know, hey, you're this and you're that, because look at what you had, right? And we see this perfectness in different ways, and we're like, or I see the brokenness a certain way, and not really appreciate what could have been behind all that, right? Yeah, but uh, but yeah, I mean, you fact you met my mom, um, and the impression was great, right? Of my mom, you loved her. She absolutely loved you. Her last words to me, literally, like spoken in person, was she told her to take care of my boy, right? So that I always laughed at you.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

He wasn't feeling good that week, and and and she was like, you know, give him some medicine, do this and this, you know. But the very last thing she said when we left to go back to college was take care of my boyfriend.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

And it was almost like a precursor, not even knowing what was gonna happen just a few weeks later. And but I think about that, and I wonder, like, man, had she been in our life, like how those expectations or how like you could have been able to use her as a ally in your life to ask, hey, how, how does this work? How what does this look like? You know, how do I use this in situations? Because she obviously navigated with some well, but I'm pretty sure there were so many issues and troubles she had that, you know, go unspoken, but she learned how to, you know, and that's knowledge that can be passed on, right? I think a lot of times we don't get the knowledge for ourselves, especially when you become a young family, a young in a relationship. We don't get the knowledge of what we need because of the fact that we don't ask questions or the right upbringing for us doesn't happen. We're gonna dive into that when it comes to the case.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

And a lot of times it doesn't feel like a safe environment to ask questions.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, oh for sure.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

You feel like everybody else has it figured out and you're the only one that doesn't know.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah. So and you got all this information that I don't have, right? So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

Just trying to make it work and and you know, fit in and and do what you can when you can.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Yeah. So so let's switch a little bit. So I think you got some fun little statistics about uh relationships. So I'm gonna so as we celebrate the you know, month of love, right? So uh so let's talk about some fun statistics that uh hopefully challenge us to to get better in how we love.

SPEAKER_03 15:43

Okay, okay. All right. So the internet says um couples who express appreciation regularly report higher relationship satisfaction. So, how do you feel like we're doing, I guess, in this season of expressing those things to each other?

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Yeah, I think um I would give us like an A now, you know. I'd probably say in the beginning relationship, we probably got an A to as well because then you're in that butterflies and like, oh, I love you, you love me, and you you like I said, we give. Just imagine how the beginning of a relationship, if that's what it was like the whole time, right? So I think sometimes we once we get in the relationship and things start settling, we we lower our expectations because it's like, oh, we got the goods now, we got what we wanted, you know, the got the woman, got the perfect, got all the stuff, and then we don't continue to keep that person with the stuff we were doing before.

SPEAKER_03 16:30

And our expectations, I think, of the other person grows. So it's almost like you don't realize it, but you end up doing less than what you were doing before, and you're expecting that person to do more to either stay at the same level of quality or do more.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

For sure.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

And you get you get highly disappointed.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Yeah. So I I've seen the big difference in how I appreciate you now. Um, your season's different now, like I said, as a traveling back and forth for work. I don't get to see you for, you know, sometimes four or five days, you know, three, three, four days a week, right? And so in the other three or four were together. So I think that I appreciate our time a little bit more. Yeah, but I want to make sure that where it used to be, you would make sure the house was clean, everything is needed. I make sure when you walk in the door from all the stuff you're doing, we're both very busy now, right? But I am home. So I can take care of the home to make sure that it's a little bit easier for you when you get home. Now, here's the thing. Let me not get twisted. Like the fact that it's an empty nester house is a little bit easier for me to kind of take care of one person, right? And the dogs, that's all. But uh, but but besides that point, right?

SPEAKER_03 17:26

It's like my season of taking care of the house is a little bit harder, but that's all right.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

It's about the gesture, right? Like you have clean dishes, right? Yeah, you don't have to come back and do my dishes. You don't have to take out, you know, dirty, do all well, you still do laundry, you know. I think you and here's the thing.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

I like to do laundry. I like to do it.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

I purposely I get to purposely leave the laundry because if I do the laundry and she's like, she's gonna so anyway. He's gonna mess something up. Yeah, so I let her, but but I think that those those small gestures of appreciation that you feel actually go a long way because then now we can enjoy each other, um, less arguments. Um, I think that there's a sense of peace that's around the house. Because let's be real, when you come home, you come home stressed, right? And my expectation used to be is you come home and it's like, I'm home, you're home, I'm here. Why are you stressed? Like you should play it all, you know. But it's not reality. We always there's two expressions when you go to work, you don't bring work home, right? Or you don't bring home to work. But that's literally impossible because you are a human being, right? So now when I think that when I uh make the house to a place where you can transition the right way, yeah, it allows for you to be able to, you know, be who you need to be. And I think those little appreciation things go a lot further. And I wish I would have known that through some more stressful times because it's it's about serving the other person, right? Yeah, and versus being served yourself.

SPEAKER_03 18:40

So yeah, I think we really could have had a better partnership over a long stretch of our marriage during those really stressful seasons, you know, a season when we have small children and we both always worked. You know, there was rarely a time period where I got to be a you know stay-at-home mom, or you know, you were never a stay-at-home dad. And so we both were carrying the same load outside of work a lot of times. So many times we were managers, leaders. So we were carrying all of that outside of work, and then we both would come home empty. And the other person's looking at you like, all right, where's mine? Exactly. And I didn't have anything left. You didn't have anything left.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Right.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

And we're both just, you know, left trying to figure that out.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

So listen to this guy. Listen, this is real life stuff. Like, it's not about the butterflies, all the good love. Like, there's a lot of challenges that happen in relationships. It's just, you know, it's not always gonna be here. Yeah. So so the thing is, it's not about, hey, you know, are you gonna have challenges? How do you get through them? You know, knowing that you're not alone, knowing that other people go through these things, normalize it. Like, normalize trauma, normalize the fact that you're gonna have rough seasons. I think that people can digest it a little bit easier if they know that, hey, this is part of the journey. Yeah, but I think Michelle Obama actually said this very well. She was like, she take, you know, hey, those five to 10 years that maybe weren't as good for the 30 to 40 that she knows is gonna be amazing. Those are some good odds, right? Yeah. And I think that if we really think about relationships long term that way, you we get better commitment out of it.

SPEAKER_03 20:05

So yeah. Um, so another of the statistics said small daily acts of kindness matter more than grand romantic gestures. And I think we kind of talked about that a little bit. Um, another one, most couples argue more about communication than finances or intimacy. So what do you think about communication and you know the effect that it has on love and a long-lasting love?

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Yeah, I think that really every, you know, everything extends from communication. Like whether it's spouse, whether it's kids, whether it's coworker, boss, whatever, like communication probably starts all arguments, I think. Because there's somebody that is uh having an unmet expectation, right? And then a lot of times where the miscommunication also extends more is the other person's not hearing them, right? And so hearing is actually the biggest communication gift that we have. Because if I'm communicating something to you and I'm not responding how you need me to, then immediately now we're at odds, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

And this is the thing. I think everyone thinks that the not arguing means that you have to agree. And I think that's where you know miscommunication gets worse because when you have to agree all the time, we're two different people.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

You feel suffocated, you feel like you are not you know, you're not able to be yourself. And what's worse than being in a relationship? Absolutely, and you feel like that person's not even in a relationship with you, you know. I I feel like every human seeks to be loved, known, and understood. Absolutely, you know, and when you have those things from a partner, you feel like that is your partner. You are fully accepted for who you are, absolutely, and they're able to love you for who you are, not the version that they want you to be.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Absolutely. So then we talked about the other things intimacy, um, finances, right? Like all that extends from some type of communication breakdown. Yeah. And so, so really, and they say, That's the reason the number one thing for divorce is that is that is unreconcilable differences, the actual not the communication issue. And again, because it extends to everything else. Well, if we get the communication right, I think that all the other tough things, because finances are a tough subject, right? Intimacy is a tough subject. Here's the thing like there are gonna be seasons where we're more intimate. There's gonna be seasons where it's gonna be a little dry, you know.

SPEAKER_03 22:21

And so and and then you also have to define intimacy. You know, intimacy is not just the physical aspect, but a lot of it also starts from emotional.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

For the men out there, all right. I want you to say that one more time. Listen, men, what she just said was gold, right? One more time.

SPEAKER_03 22:39

Intimacy is not always physical. I think um, you know, with with women, you know, I know we're not really diving into this subject, you know, right now. It's just but um, but for women, you know, intimacy starts long before the bedroom, you know, it starts with us feeling loved, understood, desired, not desired just for our bodies, but desired for, you know, our mind, our our soul, our spirit, the things that we add to the world, you know, the who we are as an individual and not just what you know what we can what we can give, you know?

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Yeah, for sure. And look, listen, trust me, that is important. So don't think that we we we can dive a little bit more because I think one of the things, you know, that we uh mess up is the fact that this talk is not talked about in relationships, right? Sex is taboo, intimacy is taboo, don't touch, you know, society has made it to be something different, and God really made it to be created between husband and wife to enjoy, to enhance relationships. So the thing when you don't have intimacy and you don't have sex, then it does cause a big strain. But where does it start with communication? So you just properly communicate it. Hey, as a woman, I need to be, you know, romance before we get to the physical act, right? So what does that look like? You know, acts of service, right? Whatever your lung legs are. You're you love acts of service when people are able to do that. Now you're starting to change a little bit. You like the you know, gifts and certain things, start physical touches a little bit more for you now.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

Um and I think you brought that up. Um, uh, Gary Chapman talks about, you know, the love languages and those change in different seasons. Yeah, you constantly have to revisit your partner and have these conversations about what matters to them in that season. Yeah. You know, when I was a mom with young kids, acts of service was huge. I was exhausted, especially when I went back to school to get my master's degree. And I was also, you know, leading a center of over a hundred students and all these staff members that were counting on me. Um, and then coming home and feeling like I just had to make it work and survive another day. Acts of service was all I thought about. You know, that's how I gauged your love for me, is what you were able to do to lift my load and and you know, make it a little bit easier. But now in this season, you know, acts of service is nice, but it's just not as needed or desired, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 25:01

Um, and you know, words of affirmation are great for me in this season. You know, I love to know that you still love me, you appreciate me, that you see me, that you understand, you know, who I am, where I'm coming from, and that we're on the same page about those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

And let me expand it because here's the thing about that too, as well. You communicated that with me. We had a conversation about, hey, babe, like this is what it used to be. So I know you're trying in this area. And I really appreciate the fact that you appreciated me for trying in that area. Yes. Because it wasn't the fact that because I was lacking in those areas, other areas that you had changed, you told me. So I was able to refocus it. So, women, all right, communicate with your husband when you change. It's okay. We do not read minds, you know. We never were right right. I don't care how long you've been together, right? You don't just never because there's like, oh, I can finish each other's sentences. That's fine and all, but what does it matter? I can't read your mind, right? Yeah, so so if something changes, you know, communicate that because your husbands want to do better, we want to serve, but we can't read the mind and we can't do anything if we're not told. So I appreciate you in that season telling me. I think that's what we've gotten better is our communication, because it really has helped us in our latter years of our marriage.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

Yeah. And I think with the communication, you have to have a space that allows for vulnerability and honesty, because there were seasons in our life where we were just so introspective. We are constantly thinking about our own needs and our own wants. And I, and I think again, because we started a family young, because we both got into leadership in our mid-20s, we just had an undue amount of pressure that was not sustainable for anyone. And it certainly wasn't sustainable for a young marriage. So, you know, you also have to just be realistic about, you know, your what you can and can't handle. And I think for us, you know, over the years, obviously, because we we had so much on us uh younger, you know, now thank God we we made it through those seasons. Thank God we learned through those seasons and we became better people. But now it's almost more enjoyable to be married because we we have the fun stuff and the good stuff without all of the extra pressure.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Yeah, yeah. Pressure bursts pipes and also causes divorces in marriage. So yes. Um, anymore. So to take sex to the fourth one.

SPEAKER_03 27:17

Okay, so it says shared laughter is strongly linked to a long-term relationship stability. We laugh a lot, we do. And I mean, I I feel like we actually are best friends, and we've been best friends for I'm yeah, so sweet.

unknown 27:35

That's so sweet.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

Um and but just like with best friends, right? One minute, one minute you're on the same page, the next minute you're ready to pull your hair out because you feel like that person doesn't understand and you're expecting them to.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

But that's also pressure, like when you become really close and best friends and those type, like that is a lot of pressure because expectations like exactly, you know. And so sometimes you have to kind of dumb those down a little bit and realize that wait a minute, she's also human, right? He's also human. And I think that human aspect, like when we put each other on a pestle so much in relationships that we forget there's a human aspect of that person. Nobody's gonna be perfect. And the closer somebody is to your bubble, um, you know, I love Darius Daniels because his book, um, you know, Relational Intelligence talks about this, about putting people in buckets. And the closer that person is to your inner inner circle, the more expectation. Because also, too, they actually know everything about you. You release everything to them. And so you have an expectation that they should carry the weight with you. And there's some things that I just can't carry the weight from, you know. Sometimes you need extra counseling, right? We need marriage counseling, which by the way, we've had marriage counseling, which has been amazing in our relationship. Go to marriage counseling, go to personal counseling, whatever, because you as a person, you want to better yourself. I become a better person.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

For sure. You know, yep. You always want to see what's next for yourself and where you can go to your next level. And your best version individually is always gonna make for the best version of you guys helpful.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

100%. So uh, so thank you for those fun facts, girl. I appreciate that. So um, we're gonna switch gears a little bit, we're gonna talk about choosing love daily, right? Because love is a choice. Um, I think sometimes, you know, we think about love and we're like, you know, it's supposed to be automatic, you know, it's like it just comes with it. You better love me. You should love me because the fact that I'm your husband, you're my wife. But the person you actually have to choose it, right? And the choice is not necessarily because of what you think. I think the choices are based off your actions, right? And so let's talk about that. What does choosing love look like on an ordinary day for you?

SPEAKER_03 29:38

I think our best days start with intentionality from the moment we wake up. So there's um a lot of small things I think that we do throughout the day to stay connected. One of the biggest things that I feel sets our day up to uh successfully individually as well as a couple is praying together. There's days when we're rushed and we're, you know, we just have our own stuff going on and we kind of just both don't have time. We go our separate ways. We're getting up too way too early and it's chaotic and the chaos continues throughout the whole day.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

What's the saying? A couple that prays together, stay together, right?

SPEAKER_03 30:14

So and then there's those days where we we wake up, we pray, we kind of set our day, we set our mindset and we set intentionality for what we want the rest of you know, those eight, nine, 10 hours to look like before we come back together. And I feel like having um that spiritual connection as well as that level of spiritual intimacy with one another allows us to really, you know, just kind of set the rest of the tone for our day. And it goes much better every single time.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Yeah. So so that's the ordinary days, right? But you can have some, like you said, crazy days, some pressure packed days and things, again, pressure burst pipes, right? We used to say, but you know, how do stress, you know, leadership pressures, responsibility, like, you know, how does that test the relationship? And how does that, what does that look like when when in those seasons of love?

SPEAKER_03 31:07

Yeah. I mean, obviously all those things, you know, test the relationship, everything that goes on outside of the home, most of the time can't just be left out of there, right? Because as you come into the home, you're still having to process, you're still having to think about, all right, what did happen today? You know, where did I go wrong? Where did I misstep? And what do I need to figure out for tomorrow? So I think a lot of times our mind is still busy with the outside stuff when we come inside, and we need to get better at communicating with our significant other so that they understand that it's not personal. Because sometimes you can, you know, snap on somebody or you can, you know, have that um demeanor that you're you're not fully present. And I think allowing yourself to really communicate and be honest with that person and say, hey, you know, I'm not in the best mood right now. Maybe I can't give you 100%. Maybe I can only give you 50. And this is why. And a good partner will will pick up the slack or they'll remind you who you are because there's times where you feel defeated, you know, you haven't had a good day at work or or you haven't um been able to accomplish those things that you know you were supposed to or that you're capable of. And to have that person that's got your back that says, you know what, it's okay. It's there's gonna be another day tomorrow, and you've you've rocked all the rest of your days, like today. Yeah, let's just let's just throw that in the wash and just say, oh well, yeah, and let's start over tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Absolutely. And I think there's a key word that comes with that grace, right? Because I think we don't give each other grace as you know, husband and wife enough. Because again, and it goes both ways, like for the person that is coming in with all their pressure hanging on there and expecting the other person to just be able to carry the weight. Like you need grace for that person not understanding how to in that moment. They need processing time, but then also too to the spouse that has to receive it, like understanding that that person may not be at their best in that moment. A lot of times, if we see a stranger that's in need, like that needs money. I mean, sometimes, you know, we may have the articular modes in my mind, but for most days, we may see, like, hey, someone's in need, we usually give grace to that person. I think we had an example where we were just at a restaurant, right?

SPEAKER_03 33:14

Yeah. So the other day we're at a restaurant and um it was just such a perfect picture of grace that I felt like God, you know, give gave me that revelation. But we're going into this restaurant, and if you can imagine, it's almost like a T-shaped entrance where there's a door coming this way, but then uh from the out from the inside out, and then there's the two outside doors that are coming to the middle to be able to walk into the restaurant. Well, there's this couple, a gentleman in a wheelchair, and his, you know, his his spouse, girlfriend, whoever is trying to pay the bill, but the wheelchair is blocking the entrance. So we couldn't get in. Um, but of course, we see the wheelchair. So we're like, oh my goodness, you know, like let's sit here, let's wait. No, you're fine. Don't worry about us. You know, the the the wife was um, you know, just kind of feeling a little flustered, and and I could tell she felt bad that she's blocking the entrance, you know. But we're like, no, we're in no hurry. Absolutely, you're fine, you're good. And then that other couple came through the opposite entrance, but their view was blocked. So they could not see why we were taking so long to walk in. And the other lady started getting frustrated with me. She's like, um, excuse me, can I just get past you? I'm just trying to go in. And I got that picture of grace. You know, there's seasons in our life where we're that couple that needs grace. We're the couple that's like, hey, we're carrying a lot of baggage right now. Like we're we're in a hard season of our life. And then there's those seasons where we get to give the grace because we see, oh no, this is happening. Like, let's let's be kind, let's be mindful. We we feel good about being a good citizen. But then what about all those times where we're the people that are waiting and frustrated and don't understand? And we don't give the grace. Yeah, you know, and I think there's times in our life where we've done all three. We've received it freely, we've given it freely, but there's plenty of times where we miss the mark and we have to have grace for others when they're in that place too.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

And I think what happens is blind spots, right? Like when you don't know it's around the corner, you don't know what to do next. And that's why we have this podcast because we're revealing those blind spots literally right now. Because, you know, when we don't know something, then um we're gonna go into something in the dark. And a lot of times when you're shuffling in the dark, you don't know what you're gonna hit or how it's gonna work out. You just hope you're gonna come out on the other side. But one of the key words is wisdom is proven by its results. So this is a podcast to shed light on some wisdom, some seasons we've had to learn some things so that we can talk to in the open because we want to shed light on these subjects so that people feel prepared so they don't have as many blind spots going in marriage. You don't have any blind spots going into relationships because that's the key part. We talked about earlier, you know, hey, how do you uh feel right now and how do you feel later, right? Well, there's so many blind spots in between that it's gonna change your view. But if we can shed light on that, it's like that journey becomes lit on the way. So now you can see where you're going. I think it provides a lot better place for a relationship to be. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

And sometimes you just have to focus one step at a time. And you're putting one foot in front of the other, and you can only see what's in front of you in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:19

And that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

We've walked a lot of steps, girl. 25 years? That's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 36:24

That's a long time.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

That's a long time. That's like half a that's a quarter of a year. Yeah. So I think we're gonna make 50.

unknown 36:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

We're gonna make 50. So yes, God willing. Yeah. Um, so let's kind of, you know, switch subjects a little bit here. And, you know, I'm gonna, I wanna, I wanna pose some questions to the, you know, our guests. So they can kind of think about it and, you know, in this Valentine's Day season, kind of just, you know, hey, let me do some internal work, right? And I think what when you do internal work and you can ask yourself questions about where you are, you can self-reflect and get honest answers, right? But it's got to be intentional, right? So, where might you be expecting your partner to read your mind instead of you know inviting conversation? We kind of talked about that, right? We're not mind readers. And so, like, you know, what can we do better to make sure that we're communicating open? Where are those areas that you can communicate a little better so that your spouse, your significant other, your girlfriend, boy, like they can actually understand better what you need or what expectations you have.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

And spend time actually figuring out what that is if you're the type of person like me that goes, goes, goes. Sometimes I don't even know how to answer the question. When you say, you know, what's wrong or what do you need in this season? Sometimes I can't answer it.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:34

So I need to sit still long enough to figure it out so that I can bring you in on it. And um, and then that way you can better support me.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Yeah, absolutely. All right. Next question, right? Don't you guys look at this? What is one intentional act of love can you practice this week, right? Just one. You just you don't imagine how that one moment could just change everything in your spouse's week, right? You know, so sometimes we don't always, again, even though the spouse we're supposed to know everything or be able to talk to you about everything, sometimes we still hold things back, right? And so it's sometimes the other person's love is the other person's care that unlocks what we need, unlocks the communication. We're like, man, thank you for that, because I was really struggling with this. I'll be honest, there's years and years where I struggled with my internal stuff and didn't know how to come to you, right? I grew up in a house over there. We didn't talk about nothing, right? Like nothing was on the table for our subjects. We just lived our house, our life, and what happened at home, stayed at home, and we just compartmentalized everything, right? And there was no space to really expound to talk about, hey, what about this? What about this feeling? And so I brought that into my marriage where frustration happened or I didn't know how to handle something and you were in the dark completely. But I was just giving you frustration. Like so, everything you brought to me, what came out was frustration because I didn't know how to communicate, right?

SPEAKER_03 38:53

And so just I think I've learned over time how to also be a better listener because you can you can you can help bridge that gap with your partner, even if they're not a good communicator, if you become a better listener. Yeah, and then you know, in your in your strong moments or when in their weak moments, you can be strong and vice versa. And that's part of partnership, that's part of having each other's back.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

And you know what something you just said, like in those moments that you can be a better listener, sometimes listening is not always about a voice. So I'm speaking. Sometimes listening is body language, yeah, or like or actions, you know, then non-verbal act, like what's if I'm just not saying anything, right? Then okay, something's wrong, right? Yeah. And if you just actually like, oh, he just, you know, even non-communication is communicating. It is communication, absolutely, right? So I know that when you get quiet, okay, there's something wrong. And I mean, again, like you said, maybe I don't press and pull it out you, but maybe if I just start doing, like I said, intentional actions of love, then that could start, you know, bridging a gap to where openness happens, right?

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Yeah, it creates a safe place, a safe space for for that person to land when they need it the most.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Okay. And one more practical thought here is like what would change if ordinary moments became opportunities for connections. I mean, every day is an opportunity for a new moment of connection. Like I think a lot of times we wake up and do the same thing day after day after day, especially when you have to have routine, like when you have kids that go to school, your Monday through Friday is packed with that, going to work, picking up school, doing homework, doing this. You're so tired that the weekend comes, you don't feel like doing anything. So you stay home, you just survive, and then you do it all over again, right? So you can get into these routines and it become ordinary. But what if we disrupt that, right? What if we start doing intentional things in between? Like, what opportunities connection could happen? Like, um, I feel like we did something called 50 First Dates, right? Uh, we created this group on Facebook that, you know, it had, you know, lots of followers. Shout out to all my 50 First Daters that are watching this right here. And so, but um, we we we went to be intentional and we said, you know, now I'm gonna be intentional, we're gonna put it out there, like for people to see the whole display. Sometimes you need accountability. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

For sure. You need accountability in your life to follow through on the things that you say you want.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

And doing 50 dates throughout the year, that's that's that's tough. That's not easy, right? And so you have to be intentional about planning it. Some weeks and some months we were great at it, some months we're like, you know, we but then we was like, oh, we gotta catch up, right? And so uh, but I think over that decade that we were been doing it, I think we've got it for so much straight.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

And I mean, it just one year after another after another, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Yeah, 10 years. I definitely think our connection got stronger like throughout that time. So so again, intentional moments, like those one little things that can happen that can just really change a lifetime of things in your marriage, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

Um, I think as we close out, I just wanted to touch uh briefly on legacy, you know, the legacy of love. Like how do we ensure that we're um that we're showing our kids and maybe those that that follow us what that looks like and how do we continue to have that mindset of paying it forward? So, what are your thoughts on that when it comes to leaving a legacy?

SPEAKER_01 41:57

Man, legacy is important because one, you know, the Bible talks about a wise man leaves an inheritance, you know, and it's for his children. And it's like, you know, inheritance children. It's children's children, right? But I think a lot of times we confuse inheritance with just financial, right? Inheritance is everything, you know, like what character did I, you know, leave behind? What, you know, what attributes did I leave behind as far as like even traditions, yeah, right? Traditions. Like, I mean, uh, the things that we've set up over time that have kept our family together and our kids coming back. I love our Christmas traditions and Thanksgiving traditions and the and the and the things that we built there. But I think that, you know, it's gotta be intentional, right? And it's gotta start early because what happens is we wait too late and our kids start into their habits and things. And then before you know it, they're 18, it's like we try to, oh my God, I gotta rush all this stuff and teach them all this stuff before they leave the house. And I don't want to, you know, I didn't want my kids, my son and my daughter specifically, to wait that long. Like we started putting things and had conversations early with them, and they'd have no idea what we're talking about, right? We get all these concepts and they're like, again, are we talking about this again? But looking at them and how independent they are now, it's just it's seeing all the work that we did, you know, like the Bible talks about training a child on the way that it should go. When they grow old, they won't depart. And what that means is when they grow old, so that means that it's a process. They're not gonna get it when they're, you know, five, six, seven, eight, ten years old, 13, 14. But the hope is is when they're out there in the world, you know, they've, man, those things sunk into them, you know. So I think that, you know, leaving a legacy really starts with, you know, your intentionality. Yeah. And and I think uh love and how we love each other as a husband and wife, it bridges the open door for their relationships, which is hopefully is going to be a big part of their uh life. And you, I want you to talk about a little about that.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

Um, no, I I a quote that I saw at some point um came to my mind. And I I don't remember exactly how it goes, but the gist of it was uh that lessons are better uh caught, not taught, something to that effect. And I feel like um love is like that when you're trying to leave that legacy for your kids, you know. it's it's gonna go a longer way for them to see it in action, to see what love looks like versus just, you know, talking about it. You know, more most people plan, spend more time planning their wedding than they ever do their marriage. And your marriage supposedly is till death to you part. You know, that's a whole lot of planning that you should be doing over the next, you know, 50, 60 years, depending on how long you plan on living.

SPEAKER_02 44:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:28

And we don't do that. You know, we we spend a whole lot of money and time on one day to say I do, but we're leaving out the whole part of the rest of our life.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:39

And, you know, I I hope with us, the things that we left, a legacy that we left for our children to have watched when they were in our home was that people mess up, people are not perfect. Um people need to have a healthy individual life so that they can be healthy as a couple and that love and grace and forgiveness is the only thing that's going to guarantee that you can be with that person year after year after year and hopefully make it until death you apart.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

Absolutely. And so we've we've actually you know done a lot of apologizing in our latter years, right, kids where a lot of stuff is like oh my God, we look we're sorry we did that.

SPEAKER_03 45:21

Oh my God, I'm so sorry that we've apologized to each other in front of them and we've apologized to them.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Yeah. So but again that's that that's the act I think is intentional so they understand that how they're okay to make mistakes. Absolutely so so I think that and it takes pressure off too as well because when you don't go know things going into a relationship or whatever you do, you feel a lot of pressure because you feel like you got to be perfect. And if also too if you have successful parents and you don't know what it took to be get that place, then a lot of times that pressure is going to go directly onto the kids. And so when they mess up, they're like, oh I'm a failure right but when they see your failures when they see the things that it took to get to a place I believe that they then can give themselves grace in trying to get to the place they're going to be and then allows for us not to put pressure on them too as well. So yeah absolutely so um a little bit more on legacy I think you know one thing I want to ask you before we close out you know what does faithfulness you know communicate more than words can I think faithfulness is all about being in it for the long game.

SPEAKER_03 46:18

So it's about you know taking one step at a time each day and getting back up even when you fail, even when you make mistakes even when things are not how you thought they were going to be but a love that lasts is a love that's definitely worth fighting for.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Absolutely. And the thing is that's that's legacy. You know legacy is not something that's quick um it's long term is something is setting an example day by day is leaving footprints so somebody can follow right um if you're not if you're not someone's five following you like I said you're just taking a walk right and so but I think you know our first legacy has to be in our household right to each other as husband and wife and then our children. And so and then if we do that well I think then we can go outside the house and then help others. And and also too you know God wants our example of the family. He created the family to be the example of his perfect love right your children. Like he wanted that to be the example. And unfortunately in society there are so many broken homes. So I think that broken love is very easy to see and it goes through our society. And that's why you have such a high divorce rate or so many single parent households or even just trauma dealing with children growing up. And then a lot of times they're like, I don't want to get married. Why would I want to deal with all that stuff you know if you have to deal with that right. And so uh so again, you know, we just wanted to bring a little light and this Valentine's Day, you know, about love, you know, and how that really matters when it comes to what we do every day. Again as husband and wife it matters so much because I think that from what comes from us then goes to our children, our children's children. And then it also it spreads I think you know a example to others like hey that this is worth fighting for you know our love is worth fighting for I'm glad we stuck through it because I've I'd say we've made some of the best years of life but we travel the world together we get to do so many things together. We lead businesses together and my worst day I know when I come home that I got my best friend there for me to make to know that everything's okay. So I appreciate you girl appreciate the 25 years that you put up with me. And I do say put up with me because you put up with a lot with me you know and so uh but I think at the end of the day, you know, we we were good together.

unknown 48:27

So love you baby.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

So again thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Love and Leadership. We want to see you back. We got so many different topics to talk about you guys are gonna absolutely love it. We're gonna get real just like we did right now. And so uh but at the end of the day, you know, hey we've got to do this together right we're not doing this separate we're in this together. So again thank you so much for joining us again on the Love and Leadership podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode but until next time make sure you love well lead with purpose and steal it with matters